August 13, 2025 ā¢ 45 mins
Welcome to this episode of How Do You Divine, where we explore the concept of identity with Jo Wong. Dive into a candid and insightful discussion as Jo shares her personal experiences of growing up across different cultures, her journey from a corporate executive to a self-aware individual, and the challenges and triumphs of embracing her true self. From dealing with cultural identities to professional success, Joe discusses the importance of authenticity, deprogramming societal expectations, and finding inner wellness. This enriching conversation touches on motherhood, career paths, and the continuous evolution of one's identity.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker (00:00):
Welcome back to this episode of How Do You Divine,
(00:04):
and today we are gonna speak toJoe Wang on how we have come to
define identity.
Joe, how are you?
I'm good.
How are you?
How is New York?
Uh, New York is in full summerspring mode because one day it's
summer.
The next day it's spring.
But New York summer, I feel likeis a movement.
(00:25):
It's a vibe.
You know what I mean?
Mm-hmm.
Like be New York in thesummertime, there's no better
rooftop.
I'll, I'll put money on that.
Okay.
There's no better rooftop than arooftop in New York City, but
then there are days that theheat is offensive.
We, in one of those days, we'rein one of those days.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
I hear.
I hear it.
I hear.
Speaker (00:43):
So, Joe, when we spoke about being on the podcast,
something that I think justresonated in our conversations
was around exploring identity,as black women in corporate as
well as founders andentrepreneurs and moms.
Right?
Mm-hmm.
How we've come to identifyourselves, range in different
seasons of our lives.
(01:04):
And I wanted to take you back tothe first day Joe said, who is
Joe?
Who is Joe Wang?
Speaker 2 (01:12):
You say Wang.
It's Wong like Only, I'll onlylet you call me Wang Joe.
Who is Joe Wong?
You know, it's interesting.
I feel like, um.
When you meet somebody for thefirst time and you're pulling
back all the layers, or you'rebeginning the introduction of
yourself, there's always thisinternal battle of, what am I
going to share?
Like if it is, where are youfrom?
(01:36):
Yeah.
That simple question of whereare you from?
I find so difficult because youknow, as I shared with you, I am
from Trinidad.
But as you can hear from myaccent, I left when I was young,
but that is my identity.
I'm Trinidadian.
We lived in Canada.
I grew up in Chicago.
I went to school in Florida, Ilived in Miami.
(01:57):
So all those places are a partof my identity, like.
If I see something about theChicago Bulls, that's nostalgic
for me.
If there's something about citygirls, I'm like, I'm a Miami
girl.
You know what I mean?
So there's so many layers.
And now as you know, I live inLondon.
Yes.
So I meet people all the timeand they're just like, who are
you?
Where are you from?
And I don't even know how toanswer to say, you know, it is,
(02:21):
but you tend to just go theeasiest answer because it just,
it's how much time do you have?
Because I'm not.
I'm not a one sentence, if thatmakes sense.
My identity is multiplesentences.
It's almost as if I have a bioof I am Caribbean American,
(02:43):
expat living in London.
A mother, yes, a business owner,one's corporate.
But yeah, a lot of my identityis just wrapped up in so many
things.
Speaker (02:55):
That's so I love how you took us through the journey
of all the places, right?
That has made you who you are.
But it also makes me feel likebeing a black woman in these
different spaces also shape notjust like our physical identity,
but who we are internally.
Right.
So give, take me back to YoungJoe.
Was Young Joe, just theTrinidadian girl in Canada?
(03:16):
Like how, how, how has thatevolved young
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Joe?
You know, I would say.
Young, so I went throughevolutions of my name.
So my, my full name is Jo.
Mm-hmm.
And nobody calls me Jos, butlike my family.
So I would say Young Jos was inChicago, and I always felt like
two people outside of home andinside of home.
(03:41):
And I know somebody at thediaspora understands exactly
what I mean.
Mm-hmm.
So in Chicago, there's not amassive Caribbean, west Indian
population.
So at school I was, I guess,from the outside African
American, black.
And I immersed myself in theculture and you know, face
value, that's what it was.
But then I would go home to thisother world and my mom would be
(04:03):
in the house with the wrap skirton playing Soca, eating, you
know, pillow and stew chickenand you know, I just felt like I
was always managing two worlds.
Yes.
And when I would bring peopleinto my world or somebody called
the house.
And asked for me and heard myfather's accent.
They're like, what?
You know, it was just, it wasjust really interesting to
(04:27):
facilitate both spaces andlearning that from a young age.
And it doesn't help.
I have an Asian last name, sofirst day of school it would be,
they'd say Jos won.
She, and I'd raise my hand andwe like, no, no.
Um, we said Joses won.
She, and I'd have to sit thereand be like, that's my name.
And that was just out the box.
(04:48):
You know, so I never felt likemy identity matched anything I
had seen before as a child.
So I felt like I was alwaysreinventing myself.
Speaker (04:59):
Ooh, for that reason.
I love that.
And I think so many of us canrelate to the managing of two
worlds, right?
I say it's the best of bothworlds being Jamaican, I had the
same, you know, kind ofexperience where, you know,
especially when, as you say,with your accent, and there's
the accent, there's the patois.
But navigating those spaces,especially with a unique name.
(05:20):
How was that for you in school?
Like who is Josette?
Like, you know, I know you hadso many conversations as a
child.
How did you navigate that space,like in middle school, high
school?
Speaker 2 (05:33):
You know, I actually think it gave me, I was very
extroverted.
I was very friendly and I thinkbecause I felt different.
I gravitated to people that feltdifferent.
And I was, my friends used tojoke with me.
'cause you know, when you werewalking in school, in the
hallway, I would say hi toeveryone.
I knew everyone.
(05:53):
I, I don't wanna say I waspopular, I was social.
Speaker (05:56):
Same.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
There was like the weird kid that used to duct tape
everything.
I was friends with him.
I found him fascinating.
I was like, what's up?
You know, we good.
And I think because I felt.
Out of water.
Speaker (06:09):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
I recognized that in other people, people.
So there was always this, so Iwas into indie rock music, but
also hip hop.
I was in dance, I was intotheater.
I, I did multiple things and Iwas always in multiple groups of
friends because of that.
Speaker (06:30):
I love, but I love how you gave yourself permission to
be Joe.
At an early age.
Right, because that is, that isan outsider's perspective,
right?
I think when we are in thesespaces like school and things
like that, you wanna acclimate,right?
I always say as much as we hearstandout, especially in
Caribbean community, right?
(06:51):
You, you, if you don't stand forsomething, you fall for
everything.
So your parents tell you to bewho you are and all of these
things, but when you get intothe school setting, you really
just wanna acclimate.
You just want, yeah.
To blend in.
But I love how you.
You identified early on that I'man outsider, so I want to see,
you know, I'm finding theoutsiderness in everyone else
(07:11):
that was so and so show.
Tell me about how that helpedbuild this bold human that we
come to know.
'cause I think that was such abold move, even as a child,
right?
Yep.
I have a unique name.
I'm Trinidadian.
Here I am.
What's up?
Like, you know what I mean?
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
I was telling somebody the story the other
day, so in school we had, Idon't know if you guys did this,
I tell people in England andthey're like, what is that?
We had something called a reallife project and we had to get a
real job, not get a job, butlike a fake, you know, a real
job.
Um, pay, rent, balance, ourcheckbook and mind you we're in
Chicago and everybody had normaljobs and stuff in Chicago, and I
(07:54):
was a flight attendant thatlived in Miami.
Never been to Miami before, butin my head, I'm not staying
here.
I'm traveling the world.
So I was a flight attendant.
I lived in Coral Gables, I had asports car, whatever, whatever.
And the irony of it is Imanifested my life in a weird
way.
I was just gonna say thatbecause I ended up having a
(08:15):
travel position in Miami.
I did not live far from CoralGables.
I did have a two.
Like a, a sports car.
And it's not till I was in mylate twenties, early thirties.
I was like, wait a minute.
I kind of manifested this life.
Oh, I've never been to Miamibefore.
I just, in my head, I wanna livesomewhere.
It was hot.
I wanted to travel, but I alwayshad this like, bigger vision.
(08:35):
And you know what?
I could, I talking to you, Ithink I could attest it to, and
you could can maybe speak tothis.
My mother had me travel fromyoung.
And I was exposed to the world.
Yeah.
So I had seen more than Chicago.
You know, I had went back toTrinidad almost every summer.
Mm-hmm.
And spent time with family andwas exposed to different
cultures and backgrounds.
(08:56):
I'd be in Brooklyn for thesummer.
I'd be in Orlando, I'd be, Ithink that this opened myself up
that there's a world bigger thanhere.
Speaker (09:03):
Yes.
And that you can dream, right?
And I think, right.
I think in the Caribbeanculture, we don't necessarily
identify it as dreaming.
It's like ambition.
And you know, it's usuallytargeted towards like a career
aspiration, right?
Be a nurse, be a doctor, be alawyer.
And you don't realize when youopen up yourself to the world,
your identity starts to changeas well, because it doesn't just
(09:27):
become who I am, it's what Iwanna be.
No,
Speaker 2 (09:30):
I think so.
And I think.
Looking at my family dynamicsand looking at my, my parents,
and we had had so many people inproximity of all different
backgrounds and type of jobs andin, you know, occupations.
So you're just exposed to more,you, you realize more.
And I, I definitely think itshaped me differently.
(09:52):
In terms of what I felt as aconcept I could be in the
future,
Speaker (09:57):
and I love that in middle school you're like, I'm
going to be a flight attendant.
I'm gonna live in Miami.
I'm gonna have a sports car.
Because to me that level ofdetail shows you that you've
always aspired to have a goodday-to-day life.
I think sometimes when peopleare like, like, I love this real
world project.
I've never heard about itbefore, but now I'm like,
everyone should implement thisin their, in the curriculum.
(10:19):
Every child should have a realworld project because it makes
you aspire to what yourday-to-day life is versus like
this ultimate goal, right?
Because I think when we thinkabout what we wanna be and who
we wanna be in life, it's like,I wanna be wealthy, I wanna be
rich.
Like, you know, it's always likethis one singular target.
It's not actually.
What my days are and who I wannabe.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Well, I'll say my mom.
I, the thing things I willdefinitely take with her, with
my little one is she showed menice things.
She showed me luxury.
She showed me I deserve it morethan anyone.
And she also talked to me aboutwhat it takes to earn it.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
You
Speaker 2 (10:57):
know, and I remember if I wanted something, I, I
really wanted this boombox.
And she was like, all right,save half of it.
And I'll put in the other halfand you'll get this.
And so I understood what it wasto work towards something.
So I wanted a car.
I babysat all summer, you know,weeks and weeks and weeks to
save up a down payment.
(11:18):
And so there was definitelythis, this aspect of you do
deserve.
In terms of like a growthabundance mindset?
Yes.
It was always instilled in meand my partner now grew up very
different.
You know, he grew up English,working class, nice things.
You don't get nice things that'snot for you.
And classism is something I'velearned a lot more evident here.
(11:41):
So when I see him interact withcertain things, I realized he
wasn't raised with an abundancemindset.
Um.
I think instilling that in me soyoung, it was like, what can I
not do?
What can I not have?
That
Speaker 3 (11:54):
part, you know,
Speaker 2 (11:55):
that part.
But I think it's the work ethicand the sacrifice it takes for
it is what I don't necessarilythink people connect with all
the time.
So it wasn't just, you deservenice things and there's a sense
of entitlement.
It was, you deserve nice things,but nice things take sacrifices.
Speaker (12:12):
And hard work.
You're
Speaker 2 (12:13):
gonna need to work hard.
You're gonna need to not dothings.
You know, there were summers Ididn't hang out with friends
'cause I was working.
Speaker (12:19):
Oh girl.
Talk to me about it.
I've been, I had a job since Iwas 15.
So same, same.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
So talk to me about it.
But she gave me the gift ofearning something.
Speaker (12:31):
Yeah.
You know,
Speaker 2 (12:32):
when I drove that car around, it was like.
It like, it's my car, you know,I, I, I'm sweat, blood and tears
went into this, you know, so I,I, I definitely thank her for
that.
Like I love that and I will dothe same for sure.
The river.
Speaker (12:45):
I, no, I love that.
And I wanna talk about how thatmindset of abundance, like
shaped your identity when youentered corporate.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
I don't think it did.
I think it shut down.
I think in corporate I was, Ialways had this weird mindset
that like, I snuck in the backdoor.
They're gonna figure out anymoment I'm not supposed to be
here.
Really?
Yeah.
Really.
I really felt like they'regonna, the gig is up.
(13:18):
They're gonna figure out.
She has no idea what she'sdoing.
I think
Speaker (13:22):
that's so
Speaker 2 (13:23):
interesting.
Thank you.
Speaker (13:24):
Thinking of all your, thank you so much for
Speaker 2 (13:26):
your con No, thank you so much for your
contribution.
But what you know, day left, um.
But yeah, I felt like that for areally, really long time because
I, just to give kind of mystory, I started off on the
sales floor, Mac makeup, artistbeating faces, but I just, I was
always commercial.
I always looked at sales.
(13:47):
I always knew what my goal was.
I always walked in on a Saturdaywith already my sales goal in
for the week, if not month.
Nice.
And I'd be there chilling whileeveryone else is scrambling to
make their target.
And it was just always naturalfor me, and it didn't feel like
work.
And I think'cause of that, whenI moved into corporate and
(14:07):
stepped into that space, Ididn't take the traditional
route.
Mm.
I wasn't recruited from a senseof finishing my MBA and going
into corporate.
I was, I was staff, I was on thesales floor, and then.
Graduated, I was able to stepin.
Yeah.
And I think'cause of that, I waslike, oh, they're gonna figure
out, I'm actually a makeupartist that just can calculate
(14:29):
sales.
That is good
Speaker (14:31):
at the operations and organizations of sales
structure.
As black women, we oftenquestion our route to success.
Right.
Our validity.
Although we have like the marks,but really the journey to prove
it.
That's why I don't think, Iwouldn't say it's like an
imposter syndrome.
I just think sometimes we'resold that this is what corporate
(14:52):
executives should have.
You should go to Stanford, youshould go to Harvard, you should
have an MBA.
You should have wrote a review.
Like, you know what I mean?
Like this is the structure thatthe identity of an executive
should have.
A
Speaker 2 (15:07):
hundred percent.
Like I was meticulous to thepoint of how I wore my hair or
how I dressed, or, I mean, Istill was getting it wrong.
I don't know what kind ofoutfits I was wearing when I
first started.
I was wearing body con dressesthinking I'm doing something, a
mess, a mess.
But I really, I just, I justwanted to flip the part.
Yeah.
I wanted to be taken seriously.
(15:28):
I wanted to fit the part.
I wanted everyone to believe Iknew what I was doing, and the
confidence slowly came.
As what I was doing was working.
Speaker (15:39):
Yeah.
And
Speaker 2 (15:39):
it was sticking and I was seeing the impact and I was
seeing, I'm very results driven.
So seeing that as well.
But I think the mistake I madewas that then became my
identity.
Ooh.
Um, instead of me being JoeLong, I was the corporate girl
that travels for work with Matt,and I would lead with that.
(16:04):
Because I felt it gave mecredibility, it gave me value,
it gave me worth.
So looking back, I was so muchmore than that.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
Yeah.
But
Speaker 2 (16:12):
that, because it was so much of my identity, I feel
like it steered my relationshipsgood and bad.
Yeah.
Uh, it, I sacrificed a lot ofthings wanting to keep proving
myself.
And it became almost addictiveto be that corporate girly and
whatnot.
(16:32):
And it wasn't until COVID, Itook a step back and I said, but
what does this even mean?
Speaker (16:43):
Who am I even outside?
Right.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Right.
And I think it was COVID whereit was really a look in the
mirror of who?
Who are you?
Yeah.
As I like.
Fell apart, nailed lashes, hair,
Speaker (16:58):
all, all of the maintenance appointments were no
longer being made.
No, listen, listen, you rough.
It's such
Speaker 2 (17:05):
literally you're rough.
But I had to like face myself.
Yes.
And just have that really deepconversation of who are you?
Speaker (17:16):
And not just, who are you?
What do you wanna be?
I think COVID did that for manypeople right across the world
where the things that we haveused to armor ourselves is who
we are and what we are in thisworld.
Were no longer available.
Mm-hmm.
And then you had to look atyourself square in the face and
say, but what, who am I outsideof these things?
(17:38):
Hmm.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
No, I agree.
I agree.
And I think my identity in termsof.
Am I supposed to be a wife?
Am I supposed to be a mother?
Should I stay in London?
Because I moved, I, I, all I hadwas me and I picked up, packed
up everything and moved here fora career.
Speaker (17:59):
Yeah.
And
Speaker 2 (17:59):
sacrificed being away from friends and family, you
know, relationships, whatever.
So when I met my now partner.
And I was, I guess you couldsay, introducing myself for the
first time.
There was a lot of selfdiscovery.
'cause he was actually one ofthe first people I had been with
where I was so raw andauthentic.
(18:21):
So like no lashes, no nails, nowig, just rough.
And I, and I kind of had thisjust real, yeah, very real.
And I kind of had this mentalityof like, you could take it or
leave it.
This is just what it is.
And we were very aligned invalues.
(18:41):
So it was one of the firstrelationships I just used to
speak so openly about how I feltabout things or how I wanted to
live my life or things I wantedfor myself.
And, um.
Yeah, I think that's when Istarted really learning who I
was.
Speaker (18:59):
Yes.
This is a good conversationbecause we don't realize
sometimes how we become thethings.
The who we are is the career,the, the titles.
But we lose ourselves in justtrying to maintain the titles.
The mom, the sister, the friend,the, you know what I mean?
Actually this was like a greatjourney for you because you had,
(19:22):
first, you've already separatedyourself from an, from an
environment standpoint.
Right?
You got, you moved to London inpursuit of this career.
So now I am Joe, I'm thisexecutive.
Killing it in corporate and nowCOVID happens.
Hmm.
So there is no more work.
There is no more title.
Yeah.
And who?
Who is Joe.
And
Speaker 2 (19:42):
who is Joe.
And then when I went to, when Ileft Estee Lauder and I went to
Farfetched, I made a consciousdecision to be Joe Wong is me.
Right?
Because I used to.
I used to reward a lot of mysuccess to the company I worked
for, not the work I did.
(20:04):
Mm.
So when I stepped away fromLauder, I was like, no, no, no,
no.
I did all that because of me.
Once when another companyapproached me, I was like, oh,
wait.
Um, I'm actually a big deal.
I'm actually, I, I can do somethings.
When they appreciated my skillsand my expertise and my work, I
then realized I'm bigger than atitle.
I'm bigger than a role.
(20:26):
And that's when I reallyseparated the two.
Yes, I was who I was at work andI was very dedicated to what I
did at work, but I also had myown personal brand and that's
when I really started investingin social media and doing
content and just speaking likeabout myself.
Speaker (20:46):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
In a way that, not worried about my perception or
how people would view it.
Because I think sometimes withsocial media, you want the
audience to love you from analgorithm or whatever the case
is.
But what I found on social mediais I found my tribe.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
Yeah.
You know, I
Speaker 2 (21:04):
found my spiritual witchy, vegan, vegetarian,
expat.
Like I found my people.
Yeah.
And I was like, oh, we're outhere.
And the more I was just likereally honest and authentic
about who I was, an identity.
In these platforms, the more Ifound my people.
(21:24):
I love that.
In that
Speaker (21:26):
I love that.
And you've taught me that.
You've told me time and timeagain, sneak, I wanna see more
of you online.
And I'm working on it.
I'm working on it.
I'm definitely gonna do that.
But I think you pointed outsomething that is so unique and
powerful that I wanted to justdouble click on.
Look, my corporate speak, doubleclick, like circle back.
Right?
(21:46):
Circling back.
About the, that unique momentwhere you start to separate your
role in your company with yourskills.
Mm-hmm.
I think it's black women oftenwe are just like, you know, we
are achieving a quota, we'rebuilding the projects, we are
making sure things are getting.
Done for the company, and somuch of our effort, we equate to
(22:09):
an entity and a role, but wedon't.
Mm-hmm.
Sometimes look in the mirror andsay, Ika, look at what you've
learned.
Look at what you'veaccomplished.
Right?
Mm-hmm.
And then focus on those skillsand highlight those skills.
Mm-hmm.
Because those skills is whatempowers you as a professional,
but then it also reassures youas a human being that you're
(22:30):
growing and you're becoming whoyou wanna be.
No, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
I think when I decided to do my MBA, it was
also to validate myself becauseI know, I know the work.
Speaker (22:46):
Yeah,
Speaker 2 (22:47):
right.
But it was, it was aconfirmation for me to say all
this experience.
It wasn't by mistake.
Yeah.
The success.
The success I had, and that'swhat the MBA confirmed for me.
I, I understood the content.
I'll have more context now tospeak to things in a, a
(23:08):
different level of confidence,and I'm happy I did it the way I
did it.
I'm happy I didn't stop workingand go and do it to validate
myself.
I did it after I found somegreat success, but yeah, I
agree.
I think sometimes, yeah, we, wedon't.
I see this with the founders Iwork with, we don't value
(23:31):
ourselves enough in terms ofwhat we charge.
Yeah.
Our prices, our value in termsof access to us.
Yeah.
The work we contribute and giveto companies, we will put
ourselves through burnout toprove ourselves.
Speaker (23:50):
We will.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
And that that in itself is just, is one of the
barriers we face.
Speaker (23:55):
All the time.
Right, and I think it's, I thinka part of that is knowing your
identity separate from all thethings.
Right.
Separate from being the mom,being the wife, being the
partner, being the executive,being the corporate girly.
Mm-hmm.
A large portion of that ismaking space to be, well, and I
talk about this all the time,that if we are not pursuing
(24:18):
wellness for Sonika, like ifSonika is not saying, what does
Sonika need today?
Do I need a power of silence?
Do I need tea?
Do I need to walk?
Do I need to get out my ownhead?
We are easily so critical of.
Like who we are.
Like, oh, you know, you have anattitude.
Oh, you know, you short, like,you know what I mean?
We're so critical of ourselvessometimes that we don't even
(24:39):
make space for wellness.
Mm-hmm.
To become who we are.
Right.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
And I think in addition to that, we don't show
up in those spaces as ourselves.
Mm.
Similar to when I startedworking in corporate.
I came in as this character.
Of myself or this, yes.
You know, this, this person thatI'm not, yeah.
But I felt the same in marriagerelationship.
(25:07):
I felt the same becoming amother, you know, moms don't do
that, or this and this.
And I've just made a commitmentthat I'm gonna show up in all
these roles, still my, myidentity.
Yeah.
In my way.
Yeah.
You know, um, not pushing thatdown.
I am a fun mom.
I love to dance.
I love to have a good time withmy daughter, that that's who we
(25:30):
are.
Yeah.
You know?
And if I didn't show up likethat, I would be becoming
something else.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
Yeah.
So I think
Speaker 2 (25:36):
it's just like protecting your identity in
these different roles as well,and not suppressing it.
Speaker (25:42):
How did you get comfortable doing that?
Right?
I think it's such a journey.
Do you think COVID was yourjourney in becoming more
comfortable in the identity ofJoe and then taking the layers?
'cause I always see it as thenucleus, right?
You just, the identity of me andthen it's the mom, then it's,
it's all the things outside ofthat.
How did you get comfortablethere?
Speaker 2 (26:04):
I don't even know if I still am.
Sometimes though I feel likeit's been a journey and I'm
still on the journey.
Yes, because you still have likethe saboteur moments or voices.
Speaker (26:15):
Yes.
And you'll always have momentsand it's okay, but I know, but I
think it's accepting that.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
Yeah.
And just knowing, just functionbetter when I'm like that.
It's almost just like it's It'sa necessity.
Speaker (26:28):
Yeah.
To get
Speaker 2 (26:28):
by.
Speaker (26:29):
Yeah, like my
Speaker 2 (26:30):
girlfriend messaged me today and she's like, can we
go out dancing this weekend?
I was like, please, can we, Ineed to hear some music.
Like, I need to not suppressthat part of me because I'm a
mom now and this and this andyou know, you'll be 40.
I just, I still have to likefeed that.
I still have to pour into myselfin that way
Speaker (26:47):
because then once we start to put those things away,
we become less and less of whowe are.
Mm-hmm.
And then start to fall for whowe've been told we should be.
Like you said, like if you're amom, you can't do this.
If you're not, you know, you'rea founder, you can't do this.
And it ultimately, it slowlyjust decreases our value of who
(27:08):
we are.
Agree,
Speaker 2 (27:09):
agree.
Not believing that
Speaker (27:12):
who I am today, it's probably not who I wanna be.
You know, I still have goals andaspirations as we all do, but
part of that getting comfortablewith identity is knowing that
it's an, it's a journey that Iam guiding.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Yeah.
And I think there's also theelement of deep program
deprogramming yourself to whatidentity you've been taught.
Speaker (27:33):
Mm.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Girl
Speaker (27:35):
you know, we from the Caribbean, you,
Speaker 2 (27:37):
yeah.
So there's been a lot ofdecentering of what a companion
partner does and what a careerlooks like, and you know what I
mean?
And it's just like, it doesn'tbring anybody.
It doesn't serve anybody rightto, to become something just
(27:57):
because that's what they say orthat's what you've been told.
But I've always been wanting toquestion.
Things, the rules, you know?
Right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker (28:07):
But that is a good thing.
And tell me how, how do youthink you're, you're pouring
that into river now?
Like how, how is Joe as the momhelping her find a, her identity
is just a little bean right now,but every single thing.
Right?
A loud
Speaker 2 (28:22):
one.
Yeah.
I, yeah.
I think it's just been, I thinkjust letting her embrace herself
and her, yeah.
She is who she is and she has avery unique, very specific
personality and she has a fightin her.
(28:42):
Yes.
And she's very emotionally intuned.
Yes.
You know, when she's upset andshe's very vulnerable, and even
if it inconveniences me orstresses me, I just let her have
it because I want her to embracethat as well.
Um, and she's, she's veryintuitive in terms of energies,
(29:06):
so I realize like my energy.
It's very transferrable to her.
So something I'm still, youknow, work in progress, but I
try to be present.
'cause now she's so funny, likeif I'm on my phone, she goes in
my face like this, like,
Speaker (29:21):
hello girl, you don't see me sitting right here.
Her face said, girl, you, youdon't see me sitting right here.
You don't see me.
I'm looking at you.
And I was like,
Speaker 2 (29:32):
put this phone down and turn the ring on.
But.
Yeah.
And I, and instead of just beinglike, okay for her, that's rude.
You know, I'm just like, she hasa point.
Yeah.
You know, let me be present.
So yeah, I'm en I'm enjoyingletting her embrace her
uniqueness.
That's,
Speaker (29:50):
and I love that you're, that you're speaking of her in
that way, right?
Her unique specific identity.
Because in the Caribbeanculture, in the pursuit to run
from shame, right?
Because I think everything is,oh my God, are you gonna discre
me?
Mm-hmm.
And the pursuit to run fromshame.
We fall for the programmingthat, you know, our grandparents
(30:12):
and they didn't even agree with.
Mm-hmm.
But in order to acclimate justin the you know, same
restrictions that we find in, inyou in other environments like
school and corporate, in orderto acclimate Yeah.
You kind of, you wanna protectyour child and your family
member in a way by giving themthis programming mm-hmm.
(30:33):
Mm-hmm.
Of what their identity should beso that they can be more
acceptable.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Yeah.
No, I agree.
I think.
Pick your partners who you'regonna have a child with.
Very wisely
Speaker (30:45):
girl.
We
Speaker 2 (30:45):
we're very aligned in terms of how we wanna raise her.
We're both very invested in theeducation and the development.
And he'll send me like articlesabout separation anxiety or
this, and there's just too manyresources in 2025 to say, I
didn't know or making certain.
(31:08):
We're gonna make mistakes.
That's inevitable.
Absolutely.
But if I can do, you know, shewas really difficult to sleep
and everybody gave me, you know,their 2 cents on what she needs
to do and blah, blah blah.
And I was like, you know what?
I'm gonna bring in a sleep likecoach and just.
Get somebody to train her.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
Um, it was the best 220 pounds I've ever spent in my
life.
Nice.
And I got a professional to comein and support it.
Yeah.
And now I can go anywhere in theworld.
And she has a nap.
She goes to sleep, she putsherself to sleep, whatever.
I remember I went back toTrinidad and everybody's like,
what she does, school shouldsleep and by herself and a
crying, but they couldn'tbelieve it.
And I'm like, the resources.
Speaker (31:48):
Just the resources work.
Like everything is not bush teaand you know, a warm rag, like
No, no.
And
Speaker 2 (31:56):
I get that's how you raised us and we survived.
And I hear that all the time.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
Yes.
But you
Speaker 2 (32:01):
see me and my child, I want to sleep.
Okay.
So I was like.
Speaker (32:06):
We are doing things differently.
Well also what you know better,you wanna do better.
Right, exactly.
'cause while, and I say this tomy family all the time, yes,
we're here and you know, we livethrough and, and survive through
it.
So if it was good for us, itshould be good.
Same thing for my daughters.
Right.
But I think once you knowbetter, you have the ability to
do better and helping shape.
The identity, especially we havedaughters.
(32:28):
We are raising black women inthis world.
Speaker 3 (32:30):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker (32:30):
You have to be mindful of that, you know what I mean?
And how do we help them navigatethat with a strong foundation?
Because it will always be ajourney.
Listen, we gonna be sitting hereat 80 something, sip and tea.
You know what I mean?
Clicking our cocktails like,girl, I don't even know.
Yeah.
It's a, it's a journey, but ifwe are well on this journey.
(32:53):
It's so much, it, it, it's somuch more fruitful.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I agree.
I agree.
And you know, as you know, youknow River's biracial.
Yes.
And she's growing up in London,in the uk and it's not, you
know, you come from a worldwhere black is black, but that's
not the case here.
And I think it's going to bereally interesting seeing how
she leans into her identity, youknow, as having an American,
(33:17):
Caribbean mother.
Speaker (33:18):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
And as well as a white English father and family.
And we're, and it's one, thereason why I wanted to raise her
in East London is I wanted herto be in an environment where
she feels comfortable in heridentity.
She doesn't feel like she needsto tick a box.
And you know, one of her bestfriends in nurseries, Japanese
and Russian, like she's in,she's in her element.
(33:41):
And she's exposed to differentcultures and mixtures and
backgrounds and, but I did it'cause I wanted her to feel
confident in her identity andnot feel like a fish outta water
somewhere.
Speaker (33:52):
And I also think what's most powerful than anything else
is that I am river.
Right.
Mm-hmm.
And I think I came to thatjunction as well as, as a young,
like I wanna say in elementaryschool, right?
Because people always tell me,you don't, I remember being so
irritated as a child, peopletelling me, you don't look like
a Jamaican.
Like, what does a Jamaican looklike?
(34:12):
That's the most ignorantstatement I've ever heard.
Mm-hmm.
But I always feel like I amsonika.
Right?
Mm-hmm.
These boxes were created to makehuman beings easily digestible,
right?
Mm-hmm.
To make their identity easilydigestible to the masses.
Yeah.
What if none of us are just abox?
Speaker 2 (34:32):
No.
No.
And I think, I think when youchallenge somebody and you don't
fit in their box of what theyperceive, that's what gets like
uncomfortable.
Speaker (34:41):
Yes.
Agreed, but why I, and I lovethis discussion because it helps
shape the definition of what anidentity should be.
It actually is uncomfortable.
Speaker 3 (34:54):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
You know what
Speaker (34:55):
I mean?
Because an identity is ajourney, I think, for me.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Mm-hmm.
I feel like identity.
Should be looked at as multiplethings can exist at once.
Mm.
Right.
So I can be black, I could be ofmixed heritage with the Asian
last name.
I could be Trinidadian, I couldhave, you know, American
cultural experience.
I could be all these things atonce.
(35:22):
One doesn't cancel the other.
You know, if I am choking blackon a box, it doesn't mean my
grandfather wasn't Chinese.
You know what I mean?
Like it's not, and I think it'sthis idea of one identity
canceling another.
Oh, you know, I am, I ambisexual.
I happen to marry a man.
Yeah.
You know, it doesn't cancel thatas my identity and who I am.
(35:44):
And a lot of people are like,why do you still even.
You know, acknowledge orrecognize.
Identify it.
Exactly.
And I'm like, because I didn'tstop.
Yeah.
You know, because I'm like, youdidn't just go click no more.
You know?
Yes.
It still exists.
So identities can exist andcoexist all at once.
(36:05):
And I think that's fine.
You know?
And I think if people acceptedthat, it would just be a lot
less labor intensive becausethey're like, but you said she's
from so and so, but why does shedo that?
And this, this, and I'm like,you're spending so much energy
trying to figure out this personwhen they're just showing up as
the, this is who they are.
Speaker (36:23):
That part.
That part.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
I love that.
I mean, but we're just allguilty of it.
Right.
And it's just being Caribbeanlike.
And, and my husband calls me allthe time.
He can't tell me a story and nottell me who they are.
He's like, so and so, and thisperson got in an accident.
I was like, they were, and theywere from, and he's like, why do
you always need to know that?
I was like, I'm sorry, but whenyou're Caribbean, you need
(36:47):
faces.
I need to know, like I'm tryingto illustrate the story in my
mind, context.
Give me all the things.
Context, context, context.
I'm like, African from whatcountry?
Yes.
Ghana, Nigeria,
Speaker (37:01):
it's like, I need to know all this.
Yes.
But I also say it forces us tochallenge our own belief system.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
Mm-hmm.
Because when someone's like, oh,she was Trinidadian, we know
that we all have inheritedbiases.
Right?
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
So when you hear she'sTrinidadian, in your mind, you
think she's like this.
(37:21):
Oh, she was in there cussing upthe plaza.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, yeah.
Or you hear she was Jamaican.
Oh, she had an attitude and youknow what I mean?
Mm-hmm.
You.
But I think exploring your ownpersonal identity, it forces you
to look straight at your biases.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
Yeah.
Yeah, I agree with that.
I agree with that completely.
And I think the cultural normsthing has been really
interesting.
Here because it's weird.
I get this kind of like Diasporapass'cause I'm Trinidad and
they're like, oh, you're notAmerican.
I was like, no, I am very much.
You know?
But it's just easier for them toidentify.
(37:58):
And it's just seeing all thedifferent like multifaceted
views of everyone's identity.
You know, African Americans arelike this and Caribbean people
are like this and Nigerians arelike this and Ghanaians, and
you're this, you're this.
And it just.
Yeah, like people feel reallycomfortable in that and what I
(38:19):
appreciate is like.
Conversations like this where Iget to pull back the layers and
introduce more of myself topeople.
You know, I don't cook.
I don't care to cook.
I don't like cooking.
I love to eat, but I don't cook.
Right?
And people come to my house andthey can't believe all that
food's cooked by the Englishwhite man.
And I'm like, I don't cook so Idon't know what to eat.
You know, like, so yeah, like alot.
(38:42):
You know, most nine women areproud of the, oh girl, you not
me.
Listen, you
Speaker (38:46):
preaching to the choir.
I remember being a teenagertelling my mother, I ain't doing
all this.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know,'cause they will comein the kitchen, look how much
season you put and how you cook.
And I'm just like, I'm not doingall this.
Granted I cook now but not'causeI want to or outta sheer
necessity out a she that I'm,and I'm not one of those people
that's like, come on over, I'mgonna make you a spread.
(39:07):
I'm gonna call a caterer.
Because I too wanna enjoy saidgathering.
No, not Bill for.
Not Bill.
I'm gonna call her caterer.
But what we can do together ismake these cocktails.
That's what we can do.
We can exactly what I think partof the ident, I think again,
they were sold the package ofwhat your identity should be as
(39:27):
a Caribbean woman.
Yeah, it should be someone who,you know, cook like, you know
what I mean?
Yeah.
You gotta cook, you gotta clean,you gotta, and then I think so
much of this programming steals.
Our essence of who we actuallyare, right?
Mm-hmm.
Because instead of you pouringinto your interest, and listen,
(39:49):
I really like to draw, you know,I really like to sew.
I really like computers.
Instead of you pouring into thethings that your innate interest
and the things you love and thethings that's calling you, you
go, whoa, whoa, whoa.
I first gotta hit the program.
I gotta, I gotta, right?
I gotta, I gotta put some energytowards hitting the program of
the identity that I was given.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
Yeah.
And I think, yeah, I agree.
Speaker (40:11):
So many women sometimes get caught up in that, right?
Yeah.
Especially after you have ababy.
When once you become a mother,whoa, whoa.
Here's a new program.
Mm-hmm.
You know, it's like, yeah.
I always go, who wrote theserules?
Who said that?
Man.
A man who wrote it benefits fromit.
(40:32):
Who said this?
It's like soon as you become amom, and I don't know, it just
comes from the ecosystem oflike, here's the pamphlet,
here's the program now.
Mm-hmm.
This is who you are.
Your identity is mother, andbecause your MO identity is now
mother, this is what you shouldbe doing and this is who you
should be.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
And I think you should also give yourself
permission to change youridentity in terms of like what
you.
Perceive yourself to be and, andeveryone evolves.
Yes.
You know, and that is fine andgive yourself permission, but I
think it's just, it's growth,right?
Your identity and how you walkaround in your twenties changes
very much in your thirties.
I'm now creeping, knocking on 40and mm-hmm.
(41:12):
It's just, I mean, just in adifferent place.
I'm in a very different placeand I'm just enjoying the
journey.
Speaker (41:17):
To be honest, and that I think is the best part, right,
is to enjoy the journey of youridentity.
I think that is a blessed placefor us to wrap because who you
are is who you want to become,and it's an ever changing flow,
right?
We are evolving, we're growing,and give yourself grace, because
(41:40):
sometimes in that growthprocess, there can be things
that you can then account asregression.
Yeah, right.
Yeah.
But maybe it's not regression.
Maybe it's actually you goingback to what you should have
been doing this entire time.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
Yeah, I completely
Speaker (41:56):
agree.
Joe, thank you so much for thisconversation.
Thank you.
This is amazing.
I really enjoyed it.
I always say, this is why I lovethis podcast so much, because
sharing our experiences and howwe come to identify identity,
there's every single personwatching this, listening to this
podcast can recall the momentthat they said, who am I really?
(42:19):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
How that has changed so much towho they are today, as well as
who they wanna be tomorrow.
And it's okay to be on thatjourney, but above all, make
time to be well.
Can I agree more?
Oh, Joe, thank you so much.
Before we let you go, tell thepeople where to find you.
(42:40):
'cause you know, Joe's a big,big star out here in these
streets.
I just want y'all to know thatlike we don't have no thinking
thanking, don't, don't do allthat.
We don't have no thinking,thanking people on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Um, I'm Rey.
It's Who is Joe Long.
On everything.
Yes.
So yeah.
Who is
Speaker (42:57):
J-O-W-O-N-G?
Awesome.
And follow Joe on all platforms.
And thank you so much forlistening and watching this
episode.
Thank you.
Of how do you divine identity?
Welcome back to this episode of How Do You Divine,
(00:04):
and today we are gonna speak toJoe Wang on how we have come to
define identity.
Joe, how are you?
I'm good.
How are you?
How is New York?
Uh, New York is in full summerspring mode because one day it's
summer.
The next day it's spring.
But New York summer, I feel likeis a movement.
(00:25):
It's a vibe.
You know what I mean?
Mm-hmm.
Like be New York in thesummertime, there's no better
rooftop.
I'll, I'll put money on that.
Okay.
There's no better rooftop than arooftop in New York City, but
then there are days that theheat is offensive.
We, in one of those days, we'rein one of those days.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
I hear.
I hear it.
I hear.
Speaker (00:43):
So, Joe, when we spoke about being on the podcast,
something that I think justresonated in our conversations
was around exploring identity,as black women in corporate as
well as founders andentrepreneurs and moms.
Right?
Mm-hmm.
How we've come to identifyourselves, range in different
seasons of our lives.
(01:04):
And I wanted to take you back tothe first day Joe said, who is
Joe?
Who is Joe Wang?
Speaker 2 (01:12):
You say Wang.
It's Wong like Only, I'll onlylet you call me Wang Joe.
Who is Joe Wong?
You know, it's interesting.
I feel like, um.
When you meet somebody for thefirst time and you're pulling
back all the layers, or you'rebeginning the introduction of
yourself, there's always thisinternal battle of, what am I
going to share?
Like if it is, where are youfrom?
(01:36):
Yeah.
That simple question of whereare you from?
I find so difficult because youknow, as I shared with you, I am
from Trinidad.
But as you can hear from myaccent, I left when I was young,
but that is my identity.
I'm Trinidadian.
We lived in Canada.
I grew up in Chicago.
I went to school in Florida, Ilived in Miami.
(01:57):
So all those places are a partof my identity, like.
If I see something about theChicago Bulls, that's nostalgic
for me.
If there's something about citygirls, I'm like, I'm a Miami
girl.
You know what I mean?
So there's so many layers.
And now as you know, I live inLondon.
Yes.
So I meet people all the timeand they're just like, who are
you?
Where are you from?
And I don't even know how toanswer to say, you know, it is,
(02:21):
but you tend to just go theeasiest answer because it just,
it's how much time do you have?
Because I'm not.
I'm not a one sentence, if thatmakes sense.
My identity is multiplesentences.
It's almost as if I have a bioof I am Caribbean American,
(02:43):
expat living in London.
A mother, yes, a business owner,one's corporate.
But yeah, a lot of my identityis just wrapped up in so many
things.
Speaker (02:55):
That's so I love how you took us through the journey
of all the places, right?
That has made you who you are.
But it also makes me feel likebeing a black woman in these
different spaces also shape notjust like our physical identity,
but who we are internally.
Right.
So give, take me back to YoungJoe.
Was Young Joe, just theTrinidadian girl in Canada?
(03:16):
Like how, how, how has thatevolved young
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Joe?
You know, I would say.
Young, so I went throughevolutions of my name.
So my, my full name is Jo.
Mm-hmm.
And nobody calls me Jos, butlike my family.
So I would say Young Jos was inChicago, and I always felt like
two people outside of home andinside of home.
(03:41):
And I know somebody at thediaspora understands exactly
what I mean.
Mm-hmm.
So in Chicago, there's not amassive Caribbean, west Indian
population.
So at school I was, I guess,from the outside African
American, black.
And I immersed myself in theculture and you know, face
value, that's what it was.
But then I would go home to thisother world and my mom would be
(04:03):
in the house with the wrap skirton playing Soca, eating, you
know, pillow and stew chickenand you know, I just felt like I
was always managing two worlds.
Yes.
And when I would bring peopleinto my world or somebody called
the house.
And asked for me and heard myfather's accent.
They're like, what?
You know, it was just, it wasjust really interesting to
(04:27):
facilitate both spaces andlearning that from a young age.
And it doesn't help.
I have an Asian last name, sofirst day of school it would be,
they'd say Jos won.
She, and I'd raise my hand andwe like, no, no.
Um, we said Joses won.
She, and I'd have to sit thereand be like, that's my name.
And that was just out the box.
(04:48):
You know, so I never felt likemy identity matched anything I
had seen before as a child.
So I felt like I was alwaysreinventing myself.
Speaker (04:59):
Ooh, for that reason.
I love that.
And I think so many of us canrelate to the managing of two
worlds, right?
I say it's the best of bothworlds being Jamaican, I had the
same, you know, kind ofexperience where, you know,
especially when, as you say,with your accent, and there's
the accent, there's the patois.
But navigating those spaces,especially with a unique name.
(05:20):
How was that for you in school?
Like who is Josette?
Like, you know, I know you hadso many conversations as a
child.
How did you navigate that space,like in middle school, high
school?
Speaker 2 (05:33):
You know, I actually think it gave me, I was very
extroverted.
I was very friendly and I thinkbecause I felt different.
I gravitated to people that feltdifferent.
And I was, my friends used tojoke with me.
'cause you know, when you werewalking in school, in the
hallway, I would say hi toeveryone.
I knew everyone.
(05:53):
I, I don't wanna say I waspopular, I was social.
Speaker (05:56):
Same.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
There was like the weird kid that used to duct tape
everything.
I was friends with him.
I found him fascinating.
I was like, what's up?
You know, we good.
And I think because I felt.
Out of water.
Speaker (06:09):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
I recognized that in other people, people.
So there was always this, so Iwas into indie rock music, but
also hip hop.
I was in dance, I was intotheater.
I, I did multiple things and Iwas always in multiple groups of
friends because of that.
Speaker (06:30):
I love, but I love how you gave yourself permission to
be Joe.
At an early age.
Right, because that is, that isan outsider's perspective,
right?
I think when we are in thesespaces like school and things
like that, you wanna acclimate,right?
I always say as much as we hearstandout, especially in
Caribbean community, right?
(06:51):
You, you, if you don't stand forsomething, you fall for
everything.
So your parents tell you to bewho you are and all of these
things, but when you get intothe school setting, you really
just wanna acclimate.
You just want, yeah.
To blend in.
But I love how you.
You identified early on that I'man outsider, so I want to see,
you know, I'm finding theoutsiderness in everyone else
(07:11):
that was so and so show.
Tell me about how that helpedbuild this bold human that we
come to know.
'cause I think that was such abold move, even as a child,
right?
Yep.
I have a unique name.
I'm Trinidadian.
Here I am.
What's up?
Like, you know what I mean?
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
I was telling somebody the story the other
day, so in school we had, Idon't know if you guys did this,
I tell people in England andthey're like, what is that?
We had something called a reallife project and we had to get a
real job, not get a job, butlike a fake, you know, a real
job.
Um, pay, rent, balance, ourcheckbook and mind you we're in
Chicago and everybody had normaljobs and stuff in Chicago, and I
(07:54):
was a flight attendant thatlived in Miami.
Never been to Miami before, butin my head, I'm not staying
here.
I'm traveling the world.
So I was a flight attendant.
I lived in Coral Gables, I had asports car, whatever, whatever.
And the irony of it is Imanifested my life in a weird
way.
I was just gonna say thatbecause I ended up having a
(08:15):
travel position in Miami.
I did not live far from CoralGables.
I did have a two.
Like a, a sports car.
And it's not till I was in mylate twenties, early thirties.
I was like, wait a minute.
I kind of manifested this life.
Oh, I've never been to Miamibefore.
I just, in my head, I wanna livesomewhere.
It was hot.
I wanted to travel, but I alwayshad this like, bigger vision.
(08:35):
And you know what?
I could, I talking to you, Ithink I could attest it to, and
you could can maybe speak tothis.
My mother had me travel fromyoung.
And I was exposed to the world.
Yeah.
So I had seen more than Chicago.
You know, I had went back toTrinidad almost every summer.
Mm-hmm.
And spent time with family andwas exposed to different
cultures and backgrounds.
(08:56):
I'd be in Brooklyn for thesummer.
I'd be in Orlando, I'd be, Ithink that this opened myself up
that there's a world bigger thanhere.
Speaker (09:03):
Yes.
And that you can dream, right?
And I think, right.
I think in the Caribbeanculture, we don't necessarily
identify it as dreaming.
It's like ambition.
And you know, it's usuallytargeted towards like a career
aspiration, right?
Be a nurse, be a doctor, be alawyer.
And you don't realize when youopen up yourself to the world,
your identity starts to changeas well, because it doesn't just
(09:27):
become who I am, it's what Iwanna be.
No,
Speaker 2 (09:30):
I think so.
And I think.
Looking at my family dynamicsand looking at my, my parents,
and we had had so many people inproximity of all different
backgrounds and type of jobs andin, you know, occupations.
So you're just exposed to more,you, you realize more.
And I, I definitely think itshaped me differently.
(09:52):
In terms of what I felt as aconcept I could be in the
future,
Speaker (09:57):
and I love that in middle school you're like, I'm
going to be a flight attendant.
I'm gonna live in Miami.
I'm gonna have a sports car.
Because to me that level ofdetail shows you that you've
always aspired to have a goodday-to-day life.
I think sometimes when peopleare like, like, I love this real
world project.
I've never heard about itbefore, but now I'm like,
everyone should implement thisin their, in the curriculum.
(10:19):
Every child should have a realworld project because it makes
you aspire to what yourday-to-day life is versus like
this ultimate goal, right?
Because I think when we thinkabout what we wanna be and who
we wanna be in life, it's like,I wanna be wealthy, I wanna be
rich.
Like, you know, it's always likethis one singular target.
It's not actually.
What my days are and who I wannabe.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
Well, I'll say my mom.
I, the thing things I willdefinitely take with her, with
my little one is she showed menice things.
She showed me luxury.
She showed me I deserve it morethan anyone.
And she also talked to me aboutwhat it takes to earn it.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:57):
You
Speaker 2 (10:57):
know, and I remember if I wanted something, I, I
really wanted this boombox.
And she was like, all right,save half of it.
And I'll put in the other halfand you'll get this.
And so I understood what it wasto work towards something.
So I wanted a car.
I babysat all summer, you know,weeks and weeks and weeks to
save up a down payment.
(11:18):
And so there was definitelythis, this aspect of you do
deserve.
In terms of like a growthabundance mindset?
Yes.
It was always instilled in meand my partner now grew up very
different.
You know, he grew up English,working class, nice things.
You don't get nice things that'snot for you.
And classism is something I'velearned a lot more evident here.
(11:41):
So when I see him interact withcertain things, I realized he
wasn't raised with an abundancemindset.
Um.
I think instilling that in me soyoung, it was like, what can I
not do?
What can I not have?
That
Speaker 3 (11:54):
part, you know,
Speaker 2 (11:55):
that part.
But I think it's the work ethicand the sacrifice it takes for
it is what I don't necessarilythink people connect with all
the time.
So it wasn't just, you deservenice things and there's a sense
of entitlement.
It was, you deserve nice things,but nice things take sacrifices.
Speaker (12:12):
And hard work.
You're
Speaker 2 (12:13):
gonna need to work hard.
You're gonna need to not dothings.
You know, there were summers Ididn't hang out with friends
'cause I was working.
Speaker (12:19):
Oh girl.
Talk to me about it.
I've been, I had a job since Iwas 15.
So same, same.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
So talk to me about it.
But she gave me the gift ofearning something.
Speaker (12:31):
Yeah.
You know,
Speaker 2 (12:32):
when I drove that car around, it was like.
It like, it's my car, you know,I, I, I'm sweat, blood and tears
went into this, you know, so I,I, I definitely thank her for
that.
Like I love that and I will dothe same for sure.
The river.
Speaker (12:45):
I, no, I love that.
And I wanna talk about how thatmindset of abundance, like
shaped your identity when youentered corporate.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
I don't think it did.
I think it shut down.
I think in corporate I was, Ialways had this weird mindset
that like, I snuck in the backdoor.
They're gonna figure out anymoment I'm not supposed to be
here.
Really?
Yeah.
Really.
I really felt like they'regonna, the gig is up.
(13:18):
They're gonna figure out.
She has no idea what she'sdoing.
I think
Speaker (13:22):
that's so
Speaker 2 (13:23):
interesting.
Thank you.
Speaker (13:24):
Thinking of all your, thank you so much for
Speaker 2 (13:26):
your con No, thank you so much for your
contribution.
But what you know, day left, um.
But yeah, I felt like that for areally, really long time because
I, just to give kind of mystory, I started off on the
sales floor, Mac makeup, artistbeating faces, but I just, I was
always commercial.
I always looked at sales.
(13:47):
I always knew what my goal was.
I always walked in on a Saturdaywith already my sales goal in
for the week, if not month.
Nice.
And I'd be there chilling whileeveryone else is scrambling to
make their target.
And it was just always naturalfor me, and it didn't feel like
work.
And I think'cause of that, whenI moved into corporate and
(14:07):
stepped into that space, Ididn't take the traditional
route.
Mm.
I wasn't recruited from a senseof finishing my MBA and going
into corporate.
I was, I was staff, I was on thesales floor, and then.
Graduated, I was able to stepin.
Yeah.
And I think'cause of that, I waslike, oh, they're gonna figure
out, I'm actually a makeupartist that just can calculate
(14:29):
sales.
That is good
Speaker (14:31):
at the operations and organizations of sales
structure.
As black women, we oftenquestion our route to success.
Right.
Our validity.
Although we have like the marks,but really the journey to prove
it.
That's why I don't think, Iwouldn't say it's like an
imposter syndrome.
I just think sometimes we'resold that this is what corporate
(14:52):
executives should have.
You should go to Stanford, youshould go to Harvard, you should
have an MBA.
You should have wrote a review.
Like, you know what I mean?
Like this is the structure thatthe identity of an executive
should have.
A
Speaker 2 (15:07):
hundred percent.
Like I was meticulous to thepoint of how I wore my hair or
how I dressed, or, I mean, Istill was getting it wrong.
I don't know what kind ofoutfits I was wearing when I
first started.
I was wearing body con dressesthinking I'm doing something, a
mess, a mess.
But I really, I just, I justwanted to flip the part.
Yeah.
I wanted to be taken seriously.
(15:28):
I wanted to fit the part.
I wanted everyone to believe Iknew what I was doing, and the
confidence slowly came.
As what I was doing was working.
Speaker (15:39):
Yeah.
And
Speaker 2 (15:39):
it was sticking and I was seeing the impact and I was
seeing, I'm very results driven.
So seeing that as well.
But I think the mistake I madewas that then became my
identity.
Ooh.
Um, instead of me being JoeLong, I was the corporate girl
that travels for work with Matt,and I would lead with that.
(16:04):
Because I felt it gave mecredibility, it gave me value,
it gave me worth.
So looking back, I was so muchmore than that.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
Yeah.
But
Speaker 2 (16:12):
that, because it was so much of my identity, I feel
like it steered my relationshipsgood and bad.
Yeah.
Uh, it, I sacrificed a lot ofthings wanting to keep proving
myself.
And it became almost addictiveto be that corporate girly and
whatnot.
(16:32):
And it wasn't until COVID, Itook a step back and I said, but
what does this even mean?
Speaker (16:43):
Who am I even outside?
Right.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Right.
And I think it was COVID whereit was really a look in the
mirror of who?
Who are you?
Yeah.
As I like.
Fell apart, nailed lashes, hair,
Speaker (16:58):
all, all of the maintenance appointments were no
longer being made.
No, listen, listen, you rough.
It's such
Speaker 2 (17:05):
literally you're rough.
But I had to like face myself.
Yes.
And just have that really deepconversation of who are you?
Speaker (17:16):
And not just, who are you?
What do you wanna be?
I think COVID did that for manypeople right across the world
where the things that we haveused to armor ourselves is who
we are and what we are in thisworld.
Were no longer available.
Mm-hmm.
And then you had to look atyourself square in the face and
say, but what, who am I outsideof these things?
(17:38):
Hmm.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
No, I agree.
I agree.
And I think my identity in termsof.
Am I supposed to be a wife?
Am I supposed to be a mother?
Should I stay in London?
Because I moved, I, I, all I hadwas me and I picked up, packed
up everything and moved here fora career.
Speaker (17:59):
Yeah.
And
Speaker 2 (17:59):
sacrificed being away from friends and family, you
know, relationships, whatever.
So when I met my now partner.
And I was, I guess you couldsay, introducing myself for the
first time.
There was a lot of selfdiscovery.
'cause he was actually one ofthe first people I had been with
where I was so raw andauthentic.
(18:21):
So like no lashes, no nails, nowig, just rough.
And I, and I kind of had thisjust real, yeah, very real.
And I kind of had this mentalityof like, you could take it or
leave it.
This is just what it is.
And we were very aligned invalues.
(18:41):
So it was one of the firstrelationships I just used to
speak so openly about how I feltabout things or how I wanted to
live my life or things I wantedfor myself.
And, um.
Yeah, I think that's when Istarted really learning who I
was.
Speaker (18:59):
Yes.
This is a good conversationbecause we don't realize
sometimes how we become thethings.
The who we are is the career,the, the titles.
But we lose ourselves in justtrying to maintain the titles.
The mom, the sister, the friend,the, you know what I mean?
Actually this was like a greatjourney for you because you had,
(19:22):
first, you've already separatedyourself from an, from an
environment standpoint.
Right?
You got, you moved to London inpursuit of this career.
So now I am Joe, I'm thisexecutive.
Killing it in corporate and nowCOVID happens.
Hmm.
So there is no more work.
There is no more title.
Yeah.
And who?
Who is Joe.
And
Speaker 2 (19:42):
who is Joe.
And then when I went to, when Ileft Estee Lauder and I went to
Farfetched, I made a consciousdecision to be Joe Wong is me.
Right?
Because I used to.
I used to reward a lot of mysuccess to the company I worked
for, not the work I did.
(20:04):
Mm.
So when I stepped away fromLauder, I was like, no, no, no,
no.
I did all that because of me.
Once when another companyapproached me, I was like, oh,
wait.
Um, I'm actually a big deal.
I'm actually, I, I can do somethings.
When they appreciated my skillsand my expertise and my work, I
then realized I'm bigger than atitle.
I'm bigger than a role.
(20:26):
And that's when I reallyseparated the two.
Yes, I was who I was at work andI was very dedicated to what I
did at work, but I also had myown personal brand and that's
when I really started investingin social media and doing
content and just speaking likeabout myself.
Speaker (20:46):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
In a way that, not worried about my perception or
how people would view it.
Because I think sometimes withsocial media, you want the
audience to love you from analgorithm or whatever the case
is.
But what I found on social mediais I found my tribe.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
Yeah.
You know, I
Speaker 2 (21:04):
found my spiritual witchy, vegan, vegetarian,
expat.
Like I found my people.
Yeah.
And I was like, oh, we're outhere.
And the more I was just likereally honest and authentic
about who I was, an identity.
In these platforms, the more Ifound my people.
(21:24):
I love that.
In that
Speaker (21:26):
I love that.
And you've taught me that.
You've told me time and timeagain, sneak, I wanna see more
of you online.
And I'm working on it.
I'm working on it.
I'm definitely gonna do that.
But I think you pointed outsomething that is so unique and
powerful that I wanted to justdouble click on.
Look, my corporate speak, doubleclick, like circle back.
Right?
(21:46):
Circling back.
About the, that unique momentwhere you start to separate your
role in your company with yourskills.
Mm-hmm.
I think it's black women oftenwe are just like, you know, we
are achieving a quota, we'rebuilding the projects, we are
making sure things are getting.
Done for the company, and somuch of our effort, we equate to
(22:09):
an entity and a role, but wedon't.
Mm-hmm.
Sometimes look in the mirror andsay, Ika, look at what you've
learned.
Look at what you'veaccomplished.
Right?
Mm-hmm.
And then focus on those skillsand highlight those skills.
Mm-hmm.
Because those skills is whatempowers you as a professional,
but then it also reassures youas a human being that you're
(22:30):
growing and you're becoming whoyou wanna be.
No, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
I think when I decided to do my MBA, it was
also to validate myself becauseI know, I know the work.
Speaker (22:46):
Yeah,
Speaker 2 (22:47):
right.
But it was, it was aconfirmation for me to say all
this experience.
It wasn't by mistake.
Yeah.
The success.
The success I had, and that'swhat the MBA confirmed for me.
I, I understood the content.
I'll have more context now tospeak to things in a, a
(23:08):
different level of confidence,and I'm happy I did it the way I
did it.
I'm happy I didn't stop workingand go and do it to validate
myself.
I did it after I found somegreat success, but yeah, I
agree.
I think sometimes, yeah, we, wedon't.
I see this with the founders Iwork with, we don't value
(23:31):
ourselves enough in terms ofwhat we charge.
Yeah.
Our prices, our value in termsof access to us.
Yeah.
The work we contribute and giveto companies, we will put
ourselves through burnout toprove ourselves.
Speaker (23:50):
We will.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
And that that in itself is just, is one of the
barriers we face.
Speaker (23:55):
All the time.
Right, and I think it's, I thinka part of that is knowing your
identity separate from all thethings.
Right.
Separate from being the mom,being the wife, being the
partner, being the executive,being the corporate girly.
Mm-hmm.
A large portion of that ismaking space to be, well, and I
talk about this all the time,that if we are not pursuing
(24:18):
wellness for Sonika, like ifSonika is not saying, what does
Sonika need today?
Do I need a power of silence?
Do I need tea?
Do I need to walk?
Do I need to get out my ownhead?
We are easily so critical of.
Like who we are.
Like, oh, you know, you have anattitude.
Oh, you know, you short, like,you know what I mean?
We're so critical of ourselvessometimes that we don't even
(24:39):
make space for wellness.
Mm-hmm.
To become who we are.
Right.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
And I think in addition to that, we don't show
up in those spaces as ourselves.
Mm.
Similar to when I startedworking in corporate.
I came in as this character.
Of myself or this, yes.
You know, this, this person thatI'm not, yeah.
But I felt the same in marriagerelationship.
(25:07):
I felt the same becoming amother, you know, moms don't do
that, or this and this.
And I've just made a commitmentthat I'm gonna show up in all
these roles, still my, myidentity.
Yeah.
In my way.
Yeah.
You know, um, not pushing thatdown.
I am a fun mom.
I love to dance.
I love to have a good time withmy daughter, that that's who we
(25:30):
are.
Yeah.
You know?
And if I didn't show up likethat, I would be becoming
something else.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
Yeah.
So I think
Speaker 2 (25:36):
it's just like protecting your identity in
these different roles as well,and not suppressing it.
Speaker (25:42):
How did you get comfortable doing that?
Right?
I think it's such a journey.
Do you think COVID was yourjourney in becoming more
comfortable in the identity ofJoe and then taking the layers?
'cause I always see it as thenucleus, right?
You just, the identity of me andthen it's the mom, then it's,
it's all the things outside ofthat.
How did you get comfortablethere?
Speaker 2 (26:04):
I don't even know if I still am.
Sometimes though I feel likeit's been a journey and I'm
still on the journey.
Yes, because you still have likethe saboteur moments or voices.
Speaker (26:15):
Yes.
And you'll always have momentsand it's okay, but I know, but I
think it's accepting that.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
Yeah.
And just knowing, just functionbetter when I'm like that.
It's almost just like it's It'sa necessity.
Speaker (26:28):
Yeah.
To get
Speaker 2 (26:28):
by.
Speaker (26:29):
Yeah, like my
Speaker 2 (26:30):
girlfriend messaged me today and she's like, can we
go out dancing this weekend?
I was like, please, can we, Ineed to hear some music.
Like, I need to not suppressthat part of me because I'm a
mom now and this and this andyou know, you'll be 40.
I just, I still have to likefeed that.
I still have to pour into myselfin that way
Speaker (26:47):
because then once we start to put those things away,
we become less and less of whowe are.
Mm-hmm.
And then start to fall for whowe've been told we should be.
Like you said, like if you're amom, you can't do this.
If you're not, you know, you'rea founder, you can't do this.
And it ultimately, it slowlyjust decreases our value of who
(27:08):
we are.
Agree,
Speaker 2 (27:09):
agree.
Not believing that
Speaker (27:12):
who I am today, it's probably not who I wanna be.
You know, I still have goals andaspirations as we all do, but
part of that getting comfortablewith identity is knowing that
it's an, it's a journey that Iam guiding.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Yeah.
And I think there's also theelement of deep program
deprogramming yourself to whatidentity you've been taught.
Speaker (27:33):
Mm.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Girl
Speaker (27:35):
you know, we from the Caribbean, you,
Speaker 2 (27:37):
yeah.
So there's been a lot ofdecentering of what a companion
partner does and what a careerlooks like, and you know what I
mean?
And it's just like, it doesn'tbring anybody.
It doesn't serve anybody rightto, to become something just
(27:57):
because that's what they say orthat's what you've been told.
But I've always been wanting toquestion.
Things, the rules, you know?
Right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker (28:07):
But that is a good thing.
And tell me how, how do youthink you're, you're pouring
that into river now?
Like how, how is Joe as the momhelping her find a, her identity
is just a little bean right now,but every single thing.
Right?
A loud
Speaker 2 (28:22):
one.
Yeah.
I, yeah.
I think it's just been, I thinkjust letting her embrace herself
and her, yeah.
She is who she is and she has avery unique, very specific
personality and she has a fightin her.
(28:42):
Yes.
And she's very emotionally intuned.
Yes.
You know, when she's upset andshe's very vulnerable, and even
if it inconveniences me orstresses me, I just let her have
it because I want her to embracethat as well.
Um, and she's, she's veryintuitive in terms of energies,
(29:06):
so I realize like my energy.
It's very transferrable to her.
So something I'm still, youknow, work in progress, but I
try to be present.
'cause now she's so funny, likeif I'm on my phone, she goes in
my face like this, like,
Speaker (29:21):
hello girl, you don't see me sitting right here.
Her face said, girl, you, youdon't see me sitting right here.
You don't see me.
I'm looking at you.
And I was like,
Speaker 2 (29:32):
put this phone down and turn the ring on.
But.
Yeah.
And I, and instead of just beinglike, okay for her, that's rude.
You know, I'm just like, she hasa point.
Yeah.
You know, let me be present.
So yeah, I'm en I'm enjoyingletting her embrace her
uniqueness.
That's,
Speaker (29:50):
and I love that you're, that you're speaking of her in
that way, right?
Her unique specific identity.
Because in the Caribbeanculture, in the pursuit to run
from shame, right?
Because I think everything is,oh my God, are you gonna discre
me?
Mm-hmm.
And the pursuit to run fromshame.
We fall for the programmingthat, you know, our grandparents
(30:12):
and they didn't even agree with.
Mm-hmm.
But in order to acclimate justin the you know, same
restrictions that we find in, inyou in other environments like
school and corporate, in orderto acclimate Yeah.
You kind of, you wanna protectyour child and your family
member in a way by giving themthis programming mm-hmm.
(30:33):
Mm-hmm.
Of what their identity should beso that they can be more
acceptable.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Yeah.
No, I agree.
I think.
Pick your partners who you'regonna have a child with.
Very wisely
Speaker (30:45):
girl.
We
Speaker 2 (30:45):
we're very aligned in terms of how we wanna raise her.
We're both very invested in theeducation and the development.
And he'll send me like articlesabout separation anxiety or
this, and there's just too manyresources in 2025 to say, I
didn't know or making certain.
(31:08):
We're gonna make mistakes.
That's inevitable.
Absolutely.
But if I can do, you know, shewas really difficult to sleep
and everybody gave me, you know,their 2 cents on what she needs
to do and blah, blah blah.
And I was like, you know what?
I'm gonna bring in a sleep likecoach and just.
Get somebody to train her.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
Um, it was the best 220 pounds I've ever spent in my
life.
Nice.
And I got a professional to comein and support it.
Yeah.
And now I can go anywhere in theworld.
And she has a nap.
She goes to sleep, she putsherself to sleep, whatever.
I remember I went back toTrinidad and everybody's like,
what she does, school shouldsleep and by herself and a
crying, but they couldn'tbelieve it.
And I'm like, the resources.
Speaker (31:48):
Just the resources work.
Like everything is not bush teaand you know, a warm rag, like
No, no.
And
Speaker 2 (31:56):
I get that's how you raised us and we survived.
And I hear that all the time.
Speaker 3 (32:01):
Yes.
But you
Speaker 2 (32:01):
see me and my child, I want to sleep.
Okay.
So I was like.
Speaker (32:06):
We are doing things differently.
Well also what you know better,you wanna do better.
Right, exactly.
'cause while, and I say this tomy family all the time, yes,
we're here and you know, we livethrough and, and survive through
it.
So if it was good for us, itshould be good.
Same thing for my daughters.
Right.
But I think once you knowbetter, you have the ability to
do better and helping shape.
The identity, especially we havedaughters.
(32:28):
We are raising black women inthis world.
Speaker 3 (32:30):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker (32:30):
You have to be mindful of that, you know what I mean?
And how do we help them navigatethat with a strong foundation?
Because it will always be ajourney.
Listen, we gonna be sitting hereat 80 something, sip and tea.
You know what I mean?
Clicking our cocktails like,girl, I don't even know.
Yeah.
It's a, it's a journey, but ifwe are well on this journey.
(32:53):
It's so much, it, it, it's somuch more fruitful.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I agree.
I agree.
And you know, as you know, youknow River's biracial.
Yes.
And she's growing up in London,in the uk and it's not, you
know, you come from a worldwhere black is black, but that's
not the case here.
And I think it's going to bereally interesting seeing how
she leans into her identity, youknow, as having an American,
(33:17):
Caribbean mother.
Speaker (33:18):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
And as well as a white English father and family.
And we're, and it's one, thereason why I wanted to raise her
in East London is I wanted herto be in an environment where
she feels comfortable in heridentity.
She doesn't feel like she needsto tick a box.
And you know, one of her bestfriends in nurseries, Japanese
and Russian, like she's in,she's in her element.
(33:41):
And she's exposed to differentcultures and mixtures and
backgrounds and, but I did it'cause I wanted her to feel
confident in her identity andnot feel like a fish outta water
somewhere.
Speaker (33:52):
And I also think what's most powerful than anything else
is that I am river.
Right.
Mm-hmm.
And I think I came to thatjunction as well as, as a young,
like I wanna say in elementaryschool, right?
Because people always tell me,you don't, I remember being so
irritated as a child, peopletelling me, you don't look like
a Jamaican.
Like, what does a Jamaican looklike?
(34:12):
That's the most ignorantstatement I've ever heard.
Mm-hmm.
But I always feel like I amsonika.
Right?
Mm-hmm.
These boxes were created to makehuman beings easily digestible,
right?
Mm-hmm.
To make their identity easilydigestible to the masses.
Yeah.
What if none of us are just abox?
Speaker 2 (34:32):
No.
No.
And I think, I think when youchallenge somebody and you don't
fit in their box of what theyperceive, that's what gets like
uncomfortable.
Speaker (34:41):
Yes.
Agreed, but why I, and I lovethis discussion because it helps
shape the definition of what anidentity should be.
It actually is uncomfortable.
Speaker 3 (34:54):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
You know what
Speaker (34:55):
I mean?
Because an identity is ajourney, I think, for me.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Mm-hmm.
I feel like identity.
Should be looked at as multiplethings can exist at once.
Mm.
Right.
So I can be black, I could be ofmixed heritage with the Asian
last name.
I could be Trinidadian, I couldhave, you know, American
cultural experience.
I could be all these things atonce.
(35:22):
One doesn't cancel the other.
You know, if I am choking blackon a box, it doesn't mean my
grandfather wasn't Chinese.
You know what I mean?
Like it's not, and I think it'sthis idea of one identity
canceling another.
Oh, you know, I am, I ambisexual.
I happen to marry a man.
Yeah.
You know, it doesn't cancel thatas my identity and who I am.
(35:44):
And a lot of people are like,why do you still even.
You know, acknowledge orrecognize.
Identify it.
Exactly.
And I'm like, because I didn'tstop.
Yeah.
You know, because I'm like, youdidn't just go click no more.
You know?
Yes.
It still exists.
So identities can exist andcoexist all at once.
(36:05):
And I think that's fine.
You know?
And I think if people acceptedthat, it would just be a lot
less labor intensive becausethey're like, but you said she's
from so and so, but why does shedo that?
And this, this, and I'm like,you're spending so much energy
trying to figure out this personwhen they're just showing up as
the, this is who they are.
Speaker (36:23):
That part.
That part.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
I love that.
I mean, but we're just allguilty of it.
Right.
And it's just being Caribbeanlike.
And, and my husband calls me allthe time.
He can't tell me a story and nottell me who they are.
He's like, so and so, and thisperson got in an accident.
I was like, they were, and theywere from, and he's like, why do
you always need to know that?
I was like, I'm sorry, but whenyou're Caribbean, you need
(36:47):
faces.
I need to know, like I'm tryingto illustrate the story in my
mind, context.
Give me all the things.
Context, context, context.
I'm like, African from whatcountry?
Yes.
Ghana, Nigeria,
Speaker (37:01):
it's like, I need to know all this.
Yes.
But I also say it forces us tochallenge our own belief system.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
Mm-hmm.
Because when someone's like, oh,she was Trinidadian, we know
that we all have inheritedbiases.
Right?
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
So when you hear she'sTrinidadian, in your mind, you
think she's like this.
(37:21):
Oh, she was in there cussing upthe plaza.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, yeah.
Or you hear she was Jamaican.
Oh, she had an attitude and youknow what I mean?
Mm-hmm.
You.
But I think exploring your ownpersonal identity, it forces you
to look straight at your biases.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
Yeah.
Yeah, I agree with that.
I agree with that completely.
And I think the cultural normsthing has been really
interesting.
Here because it's weird.
I get this kind of like Diasporapass'cause I'm Trinidad and
they're like, oh, you're notAmerican.
I was like, no, I am very much.
You know?
But it's just easier for them toidentify.
(37:58):
And it's just seeing all thedifferent like multifaceted
views of everyone's identity.
You know, African Americans arelike this and Caribbean people
are like this and Nigerians arelike this and Ghanaians, and
you're this, you're this.
And it just.
Yeah, like people feel reallycomfortable in that and what I
(38:19):
appreciate is like.
Conversations like this where Iget to pull back the layers and
introduce more of myself topeople.
You know, I don't cook.
I don't care to cook.
I don't like cooking.
I love to eat, but I don't cook.
Right?
And people come to my house andthey can't believe all that
food's cooked by the Englishwhite man.
And I'm like, I don't cook so Idon't know what to eat.
You know, like, so yeah, like alot.
(38:42):
You know, most nine women areproud of the, oh girl, you not
me.
Listen, you
Speaker (38:46):
preaching to the choir.
I remember being a teenagertelling my mother, I ain't doing
all this.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know,'cause they will comein the kitchen, look how much
season you put and how you cook.
And I'm just like, I'm not doingall this.
Granted I cook now but not'causeI want to or outta sheer
necessity out a she that I'm,and I'm not one of those people
that's like, come on over, I'mgonna make you a spread.
(39:07):
I'm gonna call a caterer.
Because I too wanna enjoy saidgathering.
No, not Bill for.
Not Bill.
I'm gonna call her caterer.
But what we can do together ismake these cocktails.
That's what we can do.
We can exactly what I think partof the ident, I think again,
they were sold the package ofwhat your identity should be as
(39:27):
a Caribbean woman.
Yeah, it should be someone who,you know, cook like, you know
what I mean?
Yeah.
You gotta cook, you gotta clean,you gotta, and then I think so
much of this programming steals.
Our essence of who we actuallyare, right?
Mm-hmm.
Because instead of you pouringinto your interest, and listen,
(39:49):
I really like to draw, you know,I really like to sew.
I really like computers.
Instead of you pouring into thethings that your innate interest
and the things you love and thethings that's calling you, you
go, whoa, whoa, whoa.
I first gotta hit the program.
I gotta, I gotta, right?
I gotta, I gotta put some energytowards hitting the program of
the identity that I was given.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
Yeah.
And I think, yeah, I agree.
Speaker (40:11):
So many women sometimes get caught up in that, right?
Yeah.
Especially after you have ababy.
When once you become a mother,whoa, whoa.
Here's a new program.
Mm-hmm.
You know, it's like, yeah.
I always go, who wrote theserules?
Who said that?
Man.
A man who wrote it benefits fromit.
(40:32):
Who said this?
It's like soon as you become amom, and I don't know, it just
comes from the ecosystem oflike, here's the pamphlet,
here's the program now.
Mm-hmm.
This is who you are.
Your identity is mother, andbecause your MO identity is now
mother, this is what you shouldbe doing and this is who you
should be.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
And I think you should also give yourself
permission to change youridentity in terms of like what
you.
Perceive yourself to be and, andeveryone evolves.
Yes.
You know, and that is fine andgive yourself permission, but I
think it's just, it's growth,right?
Your identity and how you walkaround in your twenties changes
very much in your thirties.
I'm now creeping, knocking on 40and mm-hmm.
(41:12):
It's just, I mean, just in adifferent place.
I'm in a very different placeand I'm just enjoying the
journey.
Speaker (41:17):
To be honest, and that I think is the best part, right,
is to enjoy the journey of youridentity.
I think that is a blessed placefor us to wrap because who you
are is who you want to become,and it's an ever changing flow,
right?
We are evolving, we're growing,and give yourself grace, because
(41:40):
sometimes in that growthprocess, there can be things
that you can then account asregression.
Yeah, right.
Yeah.
But maybe it's not regression.
Maybe it's actually you goingback to what you should have
been doing this entire time.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
Yeah, I completely
Speaker (41:56):
agree.
Joe, thank you so much for thisconversation.
Thank you.
This is amazing.
I really enjoyed it.
I always say, this is why I lovethis podcast so much, because
sharing our experiences and howwe come to identify identity,
there's every single personwatching this, listening to this
podcast can recall the momentthat they said, who am I really?
(42:19):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
How that has changed so much towho they are today, as well as
who they wanna be tomorrow.
And it's okay to be on thatjourney, but above all, make
time to be well.
Can I agree more?
Oh, Joe, thank you so much.
Before we let you go, tell thepeople where to find you.
(42:40):
'cause you know, Joe's a big,big star out here in these
streets.
I just want y'all to know thatlike we don't have no thinking
thanking, don't, don't do allthat.
We don't have no thinking,thanking people on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Um, I'm Rey.
It's Who is Joe Long.
On everything.
Yes.
So yeah.
Who is
Speaker (42:57):
J-O-W-O-N-G?
Awesome.
And follow Joe on all platforms.
And thank you so much forlistening and watching this
episode.
Thank you.
Of how do you divine identity?
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