This powerful episode of Honey, We Need to Chat welcomes Andrew and Kayte Kitchen (creatives, therapists, and real-life warriors) into a vulnerable and deeply encouraging conversation.
What makes this episode especially moving is that they didn’t wait until things were resolved to speak. Andrew and Kayte joined us while still walking through a hard season in their marriage and work life, a rare and courageous choice that sets the tone for something truly real.
Together, we explore what it means to communicate during seasons of exhaustion, loss, and inner transformation. Expect insights on navigating marriage in hard times, how Sabbath rest can restore your soul, the role of active listening in healing communication, and how deconstructing ego creates space for authentic connection.
If you've ever questioned your worth, struggled to feel heard in your relationship, or wondered how to slow down in a nonstop world, this episode is for you. Plus, Andrew’s take on protecting creativity from the digital world will stick with you for days.
You can connect with Andrew at sparrowcollective.com.au and with Kayte at admirari.com.au.
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marriage communication podcast, relationship advice, Sabbath rest, burnout recovery, parenting through hard times, vulnerability in marriage, creativity vs. technology, active listening, ego and relationships, spiritual reflection, nature therapy, healing conversations
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I had virtually no heated discussion skills through my
youth. Until about 24 hours into our
marriage. Yeah, to say, come on, fight.
Come on, let's start this out and you move forward.
Hello and welcome back to Honey.We need a chat.
(00:21):
We are a podcast all about communication and relationships,
and we believe that when communication dies, bad things
happen. So we love to bring
conversations to you that are uplifting to your relationship.
And this week is no different. We have an incredible guest
episode to bring to you guys. We are chatting to Andrew and
Katie Kitchen. We've known Andrew and Katie
Kitchen for a number of years and when we are trying to think
of guests we wanted on the podcast, they came straight to
(00:43):
mind. So we reached out to them and
interestingly, they responded saying actually this had been a
very difficult for their marriage and that they didn't
know if they would be the right people to talk on the podcast.
Normally that would probably give us a little bit of pause
and we'd probably say, Yep, no worries, we can come back to it
when you're feeling ready for it.
But because we know Andrew and Katie and we know their hearts
and we've seen how they share and uplift other people through
(01:05):
their experiences, we thought this might be actually a super
unique opportunity to talk to and hear from a couple that's in
the trenches at the moment and just learn from what they've
been observing, what they've gone through, and see what they
had on their hearts to share from that space.
So we put that out to them. We said, you know what, no
worries. If you don't want to come,
that's totally fine. But if this is something you're
(01:25):
interested in, we would love to have you on the episode anyway.
And they said yes, which we're really excited about.
This conversation is raw, it's authentic.
It's not your everyday conversation.
It's not the normal kind of interview you'd get from a
couple on a relationships podcast.
We're hearing from people that are in a difficult time.
And Andrew and Katie were fantastic.
They have such wisdom. They're incredible communicators
(01:47):
and they've done so much in their lives to help other
people. So we're really excited about
this episode. We're excited to see how it
helps you guys, and we're excited to bring it to you.
So we hope you enjoy this chat with Andrew and Katie Kitchen.
Honey, we need to chat. Well, thank you so much to
(02:13):
Andrew and Katie Kitchen for being here today.
We're really excited to be interviewing you guys.
We, I have personally known Andrew and Katie for a number of
years and Blair has known them for a few years as well.
We've been at church together and you guys have been just such
a blessing to our family and we've really enjoyed seeing your
family grow and being a part of that with youth and stuff.
(02:33):
So very excited to be chatting to you guys.
You're just really encouraging and really fun.
And when we actually approached Andrew and Katie to do this
interview, we were just wanted to chat to them because they've
got so much wisdom and experience to talk about.
But they actually responded saying this is quite a tough
time for you guys personally. And so we thought, oh, that's
fine. But if we also put the offer out
(02:55):
there, if you're happy to chat from a difficult stage and share
some of that wisdom that you're experiencing right now, we're
also open to that, just to let you know.
But no worries. And you guys came back and said
that you are willing to share from that space, which is really
huge because it's not not everybody would be.
In fact, most people probably wouldn't be.
And so we just really want to honour you guys are so fun.
(03:17):
You're so you're, you got so much experience and you've done
so much for people. But also, this is a different
tone to a conversation as well than just those things.
So this is an amazing couple andwe're going to get them to
introduce themselves because they've both done some really
cool things. But we also just wanted to leave
some space for this conversationis a raw one.
And we're really, really honoured that you're willing to
(03:38):
be here and have that conversation with us today.
So thank you for being here. And I would like to just ask you
guys, even though we've already spoken about this, but so
everybody can hear a little bit about it, what is it that you're
doing at the moment in your working and serving space and?
OK, so I, I guess if you start with the, the meta narrative of
(04:00):
my life is, is beauty from brokenness.
And if you drill that down on a number of levels, I write songs
with people who live with disability and various
challenges and illnesses and allsorts of things.
So I help them tell their own stories and validate them in
that space. I write my own songs and
(04:22):
typically those songs when when I'm in charge and I'm writing
for my own enjoyment. It's about people who have
overcome and almost obstacles and seen a new season come about
in their life. So it's I basically write
resurrection songs in story. Beauty from brokenness also
(04:43):
looks like fixing things around the house, looking at things on
hard rubbish piles and giving things new life, fixing,
repairing, painting, sanding, all sorts of practical things.
Because I've realised I'm quite tactile and, and whilst the work
I do is very rewarding and, and,and I feel like I'm genuinely
(05:05):
making a contribution into people's lives, I see no tactile
change. I just see people going.
That was great. Thank you very much.
I can't believe I've written a song with you.
And I can't wait to play this tomy family.
I'm like, awesome. And then they leave and I kind
of feel, well, they've got it. And so I need a combination of,
(05:28):
you know, building new things for my chicken coop or doing a
big excavations so that we've got new options and I don't
know, like home renovations and things.
So, so my work is music in varying capacities, but my
vocation I guess is is resurrection of all sorts of
(05:48):
different things. I've been really encouraged by
some of the reflections I've seen even just on your Facebook
posts that you've shared over the years as well.
Andrew, your writing has been a huge blessing to so many people.
I actually was introduced to youthrough the band and a sceptic
back, back back in the day, my friends were obsessed with you.
But over the years and all the work that you've done, you're
(06:09):
writing, even in your Facebook reflections that you've shared
sometimes has been really deep and very relatable.
So I can see how that's just transformational work, but I
love that practical outworking of it as well.
Seeing actual physical tactile work come together.
I can understand why that would be an important part of it as
(06:29):
well for you. So that's cool.
Thanks for sharing about you, Katie.
So I am a nature therapist in myprivate practise, which is a
term I kind of made up because there was nothing out there that
was what I wanted to do. And that is to remind people of
the healing and helpful and teachable qualities of nature.
(06:53):
So for kids, that looks like horticultural activities and
different things, as well as mindfulness and sensory
activities. And for adults, it looks a bit a
little bit more reflective. And it's just, it's just
beautiful space to hold for people.
And I don't have to do much talking, which I love just
nature and our creation does that for me.
(07:16):
And I combine that with working three days a week with children
at a big hospital in Melbourne in that garden therapy space as
well. So it's, it's an honour and a
privilege to be able to help people along their journey just
by doing something that for somepeople is really common sense.
When I get outside, I go for a walk or I touch the ground, I
(07:36):
dig something, I look at the trees.
But for a lot of people, we've just slowly become disconnected
from nature. And so, and it happens really
gradually. So most people kind of don't
realise that it's happened. But yeah, just just reminding
people that that they have that free source of therapy available
to them anywhere, anytime, and they don't need me.
(07:59):
Yeah. So I'm not a good salesperson
for my own business, I should say.
I kind of encourage people to a place where they don't need me
anymore. But yeah, it's just, it's really
just a reminder in terms of that.
Yeah, that holding that space. So that's what I get to do,
which is lovely. That's so cool.
And then I have my garden at home as well.
But I tend to do the physical stuff and see things grow and
(08:20):
change and seasons and all thosebeautiful lessons that the
garden can offer. Well I love how just innately
therapeutic nature is. And you're so right, I feel very
disconnected from nature becauseI'm not much of an outdoor
person, but when I am out there,it's crazy how grounding it is
and just just slowing down and everything.
So I can imagine how impactful that would be.
(08:40):
And I have some friends that have experienced your nature
therapy and they love it. So you're doing good work.
Thank you. Thank you.
So thanks, thanks for sharing with us guys.
We're really excited to be chatting with you, as we said
before and and it's obvious through the work that you guys
do in the hearts that you have how focused on being authentic
(09:01):
and also walking with people that you both are as a couple
and as individuals. So it's an honour to hear your
story in a place that's maybe a little bit uncomfortable.
But you know, our podcast is allabout communication and in
relationships and the idea of building and reinforcing that as
people step into their relationships and how important
(09:22):
that can be when you're navigating a a difficult time,
as you're navigating at the moment and the waves that people
go through. And all of us would have
experienced ups and downs relationally.
Communication probably is something that gets tested.
I'm sure there's a few obstaclesthat probably come in in that
time. So how, how are you guys finding
at this moment that communication your, your culture
(09:44):
around communication as a couplehas been challenged or what
obstacles are you finding that you're navigating at the moment?
I guess to start with, I'd just like to acknowledge that, you
know, this is a really vulnerable space for us at the
moment. We've come off a a month of
sickness for starters, amongst everything else that's
happening. And so our hearts are really to
(10:07):
encourage other people along thejourney because as you said,
it's definitely not all roses. And no, what's the other thing?
Not all roses. What is it?
Roses. Bed of roses, a bed of roses,
rainbows, rainbows and lollipopsand unicorns.
But we, you know, our heart is to really honour, honour and
encourage other people. But at the same time we have to
(10:28):
honour our relationship. And so we come as vulnerable
people. But but we need to go gently
today. So in terms of barriers to
communication, well, I think probably for us our our last
decade maybe has been learning and understanding more about
ourselves and really digging into that a bit.
(10:49):
And so I know for my barriers tocommunication, I have this
little kind of habit that I get into where I kind of relate
myself to Mary and Martha. Well, actually Martha and I kind
of go and I go and I go and I try and be that martyr and I
have my own little pity party and I put others needs before my
(11:11):
own and then it all kind of spirals until it explodes.
So that's my my tendency. And so I've had to come up with
a bit of a self care plan that recognises that and tries to cut
in and intentionally deescalate before it explodes.
And how am I going with that, Andrew?
(11:33):
It depends on the day. Yeah, yeah, I there there are
like probably one thing that hashelped in the the last season is
being a bit more intentional about Sabbath and going on a
Sunday. We really try and stop, we turn
our phones upside down, face this the the bench if where we
(11:54):
can and we just slow down time. That's that's what we're trying
to do And and yes, sometimes that's just sitting on the couch
and and giving each other a footmassage and and just talking and
stuff like that. During the other six days.
Goodness me it half the time it feels like a tornado of activity
(12:15):
and and to do lists and and and stuff.
There isn't a lot of some evenings, some evenings we can
have a little touch of Sabbath and just sitting in
communication. But yeah, that the, the schedule
that three boys keep and we hosta student as well.
(12:38):
So that's, that's four boys in ahouse.
And then Katie's got, you know, her own things going on as well.
So it can be can be difficult toto to protect that space.
And with, with the nature of my work, I don't do 9:00 to 5:00
Monday to Friday, my shifts kindof a move around.
And, and so there isn't to, to some degree we've got a rhythm
(13:02):
and a flow to our working week and our time together, but to
also some degree which we don't,it depends on what clients I
have on in the week. Katie's just gone through a
season of covering off more timeat work to fill the fulfil
someone else's work obligations that left.
So, but now we're out of that season and she'll go back to
(13:25):
having two days a week of not going into the city.
So that will be helpful, I think.
So it maybe was a combination ofa number of things that made
this season particularly difficult.
Yeah. Yeah.
So I think we have intentionallytried to make our lives simple.
And I think that if we break it right down, we don't actually
(13:51):
run around like chicken. We don't have to run around like
chickens. However, I think that is part of
our coping strategy. Both of us just try and do more
to feel that sense of whatever else is happening.
So if we're feeling less than insome other space, well, we will
(14:11):
do more. Compensate.
To compensate. And so for me that will spiral
as I said before, and explode. But I think for you, Andrew,
it's more like it will wind you down and you will become more
weary. Would you would you agree with
that? Yeah, maybe.
Yeah. And so so we do try and live a
simple life and I think that a lot of people do over schedule
(14:36):
their lives and we've tried really hard not to, but I think
it's that self inflicted busy that we get caught up on.
Yeah, do. You do you find that you
mentioned as well the importanceof Sabbath and how you want to
be having a Sabbath and at nighttimes you want to have a
Sabbath. Do you find that it's something
that's in your mind even amongstthe busyness?
(14:58):
Or do you find as as the thing to forget easily because you're
so busy the the need for Sabbathif that makes sense or the
priority of it in your relationship?
I think the fact that we we actually are intentional about a
whole day. Yeah.
Means that you you, it's pretty hard to forget when it's a whole
(15:18):
day. But if we were like, oh, we're
going to do Sabbath between 7:00and 7:25 every after every
night, like stuff would come up,you know, like that we would
just forget. But the fact that we wake up on
a Sunday and we go, today is a day of rest and a day of turning
off our minds from the usual work and To Do List.
(15:41):
Yeah. Mm, hmm.
Mm hmm. I think it's harder to ignore
when you actually set aside a day and it it is tempting to do
stuff and it's it's and, and it's not like we just sit there
and twiddle our thumbs. You, you.
Sometimes we do and it looks. Like it is.
Yeah, yeah, it, it looks like, yeah, eyes open for the 1st 5
(16:05):
minutes and then and then heads back.
But like I might find Sabbath rest in just working with my
hands and just doing a small project, you know, I'm not, I'm
not going to like repave the whole backyard like on a Sabbath
day and go, this was Sabbath rest.
But I might just sweep up some leaves and put them in the
(16:27):
compost and fill the chickens grains and and sit down with the
dog for a bit and just mow our tiny little lawn.
Do a do a little bit more sweeping, maybe a little bit of
leaf blowing and feel like I'm observing the rhythms of rest
and restoration in my body. And also just keeping an energy
(16:50):
going, you know, and that that can start in its and of itself
can still the mind. Yeah.
The enjoyment of simple, non demanding tasks I work with, I
work with people who are quite high needs and demanding and I
need to almost I, I would use the word intercede between them
(17:15):
and their creativity to work outwhat story I can draw out.
And at the end of the session, sometimes I, I, I fall into this
position of my hands just falling like down.
And I'm just like, OK, that was full on.
So sometimes I'm left feeling quite rattled.
And so, yeah, a Sabbath rest dayis, is a very beautiful, yes,
(17:38):
non demanding space to refill. Yeah.
And that's important too, is what you were sharing before
about how you rest. You know, that's been something
that I've genuinely really struggled with is like knowing
how to rest. Like, you know, it's that
balance of should I just be sitting down and twiddling my
thumbs or should I be going overthere and doing that?
(18:00):
Like it's just it's really hard.And and I know for myself when I
don't get rest again, like I getmore rattled.
I don't get to I can't process things as much.
I'm not as rejuvenated or or whatever else as well.
So understanding yourself and how you rest I can see is.
The important one little thing that may help in that space is
(18:20):
preparing to rest. Yeah.
So. So Jewish people would prepare
all of the food that they're going to eat on the Saturday.
Yeah, that's awesome. And and clean up and tidy up
and, you know, so it wasn't likethey woke up to a huge pile of
dishes. Yeah, which we woke up to this
morning, but today's not the Sabbath, so.
(18:45):
Yeah, I love that idea of actually, because that also
feeds into the intentionality about setting aside that time
too, because you're planning forit and you're thinking about it
and you're making it, putting those boundaries around it to
make it work the way that's going to be the healthiest.
So. And we've actually ironically
been talking about this a lot recently and been wanting to put
that in on a Sunday. So it's nice to hear you guys
(19:07):
reflecting on it too, because I think that's another little
nudge, yeah. And I think to do it, a couple
of things to to note is that is that one, it becomes a habit.
It's like any other habit. It's clunky at first, but then
eventually it kind of becomes part of your family culture.
And two is our boys. We're not into it at all.
Yeah, yeah. And so we, we encourage them at
(19:29):
the start, but then we never force them to do that.
But we're modelling it. So we're modelling it every week
and they can, you know, we, we say to them, we'd like to have a
no tech day. It's the Sabbath, no tech.
And they might choose to do thator not, but we're still
encouraging them along that path.
So you usually get pushed back from your kids.
(19:50):
I think if you don't then that'sprobably unusual.
Yeah, they'll be bizarre, and I think it's such a beautiful
blessing to give them because they're not going to get that.
Especially in how busy and full every moment of life is these
days with the layered inputs is like social media and work and
technology and media in general and all this stuff school,
(20:13):
they're not going to get that outside of the home.
So if you can put that in place as a rhythm that you've shown
them, regardless of if they takeit on board for themselves or
not, at least they've experienced that and they'll, I
think that's a a huge example that they're that will be
invaluable for them as they age.Absolutely.
Don't you think it's just the best gift you can give them if
(20:35):
they understand 6 days of work, one day of oh.
My gosh, yes, absolutely. What a gift to give them.
Yeah, because it will set them apart and hold them in a good
space for the rest of their life.
What a great habit. If we circle back to
communication, given the nature of this podcast again, one I
just want to say to your listeners, I don't always sound
(20:56):
like this, but. Neither do.
IAA near a near three week long throat infection that's that's
tickling my throat. Neither of us has slept through
the night for two to three weeks.
Anyway these all these things can affect the way you feel
about everything. But anyway, communication.
I am a overthinker, classic overthinker cyclonic kind of
(21:22):
level and not spiral. Everything's bad, not, not at
all, but just thinking right. So one thing where Katie and I
are are it's definitely a work in progress space.
Even next April, I think we're up to 20 years and we we still,
we still haven't nailed this. When I think we will.
(21:44):
Sorry. When, when to talk about things,
right. So like, if significant things
need to be discussed, if we do that anything after like 8:30 or
9, like I won't sleep until 2:00AM, yeah, I'll be lying there
going man. Like I, I will tell myself
(22:07):
sometimes, not all the time, butsometimes I'll tell myself some
pretty awful stories about how I'm going as a father and as a
husband and yeah, just so we need to be.
And, and then of course, you wake up feeling dreadful the
next morning. And then the how you're feeling
dreadful physically speaks back into what you've you're thinking
about yourself. And yes, you know, so then you
(22:29):
start to go down. That's when you start to go down
the spiral. Yeah.
But probably one thing, one goodand valuable lesson and
something that we still use fromtime to time is called the
practise of active listening, right?
So I will talk to Katie. That's something that I'm
(22:49):
thinking and feeling. Then instead of her responding
to what I've just said, she willrepeat back to me in her own
words what she has heard, right?So she'll say, So what I'm
hearing is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Is that accurate? And I will either say yes or no.
And this because so many people,and as soon as you start to do
(23:14):
this yourself, you start to see it in others, is that when
you're talking, they get this glazed look over their eyes and
it's like, I'm not listening to you.
I'm thinking about my rebuttal. And particularly so when there's
a heightened emotional experience behind it.
So in the workplace, if, if you know, I mean, I'm not sure you
(23:37):
guys are your workplace, aren't you?
So right. But in, in a workplace where
you've got 50 people and you're and you're, you're butting up
against someone, if a, if a difficult conversation or, or a
heavy conversation needs to occur, it really is invaluable.
And so to, to, to, yeah, you're not just rebutting, you're
(23:57):
going. What I heard is this.
Is that right? Mm Hmm.
Is that what you're wanting to say to me?
OK, well, if that's the case, then this is how I feel.
And then you swap. Yeah.
And I think that has it come up a lot more in the last decade,
hasn't it? You would well have often said
to me, this is how I'm perceiving this situation.
(24:20):
It may not be how you intend or your your intention, but this is
how I'm receiving it. And that can be helpful upon
reflection for both of us to kind of go, well, why am I
perceiving it this way? So he's perceiving it this way.
I have to back off. I have to go gently or I have to
clarify things and, and I guess two things #1 as a therapist,
(24:45):
reflection is the most underrated skill in the world.
So I think all of us need to build in time in our lives to
reflect. And that can be linked to prayer
and meditation, but it might notbe.
But #2 the skill of active listening is really good with
kids, too. Because, yeah, if we often as
parents, we just wanna say it'llbe all right, you'll be all
right, can't get up or whatever.But we just stopping and
(25:07):
listening and hearing what they're saying and then
empathising with them. Yeah.
So powerful. Not trying to fix that problem
because usually we think it's a small problem anyway.
Just fix it so that active listing with kids is often even
more challenging than with adults.
Absolutely. Yeah, wow, that's so.
(25:28):
That's so valuable. Yeah, we had AI, don't know if
you noticed when you were sharing then.
And we sort of, I mean, I had a bit of a response.
Yeah. When you're saying about how you
sit in bed till 2:00 AM and like, you know, this was our
conversation yesterday. We're driving back.
We were away for the weekend. It was a good weekend.
And I'm tired. Like we're tired.
You know, holidays when you're aparent, holidays are fun, but
(25:51):
they are so tiring. I am so exhausted.
Anyway, on the way back, it was like I was having one of those
moments of I and then I recognise it was, it's very fear
driven. Like I have this incredible fear
of my kids not wanting anything to do with me when I'm when
they're older and, and everything going through that of
(26:15):
I'm the worst dad, I'm the worst, you know, all this sort
of stuff. And, and you know, it's just
really refreshing here. And you say that, Andrew,
because I think is a big part of, of what I've been noticing
too. And, and another thing I'm
really wanting from this podcastis that when you hear that
someone else is struggling with something similar, you know, it
normalises your, what you're going through because a big part
(26:38):
of what I was feeling yesterday,I said to you, Amy, I said, I
just feel silly. Like I feel so silly like with
myself at the moment, like the way that I'm processing, the way
that I'm thinking or whatever else.
I just feel silly, like I shouldn't be doing it.
So it just validates the struggle.
But the thoughts, you know, you don't want to validate those
(26:58):
thoughts because as we walk workthrough, it's like, why would
that even be? Why do you feel that?
But yeah, that it was just just really resonated with what you
just said then, yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. So we have to deliberately and
intentionally carve out time that's not night time.
Yes, to connect with each other,which is always been a
(27:18):
challenge, hasn't it? Yes, always and so.
So how do you do that? How look, can you, can you walk
us through how you do that then?So you know, you, you know, you
don't want to really do past 8:30 or 9.
So then how do you find that time?
What does that process actually look like?
Well the IT it can happen in twodifferent scenarios and not and
(27:41):
we don't do this often enough, but occasionally we will just go
for a walk. Nice.
Occasionally it can also happen when we're side by side working
on something in the garden, so yeah.
That's, that's actually often what happens isn't it 'cause we
have this intention to go outside and have this lovely day
(28:04):
working side by side and often it will end up in tension.
Discussion. Yeah, yeah.
No tension. Yeah, right.
Like it often because we've sideby side.
Would that be fair? Yeah.
Ohh. I think that when we go into the
backyard, Katie has an unwrittenlist in her mind of things that
I'm gonna do. And then I just kind of, I just
(28:24):
kind of free format. I go, I might rake these leaves.
The grass is a bit long on the lawn.
I'll do that. I didn't clean up that pile of
wood from when I did that job the other day.
I'll just do that. And Katie's like, when's he
gonna get to my XY or Z? And I'm like, and she she might
have mentioned it already, but I'm just like, aren't we just
having a day of just kind of pottering in the backyard?
(28:48):
But sometimes one of one of the little key phrases that I have
said and Katie have said, if there's a long silence and we're
working near each other, one of us will start a sentence with
this, these exact words, I guess.
And then it will go on, right. I guess when you said the other
night that blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, it made me feel
(29:09):
blah, blah, blah. Or I guess, you know, it's
funny, we say those two words, Iguess.
And I've heard it and I've said it and, and I've gone, I've just
said it again. So I don't know that that's a
little crack in the door to I want to talk about.
To have a conversation, yeah. It's a gentle yeah, knock,
knock, knock. And that was.
(29:29):
Just random that it happened. It wasn't an intentional phrase
that you decided on. Yeah, it just sounded great, I
guess. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it's it's like, it's easier to say than like, Katie,
I wanna, I wanna talk to you about how usurp you usurped my
authority as a parent over our children at the dinner table the
other night. Or pointing the finger, that's
(29:50):
just, it doesn't go down so welleither.
No. But at the moment, our main
connecting time is actually Monday morning, 8:30 to 9:30 and
I'll tell you why. In the morning, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because our kids head off to
school at 8:30. They ride their bikes to school
and that's the first time in theweek that we can kind of go, all
right. And so we we sit down, we look
(30:13):
at our week, we connect and that's when anything that's
niggling will kind of bring up. But I think we're getting better
at bringing things up as they come up.
Because I. Think we're better at not going
into that defensive kind of modeand just receiving it, thinking
about it and and kind of, you know, filtering it into our
(30:37):
relationship, aren't we? Yeah.
And and to be respectful to bothsets of our parents, like no, no
two parents can ever be the fullGannett.
All of us, all of us nail it in certain columns and we're all
the we're all the work in progress in other columns.
(30:58):
So when I grew up, I never saw my mother or father have a
heated discussion, not once, right, That was taken offline.
So maybe they had that conversation when they went for
a walk around the suburbs and ormaybe they took it to their
(31:19):
bedroom and did it in hushed tones.
But I had virtually no heated discussion skills through my
youth. Until about 24 hours into our
marriage. So, yeah, so there was some some
(31:39):
learning in that space, yes. Yeah, yeah.
So what would that look like foryou then, Andrew, you, you
mentioned that you you struggledwith those skills.
Would you just clam up? Would you?
Yeah. Turtle shrink and disappear into
music. Yeah.
So how was that for you then, Katie?
(32:01):
Like, so obviously probably quite frustrating.
Was it 'cause you're trying to have a conversation?
Like what was that like for yourside if he went into turtle
mode? Yeah, it was total frustration,
but we learnt about our familiesof origin very early.
Yes, but that's been a continualunpacking, hasn't it?
Because something we've just realised recently and again,
(32:24):
full respect to our parents is that Andrew's family tendency is
to share and and share stories, a great storyteller.
So share, share, share. My family tendencies are wait to
be asked. Yeah, so.
When we're in a dynamic, it's it's Andrew will share, share,
share, share, share. And so, you know, obviously, or
(32:44):
if he cares, he'll ask. Or if anyone in a, you know,
social dynamic care, they'll ask.
And I don't know if that's a British kind of thing back a few
days, regulations, I'm not sure from my family, but it was
really evident at one of our recent birthday parties, wasn't
it? And it was just an interesting
thing to observe. And so, and I don't know if it's
(33:05):
a that way you can control the narrative a bit and control
what's being talked about or I don't know.
It's just it's really interesting to observe about
ourselves. But yes, when Andrew Wood
turtle, I would find that frustrating and I don't think I
ever really chased after you, but I wanted to to say, come on,
(33:28):
fight, come on, let's stop this out.
Let's work it out and get out and and you move forward.
But I had to really back off on that and respect that he needed
time and I was probably going topresent a better version of
myself if I took time as well and just.
Just. Lowered down my my stress level
(33:51):
so it was going to work better for both of us.
If it. Took time, but then finding that
time is really hard. So often we had to let it go.
And that's probably another really good thing, isn't it?
Sometimes the things I've been, we've been on holidays before
and day one or two I'm like, man, we need to address this and
we need to address this and we need to address all these
(34:12):
things. We won't address them on
holidays because that's not fair.
We'll address them when we get home, and then by the time we
get home, I've forgotten everything.
Yeah. So that's a really kind of cool.
Sometimes you just gotta quest and respect.
Frank hands. So sometimes you just gotta let
things go. Yeah.
And that was a really again, another part of our more recent
(34:36):
season is just knowing what to what's worth pursuing and what's
not worth pursuing. And this might be a side note,
but I had to go on some anti anxiety depression medication
last year. And it was really obvious to me
that how much I let things slidewhen I was on that medication
(34:57):
because and the way it showed upwas actually road rage.
When I was on the medication, I was like, yeah, come on in, no
worries. How funny.
Doesn't matter. It's fine.
We'll get there when we get probably busy.
And that's exactly right. And then when I came off it just
a couple of months ago, bam, it's back.
Yeah. And so, but.
And it's the same at home while I was on that medication.
(35:20):
It just knows I don't worry about it, kids, I don't worry
about it. It's everything kind of slid and
not in a kind of, I'm making it out to be a little bit more than
it was. It's just a weird thing about
your chemistry in your brain. It's just that ability to let
those things slide. I've come off it and I, I, I
have more pointy edges, don't I?And so just, but just trying to
(35:43):
carry that across or just let a lot of things slide when they
bring about a much different physical response in me
normally, I don't know, do they,do you get that physiological
kind of like real rise in your adrenaline, everything when you
get angry because of it's obvious that I do, because I do,
(36:04):
I have thrown things in occasions in the past, right?
Do you not get that? Because that might be a
difference between us. I honestly don't know why.
Don't. I Why don't I know that at 47
years old? We'll do a test later on.
Yeah, I'll push. This, I feel like, I feel like
if you, if you did, you would know.
So I, I get that quite a lot andthat's something that I'm very
(36:26):
aware of after like when I've come down, like after I've got
really angry or something like that.
That's the thing that I noticed is this sort of that adrenaline
and how how I feel less control in that, in that circumstance
with my reactions, with my words, with whatever else it is.
Yeah. So I feel like you would know if
you, if you struggle with that, just from my own experience, I
(36:49):
can't speak on your behalf, sorry, Andrew.
But like, I'm just saying from my own experience, like I'm
like, I'm very aware of that feeling that I have during those
moments. Which is was.
Quite intense and and not fun. I think you have.
But it's been such, it's been very rare and it's been very
extreme situations. Like for example the was it a
(37:11):
chocolate milkshake in the TV room?
Oh, I threw a mug of ice cream. Oh, ice cream.
But that was ice cream that thatwas not.
Normal it was. Extreme.
We have. I am previously protective of
creativity and the belief that it is the elixir that will heal
(37:32):
a lot of brokenness in this world.
There is some pretty major deception, I think, happening
through the lens of our screens and that you're doing something
by sitting on your phone checking in, what with what your
friends are doing who are also just checking in with what
you're doing. And I'm like, I am very grateful
(37:55):
that that screens just didn't have that appeal to me when I
was young because I sunk my lifeinto literally thousands of
hours of guitar playing. And through that, I've changed
people's lives. To be fair, technology wasn't
and as addictive when you were young.
(38:15):
But Qatar was right. So I and, and, and they're now
at the age that I was when I wasjust like music was everything
like I just immersed myself and I just loved it and it forged
and, and just created out my whole career and my whole it's,
(38:37):
it's a huge part of my of my beauty from brokenness theme.
I fear that those years, those precious years, those those
10,000 hours to become an expertin anything are being drained
away on pointless time in front of screens.
(39:00):
And we had a situation where we found that that a significant
amount of gaming and social media was happening at school
with our boys. And I was like, so you do that
at school and then you come and do it at home as well.
Like, and, and I got there was alot of pushback and you know,
(39:25):
everyone else's parents don't care about how much time their
kids are on screens. And I'm like, I can't help but
feel that that's not the truth. You know, you're, you're old
fashioned. That's not what school's like
these days. We do a lot of schooling on
YouTube. And OK, anyway, it got it got
really bad when because I see somuch creative and musical
(39:49):
potential in all three boys. And to some degree they're
starting to turn, I think, away from the temptation of screens
all the time. Some actually the doing the
doing, you know, and I got to a point where we we had a bit of a
row over how much screens were happening.
And I just threw a mug of ice cream on the floor in front of
(40:12):
me, not at anyone. I threw it on the floor and was
just like, I can't do this anymore.
Like I can't, I can't try and protect your creativity when
everything you want to do is to throw it in the bin.
Because this world doesn't need more kids posting on Instagram.
It needs more kids passionately pursuing and finding what's in
(40:35):
them, what makes them unique, and for that person to come out
to blossom and to offer this world some healing.
And you might become a street artist, you might become a
photographer, you might become agreat musician.
You might but just express and, and, and all those, those
(40:57):
thousands of hours are currentlybeing just, you know, I wonder
if I was a better drawer. I've, I've had this drawing in
my mind of like, you know, kids just holding boxes, walking
towards this big pit and like the boxes say like passion for
art, a love for cooking the outdoors and just walking,
(41:18):
walking up these boxes and then just throwing it all in this pit
that just says technology. And then they go back and they
find more boxes in theirs and throw them all in.
And it's just like boys, I, I like don't just watch your youth
go by on screens. I work with a young lady who
(41:40):
said to me, she, she's really into gaming.
And she said, I've, I, I looked in the stats of this game that
I've been playing on my phone. She goes, I've done 1200 hours.
Wow. And your, your viewers or
listeners or whatever can't see this room, but this is the place
(42:00):
where I'd help a lot of people with, with music and melody and
lyrics. And it's, and it's beautiful.
There's wood panelling, there's pictures that's beautifully
painted by Katie. It's designed.
There's, there's old timber, there's rustic bolts holding up
my microphones. Everything is beautifully
designed. And it took me 600 hours to
(42:23):
build. And I'm like, can I ask you with
great care and the best of intentions, what do you have to
show for the 1200 hours you spend on that game that you have
of your life that you've invested?
Show me, Put it in my hands 0 Now this is my little bugbear
(42:45):
and I'll now step off my soapbox.
I've got no idea what question was asked or anything like that.
It was like, do you like Mars bars or something?
Well, Mars I. Think I think it's not just
about kids. No, it's not at.
All totally about adults, yeah. And grandparents, yeah.
And there's a whole, yeah, a whole lot of offerings to the
(43:09):
world that are just evaporating.And our world is worse for and
our world is. What's the opposite?
Colourful. Less helpful because it's, it's
the creative pursuits that help us to reflect on the world and
on our lives in ways that writing and talking can't.
(43:32):
And so our world and our, you know, our own ability to reflect
and learn and grow is affected by the number of creative people
who are willing to, to put theirofferings forward.
And on that note, it is super scary putting your offering
forward in this world where you can be totally.
(43:54):
Destroyed. Destroyed online yeah so it's a
massive case you know massive vulnerability step to do so the.
The world wants generations and generations of consumers.
Yeah, 'cause there's more money to be made, yeah.
You're exactly right. Like you, you're so, so right.
And we've spoken about this for ourselves.
(44:14):
We're speaking about this for our kids and in preparation of
kids who are a bit older than ours.
So in a different life stage, I want to hear from you guys like
you, you looking at like, you know, because again, this is
social media, right? Like I'll look at you guys.
I'm looking at you guys now. I'm looking at you guys.
I'm like, you guys look fine, right?
Like, because this is social media, right?
This is like, Oh, we're seeing something here.
(44:34):
And you guys will be like, you know, you know your circumstance
way more than we do. But from, from my perspective,
you guys sound great like this and that that doesn't sound
heated at all. So I wanted to ask a question
why? And I'm not trying to get you
guys. I'm not trying to give you get
you guys to give me an example of you guys hate it.
I want to know like why? Why would you come on to a
(44:56):
podcast and share about difficult circumstances while
you're in the difficult season? What would be the reason why?
What? Would be the reason to do that.
Why did you guys come on here and wanting to be that
vulnerable? I think that both of us have had
probably, probably Katie longer than me, a fairly relentless
(45:17):
pursuit of the deconstruction ofego in in our lives, right?
So I for a long time, it's just a small example with my rock
band, I don't really care what Iwear on stage.
I'm not really fussed, but I have to respect that other band
(45:37):
members really do. Yeah.
OK, So I, I, we don't wear latest fashion or anything like
that. We so in an instance like this,
we don't care. I mean, I, I appreciate it what
you've just said and how we are coming across right now.
We don't really care. And I don't really care how I am
(46:00):
perceived by others anymore. And that is a debilitating thing
that most people, well, most people, a lot of people don't
ever actually overcome in their lives a paralysing fear of what
other people will think of what they're doing.
I don't care and haven't for some time.
(46:22):
And Katie, probably longer, though that was maybe part a
bigger part of your story when you were younger perhaps.
Yeah, yeah. I guess for me, the whole bubble
burst when I was in my late teenage years and my parents
split up. And so I had to face at 17 that
whole Cinderella fairy tale backthen and go.
(46:44):
I just don't think that's what life is going to be.
And then also our professions don't lend themselves to be able
to keep up with the Kardashians,put it that way.
As therapists, we and, and also the line of work we've chosen,
we've been in and out of work over the our whole marriage.
(47:05):
And so we've never been able to,as I said, keep up.
And so we have had to shift our values in terms of sticking to
what's important to us as opposed to what our culture says
is important. That kind of, would you say in
some ways was forced upon us andcontinues to be forced upon us
through our work and through thevalue, the monetary value that
(47:30):
is placed upon our work. So that's definitely part of it.
I guess to give some context about to, to to help you
understand the a little bit of the background of this current
season that we're in and in and in brief.
And there's some things I can talk about and some things that
I can't. It it hasn't been some of your
(47:51):
listeners might be like, oh, this is the bit where he said I
had an affair and and this isn'twe.
We haven't got the energy for anaffair.
Half the time I feel like enoughof a disappointment to Katie to
take on another person to, to disappoint as well.
So about probably probably a couple of months ago now, my
(48:13):
boss called me and said we we need to have a, a chat and, and
I went OK and she visited my studio.
She came into this space and shesaid you are changing lives.
We are seeing amazing sort of feedback from these people.
Just just beautiful songs come out.
(48:35):
People just being so proud of their voice for the first time
in their life, you know, haven'tbeen told for years, you Can't
Sing, you're not musical, you'vegot no talent.
And I go, well, let's see about that.
And, and we, we write a song andto have clients, one of them I
is on video even saying you savemy life.
(48:56):
Each fortnight there's been changes in the NDIS which we
were made, made aware of which which meant that as of the start
of July this year, my wage was cut by 60%.
Oh. My gosh.
So that's, and if I had a qualification then I would have
(49:19):
been fine, but I don't. So I was put on a basically a
base support worker wage as an unskilled support worker.
And my, my education was quite traumatic from, from school.
I changed schools five times andthere was significant bullying
(49:40):
throughout that experience. In very brief, I rebuked a
teacher in class who was teaching some of the most
amazingly misogynistic teaching around sex education and men's
entitlement and that kind of thing.
And I stood up and walked to thefront of the class and said all
of this is wrong. He should he shouldn't be saying
(50:01):
this in I was in year 7. I rebuked a teacher in class in
year 7. I said all of this is wrong.
No human being should be treatedthat way.
You should never take advantage of another human being, right?
This was in an all boys school and I was bullied by a year
level and a half of year 7:00 and 8:00 and I eventually had to
(50:24):
change schools, but the damage had been done.
I was in fight or flight for therest of my education.
Who's going to beat me up after class?
Am I, am I going to smash my head into the locker when I go
to the locker? It's all that kind of stuff.
So I didn't once I got the option to not go to further
education, I went, I'm out. I can't, I don't know how other
(50:44):
people do this. It's so brutal.
Like, you know, my go to university for five years, I'm
like, that would be even more hard because the kids are big.
You know, I was like a, you know, a baby elephant, if it was
like there, there was a small nail put in the ground, but the
baby elephant couldn't pull away.
And the elephant got bigger, butdidn't realise that I could have
gone on with further education. But then there weren't bullies
(51:06):
at the university. And, you know, but I was like,
Nah, like I, I just, I just can't do that.
So for my entire life, you know,I, I, to some degree, I felt
like a bit of a dance, like an educational dance.
I haven't been able to commit to, you know, a university.
So to have to be doing a job where I felt like I was commit,
(51:27):
I was producing some pretty amazing results with with some
pretty broken people and people saying this is the only form of
therapy that it has ever worked for me for them to go, no,
you're an unskilled support worker.
Brought back a lot of well, I amactually the last 30 years of
writing songs, producing songs, touring the country, writing
(51:49):
songs with other people for other people, all of those good
things that that counts for nothing.
I'm an unskilled support worker and at this stage I do just want
to say that the company I work for, Sparrow Collective, did
everything they could to continue to value me.
And there certainly wasn't the message that I was getting from
(52:12):
them. It was just a guideline rule
change on the NDIS front, which meant that this had to this
change had to come about and it impacted on my capacity to
charge of my my clients in DIS players.
So Sparrow did everything they could.
I feel valued by Sparrow and their hands are tied.
(52:32):
So this isn't their doing, etcetera, etcetera.
It's just they were as much of the victim as as I was.
So yeah, so. And at the same time another
thing happened that I can't talkabout at this point in time.
A 25 year lifelong dream has come to an end.
So I and finding myself kind of going, I've just lost short term
(52:55):
hope, long term hope, the dignity of providing for my
family. And yet I'm, I'm tied to a job
where I'm preserving people's lives.
So I can't really walk away fromthat with clear conscience.
Yeah, that that's kind of been some of the major challenges for
me. And then that sort of sort of
coincided with with Katie needing to go to four days at
(53:18):
where she works, which put a little bit more pressure on me.
So that's kind of the season that we're in anyway.
But having said that, there's many things that I'm grateful
for. And so the question was, why
would you come on this podcast? Because for SO2 parts, the first
part where I talked about the relentless deconstruction of
ego, I don't care what any of your listeners think of me or
(53:40):
us, but if there's something that they can learn or glean
from what we have to say, then that's awesome.
Yeah. And two, I would like to think,
I don't know, maybe in six months time we could come on the
show again and we can talk aboutthe processing that has happened
through this time and how much better we are as people because
(54:01):
of this experience that we're currently in.
Yeah. And and that there are seasons
and some seasons start and they're awful, but they come to
an end and there's great riches and rewards on the other side.
And that's, that can be, you know, a picture for for having a
partner as well, I guess. But when you think that it's the
darkest of dark winter, it's notalways going to be that that
(54:24):
way, Yeah. A nice nature metaphor there,
but we were reflecting on that last night.
Just that's probably the the biggest thing that we would want
to encourage people who are in new relationships is to see out
those hard seasons. Because when you get to the
other side and you don't think you ever will.
(54:44):
But that truly is what has made our relationship richer and
stronger because we have got through it together.
And in the midst of it, we haven't thought that.
But once you're through it and you look back, you go, that was
an awful season. But we did it, you know, side by
(55:06):
side, arm in arm, whatever you like to, however you like to
think of it. So, and I think unfortunately a
lot of relationships don't get to that point anymore.
I think a lot of relationships go, this is too hard.
It's I don't know if it's a choice or what it is, but I
think a lot of relationships aremissing out on that opportunity
to look back and go, yes, OK, wedid, we got through that one.
(55:29):
So when, when the next season, because there will be another
difficult season when the next difficult season comes up.
We've done it before. We know we can do it again.
And probably that, that idea of life just getting better and
better and better. I think we've we've had to
accept that that's not always the case, you know, doesn't get
better and better from season toseason.
(55:50):
It ebbs and flows. It goes around in circles.
And yeah, that that's kind of life.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
And it's life, regardless of if you have a partner or not.
And I think some people or if you're with that partner or not,
we have those things as individuals.
I think some people's approach to relationship can be we're in
a bad time right now. It must be this, this
(56:11):
relationship. So if we this isn't, this isn't
working, we can't see through it.
So we're going to, we're going to say, I think it's broken.
I don't think it's working. I don't think it's right.
And then finish it. And then I think what happens is
we have these things anyways, these ebbs and flows and waves
that people experience. You have them.
That's what life is. But when you can have that
(56:32):
beauty of growing together and all of the, the little journeys
that you guys have mentioned today, working through those
things and, and the kind of puzzle pieces of learning
yourself and your partner and your marriage together.
You. Get stronger in those waves and
those those waves. It's more of a team related
thing. And I think there's such a
(56:53):
beauty and just putting that work in and putting those that
intentional effort into understanding what's happening
with both of you. It's it's you guys have touched
on multiple things that actuallymake this really clear.
It's not an equation because nothing is an equation in a
relationship. But this like you, you talked
about how, you know, we discussed, we discovered that
(57:13):
talking late at night about important things just doesn't
work. And This is why it doesn't work.
And I think a lot of people think, oh, he's not hearing me,
she's not hearing me, They're not hearing me that I'm trying
to have this conversation. It's not working.
And there's not much intentionaltime on spent on why might they
not be hearing me? And then even the active
listening that you've spoken about to like so many
miscommunications happen in relationships, so many
(57:35):
miscommunications, regardless ofthe relationship, we miss
miscommunicate. We misunderstand all the time.
And so that active listening andintentionality helps to weave
through some of that doesn't mean it always happens, but it's
a, it's an intentional habit to build.
And that helps you then facing these waves, it helps you
understand each other more. It's like that intentional
(57:56):
exploring. And I, we love that.
That's something that we love doing together.
Sometimes easier said than done,but learning more about how we
work always easier said than done.
Learning more about how we work as individuals has always helped
us to face the difficult times together, which is invaluable.
I think as your kids get older, you in some sense, you know, our
(58:21):
marriage is number one, kids are#2 but you include them in that
process of communicating and learning about communicating.
And you become this larger team in a sense.
Like how can we as a family negotiate this and, and, and
communicate better? And so you kind of bring them
into those learnings and understandings and sitting on
(58:43):
the couch and chewing the fat and all that sort of stuff.
I think that's a really lovely part of kids getting older as
well. Wow.
Well, there's so many things that I would want to talk to you
guys. About, you know, I've got like a
number of questions. I'm like, oh, just.
Keep going and keep going, but we need to wrap it up
unfortunately, but hopefully we can touch base again in the near
future and and chat with you guys a bit more.
(59:03):
But thank you so much for takingthe time to be vulnerable and
honest and share from your hearts.
We really appreciate it. And we, I believe that this is
going to be really impactful forthe people listening as well.
Thanks so much, guys. Thanks.
Guys, lovely to hold space with you guys and keep doing what
you're doing because you're creating a platform for people
to reflect and to ask questions and to feel normal about what
(59:25):
they're going through. And I think, yeah, not feeling
alone is just such a powerful thing.
It's very powerful. Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. Awesome.
Awesome. Thanks guys.
I had virtually no heated discussion skills through my
youth. Until about 24 hours into our
marriage. Yeah, to say, come on, fight.
Come on, let's start this out and you move forward.
Hello and welcome back to Honey.We need a chat.
(00:21):
We are a podcast all about communication and relationships,
and we believe that when communication dies, bad things
happen. So we love to bring
conversations to you that are uplifting to your relationship.
And this week is no different. We have an incredible guest
episode to bring to you guys. We are chatting to Andrew and
Katie Kitchen. We've known Andrew and Katie
Kitchen for a number of years and when we are trying to think
of guests we wanted on the podcast, they came straight to
(00:43):
mind. So we reached out to them and
interestingly, they responded saying actually this had been a
very difficult for their marriage and that they didn't
know if they would be the right people to talk on the podcast.
Normally that would probably give us a little bit of pause
and we'd probably say, Yep, no worries, we can come back to it
when you're feeling ready for it.
But because we know Andrew and Katie and we know their hearts
and we've seen how they share and uplift other people through
(01:05):
their experiences, we thought this might be actually a super
unique opportunity to talk to and hear from a couple that's in
the trenches at the moment and just learn from what they've
been observing, what they've gone through, and see what they
had on their hearts to share from that space.
So we put that out to them. We said, you know what, no
worries. If you don't want to come,
that's totally fine. But if this is something you're
(01:25):
interested in, we would love to have you on the episode anyway.
And they said yes, which we're really excited about.
This conversation is raw, it's authentic.
It's not your everyday conversation.
It's not the normal kind of interview you'd get from a
couple on a relationships podcast.
We're hearing from people that are in a difficult time.
And Andrew and Katie were fantastic.
They have such wisdom. They're incredible communicators
(01:47):
and they've done so much in their lives to help other
people. So we're really excited about
this episode. We're excited to see how it
helps you guys, and we're excited to bring it to you.
So we hope you enjoy this chat with Andrew and Katie Kitchen.
Honey, we need to chat. Well, thank you so much to
(02:13):
Andrew and Katie Kitchen for being here today.
We're really excited to be interviewing you guys.
We, I have personally known Andrew and Katie for a number of
years and Blair has known them for a few years as well.
We've been at church together and you guys have been just such
a blessing to our family and we've really enjoyed seeing your
family grow and being a part of that with youth and stuff.
(02:33):
So very excited to be chatting to you guys.
You're just really encouraging and really fun.
And when we actually approached Andrew and Katie to do this
interview, we were just wanted to chat to them because they've
got so much wisdom and experience to talk about.
But they actually responded saying this is quite a tough
time for you guys personally. And so we thought, oh, that's
fine. But if we also put the offer out
(02:55):
there, if you're happy to chat from a difficult stage and share
some of that wisdom that you're experiencing right now, we're
also open to that, just to let you know.
But no worries. And you guys came back and said
that you are willing to share from that space, which is really
huge because it's not not everybody would be.
In fact, most people probably wouldn't be.
And so we just really want to honour you guys are so fun.
(03:17):
You're so you're, you got so much experience and you've done
so much for people. But also, this is a different
tone to a conversation as well than just those things.
So this is an amazing couple andwe're going to get them to
introduce themselves because they've both done some really
cool things. But we also just wanted to leave
some space for this conversationis a raw one.
And we're really, really honoured that you're willing to
(03:38):
be here and have that conversation with us today.
So thank you for being here. And I would like to just ask you
guys, even though we've already spoken about this, but so
everybody can hear a little bit about it, what is it that you're
doing at the moment in your working and serving space and?
OK, so I, I guess if you start with the, the meta narrative of
(04:00):
my life is, is beauty from brokenness.
And if you drill that down on a number of levels, I write songs
with people who live with disability and various
challenges and illnesses and allsorts of things.
So I help them tell their own stories and validate them in
that space. I write my own songs and
(04:22):
typically those songs when when I'm in charge and I'm writing
for my own enjoyment. It's about people who have
overcome and almost obstacles and seen a new season come about
in their life. So it's I basically write
resurrection songs in story. Beauty from brokenness also
(04:43):
looks like fixing things around the house, looking at things on
hard rubbish piles and giving things new life, fixing,
repairing, painting, sanding, all sorts of practical things.
Because I've realised I'm quite tactile and, and whilst the work
I do is very rewarding and, and,and I feel like I'm genuinely
(05:05):
making a contribution into people's lives, I see no tactile
change. I just see people going.
That was great. Thank you very much.
I can't believe I've written a song with you.
And I can't wait to play this tomy family.
I'm like, awesome. And then they leave and I kind
of feel, well, they've got it. And so I need a combination of,
(05:28):
you know, building new things for my chicken coop or doing a
big excavations so that we've got new options and I don't
know, like home renovations and things.
So, so my work is music in varying capacities, but my
vocation I guess is is resurrection of all sorts of
(05:48):
different things. I've been really encouraged by
some of the reflections I've seen even just on your Facebook
posts that you've shared over the years as well.
Andrew, your writing has been a huge blessing to so many people.
I actually was introduced to youthrough the band and a sceptic
back, back back in the day, my friends were obsessed with you.
But over the years and all the work that you've done, you're
(06:09):
writing, even in your Facebook reflections that you've shared
sometimes has been really deep and very relatable.
So I can see how that's just transformational work, but I
love that practical outworking of it as well.
Seeing actual physical tactile work come together.
I can understand why that would be an important part of it as
(06:29):
well for you. So that's cool.
Thanks for sharing about you, Katie.
So I am a nature therapist in myprivate practise, which is a
term I kind of made up because there was nothing out there that
was what I wanted to do. And that is to remind people of
the healing and helpful and teachable qualities of nature.
(06:53):
So for kids, that looks like horticultural activities and
different things, as well as mindfulness and sensory
activities. And for adults, it looks a bit a
little bit more reflective. And it's just, it's just
beautiful space to hold for people.
And I don't have to do much talking, which I love just
nature and our creation does that for me.
(07:16):
And I combine that with working three days a week with children
at a big hospital in Melbourne in that garden therapy space as
well. So it's, it's an honour and a
privilege to be able to help people along their journey just
by doing something that for somepeople is really common sense.
When I get outside, I go for a walk or I touch the ground, I
(07:36):
dig something, I look at the trees.
But for a lot of people, we've just slowly become disconnected
from nature. And so, and it happens really
gradually. So most people kind of don't
realise that it's happened. But yeah, just just reminding
people that that they have that free source of therapy available
to them anywhere, anytime, and they don't need me.
(07:59):
Yeah. So I'm not a good salesperson
for my own business, I should say.
I kind of encourage people to a place where they don't need me
anymore. But yeah, it's just, it's really
just a reminder in terms of that.
Yeah, that holding that space. So that's what I get to do,
which is lovely. That's so cool.
And then I have my garden at home as well.
But I tend to do the physical stuff and see things grow and
(08:20):
change and seasons and all thosebeautiful lessons that the
garden can offer. Well I love how just innately
therapeutic nature is. And you're so right, I feel very
disconnected from nature becauseI'm not much of an outdoor
person, but when I am out there,it's crazy how grounding it is
and just just slowing down and everything.
So I can imagine how impactful that would be.
(08:40):
And I have some friends that have experienced your nature
therapy and they love it. So you're doing good work.
Thank you. Thank you.
So thanks, thanks for sharing with us guys.
We're really excited to be chatting with you, as we said
before and and it's obvious through the work that you guys
do in the hearts that you have how focused on being authentic
(09:01):
and also walking with people that you both are as a couple
and as individuals. So it's an honour to hear your
story in a place that's maybe a little bit uncomfortable.
But you know, our podcast is allabout communication and in
relationships and the idea of building and reinforcing that as
people step into their relationships and how important
(09:22):
that can be when you're navigating a a difficult time,
as you're navigating at the moment and the waves that people
go through. And all of us would have
experienced ups and downs relationally.
Communication probably is something that gets tested.
I'm sure there's a few obstaclesthat probably come in in that
time. So how, how are you guys finding
at this moment that communication your, your culture
(09:44):
around communication as a couplehas been challenged or what
obstacles are you finding that you're navigating at the moment?
I guess to start with, I'd just like to acknowledge that, you
know, this is a really vulnerable space for us at the
moment. We've come off a a month of
sickness for starters, amongst everything else that's
happening. And so our hearts are really to
(10:07):
encourage other people along thejourney because as you said,
it's definitely not all roses. And no, what's the other thing?
Not all roses. What is it?
Roses. Bed of roses, a bed of roses,
rainbows, rainbows and lollipopsand unicorns.
But we, you know, our heart is to really honour, honour and
encourage other people. But at the same time we have to
(10:28):
honour our relationship. And so we come as vulnerable
people. But but we need to go gently
today. So in terms of barriers to
communication, well, I think probably for us our our last
decade maybe has been learning and understanding more about
ourselves and really digging into that a bit.
(10:49):
And so I know for my barriers tocommunication, I have this
little kind of habit that I get into where I kind of relate
myself to Mary and Martha. Well, actually Martha and I kind
of go and I go and I go and I try and be that martyr and I
have my own little pity party and I put others needs before my
(11:11):
own and then it all kind of spirals until it explodes.
So that's my my tendency. And so I've had to come up with
a bit of a self care plan that recognises that and tries to cut
in and intentionally deescalate before it explodes.
And how am I going with that, Andrew?
(11:33):
It depends on the day. Yeah, yeah, I there there are
like probably one thing that hashelped in the the last season is
being a bit more intentional about Sabbath and going on a
Sunday. We really try and stop, we turn
our phones upside down, face this the the bench if where we
(11:54):
can and we just slow down time. That's that's what we're trying
to do And and yes, sometimes that's just sitting on the couch
and and giving each other a footmassage and and just talking and
stuff like that. During the other six days.
Goodness me it half the time it feels like a tornado of activity
(12:15):
and and to do lists and and and stuff.
There isn't a lot of some evenings, some evenings we can
have a little touch of Sabbath and just sitting in
communication. But yeah, that the, the schedule
that three boys keep and we hosta student as well.
(12:38):
So that's, that's four boys in ahouse.
And then Katie's got, you know, her own things going on as well.
So it can be can be difficult toto to protect that space.
And with, with the nature of my work, I don't do 9:00 to 5:00
Monday to Friday, my shifts kindof a move around.
And, and so there isn't to, to some degree we've got a rhythm
(13:02):
and a flow to our working week and our time together, but to
also some degree which we don't,it depends on what clients I
have on in the week. Katie's just gone through a
season of covering off more timeat work to fill the fulfil
someone else's work obligations that left.
So, but now we're out of that season and she'll go back to
(13:25):
having two days a week of not going into the city.
So that will be helpful, I think.
So it maybe was a combination ofa number of things that made
this season particularly difficult.
Yeah. Yeah.
So I think we have intentionallytried to make our lives simple.
And I think that if we break it right down, we don't actually
(13:51):
run around like chicken. We don't have to run around like
chickens. However, I think that is part of
our coping strategy. Both of us just try and do more
to feel that sense of whatever else is happening.
So if we're feeling less than insome other space, well, we will
(14:11):
do more. Compensate.
To compensate. And so for me that will spiral
as I said before, and explode. But I think for you, Andrew,
it's more like it will wind you down and you will become more
weary. Would you would you agree with
that? Yeah, maybe.
Yeah. And so so we do try and live a
simple life and I think that a lot of people do over schedule
(14:36):
their lives and we've tried really hard not to, but I think
it's that self inflicted busy that we get caught up on.
Yeah, do. You do you find that you
mentioned as well the importanceof Sabbath and how you want to
be having a Sabbath and at nighttimes you want to have a
Sabbath. Do you find that it's something
that's in your mind even amongstthe busyness?
(14:58):
Or do you find as as the thing to forget easily because you're
so busy the the need for Sabbathif that makes sense or the
priority of it in your relationship?
I think the fact that we we actually are intentional about a
whole day. Yeah.
Means that you you, it's pretty hard to forget when it's a whole
(15:18):
day. But if we were like, oh, we're
going to do Sabbath between 7:00and 7:25 every after every
night, like stuff would come up,you know, like that we would
just forget. But the fact that we wake up on
a Sunday and we go, today is a day of rest and a day of turning
off our minds from the usual work and To Do List.
(15:41):
Yeah. Mm, hmm.
Mm hmm. I think it's harder to ignore
when you actually set aside a day and it it is tempting to do
stuff and it's it's and, and it's not like we just sit there
and twiddle our thumbs. You, you.
Sometimes we do and it looks. Like it is.
Yeah, yeah, it, it looks like, yeah, eyes open for the 1st 5
(16:05):
minutes and then and then heads back.
But like I might find Sabbath rest in just working with my
hands and just doing a small project, you know, I'm not, I'm
not going to like repave the whole backyard like on a Sabbath
day and go, this was Sabbath rest.
But I might just sweep up some leaves and put them in the
(16:27):
compost and fill the chickens grains and and sit down with the
dog for a bit and just mow our tiny little lawn.
Do a do a little bit more sweeping, maybe a little bit of
leaf blowing and feel like I'm observing the rhythms of rest
and restoration in my body. And also just keeping an energy
(16:50):
going, you know, and that that can start in its and of itself
can still the mind. Yeah.
The enjoyment of simple, non demanding tasks I work with, I
work with people who are quite high needs and demanding and I
need to almost I, I would use the word intercede between them
(17:15):
and their creativity to work outwhat story I can draw out.
And at the end of the session, sometimes I, I, I fall into this
position of my hands just falling like down.
And I'm just like, OK, that was full on.
So sometimes I'm left feeling quite rattled.
And so, yeah, a Sabbath rest dayis, is a very beautiful, yes,
(17:38):
non demanding space to refill. Yeah.
And that's important too, is what you were sharing before
about how you rest. You know, that's been something
that I've genuinely really struggled with is like knowing
how to rest. Like, you know, it's that
balance of should I just be sitting down and twiddling my
thumbs or should I be going overthere and doing that?
(18:00):
Like it's just it's really hard.And and I know for myself when I
don't get rest again, like I getmore rattled.
I don't get to I can't process things as much.
I'm not as rejuvenated or or whatever else as well.
So understanding yourself and how you rest I can see is.
The important one little thing that may help in that space is
(18:20):
preparing to rest. Yeah.
So. So Jewish people would prepare
all of the food that they're going to eat on the Saturday.
Yeah, that's awesome. And and clean up and tidy up
and, you know, so it wasn't likethey woke up to a huge pile of
dishes. Yeah, which we woke up to this
morning, but today's not the Sabbath, so.
(18:45):
Yeah, I love that idea of actually, because that also
feeds into the intentionality about setting aside that time
too, because you're planning forit and you're thinking about it
and you're making it, putting those boundaries around it to
make it work the way that's going to be the healthiest.
So. And we've actually ironically
been talking about this a lot recently and been wanting to put
that in on a Sunday. So it's nice to hear you guys
(19:07):
reflecting on it too, because I think that's another little
nudge, yeah. And I think to do it, a couple
of things to to note is that is that one, it becomes a habit.
It's like any other habit. It's clunky at first, but then
eventually it kind of becomes part of your family culture.
And two is our boys. We're not into it at all.
Yeah, yeah. And so we, we encourage them at
(19:29):
the start, but then we never force them to do that.
But we're modelling it. So we're modelling it every week
and they can, you know, we, we say to them, we'd like to have a
no tech day. It's the Sabbath, no tech.
And they might choose to do thator not, but we're still
encouraging them along that path.
So you usually get pushed back from your kids.
(19:50):
I think if you don't then that'sprobably unusual.
Yeah, they'll be bizarre, and I think it's such a beautiful
blessing to give them because they're not going to get that.
Especially in how busy and full every moment of life is these
days with the layered inputs is like social media and work and
technology and media in general and all this stuff school,
(20:13):
they're not going to get that outside of the home.
So if you can put that in place as a rhythm that you've shown
them, regardless of if they takeit on board for themselves or
not, at least they've experienced that and they'll, I
think that's a a huge example that they're that will be
invaluable for them as they age.Absolutely.
Don't you think it's just the best gift you can give them if
(20:35):
they understand 6 days of work, one day of oh.
My gosh, yes, absolutely. What a gift to give them.
Yeah, because it will set them apart and hold them in a good
space for the rest of their life.
What a great habit. If we circle back to
communication, given the nature of this podcast again, one I
just want to say to your listeners, I don't always sound
(20:56):
like this, but. Neither do.
IAA near a near three week long throat infection that's that's
tickling my throat. Neither of us has slept through
the night for two to three weeks.
Anyway these all these things can affect the way you feel
about everything. But anyway, communication.
I am a overthinker, classic overthinker cyclonic kind of
(21:22):
level and not spiral. Everything's bad, not, not at
all, but just thinking right. So one thing where Katie and I
are are it's definitely a work in progress space.
Even next April, I think we're up to 20 years and we we still,
we still haven't nailed this. When I think we will.
(21:44):
Sorry. When, when to talk about things,
right. So like, if significant things
need to be discussed, if we do that anything after like 8:30 or
9, like I won't sleep until 2:00AM, yeah, I'll be lying there
going man. Like I, I will tell myself
(22:07):
sometimes, not all the time, butsometimes I'll tell myself some
pretty awful stories about how I'm going as a father and as a
husband and yeah, just so we need to be.
And, and then of course, you wake up feeling dreadful the
next morning. And then the how you're feeling
dreadful physically speaks back into what you've you're thinking
about yourself. And yes, you know, so then you
(22:29):
start to go down. That's when you start to go down
the spiral. Yeah.
But probably one thing, one goodand valuable lesson and
something that we still use fromtime to time is called the
practise of active listening, right?
So I will talk to Katie. That's something that I'm
(22:49):
thinking and feeling. Then instead of her responding
to what I've just said, she willrepeat back to me in her own
words what she has heard, right?So she'll say, So what I'm
hearing is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Is that accurate? And I will either say yes or no.
And this because so many people,and as soon as you start to do
(23:14):
this yourself, you start to see it in others, is that when
you're talking, they get this glazed look over their eyes and
it's like, I'm not listening to you.
I'm thinking about my rebuttal. And particularly so when there's
a heightened emotional experience behind it.
So in the workplace, if, if you know, I mean, I'm not sure you
(23:37):
guys are your workplace, aren't you?
So right. But in, in a workplace where
you've got 50 people and you're and you're, you're butting up
against someone, if a, if a difficult conversation or, or a
heavy conversation needs to occur, it really is invaluable.
And so to, to, to, yeah, you're not just rebutting, you're
(23:57):
going. What I heard is this.
Is that right? Mm Hmm.
Is that what you're wanting to say to me?
OK, well, if that's the case, then this is how I feel.
And then you swap. Yeah.
And I think that has it come up a lot more in the last decade,
hasn't it? You would well have often said
to me, this is how I'm perceiving this situation.
(24:20):
It may not be how you intend or your your intention, but this is
how I'm receiving it. And that can be helpful upon
reflection for both of us to kind of go, well, why am I
perceiving it this way? So he's perceiving it this way.
I have to back off. I have to go gently or I have to
clarify things and, and I guess two things #1 as a therapist,
(24:45):
reflection is the most underrated skill in the world.
So I think all of us need to build in time in our lives to
reflect. And that can be linked to prayer
and meditation, but it might notbe.
But #2 the skill of active listening is really good with
kids, too. Because, yeah, if we often as
parents, we just wanna say it'llbe all right, you'll be all
right, can't get up or whatever.But we just stopping and
(25:07):
listening and hearing what they're saying and then
empathising with them. Yeah.
So powerful. Not trying to fix that problem
because usually we think it's a small problem anyway.
Just fix it so that active listing with kids is often even
more challenging than with adults.
Absolutely. Yeah, wow, that's so.
(25:28):
That's so valuable. Yeah, we had AI, don't know if
you noticed when you were sharing then.
And we sort of, I mean, I had a bit of a response.
Yeah. When you're saying about how you
sit in bed till 2:00 AM and like, you know, this was our
conversation yesterday. We're driving back.
We were away for the weekend. It was a good weekend.
And I'm tired. Like we're tired.
You know, holidays when you're aparent, holidays are fun, but
(25:51):
they are so tiring. I am so exhausted.
Anyway, on the way back, it was like I was having one of those
moments of I and then I recognise it was, it's very fear
driven. Like I have this incredible fear
of my kids not wanting anything to do with me when I'm when
they're older and, and everything going through that of
(26:15):
I'm the worst dad, I'm the worst, you know, all this sort
of stuff. And, and you know, it's just
really refreshing here. And you say that, Andrew,
because I think is a big part of, of what I've been noticing
too. And, and another thing I'm
really wanting from this podcastis that when you hear that
someone else is struggling with something similar, you know, it
normalises your, what you're going through because a big part
(26:38):
of what I was feeling yesterday,I said to you, Amy, I said, I
just feel silly. Like I feel so silly like with
myself at the moment, like the way that I'm processing, the way
that I'm thinking or whatever else.
I just feel silly, like I shouldn't be doing it.
So it just validates the struggle.
But the thoughts, you know, you don't want to validate those
(26:58):
thoughts because as we walk workthrough, it's like, why would
that even be? Why do you feel that?
But yeah, that it was just just really resonated with what you
just said then, yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. So we have to deliberately and
intentionally carve out time that's not night time.
Yes, to connect with each other,which is always been a
(27:18):
challenge, hasn't it? Yes, always and so.
So how do you do that? How look, can you, can you walk
us through how you do that then?So you know, you, you know, you
don't want to really do past 8:30 or 9.
So then how do you find that time?
What does that process actually look like?
Well the IT it can happen in twodifferent scenarios and not and
(27:41):
we don't do this often enough, but occasionally we will just go
for a walk. Nice.
Occasionally it can also happen when we're side by side working
on something in the garden, so yeah.
That's, that's actually often what happens isn't it 'cause we
have this intention to go outside and have this lovely day
(28:04):
working side by side and often it will end up in tension.
Discussion. Yeah, yeah.
No tension. Yeah, right.
Like it often because we've sideby side.
Would that be fair? Yeah.
Ohh. I think that when we go into the
backyard, Katie has an unwrittenlist in her mind of things that
I'm gonna do. And then I just kind of, I just
(28:24):
kind of free format. I go, I might rake these leaves.
The grass is a bit long on the lawn.
I'll do that. I didn't clean up that pile of
wood from when I did that job the other day.
I'll just do that. And Katie's like, when's he
gonna get to my XY or Z? And I'm like, and she she might
have mentioned it already, but I'm just like, aren't we just
having a day of just kind of pottering in the backyard?
(28:48):
But sometimes one of one of the little key phrases that I have
said and Katie have said, if there's a long silence and we're
working near each other, one of us will start a sentence with
this, these exact words, I guess.
And then it will go on, right. I guess when you said the other
night that blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, it made me feel
(29:09):
blah, blah, blah. Or I guess, you know, it's
funny, we say those two words, Iguess.
And I've heard it and I've said it and, and I've gone, I've just
said it again. So I don't know that that's a
little crack in the door to I want to talk about.
To have a conversation, yeah. It's a gentle yeah, knock,
knock, knock. And that was.
(29:29):
Just random that it happened. It wasn't an intentional phrase
that you decided on. Yeah, it just sounded great, I
guess. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it's it's like, it's easier to say than like, Katie,
I wanna, I wanna talk to you about how usurp you usurped my
authority as a parent over our children at the dinner table the
other night. Or pointing the finger, that's
(29:50):
just, it doesn't go down so welleither.
No. But at the moment, our main
connecting time is actually Monday morning, 8:30 to 9:30 and
I'll tell you why. In the morning, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because our kids head off to
school at 8:30. They ride their bikes to school
and that's the first time in theweek that we can kind of go, all
right. And so we we sit down, we look
(30:13):
at our week, we connect and that's when anything that's
niggling will kind of bring up. But I think we're getting better
at bringing things up as they come up.
Because I. Think we're better at not going
into that defensive kind of modeand just receiving it, thinking
about it and and kind of, you know, filtering it into our
(30:37):
relationship, aren't we? Yeah.
And and to be respectful to bothsets of our parents, like no, no
two parents can ever be the fullGannett.
All of us, all of us nail it in certain columns and we're all
the we're all the work in progress in other columns.
(30:58):
So when I grew up, I never saw my mother or father have a
heated discussion, not once, right, That was taken offline.
So maybe they had that conversation when they went for
a walk around the suburbs and ormaybe they took it to their
(31:19):
bedroom and did it in hushed tones.
But I had virtually no heated discussion skills through my
youth. Until about 24 hours into our
marriage. So, yeah, so there was some some
(31:39):
learning in that space, yes. Yeah, yeah.
So what would that look like foryou then, Andrew, you, you
mentioned that you you struggledwith those skills.
Would you just clam up? Would you?
Yeah. Turtle shrink and disappear into
music. Yeah.
So how was that for you then, Katie?
(32:01):
Like, so obviously probably quite frustrating.
Was it 'cause you're trying to have a conversation?
Like what was that like for yourside if he went into turtle
mode? Yeah, it was total frustration,
but we learnt about our familiesof origin very early.
Yes, but that's been a continualunpacking, hasn't it?
Because something we've just realised recently and again,
(32:24):
full respect to our parents is that Andrew's family tendency is
to share and and share stories, a great storyteller.
So share, share, share. My family tendencies are wait to
be asked. Yeah, so.
When we're in a dynamic, it's it's Andrew will share, share,
share, share, share. And so, you know, obviously, or
(32:44):
if he cares, he'll ask. Or if anyone in a, you know,
social dynamic care, they'll ask.
And I don't know if that's a British kind of thing back a few
days, regulations, I'm not sure from my family, but it was
really evident at one of our recent birthday parties, wasn't
it? And it was just an interesting
thing to observe. And so, and I don't know if it's
(33:05):
a that way you can control the narrative a bit and control
what's being talked about or I don't know.
It's just it's really interesting to observe about
ourselves. But yes, when Andrew Wood
turtle, I would find that frustrating and I don't think I
ever really chased after you, but I wanted to to say, come on,
(33:28):
fight, come on, let's stop this out.
Let's work it out and get out and and you move forward.
But I had to really back off on that and respect that he needed
time and I was probably going topresent a better version of
myself if I took time as well and just.
Just. Lowered down my my stress level
(33:51):
so it was going to work better for both of us.
If it. Took time, but then finding that
time is really hard. So often we had to let it go.
And that's probably another really good thing, isn't it?
Sometimes the things I've been, we've been on holidays before
and day one or two I'm like, man, we need to address this and
we need to address this and we need to address all these
(34:12):
things. We won't address them on
holidays because that's not fair.
We'll address them when we get home, and then by the time we
get home, I've forgotten everything.
Yeah. So that's a really kind of cool.
Sometimes you just gotta quest and respect.
Frank hands. So sometimes you just gotta let
things go. Yeah.
And that was a really again, another part of our more recent
(34:36):
season is just knowing what to what's worth pursuing and what's
not worth pursuing. And this might be a side note,
but I had to go on some anti anxiety depression medication
last year. And it was really obvious to me
that how much I let things slidewhen I was on that medication
(34:57):
because and the way it showed upwas actually road rage.
When I was on the medication, I was like, yeah, come on in, no
worries. How funny.
Doesn't matter. It's fine.
We'll get there when we get probably busy.
And that's exactly right. And then when I came off it just
a couple of months ago, bam, it's back.
Yeah. And so, but.
And it's the same at home while I was on that medication.
(35:20):
It just knows I don't worry about it, kids, I don't worry
about it. It's everything kind of slid and
not in a kind of, I'm making it out to be a little bit more than
it was. It's just a weird thing about
your chemistry in your brain. It's just that ability to let
those things slide. I've come off it and I, I, I
have more pointy edges, don't I?And so just, but just trying to
(35:43):
carry that across or just let a lot of things slide when they
bring about a much different physical response in me
normally, I don't know, do they,do you get that physiological
kind of like real rise in your adrenaline, everything when you
get angry because of it's obvious that I do, because I do,
(36:04):
I have thrown things in occasions in the past, right?
Do you not get that? Because that might be a
difference between us. I honestly don't know why.
Don't. I Why don't I know that at 47
years old? We'll do a test later on.
Yeah, I'll push. This, I feel like, I feel like
if you, if you did, you would know.
So I, I get that quite a lot andthat's something that I'm very
(36:26):
aware of after like when I've come down, like after I've got
really angry or something like that.
That's the thing that I noticed is this sort of that adrenaline
and how how I feel less control in that, in that circumstance
with my reactions, with my words, with whatever else it is.
Yeah. So I feel like you would know if
you, if you struggle with that, just from my own experience, I
(36:49):
can't speak on your behalf, sorry, Andrew.
But like, I'm just saying from my own experience, like I'm
like, I'm very aware of that feeling that I have during those
moments. Which is was.
Quite intense and and not fun. I think you have.
But it's been such, it's been very rare and it's been very
extreme situations. Like for example the was it a
(37:11):
chocolate milkshake in the TV room?
Oh, I threw a mug of ice cream. Oh, ice cream.
But that was ice cream that thatwas not.
Normal it was. Extreme.
We have. I am previously protective of
creativity and the belief that it is the elixir that will heal
(37:32):
a lot of brokenness in this world.
There is some pretty major deception, I think, happening
through the lens of our screens and that you're doing something
by sitting on your phone checking in, what with what your
friends are doing who are also just checking in with what
you're doing. And I'm like, I am very grateful
(37:55):
that that screens just didn't have that appeal to me when I
was young because I sunk my lifeinto literally thousands of
hours of guitar playing. And through that, I've changed
people's lives. To be fair, technology wasn't
and as addictive when you were young.
(38:15):
But Qatar was right. So I and, and, and they're now
at the age that I was when I wasjust like music was everything
like I just immersed myself and I just loved it and it forged
and, and just created out my whole career and my whole it's,
(38:37):
it's a huge part of my of my beauty from brokenness theme.
I fear that those years, those precious years, those those
10,000 hours to become an expertin anything are being drained
away on pointless time in front of screens.
(39:00):
And we had a situation where we found that that a significant
amount of gaming and social media was happening at school
with our boys. And I was like, so you do that
at school and then you come and do it at home as well.
Like, and, and I got there was alot of pushback and you know,
(39:25):
everyone else's parents don't care about how much time their
kids are on screens. And I'm like, I can't help but
feel that that's not the truth. You know, you're, you're old
fashioned. That's not what school's like
these days. We do a lot of schooling on
YouTube. And OK, anyway, it got it got
really bad when because I see somuch creative and musical
(39:49):
potential in all three boys. And to some degree they're
starting to turn, I think, away from the temptation of screens
all the time. Some actually the doing the
doing, you know, and I got to a point where we we had a bit of a
row over how much screens were happening.
And I just threw a mug of ice cream on the floor in front of
(40:12):
me, not at anyone. I threw it on the floor and was
just like, I can't do this anymore.
Like I can't, I can't try and protect your creativity when
everything you want to do is to throw it in the bin.
Because this world doesn't need more kids posting on Instagram.
It needs more kids passionately pursuing and finding what's in
(40:35):
them, what makes them unique, and for that person to come out
to blossom and to offer this world some healing.
And you might become a street artist, you might become a
photographer, you might become agreat musician.
You might but just express and, and, and all those, those
(40:57):
thousands of hours are currentlybeing just, you know, I wonder
if I was a better drawer. I've, I've had this drawing in
my mind of like, you know, kids just holding boxes, walking
towards this big pit and like the boxes say like passion for
art, a love for cooking the outdoors and just walking,
(41:18):
walking up these boxes and then just throwing it all in this pit
that just says technology. And then they go back and they
find more boxes in theirs and throw them all in.
And it's just like boys, I, I like don't just watch your youth
go by on screens. I work with a young lady who
(41:40):
said to me, she, she's really into gaming.
And she said, I've, I, I looked in the stats of this game that
I've been playing on my phone. She goes, I've done 1200 hours.
Wow. And your, your viewers or
listeners or whatever can't see this room, but this is the place
(42:00):
where I'd help a lot of people with, with music and melody and
lyrics. And it's, and it's beautiful.
There's wood panelling, there's pictures that's beautifully
painted by Katie. It's designed.
There's, there's old timber, there's rustic bolts holding up
my microphones. Everything is beautifully
designed. And it took me 600 hours to
(42:23):
build. And I'm like, can I ask you with
great care and the best of intentions, what do you have to
show for the 1200 hours you spend on that game that you have
of your life that you've invested?
Show me, Put it in my hands 0 Now this is my little bugbear
(42:45):
and I'll now step off my soapbox.
I've got no idea what question was asked or anything like that.
It was like, do you like Mars bars or something?
Well, Mars I. Think I think it's not just
about kids. No, it's not at.
All totally about adults, yeah. And grandparents, yeah.
And there's a whole, yeah, a whole lot of offerings to the
(43:09):
world that are just evaporating.And our world is worse for and
our world is. What's the opposite?
Colourful. Less helpful because it's, it's
the creative pursuits that help us to reflect on the world and
on our lives in ways that writing and talking can't.
(43:32):
And so our world and our, you know, our own ability to reflect
and learn and grow is affected by the number of creative people
who are willing to, to put theirofferings forward.
And on that note, it is super scary putting your offering
forward in this world where you can be totally.
(43:54):
Destroyed. Destroyed online yeah so it's a
massive case you know massive vulnerability step to do so the.
The world wants generations and generations of consumers.
Yeah, 'cause there's more money to be made, yeah.
You're exactly right. Like you, you're so, so right.
And we've spoken about this for ourselves.
(44:14):
We're speaking about this for our kids and in preparation of
kids who are a bit older than ours.
So in a different life stage, I want to hear from you guys like
you, you looking at like, you know, because again, this is
social media, right? Like I'll look at you guys.
I'm looking at you guys now. I'm looking at you guys.
I'm like, you guys look fine, right?
Like, because this is social media, right?
This is like, Oh, we're seeing something here.
(44:34):
And you guys will be like, you know, you know your circumstance
way more than we do. But from, from my perspective,
you guys sound great like this and that that doesn't sound
heated at all. So I wanted to ask a question
why? And I'm not trying to get you
guys. I'm not trying to give you get
you guys to give me an example of you guys hate it.
I want to know like why? Why would you come on to a
(44:56):
podcast and share about difficult circumstances while
you're in the difficult season? What would be the reason why?
What? Would be the reason to do that.
Why did you guys come on here and wanting to be that
vulnerable? I think that both of us have had
probably, probably Katie longer than me, a fairly relentless
(45:17):
pursuit of the deconstruction ofego in in our lives, right?
So I for a long time, it's just a small example with my rock
band, I don't really care what Iwear on stage.
I'm not really fussed, but I have to respect that other band
(45:37):
members really do. Yeah.
OK, So I, I, we don't wear latest fashion or anything like
that. We so in an instance like this,
we don't care. I mean, I, I appreciate it what
you've just said and how we are coming across right now.
We don't really care. And I don't really care how I am
(46:00):
perceived by others anymore. And that is a debilitating thing
that most people, well, most people, a lot of people don't
ever actually overcome in their lives a paralysing fear of what
other people will think of what they're doing.
I don't care and haven't for some time.
(46:22):
And Katie, probably longer, though that was maybe part a
bigger part of your story when you were younger perhaps.
Yeah, yeah. I guess for me, the whole bubble
burst when I was in my late teenage years and my parents
split up. And so I had to face at 17 that
whole Cinderella fairy tale backthen and go.
(46:44):
I just don't think that's what life is going to be.
And then also our professions don't lend themselves to be able
to keep up with the Kardashians,put it that way.
As therapists, we and, and also the line of work we've chosen,
we've been in and out of work over the our whole marriage.
(47:05):
And so we've never been able to,as I said, keep up.
And so we have had to shift our values in terms of sticking to
what's important to us as opposed to what our culture says
is important. That kind of, would you say in
some ways was forced upon us andcontinues to be forced upon us
through our work and through thevalue, the monetary value that
(47:30):
is placed upon our work. So that's definitely part of it.
I guess to give some context about to, to to help you
understand the a little bit of the background of this current
season that we're in and in and in brief.
And there's some things I can talk about and some things that
I can't. It it hasn't been some of your
(47:51):
listeners might be like, oh, this is the bit where he said I
had an affair and and this isn'twe.
We haven't got the energy for anaffair.
Half the time I feel like enoughof a disappointment to Katie to
take on another person to, to disappoint as well.
So about probably probably a couple of months ago now, my
(48:13):
boss called me and said we we need to have a, a chat and, and
I went OK and she visited my studio.
She came into this space and shesaid you are changing lives.
We are seeing amazing sort of feedback from these people.
Just just beautiful songs come out.
(48:35):
People just being so proud of their voice for the first time
in their life, you know, haven'tbeen told for years, you Can't
Sing, you're not musical, you'vegot no talent.
And I go, well, let's see about that.
And, and we, we write a song andto have clients, one of them I
is on video even saying you savemy life.
(48:56):
Each fortnight there's been changes in the NDIS which we
were made, made aware of which which meant that as of the start
of July this year, my wage was cut by 60%.
Oh. My gosh.
So that's, and if I had a qualification then I would have
(49:19):
been fine, but I don't. So I was put on a basically a
base support worker wage as an unskilled support worker.
And my, my education was quite traumatic from, from school.
I changed schools five times andthere was significant bullying
(49:40):
throughout that experience. In very brief, I rebuked a
teacher in class who was teaching some of the most
amazingly misogynistic teaching around sex education and men's
entitlement and that kind of thing.
And I stood up and walked to thefront of the class and said all
of this is wrong. He should he shouldn't be saying
(50:01):
this in I was in year 7. I rebuked a teacher in class in
year 7. I said all of this is wrong.
No human being should be treatedthat way.
You should never take advantage of another human being, right?
This was in an all boys school and I was bullied by a year
level and a half of year 7:00 and 8:00 and I eventually had to
(50:24):
change schools, but the damage had been done.
I was in fight or flight for therest of my education.
Who's going to beat me up after class?
Am I, am I going to smash my head into the locker when I go
to the locker? It's all that kind of stuff.
So I didn't once I got the option to not go to further
education, I went, I'm out. I can't, I don't know how other
(50:44):
people do this. It's so brutal.
Like, you know, my go to university for five years, I'm
like, that would be even more hard because the kids are big.
You know, I was like a, you know, a baby elephant, if it was
like there, there was a small nail put in the ground, but the
baby elephant couldn't pull away.
And the elephant got bigger, butdidn't realise that I could have
gone on with further education. But then there weren't bullies
(51:06):
at the university. And, you know, but I was like,
Nah, like I, I just, I just can't do that.
So for my entire life, you know,I, I, to some degree, I felt
like a bit of a dance, like an educational dance.
I haven't been able to commit to, you know, a university.
So to have to be doing a job where I felt like I was commit,
(51:27):
I was producing some pretty amazing results with with some
pretty broken people and people saying this is the only form of
therapy that it has ever worked for me for them to go, no,
you're an unskilled support worker.
Brought back a lot of well, I amactually the last 30 years of
writing songs, producing songs, touring the country, writing
(51:49):
songs with other people for other people, all of those good
things that that counts for nothing.
I'm an unskilled support worker and at this stage I do just want
to say that the company I work for, Sparrow Collective, did
everything they could to continue to value me.
And there certainly wasn't the message that I was getting from
(52:12):
them. It was just a guideline rule
change on the NDIS front, which meant that this had to this
change had to come about and it impacted on my capacity to
charge of my my clients in DIS players.
So Sparrow did everything they could.
I feel valued by Sparrow and their hands are tied.
(52:32):
So this isn't their doing, etcetera, etcetera.
It's just they were as much of the victim as as I was.
So yeah, so. And at the same time another
thing happened that I can't talkabout at this point in time.
A 25 year lifelong dream has come to an end.
So I and finding myself kind of going, I've just lost short term
(52:55):
hope, long term hope, the dignity of providing for my
family. And yet I'm, I'm tied to a job
where I'm preserving people's lives.
So I can't really walk away fromthat with clear conscience.
Yeah, that that's kind of been some of the major challenges for
me. And then that sort of sort of
coincided with with Katie needing to go to four days at
(53:18):
where she works, which put a little bit more pressure on me.
So that's kind of the season that we're in anyway.
But having said that, there's many things that I'm grateful
for. And so the question was, why
would you come on this podcast? Because for SO2 parts, the first
part where I talked about the relentless deconstruction of
ego, I don't care what any of your listeners think of me or
(53:40):
us, but if there's something that they can learn or glean
from what we have to say, then that's awesome.
Yeah. And two, I would like to think,
I don't know, maybe in six months time we could come on the
show again and we can talk aboutthe processing that has happened
through this time and how much better we are as people because
(54:01):
of this experience that we're currently in.
Yeah. And and that there are seasons
and some seasons start and they're awful, but they come to
an end and there's great riches and rewards on the other side.
And that's, that can be, you know, a picture for for having a
partner as well, I guess. But when you think that it's the
darkest of dark winter, it's notalways going to be that that
(54:24):
way, Yeah. A nice nature metaphor there,
but we were reflecting on that last night.
Just that's probably the the biggest thing that we would want
to encourage people who are in new relationships is to see out
those hard seasons. Because when you get to the
other side and you don't think you ever will.
(54:44):
But that truly is what has made our relationship richer and
stronger because we have got through it together.
And in the midst of it, we haven't thought that.
But once you're through it and you look back, you go, that was
an awful season. But we did it, you know, side by
(55:06):
side, arm in arm, whatever you like to, however you like to
think of it. So, and I think unfortunately a
lot of relationships don't get to that point anymore.
I think a lot of relationships go, this is too hard.
It's I don't know if it's a choice or what it is, but I
think a lot of relationships aremissing out on that opportunity
to look back and go, yes, OK, wedid, we got through that one.
(55:29):
So when, when the next season, because there will be another
difficult season when the next difficult season comes up.
We've done it before. We know we can do it again.
And probably that, that idea of life just getting better and
better and better. I think we've we've had to
accept that that's not always the case, you know, doesn't get
better and better from season toseason.
(55:50):
It ebbs and flows. It goes around in circles.
And yeah, that that's kind of life.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
And it's life, regardless of if you have a partner or not.
And I think some people or if you're with that partner or not,
we have those things as individuals.
I think some people's approach to relationship can be we're in
a bad time right now. It must be this, this
(56:11):
relationship. So if we this isn't, this isn't
working, we can't see through it.
So we're going to, we're going to say, I think it's broken.
I don't think it's working. I don't think it's right.
And then finish it. And then I think what happens is
we have these things anyways, these ebbs and flows and waves
that people experience. You have them.
That's what life is. But when you can have that
(56:32):
beauty of growing together and all of the, the little journeys
that you guys have mentioned today, working through those
things and, and the kind of puzzle pieces of learning
yourself and your partner and your marriage together.
You. Get stronger in those waves and
those those waves. It's more of a team related
thing. And I think there's such a
(56:53):
beauty and just putting that work in and putting those that
intentional effort into understanding what's happening
with both of you. It's it's you guys have touched
on multiple things that actuallymake this really clear.
It's not an equation because nothing is an equation in a
relationship. But this like you, you talked
about how, you know, we discussed, we discovered that
(57:13):
talking late at night about important things just doesn't
work. And This is why it doesn't work.
And I think a lot of people think, oh, he's not hearing me,
she's not hearing me, They're not hearing me that I'm trying
to have this conversation. It's not working.
And there's not much intentionaltime on spent on why might they
not be hearing me? And then even the active
listening that you've spoken about to like so many
miscommunications happen in relationships, so many
(57:35):
miscommunications, regardless ofthe relationship, we miss
miscommunicate. We misunderstand all the time.
And so that active listening andintentionality helps to weave
through some of that doesn't mean it always happens, but it's
a, it's an intentional habit to build.
And that helps you then facing these waves, it helps you
understand each other more. It's like that intentional
(57:56):
exploring. And I, we love that.
That's something that we love doing together.
Sometimes easier said than done,but learning more about how we
work always easier said than done.
Learning more about how we work as individuals has always helped
us to face the difficult times together, which is invaluable.
I think as your kids get older, you in some sense, you know, our
(58:21):
marriage is number one, kids are#2 but you include them in that
process of communicating and learning about communicating.
And you become this larger team in a sense.
Like how can we as a family negotiate this and, and, and
communicate better? And so you kind of bring them
into those learnings and understandings and sitting on
(58:43):
the couch and chewing the fat and all that sort of stuff.
I think that's a really lovely part of kids getting older as
well. Wow.
Well, there's so many things that I would want to talk to you
guys. About, you know, I've got like a
number of questions. I'm like, oh, just.
Keep going and keep going, but we need to wrap it up
unfortunately, but hopefully we can touch base again in the near
future and and chat with you guys a bit more.
(59:03):
But thank you so much for takingthe time to be vulnerable and
honest and share from your hearts.
We really appreciate it. And we, I believe that this is
going to be really impactful forthe people listening as well.
Thanks so much, guys. Thanks.
Guys, lovely to hold space with you guys and keep doing what
you're doing because you're creating a platform for people
to reflect and to ask questions and to feel normal about what
(59:25):
they're going through. And I think, yeah, not feeling
alone is just such a powerful thing.
It's very powerful. Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. Awesome.
Awesome. Thanks guys.
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.