ADAPT| Embracing Change: How it Fuels Progress with Dr. Oluwole Babatunde MD

Episode Transcript
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Sanika (00:51):
welcome to this episode of How Do You Divine, where we
explore the words that drive ourlives and how it compliments our
conflict with our spirituality.
Today I have the honor ofspeaking with Dr.
Wa.
Baba

Wole (Oluwole) Babatunde (01:07):
Psyche

Sanika (01:08):
psychiatric physician, public health expert, and
researcher whose career embodieswhat it means to adapt

Wole (Oluwole) Babatund (01:16):
Perfect

Sanika (01:17):
with purpose in medicine, leadership, and in
life.

much, Ika, for having me today.
I'm excited to be here today andthanks for the warm
introduction.

Sanika (01:28):
Absolutely.

so much.

Sanika (01:30):
Thank you so much for being here.
I feel like you have adapted inlife in various seasons, right
from your migration story tobecoming a physician and also
overcoming

drama and

Sanika (01:45):
and.

grief

Sanika (01:46):
Grief and heartbreak in various aspects of your life.

before

Sanika (01:51):
before we get

all

Sanika (01:52):
into all your research and your expertise, can you
please give the audience alittle bit about Wale,

from.

Sanika (01:58):
where you from

we

Sanika (01:59):
and where we find you today?

Thank you so much.
That's a good way to start.
I'm grateful that I'm where I amtoday.
My name is Wally, born inNigeria.
some thousands of masks away, Ibelieve from the us.
grew up from humble beginnings.
Had some very traumaticchildhood experiences, which

(02:23):
we're going to talk more aboutlater.
The loss of my mom when I wasseven.
The loss of my dad when I was13, after that happened in
Nigeria.
It was a big struggle completehigh school to college, but
somehow with, a lot of grace toadapt and to advance, I was able
to get through medical school inNigeria.

(02:44):
Walked a little bit in Nigeria.
Then I saw the need totransition to the United States
in 2014, to learn more.
I love to learn to read.
And I came in for my PhD inEpidemiology, university of
South Carolina in Columbia,South Carolina, completed that.
Two big goals I had while comingto the US was to finish my PhD

(03:06):
for help me with research.
And then secondly is to do myresidency in psychiatry, born
out of Brazil for the thingsthat I have experienced with my
life growing up.
And I just felt I wanted to dopsychiatry in the US where I
will have the opportunity, totouch people uniquely.

(03:29):
And compassion because of, I'vebeen through with my life, so to
do residency, four years,completed June this year.
And I'm happy to say that I'm apsychiatrist in the US today and
I see patients regularly and I'mable to help as much as I, have
the grace to be able to helpthem.

Sanika (03:50):
Nice.
And just your ability to adaptin these various environments,
right?
Different countries, differentlevels of education and
challenges to become, aphysician today.

I'm gonna ask you

Sanika (04:05):
I'm gonna ask, the first question is why,

why?

Sanika (04:09):
why psychiatric, versus other disciplines in medicine?
Why did you, is it your traumathat drew you to psychiatric,
medicine?
Why, why that, that line?

a wonderful question I've had
people ask me this questionmultiple times, and I remember
when I interviewed for residentsin psychiatry.
It's one of the main questionsin all of the interviews I had.
It's one of the questions, thateverywhere I interviewed the can
white psychiatry, we see yourbackground from Nigeria, your
physician, you did communitymedicine in Nigeria, and why
psychiatry at this point?

(04:43):
So it's a question I've had toanswer many times.
My main motivation forpsychiatry is, I tell people,
psychiatry of all the divisionsof medicine or the various,
kinds of medicine peoplepractice, I strongly believe
psychiatry is the one where youget to hear people's problems
the most, and where you could beable to provide.

(05:05):
A lot of compassion to themempathy.
Not that you can't, of courseevery other aspect of medicine
can

Sanika (05:13):
Yeah.

that, but psychiatry is unique because
most of our disorders arereally, are typically, there's
always one big stressor thatusually pushes it.
At times we have patients goingthrough divorce and you know,
that just shatters their world.
And you know, the times webecome depressed at times, we
have patients going through verytough financial situations and

(05:35):
difficulties, and I push them todrugs and the drugs push them to
other things.
So those are the kind of thingsthat, I.
Since part of my background inmedicine, my, the trauma I
experienced as a child, I feltit's a, it's a great thing for
me to be able to and hear aboutthe trauma we go through and I

(05:57):
can empathically, understand andbe able to provide compassionate
care there.

Sanika (06:03):
What do you think is one of the misconceptions about
psychiatric physicians versustherapists?

Wole (Oluwole) Babat (06:13):
Generally, there's a lot of stigma
surrounding psychiatric careeven both for patients and for
we that care for them.
the reason being, you know,people feel, you know, because
it has to do with people's mind.
And you know, at times we dealwith very serious mental
illnesses.
Although I tell people like.

(06:35):
Maybe half of our patients, oreven more than that, don't have
very serious mental illness,like schizophrenia or somebody
like, so people easily attributestigma.
To heat,

Sanika (06:46):
Hmm.

and the same way it is has been
stigmatized in the generalpopulation for people with
doctors.
Also experience the stigma too.
You know, they feel we are a bitweird and because we are dealing
with people that are strugglingor maybe, you know, with mental
health illnesses, but that's notthe case.
Most of the people that we treatin psychiatry are, you know.

(07:11):
Normal human beings that go tonormal job, live normal life.
So it's not like, of course wehave those very sick people that
might, that might fit thatcategory of like

Sanika (07:22):
Yeah.

very sick and, you know, uh, but like
every specialty.
I honestly, I would think justpicking up a number, maybe up to
90% are, you know, they're justpeople like you and I like,
yeah, they, they're just

Sanika (07:36):
Yeah.

Wole (Oluwole) Babat (07:36):
stressors.
Maybe they're just depressed.
They have some anxiety.
They have some P ts D in theirlives.
You know, it's making itdifficult for them to function
at the best that they can.
So I think that's the mainreason why there's a lot of
stigma.
People feel that psychiatry is aworst but it is not, you know,
and we try to normalize and letpeople know it's okay not to be

(07:57):
okay.
All you need to do is seek helpin the right place.
you know, we are hearing voices,for example, that are not there,
or seeing things that are notthere.
Whatever I teach that people areexperiencing, we want them, or
maybe we are feeling suicidal.
You know, at times people feellike killing themselves.
You know, those are things wedeal with all the time.
You know, we tell people to seekhelp.

(08:19):
Pick up your phone and call.
You know, we have the hotlinenumbers.
Or worst case, you call 9 1 1.
They will direct you to theright place on 9 8, 8, the
suicide outline numbers.
Call a friend, tell familymembers so that you know you can
get the help you need.
Don't bottle it off.
So it's every time I have the

Sanika (08:35):
Oh,

I want to educate people.
Like when you have those weirdthoughts, don't think that you
are just weird.
You can call for help and maybeone of us will be available to
help

Sanika (08:45):
can help you.
Yes.

I think

Sanika (08:48):
I think many people try to adapt to that sense of
normalcy that you talked about,right?
Where they're normal people likeyou and I, but some of those
challenges aren't, you know,they don't wear them, right?
They're not forthcoming.
They're kind of hiding them andpushing them down.
How have you adapted from tryingto.

(09:12):
Have people be more open to theconcept of seeking psychiatric
help versus therapy?
Or do you get referrals fromtherapy?
How do you adapt to thatchanging landscape?
Because like you said before, asa society, we're becoming more
and more acceptable to therapybeing a normal thing to do.

(09:32):
Just like you go and, get yourteeth cleaned every six months,
every four months.

have,

Sanika (09:37):
should probably check in with the therapist just to make
sure you're well, just like wewould if, you know, we broke our
arm, we would go to the doctor.
Do you see, a change in thelandscape where people are
adapting more to, let's justsay, leaning into therapy and
you are referred from there orleaning right into psychiatric
assistant?

Wole (Oluwole) Babatun (09:56):
Actually therapy works hand in hand with,
psychiatric psychiatristbecause, primarily a
psychiatrist.
Is trained to help you byproviding medications that can
help either with depression,anxieties, schizophrenia,
bipolar, PTSD and all of that.
So we are trained to help you byproviding medication.

(10:18):
A therapist is trained to talkthrough and give you coping
skills.
Both of them are equallyimportant, especially for
example, in the landscape ofdepression.
There's a lot of evidence thatwhen patients.
both.
Uh, taking of medications, let'ssay on the left hand and on the
right hand, seeing a therapist.

(10:39):
When a patient combines bothspecifically for depression,
there's a lot of science thattells us that they do better
than only medication or onlytherapy.
So eventually a therapist and apsychiatrist work hand in hand.
And where I work, for example,you know, see the patients every
day.
Therapist also see them everyday.

(11:00):
So because of inpatient.
So it's important to have bothof that.
And we tell patients, in fact,we are also trained, in some
therapeutic skills so thatbecause somebody tells you they
have a lot of trauma, you justtell them, take this pill.
You must also be able to usesome of your therapeutic skills,
which is the non-medical aspect.

(11:22):
To empathize with them and to doa little bit.
We trained in a little bit ofCBT cognitive behavioral therapy
or maybe acceptance andcommitment therapy, or even just
supportive, just supporting themand telling them it's going to
be okay.
And you've been through somethings in the past and reaching
forth back to them, you can alsoget through this one.
So we are also trained intherapy to be able to use a

(11:44):
little bit of it.
So if we have 30 minutesencounter with a patient.
could just do therapy in two orthree or five minutes, just a
little bit, to make the patientfeel hard and to also empower
them with coping skills that isdifferent from medications.
So ideally, therapy andpsychiatrist work hand in hand
to give a patient the best, andthat what I have, and I'm thanks

(12:08):
to everybody listening here,that.
If you really need help, you canstart with therapy alone.
At times.
Therapy alone might just be okaydepending on the level of what
you are dealing with.
But if you need medication help,is no harm in seeking both
therapy and also seeking apsychiatric care.
But some of the stressor we

Sanika (12:27):
I love.

deal with, therapy is just fine.
We all need a little bit of it.

Sanika (12:32):
Yes.
No, I love the way you outlinethat, because it speaks to that
fair aspect.

how

Sanika (12:39):
How do you adapt to someone's fear of being
medicated?

The biggest thing for us that we do
every single day is at everytime we educate people, like I
said, there's a lot ofmisconception, there's a lot of
stigma and people come into youwith all of those thoughts.
There's some misconception aboutthat specific diagnosis and some
of our disorders are looselyused in society to mean

(13:04):
different things, you know, sopeople come with all of this
misconception one thing we cando to adapt to them is to give
some level of education and tellthem, this is what we think we
are going through and this iswhy we are thinking, we are
going through this.
We also, one thing we always doin adapting to their situation

(13:25):
is let them know they are uniquesituation.
And let them know the role thatmedications can play.
also know the role that therapyalso, can play.
So they all play separate roles.
And so educating patients andeven letting them know, I used
calling it a three-legged too.
So we have medication, we havetherapy, we also have lifestyle.
There are some things thepatients who can do that is

(13:47):
lifestyle that impacts mentalhealth a lot.
for example, you know.
Cool analogy.
Come on.

Sanika (13:53):
Come on.

you know, that's what I tell, and I
always tell patient we have todo the three medication, therapy
and lifestyle.
Lifestyle comes talking aboutmed.
Exercise for example, is onelifestyle thing that you can do.
a lot of science that ifpersonally experiencing
depression, even just getting upand moving, 30 minutes every day
or jogging or whatever you areable to do, just keeping it

(14:16):
moving could go a long way toeven get you out of the
depression.
For example, in the inpatientwhere I work, I tell patients,
if you are here and the old dayyou are lying down in bed, how
do you want to get better?
with the medication and withtherapy, you know, you've got to
get up, go to group sessions, goto other places, you know, move

(14:36):
around, you know, get puzzles,get books and read and you know,
there are just so many things wecan do, There are some people
that are so sick.
They just can't even get up

Sanika (14:48):
Hmm.

It's possible, you know,

Sanika (14:50):
Yeah.

the mental disorder could make it so
crippling and so hard, or evenimpossible in some cases.
Like some people, we havecatatonia where even they might
not even move.
They might not even eat fordays.
That's different.
There are ways to manage thatone, but 90% of the time people

(15:57):
are not that sick.
So we tell them, get up.
you can still get up on yourown.
You can still move around, youcan still go to group sessions,
you can talk to people, stufflike that.
So all of that is part of theadapting process that all of us
have to keep, you know, doing toadapt to the situations that we
have at times.
People just don't know that someof these little things to

(16:19):
matter.
To help them get over whatevermental health disorders they
might have.
I'm not saying that's the onlything that works, but definitely
it's one of the three key thingsthat I would always recommend
every single patient, exercise,diet, you know, taking good
decisions for yourself.

Sanika (16:37):
Yeah.

Using substances could cause a lot of
problem for some people, beforeyou get to a point where
impossible for you to controlit.
At times, just taking a gooddecision could be helpful.

Sanika (16:49):
Oh, I love that.
And one of the key things thatwe talked about was this concept
that people have that you mustaccept before you can adapt.

and that's

Sanika (16:59):
Right, and that's why I wanted us to explore the
importance of adapting.
We're slow to adapt because wefeel there's a requirement of us
accepting our situation first.

and

Sanika (17:11):
Right, and what I've come to learn is that acceptance
is not necessarily arequirement.
It is what it is.

Be nice.

Sanika (17:17):
it would be nice if it's on the train,

Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.

Sanika (17:21):
know, it would be nice.

I do

Sanika (17:23):
But I do feel the importance

for

Sanika (17:26):
for individuals to adapt to their current season of life
in order to.
Elevate or even progress, right?
Sometimes the goal is to justput one foot in front of the
other.
The goal is just to make it tothrough the month or even
through the day.
So talk to me about how you cameto write the book and do your

(17:49):
research around the importanceto adapt to advance.

Yeah.
So adapting the way I look atit, I talk about a lot in my
book, adapt in Advance.
I see it as a way and likeknowing that if there's a
difficult situation, understandthat this is difficult.
Situation we all go throughtough seasons.
At one phase or the other of ourlives, and honestly, maybe

(18:15):
multiple times in our lifetime,if you live long enough, you
will experience things that youreally don't like they will
always come.
So when we experience thosethings, we need to understand
that the reality of it, this isa difficult situation, is not
what I expect, you know?
Nobody, for example, to believethat generally no.

(18:40):
Well-meaning person goes into amarriage because they want to
divorce very soon, or no?
Well-meaning person goes to a

Sanika (18:46):
Talk about it.

they want to go and fail exams, you
know?
Well-meaning person wants tohave money so that they can lose
it.
For the most part, for most ofus.
So, but when some of thesethings happen, whether it's a
divorce is failing an exam orgoing through very difficult,
challenging bit.
That when go way with the other,it's unique for everybody.

(19:07):
Adapting means you understandthat this is a difficult
situation, but I will not letthis situation define me in a
negative way.
Advancing is moving forwarddespite those difficult
situation.
So in the book, I talked aboutmy own personal life.
Since I've been a child, I'vealways adapted and advanced and

(19:28):
make progress.
The whole idea is, you know,when I lost my mother, when I
was seven years old, lost myfather when I was, 13 years old.
I, I have to take a decision atthat point that I would not let
these negative things my future.
I will not let.
I don't want to get to the endof my life when, whenever that

(19:50):
is and look back.
And all that I could say isbecause his mother died at seven
and his father died at 13.
Unfortunately, his life wasgrounded to a stop and he could
not make progress.
So I have to tell myself, I'vegot to figure out a way to adapt
to this situation, and I've gotto figure out a way.

(20:12):
Although I never really solvedthe problem at any time, so you
can't solve, you can't bring adead person back.
I never got to really solve theproblem, like the way I would've
preferred it to be solved.
And of course there were manydays I cried.
I wish they could come backenough.
Every time I did, they were tocome back.
So I had to find a way to like,okay, they're not back.

(20:32):
And I'm, I have to deal with thefinancial fallout, for example.
I always tell people wherepeople lost.
When there are losses of familymembers, maybe people lose their
prayer.
I always tell them the biggerloss is even not the bigger
pain.
The pain you feel when they toldyou or when it happened.
The bigger pain is your everydaylife where the road those people

(20:56):
played, it becomes like avacuum.
you wake up, you need to payschool fees.
And you realize, who do I go totalk to now about this?
They provide you food, theyprovide you protection, they
provide you shelter.
When you wake up many days andyou realize, wow, you know, it's
not like it used to be when Ihad this person.

(21:17):
So it it, I always tell them,the real pain is coming, don't
waste all your emotional energy.

Sanika (21:24):
don't crash out as they say,

yes.
It's like B buckle buckle up forthe difficult days I had, which
will be a fallout of the sameway with every other things that
we experience.
You know, there are consequencesto things that happened to us,
so some consequences you woulddeal with it day, you know, but

(21:46):
you have to not make a decision.
Do I want this to stop me frommaking progress in every other
area of my life?
Or do I want to make sure thatwith this pain in my life keeps
coming every single day, Iremember my parents every single
day.
I remember the financialdifficulty.

(22:08):
I'm going through all theunemployment.
Will I allow that to be thedefining thing in my life or.
Do I want to rewrite my storylike one of the things I wrote
in my book is, story is beingrewritten every day and you owe
the pain.
Your story is being rewrittenevery day and the pain is in

(22:31):
your hand.
So you've got to tell yourself,

Sanika (22:34):
Yeah.

the pain in my hand, some things
have happened, which maybe Ididn't have a choice.
They happen you know, there'slittle I can do about it.
But this pain in my

Sanika (22:44):
Yeah.

and I will rewrite it to fit what I
really believe is my purpose inlife.
So if you understand that youalso owe the pain, you realize
that the pain and the problem,cannot stop you from adapting
and advancing and makingprogress.
That does not mean the pain hasgone away on represent.
In fact, there will be newerones, so as we continue,

Sanika (23:10):
Your old problem will evolve to a new problem.

The more you solve a problem, newer
ones will come up.
You know, that's our life if wetend to really look carefully.
Not being pessimistic.
I'm a very optimistic person,but I also know

Sanika (23:23):
I like how you're saying it in terms of like the ability
to adapt to the scenario as itsits.
Right.
And just also being ready.
For problems to expand as wellas them diminishing.
I like the way that you saythat, that it is always being
rewritten and tomorrow could bea great day and the day after

(23:43):
that could be a worst day.
But I like this.
I like the way you're framing ittoday's pain is bad.
Right.
Today's pain is hard.
That's not what you're saying,that it's, you're not saying
it's not hard.
But what you're saying is thatyou have the ability to,

rewrite

Sanika (23:59):
diminish

mmwr.

Sanika (24:00):
and rewrite it as things move forward.
How did you get to a scenariowhere you're saying don't worry
about accepting, adapt to whereyou are right now.
And as someone who loves adeadline, I'm deadline oriented.
I like things to flow and have asystem.
Do you think it is healthy?

(24:21):
Look at me trying to get alittle side, side work on side.

do you

Sanika (24:24):
but do you think it's healthy for people to put
timelines to what it means toadapt?
Opening up this conversation, Iwanted our audience to be aware
of what it means to adaptmentally and emotionally, but
also what are the tools.

can use,

Sanika (24:40):
That they can give themselves.
I love the three legged stoolthat we talked about already,
but Have people that overthinkand that get paralyzed with
procrastination.

yeah.

Sanika (24:50):
So tell me when you are, saying as an expert and a
physician

it

Sanika (24:55):
should it be time oriented?
Should it be situation,specific?
Is there any generalrecommendations you can make?

yeah.
So in terms of timeline, I wouldsay, to some extent it's good,
but also some extent can bedamaging.
we need to find the rightbalance, for timeline.
And, but I would say the wordbalance is very, very important.

(25:25):
We need to find in everythingthat we do.
Balance in terms of beingflexible too.
You can have.
A timeline.
For example, I want to be adoctor at of time.
You know, I want to pass thisexam.
Like when I came to the US I hadeverything outlined.

(25:45):
You know, like, I'm going to doPhD, five years, going to do
residency, so, so forth.
I didn't it exactly accordingto,

Sanika (25:54):
Nigerian, you just, you gotta own your culture.
It is very Nigerian view.

well, I didn't achieve it exactly.
For example, I think I wrote myPhD was going to be done in
three years.
Eventually I did five years, butof course.
knew why I did five years andthis was for a good reason.

Sanika (26:11):
Yeah.

was going to do residency after
that, but there was a two yearspostdoc, which I don't think I
really planned for, which I didin between then.
So I was still flexible enoughto know that, although I
couldn't meet it exactly asplanned, I still met it maybe
three or four years later, andI'm okay with that.
The same way.

(26:31):
For

Sanika (26:31):
Yeah.

my book.
It's always been a dream in myheart.
I didn't even know at the point,I didn't even know where to put
it into my life.
It was just not possible.
But when the time came like aspark, I knew this was the time
to do it last year, and I wasable to commit the last seven,
eight months of my residency.
I could add it on to the otherthings I was doing without one

(26:55):
affecting the other negatively.
So is something I would say isvery important.
And even in psychotherapy, inpsychiatry, some of the reasons
some people end up withpsychiatry disorders is because
of their inability to beflexible.
So people are

Sanika (27:14):
Ooh,

and, you know, there are,

Sanika (27:18):
rigid.

there are some personality disorders
that are, that fit more intothat box.
They just have to do thingscertain ways.
If you don't do it certain ways,it's going to create
interpersonal problems for them.
They're going to fight theirspouses, fight their children,
and everybody, because the househas to just be clean this way.
This has to be done this timeand all of that, but it's okay.

(27:40):
You know, we are different.
for such people, they need tounderstand that they need to
work on.
into their life so that theydon't like frustrate everybody
around them and also frustratethemselves

Sanika (27:54):
Yeah.

but of course we need some of it too.
It's not like to say everybodyshould just leave their life
anyhow without any timeline andanything, otherwise nothing will
be done.
So, but we need to find thattreat fault of balance.
Where we are able to set goals,but at the same time know when
some goals are never going to beachieved.
There are some goals you mighthave that might just not be in

(28:18):
us to achieve.
Might be your children that willachieve it and might be nobody
will ever achieve it.

Sanika (28:23):
Yeah.

enough to be able to take a U-turn if
we have to, or move to the righta little bit if we have to, or
move to the left a little bit ifwe have to.
All of that's important to agood and a balance, that would
be the word for that.
And I would say flexibility.
Very, very important.

(28:44):
I set goals every week, everymonth, every year.
But of course I change them asevents unfold, so

Sanika (28:51):
Be okay with moving the goalposts essentially.
Yes.

yes.

Sanika (28:54):
That's good.
So given your background inmedicine, public health and
research, have you had to adaptyour approach when addressing
global health disparities versuslocal community level health
needs?
Have you had to adapt?

Wole (Oluwole) Baba (29:11):
definitely, uh, I would say.
is just compulsory.
Just compulsory and, you know,making progress in everything,
that we do.
For example, one example thatcomes to my mind, very readily,
like I just told you forexample, my PhD was I was
desiring to make it three years.
but I also wanted to get an NIHgrant.

(29:33):
It's an experience I dreamt ofbefore coming to the us.
So it's one of the things Iwanted to experience during my
PhD, and there was this grantcalled, F 99 slash K zero zero,
which was the transition grantfrom PhD to postdoc.
and you can only submitted inyour third year, and then if
it's funded, you can experienceit in your 40 year and 50 year.

(29:56):
So that makes the four and yearfive compulsory.
if I had not gotten it, maybe Iwould have graduated earlier,
but I applied, I was successful.
It was funded, so that made yearfour and year five necessary.
So that an example of adaptingto a situation.
so I had to create time to dothe work, and they also create

(30:18):
time to finish the PhD aspectand also create time to finish
the postdoc aspect.
also gave me the opportunity toslow down, take a step back, and
to do my board exams that Ineeded to get him to residency
in psychiatry later.
eventually, everything workedout for good.
And I was able to get a grant,finish the two years PhD, two

(30:38):
years postdoc, and then fouryears residency.
eventually things tied up andthings made things.
So that's one big example of meadapting to a situation,
something I wanted but wasn'tgoing to happen the way I
originally wanted.
research is something you haveto keep adapting all the time.
publishing your papers can be sotough.

(30:58):
I remember the very first paperI worked on in the US for my
PhD.
I submitted it like five or sixtime before, eventually journals
before it got published.
So if you are not adapting orthey give you recommendations,
they tell you you can do thisway, this is the better way to
improve it.
You've got to sit down again,work on it, adapt it, move it to
the next journal again, and allof you have to keep doing that.

(31:20):
there are some, you get lucky,you submit once and you get
published within a short time.
There are some you have to keepworking on and keep working on,
but you know what they aretrying to do is help you improve
it, help you improve thescience.
And help you to come out withwhatever is best, for you and
your findings.
so at the end of the day, it allworks well, but it's not easy
It's not easy going throughthose situations and going

(31:43):
through those circumstances, butif you take a step back and
you're like, what can I dodifferently to adapt?
to advance in this situationwhere I found myself.
Then there will always be ideasof what you can do to things
moving forward.

Sanika (32:00):
Yeah,

Yeah.

Sanika (32:01):
We've known how you adapt to complete your.
PhD but how do you have to adaptto patients from africa to
America?
Right.
You're in the south, Was thattransition, from vocabulary to
approach to practice, was thatdifficult to adapt to?

Not completely, but of course there
were a few challenges on the wayas usual.
like I always tell people, youknow, coming to the us in
Nigeria, we went to school inEnglish.
So English wasn't a problem forme at all.
You know, elementary, middle,high school, college, everything
in Nigeria was in English.
We still had our languages, likemy, I'm Yoruba, we had our

(32:43):
languages, but at the same time,all of everything we.
Went to school and was English.
So it was easy.
So I thought the English Iunderstood would make things
very communication wise, easy.
But I realized in the US it'snot just speaking English, but
you know, you might be speakingEnglish and they will know what
you're saying because of theaccent and the differences in

(33:04):
that.
So that was something I had toquickly, had to get used to
dealing with.
And so I had to look forcreative ways.
if you notice when I talk, I tryto escalate a lot, you know, so
that people can pick.
Use both my body language andalso what I say, to pick.
So I think I did more of that.
Another way I think I alsoadapted well was.

(33:25):
use words that are easy to pickand will not be misunderstood.
for example, I want to

Sanika (33:31):
Hmm.

about what you do as your job, I would
say, what job do you do?
I wouldn't say, what work do youdo?

Sanika (33:37):
Yes,

Work could mean many things, so I
quickly had to figure out the Iwill speak that people can
easily know what I'm saying.

Sanika (33:45):
yes.

be figured out.
Those are things which in maybean America might not worry
about, but for,

Sanika (33:50):
No, but I love, I love that you're open to that, that
journey of adapting for yourpatients, right?
I think sometimes when we comeinto different situations, like
even this conversation or anyconversation with a stranger on
the street, we have this.
Subconscious sense of

I am.

Sanika (34:08):
is who I am.
This is who I am.
You get what you get.
and I love that in thisconversation, we're just
amplifying, highlighting theimportance of your ability to
adapt to your environment.
Right?
It's so important becausesometimes the things that we're
going through both mentally andemotionally is because we won't
adapt.

Agreed.

Sanika (34:29):
Is because we are

I,

Sanika (34:31):
As people, we often get stuck in certain seasons of our
lives, and while time hasprogressed and people around us
has progressed and kind of moveforward, we're still stuck in
this situation and not adaptingto where we are in that season
of our life, both from anenvironmental standpoint, I have
an accent and I'm accustomed totransitioning because I occupy

(34:53):
various spaces.
I would think that the way I'mspeaking now is an accent,
right?
It's a lot clearer.
It's a lot slower.
It's, and then when I'm inAtlanta, they're like, oh, you
talk like you from up north.
Like, you know, everyone has anaccent to a certain extent, but
I want us to be clear that it'snot just about vocabulary and
communication, it's aboutadapting to your environment,

(35:16):
the way in which you progress.
Like you said earlier around.
Being mentally and open toflexibility

That's a word.

Sanika (35:27):
Adapting to your sit situation.
That could be in yourprofessional life, in your
personal life, on any goal andjourney.
And then I love that we'retalking about this because as we
adapt to, you know, we live inunprecedented times for many
different reasons as well as.
Coming from more unprecedentedtimes with the pandemic, like

(35:48):
everything about this is notnormal.
And I think we chase this senseof normalcy because familiarity
comforts us.
Let's be for real, right?
This is what's gonna happen whenI go here, it's comforting,
right?

Wole (Oluwole) Ba (36:02):
unfortunately it

Sanika (36:04):
we can get stuck

we're,

Sanika (36:06):
because we are searching for what is familiar and not
necessarily take into accountwhat we're losing for
familiarity.
How do you address that in yourpractice?
Do you see people regressingbecause they're searching for
what is more familiar versuswhat is best for them?

I think that's nature.
You just describe what Imannature is for that generally,
except you do somethingspecifically.
the natural tendency of all ofus is to.
with what is familiar, and thatcould be crippling and could

(36:45):
make it really difficult for usto adapt and advance in life.
For example, when I was livingNigeria, one of the things some
of my, senior colleagues me waslike, you know, I'm going to an
unfamiliar terrain, you know,and some of them try to
discourage me, which is okay, Iunderstand where they're coming
from and I understand the meanwell.
But at the same time, I alsounderstand that there are some

(37:07):
things in me, which.
I need to be in this environmentto be able to pull out and to be
able to do the best way I wouldreally want it done.
for my PhD, things I needed tolearn, which I may not easily
find around locally, back home.
so I think it's just normal.
People tend to, we all want tostay in our comfort zones, you

(37:29):
know, if I can use that word.
And nobody really

Sanika (37:32):
Yeah.

out into the unknown.
It is scary.
To go into your unknown attimes.
But if we are going to reallyadapt and advance, we must be
willing at times, you know, totest the waters and, you know,

Sanika (37:46):
Yep.

out of our comfort zones, And that's
where I talk about learning too.
I read books, one book everyweek.
Learn new things.
Step into new things and fromthe things you are learning,
take new steps.
of course be well informed, notjust take new steps blindly.
when I was coming to the US Imade calls regularly to people I
know, people I don't know,asking questions, and I was

(38:08):
taking notes.
I still have the notebook withme, now.
So I came prepared and Iunderstood what I was walking
into.
I knew, I would say 80% to 90%of questions answered on how
things can go.
if I meet this challenge, whatdo I do?
What's the next step?
Fine.
I didn't get all questionsanswered, but I got enough

(38:29):
answered to help me take thatleap of faith.
to move knowing that things willbe okay, things will be all
right.
But of course, was it all easy?
No.
there were a lot of challenges,but if I stayed back in Nigeria
too, there will have been adifferent kind of challenge, I'm
sure.

Sanika (38:46):
Yes.
So that, that's what I'm saying.
I feel like comfort can bereassuring, but it can also be a
prison.
And I wanted us to explore theconcept of adapting,

Not just on

Sanika (39:06):
not just in your professional life, but your
personal life.

That

Sanika (39:09):
That the ability and the desire to adapt will help you
progress.
And progression doesn'tnecessarily have to be upward,
right?
It can just be linear, but Ifeel like people, we cannot
identify what makes us happy inthis season or makes us feel
whole and makes us feel well.

if

Sanika (39:31):
If we are unwilling to adapt, forget, accept, forget
what that is.
Right?
Because it's like you said,you've had such a long,
traumatic journey that has putyou in such a great place where
you are now serving other peopleand helping them through their
traumatic experiences.
But one of the key aspects ofhow you've done that is by

(39:54):
adapting to every season of yourlife.

Not letting

Sanika (39:58):
Not letting go of what happened, not actually accepting
it.
Right?
Grief is hard, but the abilityto adapt.
So give me some tools that youthink, could help our audience
adapt to this season in theirlife.

So I would now summarize, the seven
big tools I have in my book.
number one is meaning making.
so when we go through traumaticsituations or have challenging
times, we should be able to makemeaning.
and I use Viktor Frankl's bookon mans search for meaning to
come up with three main ways tomake meaning.
One is by serving other people.

(40:34):
No matter what you're goingthrough, we have the mind to
serve others.
You realize that by helpingothers, you're helping yourself.
The second one is experiencingsomething or someone, it could
be experiencing music, it couldbe experiencing somebody you
love, whatever it is that you,that experience helps you to
make meaning of the things thatyou are going through.

(40:54):
And the third way, according toViktor Frankl is our attitude
towards the problem.

Sanika (41:00):
Hmm.

of those that was in the
concentration campaign.
One of the things he said was.
Even right in there with all thepain and suffering, you know, we
still made time to enjoy themoon.
You know, everybody still seesthe moan in the sky at the
night.
It is not so, it is, it, it's,it's an attitude towards the
problem.
Very important and that is verykey.

(41:20):
No matter what we are goingthrough.
Understand that this pain hasnot come to stop you.
This campaign, you interpret.
pain as preparation, notpunishment.
That's the way I look at it.
Whatever circumstance that youhave in your life that is
traumatic and painful ispreparing you for something
bigger that is the best attitudeto have, you know, towards it.

(41:44):
And the big that you will knowthat there's another season
after this one that is comingthat is gonna be better and that
this will all make sense at theend.
So those are the ways not tolook at things, when we are
going through them.
And then a is action, which, youknow, we talked a little bit
about this.
When I say even for psychpatients, we tell them exercise
is important, it's healthy, dietis important.

(42:04):
Always take one small actionevery day in the right.
Direction of what you want foryour life.
It could be something small.
It depends on what you'redealing with.
You know, for some people, evengetting up out of bed taking a
10 minute walk, maybe in yourhouse around the street.
Could just be all that you needto get through that day.

(42:26):
For some people it can be assmall as that, but if you are,
you know, for some people youraction could be apply first
College.
If you want to go to college,whatever you need to do school.
Just be get up and go to go toyour job, you know?
At times you wake up, you don'teven feel like getting out of
bed.
know, I

Sanika (42:44):
For real.

at times, you know when they tell
me You don't feel like at timesI feel that way too.
I wake up, I'm like, Hmm, I wishtoday was a break when I could
just stay home, but I still getout of bed and come to work
anyways because I know thatwork.

Sanika (42:56):
I

that

Sanika (42:57):
forward.

So if all of us need to take actions,
p is planning.
We don't just achieve at a placewe do not apply for.
Like I told you for like twoyears before I came to the US I
planned, I had these notebooks.
I was calling friends that werein the US calling senior
colleagues, asking themquestions.
Every question I have, I wouldwrite it down.
I would call people, I would askthree, four, five people.
I would get different responses.

(43:19):
You know, I kept writing.
I kept writing, so I was fullyaway.
So plan, so that, you know, thenI came in with my family.
I'm like, if we all came intogether, are we going to
survive?
Are we going to cope?
What are the options?
What are the strategies?
What do people do?
So planning is very important.
L is learning, and this way Iemphasize.
book every month is what Iencourage everybody to do.
Look books that will stimulateyou.

(43:41):
If, for example, you arestruggling in relationships,
look for people who havesucceeded in relationships.
Read their books and see whatthey are teaching.
You are struggling withacademics or maybe finances.
Get books.
I have books.
I read one every week.
I listen on audio.
It helps us to adapt tosituations, and I've read so
many stories of people that Iknow that I don't have a special

(44:04):
problem.
People have had worse thingsthan this and they have

Sanika (44:09):
Oh

it.

Sanika (44:10):
That minimize anyone's pain.

Wole (Oluwole) Babatu (44:12):
anybody's pain, but when you read other
people's story of some things,some people go through to be
where they are, it's, it's, it'sjust reassuring that.
I know I might be going throughsomething deep right now, but if
x, y, Z could pass through this,like I'm reading, one of the
books I'm reading now isAntonio, Tony Robbins book on
Money Master the Game, and they,he detailed.

(44:34):
How much poverty he had growingup and how, know, dysfunctional
his parents family, he alreadylived in five.
had like five differentstepfathers growing up.
Like it was very traumaticgrowing up and there was just so
much poverty.
But today's the bologna.
So when I read stories likethat, it assures me that no

(44:54):
matter how bad things are.
can turn it around.

Sanika (44:58):
Yeah.

now, what did he do?
What can I learn from him?
What can I borrow from his storyto add to my own life

Sanika (45:05):
Mm-hmm.

far I can go.
I may not necessarily be wherehe is because we have different
purpose, but at the same time,can, at least the best I can be
for myself.
So learning very important, aalliance form mission.
You can do live alone.
That's why we are doing what weare doing now.
I need you, you know, and I needmany other people to get, to get
to where I want to be in life.

(45:27):
So you've got to work with otherpeople.
Then aim is mean.
mission statement, I always telleverybody I have a simple
mission statement.
It could be something simplelike to be a good mother

Sanika (45:37):
Amen.
I love that.
I love the framework, I love thetools.
It gives you an outline of howto adapt, how to move forward.
Right.
And something that you said thatI really, really enjoyed is the
learning aspect.
I deeply believe if I'm notgrowing, I'm dying.

(45:58):
I'm a little sunflower.
It is important for us to levelthe playing field.
Community, be an alliance.
Have people in your space and inyour circle that don't all agree
with you.
You know that you all don't needto see the world the same way,
but their insight will help yougrow.
I love this Wale.
Thank you so much for thisconversation.

(46:21):
You continuously are doingresearch to help the mental and
emotional wellbeing of ourcommunity.
You are practicing deposition,thank you.
So much for this time, for yourknowledge, your expertise it's
important for us to understand,you know, the three legged stool
concept in our pursuit to bewell human beings.

(46:45):
And this is how do you divineadapt.
Thank you.

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