May 21, 2025 • 66 mins
In this episode of Sanika engages in a profound conversation with Andrew Davies about the concept of empathy. They delve into Andrew's personal experiences and how empathy has played a crucial role in his life, both personally and professionally. The discussion touches on the importance of seeing people beyond their roles in corporate settings, the impact of childhood experiences on developing empathy, and how improvisation can help build stronger, more empathetic teams. They also explore how empathy can bridge cultural and racial divides, foster better communication, and overcome fear-based biases. Tune in for an insightful dialogue on defining and practicing empathy in various aspects of life.
Books mentioned during the episode
- Supercommunicators by Charles Duhigg
- Martin Luther King - I Have a Dream speech
Thank you for listening and for adding new dimensions to your definitions. Keep growing, keep exploring, and keep defining life on your terms.
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Meet our Founder & Host 🎙️
Sanika is a storyteller, communicator, and creator passionate about exploring self-discovery, culture, and the power of words. With a background in technology and marketing communications; she has built a platform dedicated to authentic conversations that inspire growth, challenge perspectives, and amplify voices.
As the host of How Do You Divine?, she invites listeners to redefine meaning, embrace transformation, and navigate life—one word at a time. Her mission? To create space for reflection, empowerment, and deeper connections through storytelling.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sanika (00:00):
Welcome back to this episode of How Do You Divine,
and today we're here with AndrewDavies and we are ready to
explore the word empathy.
Andrew, thank you so much forcoming to the podcast and just
making time to be here and be apart of this conversation.
I'm so grateful.
Give us some more background.
Who's Andrew?
(00:29):
Yeah.
(01:18):
Nice.
I love that.
Thank you so much.
And I, one thing when we firstmet that really stood out is how
you have been able to combineyour passions along with your
purpose and really are out therein the world, you know, making
(01:38):
an impact not only in corporatespaces, but also for children in
their younger years.
Can you remember in your youngeryears, the first time you've
came into a situation or aconversation with a friend that
made you realize like, maybe I'ma bit empathetic, or that was an
empathetic moment?
Because I think often when wethink about what is empathy, we
(01:59):
don't necessarily know how topinpoint the definition outside
of obviously the dictionary,right?
But it's like, what is thatempathetic feeling or moment
that really stuck with you earlyon that made you feel like, I do
love people and I wanna do more?
(03:52):
Yes.
I love it.
(04:22):
Yes, for sure.
And I love that, right?
And I say, always say that thatis a benefit I have as well.
Growing up in New York City.
Right in Brooklyn in publicschool.
It was a melting pot.
I had friends from differentrace culture all over.
And I love the fact that earlieron in, in your journey, you were
able not only to see empathy inyour environment, but you were
(04:44):
like, oh, wait, there's a momenthere where I can be a character,
kind of put on the, the, the,the body and the image of
someone else and see how would Igo about this?
Right?
How will I be a father at 10,right?
For this play.
But it's these artisticactivities that stretch us and
stretch our minds and our heartsto see how other people live.
(05:09):
Right?
And I, for me, I always seeempathy as how you would want to
be treated at your lowest.
You know what I mean?
And just always think that thereis another story.
Everyone's dealing withsomething.
And I think when we say empathyand being empathetic to one
another, it's often difficult toverbally display, verbally
(05:31):
articulate, I should say.
But I think it should be moreeasier to, in physical form,
display what empathy looks like.
Right.
Because I've, like, you're incorporate spaces doing improv,
helping people work bettertogether.
How have you seen different, um,signs of empathy and what's were
some exercises that you'retrying to invoke in them so that
(05:54):
they not only understand whereeach other is coming from, but
also understand the difficultiesof each person's position on
that team?
(07:25):
Yes, yes.
(08:04):
Yep.
Absolutely agree a hundredpercent.
Ugh.
(08:46):
Absolutely.
The empathy grows.
The respect grows.
Right.
And I love that you said that.
'cause in, in my corporatespaces, I say that all the time
that I can separate the humanfrom the role.
Right, because often sometimeswe just see people as their
role.
What, what are they contributingto the project?
What are they contributing tothe organization?
And when we separate those twothings and start to see each
(09:09):
other as humans, we'll realizethat everyone, everyone, no one
knows everything, right?
No one knows everything.
And actively being ready andwilling to learn from one
another.
Because that, to me, you, Ithink you put it perfectly, is a
sign of empathy.
Just always being in the postureto learn and also to respect
(09:29):
each other as individuals.
Separate from your actual title?
(09:50):
Yes.
And the humanness of it.
(10:23):
Yeah, for sure.
Absolutely.
And everyone being of one, whichreminds me, it's so funny you
said, um, I was gonna say Bibleverse, but actually is Jamaicans
something that we say is out ofmany one people.
Right.
And it's just always reminds methat we can have many
personalities, definiteexperiences, but out of all of
us, we are just one.
(10:43):
Right.
Which also aligns withChristianity, right?
'cause you know, I, I am abeliever of Christ and I love
the Lord.
And I feel like if Jesus taughtus nothing, it's too always see
each other as a brother and asister, like as a sibling,
approach things with love.
Like, and I think some way,somehow we lose that in these
(11:04):
different spaces in corporatespaces.
And even when you're trying to,um, go out in the world and find
friendship and things like that,we always, in my perspective,
have this posture of protection.
And it's like, don't protect,don't protect something that
already is right.
(11:25):
You are who you are.
Just always lean into learning.
And that to me is what empathyis.
If you approach everyconversation, every room ready
to just show up as yourself,like you said, every, there is
gonna always be some form ofcode switching, some form of, I
I always say presentation,Because you're there, there are
(11:46):
levels to your full self, but italso allows you to be empathetic
to others.
'cause sometimes you can get toomuch in your head.
And then it's like, how can I beempathetic when I'm standing
here worried that someone'sgonna think I don't not ready
for this meeting and that I wasnot prepared for this job?
Like, how can you then beempathetic if you are so caught
up with what's going on withyourself?
(12:08):
Right?
So how have you helped peoplenavigate, like their internal, I
don't know if insecurities isthe right word, but their
internal reservations to reallyshow up.
Like that's the beauty ofimprov, right?
Like forces you outside ofyourself, but how have you done
that?
(13:55):
That's it.
(14:36):
Okay.
can't say I'm sick and tired ofYes, yes, yes, yes.
(16:03):
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
(16:42):
can't do that.
Yes.
(17:05):
Yes, we're gonna recreate, youknow, that Titanic moment for
(17:29):
you maybe out.
And then the idea gets better,right?
Because then everyone now startsto contribute to just not that
idea, but the overall feelingthat we want to con convey for
this picnic.
And I think you hit it right onthe head, that sense of radical
support, right?
(17:50):
Because I think in bothcorporate spaces, your
friendships and in your family,I think what we are looking for
is that support.
And especially in corporate,when you're like, when you're
trying to be your best, and likeI ran a team before, I always
tell people we are as good asour lowest performing team
member.
That is who we are.
Like that is how well we arebecause we all, we don't all
(18:13):
have to be at the same level ofexcellence and presentation, and
you're building contracts andwho's doing the right proposals,
but we all support each other.
At the same level of intensityever.
When anyone stands up and hassomething to say or contribute
to a project, I want everyone tobe involved.
I want everyone to be cheeringthem on because we can learn
(18:33):
from everyone's journey.
So I love that radical sense ofsupport that you like create,
which again, ultimately buildsthat internal empathy, right?
For who that person is.
Because the person who saidlike, let's go on a yacht,
everyone can be like, that'scrazy.
That makes absolutely no sense.
But when you say yes and youopen, you first validate their
(18:55):
experience, right?
And I think it's important thatwhen we think about being
empathetic to one another andnot starting with that no
mentality, there is a sense ofvalidation not only for who they
are, but what they've gonethrough, right?
And just saying yes and goes,alright, you see me, you hear
(19:17):
me?
Let's make it better together.
Let's make it better together,right?
Because empathy is not onlyjust, um, I would say the soft
moments, right?
It's not just allowing someoneto cry on your shoulder or being
a listening ear, it's alsoallowing someone to become who
they are in any opportunity,right?
If it's a meeting, if it's a,it's a celebration.
(19:38):
Allowing someone to be, feelfree, to be themselves around
you is empathy.
(20:56):
That, that absolutely, that,absolutely that, because
everyone has a significantamount of value to add to any
conversation in every meeting.
And it doesn't necessarily haveto align with what you feel like
is the best thing, but everysingle person has value.
So I love that.
Like it's kind of the saying of,um, take the meat and leave the
(21:18):
bones right when you are goingthrough.
And that's the beauty of likeimprov and performative arts
that I think translate intoreal, in real life, right?
Because you can be presenting,um, a presenting in a meeting or
walking through a proposal andyou see that something is not
resonating with the audience.
Pivot.
I do a lot of speakingengagements in conferences and
(21:40):
there are things that rev up thecrowd and there are things that
make the crowd think and thereare things that, you know,
they're not probably ready todive into.
It's too harsh, like transitionmoments.
The ability to be ready to pivotand take what was working and
evolve it and move it forward inreal time.
It not only shows how you are.
(22:00):
A actively engaged with youraudience and the people you're
talking to.
It also acknowledges that you,yourself are showing yourself
empathy that, hey, that, that,that last sentence didn't work,
so I'm gonna keep moving.
That last presentation didn'twork, so I'm gonna keep moving.
And that's the beauty of improv.
(22:33):
Yes.
(24:12):
Exactly.
In whatever moment we Exactly.
And in such a large audience.
And it's also that, that, goingback to that empathy of him
trusting his gut, he knew like,you know, I, I, I too have
watched all the documentariesand I, and I.
Always felt like he, there wassomething in his gut that said,
(24:32):
I can do this and I'm gonna keepgoing and I'm gonna improvise.
And I'm going to picture of the,I am gonna articulate the dream
in which I know the P dream inwhich I, I believe in and in
front of this large audience,which is totally not what I've
planned on talking about Andlook Yes.
(25:20):
It is part of the collective, itis part of that, that team of
people that you put togetherthat believe in what you believe
in, that are aligned with thepurposes that you are aligned
with, that, you know, and thenit's similar to like this
conversation, right?
I'm a Christian, you and you'rea Jewish and we can have this
conversation.
We have so many similarities andhow we see life and how we live
life.
And just understanding that youhaving people around you that
(25:42):
you trust that radical sense ofsupport is how greatness is
built.
And it reminds me actually of,of Barack Obama, I read his book
and did you know Barack Obamaactually used to be a bad
speaker?
Did you know that?
Like he would speak Yeah, hewould speak too quickly.
He would, he would speak tooquickly.
He was too pointed and he, hiswhole team told him one day like
(26:03):
he was going to town halls andwas like, you need to speak
slower.
You need to speak slower.
You need to know exactly whatyou wanna say in your head
before you say it.
And it was, and it was like, itwas very heartwarming for me,
who speaks a lot, but always,you know, there's always room
for improvement that he had toteach himself to slow down in
(26:25):
his communication so that itresonated with people.
People would tell him howcharming he was in conversation,
but when he got up to speak, itwas too quick.
They would lose him in in all ofhis ideas.
Right.
And over time his team, his teamkept like they did workshops
with him.
He started doing town halls withslower, with like slower
(26:48):
speaking, shorter points.
And that's how he got Great.
So you ring up the Martin Lutherthi.
Martin Luther King.
I have a dream speech.
Reminded me of those momentswhen I read in the Barack Obama
book about him being a good,like he would connect with the
people, but people would walkaway not knowing exactly what he
said.
'cause he said so much, It wastoo, it was rapid fire.
(27:11):
And so it wouldn't resonate.
And then trusting in thatradical sense of support, the
people around him, around himhaving empathy not only to who
he was, but what he was tryingto do and why his speech was so
quick, and why it was sopassionate and why he just
always felt like he had to hitit.
If I got two minutes, I'm gonnahit it in two minutes.
(27:32):
And they had to tell him thathitting, trying to hit all those
points in two minutes actuallyloses all of the points.
Yes.
(28:10):
And thought and like, yes.
And to slow down and be able toproperly articulate what you're
feeling and what you desire outof the conversation.
And I think as we move throughlife trying to show each other
empathy, that's a key thing thatthe audience can take away.
It's just slowing down ingeneral, right?
(28:30):
In in general, allows you to bepresent in the moment and
actually respond.
In the way that you'd like to.
Right.
That's why I love improv becausewhile improv is quick and you
have to be ready and you're onyour feet, it all, it actually
teaches you this, the muscle ofbeing present, because you can't
be, you can't be an empatheticperson without being present in
(28:53):
the moment, and often we're justrunning through life, right?
We're just like, we have tasksto complete, jobs to do and
we're running through life.
But how can you be that radicalsense of support and show
empathy not only to yourself,but the people around you that
you love as well as like thespaces you occupy if you're not
present?
(29:35):
Nice.
(30:27):
Hundred percent, yes.
(30:54):
Yes.
We're like, yes, absolutely,yes.
(31:33):
Same.
I think it's, it starts fromfair, if I'm honest.
I think the bridging ofcommunities start from fair.
I think everyone feels thatthey're not gonna understand.
They're not gonna understand me.
They're white.
I'm black, I'm a woman.
This is a guy.
They're not gonna understand me.
And I always like to articulatethat.
That's coming from a place offear.
Or of a bad experience.
(31:54):
Right.
And that's where I lean in.
I'm super empathetic.
Like, tell me why have you hadthat experience?
And I've learned that I've hadsuch a unique upbringing because
again, I went to public schoolin Brooklyn.
One of my first best friends waswhite girl.
Her name was Jenny.
Hi Jenny.
Like, um, and you know, it'sridiculous to say you don't see
race.
'cause race, ma like race,ethnicity, it all is there and
(32:16):
it's very transparent.
And, but I've just always hadfriends across the gambit
because of the relationships.
Right.
But in our community, I do stillsee those silos.
And I'm always the one that'slike, why?
Like, why can't we just go tothis club?
Or let's go to this restaurant,not because there's not a bunch
of black people there.
We will be the first sense ofblack people that go there, you
(32:38):
know?
And I, I know it stems fromfair.
And I know it stems from havingsometimes bad experiences, but
I'm always leaning in when I'mlike, be more empathetic.
'cause you don't know theexperiences that one person had
and you can't judge a slew ofpeople based on one experience.
Just like, I don't wanna bejudged for being a black woman.
(33:01):
I don't wanna judge anyone forjust being a white guy.
Like you understand what I mean?
Like, because we're so much morethan that.
We're so much more than that.
So while I do see those silos, Ialso have pockets of friends
that don't care.
Like, you know what I mean?
And my friend, my personalfriendship circle goes across
the whole gamut.
I have family members that'spart of the LGBTQ club.
(33:23):
I have friends that's part ofthe lgbtq plus community.
I have friends of all differentraces and religions, right?
Because I just think as humanbeings, there's so much we can
learn from each other.
There is so much I have learnedfrom human beings that.
I could have never learned if Ijust stuck in my own blocks and
was like, I only speak to blackpeople because that I only speak
(33:46):
to Caribbean people becausethat's the people who know me
and understand me.
But I do think it stems from aplace of fear, and that's why I
think leaning in and showing asense of empathy for not just
who they are, but theirexperiences is how we bridge the
gap.
Right.
Making it okay to say, I've hadsuch a horrible experience with
(34:07):
this one person and I, that'swhat I would personally love.
I'd love if we would articulate,even if we had racist in their
interactions, you know, and orjust horrible experiences in
different communities that itwas articulated as that person,
not people.
Right, because that's ultimatelywhat it is.
(34:30):
People have bad experiences withother individuals and they make
these generalizations of who youare and what they are, which is
not fair.
I just don't think it's fair toanyone because I remember I was
in college and we were doing aproject.
I've always loved marketingcommunications and as you can
tell, I'm a talker and I'm justlike all the things.
(34:52):
And it was this, um, white boyand he was just like, are you
ever afraid to do this?
And I was like, do what?
He was like, be amongst like allof us.
Because to be fair, I wasprobably like the second or
third black person there.
Like, it was like a room oflike, um, over 50 people.
And I was like the second orsecond or third black.
(35:13):
But he was like, are you likeafraid?
I just want you to know like youhave my support.
And I thought that was.
So sweet.
I remember having a wholeconversation and he later
transferred, um, to a differentschool.
'cause I went to school inBrooklyn.
Um, so he later transferred andI remember saying to him how
beautiful, what he just did was,I was like, thank you so much.
(35:34):
I was like, I appreciate thatyou saw the difference in the
room.
And my response was, no.
I was like, I learned a longtime ago.
I can't hide.
So I'm very much okay, but Iappreciate that you understand
that are, that there are peoplethat look like me that are not
comfortable when we are only oneor two in the room.
(35:56):
and it's that empathy piece.
I think it's the piece of, ofjust being more empathetic to
everyone's experience in thisworld.
Do you know what I mean?
Because everyone unfortunatelyhas had both good and bad
experiences and sometimes whenthe bad experiences overweigh
the good ones, it becomes thosepeople.
And I'm, I've been in manyconversations when they're like,
(36:16):
oh, Sonika.
And I'm like,'cause it's notthose people, it's that person
that is someone's son, father,daughter.
Like that one person had nointegrity, that one person was
wrong.
But we can't just like, again, Idon't want anyone to say black
women are like X because youcame across Sonika.
Because I am not arepresentation of every single
(36:39):
black woman in the world.
What I'm is a representation ofSonika.
So that to me is how ourcommunities are Will.
Over time become one, right.
Leaning in and being moreempathetic and understanding
that if we acknowledgeeveryone's experience, both good
(37:00):
and bad, and be more empatheticto their reservations, that's
how we draw closer and closertogether.
Because I think often peoplewanna dismiss the sides that are
uncomfortable, to be quitehonest, right?
Like it's, it's too hard to talkabout.
It's too hard to be a part of.
And it's like, can we just not,can we not talk about it?
(37:21):
And, which is so interestingbecause in a way, the Caribbean
culture has taken that on andmade it disowned because in the
Caribbean culture, if someincident or there was a
conversation or somethinghappened with family or friends
that left some, you know,unsettled feelings, instead of
sitting down and addressingthose feelings head on, they'll
(37:43):
just ignore it.
They'll won't talk for two,like, you know, two weeks, a
week or two.
They'll ignore it and then likearound a holiday or you know, a
month later they're like, Hey,haven't seen you.
How are you?
And just, you know, kind of ro Icall it the robot through.
Are you doing fine?
Are you doing good?
Are we good?
Yeah.
Can we just move forward,forward and just let, we don't
(38:04):
need to talk about that.
And that to me is sodetrimental.
Like it's so toxic in its itsformat and I don't allow people
to do it.
I'm like, absolutely not.
We are gonna have a conversationof what happened, how you felt,
and how you made me feel.
We're gonna show each otherempathy throughout the
situation, and then we can moveforward.
I just don't believe in walkingaround with rugs that have a
(38:27):
bunch of stuff stuffed under it.
You know what I.
(39:20):
Yep, exactly.
Box checked.
(39:55):
Nice.
(40:53):
Yeah.
Wow.
Yeah.
(41:21):
Yeah.
(41:49):
Yes, that part.
(43:08):
Yes.
Yeah, yeah.
Yes, yes, yes.
(43:38):
And just, and say hi, my name isright.
Because like you said, that tome that passive, it's, you said
so much there and I wanted tolike, that's one of the main
reasons I created this podcast,right, is one to loudly say.
(44:02):
How we have defined things canbe different for me as an
individual in various stages ofmy life.
And then how is that divinedefinition aligned with who I
am?
What happened to agreeing todisagree?
I feel like at one point we wereall so open to agreeing to
(44:23):
disagree with someone's thoughtor perspective on a topic.
And it was separate, right?
It was separate from the humanbeing.
It was like, oh, I think it'srainy today.
And you're like, oh, it's notraining.
It's just drizzling, sonika.
And that we agreed to disagree.
It wasn't sneaker.
You're an idiot.
I just like, you know what Imean?
Now my character and my moralityand everyone is into question
(44:44):
because we disagree on a topic,A topic that, by the way, we
both may feel very differentabout.
In a day or two because based oninformation like you, yourself,
your definitions and yourperspectives on things change
over the course of your life.
Why tear other people down?
Because that perspective isdifferent.
(45:05):
It's one of the main reasons Icreated this podcast because of
the level of di di diversity,um, division that I saw in the
space.
It was just let's, let's beangry at one another because we
don't agree the same thing.
Right?
Let's label each other.
And while there's so muchcomfort in saying like, oh,
I've, I have a friend who lookedlike this.
(45:25):
I work with a person who lookedlike you, boom, checked off.
I know what kind of person youare.
We have to acknowledge that thatis very passive behavior and we
would hate if anyone would dothat to us.
'cause, and that, and I alwaysremind someone of that.
Like you can look like theJewish guy I work with.
That doesn't mean Andrew.
Andrew and David is the sameperson.
(45:46):
Like that does, and I don't.
And you understand what, and Ipersonally don't even think of
Andrew and David as the person,same person.
And that's what makes me thinkmy upbringing was, I think
sometimes that I'm weird.
'cause my, I was like, but therewas a bunch of kids in that
class because in elementaryschool we learned how to dle, we
learned about Yom Kippur, we didChinese New Year.
(46:08):
Like I know about all the Muslimholidays.
Like this was every single monthat school and elementary school.
PS 91 in Brooklyn.
Like throughout my entire myacademic career as a child here
in New York City, us being,coming from different cultures,
different religions, lookingdifferent was something that we
(46:30):
celebrated.
I remember every month we wouldhave you, it's called, it was
called like You Plus Me.
So we would have to get on stagein the middle, on the auditorium
and tell about our culture andthen how it can help your
culture.
And then like the whole class,so like the class stood up on
the, on the side, and I wouldhave to go and I'd go, Sonika,
(46:52):
I'm Jamaican and I'm black andmixed with Cuban, my culture can
do.
And then you walk off and thenthe next person was like, I'm
Chinese, we can do da da.
And then like, and then you walkoff and then like, and then
every, but we did it class byclass and then everyone had to
do a project about what youlearn from each other.
Like, it was just so much funand curiosity and collaboration.
(47:17):
So, you know, kind of growingup, going to college and
entering a corporate world andseeing how other people thought
was still to this day, veryweird to me.
I'm not gonna lie to you.
I'm not gonna lie to you.
It's very, I wouldn't sayuncomfortable.
It makes me weak for them if I'mhonest.
I'm so em and like people that Icome across that's like hard
(47:38):
grained in their ways and whatthey think immigrants are and
all of these things, I honestlyweep for you.
Like, to me, I'm so empathetic.
I'm, I don't get mad'cause Ireally feel like, because people
only know what they know andunless an individual opens up to
want to know more, they'll onlyknow what they know.
Right.
So it's like, it's like tryingto convince a wall it needs
(48:01):
water.
Unless it opens up it can't getit.
So.
How I am always, I always justweep for them.
'cause I'm just like, you don'tknow how great life could be if
you, if you were amongsteveryone.
You don't know how beautifullife is unless you have people
of different cultures like, haveyou attended a Muslim wedding?
(48:23):
It's freaking amazing.
Have you attended an Africanwedding?
OMG?
Like, you know what, like, it'sjust so I'm like, have you had
the Yum Kaur cookies?
They are good.
Like these are, these are thingsthat I just feel like it's your
choice.
It is a choice and we have tostop living life so passively
and expecting to live lifefully.
(48:45):
It's not how it works.
There are people that live anddie every single day and never
lived a day in their life.
So if you were, if you're gonnabe passive and say like, I saw
this, saw this black woman,she's like this, like this black
woman.
I know I don't wanna engage.
You just missed an opportunityto find a friend that can help
you.
Like, you know what I mean?
Same thing.
Like if we just see people fortheir race and their religion,
(49:07):
there's so much missedopportunity for happiness
outside of learning.
There's so much happiness andcollaboration.
And to me, I'm, I'm alwayschasing happiness and safety.
So I'm just, I wait for them, ifI'm honest.
So that's why to me, mycommunity is so mixed because I
have such a good time.
(49:29):
I genuinely and sincerely, likeI have two daughters we like,
and my husband, we, our wholevillage is so mixed.
'cause we have such a good timelearning from each other.
Like, you know what I mean?
Like, my friend who's Korean andshe's a pastry chef.
And I love me some pastries.
She doesn't bake for me anymorebecause I love too many
pastries.
(49:49):
But we talk so much about Koreanculture and like there are so
many similarities in cultures.
Once you get to know people,like, you know, the, the
overbearing parent that thinksyou should be married or a
adopted, like there are so many,there are so many similarities
that we can laugh on and love oneach other and give each other
(50:11):
that radical sense of supportfor that are missed
opportunities because we wannalive life passively based on
generalization.
(51:01):
Oh, the.
(52:15):
Yep.
(52:59):
It is not, it's not true.
And realize that it's not real.
Like, and that's the part thatalways gets me.
I'm just like, again, realizethat what generalization,
whatever box you created thatmakes that comfort to you,
right, that makes your hatejustified, understand that it's
not real.
Like it's not based on actualfacts, it is based on the
(53:20):
opinions and the stories thatyou created to comfort yourself.
And that's where, to me, I'malways, again, I feel bad for
them.
I'm, that's really honestly andtruthfully where I sit, because
hatred comes from a place offear.
Somewhere deep down or probablyright in front of your face.
You are afraid of something.
You are afraid that this personmight be smarter than you.
This person might get ahead thanyou, like you are afraid.
(53:42):
That's all hatred is fearamplified.
And unfortunately, it takes alot of self courage and self
accountability to move pastfear.
That's why it's easy to be like,yeah, to the immigrants taking
all the jobs or whatever crazyrhetoric is this week.
It's like, you know, you two cango out and get a job, like no
(54:05):
one's stopping you.
Like there is, there are nobarriers in your way to get what
you want.
And if there are, call out thebarriers.
How is it the people, I'm surethere's not someone like kicking
you out the door saying, no, youcan't get this job.
I'm here first.
That's not how that works.
But unfortunately, I think it'sjust, it's the comforting of the
(54:26):
fair, right?
You create these stories andthere are messages and things
out there that comfort youbecause ultimately in order for
you to move past hate, you haveto be willing to tap into
intelligence, right?
Like you actually, you have to.
There's no like, and there's noway you can be filled with hate
and say like, I'm also supersmart, really.
(54:50):
intelligence is aligned with agreat deal of curiosity.
Like you were talking about, um,like with Trump and Trump
voters, there is, I think thebook is called Master of
Communication.
If not, I'm gonna put it in the,the notes of this.
But the book was amazing, right?
It it's basically about howpeople are able to communicate
with one another regardless ofwhat, what side of the argument
(55:13):
that they're on.
I read it right after I readlike the negotiation books.
I like these books.
I'm a happy little nerd, Andrewsuppose of myself, right?
But ultimately what they did wascreate, it wasn't like a test
group.
They invited all of thesepolitical, um, talking heads,
right?
Just commentators, um, evenlegislators to a room that had
(55:38):
opposing opinions about therights to bear arms.
Right.
They brought'em all to the room.
No one knew who was coming tothe meeting.
So when everyone got to themeeting, and I'm paraphrasing
the story to get to it, but wheneveryone got to the room, they
all came together and realizedwho each other was, right?
So they made the assumption thatthey were gonna talk about the
(55:59):
right to bear arms, and then theperson running the room asks a
very personal question aboutlike, something like wouldn't
last you lost someone you loved.
And everyone started sharingstories of like someone in their
family that they lost fordifferent reasons, sicknesses or
whatever, and they just keptasking them personal questions
(56:23):
about similar experiences.
When's the last time someone youloved disappointed you?
Like these were the questionsthat they were asking in the
room, right?
So as they continue to havethese conversations and, and
pose the question to the groupand they keep talking and
they're sharing these veryvulnerable moments about
themselves, the next day theysaid, so what about the right to
(56:46):
bear arms?
The conversation wassignificantly different because
they spent the day beforelearning about who each other
was, not what their stance onthe topic was, but so when I say
it was, it's a beautiful book.
I'm definitely gonna put it inthe notes, but it just also
shows that when you take.
(57:08):
The topic off the table,whatever it is, we can disagree.
And that's why I always say thatwe make politics and all these
things so much bigger than whileit impacts a lot of people.
So I'm not gonna negate that.
It's not a big topic, but weneed to separate the topic from
the people.
And because, and that's the partthat's crazy.
(57:40):
I feel like it has happened nowover the last decade.
I don't, I just don't feel likeit's always been this way.
Maybe I was just naive or maybeI'm just too young.
I just never, I never felt itwas this way, especially in New
York and New York politics, likethere were people that were
actively disagreeing on issuesand found a middle ground.
(59:12):
Yes.
(59:40):
that part, that part.
(01:00:06):
But I feel like honestly it's,it's been amplified a lot due to
loneliness, if I'm honest.
I feel like it has beenamplified a lot.
I think the, the residue ofCOVID still lives very heavily
in today's culture.
Right.
And what people don'tunderstand, unfortunately, like
people are rewarded for negativebehavior online.
(01:00:28):
That's just the honest, that'sthe, that's the facts of the
matter.
Right?
And sometimes they just wantengagement.
Yes.
And unfortunately, when peopleare festered and they're filled
with fear and they're lonely,there is not a large demand for
(01:00:51):
people to be like, oh, you'revalued, you, you're worthy.
Like, those conversations aren'tas loud as the, I'm gonna go on
a blog and say something meanin, in an effort to get someone
to respond back to me.
And like, you know what?
Like,'cause that's what ends uphappening.
It's rewarded behavior it'sinteresting to see a fact run
against an opinion.
Right in a, on a, you know, aone man, a one-on-one man race,
(01:01:13):
just like how we used to do askids, right on the street, you
take one corner and who, whogets to the next corner first?
A fact can never outrun a lie.
It, it's just, it can't, becauseunfortunately, especially
online, the lie has so many morecheers.
There are so many more people onthe sideline, like.
(01:01:36):
It's more exciting.
What else?
What did you say?
What did they do?
Like, you know, it's just,unfortunately, it's just so, it,
it, it commands more attentionand ultimately that's what they
want.
They want attention becausethey're fearful.
And that's where I just lean inwith empathy.
I'm just like, what is thisreally about?
You have to be super intentionalabout identifying what's the
(01:02:01):
goal of this interaction?
Like, you know, what do I wantfrom this?
Because often when you, there'sbeen so many situations, and
this kind of one of the reasons,again, I decided to create the
podcast where people are come upto me or I'll be in the
situation and I'll see it forwhat it is, and I'm like, well,
what are you really angry about?
Like, I know that this is, let'sjust say the proposal or the
(01:02:23):
contract we're talking about,but all that aside, what is
really bothering you?
How can I help this be better?
Not just on paper, but inoverall, and that's.
When you get to the realconversation by showing each
other empathy and being presentand showing that I genuinely and
sincerely care about humanbeings.
(01:02:44):
And I don't want anyone to bein, not only in my space, but in
my community, feeling like theyare worth nothing.
Like no one cares about you thatbecause you look a certain way
or because you speak a certainway, right?
Or you're, you have a differentaccent.
Or because you don't speakproper English, that you are of
any less value than anybody elsein this community.
(01:03:05):
'cause that is not the truth.
It isn't just the facts of thematter.
And I always say it's not aboutwhat I feel.
I'm a person who operates infacts and numbers.
It's not the truth.
You have value because you areas substantial as I am.
Substantial factually, right?
So how like it's just leaning inand showing each other that
(01:03:25):
level of empathy.
And that level of being presentand slowing down and not living
life passively is what it's allabout.
Andrew, thank you so much.
This has been such a wonderfulconversation.
It has fed me tremendously and Ihope you really enjoyed and I
hope our audience enjoyed,right?
Because how we come to definethese things that truly drive
(01:03:49):
our lives and who we are, suchas empathy is not an easy thing,
but it's worth the journey.
Awesome.
Thank you so much.
(01:04:09):
And this is how do you divineempathy.
Welcome back to this episode of How Do You Divine,
and today we're here with AndrewDavies and we are ready to
explore the word empathy.
Andrew, thank you so much forcoming to the podcast and just
making time to be here and be apart of this conversation.
I'm so grateful.
Give us some more background.
Who's Andrew?
(00:29):
Yeah.
(01:18):
Nice.
I love that.
Thank you so much.
And I, one thing when we firstmet that really stood out is how
you have been able to combineyour passions along with your
purpose and really are out therein the world, you know, making
(01:38):
an impact not only in corporatespaces, but also for children in
their younger years.
Can you remember in your youngeryears, the first time you've
came into a situation or aconversation with a friend that
made you realize like, maybe I'ma bit empathetic, or that was an
empathetic moment?
Because I think often when wethink about what is empathy, we
(01:59):
don't necessarily know how topinpoint the definition outside
of obviously the dictionary,right?
But it's like, what is thatempathetic feeling or moment
that really stuck with you earlyon that made you feel like, I do
love people and I wanna do more?
(03:52):
Yes.
I love it.
(04:22):
Yes, for sure.
And I love that, right?
And I say, always say that thatis a benefit I have as well.
Growing up in New York City.
Right in Brooklyn in publicschool.
It was a melting pot.
I had friends from differentrace culture all over.
And I love the fact that earlieron in, in your journey, you were
able not only to see empathy inyour environment, but you were
(04:44):
like, oh, wait, there's a momenthere where I can be a character,
kind of put on the, the, the,the body and the image of
someone else and see how would Igo about this?
Right?
How will I be a father at 10,right?
For this play.
But it's these artisticactivities that stretch us and
stretch our minds and our heartsto see how other people live.
(05:09):
Right?
And I, for me, I always seeempathy as how you would want to
be treated at your lowest.
You know what I mean?
And just always think that thereis another story.
Everyone's dealing withsomething.
And I think when we say empathyand being empathetic to one
another, it's often difficult toverbally display, verbally
(05:31):
articulate, I should say.
But I think it should be moreeasier to, in physical form,
display what empathy looks like.
Right.
Because I've, like, you're incorporate spaces doing improv,
helping people work bettertogether.
How have you seen different, um,signs of empathy and what's were
some exercises that you'retrying to invoke in them so that
(05:54):
they not only understand whereeach other is coming from, but
also understand the difficultiesof each person's position on
that team?
(07:25):
Yes, yes.
(08:04):
Yep.
Absolutely agree a hundredpercent.
Ugh.
(08:46):
Absolutely.
The empathy grows.
The respect grows.
Right.
And I love that you said that.
'cause in, in my corporatespaces, I say that all the time
that I can separate the humanfrom the role.
Right, because often sometimeswe just see people as their
role.
What, what are they contributingto the project?
What are they contributing tothe organization?
And when we separate those twothings and start to see each
(09:09):
other as humans, we'll realizethat everyone, everyone, no one
knows everything, right?
No one knows everything.
And actively being ready andwilling to learn from one
another.
Because that, to me, you, Ithink you put it perfectly, is a
sign of empathy.
Just always being in the postureto learn and also to respect
(09:29):
each other as individuals.
Separate from your actual title?
(09:50):
Yes.
And the humanness of it.
(10:23):
Yeah, for sure.
Absolutely.
And everyone being of one, whichreminds me, it's so funny you
said, um, I was gonna say Bibleverse, but actually is Jamaicans
something that we say is out ofmany one people.
Right.
And it's just always reminds methat we can have many
personalities, definiteexperiences, but out of all of
us, we are just one.
(10:43):
Right.
Which also aligns withChristianity, right?
'cause you know, I, I am abeliever of Christ and I love
the Lord.
And I feel like if Jesus taughtus nothing, it's too always see
each other as a brother and asister, like as a sibling,
approach things with love.
Like, and I think some way,somehow we lose that in these
(11:04):
different spaces in corporatespaces.
And even when you're trying to,um, go out in the world and find
friendship and things like that,we always, in my perspective,
have this posture of protection.
And it's like, don't protect,don't protect something that
already is right.
(11:25):
You are who you are.
Just always lean into learning.
And that to me is what empathyis.
If you approach everyconversation, every room ready
to just show up as yourself,like you said, every, there is
gonna always be some form ofcode switching, some form of, I
I always say presentation,Because you're there, there are
(11:46):
levels to your full self, but italso allows you to be empathetic
to others.
'cause sometimes you can get toomuch in your head.
And then it's like, how can I beempathetic when I'm standing
here worried that someone'sgonna think I don't not ready
for this meeting and that I wasnot prepared for this job?
Like, how can you then beempathetic if you are so caught
up with what's going on withyourself?
(12:08):
Right?
So how have you helped peoplenavigate, like their internal, I
don't know if insecurities isthe right word, but their
internal reservations to reallyshow up.
Like that's the beauty ofimprov, right?
Like forces you outside ofyourself, but how have you done
that?
(13:55):
That's it.
(14:36):
Okay.
can't say I'm sick and tired ofYes, yes, yes, yes.
(16:03):
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
(16:42):
can't do that.
Yes.
(17:05):
Yes, we're gonna recreate, youknow, that Titanic moment for
(17:29):
you maybe out.
And then the idea gets better,right?
Because then everyone now startsto contribute to just not that
idea, but the overall feelingthat we want to con convey for
this picnic.
And I think you hit it right onthe head, that sense of radical
support, right?
(17:50):
Because I think in bothcorporate spaces, your
friendships and in your family,I think what we are looking for
is that support.
And especially in corporate,when you're like, when you're
trying to be your best, and likeI ran a team before, I always
tell people we are as good asour lowest performing team
member.
That is who we are.
Like that is how well we arebecause we all, we don't all
(18:13):
have to be at the same level ofexcellence and presentation, and
you're building contracts andwho's doing the right proposals,
but we all support each other.
At the same level of intensityever.
When anyone stands up and hassomething to say or contribute
to a project, I want everyone tobe involved.
I want everyone to be cheeringthem on because we can learn
(18:33):
from everyone's journey.
So I love that radical sense ofsupport that you like create,
which again, ultimately buildsthat internal empathy, right?
For who that person is.
Because the person who saidlike, let's go on a yacht,
everyone can be like, that'scrazy.
That makes absolutely no sense.
But when you say yes and youopen, you first validate their
(18:55):
experience, right?
And I think it's important thatwhen we think about being
empathetic to one another andnot starting with that no
mentality, there is a sense ofvalidation not only for who they
are, but what they've gonethrough, right?
And just saying yes and goes,alright, you see me, you hear
(19:17):
me?
Let's make it better together.
Let's make it better together,right?
Because empathy is not onlyjust, um, I would say the soft
moments, right?
It's not just allowing someoneto cry on your shoulder or being
a listening ear, it's alsoallowing someone to become who
they are in any opportunity,right?
If it's a meeting, if it's a,it's a celebration.
(19:38):
Allowing someone to be, feelfree, to be themselves around
you is empathy.
(20:56):
That, that absolutely, that,absolutely that, because
everyone has a significantamount of value to add to any
conversation in every meeting.
And it doesn't necessarily haveto align with what you feel like
is the best thing, but everysingle person has value.
So I love that.
Like it's kind of the saying of,um, take the meat and leave the
(21:18):
bones right when you are goingthrough.
And that's the beauty of likeimprov and performative arts
that I think translate intoreal, in real life, right?
Because you can be presenting,um, a presenting in a meeting or
walking through a proposal andyou see that something is not
resonating with the audience.
Pivot.
I do a lot of speakingengagements in conferences and
(21:40):
there are things that rev up thecrowd and there are things that
make the crowd think and thereare things that, you know,
they're not probably ready todive into.
It's too harsh, like transitionmoments.
The ability to be ready to pivotand take what was working and
evolve it and move it forward inreal time.
It not only shows how you are.
(22:00):
A actively engaged with youraudience and the people you're
talking to.
It also acknowledges that you,yourself are showing yourself
empathy that, hey, that, that,that last sentence didn't work,
so I'm gonna keep moving.
That last presentation didn'twork, so I'm gonna keep moving.
And that's the beauty of improv.
(22:33):
Yes.
(24:12):
Exactly.
In whatever moment we Exactly.
And in such a large audience.
And it's also that, that, goingback to that empathy of him
trusting his gut, he knew like,you know, I, I, I too have
watched all the documentariesand I, and I.
Always felt like he, there wassomething in his gut that said,
(24:32):
I can do this and I'm gonna keepgoing and I'm gonna improvise.
And I'm going to picture of the,I am gonna articulate the dream
in which I know the P dream inwhich I, I believe in and in
front of this large audience,which is totally not what I've
planned on talking about Andlook Yes.
(25:20):
It is part of the collective, itis part of that, that team of
people that you put togetherthat believe in what you believe
in, that are aligned with thepurposes that you are aligned
with, that, you know, and thenit's similar to like this
conversation, right?
I'm a Christian, you and you'rea Jewish and we can have this
conversation.
We have so many similarities andhow we see life and how we live
life.
And just understanding that youhaving people around you that
(25:42):
you trust that radical sense ofsupport is how greatness is
built.
And it reminds me actually of,of Barack Obama, I read his book
and did you know Barack Obamaactually used to be a bad
speaker?
Did you know that?
Like he would speak Yeah, hewould speak too quickly.
He would, he would speak tooquickly.
He was too pointed and he, hiswhole team told him one day like
(26:03):
he was going to town halls andwas like, you need to speak
slower.
You need to speak slower.
You need to know exactly whatyou wanna say in your head
before you say it.
And it was, and it was like, itwas very heartwarming for me,
who speaks a lot, but always,you know, there's always room
for improvement that he had toteach himself to slow down in
(26:25):
his communication so that itresonated with people.
People would tell him howcharming he was in conversation,
but when he got up to speak, itwas too quick.
They would lose him in in all ofhis ideas.
Right.
And over time his team, his teamkept like they did workshops
with him.
He started doing town halls withslower, with like slower
(26:48):
speaking, shorter points.
And that's how he got Great.
So you ring up the Martin Lutherthi.
Martin Luther King.
I have a dream speech.
Reminded me of those momentswhen I read in the Barack Obama
book about him being a good,like he would connect with the
people, but people would walkaway not knowing exactly what he
said.
'cause he said so much, It wastoo, it was rapid fire.
(27:11):
And so it wouldn't resonate.
And then trusting in thatradical sense of support, the
people around him, around himhaving empathy not only to who
he was, but what he was tryingto do and why his speech was so
quick, and why it was sopassionate and why he just
always felt like he had to hitit.
If I got two minutes, I'm gonnahit it in two minutes.
(27:32):
And they had to tell him thathitting, trying to hit all those
points in two minutes actuallyloses all of the points.
Yes.
(28:10):
And thought and like, yes.
And to slow down and be able toproperly articulate what you're
feeling and what you desire outof the conversation.
And I think as we move throughlife trying to show each other
empathy, that's a key thing thatthe audience can take away.
It's just slowing down ingeneral, right?
(28:30):
In in general, allows you to bepresent in the moment and
actually respond.
In the way that you'd like to.
Right.
That's why I love improv becausewhile improv is quick and you
have to be ready and you're onyour feet, it all, it actually
teaches you this, the muscle ofbeing present, because you can't
be, you can't be an empatheticperson without being present in
(28:53):
the moment, and often we're justrunning through life, right?
We're just like, we have tasksto complete, jobs to do and
we're running through life.
But how can you be that radicalsense of support and show
empathy not only to yourself,but the people around you that
you love as well as like thespaces you occupy if you're not
present?
(29:35):
Nice.
(30:27):
Hundred percent, yes.
(30:54):
Yes.
We're like, yes, absolutely,yes.
(31:33):
Same.
I think it's, it starts fromfair, if I'm honest.
I think the bridging ofcommunities start from fair.
I think everyone feels thatthey're not gonna understand.
They're not gonna understand me.
They're white.
I'm black, I'm a woman.
This is a guy.
They're not gonna understand me.
And I always like to articulatethat.
That's coming from a place offear.
Or of a bad experience.
(31:54):
Right.
And that's where I lean in.
I'm super empathetic.
Like, tell me why have you hadthat experience?
And I've learned that I've hadsuch a unique upbringing because
again, I went to public schoolin Brooklyn.
One of my first best friends waswhite girl.
Her name was Jenny.
Hi Jenny.
Like, um, and you know, it'sridiculous to say you don't see
race.
'cause race, ma like race,ethnicity, it all is there and
(32:16):
it's very transparent.
And, but I've just always hadfriends across the gambit
because of the relationships.
Right.
But in our community, I do stillsee those silos.
And I'm always the one that'slike, why?
Like, why can't we just go tothis club?
Or let's go to this restaurant,not because there's not a bunch
of black people there.
We will be the first sense ofblack people that go there, you
(32:38):
know?
And I, I know it stems fromfair.
And I know it stems from havingsometimes bad experiences, but
I'm always leaning in when I'mlike, be more empathetic.
'cause you don't know theexperiences that one person had
and you can't judge a slew ofpeople based on one experience.
Just like, I don't wanna bejudged for being a black woman.
(33:01):
I don't wanna judge anyone forjust being a white guy.
Like you understand what I mean?
Like, because we're so much morethan that.
We're so much more than that.
So while I do see those silos, Ialso have pockets of friends
that don't care.
Like, you know what I mean?
And my friend, my personalfriendship circle goes across
the whole gamut.
I have family members that'spart of the LGBTQ club.
(33:23):
I have friends that's part ofthe lgbtq plus community.
I have friends of all differentraces and religions, right?
Because I just think as humanbeings, there's so much we can
learn from each other.
There is so much I have learnedfrom human beings that.
I could have never learned if Ijust stuck in my own blocks and
was like, I only speak to blackpeople because that I only speak
(33:46):
to Caribbean people becausethat's the people who know me
and understand me.
But I do think it stems from aplace of fear, and that's why I
think leaning in and showing asense of empathy for not just
who they are, but theirexperiences is how we bridge the
gap.
Right.
Making it okay to say, I've hadsuch a horrible experience with
(34:07):
this one person and I, that'swhat I would personally love.
I'd love if we would articulate,even if we had racist in their
interactions, you know, and orjust horrible experiences in
different communities that itwas articulated as that person,
not people.
Right, because that's ultimatelywhat it is.
(34:30):
People have bad experiences withother individuals and they make
these generalizations of who youare and what they are, which is
not fair.
I just don't think it's fair toanyone because I remember I was
in college and we were doing aproject.
I've always loved marketingcommunications and as you can
tell, I'm a talker and I'm justlike all the things.
(34:52):
And it was this, um, white boyand he was just like, are you
ever afraid to do this?
And I was like, do what?
He was like, be amongst like allof us.
Because to be fair, I wasprobably like the second or
third black person there.
Like, it was like a room oflike, um, over 50 people.
And I was like the second orsecond or third black.
(35:13):
But he was like, are you likeafraid?
I just want you to know like youhave my support.
And I thought that was.
So sweet.
I remember having a wholeconversation and he later
transferred, um, to a differentschool.
'cause I went to school inBrooklyn.
Um, so he later transferred andI remember saying to him how
beautiful, what he just did was,I was like, thank you so much.
(35:34):
I was like, I appreciate thatyou saw the difference in the
room.
And my response was, no.
I was like, I learned a longtime ago.
I can't hide.
So I'm very much okay, but Iappreciate that you understand
that are, that there are peoplethat look like me that are not
comfortable when we are only oneor two in the room.
(35:56):
and it's that empathy piece.
I think it's the piece of, ofjust being more empathetic to
everyone's experience in thisworld.
Do you know what I mean?
Because everyone unfortunatelyhas had both good and bad
experiences and sometimes whenthe bad experiences overweigh
the good ones, it becomes thosepeople.
And I'm, I've been in manyconversations when they're like,
(36:16):
oh, Sonika.
And I'm like,'cause it's notthose people, it's that person
that is someone's son, father,daughter.
Like that one person had nointegrity, that one person was
wrong.
But we can't just like, again, Idon't want anyone to say black
women are like X because youcame across Sonika.
Because I am not arepresentation of every single
(36:39):
black woman in the world.
What I'm is a representation ofSonika.
So that to me is how ourcommunities are Will.
Over time become one, right.
Leaning in and being moreempathetic and understanding
that if we acknowledgeeveryone's experience, both good
(37:00):
and bad, and be more empatheticto their reservations, that's
how we draw closer and closertogether.
Because I think often peoplewanna dismiss the sides that are
uncomfortable, to be quitehonest, right?
Like it's, it's too hard to talkabout.
It's too hard to be a part of.
And it's like, can we just not,can we not talk about it?
(37:21):
And, which is so interestingbecause in a way, the Caribbean
culture has taken that on andmade it disowned because in the
Caribbean culture, if someincident or there was a
conversation or somethinghappened with family or friends
that left some, you know,unsettled feelings, instead of
sitting down and addressingthose feelings head on, they'll
(37:43):
just ignore it.
They'll won't talk for two,like, you know, two weeks, a
week or two.
They'll ignore it and then likearound a holiday or you know, a
month later they're like, Hey,haven't seen you.
How are you?
And just, you know, kind of ro Icall it the robot through.
Are you doing fine?
Are you doing good?
Are we good?
Yeah.
Can we just move forward,forward and just let, we don't
(38:04):
need to talk about that.
And that to me is sodetrimental.
Like it's so toxic in its itsformat and I don't allow people
to do it.
I'm like, absolutely not.
We are gonna have a conversationof what happened, how you felt,
and how you made me feel.
We're gonna show each otherempathy throughout the
situation, and then we can moveforward.
I just don't believe in walkingaround with rugs that have a
(38:27):
bunch of stuff stuffed under it.
You know what I.
(39:20):
Yep, exactly.
Box checked.
(39:55):
Nice.
(40:53):
Yeah.
Wow.
Yeah.
(41:21):
Yeah.
(41:49):
Yes, that part.
(43:08):
Yes.
Yeah, yeah.
Yes, yes, yes.
(43:38):
And just, and say hi, my name isright.
Because like you said, that tome that passive, it's, you said
so much there and I wanted tolike, that's one of the main
reasons I created this podcast,right, is one to loudly say.
(44:02):
How we have defined things canbe different for me as an
individual in various stages ofmy life.
And then how is that divinedefinition aligned with who I
am?
What happened to agreeing todisagree?
I feel like at one point we wereall so open to agreeing to
(44:23):
disagree with someone's thoughtor perspective on a topic.
And it was separate, right?
It was separate from the humanbeing.
It was like, oh, I think it'srainy today.
And you're like, oh, it's notraining.
It's just drizzling, sonika.
And that we agreed to disagree.
It wasn't sneaker.
You're an idiot.
I just like, you know what Imean?
Now my character and my moralityand everyone is into question
(44:44):
because we disagree on a topic,A topic that, by the way, we
both may feel very differentabout.
In a day or two because based oninformation like you, yourself,
your definitions and yourperspectives on things change
over the course of your life.
Why tear other people down?
Because that perspective isdifferent.
(45:05):
It's one of the main reasons Icreated this podcast because of
the level of di di diversity,um, division that I saw in the
space.
It was just let's, let's beangry at one another because we
don't agree the same thing.
Right?
Let's label each other.
And while there's so muchcomfort in saying like, oh,
I've, I have a friend who lookedlike this.
(45:25):
I work with a person who lookedlike you, boom, checked off.
I know what kind of person youare.
We have to acknowledge that thatis very passive behavior and we
would hate if anyone would dothat to us.
'cause, and that, and I alwaysremind someone of that.
Like you can look like theJewish guy I work with.
That doesn't mean Andrew.
Andrew and David is the sameperson.
(45:46):
Like that does, and I don't.
And you understand what, and Ipersonally don't even think of
Andrew and David as the person,same person.
And that's what makes me thinkmy upbringing was, I think
sometimes that I'm weird.
'cause my, I was like, but therewas a bunch of kids in that
class because in elementaryschool we learned how to dle, we
learned about Yom Kippur, we didChinese New Year.
(46:08):
Like I know about all the Muslimholidays.
Like this was every single monthat school and elementary school.
PS 91 in Brooklyn.
Like throughout my entire myacademic career as a child here
in New York City, us being,coming from different cultures,
different religions, lookingdifferent was something that we
(46:30):
celebrated.
I remember every month we wouldhave you, it's called, it was
called like You Plus Me.
So we would have to get on stagein the middle, on the auditorium
and tell about our culture andthen how it can help your
culture.
And then like the whole class,so like the class stood up on
the, on the side, and I wouldhave to go and I'd go, Sonika,
(46:52):
I'm Jamaican and I'm black andmixed with Cuban, my culture can
do.
And then you walk off and thenthe next person was like, I'm
Chinese, we can do da da.
And then like, and then you walkoff and then like, and then
every, but we did it class byclass and then everyone had to
do a project about what youlearn from each other.
Like, it was just so much funand curiosity and collaboration.
(47:17):
So, you know, kind of growingup, going to college and
entering a corporate world andseeing how other people thought
was still to this day, veryweird to me.
I'm not gonna lie to you.
I'm not gonna lie to you.
It's very, I wouldn't sayuncomfortable.
It makes me weak for them if I'mhonest.
I'm so em and like people that Icome across that's like hard
(47:38):
grained in their ways and whatthey think immigrants are and
all of these things, I honestlyweep for you.
Like, to me, I'm so empathetic.
I'm, I don't get mad'cause Ireally feel like, because people
only know what they know andunless an individual opens up to
want to know more, they'll onlyknow what they know.
Right.
So it's like, it's like tryingto convince a wall it needs
(48:01):
water.
Unless it opens up it can't getit.
So.
How I am always, I always justweep for them.
'cause I'm just like, you don'tknow how great life could be if
you, if you were amongsteveryone.
You don't know how beautifullife is unless you have people
of different cultures like, haveyou attended a Muslim wedding?
(48:23):
It's freaking amazing.
Have you attended an Africanwedding?
OMG?
Like, you know what, like, it'sjust so I'm like, have you had
the Yum Kaur cookies?
They are good.
Like these are, these are thingsthat I just feel like it's your
choice.
It is a choice and we have tostop living life so passively
and expecting to live lifefully.
(48:45):
It's not how it works.
There are people that live anddie every single day and never
lived a day in their life.
So if you were, if you're gonnabe passive and say like, I saw
this, saw this black woman,she's like this, like this black
woman.
I know I don't wanna engage.
You just missed an opportunityto find a friend that can help
you.
Like, you know what I mean?
Same thing.
Like if we just see people fortheir race and their religion,
(49:07):
there's so much missedopportunity for happiness
outside of learning.
There's so much happiness andcollaboration.
And to me, I'm, I'm alwayschasing happiness and safety.
So I'm just, I wait for them, ifI'm honest.
So that's why to me, mycommunity is so mixed because I
have such a good time.
(49:29):
I genuinely and sincerely, likeI have two daughters we like,
and my husband, we, our wholevillage is so mixed.
'cause we have such a good timelearning from each other.
Like, you know what I mean?
Like, my friend who's Korean andshe's a pastry chef.
And I love me some pastries.
She doesn't bake for me anymorebecause I love too many
pastries.
(49:49):
But we talk so much about Koreanculture and like there are so
many similarities in cultures.
Once you get to know people,like, you know, the, the
overbearing parent that thinksyou should be married or a
adopted, like there are so many,there are so many similarities
that we can laugh on and love oneach other and give each other
(50:11):
that radical sense of supportfor that are missed
opportunities because we wannalive life passively based on
generalization.
(51:01):
Oh, the.
(52:15):
Yep.
(52:59):
It is not, it's not true.
And realize that it's not real.
Like, and that's the part thatalways gets me.
I'm just like, again, realizethat what generalization,
whatever box you created thatmakes that comfort to you,
right, that makes your hatejustified, understand that it's
not real.
Like it's not based on actualfacts, it is based on the
(53:20):
opinions and the stories thatyou created to comfort yourself.
And that's where, to me, I'malways, again, I feel bad for
them.
I'm, that's really honestly andtruthfully where I sit, because
hatred comes from a place offear.
Somewhere deep down or probablyright in front of your face.
You are afraid of something.
You are afraid that this personmight be smarter than you.
This person might get ahead thanyou, like you are afraid.
(53:42):
That's all hatred is fearamplified.
And unfortunately, it takes alot of self courage and self
accountability to move pastfear.
That's why it's easy to be like,yeah, to the immigrants taking
all the jobs or whatever crazyrhetoric is this week.
It's like, you know, you two cango out and get a job, like no
(54:05):
one's stopping you.
Like there is, there are nobarriers in your way to get what
you want.
And if there are, call out thebarriers.
How is it the people, I'm surethere's not someone like kicking
you out the door saying, no, youcan't get this job.
I'm here first.
That's not how that works.
But unfortunately, I think it'sjust, it's the comforting of the
(54:26):
fair, right?
You create these stories andthere are messages and things
out there that comfort youbecause ultimately in order for
you to move past hate, you haveto be willing to tap into
intelligence, right?
Like you actually, you have to.
There's no like, and there's noway you can be filled with hate
and say like, I'm also supersmart, really.
(54:50):
intelligence is aligned with agreat deal of curiosity.
Like you were talking about, um,like with Trump and Trump
voters, there is, I think thebook is called Master of
Communication.
If not, I'm gonna put it in the,the notes of this.
But the book was amazing, right?
It it's basically about howpeople are able to communicate
with one another regardless ofwhat, what side of the argument
(55:13):
that they're on.
I read it right after I readlike the negotiation books.
I like these books.
I'm a happy little nerd, Andrewsuppose of myself, right?
But ultimately what they did wascreate, it wasn't like a test
group.
They invited all of thesepolitical, um, talking heads,
right?
Just commentators, um, evenlegislators to a room that had
(55:38):
opposing opinions about therights to bear arms.
Right.
They brought'em all to the room.
No one knew who was coming tothe meeting.
So when everyone got to themeeting, and I'm paraphrasing
the story to get to it, but wheneveryone got to the room, they
all came together and realizedwho each other was, right?
So they made the assumption thatthey were gonna talk about the
(55:59):
right to bear arms, and then theperson running the room asks a
very personal question aboutlike, something like wouldn't
last you lost someone you loved.
And everyone started sharingstories of like someone in their
family that they lost fordifferent reasons, sicknesses or
whatever, and they just keptasking them personal questions
(56:23):
about similar experiences.
When's the last time someone youloved disappointed you?
Like these were the questionsthat they were asking in the
room, right?
So as they continue to havethese conversations and, and
pose the question to the groupand they keep talking and
they're sharing these veryvulnerable moments about
themselves, the next day theysaid, so what about the right to
(56:46):
bear arms?
The conversation wassignificantly different because
they spent the day beforelearning about who each other
was, not what their stance onthe topic was, but so when I say
it was, it's a beautiful book.
I'm definitely gonna put it inthe notes, but it just also
shows that when you take.
(57:08):
The topic off the table,whatever it is, we can disagree.
And that's why I always say thatwe make politics and all these
things so much bigger than whileit impacts a lot of people.
So I'm not gonna negate that.
It's not a big topic, but weneed to separate the topic from
the people.
And because, and that's the partthat's crazy.
(57:40):
I feel like it has happened nowover the last decade.
I don't, I just don't feel likeit's always been this way.
Maybe I was just naive or maybeI'm just too young.
I just never, I never felt itwas this way, especially in New
York and New York politics, likethere were people that were
actively disagreeing on issuesand found a middle ground.
(59:12):
Yes.
(59:40):
that part, that part.
(01:00:06):
But I feel like honestly it's,it's been amplified a lot due to
loneliness, if I'm honest.
I feel like it has beenamplified a lot.
I think the, the residue ofCOVID still lives very heavily
in today's culture.
Right.
And what people don'tunderstand, unfortunately, like
people are rewarded for negativebehavior online.
(01:00:28):
That's just the honest, that'sthe, that's the facts of the
matter.
Right?
And sometimes they just wantengagement.
Yes.
And unfortunately, when peopleare festered and they're filled
with fear and they're lonely,there is not a large demand for
(01:00:51):
people to be like, oh, you'revalued, you, you're worthy.
Like, those conversations aren'tas loud as the, I'm gonna go on
a blog and say something meanin, in an effort to get someone
to respond back to me.
And like, you know what?
Like,'cause that's what ends uphappening.
It's rewarded behavior it'sinteresting to see a fact run
against an opinion.
Right in a, on a, you know, aone man, a one-on-one man race,
(01:01:13):
just like how we used to do askids, right on the street, you
take one corner and who, whogets to the next corner first?
A fact can never outrun a lie.
It, it's just, it can't, becauseunfortunately, especially
online, the lie has so many morecheers.
There are so many more people onthe sideline, like.
(01:01:36):
It's more exciting.
What else?
What did you say?
What did they do?
Like, you know, it's just,unfortunately, it's just so, it,
it, it commands more attentionand ultimately that's what they
want.
They want attention becausethey're fearful.
And that's where I just lean inwith empathy.
I'm just like, what is thisreally about?
You have to be super intentionalabout identifying what's the
(01:02:01):
goal of this interaction?
Like, you know, what do I wantfrom this?
Because often when you, there'sbeen so many situations, and
this kind of one of the reasons,again, I decided to create the
podcast where people are come upto me or I'll be in the
situation and I'll see it forwhat it is, and I'm like, well,
what are you really angry about?
Like, I know that this is, let'sjust say the proposal or the
(01:02:23):
contract we're talking about,but all that aside, what is
really bothering you?
How can I help this be better?
Not just on paper, but inoverall, and that's.
When you get to the realconversation by showing each
other empathy and being presentand showing that I genuinely and
sincerely care about humanbeings.
(01:02:44):
And I don't want anyone to bein, not only in my space, but in
my community, feeling like theyare worth nothing.
Like no one cares about you thatbecause you look a certain way
or because you speak a certainway, right?
Or you're, you have a differentaccent.
Or because you don't speakproper English, that you are of
any less value than anybody elsein this community.
(01:03:05):
'cause that is not the truth.
It isn't just the facts of thematter.
And I always say it's not aboutwhat I feel.
I'm a person who operates infacts and numbers.
It's not the truth.
You have value because you areas substantial as I am.
Substantial factually, right?
So how like it's just leaning inand showing each other that
(01:03:25):
level of empathy.
And that level of being presentand slowing down and not living
life passively is what it's allabout.
Andrew, thank you so much.
This has been such a wonderfulconversation.
It has fed me tremendously and Ihope you really enjoyed and I
hope our audience enjoyed,right?
Because how we come to definethese things that truly drive
(01:03:49):
our lives and who we are, suchas empathy is not an easy thing,
but it's worth the journey.
Awesome.
Thank you so much.
(01:04:09):
And this is how do you divineempathy.
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