63. The Fatherhood Gap: How Supporting Dads Strengthens Families with Tom & Kate Docking

Becoming a parent can be an incredibly isolating experience, not just for mums, but for dads too. And yet, dads are often left out of the perinatal conversation. In this episode of Honey, We Need to Chat, Amy and Blair sit down with Tom and Kate Docking, founders of Dad’s Group and Man with a Pram, to explore why fatherhood support is a missing piece in family wellbeing, and how building community changes everything.

What we cover:

• The surprising origins of Man with a Pram and how it’s grown into a global movement.

• Why isolation hits dads just as hard as mums, and what helps.

• The hidden impact of birth trauma and vicarious trauma on fathers.

• How supporting dads strengthens the whole family.

• Real talk about marriage, communication, and building a village that lasts.

Whether you’re a new parent, a partner, or someone passionate about community, this conversation will inspire you to think differently about connection, fatherhood, and family support.

👉 Learn more: dadsgroup.org | manwithapram.com

👉

👉 Watch & subscribe on YouTube: Honey We Need to Chat
👉 Follow us on socials + join the conversation: @honeyweneedtochat

fatherhood support, dad’s mental health, perinatal wellbeing, parenthood isolation, man with a pram, dads group, communication in relationships, marriage podcast, parenting podcast, men’s mental health, new parents support

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Becoming a parent can be an incredibly isolating experience
for moms and dads alike and unfortunately there's a big gap
in the system of support around fatherhood.
You will have heard us talk about Man with a Pram and Dad's
group here on the podcast a number of times because we work
with Dad's group and it's an initiative we're incredibly
passionate about. But today we get the honour of
talking to the founders, Kate and Tom Docking about their

(00:21):
journey with Dad's group into parenthood and their journey in
their marriage and things that have helped and bless them along
the way. So in the lead up to Father's
Day, if you are a new parent or you know a new parent, this
episode is for you. We need to chat.

(00:46):
Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of Honey We Need
to Chat, the podcast all about communication and relationship.
We believe when communication dies in a relationship, bad
things happen. So if you're new, welcome, great
to have you. If you're coming back, welcome
back. Great to have you back today.
We're really pumped. We've got a really great
conversation happening today. We've roped in some people to

(01:08):
come in and talk with us. We forced it.
He's our boss, but we made him do this.
Yeah. You would have heard us talking
about Man with a pram over the last few weeks on the episode.
And you've also probably seen Blair rapping Dad's group in Man
with a Pram the entire podcast life.
So today we have founders of Dad's group, Tom and Kate
Docking, joining us. And they're gonna share a little

(01:29):
bit about their story. They're gonna share about Man
with a Pram, what that is a little bit more.
They're gonna share about Dad's group and the heart behind it
and what's important in this space and just about them and
their lives. So thank you for joining us
today, guys. Thank.
You for having us? I'm nervous.
We. It's kind of hunting behind.
All the programmes but this is scary.
So lately, Tom, we've been really, well, a lot of us have

(01:52):
been forcing Tom to do a lot more.
Yeah, social presence and communication presence.
And it's, he's just like so comfortable there.
He absolutely loves it and just.He's doing.
So well, though, he's doing so. Is I gave him a call yesterday
afternoon and just to say, like,we've just seen such a increase
in a willingness to do it and the impact has changed.

(02:13):
And we talk a lot about on this in this space about telling the
story and telling our story and taking people on that journey
with us. And so we've just seen that
change in that impact from you doing that, Tom.
So I just want to start just by saying, well done, because I
know you're really stepping out of your comfort zone to do that.
And the results are showing. You know, people are really
resonating with what you're doing.
And it might seem little from your side, but we see it on the

(02:35):
other side where it's actually, yeah, great stuff's happening,
mate, so well done. Thanks Blair.
I did it because my wife called me up and said you gotta do this
and here's and I said text message.
Thank you, make sure you do it. And I'm like okay, I do it
again. Thanks, Kate.
But on that, thanks so much to these guys who are really
leading and guiding us in this space as well.

(02:56):
So we're very grateful for you both.
It's, it's been a, a real gentleprocess of just gently leading
you guys and they're definitely not peer pressure and forcing
you and, and, and force feeding you all the funny reels and
things that we make every week and then making you guys do it.
So I'm glad we got there. I'm just going to say I've got
the black lung at the moment so I'm going to be trying my best

(03:18):
not to cough in the microphone but I've just realised I've done
it like 5 times already. But forgiveness is key.
Just we will cut that out. While they're talking, do that
while they're talking. Is that like, is that one that
one of those marital subconscious directives?
We will cut that out. It's like it's directed to you.
But I say we is like, you know, we will send a lot off now.

(03:40):
We will stop doing that. We will make me a puffy now.
Because she says to our kids allthe time.
This was actually one of our first marital fights was the we.
We will turn. Out the lights and Tom was like
we, we will turn out the lights.You mean you put out of bed

(04:02):
storms over and turn out the light?
He's like. You saw right there.
I remember it's slightly different.
It's a lot more, you know, like I'm just going to curiously
query the concept of the term wewhen maybe you mean would you
know me? Would I do it?
Yeah, yeah. Win.

(04:23):
I love that. I I'm glad you saw through that
because it, I, I used to do thatreally gently.
Well, maybe not so, maybe not sogently.
That would be like, I think. I think we need to work on.
Yeah. Yes.
But then sometimes it was too subtle.
And then I'm like, yeah, we do. We do.
We need to work like, yeah. But see, we have started.

(04:47):
It's a classic. Yeah, it's a classic.
Trying to be gentle and not aggressive and ending up passive
aggressive and in miscommunication.
So we did. We started off by introducing
you guys as Dad's group foundersand obviously we're all wearing
except for Amy, I want to point out.
I don't have any dad's. Group man with a pram.
Yeah we we got like 5. I don't.
Have any? Over there.
I have been given none. We all have our men with a pram

(05:09):
merch on share with us guys. What is man with a pram?
Well, man, with the pram. Well, we were living in Mulla
Mullum Rd in Ringwood and I believe I remember walking
across the road to Eastland withthe pram.
Yeah. Shopping centre.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Eastland and I was pushing
Evie, our first born, our first born.
And I was like, we need to get like this dad's group thing's

(05:32):
kind of good, but we need to getan event.
And I thought, oh, man with the pram, man with it, man with the
man with the pram, that that goes well.
And then I was going to just talk late about it.
And then everything else after the idea was Kate's work.
But yeah, there was that was that spark of the idea, like a
man with a pram, like, oh, that that's cool.

(05:53):
And then we're like, oh, that's a cool way of engaging dads on
Father's Day. Like just push a brand when
you're in that newborn space. It's like Father's Day isn't
like there's not a whole bunch happening.
It's like slow morning, Sunday morning, sitting at home kind of
thing. And we thought, that kind of
goes, well, I know what was your.
And then there's like a 10, 10 month amount of work before the

(06:13):
next big one that we kind of didsome.
Yeah, we, we grew it from that, that first one.
But I think I think also we wereat the really early stages of
Dad's group and running them with the pram with such a great
community initiative to really get like, how do we get the word
out there rather than just saying Dad's group.

(06:33):
It was a great way to get the whole family along.
It was, and even intergenerational family along
grandparents, aunties, uncles, as many as that we could.
It was, it was like a reason to come and and that was in the
start, starting out, that was just a really great initiative
to connect with, a community initiative.
So yeah, connect with. Yeah, and it was out.

(06:54):
It was like we wanted to build our community, right?
Like we were isolated. We weren't super well connected.
Ringwood wasn't out, you know, home for 20 years before that.
We were, you know, we came back from, you know, travel didn't
even get to our travel around the world.
We came back to Ringwood and kind of set up the nest type
thing and like, Oh my goodness, you know, baby's coming.
Not connected. We had mum and dad there and a

(07:16):
bit of family, but it just was, you know, man of the Prem was
something to be excited about inrelation to that transition to
parenting in a way that dads could actually be involved.
And I think we actually just sawpeople get like, Oh, that sounds
cool. And I think when you see other
people resonate with something, you're like, oh, this might,
might be helpful. It might be good.
And then you do it. And then, you know, Eastland got

(07:37):
on board and they're like, oh, we'll give you, we'll give you
this to give away and we'll giveyou that to give away.
And then it just snowballed. And then it got fun.
It got really fun. And then people really behind it
and they're like, you know, whatdo we do here?
And like, we don't know. We're just going for, you know,
let's, let's make, let's all contribute towards mates.
It's really owned by, I guess, the parents in the community
that got involved. Yeah, that's so cool.

(07:58):
Yeah, and and you and for our regulars, you would have heard
us talk a lot about Dad's group amendment, the pram over the
time. But for people that are tuning
in for the first time, you know,with Dad's group, we really
focus on that perinatal period for dads, which is before birth
and after birth. And Tom and Kate, again, we're
just the, the spearhead of that movement of, of bringing that
support to dads because as we know, and as you guys can share

(08:20):
in a bit, it's a very isolated period.
So, you know, man, with the pramis was really great to kick off
that movement and that awarenessto bring into that space of
like, hey, dads, you don't have to do this alone.
Isolation for mums as well in the in that period, period is so
normal and common. We just don't talk about it
much. So that's a big part of Mammy,

(08:41):
the pram and dad's group there. And so for you guys, for Tom and
Kate, like how what was the response for participants or
people when you started sharing about this?
Did they get it straight away orwas it something that grew over
time or what? Yeah, I think the first thing I
remember is like Kate's mum's group was kind of the, the, the
space where this kind of started.

(09:02):
Like it was, you know, Kate was like, I'll get together with
some of the dads from mums group.
And that was really good. And that was really helpful for
me. I, I was probably on reflection,
going through a lot more panics and anxiety than I thought I
probably would have been, you know, had a, a big kind of fake
smile on the outside and not just probably not even being
aware of what's going on in the inside.
Not even. So it wasn't that I was trying
to hide it, but I just wasn't actually aware of how

(09:24):
disconnected I was. So the man with the pram, you
know, as Kate said, getting grandparents involved, My mom
and dad are just there and they'd walked down from
Ringwood, Easton and come and walk with us.
And it was, I don't know, I think for for us, people were
just like, oh, that sounds fun. And I think probably Tom for
Guernis and his family would have been the first ones to line

(09:45):
up and join us and have a coffee.
And, you know, it's just you start talking to people like,
man, there's nothing for dads. It's like, you know, we'd be so
advanced in our research and perinatal, you know, frameworks
and maternal child health frameworks and child well being
frameworks and have literally left dads out of all of all of

(10:06):
all of this. It's it's almost like until
someone calls it, it's just completely forgotten.
And then all of a sudden you guys being like, hey, what about
this made people be like, Oh yeah, wow.
Yeah. Because it was, it was the same
with me when I started hearing about Dad's group because I, I
saw stuff on Facebook like yearsand years and years ago about it
just because of the community wewere connected with that were

(10:27):
connected with you guys. And I was, I thought, Oh my
gosh, that's so true. And like, we'd gone through
maternal child health stuff and they always kind of had this
open invite to dads. And one dad rocked up to one of
our, one of our sessions and he was, I mean, he must have felt
so uncomfortable. But I remember talking to you
and just being like, did you want to come?
And you're like, I don't know, did dads go?

(10:48):
And I was like, not really. And that was kind of the extent
of it. It wasn't.
It just wasn't like on the radaruntil it gets called out and
then all of a sudden it just makes so much sense that it's a
missing piece. But until it's called out, it's
kind of hidden weirdly. Yeah, I think on that isolation
point, like for me, I was in my hometown, had friends from
primary school around, but none of them were in motherhood.

(11:10):
So I was feeling the isolation as well.
Just I had, you know, friends were at uni and you know, living
life and I was at home with a baby.
So that connection with the mom's group was a big helped me
suggest it to Tom. Just going, I know we know
people, but these people are in our season.

(11:32):
And I think I found in the earlyyears when we were sharing about
dad's group, you had to extreme do they had like people go what
like they just didn't get it or they or they were like, Oh yeah,
that's that's cool. That makes sense.
So it was a really diverse response to the initial
initiative, but I actually foundthe more I shared about it with

(11:55):
mums, the better almost teamworkthey had towards their partner
in those early years. Mums could really nitpick, I
guess, And then bringing this inchanged a real dynamic to being
a team and being a community together.
It just, it really changed the trajectory of our group and our

(12:19):
community. Yeah, so.
True. I think it's really important
because you've got this. The culture of your mums group
or your daddy's group can go either way you know can go.
You can spiral quickly down intotoxic discussions that aren't
really helpful, or it can just be uplifting.
But also that balance between genuine and authentic, like

(12:40):
sharing the messy stuff, but notsharing it in a way that's not
going to be helpful, I guess, because helpful conversations,
as we know, are not not nice conversations often, but they
are helpful. And I think that's, that's
something that I've kind of reflected on and gone well, it's
not a good and a bad comp thing.We don't want to make it binary,
but is it, is it going to be helpful?
And how can this be helpful for all the people that are part of

(13:03):
the, the authenticity or the piece that I'm sharing?
That's a messy piece, you know, and I think that's, as Kate's
sharing with, with mums, it justhelps us to be the best version
of ourselves, I think. Yeah, we talk a lot about
curiosity on this podcast. And I think that was one, one
part of those early days of parenthood that was missing a
little bit because there's there's clear kind of surface

(13:24):
level results, which is my partner is not picking up the
slack. He's not engaged in parenthood,
he's not doing this stuff and I have to do all this stuff.
And like that surface level frustrations, which it makes
sense because it's it's you're already isolated, you're
exhausted and you're carrying the burden and your partner
seemingly is just not picking stuff up.
But the curiosity behind it, which was why is he not picking

(13:47):
this stuff up? Does he feel equipped to pick it
up? Did he ever get taught what to
do? Does he feel supported, money
tries or does he feel nitpicked?Like all these things kind of
were missing from that conversation I observed.
And I think probably the reason I observed that at the time was
because Blair was picking up like he was really hands on.
And so when I would like hear these stories, I was kind of

(14:09):
thinking, wow, that's so interesting.
And but he had such a different experience coming into
parenthood where he was taught what to do from an early stage
through the midwives and that kind of thing, just because I
couldn't do them because of how I gave birth.
So it was really interesting to observe those things.
But that I think that's what Dad's group brings.
And what you're talking about, Tom, is it's not things aren't
easy and light. So we're not going to pretend
like everything's fine and then wash over the difficult things.

(14:31):
We don't want to do that. But but there's also a balance
between just being this kind of echo Chamber of toxicity or
frustration or, or, you know, the surface level results of
what's going on or being a groupthat can be curious and bring
out those questions and look into what might be sitting
behind things or what might be going on.

(14:52):
And when dad's group comes on the picture, you can see very
clearly, like we said with that,aha, what's missing from a dad's
initial experience into parenthood that may be
contributing to his engagement with his family or his mental
health or whatever else is goingon.
So I think that's the important piece.
I love that that's one of dad's groups kind of approaches is to
what's the phrase you always say, not excuse the behaviour,

(15:14):
but to normalise, normalise the feelings.
And I think that's really important and and has probably
been one of the most transformational parts of the
whole organisation and the wholeapproach.
Something that I noticed too, like so when when we were going
through with our first born as well, like we there was like
went along to an antenatal classand stuff.
And it's funny when you go through it because what you

(15:36):
experience is the norm. So I think what you mentioned as
well about dad's not stepping into that space, I think
sometimes, a lot of times we need to be invited into that
space as well. So like going along to the
Internet of class, it was like Iwas going along to a mother's
session. Like I wasn't actually going
along to a session where I related to, I'm like, all right,
well, why? Like why am I even here?

(15:57):
There's a bunch of dads that were in that class, but I just
didn't talk to us at all. And we see that.
We see a lot of different thingsthat are coming out about how
we're now changing the name frommaternal to paternal.
So we're focusing on parents, not just mums, but the content
is still all focused on mums. So we go along to that.
And it was just like, why am I even here?

(16:18):
But I didn't actually know what I needed until I needed it, you
know? So for example, we had so first
born was there, I learnt a lot because we had a pretty
traumatic birth for our first born and, and you were out like
genuinely, literally out of it under general.
So the midwives told me everything, but I'm like sick.
All right. So they've equipped me for that.

(16:39):
Now we had our second born. I'm like sick.
We've already had a baby. So it's sort of repeat here.
And then we had our third and itwasn't until we had our third
baby that I crashed. I was, I was broken.
I was like, I was just really, really struggling and it hit me
because I was like, why am I struggling now?
And then it was the question, well, where do I, what do I do?

(17:01):
Like, what do I do in this situation?
Like, I don't know, like is, is this normal?
Like I felt so guilty that and it's strange and stupid
honestly, because I was like, why is no one else struggling
with this? And now working with being
working with Dad's group and andDad's group, even working with
Dad's group has helped me so much more understand that season
that I was in as well is not unique to me.

(17:23):
And that is so how many more experiences out there.
So with with this, like, how have you found like now you've
been going, you know, how long has dad's been Dad's group been
around for about 10 years, Is that right?
10 years and 11. Yeah.
And 11:00 So through that, have you seen a response from dads or
families in regards to like, oh,I, you know, I need this, I want

(17:46):
this. Or like before those burnout
times happen or, you know, difficult times happen.
Or is it something that kind of,is there interest at the
beginning, is my point? Like how is that interest in
regards to getting that support and being in that environment?
Yeah, I like that question because after 10 years and, and
thousands and thousands of people coming through either an

(18:07):
antenatal class or an online class that we've run and the
data that's come through that, the anecdotal stories you hear.
And there's the people that you meet, you've actually got a
pretty good understanding of what their experience is in
relation to your question, whichis how do they respond?
You know, are they seeking that?Do they accept it or do they
reject it? And I think you've got a pretty
good mix of all of those in every, in every space.

(18:30):
You've got people who are like, no, I've got this.
And that's what I was kind of inferring before.
Our self awareness in those early stages of parenting is
actually quite can be quite low.No, it's been my experience.
It's self awareness and knowing,as you said, you know, what are
these feelings? And, you know, we've, we've
grown these coping mechanisms todeal with big feelings.
And then it's not until my 40s I'm starting to unpack that,

(18:52):
validate that use I statements, all these types of things,
right? Which are, you know, really fun
and hard and slow work. But going back to that, that
question around where, where dad's at, you get a really small
percentage who are just like, Yep, this is good.
This is for me, I've got, I wantto be involved in this.
Then you get a percentage who are like, Oh yeah, I get it.
You know, I might come down sometime and that's probably the

(19:13):
majority which, and and they think they might engage, you
know, in the next month or two, but that might be 6 months
before they, they rock up and then you get the other cohort,
which you're like, no, I'm good.I've got this like I'm, I'm
fine. I've got a you know, and, and
interestingly, all I've seen allthree of them come back or re
engage with the programme a yearlater or or so, all with

(19:34):
different experiences again. And some of them going, I had no
idea this. Like it just swiped me and and
now I'm realise I'm dealing withvicarious trauma now going, you
know, I need, I actually need help, you know, and they
actually needed the same help a year ago, but they weren't aware
of it. So it's like providing a space
where you're self paced, you're going, you're slowly looking at

(19:57):
it like men often learn it like the the way they, well, I
believe the way they like to learn is just through observing
and being part of a community group doing things.
And you look at that when you goto like, you know, even the
indigenous cultures and the. Important men's business with
the elders and that type of thing.
And even those hunting trips that we do growing up in in

(20:19):
animal land, there's this sense of like shoulder to shoulder
learning, which is, you know, quite well evidenced.
And I think the principles of that allow dad's group to be a
place where you can rock up and just sit back with a coffee and
just listen to other people talkabout it and then come back next
week and you might be ready to share.
But for 10 years, we've had experiences where guys have
been, I'm good and then floated around the fringe and then, you

(20:42):
know, even some people like Daddy's group.
No, that's yeah, not me. I'm cool.
I'm tough. I'm a, I'm a lumberjack and no
offence to lumberjacks, lumberjacks are able to, they're
just lumberjacks are actually big softies inside.
But they, those people who are not those people, they're
actually us at different stages in our life.

(21:02):
So it's really identifying that we all share these experiences
of not needing help, not wantinghelp, not wanting to be seen to
be helped. And that's why we've kind of
moved to that really great phrase that one of our data
script leaders coined the other day, which is if you don't need
the help, be the help. And it's like this, it's like
today you don't need it or you don't think you need it, but you

(21:23):
can actually be the help by rocking up and being present and
listening to someone or actuallyhaving a chat with someone else,
having a laugh. And you know, when I started
this, someone said community is the therapy.
It's like they call it communotherapy.
So it's like you could go and see a expensive, you know, $250
for 30 minute counsellor or psychologist.
So you can come to dad's group and you can experience

(21:45):
communotherapy in that therapeutic space.
And if you do need more acute expert required needs, you know,
expert required services, then you can go to that.
But it's, it's kind of like thisstaging area of like where am I
at? Where are my kids at?
You know, and that's it's. Kind of like that preventative
really, because it's that if, ifpeople are going to expert help,

(22:07):
which I think a lot of people, you know, culture these days
does, they jump from where they're at to expert help
because they're so isolated. There's so much isolation that
goes on in the world at the moment and especially in this
perinatal period and especially with that.
So if they're if they're feelingisolated and they're going
awesome for expert help and getting that, but the lack of

(22:27):
community is probably a massive piece to that.
So unless that's already something that they've engaged
with and then they still need that help like you've just said,
Tom. But that's exactly what, yeah,
one of the one of the psychologists that I think Tom
for Guernis spoke with, I remember the story back in
Ringwood, he said a lot of the dads that come to me actually
just need to be listened to and they have a birth story or a

(22:50):
birthing story that's been traumatic for them and they're
just debriefing. They don't actually need a
psychologist. Like 60 to 80% of what I give is
can be given by any any listening group of people or, or
just a friend, you know. And so think that and all this
stuff with all that big scientific words actually just
comes back to caring and friendship.
Yeah, and community. And we've straights, we've gone

(23:11):
so far into our future thinking techno kind of expertise and
ivory towers of frameworks. If we just lost that friend,
I've got a friend and I can talkto them and they they listen to
me and I listen to them and I'vegot a community, a bunch of
people that we see, we do life with, and I care for them and
they care for me. If you've got those things,
they're the foundations of what you're talking about.

(23:33):
AME around those the well being piece, the prevention piece, you
know, the you know, stop terrible stuff happening by just
building basic fundamentals of of humanity, you know, and and
enjoy that. Yeah, on that.
You know, birth trauma is like one of the reasons we really
want to see the change in the systems of dads being screened
for mental health when mums are,because it can be even that that

(23:57):
just changes where they're at, you know, that they don't feel
they can debrief. That starts the isolation or the
disconnect. So yeah.
Some of the mums I remember you sharing about, some of the mums
who share about their partners experience.
And like even some of the mums have been surprised their
partners have gone through, you know, a traumatic experience

(24:18):
when they themselves might have perceived the the birthing
experience to be a good one or anormal one.
Yeah, very. Very different sides of the
fence. Yeah, well, I mean, that makes
sense because we're it's anotherblank spot.
I think in the care is the womanhas all this information and
support for the most part. And that's amazing because
you're going through something so physically different to

(24:39):
everything you've ever experienced.
But we're the ones going throughit.
We we haven't experienced, most of us haven't experienced
watching our partner do the samething.
And I can't even imagine that element of it like that must be
so traumatic in its own way, butremoved from the support like
we've said. It's not, not a yeah that my
carriage trauma piece is a really interesting one with dads

(25:00):
because it's it's often not unpacked.
It's often leaves a legacy and you know, of compounding
internalised challenges that have not been worked through.
What we've we've really learnt is that can have a really
detrimental impact on your relationship with your child.
So your connection and bonding with your child can be limited
or your connection and bonding with your partner.

(25:21):
So you can start to drift away from each other, drift away from
your family, fun yourself, really like like imagine the
yuckiness of feeling. I don't want to see my partner
now or I don't want to see my child now, but I don't I feel so
ashamed of that feeling. And I think these are the types
of places where so many people have experienced these feelings
and they don't know the pathway to to resolution or resolve or,

(25:44):
or a better way because they've just got these big, heavy
feelings. And I think the opportunity for
us is to, as Blair, you said, normalise some of these feelings
and help people walk through what is what, what is your goal,
what's your long term outcome? Because whilst you you might not
be able to see, you know, resolution with your infant or
resolution or relationship restoration with your partner,

(26:06):
you still might deep down want that.
And I think if if you do, it's an we need to provide those
opportunities to go. Your horrible, yucky feeling is
not necessarily the end state ofthis experience for you this
season. You know, there is the way to
walk, walk through this with with peers, but also experts to
navigate a way to actually what you deep down really want.

(26:29):
So I think that's probably some of the stuff that we're really
excited to be able to just be part of people's journey or help
people on that journey, not in their lives personally, but
create platforms and spaces where this good work can happen.
Because we know this good work is a stuff that will really
change the outcomes of that infant growing up, the safety,
the security, the love, the carethat they experience, but also

(26:51):
the richness of the relationshipof mums and dads who like we, we
want to be, we want to be the best version of ourselves.
We're inhibited by so many traumatic and tragic experiences
from our, from our, from our life.
And on that, just to encourage like, no, no time is too late as
well, someone that we maybe two years ago were going through

(27:13):
unpacking a lot and a lot of stuff from those early years
came up and the conversations and, and navigating through that
brought such a, a freedom to ourrelationship and our family.
And that was like, what, you know, eight years post our first
and, you know, six years post our last.
So, you know, no time is too late to dive into the stuff that

(27:36):
has sat there and that feeling and the connection that it can
bring between you and your partner of sharing your
experience and your partner justbeing willing to listen and see
you and your experience to be heard.
You know, So yeah, there's no notimes too late.
And you'd be surprised if I can advocate for the how it can

(27:58):
bring a freedom in it, a newnessto your connection and your
relationship with not just your partner, but your your kids as
well. Yeah.
And to to like also highlight that in doing that, in my
experience, personally, it's also the scariest thing I ever
freaking did. And absolutely yes.
But if, if you're listening to this going yuck, I don't want to

(28:21):
do that yet. I get it.
Because, you know, putting that off for a couple of years is or
maybe more is, is a normal thingto do.
And it just sits there. But it does like a like a good
trailer. It just follows you through your
whole life until you you're ready to deal with that stuff.
And I think, you know, it's, it's never fully resolved, but
it's a it's a thing that you learn through and you grow

(28:42):
through. And if you can grow gross it up
with people that you love and you can actually be seen and
heard by them as you go through it.
That's the depth of what we've created for that relationship,
that that connection and that, that sense of purpose.
You know, you meet each day withthe challenges of your kids
with, with a sense of like, yeah.
But we're, we're in this together.

(29:03):
And yeah, I say that not like, like knowing that I spent
probably more of those 10 years not in that space than than in
that space. So, so not to say, hey, it's
easy. And just, yeah, it's, it's such
a such a big opportunity and a big hard fight and A and a
continual piece of work, which is I guess all the work that you
guys are doing this stuff for. You know, honey, we need to

(29:25):
chat. It's because of that, that yucky
feeling you feel on a Thursday night when things aren't, you're
not connecting and it's, you know, it's got to be said and if
it's not, you're going to just sit with that yucky feeling
until you just roll over and go to sleep.
Well, like we say, when communication dies, bad things
happen. And this, that's the stuff that
sits there without being aired and talked about.
And yeah, it's really painful. It's yucky and it doesn't feel

(29:47):
right, but it it brings healing.And otherwise, like you said,
it's like a trailer that followsyou.
It doesn't just disappear on itsown.
That's still that links to here.Yeah, absolutely.
That's The thing is the conversations aren't always
easy, but they're so important to be able to move forward and
grow. And something I love about dad's
group and I've experienced as well, and we work with a lot of

(30:09):
dads and dads group leaders about this too.
That whole sharing thing that we're talking about is like,
it's kind of taught you like a lot of dads or guys need to
learn that, but we haven't learned that.
So that's such a foreign thing to do because we either haven't
seen it modelled to us or it's just not the thing that you do,
right. So what I love with Dad's grip
is we create that space. It's not now you need to come

(30:32):
along to a dad's grip and be like, all right now tell us
everything you know. Share.
With me, everything, it's just like, no come and hang out, you
know, And once you after a while, if we can create that
culture of these places like these groups and these catch UPS
where we just do that and they observe that they they do lean
into that as well and they startto open up too.

(30:52):
A big part of that is how do we engage dads because as we've
shared like that, the piece is so hard to do.
Like this is not the norm in Australia for men to get
together and connect and to share and all that sort of
stuff. So you shared with me a while
ago about, well, how did you guys overcome that?
So Tom, you were trying to get groups together, like, you know,

(31:12):
dads to catch up and stuff, but that wasn't always easy.
So what did you guys do about that?
So how did we get the dads together?
Oh well, you know, where do you find like the old, the old?
Where do you? Where do you find dads?
Thinking, thinking, thinking, thinking.
Yeah. Where do you find dads?
Well, firstly, I think, you know, Kate's mum's group had all

(31:33):
the dads in it. And I think for she was just
like, oh, I'll get, you know, Craig 12 for you.
Yeah, I'll get Craig and some ofthe other dads to go and hang
out. And you could just tell the
first time he caught up. Seriously, Craig's like,
actually my wife told me to do this.
And I'm like, yeah, my wife toldme to do this.
And then someone else. Yeah, cool.
Let's just grab a coffee. Yeah, cool.
We don't need each other. No, no needs.
No needs here. No, I've got no needs.

(31:54):
I've. Got no needs no.
No, no, no, the mum's kid is we went let's all have coffee
without our infants. But let's get the, we all know
we're all, we're all still feeding and all sorts of at the
time. So where we were, we
strategically said let's have a coffee here and send the guys
over here, which is just across the road with the babies and the

(32:15):
library to have a coffee there. And then we all come together.
So we're going to this all in the same car together.
Arrive. We all arrived together.
Arrive together and then the dad's head over there and the
mum's head over there and. Awesome.
Why I wanted to actually highlight that though, is
because what that shows is the teamwork of, of bringing that

(32:37):
change, right? So Tom, whether you knew you
need that support in that time or not, the fact that you you
guys were able to orchestrate that together was really
important. And so something that we're
exploring now as well. And what we're encouraging is,
again, so if you're listening tothis and you're thinking like,
oh, my, my partner needs this, like he needs to go do this,
just have that sensitive approach that as well be like,

(33:00):
well, this might be very much out of his comfort zone.
This might not be normal at all.So how can this be done?
How can this support be for him?But how can you bring that
together? How can you actually achieve
that together? And I think that's just a great
example of that. Yeah.
And on that, on that, Blair, we do try and encourage family days
in dad's groups. It's a great start for new

(33:21):
families to come along so they can come together.
And it's a little bit less intimidating than just a guy
coming down with his baby to those sort of social events.
Also too on that, you know, it was that was how it started.
But I got to the point maybe a few months in and realised how
much I needed that time. That time then would go off

(33:44):
confidently with our newborn andmeet up with the dads for coffee
that I would bank on that time and think in the week, dream in
the week. How am I going to use that?
What do you really need this week?
And sometimes it took self discipline just to have rest and
other times it was like, I'm going to book my hair or I'm
going to catch up with that friend.

(34:06):
And that doesn't have babies that I really love.
And but it was it was something to look forward to in my week.
And I think that's one of my biggest advice to new parents is
have something to look forward to in your day and something to
look forward to over your week. And that really created this

(34:27):
space, this guaranteed locked intime that I could just bank on,
you know, for, you know, walk orsleep or sometimes I just really
wanted to mop my floors. And that sounds silly.
No, it was your thing. I get up.
Feeling all the time. Just tell us, have you heard

(34:51):
heard him complain recently. He's like, can someone vacuum
the floors? He's getting ready by the feel
on his feet. And I was like, bud, you can do
it. Yeah, Is that, is that our
youngest? Is that our toddler?
He does. No.
But that's that's actually a really good point too, Kate.
So, you know, we're talking about dad's group, we're talking

(35:12):
about man with a pram. But what impact has that had on
the family though? I.
Reckon. Unity.
Interestingly, yeah. When it doesn't, yeah.
Yeah, believe it or not, I thinkwhen I really, he was probably
three years in, Tom read an article and I, I read the, he

(35:35):
sent it through to me like, oh, this article got published and
I've read it and I just cried because I was like, was this
really your experience? So like I really in that writing
that he did and the specific questions that the journalist
asked, like really pulled up what Tom's experience was.

(35:57):
And I just had no idea how you were feeling, really.
I think how understanding where your partners at can bring to
stuff like that empathy, that compassion.
It brings a sense that you're able to also maybe then share
where you're at and and make a plan like, OK, how do we right,

(36:21):
this is where we're at. How do we do this?
You know, like there's this, this unity that comes from from
it. Yeah, something that we we speak
about a lot too is that way and we've experienced this 100%.
Like when dads are supported, the whole family supported, you
know, in that period. Like the reason why I was I

(36:42):
would be so supportive to Amy was because, as mentioned
before, she was on a general anaesthetic.
There was like she couldn't receive that information.
I was the only one there. And so everyone was so I was
actually equipped and I could bethat support.
But we hear of a lot of gods that are in that similar
position where, you know, their partner isn't a general
anaesthetic and they're like, what do I do now?

(37:04):
Like, I don't know how to do this.
And we hear a lot of these stories as well of like, you
know, I, I share it sometimes aswell.
You know, no dad that I've ever met is going to says I'm going
to be the worst dad ever. I've never ever met a dad to say
that. All I hear is dad saying I'm
going to be the best dad or I'm not going to be like my dad was
or anything. And then they go into parenthood

(37:25):
and they're like, how do I do that?
You know, I don't, I don't know how to do that because this is
so unexpected. I'm not ready for this.
I haven't been trained for this.I haven't been equipped for
this. And that's where we see some
really drastic and sad, sad circumstances sometimes, but
just really that that equipping is, is of the dad is really
setting them up to better support the family.

(37:45):
So we do see that ripple effect as dads are better supported,
the families better supported. Yeah, I agree with that.
And I think, you know, to question what's the impact on
your family and and other people's families and stuff.
Again, some people learn different ways going back to
that learning journey for parents.
Some people read books, some people listen to a bunch of
podcasts. Some people do read watch

(38:05):
movies. Some people do all the above.
And some people like to learn shoulder to shoulder slowly.
And they're all great learning ways to become the best parent
you can be. However, in an environment where
you're in situ with that kind ofexperiential learning, that's a
space where I'll just always love to share, you know, sharing
about connecting with some of the dads and Margaret, one of

(38:26):
them was my brother in law. And the way he interacted with
his kids was different to the way he interacted with his mind.
And I really, I've always said, you know, Matt, I love the way
you connect with your with your kids and with other all kids.
Like he just has his connection,the way he does it.
And I think for me, that little,that's a really deep life
learning lesson in a moment. They're the types of golden

(38:46):
Nuggets that get to be shared with each other without going
and doing a course or an MBA on,you know, parenthood, fatherhood
or reset all this kind of stuff.But they're happening all the
time. And, you know, again, also come
back to the whole the our First Nations, you know, culture with
60,000 years and the oldest living, you know, culture in, in
history. And, you know, they haven't got

(39:08):
these huge buildings and these big, you know, white papers and
these re establishments that they're carrying a culture and
they've, they've handed that down through these bases of
being under a tree or around a fire or doing women's business
and men's business and communitybusiness together.
And that they, these these guys are the custodians of the
values. They, they, they, they move

(39:29):
through the generations. And I really feel like that was
a big part of the heart of dad'sgroup is like, don't miss out on
what the older generation can share with you.
So having my dad there as part of it and those good positive
grandparent role models. And don't miss out on the option
to to normalise some of the challenges you're going through.
Because if you can see that yourchallenges is actually somewhat

(39:51):
normal, that a million people have gone through something
similar to you and a million people are going through
something similar to you right now.
And a million people will go through.
And that's just Australia with the number, you know, globally
there's even more. So if you can normalise it and
go OK, there is a pathway here and you've got something really
special for the hard times and the hard times just.
They keep punching all of us in the face like it's non stop.

(40:13):
It's just, it's not this week, it'll be next week.
You know, like it. You don't have a great, you
don't have 365 great days every year.
And I think when when you don't have those great days, if you
can be proactive in building, I guess that support network of
friends and, and family. Like we're really lucky we've
got one of our dad's group matesjust lives over the road and his

(40:34):
baby's crawling over to our house, you know, and that that
community is so special and not everyone has the benefit, but
you can go and make it. You can go out there and be
intentional about it and chat toyour wife or your partner and
see what she thinks. She's going to have some great
ideas for you. And, and vice versa.
What? I want to say too, because you
mentioned something really briefly about, you know, your

(40:56):
dad being a part of dad's script.
So for those that are watching on YouTube, you can tell that we
don't live close to Tom and Kate.
They're in shirts. I mean, I rugged up.
I think we got a snow Blizzard actually happening at the
moment. And legit, it's crazy.
So, but I'm actually, I actuallylive close to Tom's dad who
attends our dad's group. And you just see when he comes

(41:16):
along, just that experience and coming into the conversation is
so special. And so for all of our listeners
as well, you might be like, well, I'm not in that perinatal
period. I don't just have a baby, but
you might know someone that doesand you might be your
grandparents. We know you're there, you've
written in to us, so be involved, right?
So we're talking about Man with the pram, we're talking about
Dad's group Join 1. You can go onto the website

(41:39):
dadsgroup.org or Man with thepram.com and check those out
and sign up. Be a part of this support.
You don't have to just be a new dad to be part of that because
it's the experiences that you bring.
It's the life lessons that you bring.
It's so powerful. You might not even have kids
yet. Join it before you have kids.
Be a part of that. It's so much easier to find.

(42:01):
Have support when you've alreadygot around you, then find it
when you need it. So I want to encourage you with
that. Yeah, like like Tom said, if
you're not, if you're not needing the help, be the help.
And on that 2, two of our most successful groups was actually
one was a granddad who just knewfor his son this would be
awesome, but it was a lot to facilitate.
So he just was like, I'm going to facilitate this for you.

(42:24):
And he did the background of it and showed up and these other
guys showed up and he was just like this granddad and was just
present. And another one is one of our
maternal health nurses. But all the leaders in our group
call and Nana Kim, because she'sjust like, she's amazing.
And she just goes, oh, I just set up the space and let the
guys do their thing. So really like these two people

(42:46):
who are a generation out of thisfacilitating this just like
created such a space for this tobe a place of ease for parents
to walk in and walk out of and and just be cared for by that
other generation, you know? Yeah, and picking up on the
golden thread there, if you lookat those stories and and a few
others, Nana Kim, you know, massive facilitator behind the

(43:07):
scenes, the grandfather talked about Joe and and his his son.
I also know behind the scenes his wife did night by a huge
amount of the heavy lifting mainthat happens.
Joe was that ambassadorial piece, but also his wife, the
grandma massive massive instigator in bringing this
together. I know you know Sam Cooke like
if you actually trace through all our stories behind them.

(43:31):
Amazing women doing some incredible empowering work to
help those you know, those families that succeed and those
fathers connect with other fathers because they often see
or experience the need the man has before the man is even aware
of it. And I think that's, that's a
that's, that's not something to be shy away from.
That's something to just embraceand go.
That's, that's a cool element ofrelational growth together.

(43:53):
I think it absolutely works viceversa.
Like we sometimes see partners, their wives in need that they
haven't seen yet. And that's the journey of
working together. But just a key acknowledgement
of those powerful, quiet female women leaders in our communities
that, you know, latch onto this or even think of Helen, Helen

(44:13):
Funk and then Helen Gunter and you know, these, these midwives
and child health nurses and Kerry who we met up in Mount
Isa, you know, these are the people who just get get on board
and they quietly make it happen.And I think that's a really
important shout out to grandparents and people who
think, oh, maybe it's not maybe dad's group.
It's not for me. Well, dad's group random like

(44:34):
that to make sure it's not another playgroup where mums and
kids are and there's no dads. And that's not a, that's not a,
a slide on any playgroup. That's a reference to our
cultural adaptation of what parenting looks like has become
a mum's job. And it's moving away from that.
We're we're just championing thepeople who are helping move away

(44:54):
from that into a, it can be whatever what you guys want it
to be as, as parents. You know, dad's group is like
highlighting this is a space foryou if you wanted to want to be
involved and and here's the reasons why you could be
involved. Yeah, and just on that too, like
I, I would not be the dad that Iam today if Amy wasn't, you
know, is invested in my fatherhood as as I am, right.
And, and I genuinely believe Dad's group wouldn't be the way

(45:18):
that it is now as an organisation if we didn't have
Kate and Amy speaking into that space from a mum's perspective.
Like, you know, it's so true. It's not we we'd say it's called
dad's group. It's called Man with a Pram.
That's to help dads be like, look, man, this is your space.
Come, come and join this space. Actually, the heart of it is,
hey everyone, you hear this, come and join us.
Even Bonnie wants to join right now.

(45:40):
So needy. I wrote one word down, which I
think for me in the last season has been really powerful and in
relation to the stuff that a discussion like this might bring
up for people. It most likely will bring up
some stuff. If you're deeply listening to
some of the challenges, maybe trauma in your life, either as a
child or as a parent or or as a child that the children that

(46:02):
you're parenting their trauma ormight be your partner's trauma.
It might be uncomfortable conversations and all those
types of things. The one word I would like people
to to leave with as an encouraging positive word is, is
slow. And just give yourself and your
family slow time to slow down and have reflection.
Essentially, it looks like on the outside you're not achieving

(46:24):
anything, but there's things happening in those deep waters
of your soul that is really important.
And we've learnt that with our kids and, and their needs and
wondering should they be more active and doing more things.
And I've just really connected in with being slow to be able to
have that space to reflect and that, you know, if I'm not going

(46:46):
like I really value coming back home after a trip for work or
whatever and just having space to sit and think and reflect
because that helps consolidate what you believe.
And then it helps when you actually go and be present with
someone to sharing from your heart and soul or listening from
your heart and soul and asking curious questions.
And I think I feel like I've ranreal fast for 10 years.

(47:09):
And now I'm getting to a point where I'm like, actually,
there's real power and going slow.
And that slowness really invitessomeone else to slow down.
And we were talking, Kate, you and I were talking about our
kids and some of them, you know,with their, their anxiousness or
worriedness about different things.
And you know, what do you do? And, and like I'd said the word
bludge, I think I just bludge next to them.

(47:30):
So it looks like you're just doing nothing.
But it's almost like intentionalbludging time so that they sense
your presence. There's nothing to achieve.
You got time and then from that place, you know, allow silence
to happen and be comfortable with that.
And then from that space bubblesup a little question or
something and and there it is. There's a gold nugget and you

(47:51):
just go with your role with thatand you're cool.
Tell me more about that. That's so good.
I love that. I love the setting of that
culture without having to overtly be like, this is what
we're doing. You're just allowing that space
and bringing that into your parenting and hopefully also
bringing that into your rhythms as a parent and as a partner.
That's awesome, guys. This has been a really good chat
and as always, we could chat with you guys forever and keep

(48:14):
going because there's so much totalk about and obviously it's a
space that we're all really passionate about.
But in the wrap up of this, where can people learn more
about Dad's group? Where can people learn more
about Man with a Pram? If someone was listening to this
and they're like, this sounds like something I want to get on
board with, where would you sendthem?
Dadsgroup.org is the website andman with thepram.com is the man
with the pram site. So you can jump on board.

(48:37):
Yeah, I think that that's probably the place that I'd
point you. But also just consider like,
what is it that you want you want to build?
Like think about your own community.
And if you don't have a community, like how do you want
to build that? And, and yeah, make that real.
Make it slow. Reach out and start.
Like our passion isn't for our organisation or our events to
grow. Our passion is for people to

(48:59):
have meaningful experiences and grow their village so that you
have, you know, we're catalysingchange in your local families
and villages. And that's, that's the important
piece there. This is just a platform, one of
many that you can, you can, you know, begin that.
And it's really, there's not many like it for fathers.
So yeah, yeah, we're, we're, we're really excited to, to make

(49:19):
that space an Invitational spaceand, and go on your learning
journey and share that with us. We'd love to hear about your
learning journey there. And on that it is.
It is such a journey tonight. I've been on such a such a
journey and done some of our hardest years most recently, and
we are so human and we're we're blessed to have our team, have

(49:41):
Amy and Blair on our team who are just, you know, we couldn't
be doing what we're doing without all the people in our
community around us. And like just know wherever
you're at that it's it's just starting there.
Like to quote Amy and Blair, just pick up a brick 21 in your

(50:03):
last podcast. That's been the.
Episode. That was so encouraging to me.
And like, today was such a brick.
But yeah, it's, it's a journey and just you're hearing a decade
for us in, in an hour. I don't know how else to say it,
but like, we're not awesome. We're very human.

(50:25):
You are awesome and you're very human.
Yeah. And in that, but we found great
blessing, great freedom in embracing our very humanness and
just going, you know, at times we don't know how to move
forward in this and getting support and getting help We
yeah. So we are we run a support

(50:46):
company because we know how muchsupport has grown been
everything to us. So.
Yeah, to echo that, it's if if you're feeling like, oh
goodness, I'm not as polished and as that we're not polished.
And it's the mess and being and allowing that mess to actually
work through that mess is more often a mess.

(51:08):
And some days there's no way we could just sit here and do this,
have this conversation today we can yeah, it's working.
But other days we can't. So I just, yeah, I'd hate to
think for a minute that someone thinks, oh, they've got there
together, but we're just, it's very important to us that, you
know, behind the scenes. It's just this is messy, like,
you know, this morning, getting the kids to leave for school.
There's challenges. There's missing socks and tears

(51:30):
and socks. Yeah.
Socks are the worst, Yeah. And that's what we say in the
podcast all the time. We're all real people, and
that's why we have these conversations.
And it's easy to have it in a nice, neat episode where it
sounds wrapped up nicely. And the heart behind it is
really important because these conversations need to happen.
But yeah, there's a truth behindthe reason we're in these

(51:50):
positions is because we're real people with real problems.
And the the more we can expose that or the more we can be
honest and raw with that, the more other people feel heard and
seen and can hopefully join in on that as well.
Yeah, and and on that for for us, communication has been a
space we've had to do so much groundwork on and so encourage

(52:12):
you guys and that keep listeningto this podcast as weekly how to
how to communicate. Thanks, Kate.
Awesome. Yeah, well, thank you guys so
much for tuning in and thank youguys so much for just being
available for this space. You've done such a great job and
we just love, as Amy said before, just chatting with you
guys more about that. There is still time to sign up

(52:33):
for Man With a Pray, and when this episode comes out, it's
only gonna be for like a week. So if you're.
Listening past a week, Yeah. Father's Day weekend.
And if it's past that, look at next week, next year.
Sorry, Look at the next year's. Or next week and you know, we've
got you know, if you're in Paris, there's a walk gonna be
there. You United Kingdom, America,
Where's the American 1 Blair. Pennsylvania.

(52:55):
In Sylvania. I've always wanted to go there.
Are we in Transgecistan? We don't have any dads in
Transgecistan or Kyrgyzstan. So we're looking for a
Kyrgyzstan war. We've got Singapore, We've got
South Africa. Yep.
Looking for someone in the Americas.
Yeah. Wherever you're listening, you
can do a man with a pram walk orjoin one.
That's happening. And also, as Tom said, the the

(53:17):
DAZ Group website, and I'm saying this because I respond to
the info app, there's resources there for anyone listening that
are from us or from partners that we have that are really
supportive in this perinatal mental health space.
And also, if you're listening and you do want to start this
community and you want help, there's really clear, really

(53:38):
easy to step through resources to get you established and a
dad's group community behind youas well.
So please check that out. Awesome.
Good chat guys, see you next week.
See ya.