September 24, 2025 ā¢ 45 mins
In this episode of 'How Do You Divine,' we sit down with Urmi, a remarkable individual who has redefined the meaning of 'transformative' in her life. From starting as a corporate professional to becoming an author, podcaster, and more. Urmi shares her journey of transformation. She discusses her background, the fear of stepping out of her comfort zone, her accomplishments in finance, and the beauty of embracing diversity. Discover how Urmi's definition of success has evolved and how she navigates through the challenges of balancing her traditional upbringing with her creative pursuits. Learn valuable insights on personal growth, cultural preservation, and the significance of opening up to new experiences.
Thank you for listening and for adding new dimensions to your definitions. Keep growing, keep exploring, and keep defining life on your terms.
š Explore the new website www.howdoyoudivine.com
š² Follow us on social media
- IG: / howdoyoudivine
- Facebook:howdoyoudivine
- Youtube: / @howdoyoudivine
Meet Our Founder & Host šļø
Sanika is a storyteller, vibe architect, and crowd igniterāpassionate about self-discovery, culture, and the power of words. With a background in technology and marketing communications, sheās built a platform rooted in authenticity and resonance. Whether commanding the stage or leading deep conversations, Sanika doesnāt just hold spaceāshe transforms it. Her work inspires growth, challenges perspectives, and amplifies the voices that need to be heard most
As the host of How Do You Divine?, she invites listeners to redefine meaning, embrace transformation, and navigate lifeāone word at a time. Her mi...
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sanika (00:00):
Welcome to this episode of How Do You Divine, where we
define the words that drive ourlives one word at a time.
And today we are here with oldme sign to explore how she has
come to define the wordtransformative.
Omi, thank you so much for beinghere.
(00:21):
absolutely.
I was so happy when you reachedout and wanted to be a part of
the podcast and really shareyour journey with our audience.
We're gonna talk about howyou've defined transformative
throughout your journey, but asan author and fellow podcaster
as well as a corporate girl, Ijust wanted to start with.
(00:41):
How has your journey totransform When did it become a
moment for you where you said, Ican do more, I can be more than
a corporate girl.
I can be more than an author.
And what drew you to in thesevarious spaces?
Urmi (01:00):
Yes.
I would about five to six yearsago I had a little bit of time
in my hands and I was like, Iwanna do all of these things,
but I don't know where to start.
And so it all started by taking.
Literally little, little steps,baby steps.
And little by little I startedto follow my passion.
(01:22):
I started to follow mycuriosity, my intuition, and I
started to do little things.
And that's how I was literallyplanting my seeds what
happening.
I started to do all thesedifferent things such as, you
know, creating a blog, doinginterviews on YouTube, being on
podcast shows, my own, um, myown book and then what happiness
(01:42):
now that.
years have passed, or five yearshave passed.
When I look back at it, I amlike, damn, there's, there's
been so much transformation inme.
Like I can see my older self andthe person that I am right now
and compare them, and I can seethere was an evolution in me.
Like I became much more.
(02:03):
Confident I was able to build myown personal brand.
I can also see that peopleperceive me in a different
manner as well.
Like people come up to me andthey're like, oh, we really like
this version of yourself.
Like, we see a much, um, youknow, a much more.
Um, knowledgeable person, a muchmore confident person, and
that's how I realized how much Ihave transformed myself.
(02:25):
And I didn't think about it, butwhen I look back and I see how
far I've come, transformation
Sanika (02:31):
And how did it feel during those times?
Right.
As someone who exists incorporate spaces myself, were,
was there any fear when youstarted to transform and kind of
open up yourself a little bitmore into your creativity?
I.
Urmi (02:49):
failing, fear of judgment, what happened is I was like, you
know what?
If I don't try, I will neverknow.
And so I didn't like having thatunknown.
I wanted to answer that, uh,unknown factor.
I wanted to, you know, make thatquestion mark, uh, an answer.
So I.
was like, I'm still gonna gowith it.
And lemme tell you this, it was,it's hard at the beginning.
(03:12):
It's hard, like when you arebeing yourself, being vulnerable
in front of people, especiallythrough storytelling, writing
telling your stories through apodcast, you always feel it's
challenging because you're.
Showing a different side ofyourself to the world, and
you're also showing yourself outthere
Sanika (03:31):
Yeah.
Urmi (03:31):
to people that do not know you.
But then I realized how was ableto impact people.
'cause people would come up tome and be like, oh my gosh.
I also went through the samestories.
I also go through the samestruggle.
And a lot of people, like let'ssay for instance, when it comes
to personal branding, peoplewere like, how did you do it?
And went
Sanika (03:50):
Yes, and you did it afraid.
I think I've talked about thison numerous podcasts that, you
have to proceed, although you'reafraid.
while afraid.
Urmi (04:03):
Yes.
Yes.
there's this quotation that I,um, that I have on my phone that
says they cave you.
Fear to enter, seek thetreasure, uh, holds the treasure
you
Sanika (04:16):
Mm.
Urmi (04:17):
And so that's how I was like, I push myself.
I also read the book about fearand basically it was saying how
much we are afraid of differentthings, but what sometimes we
need to see fear as our friend.
We have to see it as our.
Allies.
So every time we are afraid ofsomething, just have to see this
as a positive thing.
We need that.
(04:37):
Our fear is telling you to gofor it.
So that's how I like shifted alittle bit the way I think about
fear.
Every time I'm fearful, I always
Sanika (04:44):
Yes.
I love that.
So bring us back a little bit.
Tell me about your upbringing,where you originally.
From, to give the audience likea full spectrum of all of my
guests, because I think often inthese conversations about
elevation and success andpursuing your dreams and goals,
there is this pretense that youneed to have come from wealth or
(05:06):
have opportunities that you'relike, you know what I mean?
It's, I always feel like it's arange.
Right.
It's either, we are fortunateenough to be birthed into,,
circumstances that give us thesepredetermined privileges and
access to certain resources,right?
Or there is the other storywhere, you know, you get it out
(05:28):
the mud essentially.
You have absolutely nothing, butthere's something in the middle,
right?
There's, there there's a rangeof who we are and where we come
from.
So give us a little of where areyou originally from?
Give us.
Some of those early days.
Nice.
Urmi (05:44):
I Italian by birth and Bengali by blood.
So are from Bangladesh.
So I have lived most of my lifein Italy.
I lived in different parts ofItaly.
I was born in Sicily, moved tothe north, went to UK for a
year, came back to uh, to Milan,and then I came to Montreal and
my family moved to.
(06:06):
Italy from Bangladesh rightafter they got married.
So they are basically like atypical immigrant family who
moves to a different country forbetter future, better
opportunities.
And I come from a very modest,uh, family.
Like my parents were notentrepreneurs or business owners
or anything of that sort.
And I would say that as, um.
(06:30):
As someone who has parents whoare immigrants, they really put
a lot of on their kids.
Like they just wanted their kidsto basically build a better
future, get a good education,and so forth.
And of course, they always.
Inspired me to have a good joband, you know, live well, live
comfortably.
(06:50):
But no one ever told me aboutthese other things that I do
right now
Sanika (06:54):
Yes.
Urmi (06:54):
life.
You know, like writing a book,having a podcast, and so forth.
These that I have done out of myown curiosity, and honestly,
this is another thing about theculture that I come from the
South Asian culture, is that wedon't really celebrate people
bringing.
Creative or being artistsbecause, you know, there is this
(07:16):
stigma behind that.
It's not a stable job.
Why would you do that?
You know?
But I, on a, like, I do have apassion for my job or the
day-to-day job that I do, whichis in finance.
So in that sense, I would say myparents were like lucky, but.
don't think it would've beenokay if I was just strictly a
business owner or anentrepreneur because it's just
not seen as a positive thing.
(07:37):
And in the South Asian culture,there are only three career
path, whether, uh, you can be,um, an engineer, a doctor, or
Sanika (07:46):
a lawyer.
Ah,
Urmi (07:47):
a lawyer.
I
Sanika (07:48):
so funny you're saying that, and I am, I'm laughing and
smiling inside because it's verysimilar to the Caribbean
culture, right, and that's why Isaid that.
But it's part of why I love thispodcast, honestly, is because it
just shows us that we come fromdifferent regions across the
world, and all of our parentswho migrated from one country to
another, all kind of have this.
(08:09):
Same predetermined notion ofwhat success is, right?
I have friends that are fromAfrica all over the continent,
and their parents who migratedeither to the States or to
Canada or to Europe, they toohave that They've.
Preached that sense of successis you must be a doctor, a
lawyer, or an engineer.
(08:31):
Right?
And it's, it makes me laughsometimes because it makes me
wonder, what movie did they allwatch that was translated across
all languages?
Because they all got the memo.
They all bought into it and theyall loved it.
But I think you make an amazingpoint about the fact that.
Being a creative or a creator isnot seen as a fruitful career,
(08:55):
mainly because of thesustainability aspect and the
pursuit of constantly likeselling yourself and winning
opportunities and things likethat, right?
So this reminds me ofconversations I have with like
my grandparents and my parents,where I look at it from a lens
of love and understanding,right?
Because they want their childrento have stability, you know, and
(09:19):
they want them to be stable andsafe.
So that's where that comes from.
Just understanding that theunderbelly of the, Hey, hey,
hey, don't be a creative, don'tbe an entrepreneur.
Don't do that.
Comes from the place of we, Iwant you to have a stable
lifestyle.
And from what I know, in orderto have those things, you need
to be a doctor.
(09:39):
A lawyer or an engineer stick toa company and you know you'll
have that life.
But I feel like the economy hastaught us that there is no
promise in any degree.
Or any industry, right?
There is no guarantee for ahappy life, right?
Or a sustainable life.
Migrating to any country and Ineed to buy this dream.
(10:00):
I need to pursue this goal,which is to do as my parents.
Said in order to ensure that Ihave a happy and fruitful life.
But the beauty about life isthat as we transform and we, we
have these differentreflections, we under, we start
to realize that life doesn'thave to be any one thing.
Urmi (10:27):
I agree with you and I, I find it interesting.
This whole definition of successis the, it's pretty much the
same no matter where you go.
And also think that the problemis that.
For the society's success isusually attributed to this one
thing.
You know, you have a successfulcareer, whether it is in one of
those three paths that you havementioned, sometimes it's
(10:49):
associated with having a nicecar, a nice house, you know,
having a, a family and thingslike that, but they never make
you think otherwise, you know,and I feel like I had to really.
define
Sanika (11:03):
I like to know.
Urmi (11:04):
traditional definition of success to define it also
associate success with also howmuch money you have.
You know, we think that, oh, ifyou're like crazy rich, you are
a successful person.
But sometimes even the richestperson are very unhappy.
And for me, success was moreabout doing The things that I
love.
(11:25):
pursuing my passions, eventhough if they might not be
always associated with money,you know, because I also realize
that, you know, sometime moneydoes not buy happiness does not
make you always happy.
And I think it's important tofind your own definition of
success.
And I,'cause everyone tends tofollow the standard definition
(11:47):
of
Sanika (11:47):
The one we.
Urmi (11:48):
but I think it's very.
Yes.
Sanika (11:51):
No, I completely agree with you.
When would you say,transformative moment where you
said, I'm still gonna pursuefinance, I'm going to stay in
corporate to satisfy that fearright?
About being unable to sustain mylifestyle, but I'm gonna open up
myself a little bit more.
When did you have thattransformative moment in your
(12:12):
journey?
Was it earlier on?
Urmi (12:18):
in my late, late twenties, so I feel like I, I'm pretty
late in this game.
I was literally, was in my latetwenties, so when I was, I would
say 27, 28, that's when Istarted to realize about my own
definition of success and how Iwanted to change that from what
(12:38):
was accepted in the, in thesociety, meaning that I.
Was up until a certain point.
what the traditional, um,definition of success was.
You know, like you finish schooland you start working and so
forth.
And let me tell you this, like,don't get me wrong, I do like
what I do, and I do like thefact that I am in a corporate
(13:01):
job doing finance and stuff likethat.
That's also my definition ofsuccess.
Could be accepted by thesociety, but that's also my
definition of success.
Being able to be a woman infinance, which is, I would say
my biggest accomplishment.
You know, being able to be infinance, being in a male DOD
industry, and also pursuing thisseveral designation in the
(13:21):
financial industry.
But at the same time, I waslike, I think there's much more.
Then your nine to five job.
And that's how I was like, Ineed to work on?
my five to nine time to developmyself and to find that own
definition of success.
So for me, it really happenedwhen I was
Sanika (13:38):
Mm.
And how did you lean into that?
Because was how was the bookbefore or after that?
Transform, transformativemoment.
Urmi (13:50):
after.
And I think the starting pointwas when I was talking to
another girl who also used towork in finance, but then she
launched her own business andthen I was like opening up
myself to her and I was like,you know, I wanna do all these
different things.
And she was like, you know, Ithink you have something to
offer.
So jump on the opportunity.
(14:11):
Go for it.
And so I did an interview withher on her YouTube channel.
And then after that I was like,I kind of like that, you know?
I said, I really like that.
I wanna see where
Sanika (14:22):
Yes.
Urmi (14:23):
And then she just told me like, start from something that
you'cause she was like, I thinkyou have a.
baggage of knowledge, and Ithink it's, it's time that you
share those information topeople because people can
benefit from you.
So then I created a blog, andthen I started to have a YouTube
channel.
Then I had my first book,
Sanika (14:45):
Nice.
I love that.
So tell us more about yourYouTube channel.
What was your YouTube channelname?
Because I want everyone to stayalong with the journey.
So you started with theinterview on her platform, and
then you created your ownplatform.
What did you name it?
What was the purpose behind thatplatform?
Urmi (15:05):
name.
I made it very easy, Oranbecause I realized that I don't
need to sell anything.
I am the product, I'm theproduct, I'm the service.
That's how I saw it.
And so just called it Oran.
basically I talk about differentthings, like I talk about my.
Typically I talk about mypassions, like my, my, uh, my
passion for public speaking, mypassion for language learning.
(15:28):
I provide tips and tricks topeople so they can learn from
it.
From my own experiences.
I have interviews type ofcontent with people where I talk
about, again, public speaking,how can we become a better
speaker?
I also talk about finance, but Italk more about.
Career in finance and how youcan, um, basically, basically
(15:48):
talk about the CFA, which is aprogram in the financial
industry.
It's a DIS designation that youcomplete, and it stands for,
cer, uh, stands for charterfinancial analysts.
So I talk about like, what arethe ways that you can, you know,
succeed in past exams.
So I, I basically provide tipsand everything is shared from my
own experiences.
So that's how I, that, this iswhy I called it Stein, because.
(16:11):
I'm the product.
I'm the one who's like, youknow, providing you ideas, and
I've been having that for thepast three years, I would
Sanika (16:20):
so tell me what led to the book, because your book
titled Discovering YourIdentity, A Rebirth of
Interracial Struggle.
Tell me what was the mosttransformative realization while
writing a book, while saying,
Urmi (16:38):
when I first wrote the book, I was inspired by another
author.
Who was basically talking abouther life, but as I was reading
this, I was like, oh my gosh,this feels like she's talking
about my life.
And so she told me how she wroteit.
She so published it and I waslike, I think I can do this too.
But I didn't think was happeningat that moment.
(16:59):
This is, we're talking about2022.
so what happened is I started towrite it and every day I would
sit down, write like.
a chapter, or I would do like 30minutes an hour.
But I was very consistent and Iwas very disciplined in that.
And then what happened is as Icompleted it and I self-publish
it, I was like, I did it.
And so for me it was realizationthat I did it.
(17:23):
I actually did it.
You know?
'cause I feel like it'severyone's dream to write a
book, but a lot of people don'tmake it concrete.
But for me, when I do something,I'm a go-getter.
So I like to like make ithappen.
And so the fact that I have.
it.
It was just the realization thatI am capable of doing whatever I
wanna do if I put my mind intoit.
(17:44):
And so it was just a, like amindset work.
I really had to work on my,would say, the way I think, and
had to wire my mind to thinkthat I can do it.
And so I finally managed to doit.
I, I am very proud of it,meaning that I.
I feel like not many people cansay, oh, I'm a self-published
author.
(18:04):
So for me it.
Sanika (18:05):
I wrote a book.
And it's about your experiences.
So while writing that book, didyou have any aha moments about
your journey as an immigrantliving in Italy and then moving
to Montreal?
What do you think were some keymoments that made you go, Hmm,
there's more to life than what Ithought it was.
Urmi (18:30):
to write about my childhood and my teenagehood
because basically I'm talkingabout my life in Italy and how
it was to be a tour culture kid.
Like how it was for me to growup in between two cultures, the
Bengali culture and the Italianculture, and I'm sharing my and
teenage episodes that happenedin my life and it was.
(18:52):
Interesting to see howeverything was so vivid in my
memory.
It's like, it was just like,felt like it just happened
yesterday, so I remembereverything and it felt very.
In a way, you know, I feel likeI was.
able to heal a little bit aboutmyself.
I feel like, you know, if Iwanna go back to something,
it's, I can go back to thisbook.
(19:13):
It's, it's sort of like digital
Sanika (19:15):
Yeah.
Urmi (19:16):
That's how I like to see it, because I'm talking about my
life I feel like I can see, Ican see a trend.
In the book because I start, youknow, I talk about my life as I
Was a kid.
I, until I moved to Montreal.
And when I moved to Montreal, Ifeel like there was this whole
transformation of me becoming amuch more confident woman and so
(19:38):
forth.
And even there, I can see thisshift, a revolutionary shift in,
in myself.
So for me it was verytherapeutic.
It was very, um.
I am very, I wanna say I wasvery present in the moment as I
was writing and I was present.
I feel like all the memorieswere coming about
Sanika (19:57):
Was there a large Bangladesh community in Italy?
Urmi (20:05):
yes and no.
Meaning that when my dad moved,he always says he was one of the
first one.
And I do think he first one.
'cause he moved in the uh,nineties and he didn't know
anyone.
He had no connection.
There were not Bengali people.
He had to learn the language.
He had to learn a lot of thingsand.
I was born afterwards.
(20:26):
So he always says, you are thefirst BOGO girl to be born in
Italy.
I was like, okay, fine.
I'll take that.
And I think it's true becausethere is no one older than me in
the community that I know.
And then what happened is he wasthe first one who, who moved,
and little by little otherpeople started to come, so he
brought his brother.
Then other people came in, andso in Sicily, the first I would
say community was.
(20:47):
Was was created and then theyall spread.
So they went to Rome, they wentto Milan, they all went to other
parts of Italy.
And what happened is in around2010, a lot of people moved to
uk.
So the community that was builtin Italy moved to uk, but they
knew immigrants from Bangladeshcame in.
So now there is.
(21:07):
A big community of Bengalipeople.
They all moved to Italy for somereasons.
I don't know why.
Um,
Sanika (21:13):
Nice.
And how was that learning a newlanguage?
I think it's such a undervaluedskill.
For any child or human being tolive within two worlds, as I
call it, right?
You have the world that's inyour home, and then it's the
world that is outside your door.
But as an individual, you'reable to transition very
(21:35):
seamlessly for school, for yourcareer, for friendships so how
was that, being from Bangladeshin Italy learning Italian, how
was that in your younger years?
Urmi (21:50):
so because I learned Italian.
Since I went to school, youknow, like I was born in Italy,
so I went to to school, toItaly.
So I, I, there isn't much that Iwould remember, but I can tell
you this.
One thing about my childhood wasthat at home we used to speak
Bengali.
(22:10):
used to speak Bengali into acertain moment because then I
brought Italian at home, so assoon as I learned how to speak
Italian, I was just talking inItalian with my sister.
So at home we were speaking twolanguages, Italian and Bengali.
So me, it was me with my sisterin Italian, and then sometimes I
would speak.
Um, Italian, like I would throwsome Italian words with my
(22:33):
parents when I would speak withmy parents, and my parents
taught me how to speak Bengali.
However, I do regret that I donot know how to write or read in
Bengali because I feel like it'slike.
I feel like I'm missing
Sanika (22:46):
Yeah.
Urmi (22:47):
there.
Like there, I feel like there'sa void because I, I can't
complete, like, I can't, I can'tknow.
only know how to speak it.
And then there's, there areother languages that I know,
like Italian and French,English, which I know how to
read and write and everything.
But I do not know to read andwrite in my parents' language,
which is something that I do
Sanika (23:06):
Yeah.
Urmi (23:06):
a way.
I just know how to
Sanika (23:08):
Now take us from, growing to school in Italy,
speaking Bengali at home, andthen you move to Montreal,
Canada.
I.
Urmi (23:20):
was quite an adventure I.
to say.
Um, because basically in, ItalyI only saw
Sanika (23:32):
Mm-hmm.
Urmi (23:34):
I just saw Italian people.
I did not see even people fromother countries.
And then when I moved toMontreal, I see all these people
with like different likeethnicity, and it was so.
I don't know.
I, I felt like I was Alice inWonderland because everything
was new to me.
(23:54):
It was literally new to me.
And then when I started to go touniversity, I had all these
friends from different parts ofthe world, which I did not have
in Italy.
Like in, I only had Italianfriends, strictly Italian
friends.
I only knew that world.
Whereas in Montreal, I feel likeI was exposed to people from
India, from China, from SouthKorea, Africa, other parts of
(24:15):
Europe.
So for me it was.
A learning opportunity because Ifeel like I'm getting exposed to
these other countries that existin the world that I didn't know
too much about.
And so it was beautiful becauseI also felt like I was able to
connect with a lot of thesepeople, especially because they
also had multiple, likebackgrounds, multiple cultural
(24:36):
backgrounds, you know?
So I feel like I was able toconnect better.
I feel like people wereunderstanding each other better,
whereas, and Italy wasdifferent, you know, I, I just
had one, one
Sanika (24:45):
It's funny you say that 'cause it reminds me of why I
love New York so much.
Right.
So I was raised in Brooklyn, NewYork, and I tell people all the
time, when I hear people saythings like, oh, I've never met
someone from China or never metsomeone from Japan or India and
stuff like that.
It's, it's so, It's very odd.
I can't resonate with it.
Because I was raised inBrooklyn, New York, where New
(25:07):
York is truly a melting pot.
One of my first friends werefrom was from Italy.
Her name was Jenny.
You know what I mean?
I'm talking elementary schoolfriends, like in elementary
school, we celebrated everyholiday from Hanukkah to Chinese
New Year to Rum kapur, toMuslim, like every single
holiday.
(25:27):
D, and this is in elementaryschool, so that's the only thing
I know is to be surrounded bypeople with different
ethnicities, colors, hair types,personalities, languages.
That's all I know.
So when I hear people fromdifferent regions of the world
that's like, well, I've neverseen a black person, or I have
(25:49):
no idea about Asian culture orAfrican culture.
I'm interested, like, I'minterested in your lens.
Because I don't, it just seemsso odd to me and very while
obviously it's no one's like noone created, made it that way.
Now, as an adult, I hope peoplerealize how narrowing that view
(26:12):
is, right.
It's so limiting to only besurrounded by.
And your ethnicity or yourculture versus being immersed in
all of the different culturesaround the world is so
beautiful.
If I'm honest with you, it wasmost surprising to me in
corporate.
(26:33):
That was the first time for me.
I met people in real life thatdidn't know anything about a
multicultural world.
Was in corporate.
Corporate.
'cause again, I went, I wasraised here in New York, so from
elementary school all the way upto college, I was surrounded by
(26:53):
everybody like, you know what Imean?
Swedish, Poland, like.
When I say everybody, everyone,there isn't a cuisine I haven't
tried.
There isn't a culture I haven'tlearned about through a friend
or a friend's friend.
So when I went into corporateand, you know, certain spaces
(27:14):
only have a specific group ofpeople, and most often was like
the only woman or the,especially the only black woman
in the room.
I wasn't intimidated at all.
I actually found it quiteinteresting.
It just, I sat there like asponge and was like, where are
you from?
Where are you from?
What did you come from?
How did you get here?
And it made me realize that alot of people come to New York
(27:38):
diversity.
Urmi (27:42):
diverse New York.
We spoke about this, uh, likethe first time.
I love.
Love New York because I reallyfeel like you have a taste of
everything.
Everything that is there in theworld.
You have it in New York and it'sdone really well.
Like New York does reallycelebrate diversity.
which is so beautiful.
Um,'cause I went a couple oftimes to New York and I feel
(28:03):
like you never get disappointedeven when you are eating at
different restaurants, tryingdifferent cuisines.
I think we tried an Afghanirestaurant and I felt like it
was very.
Very authentic and I, and I lovethat.
I love how New York brings
Sanika (28:14):
I agree.
When my husband and I hadchildren we had to raise our
children here in New Yorkbecause Living in New York
forces you to have a open mindabout everything, about people,
about topics, about politics,about anything.
And it is not something that isconscious, right?
(28:36):
Like everyone's not walkingaround like, oh, I'm a New
Yorker and I'm open-minded, but.
It is subconscious.
Whereas as New Yorkers, we leaveour house every single day and
we have no idea what we gonnasee.
It is going, it might be crazy,it might be a little wild it,
but we're open to the range ofwhat this city has to offer.
(28:58):
And something about that I thinkcreates a foundation of humility
and acceptance amongst people.
Urmi (29:09):
new York, which makes it special.
I, I, I, I agree with you.
Like when you go out, you,you're not sure what you're
gonna see.
And I love how they have likedifferent areas for like
different communities.
Um, and I think I watched thisvideo.
from a couple of, uh, weeks agoabout this Indian couple getting
(29:31):
married and this was happeningin New York and I think they
were doing their celebrationlike, you know, I don't know if
you're familiar with this, butthey have one ceremony where
they have to like enter dancingand they were doing that, I
think near the financialdistrict.
And I was like, this is soincredible.
And, and there is this othergirl that I.
Paul, who is from India, shemoved to study in New York and
(29:52):
she was saying how they werelike teaching Bollywood classes
and, or they were doing like aBollywood class or something in
her university.
And I was like, this is what weshould be doing.
We should be celebratingdiversity.
And going back to your pointabout your own, uh, childhood.
When I grew up, we were notcelebrating even at school.
Like we were not celebratingdifferent, um.
(30:14):
Festivity, like I didn't knowwhat the new lunar year was.
Um, I didn't know about allthese different things and I
grew up in a country which waspredominantly very Catholic.
So I had a cruciferous in myclassroom.
We just celebrated, you know,Christmas, Easter, like, like
typical things that they do.
Yeah.
(30:35):
But for.
For the Italian community livingthere.
For them, the fact that I wasdifferent was a learning
opportunity.
They were always super curiousabout me because we celebrate
know, we do Ramadan and
Sanika (30:47):
Yeah.
Urmi (30:48):
that.
So for them it was a learningopportunity because they were
like, oh my gosh, there's fromus.
Let's get to know her.
And, and when I was going toschool, I was the only one who
was not looking like the rest.
Like there were not that manyimmigrant people.
I was
Sanika (31:03):
Yeah, I know, and that can be really isolating.
This reminds me of a story when,again, when I was in corporate,
um, this woman I used to workwith, her name was Victoria, and
she was from Russia, and shemigrated to New York from Russia
with her husband and herchildren were really small at
the time, and they had what Iwould think is a regular, you
(31:26):
know.
Elementary school day show.
Right, because that's in NewYork.
Your children, they're gonna goon school trips.
They're gonna have shows,they're, it's going to be a full
experience.
I remember she went to theschool and came into the office
after the show and she was a bitemotional, so I was like,
Victoria, are you okay?
What happened?
(31:46):
Did it go well?
Did your son do well?
And she goes, it was the mostbeautiful thing I've ever seen
in my life.
She said that it was thecelebration of us, and I don't
know if they still do this, but.
The show, essentially, eachchild has to go up on stage and
with your native flag, and yougo up on stage and you say, I am
(32:11):
great because I am from Russia.
And in Russia we do X, Y, and Z.
And then the next person comesup.
I'm great'cause I'm from Ghanaand in Ghana and then they all
come together and they sing asong about how beautiful our
class is because we have thewhole world in one space..
And she was so emotional aboutit.
(32:33):
'cause she said in Russia,there's nothing like this.
We don't, there's no difference.
There's no celebrating differentcultures.
There's not even celebrating ifyou look different.
Right.
And I remember saying to her,and again, it was for me, it was
one of those transformativemoments that showed me like,
wow, I do live a privileged lifeby growing up in New York.
(32:54):
Like I didn't, you know, youdon't realize these things
because.
You live here.
Um, and I remember how moved shewas by the ceremony and she was
like, have you ever heard ofanything like this?
I was like, yes, I did itmultiple times.
You have to do it in everygrade.
Because in New York, becausepeople move so much, and your
(33:16):
zone school might not be yourzone school, you might not have
the same friends you had infirst grade, in second grade or
third grade.
So every year it is somethingthat we did.
So she was so moved by it and.
So surprised that this wassomething that was part of the
normal New York culture tocelebrate the differences of
(33:37):
every single student in the roomand celebrate the global
holidays and every religion andpractice that there was that
existed in the classroom.
Urmi (33:49):
it I agree with you.
And, um, well, this is one thingI noticed about Canada.
Like I, I don't know now how itworks in school, but one thing
that happens in, uh, in thesummer, especially Montreal,
which is so multicultural aswell, is that they have.
Festivals.
So for instance, couple of weeksago it was the Italian festival
(34:11):
and then they have the Asianfestival.
So basically they celebrate eachcommunity doing festivals, food
festivals, or doing you know,activities.
And I realized that evenMontreal is also very much like
New York.
Like there's so much around thecity and people celebrate each
community and that's verybeautiful because you know you
(34:34):
are.
Not forcing people to becomelike you.
You're just celebrating wherethey come from and you want them
to celebrate that because thenyou get to learn a little bit
about the other culture.
So I also noticed that they dothat in Montreal during like
festivals in the summer.
And it's very, it's very nice'cause you get to like,
Sanika (34:56):
Yes.
Urmi (34:57):
foods.
You get to see the differentthings.
They, they, they, uh, celebrate.
It's
Sanika (35:01):
And that is the beauty of a defined definition of being
transformative, right?
Because I think often we, we,the perception is that in order
to be transformed or transformedinto a different phase and
season in your life, you need toleave behind who you are.
You need to leave behind yourown religion, your own beliefs,
(35:24):
your own culture, and that's notreally what being amongst a
transformative group of peopleis.
It's not what it means to betransformative in your life.
Right.
It means evolve and add ondifferent layers of who you are
by surrounding yourself bydifferent, with different
(35:44):
people.
Open yourself up to newopportunities.
Right?
You knew like we, like many ofour immigrant parents taught us,
we were told that the only waysto success and happiness was
lawyer, doctor, engineer, butwe.
Took those foundations and addeda transformative layer to it.
(36:05):
We opened ourself up to whatcreativity and happiness can
bring us, and we transformed itinto the way we live now, which
is not foregoing right.
What they've taught us becauseit's, they, they taught us only
what they knew, it'stransforming that definition.
Urmi (36:24):
Yeah.
them at the same time, you know,like they only knew that
Sanika (36:30):
Yes.
Urmi (36:30):
and they taught us this one thing and they want us to
carry forward But I think it'sabout embracing the different
aspect of life and transformingthem.
I think also going back to thiswhole, you know, about diversity
and celebrating diversity, somecommunities are not open to
that.
You know, they just wannapreserve, their own culture,
(36:53):
their own traditions.
But I think it's about reallyembracing that, bringing a
little bit from different worldsand creating another, merging
them and creating a different,fusion of it.
And also that's part of liketransformation and evolution.
Sanika (37:07):
I agree.
What's most important is peopleto understand.
That collaboration does not killpreservation.
It actually amplifiespreservation.
It actually makes you preserveculture a little deeper and
longer.
So it's really, as we weretalking about earlier, stepping
into that fear.
And not trying to step away fromit, because the fear is that if
(37:31):
I open up my culture and I tellthem about my traditions and I
tell them about Bangladesh,they're going to judge it.
They're gonna try to change it.
They're gonna try to move it.
What you don't realize is.
That's the fear that's holdingus back, right?
If I could have said that I'mcoming on this podcast and I'm
just gonna be corporate sonika,I'm not gonna talk about my
Jamaican roots.
I'm not gonna talk about being amom in, in my mind to preserve
(37:56):
the perception of what peoplehave of me, right?
To compartmentalize who I am.
But all that is limitingpeople's opportunity to know who
I am in my
Urmi (38:08):
agree with you.
And you showing up to the worldlike your truest self know, you
being honest to yourself, youknow, you don't wanna like try
to fit in, you don't wanna playa role.
know, you don't wanna perform arole because you think about
this other person's perceptionof what they will think.
'cause then you're lying toyourself, you know?
And I think if you really standfor yourself, you should be
(38:33):
telling your story.
You should be telling about yourroots.
You should be telling about thelanguage that you speak.
What should eat, how you do it.
'cause I used to be a little bitlike that to that.
I used to walk away and not.
Share everything about culture.
So one thing I can, like, I can,I can give you a very simple
example.
Like in the Bengali culture, weeat out with our hands.
(38:56):
We'd eat with our hands.
And I remember one day, one ofmy friends making a comment and
saying, oh my gosh, did you seethese people eat with their
hands?
And so I never told her that wealso do that, but now that I am
much older, I think about it andbe like, why didn't I, why did I
not tell her this?
I want her to be educated aboutthis.
And then guess what?
(39:16):
Other cultures to eat with theirhands.
It's
Sanika (39:18):
Yes.
Urmi (39:19):
you know?
Like you have to be open aboutit.
to.
Not shy.
Shy away from it.
I try not to walk away.
Walk away from it.
'cause I wanna be honest aboutmy identity, about myself, about
my tradition, my culture, and Idon't wanna lie about it to
other people because I'm worriedabout what they would think.
(39:41):
I'm not responsible aboutpeople's opinions.
Sanika (39:43):
You definitely are not, and also understanding that in
order for us to want a moreunified.
Community, right?
Amongst the world, across theglobe.
We have to be willing totransform how we think today for
tomorrow because it's solimiting for you to feel like,
oh, because someone eats withtheir hands, they, ugh.
(40:06):
That is so atrocious.
You don't even know how far thatculture and that lineage come
from and instead of you beingmore curious.
Right.
And the beauty of thisconversation is encouraging
people to lean into their fears.
About being transformed in howyou see people and how you see
(40:27):
your life and what it means tohave a transformative moment and
find those transformativemoments in your everyday life.
If, if.
If you're Spanish and all you dois eat Spanish food, I'm, I'm,
I'm going to ask you tomorrow togo find an African place to eat.
Find a Caribbean place to eat.
You know, open yourself up todifferent cultures, because
(40:49):
preservation comes withcollaboration.
It is the only way.
Urmi (40:57):
There is self transformation, but there is
also transforming other people,which is a little bit what you
said.
You know, like when you tellthis other friend, oh, go and
try this other thing.
You're also transforming.
Another person.
You're also helping the otherperson to in new potentials and
learning about different thingsand discovering different
(41:19):
things.
'cause otherwise we're all gonnabe in our bubble, you know?
And I always say you have to becomfortable with uncomfortable.
That's also part of the
Sanika (41:27):
Yes, you definitely do.
And not leaning away from it.
Because often we are socomfortable in our own culture,
in our own spaces, in our ownfamily, in our own, you know,
the predictability of it all.
Right, so we don't, no one wantsto be rejected or feel like, I
don't know how to eat this food.
(41:47):
I don't know how to usechopsticks.
I don't know how, like youunderstand what I mean?
But it's giving yourself graceand understanding that everyone
doesn't know girl at one point.
We all are sitting there tryingto figure out how to use these
chopsticks.
At some point.
We're all trying to get the FooFu and put it like it's.
It's such an amazing experienceto me to be a child in these
(42:11):
situations.
Urmi (42:14):
agree Lovely.
Yeah.
Sanika (42:18):
Listen, Rumi, thank you so much for being a part of the
podcast and joining me on thisconversation, and I would love
for the audience to just stayconnected with you.
So tell us more about yourpodcast and where we can find
you.
Urmi (42:35):
Stories Beyond Borders Podcast.
It's available on Spotify andApple Podcasts, and there's also
an Instagram page and if thepeople wanna connect, connect
with with me in other platforms,I have a LinkedIn profile called
ign, my YouTube channel calledAl Sign, and if people wanna get
my book, it's available on
Sanika (42:55):
Awesome.
Thank you so much for thisconversation, and this is, how
do you define transformative?
Welcome to this episode of How Do You Divine, where we
define the words that drive ourlives one word at a time.
And today we are here with oldme sign to explore how she has
come to define the wordtransformative.
Omi, thank you so much for beinghere.
(00:21):
absolutely.
I was so happy when you reachedout and wanted to be a part of
the podcast and really shareyour journey with our audience.
We're gonna talk about howyou've defined transformative
throughout your journey, but asan author and fellow podcaster
as well as a corporate girl, Ijust wanted to start with.
(00:41):
How has your journey totransform When did it become a
moment for you where you said, Ican do more, I can be more than
a corporate girl.
I can be more than an author.
And what drew you to in thesevarious spaces?
Urmi (01:00):
Yes.
I would about five to six yearsago I had a little bit of time
in my hands and I was like, Iwanna do all of these things,
but I don't know where to start.
And so it all started by taking.
Literally little, little steps,baby steps.
And little by little I startedto follow my passion.
(01:22):
I started to follow mycuriosity, my intuition, and I
started to do little things.
And that's how I was literallyplanting my seeds what
happening.
I started to do all thesedifferent things such as, you
know, creating a blog, doinginterviews on YouTube, being on
podcast shows, my own, um, myown book and then what happiness
(01:42):
now that.
years have passed, or five yearshave passed.
When I look back at it, I amlike, damn, there's, there's
been so much transformation inme.
Like I can see my older self andthe person that I am right now
and compare them, and I can seethere was an evolution in me.
Like I became much more.
(02:03):
Confident I was able to build myown personal brand.
I can also see that peopleperceive me in a different
manner as well.
Like people come up to me andthey're like, oh, we really like
this version of yourself.
Like, we see a much, um, youknow, a much more.
Um, knowledgeable person, a muchmore confident person, and
that's how I realized how much Ihave transformed myself.
(02:25):
And I didn't think about it, butwhen I look back and I see how
far I've come, transformation
Sanika (02:31):
And how did it feel during those times?
Right.
As someone who exists incorporate spaces myself, were,
was there any fear when youstarted to transform and kind of
open up yourself a little bitmore into your creativity?
I.
Urmi (02:49):
failing, fear of judgment, what happened is I was like, you
know what?
If I don't try, I will neverknow.
And so I didn't like having thatunknown.
I wanted to answer that, uh,unknown factor.
I wanted to, you know, make thatquestion mark, uh, an answer.
So I.
was like, I'm still gonna gowith it.
And lemme tell you this, it was,it's hard at the beginning.
(03:12):
It's hard, like when you arebeing yourself, being vulnerable
in front of people, especiallythrough storytelling, writing
telling your stories through apodcast, you always feel it's
challenging because you're.
Showing a different side ofyourself to the world, and
you're also showing yourself outthere
Sanika (03:31):
Yeah.
Urmi (03:31):
to people that do not know you.
But then I realized how was ableto impact people.
'cause people would come up tome and be like, oh my gosh.
I also went through the samestories.
I also go through the samestruggle.
And a lot of people, like let'ssay for instance, when it comes
to personal branding, peoplewere like, how did you do it?
And went
Sanika (03:50):
Yes, and you did it afraid.
I think I've talked about thison numerous podcasts that, you
have to proceed, although you'reafraid.
while afraid.
Urmi (04:03):
Yes.
Yes.
there's this quotation that I,um, that I have on my phone that
says they cave you.
Fear to enter, seek thetreasure, uh, holds the treasure
you
Sanika (04:16):
Mm.
Urmi (04:17):
And so that's how I was like, I push myself.
I also read the book about fearand basically it was saying how
much we are afraid of differentthings, but what sometimes we
need to see fear as our friend.
We have to see it as our.
Allies.
So every time we are afraid ofsomething, just have to see this
as a positive thing.
We need that.
(04:37):
Our fear is telling you to gofor it.
So that's how I like shifted alittle bit the way I think about
fear.
Every time I'm fearful, I always
Sanika (04:44):
Yes.
I love that.
So bring us back a little bit.
Tell me about your upbringing,where you originally.
From, to give the audience likea full spectrum of all of my
guests, because I think often inthese conversations about
elevation and success andpursuing your dreams and goals,
there is this pretense that youneed to have come from wealth or
(05:06):
have opportunities that you'relike, you know what I mean?
It's, I always feel like it's arange.
Right.
It's either, we are fortunateenough to be birthed into,,
circumstances that give us thesepredetermined privileges and
access to certain resources,right?
Or there is the other storywhere, you know, you get it out
(05:28):
the mud essentially.
You have absolutely nothing, butthere's something in the middle,
right?
There's, there there's a rangeof who we are and where we come
from.
So give us a little of where areyou originally from?
Give us.
Some of those early days.
Nice.
Urmi (05:44):
I Italian by birth and Bengali by blood.
So are from Bangladesh.
So I have lived most of my lifein Italy.
I lived in different parts ofItaly.
I was born in Sicily, moved tothe north, went to UK for a
year, came back to uh, to Milan,and then I came to Montreal and
my family moved to.
(06:06):
Italy from Bangladesh rightafter they got married.
So they are basically like atypical immigrant family who
moves to a different country forbetter future, better
opportunities.
And I come from a very modest,uh, family.
Like my parents were notentrepreneurs or business owners
or anything of that sort.
And I would say that as, um.
(06:30):
As someone who has parents whoare immigrants, they really put
a lot of on their kids.
Like they just wanted their kidsto basically build a better
future, get a good education,and so forth.
And of course, they always.
Inspired me to have a good joband, you know, live well, live
comfortably.
(06:50):
But no one ever told me aboutthese other things that I do
right now
Sanika (06:54):
Yes.
Urmi (06:54):
life.
You know, like writing a book,having a podcast, and so forth.
These that I have done out of myown curiosity, and honestly,
this is another thing about theculture that I come from the
South Asian culture, is that wedon't really celebrate people
bringing.
Creative or being artistsbecause, you know, there is this
(07:16):
stigma behind that.
It's not a stable job.
Why would you do that?
You know?
But I, on a, like, I do have apassion for my job or the
day-to-day job that I do, whichis in finance.
So in that sense, I would say myparents were like lucky, but.
don't think it would've beenokay if I was just strictly a
business owner or anentrepreneur because it's just
not seen as a positive thing.
(07:37):
And in the South Asian culture,there are only three career
path, whether, uh, you can be,um, an engineer, a doctor, or
Sanika (07:46):
a lawyer.
Ah,
Urmi (07:47):
a lawyer.
I
Sanika (07:48):
so funny you're saying that, and I am, I'm laughing and
smiling inside because it's verysimilar to the Caribbean
culture, right, and that's why Isaid that.
But it's part of why I love thispodcast, honestly, is because it
just shows us that we come fromdifferent regions across the
world, and all of our parentswho migrated from one country to
another, all kind of have this.
(08:09):
Same predetermined notion ofwhat success is, right?
I have friends that are fromAfrica all over the continent,
and their parents who migratedeither to the States or to
Canada or to Europe, they toohave that They've.
Preached that sense of successis you must be a doctor, a
lawyer, or an engineer.
(08:31):
Right?
And it's, it makes me laughsometimes because it makes me
wonder, what movie did they allwatch that was translated across
all languages?
Because they all got the memo.
They all bought into it and theyall loved it.
But I think you make an amazingpoint about the fact that.
Being a creative or a creator isnot seen as a fruitful career,
(08:55):
mainly because of thesustainability aspect and the
pursuit of constantly likeselling yourself and winning
opportunities and things likethat, right?
So this reminds me ofconversations I have with like
my grandparents and my parents,where I look at it from a lens
of love and understanding,right?
Because they want their childrento have stability, you know, and
(09:19):
they want them to be stable andsafe.
So that's where that comes from.
Just understanding that theunderbelly of the, Hey, hey,
hey, don't be a creative, don'tbe an entrepreneur.
Don't do that.
Comes from the place of we, Iwant you to have a stable
lifestyle.
And from what I know, in orderto have those things, you need
to be a doctor.
(09:39):
A lawyer or an engineer stick toa company and you know you'll
have that life.
But I feel like the economy hastaught us that there is no
promise in any degree.
Or any industry, right?
There is no guarantee for ahappy life, right?
Or a sustainable life.
Migrating to any country and Ineed to buy this dream.
(10:00):
I need to pursue this goal,which is to do as my parents.
Said in order to ensure that Ihave a happy and fruitful life.
But the beauty about life isthat as we transform and we, we
have these differentreflections, we under, we start
to realize that life doesn'thave to be any one thing.
Urmi (10:27):
I agree with you and I, I find it interesting.
This whole definition of successis the, it's pretty much the
same no matter where you go.
And also think that the problemis that.
For the society's success isusually attributed to this one
thing.
You know, you have a successfulcareer, whether it is in one of
those three paths that you havementioned, sometimes it's
(10:49):
associated with having a nicecar, a nice house, you know,
having a, a family and thingslike that, but they never make
you think otherwise, you know,and I feel like I had to really.
define
Sanika (11:03):
I like to know.
Urmi (11:04):
traditional definition of success to define it also
associate success with also howmuch money you have.
You know, we think that, oh, ifyou're like crazy rich, you are
a successful person.
But sometimes even the richestperson are very unhappy.
And for me, success was moreabout doing The things that I
love.
(11:25):
pursuing my passions, eventhough if they might not be
always associated with money,you know, because I also realize
that, you know, sometime moneydoes not buy happiness does not
make you always happy.
And I think it's important tofind your own definition of
success.
And I,'cause everyone tends tofollow the standard definition
(11:47):
of
Sanika (11:47):
The one we.
Urmi (11:48):
but I think it's very.
Yes.
Sanika (11:51):
No, I completely agree with you.
When would you say,transformative moment where you
said, I'm still gonna pursuefinance, I'm going to stay in
corporate to satisfy that fearright?
About being unable to sustain mylifestyle, but I'm gonna open up
myself a little bit more.
When did you have thattransformative moment in your
(12:12):
journey?
Was it earlier on?
Urmi (12:18):
in my late, late twenties, so I feel like I, I'm pretty
late in this game.
I was literally, was in my latetwenties, so when I was, I would
say 27, 28, that's when Istarted to realize about my own
definition of success and how Iwanted to change that from what
(12:38):
was accepted in the, in thesociety, meaning that I.
Was up until a certain point.
what the traditional, um,definition of success was.
You know, like you finish schooland you start working and so
forth.
And let me tell you this, like,don't get me wrong, I do like
what I do, and I do like thefact that I am in a corporate
(13:01):
job doing finance and stuff likethat.
That's also my definition ofsuccess.
Could be accepted by thesociety, but that's also my
definition of success.
Being able to be a woman infinance, which is, I would say
my biggest accomplishment.
You know, being able to be infinance, being in a male DOD
industry, and also pursuing thisseveral designation in the
(13:21):
financial industry.
But at the same time, I waslike, I think there's much more.
Then your nine to five job.
And that's how I was like, Ineed to work on?
my five to nine time to developmyself and to find that own
definition of success.
So for me, it really happenedwhen I was
Sanika (13:38):
Mm.
And how did you lean into that?
Because was how was the bookbefore or after that?
Transform, transformativemoment.
Urmi (13:50):
after.
And I think the starting pointwas when I was talking to
another girl who also used towork in finance, but then she
launched her own business andthen I was like opening up
myself to her and I was like,you know, I wanna do all these
different things.
And she was like, you know, Ithink you have something to
offer.
So jump on the opportunity.
(14:11):
Go for it.
And so I did an interview withher on her YouTube channel.
And then after that I was like,I kind of like that, you know?
I said, I really like that.
I wanna see where
Sanika (14:22):
Yes.
Urmi (14:23):
And then she just told me like, start from something that
you'cause she was like, I thinkyou have a.
baggage of knowledge, and Ithink it's, it's time that you
share those information topeople because people can
benefit from you.
So then I created a blog, andthen I started to have a YouTube
channel.
Then I had my first book,
Sanika (14:45):
Nice.
I love that.
So tell us more about yourYouTube channel.
What was your YouTube channelname?
Because I want everyone to stayalong with the journey.
So you started with theinterview on her platform, and
then you created your ownplatform.
What did you name it?
What was the purpose behind thatplatform?
Urmi (15:05):
name.
I made it very easy, Oranbecause I realized that I don't
need to sell anything.
I am the product, I'm theproduct, I'm the service.
That's how I saw it.
And so just called it Oran.
basically I talk about differentthings, like I talk about my.
Typically I talk about mypassions, like my, my, uh, my
passion for public speaking, mypassion for language learning.
(15:28):
I provide tips and tricks topeople so they can learn from
it.
From my own experiences.
I have interviews type ofcontent with people where I talk
about, again, public speaking,how can we become a better
speaker?
I also talk about finance, but Italk more about.
Career in finance and how youcan, um, basically, basically
(15:48):
talk about the CFA, which is aprogram in the financial
industry.
It's a DIS designation that youcomplete, and it stands for,
cer, uh, stands for charterfinancial analysts.
So I talk about like, what arethe ways that you can, you know,
succeed in past exams.
So I, I basically provide tipsand everything is shared from my
own experiences.
So that's how I, that, this iswhy I called it Stein, because.
(16:11):
I'm the product.
I'm the one who's like, youknow, providing you ideas, and
I've been having that for thepast three years, I would
Sanika (16:20):
so tell me what led to the book, because your book
titled Discovering YourIdentity, A Rebirth of
Interracial Struggle.
Tell me what was the mosttransformative realization while
writing a book, while saying,
Urmi (16:38):
when I first wrote the book, I was inspired by another
author.
Who was basically talking abouther life, but as I was reading
this, I was like, oh my gosh,this feels like she's talking
about my life.
And so she told me how she wroteit.
She so published it and I waslike, I think I can do this too.
But I didn't think was happeningat that moment.
(16:59):
This is, we're talking about2022.
so what happened is I started towrite it and every day I would
sit down, write like.
a chapter, or I would do like 30minutes an hour.
But I was very consistent and Iwas very disciplined in that.
And then what happened is as Icompleted it and I self-publish
it, I was like, I did it.
And so for me it was realizationthat I did it.
(17:23):
I actually did it.
You know?
'cause I feel like it'severyone's dream to write a
book, but a lot of people don'tmake it concrete.
But for me, when I do something,I'm a go-getter.
So I like to like make ithappen.
And so the fact that I have.
it.
It was just the realization thatI am capable of doing whatever I
wanna do if I put my mind intoit.
(17:44):
And so it was just a, like amindset work.
I really had to work on my,would say, the way I think, and
had to wire my mind to thinkthat I can do it.
And so I finally managed to doit.
I, I am very proud of it,meaning that I.
I feel like not many people cansay, oh, I'm a self-published
author.
(18:04):
So for me it.
Sanika (18:05):
I wrote a book.
And it's about your experiences.
So while writing that book, didyou have any aha moments about
your journey as an immigrantliving in Italy and then moving
to Montreal?
What do you think were some keymoments that made you go, Hmm,
there's more to life than what Ithought it was.
Urmi (18:30):
to write about my childhood and my teenagehood
because basically I'm talkingabout my life in Italy and how
it was to be a tour culture kid.
Like how it was for me to growup in between two cultures, the
Bengali culture and the Italianculture, and I'm sharing my and
teenage episodes that happenedin my life and it was.
(18:52):
Interesting to see howeverything was so vivid in my
memory.
It's like, it was just like,felt like it just happened
yesterday, so I remembereverything and it felt very.
In a way, you know, I feel likeI was.
able to heal a little bit aboutmyself.
I feel like, you know, if Iwanna go back to something,
it's, I can go back to thisbook.
(19:13):
It's, it's sort of like digital
Sanika (19:15):
Yeah.
Urmi (19:16):
That's how I like to see it, because I'm talking about my
life I feel like I can see, Ican see a trend.
In the book because I start, youknow, I talk about my life as I
Was a kid.
I, until I moved to Montreal.
And when I moved to Montreal, Ifeel like there was this whole
transformation of me becoming amuch more confident woman and so
(19:38):
forth.
And even there, I can see thisshift, a revolutionary shift in,
in myself.
So for me it was verytherapeutic.
It was very, um.
I am very, I wanna say I wasvery present in the moment as I
was writing and I was present.
I feel like all the memorieswere coming about
Sanika (19:57):
Was there a large Bangladesh community in Italy?
Urmi (20:05):
yes and no.
Meaning that when my dad moved,he always says he was one of the
first one.
And I do think he first one.
'cause he moved in the uh,nineties and he didn't know
anyone.
He had no connection.
There were not Bengali people.
He had to learn the language.
He had to learn a lot of thingsand.
I was born afterwards.
(20:26):
So he always says, you are thefirst BOGO girl to be born in
Italy.
I was like, okay, fine.
I'll take that.
And I think it's true becausethere is no one older than me in
the community that I know.
And then what happened is he wasthe first one who, who moved,
and little by little otherpeople started to come, so he
brought his brother.
Then other people came in, andso in Sicily, the first I would
say community was.
(20:47):
Was was created and then theyall spread.
So they went to Rome, they wentto Milan, they all went to other
parts of Italy.
And what happened is in around2010, a lot of people moved to
uk.
So the community that was builtin Italy moved to uk, but they
knew immigrants from Bangladeshcame in.
So now there is.
(21:07):
A big community of Bengalipeople.
They all moved to Italy for somereasons.
I don't know why.
Um,
Sanika (21:13):
Nice.
And how was that learning a newlanguage?
I think it's such a undervaluedskill.
For any child or human being tolive within two worlds, as I
call it, right?
You have the world that's inyour home, and then it's the
world that is outside your door.
But as an individual, you'reable to transition very
(21:35):
seamlessly for school, for yourcareer, for friendships so how
was that, being from Bangladeshin Italy learning Italian, how
was that in your younger years?
Urmi (21:50):
so because I learned Italian.
Since I went to school, youknow, like I was born in Italy,
so I went to to school, toItaly.
So I, I, there isn't much that Iwould remember, but I can tell
you this.
One thing about my childhood wasthat at home we used to speak
Bengali.
(22:10):
used to speak Bengali into acertain moment because then I
brought Italian at home, so assoon as I learned how to speak
Italian, I was just talking inItalian with my sister.
So at home we were speaking twolanguages, Italian and Bengali.
So me, it was me with my sisterin Italian, and then sometimes I
would speak.
Um, Italian, like I would throwsome Italian words with my
(22:33):
parents when I would speak withmy parents, and my parents
taught me how to speak Bengali.
However, I do regret that I donot know how to write or read in
Bengali because I feel like it'slike.
I feel like I'm missing
Sanika (22:46):
Yeah.
Urmi (22:47):
there.
Like there, I feel like there'sa void because I, I can't
complete, like, I can't, I can'tknow.
only know how to speak it.
And then there's, there areother languages that I know,
like Italian and French,English, which I know how to
read and write and everything.
But I do not know to read andwrite in my parents' language,
which is something that I do
Sanika (23:06):
Yeah.
Urmi (23:06):
a way.
I just know how to
Sanika (23:08):
Now take us from, growing to school in Italy,
speaking Bengali at home, andthen you move to Montreal,
Canada.
I.
Urmi (23:20):
was quite an adventure I.
to say.
Um, because basically in, ItalyI only saw
Sanika (23:32):
Mm-hmm.
Urmi (23:34):
I just saw Italian people.
I did not see even people fromother countries.
And then when I moved toMontreal, I see all these people
with like different likeethnicity, and it was so.
I don't know.
I, I felt like I was Alice inWonderland because everything
was new to me.
(23:54):
It was literally new to me.
And then when I started to go touniversity, I had all these
friends from different parts ofthe world, which I did not have
in Italy.
Like in, I only had Italianfriends, strictly Italian
friends.
I only knew that world.
Whereas in Montreal, I feel likeI was exposed to people from
India, from China, from SouthKorea, Africa, other parts of
(24:15):
Europe.
So for me it was.
A learning opportunity because Ifeel like I'm getting exposed to
these other countries that existin the world that I didn't know
too much about.
And so it was beautiful becauseI also felt like I was able to
connect with a lot of thesepeople, especially because they
also had multiple, likebackgrounds, multiple cultural
(24:36):
backgrounds, you know?
So I feel like I was able toconnect better.
I feel like people wereunderstanding each other better,
whereas, and Italy wasdifferent, you know, I, I just
had one, one
Sanika (24:45):
It's funny you say that 'cause it reminds me of why I
love New York so much.
Right.
So I was raised in Brooklyn, NewYork, and I tell people all the
time, when I hear people saythings like, oh, I've never met
someone from China or never metsomeone from Japan or India and
stuff like that.
It's, it's so, It's very odd.
I can't resonate with it.
Because I was raised inBrooklyn, New York, where New
(25:07):
York is truly a melting pot.
One of my first friends werefrom was from Italy.
Her name was Jenny.
You know what I mean?
I'm talking elementary schoolfriends, like in elementary
school, we celebrated everyholiday from Hanukkah to Chinese
New Year to Rum kapur, toMuslim, like every single
holiday.
(25:27):
D, and this is in elementaryschool, so that's the only thing
I know is to be surrounded bypeople with different
ethnicities, colors, hair types,personalities, languages.
That's all I know.
So when I hear people fromdifferent regions of the world
that's like, well, I've neverseen a black person, or I have
(25:49):
no idea about Asian culture orAfrican culture.
I'm interested, like, I'minterested in your lens.
Because I don't, it just seemsso odd to me and very while
obviously it's no one's like noone created, made it that way.
Now, as an adult, I hope peoplerealize how narrowing that view
(26:12):
is, right.
It's so limiting to only besurrounded by.
And your ethnicity or yourculture versus being immersed in
all of the different culturesaround the world is so
beautiful.
If I'm honest with you, it wasmost surprising to me in
corporate.
(26:33):
That was the first time for me.
I met people in real life thatdidn't know anything about a
multicultural world.
Was in corporate.
Corporate.
'cause again, I went, I wasraised here in New York, so from
elementary school all the way upto college, I was surrounded by
(26:53):
everybody like, you know what Imean?
Swedish, Poland, like.
When I say everybody, everyone,there isn't a cuisine I haven't
tried.
There isn't a culture I haven'tlearned about through a friend
or a friend's friend.
So when I went into corporateand, you know, certain spaces
(27:14):
only have a specific group ofpeople, and most often was like
the only woman or the,especially the only black woman
in the room.
I wasn't intimidated at all.
I actually found it quiteinteresting.
It just, I sat there like asponge and was like, where are
you from?
Where are you from?
What did you come from?
How did you get here?
And it made me realize that alot of people come to New York
(27:38):
diversity.
Urmi (27:42):
diverse New York.
We spoke about this, uh, likethe first time.
I love.
Love New York because I reallyfeel like you have a taste of
everything.
Everything that is there in theworld.
You have it in New York and it'sdone really well.
Like New York does reallycelebrate diversity.
which is so beautiful.
Um,'cause I went a couple oftimes to New York and I feel
(28:03):
like you never get disappointedeven when you are eating at
different restaurants, tryingdifferent cuisines.
I think we tried an Afghanirestaurant and I felt like it
was very.
Very authentic and I, and I lovethat.
I love how New York brings
Sanika (28:14):
I agree.
When my husband and I hadchildren we had to raise our
children here in New Yorkbecause Living in New York
forces you to have a open mindabout everything, about people,
about topics, about politics,about anything.
And it is not something that isconscious, right?
(28:36):
Like everyone's not walkingaround like, oh, I'm a New
Yorker and I'm open-minded, but.
It is subconscious.
Whereas as New Yorkers, we leaveour house every single day and
we have no idea what we gonnasee.
It is going, it might be crazy,it might be a little wild it,
but we're open to the range ofwhat this city has to offer.
(28:58):
And something about that I thinkcreates a foundation of humility
and acceptance amongst people.
Urmi (29:09):
new York, which makes it special.
I, I, I, I agree with you.
Like when you go out, you,you're not sure what you're
gonna see.
And I love how they have likedifferent areas for like
different communities.
Um, and I think I watched thisvideo.
from a couple of, uh, weeks agoabout this Indian couple getting
(29:31):
married and this was happeningin New York and I think they
were doing their celebrationlike, you know, I don't know if
you're familiar with this, butthey have one ceremony where
they have to like enter dancingand they were doing that, I
think near the financialdistrict.
And I was like, this is soincredible.
And, and there is this othergirl that I.
Paul, who is from India, shemoved to study in New York and
(29:52):
she was saying how they werelike teaching Bollywood classes
and, or they were doing like aBollywood class or something in
her university.
And I was like, this is what weshould be doing.
We should be celebratingdiversity.
And going back to your pointabout your own, uh, childhood.
When I grew up, we were notcelebrating even at school.
Like we were not celebratingdifferent, um.
(30:14):
Festivity, like I didn't knowwhat the new lunar year was.
Um, I didn't know about allthese different things and I
grew up in a country which waspredominantly very Catholic.
So I had a cruciferous in myclassroom.
We just celebrated, you know,Christmas, Easter, like, like
typical things that they do.
Yeah.
(30:35):
But for.
For the Italian community livingthere.
For them, the fact that I wasdifferent was a learning
opportunity.
They were always super curiousabout me because we celebrate
know, we do Ramadan and
Sanika (30:47):
Yeah.
Urmi (30:48):
that.
So for them it was a learningopportunity because they were
like, oh my gosh, there's fromus.
Let's get to know her.
And, and when I was going toschool, I was the only one who
was not looking like the rest.
Like there were not that manyimmigrant people.
I was
Sanika (31:03):
Yeah, I know, and that can be really isolating.
This reminds me of a story when,again, when I was in corporate,
um, this woman I used to workwith, her name was Victoria, and
she was from Russia, and shemigrated to New York from Russia
with her husband and herchildren were really small at
the time, and they had what Iwould think is a regular, you
(31:26):
know.
Elementary school day show.
Right, because that's in NewYork.
Your children, they're gonna goon school trips.
They're gonna have shows,they're, it's going to be a full
experience.
I remember she went to theschool and came into the office
after the show and she was a bitemotional, so I was like,
Victoria, are you okay?
What happened?
(31:46):
Did it go well?
Did your son do well?
And she goes, it was the mostbeautiful thing I've ever seen
in my life.
She said that it was thecelebration of us, and I don't
know if they still do this, but.
The show, essentially, eachchild has to go up on stage and
with your native flag, and yougo up on stage and you say, I am
(32:11):
great because I am from Russia.
And in Russia we do X, Y, and Z.
And then the next person comesup.
I'm great'cause I'm from Ghanaand in Ghana and then they all
come together and they sing asong about how beautiful our
class is because we have thewhole world in one space..
And she was so emotional aboutit.
(32:33):
'cause she said in Russia,there's nothing like this.
We don't, there's no difference.
There's no celebrating differentcultures.
There's not even celebrating ifyou look different.
Right.
And I remember saying to her,and again, it was for me, it was
one of those transformativemoments that showed me like,
wow, I do live a privileged lifeby growing up in New York.
(32:54):
Like I didn't, you know, youdon't realize these things
because.
You live here.
Um, and I remember how moved shewas by the ceremony and she was
like, have you ever heard ofanything like this?
I was like, yes, I did itmultiple times.
You have to do it in everygrade.
Because in New York, becausepeople move so much, and your
(33:16):
zone school might not be yourzone school, you might not have
the same friends you had infirst grade, in second grade or
third grade.
So every year it is somethingthat we did.
So she was so moved by it and.
So surprised that this wassomething that was part of the
normal New York culture tocelebrate the differences of
(33:37):
every single student in the roomand celebrate the global
holidays and every religion andpractice that there was that
existed in the classroom.
Urmi (33:49):
it I agree with you.
And, um, well, this is one thingI noticed about Canada.
Like I, I don't know now how itworks in school, but one thing
that happens in, uh, in thesummer, especially Montreal,
which is so multicultural aswell, is that they have.
Festivals.
So for instance, couple of weeksago it was the Italian festival
(34:11):
and then they have the Asianfestival.
So basically they celebrate eachcommunity doing festivals, food
festivals, or doing you know,activities.
And I realized that evenMontreal is also very much like
New York.
Like there's so much around thecity and people celebrate each
community and that's verybeautiful because you know you
(34:34):
are.
Not forcing people to becomelike you.
You're just celebrating wherethey come from and you want them
to celebrate that because thenyou get to learn a little bit
about the other culture.
So I also noticed that they dothat in Montreal during like
festivals in the summer.
And it's very, it's very nice'cause you get to like,
Sanika (34:56):
Yes.
Urmi (34:57):
foods.
You get to see the differentthings.
They, they, they, uh, celebrate.
It's
Sanika (35:01):
And that is the beauty of a defined definition of being
transformative, right?
Because I think often we, we,the perception is that in order
to be transformed or transformedinto a different phase and
season in your life, you need toleave behind who you are.
You need to leave behind yourown religion, your own beliefs,
(35:24):
your own culture, and that's notreally what being amongst a
transformative group of peopleis.
It's not what it means to betransformative in your life.
Right.
It means evolve and add ondifferent layers of who you are
by surrounding yourself bydifferent, with different
(35:44):
people.
Open yourself up to newopportunities.
Right?
You knew like we, like many ofour immigrant parents taught us,
we were told that the only waysto success and happiness was
lawyer, doctor, engineer, butwe.
Took those foundations and addeda transformative layer to it.
(36:05):
We opened ourself up to whatcreativity and happiness can
bring us, and we transformed itinto the way we live now, which
is not foregoing right.
What they've taught us becauseit's, they, they taught us only
what they knew, it'stransforming that definition.
Urmi (36:24):
Yeah.
them at the same time, you know,like they only knew that
Sanika (36:30):
Yes.
Urmi (36:30):
and they taught us this one thing and they want us to
carry forward But I think it'sabout embracing the different
aspect of life and transformingthem.
I think also going back to thiswhole, you know, about diversity
and celebrating diversity, somecommunities are not open to
that.
You know, they just wannapreserve, their own culture,
(36:53):
their own traditions.
But I think it's about reallyembracing that, bringing a
little bit from different worldsand creating another, merging
them and creating a different,fusion of it.
And also that's part of liketransformation and evolution.
Sanika (37:07):
I agree.
What's most important is peopleto understand.
That collaboration does not killpreservation.
It actually amplifiespreservation.
It actually makes you preserveculture a little deeper and
longer.
So it's really, as we weretalking about earlier, stepping
into that fear.
And not trying to step away fromit, because the fear is that if
(37:31):
I open up my culture and I tellthem about my traditions and I
tell them about Bangladesh,they're going to judge it.
They're gonna try to change it.
They're gonna try to move it.
What you don't realize is.
That's the fear that's holdingus back, right?
If I could have said that I'mcoming on this podcast and I'm
just gonna be corporate sonika,I'm not gonna talk about my
Jamaican roots.
I'm not gonna talk about being amom in, in my mind to preserve
(37:56):
the perception of what peoplehave of me, right?
To compartmentalize who I am.
But all that is limitingpeople's opportunity to know who
I am in my
Urmi (38:08):
agree with you.
And you showing up to the worldlike your truest self know, you
being honest to yourself, youknow, you don't wanna like try
to fit in, you don't wanna playa role.
know, you don't wanna perform arole because you think about
this other person's perceptionof what they will think.
'cause then you're lying toyourself, you know?
And I think if you really standfor yourself, you should be
(38:33):
telling your story.
You should be telling about yourroots.
You should be telling about thelanguage that you speak.
What should eat, how you do it.
'cause I used to be a little bitlike that to that.
I used to walk away and not.
Share everything about culture.
So one thing I can, like, I can,I can give you a very simple
example.
Like in the Bengali culture, weeat out with our hands.
(38:56):
We'd eat with our hands.
And I remember one day, one ofmy friends making a comment and
saying, oh my gosh, did you seethese people eat with their
hands?
And so I never told her that wealso do that, but now that I am
much older, I think about it andbe like, why didn't I, why did I
not tell her this?
I want her to be educated aboutthis.
And then guess what?
(39:16):
Other cultures to eat with theirhands.
It's
Sanika (39:18):
Yes.
Urmi (39:19):
you know?
Like you have to be open aboutit.
to.
Not shy.
Shy away from it.
I try not to walk away.
Walk away from it.
'cause I wanna be honest aboutmy identity, about myself, about
my tradition, my culture, and Idon't wanna lie about it to
other people because I'm worriedabout what they would think.
(39:41):
I'm not responsible aboutpeople's opinions.
Sanika (39:43):
You definitely are not, and also understanding that in
order for us to want a moreunified.
Community, right?
Amongst the world, across theglobe.
We have to be willing totransform how we think today for
tomorrow because it's solimiting for you to feel like,
oh, because someone eats withtheir hands, they, ugh.
(40:06):
That is so atrocious.
You don't even know how far thatculture and that lineage come
from and instead of you beingmore curious.
Right.
And the beauty of thisconversation is encouraging
people to lean into their fears.
About being transformed in howyou see people and how you see
(40:27):
your life and what it means tohave a transformative moment and
find those transformativemoments in your everyday life.
If, if.
If you're Spanish and all you dois eat Spanish food, I'm, I'm,
I'm going to ask you tomorrow togo find an African place to eat.
Find a Caribbean place to eat.
You know, open yourself up todifferent cultures, because
(40:49):
preservation comes withcollaboration.
It is the only way.
Urmi (40:57):
There is self transformation, but there is
also transforming other people,which is a little bit what you
said.
You know, like when you tellthis other friend, oh, go and
try this other thing.
You're also transforming.
Another person.
You're also helping the otherperson to in new potentials and
learning about different thingsand discovering different
(41:19):
things.
'cause otherwise we're all gonnabe in our bubble, you know?
And I always say you have to becomfortable with uncomfortable.
That's also part of the
Sanika (41:27):
Yes, you definitely do.
And not leaning away from it.
Because often we are socomfortable in our own culture,
in our own spaces, in our ownfamily, in our own, you know,
the predictability of it all.
Right, so we don't, no one wantsto be rejected or feel like, I
don't know how to eat this food.
(41:47):
I don't know how to usechopsticks.
I don't know how, like youunderstand what I mean?
But it's giving yourself graceand understanding that everyone
doesn't know girl at one point.
We all are sitting there tryingto figure out how to use these
chopsticks.
At some point.
We're all trying to get the FooFu and put it like it's.
It's such an amazing experienceto me to be a child in these
(42:11):
situations.
Urmi (42:14):
agree Lovely.
Yeah.
Sanika (42:18):
Listen, Rumi, thank you so much for being a part of the
podcast and joining me on thisconversation, and I would love
for the audience to just stayconnected with you.
So tell us more about yourpodcast and where we can find
you.
Urmi (42:35):
Stories Beyond Borders Podcast.
It's available on Spotify andApple Podcasts, and there's also
an Instagram page and if thepeople wanna connect, connect
with with me in other platforms,I have a LinkedIn profile called
ign, my YouTube channel calledAl Sign, and if people wanna get
my book, it's available on
Sanika (42:55):
Awesome.
Thank you so much for thisconversation, and this is, how
do you define transformative?
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
Iām Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and Iām so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood youāre able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and lifeās ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them weāve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I donāt take it for granted ā click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I canāt wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.