Episode Transcript
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Raul Lopez (00:04):
This is Raul Lopez,
and you're listening to.
How Do you Save Success inSpanglish?
The path to success isn't easyFor minorities and people of
color.
Many attempt this journey withlittle to no guidance.
Join me as I sit down withindividuals who share their
stories of perseverance so thattogether we can learn how to say
success in Spanglish what'sgood, mi gente, it's your boy,
(00:31):
Raul, Welcome back.
This is how Do you Say Successin Spanglish Today.
My guest is Dr Raul Fernandez.
How's it going, Raul?
How you doing?
What's up?
Good to see you, brother.
Hey, good to see you too, bro.
As always, it's going to bereally weird talking to someone
else who's a Raul, so I'm notused to calling other people
Raul all the time, so this isgoing to be fun.
(00:52):
Raul is a longtime friend ofmine.
I always appreciate he's one ofmy fraternity brothers as well,
so I'm so glad you're able toget on the show.
So just for a little Backgroundon Raul, Dr Raul Fernandez is a
senior lecturer at BostonUniversity, where he studies,
writes and teaches aboutinequalities in education.
He is also chair of the RacialImbalance Advisory Council,
where he advises the MassCommissioner of Education and
(01:14):
Board of Education on schooldesegregation in public schools
in the Commonwealth.
Dr Fernandez wrote a piece thathelped topple the monument to
white supremacy, created a filmseries that engaged thousands of
participants in challengingdialogues and trained thousands
more in equitable policymakingat institutions in the US and
abroad.
Dr Fernandez also served as amember of Brookline Select Board
(01:36):
, the first Latinx personelected to that position.
During his time there, hecreated a working group to
support public housing residents, a racial equity advancement
fund and a task force toreimagine public safety.
Dr Fernandez is also the policychair on the board of Amplify
Latinx, which seeks to buildeconomic and political power for
Latinos in Massachusetts, and aboard member of Commonwealth
(01:57):
Kitchen, which supports womenand people of color in starting
food businesses.
He is also the foundingexecutive director of Brookline
for Racial Justice and Equity,where he lives with his family
in Brookline, Massachusetts, andhe's also a dad raising a
beautiful daughter and a lovinghusband.
So there's nothing you don't do.
Nice, nice, bro.
(02:17):
So you know obviously, veryimpressive resume.
You've accomplished so much andI'm glad I was there to see a
lot of the journey that you'vebeen through.
But the Mercer world doesn'tknow much about you, so I guess,
to kind of start off, tell me.
You know who is Raul Fernandez.
Raul Fernandez (02:32):
Yeah, I'm just a
man standing in front of
another man doing a podcast, noI you know, but you know my work
, my life is really centeredaround equity, particularly
racial equity.
I grew up in a barrio inSpanish Harlem and then later on
in the South Bronx and you know, come from a family of transit
(02:54):
workers.
My father worked at firstcleaning the cars, the train
cars, at night and then later onwas a conductor and then what
they then called a motorman,which is now a train operator,
which is what my sister does andthen later on worked in an
office.
My mother for her you know, mywhole life had been a bus
mechanic working on the airconditioning units on the on the
(03:17):
city buses, and so you knowthat was a big part of my life.
Growing up is just, you know,spending time seeing working
people like doing their thing,going after school, doing my
homework in the break room, atthe train yard or the bus depot,
and, you know, sort of reallyseeing my family lift itself up
through these good union jobsthat they were able to able to
(03:38):
get.
But I started off really, youknow, I remember us being on
public assistance, living inpublic housing for a while and
and going to typically underresourced public schools and
sort of my whole story is abouthaving an opportunity that led
to another, that led to another,that led to where I am right
now, and it's the reason why Ifocus on education right now
(04:01):
because I know what it's donefor me and what it does for so
many other people.
So I'm happy to get more intothat, but you know that that,
for me, is what I think aboutall the time is how we can use
education as a tool to helppeople lift themselves up.
Raul Lopez (04:17):
Nice, and what was
that opportunity you talk about?
Raul Fernandez (04:20):
So when I was
four years old.
I actually was recommended forthis talented, gifted program in
New York by this teacher, MissFriedlander, and who had to
decide who among thefour-year-olds in her class she
was going to recommend for thisprogram.
You know I have athree-year-old right now.
I've been around four-year-olds.
I can't tell you which one'sgot promise and which one
(04:41):
doesn't.
Raul Lopez (04:41):
In fact nobody
really can.
Raul Fernandez (04:43):
I mean they all
have promise is the truth, but
some get picked for this programand others don't.
I get into the talent giftedprogram that gets me to later on
Manhattan East, which is anexam middle school, and then
Bronx Science an exam highschool, all public schools and
then ultimately to BostonUniversity.
If I hadn't gone down thattrack, I would have gone to my
(05:04):
neighborhood schools by the timeI'm in high school.
I was living over by StevensonHigh School, stevo, at the time.
It's actually where Big Punwent, but it was a school that
was only graduating at the time.
Three out of every 10 studentsthat went there that's 30%
graduation rate, nevermind goingon to places like BU.
Meanwhile, bronx Science isgraduating.
Everybody that went there 99 to100% of the students graduate
(05:28):
and go on to places like BU oreven better.
So, like you know, that's thedifference that having that kind
of opportunity can make, andwe've seen.
It's now 40 years later and westill do the same things.
We still have these talentedand gifted programs.
We still, you know, hoardresources and provide them to
some students.
(05:49):
You know we water those flowersand we don't water, other
flowers, and then I don't knowwe sit around wondering why some
are able to succeed and othersaren't.
Right, and it's just you know,that's probably the most
troubling thing is that you gotpeople like me telling my story
and so many other folks tellingtheir stories, and it seems we
(06:09):
still haven't learned thelessons yet.
Raul Lopez (06:12):
No, it's true,
because sometimes you never know
, especially as a kid, and it'sprobably something the same
thing with you.
You probably didn't.
I don't know if you recognizedit, maybe when you were at the
time, that I was doing somethingspecial.
Maybe you're walking by, likeyou said, these other schools,
and you're realizing I couldhave been there, but I'm on this
path.
I mean, did you ever notice thedifferences early on, or was
that more of a kind ofreflective thing?
Raul Fernandez (06:32):
Well, I mean,
you know, like you know, I go
off to these other schools, butI still come back to the same
neighborhood and by the time Iwent to high school I went to
college.
I don't know anybody else in myneighborhood that went to
college.
Doesn't mean nobody did, butI'm telling you anybody I knew
in my neighborhood a few yearsbefore me or even years after me
.
I don't know anyone that went tocollege, right, and so you
(06:53):
recognize that there's.
You know, I'm living thisdifferent, this different life,
having these differentexperiences in school than I am
at home, and and yeah, there'sthat sense of dissonance, like
between the two.
But but you know, I think I can, I can better articulate today
what those differences are, butI certainly felt them at the
(07:13):
time, yeah, and you, not justyou, I think.
Raul Lopez (07:16):
We've had other
people too who have talked about
the difference a smallopportunity can make, where you
know you might not recognizewhat the differences would be,
but the fact that you were ableto get one of those has really
kind of pinpointed you into adifferent trajectory.
And you know, since you kind ofhad this opportunity, you know,
did you feel, you know when youdid get to college, that this,
(07:40):
yes, you got to college andthat's helped you get there, but
did you feel like it was stillenough to help you out when you
were in college, or were youstill struggling, or did you
have any struggles in college?
Raul Fernandez (07:50):
Still struggling
in college too.
So I had applied at the time.
I wanted to be an engineer,like I wanted to build things
like bridges and stuff like thatand I applied to.
Actually I applied to theschools that my guidance
counselor told me to apply to.
So you to be an engineer, youapply.
There was five schools Iapplied to, that was it.
One of them was bu, um bu.
I got into and they actuallygave me the most money, so it
(08:13):
didn't.
I didn't particularly likeboston when I visited, but
that's where we're going.
And um look at you, yeah, but Igot the acceptance letter and it
was, instead of being anacceptance to the college of
engineering, it was anacceptance to the science and
engineering program, which I'dnever heard of and didn't apply
to.
But it turns out that was abridge program and it was a
(08:33):
two-year program.
You do well enough there andthen you can get into the real
college of engineering.
Um, but when I actually startedgoing to the classes, I noticed
that, like that's where all theBlack and Latino kids that were
into STEM were, and we were allin the same place, and it
wasn't long before, like, peoplestarted dropping out because it
was, whereas, like, some bridgeprograms, if they're done right
(08:55):
, are intended to, like, helpyou succeed or lift you up.
This was, like really felt likeit was intended to weed people
out, and at some point I didn'twant to leave BU, but I didn't
want to be in that programanymore and I went to talk to
the director about it because Iwanted to be in comm
communications, which is what Iultimately graduated with.
(09:15):
But I had to get his signatureto leave the program and he told
me we don't like people comingin the back door of the
university and then decidingthey want to be somewhere else.
Raul Lopez (09:27):
Oh wow, oh yeah,
yeah, how did that make you feel
?
Raul Fernandez (09:31):
Oh, I was
enraged, I was so upset.
I literally this guy his namewas Chip, I literally cursed him
out like hard.
Raul Lopez (09:41):
I mean I just, like
slew of expletives.
Raul Fernandez (09:43):
I don't even
remember what I said, but it was
bad.
And then at the end of it Isaid something to the effect of
do you really want a fucking kidlike me in your fucking stupid
program?
And he said no, I don't.
And then he signed the paperand he released me.
I was like good, but it washard it was.
(10:07):
It was like getting acclimatedto this overwhelmingly white
environment was difficult.
I remember being on anorientation tour where they were
like so excited because theywould just won a national
championship.
But then they were like inhockey and I was like damn, this
place is white.
But then they were like inhockey and I was like, damn,
this place is white, and like,and you know, it's harder in a
(10:28):
big university like that to findyour people, which is why, when
you know, I found like LatinosUnidos, which was one of the
Latino students that was aroundat the time, and and also,
ultimately, the fraternity FiatAlpha, like that, I found like a
place where I can have support,because I didn't feel like I
was getting it from theadministration, I didn't feel
like I was getting it fromfaculty.
(10:48):
Um, or anybody else.
Uh, in, and having that peersupport is probably what kept me
around at BU, including when,when I was switching over, I had
to take a semester off, um, andI and I also had to figure out
how to pay for college.
Because, you know, my fathersaid I sent you to be an
engineer, if you want to besomething else, you can pay for
it.
And he wasn't bluffing.
(11:10):
He just stopped paying forcollege.
That was it, it was done.
And so you know, now I havelike this path, I want to go on.
I know I want to be in theCollege of Communication.
I feel good about that.
But, Angela, the advisor atcomms, telling me I can't get in
with my grades from engineering.
I said what does that have todo with anything?
I suck at engineering Doesn'tmean I'll suck at communications
(11:31):
.
And so she's saying I'm notgoing to get in, but I'm going
to still try anyway.
And I got nowhere to live nowbecause I got no money and
thankfully it was actuallybrothers that put me up on a
couch for a semester and let me,you know, get, get my funds
together.
I worked as a security guarddown downtown on milk street, um
early in the morning.
(11:51):
I got the first tee everymorning like five, four or five,
I don't even know what timeearly before the sun rose and.
Raul Lopez (11:56):
I and.
Raul Fernandez (11:57):
I do that all
day and make some money.
And then found my way back intocollege, took on tons of loans,
which which, um thanks, bidenUm.
Raul Lopez (12:06):
I'm done with right
now.
Raul Fernandez (12:07):
I ended up
getting the public service loan
forgiveness finally, but it was,it was I mean it was so many,
so much in loans.
Raul Lopez (12:16):
I thought I was
going to die with those um and
pass them on to somebody else, Isuppose.
Raul Fernandez (12:19):
But, um, but
that's, that's what it was it
was.
It was really really hard, um,to find my way through and I did
not feel like I had the kind ofsupports that that people
deserve.
Raul Lopez (12:29):
Yeah, and you know
you mentioned the fraternity and
the Latinos and Nidos, and Ijust want to mention that you
were one of the founders for ourchapter at Boston university.
And so did you feel at the timethat and I know we'll go, we'll
come back later about some ofthe stuff you've you've done at
Boston University but did youalso feel at the time that when
(12:49):
you were there, that there wasthere was something missing and
that's why you wanted to kind ofcreate something and be more
involved with something?
Raul Fernandez (12:56):
I felt like
there was something missing from
me right, I wasn't because whenthe fraternity started I was, I
was still in my freshman year,right, so I was, and we had guys
that were were seniors, juniors, sophomores, and then a couple
of us, two of us that were, um,that were in our first year, and
so we were really, I think,responding to what the other
guys were creating and and itfelt like you know, when you,
(13:21):
you know in an environment whereyou feel so out of place, where
you feel so disconnected, sounsupported.
To see, in particular, likethese men coming together and
saying like we're going tocreate something positive and
supportive where and also domore for our community on and
(13:42):
off campus, like that just feltlike really right to me and kind
of what I needed.
So you know, I'm a first yearstudent at BU.
I'm still selfish at that pointI'm not necessarily thinking
about how much I'm going to, youknow, contribute and this, and
that it's more like what do Ineed?
And this is one of the things Ineeded.
Raul Lopez (13:59):
Yeah, and I mean I'm
sure, because of the fact that
a lot of us roll in the sametype of group, that you know
your needs also, you knowreflected on the needs of a lot
of other people.
So inadvertently, yourself-pity still kind of helped
out with a lot of other peoplemoving forward.
Raul Fernandez (14:15):
So yeah, Well,
you recognize that, like, these
kinds of spaces are so importantthat if they, if they didn't
exist, someone would try tocreate them tomorrow, right, so
there's been Latinosinos unidos,there was mecha, they merged to
form alianza latina, but nowthere's all these other kinds of
latin organizations at bu2 andit's like sort of like an
ecosystem of of support and morefaculty and staff engaging and
(14:40):
supporting those students.
It's just, it's so criticallyimportant to have those kinds of
spaces.
I think sometimes people thinkof, in terms of like racial
identity, people as likefinished products.
These students are Black andthese students are Latino and
these students are whatever.
But really, in terms of likeracial identity, development,
(15:04):
development, all people, I'msure, but especially younger
people, are incomplete andthey're still forming their own
identity as it relates to raceand policy and just living in
the world.
So I always say I came to BU,puerto Rican and I left Latino
and now I really identify as aperson of color.
(15:24):
So, even like, my conception ofself is broadened out further
and who I see myself incommunity with, like Puerto
Rican, very limited Latino, muchbroader people of color, even
broader than that, right, whoyou see yourself as in others
can change over time and for somany of us we're still trying to
figure out like who we are inour own Latinidad, or like our
(15:48):
own, like race, our ownethnicity, our own, you know,
whatever it is, and having otherpeople around us, even if it's
not a program that'sspecifically, you know, designed
to work us through whateverlike having that space is so
important it Um?
it definitely was for me.
Raul Lopez (16:08):
Yeah, definitely,
definitely, and and so obviously
you do eventually graduate umfrom Boston university in
communications.
You know what was your.
What was your next step afterthat?
Um working in the field.
Raul Fernandez (16:23):
You know I
ultimately ended up working in
um at a pr firm called lowestpollen partners.
That was high-tech pr.
I remember the big client atthe time was ibm.
This is when they had likelotus as a, as a, as a product,
if you remember that and um andI was working there just doing,
doing what you do, uh, promotingstuff.
(16:45):
I didn't fully understand, to behonest, with you working with
like high tech journals andstuff like that.
But I graduated in 2000 andsomething happened the very next
year, that September, which was9-11.
And you know, interestingly atthe time, when that happened, I
was again living on a couch withbrothers.
(17:07):
I was supposed to have moved insomewhere in september of that
year and it didn't work out.
So I I had money, but I didn'thave a place to live.
Guys put me up again, and so Iremember when, when 9-11
happened, but after that,basically, the the dot-com
bubble had already burst.
At that point, if you rememberdot-com, dot-com and all that
kind of stuff, and so a lot ofPR firms were in trouble already
(17:28):
.
In fact, my firm had alreadyhad a round of layoffs, and in
that round of layoffs I actuallygot promoted to somebody else's
job, who got laid off because Iwas cheaper.
It put me in that person's job,but then after 9-11, the
economy really tanked and the PRfirm basically closed up shop.
They kept a few people on incase there might be new business
(17:48):
in the future, but the rest ofus all got laid off at that
point and there were really nojobs to be had for a while.
And so I was getting theseunemployment checks and one of
the brothers at some point sayshey, I'm down here in Miami.
We have a three bedroomapartment, only two of us living
in it.
If you want to'm down here inmiami, we have a three-bedroom
apartment, only two of us livingin it.
If you want to come down here,ride it out for a while like
(18:09):
come through.
I was like that, I'm out reallyit was, if you worked in pr,
like you could not find a job.
At that point it was like itwas just impossible and so um,
and so I went down there and youknow that became like about
three, almost four years of mylife living in Miami and I
started.
I started working, I got agraduate degree down there and
(18:30):
just you know lived down therefor a while, worked in
communication at BarrettUniversity, before I finally
made my way back up north atNortheastern University and then
ultimately, bu, where I've beenfor the last 16.
Was it 16 years now?
Oh, 18 years now.
Raul Lopez (18:45):
Yeah, when did you
come back up to Boston from
sunny Miami?
Raul Fernandez (18:48):
I was having a
good time in Miami, but it
didn't feel like a serious placeto me.
To be honest, I remember lotsof just conversation about
Britney Spears, but not muchelse, and she was a singer, you
may remember at the time, Anyway, but it was.
I just remember feeling likedisconnected from the real world
(19:10):
living down there.
I mean, I was literally livingon South Beach at some point
with another brother and it justfelt like not real to me and I
think I wanted to get back upnorth seasons and all that kind
of stuff.
Raul Lopez (19:23):
Nice, and then you
said you went to Northeastern.
Raul Fernandez (19:27):
Yeah, I worked
at Northeastern for a year in
the PR department there, whichwas a hot mess.
But, yeah, I came up to that joband it was, let's say, I'd been
there a year.
I've been there a year and atsome point the place where I
worked at BU, the Howard ThurmanCenter, the assistant director
(19:49):
the first ever assistantdirector was leaving and she
actually had lived on my floorfreshman year at BU, Warren
Towers and she said, hey, Raul,I'm leaving this job, but I
think you'd be good for it.
And it wasn't like we were likevery close, we didn't like hang
out or anything, but she's likeI think you'd be good for this
job and I was like, oh, let metake a look at it and it was
interesting and I applied.
(20:19):
It was basically this communityspace really a community space
that really attracted a lot ofstudents of color to it but
wasn't specifically only forstudents of color and I applied
and ended up getting hired forthe job and it was.
Raul Lopez (20:25):
It was one of the
best, best jobs I've ever had
and did that change yourtrajectory a bit like, are you
doing a lot of pr stuff?
Raul Fernandez (20:31):
yeah, I
basically left pr behind at that
point.
I mean, you still have calmskills, which which benefit in
different ways, but I left itbehind at that point I had, you
know, when I was working in pr.
I had some bad experiences innortheastern where they, you
know, at some point tried to getme to do PR for this report,
which was like, I mean, I'veseen that I guess I've seen
(20:57):
worse science.
That was done ostensibly bythis faculty member from
Northeastern, but it was fundedby the Center for Immigration
Studies, which bills itself asnonpartisan, but every piece of
research they've ever put out isthat immigrants are terrible.
They're just horrible.
They're bad for the economy.
(21:18):
Just immigrants are bad.
And so they're just a reallywell-known BS think tank that
just tries to popularizeresearch about immigrants being
terrible.
And so I was really surprisedthat we were even going to
promote this thing, and so Itold them that I wouldn't do it,
that it was junk science.
It was no new research.
They just took existing dataand crunched it in a certain way
(21:41):
that told the story they wantedto tell.
crunched in a certain way thatwas that that told the story
they wanted to tell and, um, andI was told that I had to do it
anyway and that I should thinkabout what it meant for my
career and all that kind ofstuff.
And maybe I should, I shouldsleep on it, and I just told him
I could sleep on it if you want.
I'm just happy to give you thesame answer tomorrow, but I'm
not doing it and uh, I thinkfrom that point on they were
(22:02):
like well, he's not a teamplayer, all that kind of stuff.
But from my perspective it wasyou know, you gotta, you gotta
have some kind of you know, whenit comes to your values and
things like that, you gotta havesome kind of line that you know
cross and you know it's a realshame that they tried to push me
past that line even after Imade it clear that it was there.
But so wasn't long for that job.
(22:23):
Those folks were bad business,you know.
I don't know that thatdepartment's even improved since
then.
It's been many years, you know.
But I definitely was like I gotto get out of here and it just
happened that the BU opportunitycame up, yeah, and so the
Howard Thurman Center that youworked at, you know.
Raul Lopez (22:44):
Can you tell me a
little bit about what that was
and what it meant, because yousaid it was very?
It attracted a lot of people ofcolor and it kind of evolved
with time, I think as well.
So can you tell me a little bitabout that?
Raul Fernandez (22:55):
Yeah, it's the
Howard Thurman Center for Common
Ground.
It I mean just a wonderfulspace it was.
I mean now it's a different,it's in a different location,
different vibe, I don't reallyknow as much about it now, but
at the time it was like a livingroom in the campus understand
or make space for people toengage in their own identity
(23:18):
development.
And so, whereas Northeastern,for instance, has long had an
African-American center, a JohnD O'Brien center, latino Student
Cultural Center, asian-americancenter and other spaces like
(23:40):
that, bu never has and stilldoes to this day.
Bu finally opened its firstcenter for LGBTQ students, after
decades of students sort ofagitating and advocating for
(24:00):
such a space but have never hada space like that for folks of
color.
The closest thing that existedwas the Howard Thurman Center,
and so, even though it was neverin any way, you can't find
anything in the missionstatement or anything that says
this is for kids of color orwhatever.
As I mentioned before, thesespaces are so important that
(24:22):
folks will find a way to makethe space where they can.
And so that's exactly whathappened at Thurman Center, and
so there were many students thatcame to programs there from all
different backgrounds, but youwould routinely see Black and
Latino students and Asianstudents spending a lot of time
there.
When they were just grabbinglunch, they'd come down and eat
there.
(24:42):
When they were between classesthey wanted to study, they would
come hang out there, and thenthere was a lot of programming
by student groups that wastaking place there too.
Raul Lopez (24:51):
Yeah, I remember my
freshman year, which I think was
in 2001, right there in like9-11.
But you're right, you come intocollege campus.
You feel like a small number ina big pond that you're not used
to and it's a different oceanfor you.
And you're just sitting atevery dining room table and
you're looking I think thatperson's Latino.
(25:12):
Maybe I should, if I can gotalk to them.
Oh, I see that person.
And then you go to these clubsand you go slowly.
You start building your thingand having a centralized
location for that.
really, I think makes adifference for the comfort level
, and that comfort level I thinkmakes college less hard.
You know, I think when you'renot worried about stuff and
(25:33):
you're not anxious and you'renot, your emotions have a big
impact on how you do in college.
And when you're feeling morecomfortable, they do make a big
difference in that.
So you know, I remember whenthe Harvard Thermal, I think it
was I was in school when thatstarted and I think you were, I
think I was at my tail end whenyou started working there as
well.
So we did a lot of stuff there.
So it was, it was a good time.
(25:53):
But, obviously during this timeand you've gone through all this
stuff, obviously you're, you goget your PhD as well and I
think your, your focus was yeah,so I was um.
Raul Fernandez (26:11):
So at that point
I worked for five years at the
howard thurman center and then Iswitched to go work at student
activities to be like theirassociate director and um, the
dean of what was then called theschool of education.
Now it's called b we lockcollege of education, human
development, um, but the deanthere harden coleman who knew?
me through, I don't know, we youknow programming, whatever
(26:32):
stuff, we did probably dothururman Center, and he was
like, have you thought aboutdoing a doctorate?
I'm like not really, I don'tknow, I guess maybe.
And he kind of convinced me todo it and and and you know,
fortunately, when you work at auniversity, you get typically
some kind of tuition remissionthat either covers all of or all
of or, in the case of BU, mostof the cost of getting a degree.
(26:55):
And so I was able to work atthe university while going,
doing part-time um a doctoralprogram, and it took me about
five years um to get that, toget that degree and get it done.
Uh, and I'll tell you, I, I was, I was like good, I, you know I
was, I was, my trajectory wasmaybe to be like a student or
(27:16):
something like that, and Ihadn't been thinking about a
doctorate before he brought itup.
But, um, when he, when he didbring it up, the thing that I
thought about was actually, um,my mom, who had tried, like had
these like starts and stopstrying to get a bachelor's
degree and just like never couldget it done.
I mean, she went to multipleschools multiple times trying to
do a class here, do a classthere, but never was able to
(27:38):
earn that degree.
And so for me, I was like thisis something that I could do, I
have the ability to do it, Ihave like the privilege to be
able to do this, to like earnthis degree.
It would, it would feel wrongnot to do it because I knew I
could and I had the personalability to do it, but also the
luxury to do it as well.
And so I sort of committedmyself to doing it, but sort of
(28:01):
in her honor she's still aroundbut like in her honor to be able
to give that degree to her,which, you know, because the
reason she wasn't able to gether own degree was because she
was taking care of us, you know,and like looking after us and
also working she was.
You know she was doing all thethings and you know which made
it difficult for her to be ableto do that.
You know for herself.
And so it was important for meto do that.
Raul Lopez (28:23):
Yeah, no, I think
it's.
You know, it's a continualthing.
I think that you're talkingabout where it's like there's
been these opportunities thathave kind of presented
themselves in your life, whetherit's a nudge in the direction
to, you know, go get yourdoctorate, or something like
that.
And I think for a lot of us,the idea of risk in taking those
opportunities, you know,especially when you have an
(28:44):
opportunity, because there'salways, you know, as you go with
life, there's always situationswhere you, I can't go now.
I have kids, I have family, Ihave to do stuff.
Can't go now.
I have kids, I have family, Ihave to do stuff and there's
good reasons where it mightdelay you more, but just you
know, building the courage tokind of come up and say, yeah,
uh, maybe I should take thisopportunity and you know, what's
the worst that can happen indoing that?
I think that's something we, we,we challenge ourselves, you
know, as latinos of you know,taking that risk because our
(29:07):
family's always you know Ialways go really risk averse,
you know, just go to work, makesome money, shut up and be happy
with what you have, don't,don't try to do too much, so but
that's good man.
And so you was your doctorate.
Is that when you started doingthe education inequalities or
that kind of somethingafterwards?
Raul Fernandez (29:24):
Yeah, yeah.
So it was an education.
I mean, my doctorate, like mydissertation, was like about
something else.
It was, it was it was notunrelated, but it was about
student trustees.
So students that are on boardsof trustees, which is which is
not?
It's more common in publicinstitutions, less common in
private institutions like the?
U.
But that what I was trying tounderstand is like the ways in
which students can exercisepower on college campuses, um,
(29:49):
and you know, I I knew a lotabout um student activism and
organizing and working throughstudent groups, student
government and all that, butthis idea that there could be
students that sit at the highestlevel, the biggest decision
makers, the people who literallycan hire and fire the president
(30:10):
, the board of trustees and wastrying to understand how they
utilize that power.
And so I studied studenttrustees in the UMass system, so
across the various differentcolleges in the UMass system and
during periods from the late60s up until more recently, but
including during the time ofstudents trying to get
(30:31):
universities to divest fromapartheid South Africa, students
trying to get universities todivest from apartheid, south
africa, um students trying toget universities, in some cases,
to like, not invest inathletics and to keep money
focused on, uh, on, um, on tothe educational mission, to keep
tuition from going up, like allthe things that, like you know
now you know we see how muchtuition has skyrocketed and
(30:52):
students were trying to tryingto stop that from happening.
How much our colleges are aboutthings that have nothing to do
with learning in some cases andstudents were trying to stop
that.
And how much our colleges manyof them, bring in so much money
and make investments in reallyproblematic ways, and how
(31:15):
students are trying to stop that.
And you know it's reallyinteresting to study.
But I think also because of mywork in administration which
really was you sort of got memore focused on the inequities
that we see on college campuses.
More focused on the inequitiesthat we see on college campuses
and then, through my doctoralstudies, understanding more of
the history of colleges and howthey weren't built for for all
(31:40):
of us not even most of us andand how we see the legacy of
that today, I started diggingmore and more into that and
really have carved that out asas a niche for myself within the
world of higher education, andthen, even more recently, taking
that a step further andthinking through what that looks
(32:02):
like through the lens of policyand legislation and how shifts
in policy might make ourcampuses more inclusive and
equitable, and so that's been abig focus for me lately.
Raul Lopez (32:16):
Yeah, it's one of
those things where every time
you dig a little bit, you alwaysfind something else behind it,
and it's always something elseabove, and if you keep climbing
that ladder until you get to thetop and that's where the big
change happens.
So I guess, to kind of talk alittle bit about some of your
expertise, what are some ofthese inequalities that you see
facing students nowadays?
Raul Fernandez (32:36):
Yeah well, I
mean, we've sort of gotten rid
of a lot of the prohibitionsthat used to exist.
Right, Like women couldn't goto college.
There were quotas on the numberof Jewish students that go to
college.
There were quotas on the numberof Jewish students that go to
(33:07):
college.
There were prohibitions on,certainly, when folks were
enslaved, they weren't allowedto engage in education.
But even after that there werelimits on who could be in
college based on race and ethnicidentities.
Immigration not, you couldafford it, and the truth is that
there are at some of the bestcolleges out there right now,
there are young peopleespecially who are getting into
those colleges but can't affordto go to them, and that that's
(33:29):
still perfectly legal, andthat's what we do.
Some colleges have stepped upand increased financial aid,
especially for people at thelowest income levels.
But, but, but.
But.
That still holds true as well.
And then meanwhile, as I said,the rising cost is leading so
many more people to go into debtfor something that everyone
(33:50):
tells them they need.
So if you don't get this degree,you're not going to earn as
much money as you know folksthat do, or you're not going to
have the same opportunities.
And now that, uh, that job thatused to require a high school
degree, which has requires abachelor's degree, by the way,
the one that requires abachelor's degree now requires a
master's degree, and you justhave to, like, keep doing this
thing and, um, you know, I thinkthat's a really big issue
(34:13):
across the board when you startthinking also about the racial
inequities on college campuses,the legacy of exclusion that has
sort of created thisenvironment where so many
students of color still feellike, not feel like, but clearly
(34:33):
understand that these spacesweren't built for them, and that
our faculty and even staffstill don't reflect the student
body today, which issignificantly more diverse than
it's ever been, and there's needfor changes there as well.
And then, on a policy level, youknow we have a changing
(34:54):
landscape out there.
You have the Supreme Court thatjust undid what we knew as
affirmative action, in not atotal way, but in a major way,
and we have states across thecountry that are banning what I
do, literally the classes Iteach.
The work that I do here inBoston, I couldn't do in a
(35:18):
growing number of states acrossthe country right now, and so
you know understanding whythat's happening, what the
implications are and what weintend to do about it is a
really important thing to focuson right now.
Raul Lopez (35:33):
Yeah yeah, and you
touched upon a lot of different
things and so you know.
But, you know, one of thethings that hit hard, I think,
was the economic aspect ofthings, where my dad is an
immigrant from Peru truck driver.
You know, I knew from the getgo that we couldn't afford
college.
So the only way to get therewould be, you know, get good
(35:54):
financial aid or take out loans.
And when I get to college and Icompletely mess it all up and
screw myself out of most of myfinancial aid and I'm paying
extra classes and doing ourstuff and then I, you know,
fortunately graduate, but then,you know, then I'm stuck with
like $60,000 in debt and theburden of.
You know, I'm 20 years out ofcollege and I'm still like man.
(36:16):
If I can get rid of these loans, I'd have an extra $600 a month
, just you know that's a bigchunk of change.
You know that.
That's a luxury car, that's,that's that's.
You know savings, that's a lotof extra money I could be doing
with and make good money.
You know what I mean.
It's so it still hurts, youknow.
Raul Fernandez (36:33):
And well, what's
even worse is that there are
people out there with the samedebt and didn't get the degree.
Yeah, so, so a significantportion of that student debt
that's out.
There are people that tookclasses, enrolled in programs
couldn't finish but it doesn'tmean that they don't know that
money.
They still do and they'vethey've got nothing to show for
it.
Raul Lopez (36:50):
Yeah, yeah, and, and
.
So I think you know like I'mbig when I talk to like younger
kids and generations, like youknow, teach the economics of a
college degree as well, becausewe grew up in that Degree is
more important than anything.
Do whatever you have to do toget a degree.
When you get out of college,you're going to make so much
money.
It's going to be worth it.
It's worth loans.
You're going to be able toafford everything.
This is the pipe dream you'regoing to have in college,
(37:12):
college, college, college,college.
Then 9-11 happens and you'remaking 15 an hour with a
bachelor's uh, for the next 15years before you start making
any good money, and your studentloans are kicking in.
Raul Fernandez (37:21):
So it's been a
shitty ride, it's a and I can't
wait to.
Raul Lopez (37:26):
You know I don't
have any more student loans.
I'm looking forward to that day.
I think I'll probably like 65when that happens at this point.
But that's awesome, man.
You know it's, it's, I'm glad.
And you mentioned a lot ofstuff about policies and things
like that.
So you know you are proactiveoutside of.
You know what you do in highereducation.
(37:47):
Can you tell me a little bitabout some of the stuff you do
outside and you feel those areimportant?
Raul Fernandez (37:52):
Yeah, and some
of the stuff are connected to
the work.
I mean it's all connected, butsome of it's directly connected.
So in this work on the RacialImbalance Advisory Council that
I chair, we're looking atsegregation in Massachusetts
schools, which exists stilltoday.
This is the 70th anniversary ofBrown v Board and our schools
(38:18):
are significantly segregatedacross the country, especially,
surprisingly for some, in theNortheast and in Massachusetts.
We've been digging into thedata.
We're going to present a reportin June to the Board of
Elementary and SecondaryEducation that shows significant
gaps between the experiencesand outcomes of students in
(38:40):
intensely segregated non-whiteschools, so schools where the
overwhelming percentage ofstudents literally 90% plus of
the students are Black and orLatino, compared with intensely
segregated white schools wherealmost all students are white.
We're seeing huge gaps relatedto chronic absenteeism, to test
(39:05):
scores, to basically everymeasure imaginable that the
Department of Elementary andSecondary Education tracks and
requires that districts sendthem.
Um, you'd rather, um, certainlyrather be an intensive
segregated white school than anintensive segregated non-white
school by a long shot, uh, andit is, um, I mean, some of it is
(39:29):
.
It's really, when you thinkabout it, heartbreaking because
we know, because we've got avoluntary desegregation program
called MECO in Massachusettswhere students, if they get in
as a lot or if you get in, youcould actually leave let's say,
the Boston public schools, whereyou might end up in one of
those intensely segregatedschools and end up in a
different district that's moreracially balanced schools and
(39:54):
end up in a different district.
That's more racially balanced.
And we just saw some researchcome out this year that shows
that the kids that actually justget moved they still live in
the same neighborhood, by theway.
They just go to a differentschool, kind of like I did.
They just go to a differentschool that the outcomes for
those kids in terms of testscores, in terms of graduation,
in terms of getting into college, all of it are significantly
better compared with studentswho also applied to that same
(40:16):
program but didn't get it.
Um, and so we, we know it ain'tthe kids, it's the, it's the
environment.
Um, and unfortunately, for forso many of these kids, they're,
they're being placed inenvironments where, um, the odds
are stacked against them interms of being able to succeed,
and it's not just unfortunate,it's unacceptable and, in fact,
(40:39):
it's unconstitutional.
And so I wouldn't be surprisedafter our report comes out if
there's not, you know, legalaction trying to remedy the
problems that we're seeingacross the Commonwealth,
particularly Boston, springfield, other places like that, and so
that's some of the work rightthere is really trying to draw
(41:00):
attention to this issue ofsegregation.
Related to that, there arebills that would attempt to put
more teeth into the oversightaround issues related to
segregated schools, would putmore funding toward addressing
these issues, and those are thekinds of things that I think
after we put this report out andpart of the report will be
supporting those bills butreally getting behind, you know,
(41:22):
shifting the legislation sothat this isn't allowed to
continue with so littleengagement.
It's really sad Like we askquestions about like the Board
of Elementary and SecondaryEducation is supposed to send a
letter to districts when they'reout of compliance with what we
have a law called the RacialImbalance Law that makes it
(41:45):
illegal to have the kinds ofschool systems that we see right
now, and we asked in the last20 years, how many times has the
board sent a letter like thatto a district?
And the answer was zero.
And so even the body that'ssupposed to be doing oversight
hasn't been doing the oversight.
It's really, it's embarrassingand, like I said, it's not just
unfortunate, it's unacceptable,and so that's really important
(42:08):
work.
At the local level you mentioned, I'm the executive director of
Brookline for Racial Justice andEquity, and so in the community
where I live in Brookline, it'sa nonprofit organization that's
looking to build an informed,motivated and organized
constituency around racialjustice.
But really as a method ofpolicy change, to start to build
a constituency that says weneed something different here.
(42:31):
We need greater access, greaterhousing affordability,
affordability in child care, sothat underpaid people,
especially people of color, canafford to live here.
We need to feel more included,more part of the you know,
represented and elected andappointed positions and like
their civil rights protections.
(42:52):
And then we need more access toopportunity to.
You know, the schools shouldwork as well for us as they do
for anyone else, and even in ourschools we see big gaps, um,
based on black and latinostudents compared to the white
and asian students in ourschools.
Um, and then also aroundeconomic opportunity, um, you
know, I was just looking at areport that shows, actually,
massachusetts has the biggestgap in income between white and
(43:19):
Latino residents, connecticut'ssecond, by the way.
Rhode Island's on the list too.
It's actually interestingbecause a lot of the blue states
where you see the gap there,and so addressing those kinds of
inequities are really importanttoo but you can.
Raul Lopez (43:49):
You can see the
stark differences.
Where it's like, this isprovidence, everything that's
such as providence is still kindof hood, kind of ghetto, kind
of poor.
And then it just rolls out andgets really white and a lot more
money.
And I remember we went to goplay baseball against barrington
, which is one of like the youknow the the biggest schools in,
uh, one of the richest schoolsin rhode island, and we go there
(44:12):
and we're we're JV, by the way,because I started I didn't play
baseball to like my senior year, even though I should.
I wanted to since freshman yearand I just figured I want to do
at least one season before Igraduate.
And I did baseball.
I was JV and JV team.
We're wearing the old uniformsfrom our previous you know
whatever varsity stopped wearing.
They have holes, they have dirt, they have stains, they're just
(44:33):
all beat up.
And we get to this jv game andthese guys have custom jerseys
with their names on it, withfitted hats with their names on
the back of the hats and I'mlike we're gonna lose, we're
gonna lose, we're gonna do that.
We did, we got, we got ourasses, but it's like, you know,
but it was like that's that.
That was a prime example ofwhat you're talking about on a
baseball field, let alone, likeyou know, in society and stuff
(44:54):
like that, where it's just, youknow, we're 30 miles away and
it's a completely differentworld, you know.
Raul Fernandez (44:59):
Yep absolutely.
Raul Lopez (45:02):
And so you obviously
you're a lecturer too, and you
know when you're teaching.
You know what are some of thethings you talk about when you
teach with your students.
Yeah, you know what are some ofthe things you talk about when
you teach with your students.
Raul Fernandez (45:13):
Yeah, well, I
think, really understanding the
interplay between so I teach acouple of courses, one on what's
called diversity and justice ineducation, around social
justice and ed, another one onschool segregation, and then
others that are about more likethe history of higher education
or current issues in highereducation, those kinds of things
(45:33):
and really understanding theinterplay between activism,
advocacy, like those who want topush for greater equity in
education the interplay betweenthat and also policy legislation
, like how do you actually getit done, what are the headwinds,
(45:55):
what are the tailwinds, whatsupports you have, but also
what's working against you, andthen also what the trends are
out there.
So recently I did a presentationthat they came out of some
research which was looking atthe impact of these policies
(46:15):
that are proliferating acrossall these different states
Florida, texas, oklahoma, idaho,everywhere that are like
banning books and DEI and alsoanti-trans, all this stuff,
right, and I was trying tounderstand, like where it's
coming from now.
Right, because it's not likefolks all of a sudden decided
(46:37):
they didn't like this stuff butnow it's really starting to
happen and what led to that.
But in understanding that, Icame across the voter
registration statistics forFlorida, and Florida is a state
that actually you can see whenpeople register to vote, they
have to declare a party.
They can declare Republican,democrat, unenrolled,
(46:59):
independent, rather, andprobably some other parties, but
those are the ones that are themost popular and what we're
able to see over time is likehow those numbers have changed.
And so you know I was talkingwith our students about is you
know?
You get Ron DeSantis cominginto office in 2019, right, the
governor there and then you haveCOVID hitting in 2020.
(47:22):
And one of the things RonDeSantis did in COVID he said
don't worry about vaccines,don't worry about masks,
everybody's going to school.
Like it was crazy right.
But you know what?
People loved it and massiveamounts of people moved to
Florida because they wantedtheir kids in school, because
they didn't want, they wanted tobe able to go to nightclub.
(47:43):
They wanted to be able to notwear a mask, not get a vaccine,
all that kind of stuff.
What we start to see is ashifting of the registered
voters away from Democrats,which had a quarter million vote
advantage voter advantage whenhe got elected and then after
that, really starts to sort ofeat away at that.
(48:03):
Then comes 2021, where hestarts his campaign against woke
and starts all the don't saygay bill and all the other bills
that that everybody probablyknows about at this point.
And what's happening?
There is more people love thatand I'm moving to florida.
At the same time, there's a lotof people who vote democrat
(48:23):
that are leaving florida becausethey don't want to live like
that right, and then also thestuff you know, the roe v wade
decision, abortion, and peopleare.
I'm out of here, and so we're atthe point now where, before he
took office, or even when hetook office, democrats had a
quarter million dollar voteradvantage.
Now Republicans have a millionperson registered voter
(48:46):
advantage, and which hassignificantly changed Florida
from a swing state, which Obamawon and then Trump won,
significantly change floridafrom a swing state, which obama
won and then trump won, to, uh,really a red state.
I mean it's just properly redstate at this point, and I think
those numbers are going to goeven up for republicans as more
people register before theelection.
So, um, understanding theimplication of that, um of of of
(49:08):
that, that playbook I don'tthink ron desantis is some
genius.
That's like here's what I'mgoing to do.
Oh, kovat's coming, let me dothis and then I'm gonna start
doing these.
I think he's just doing thingsright but other people watch
that and they say, wow, that'sreally seems to be working.
Like you can do crazy thingslike this and still be in office
.
In fact, if you're crazy enough, then people will leave who
(49:32):
don't like it, people will movethere who love it and you
actually solidify your power.
See the exact same thinghappening in Texas right now.
Texas was almost purple.
It was always red, but it wasalmost purple.
There's more Latinos thananybody else who live in Texas
right now.
A lot of them are Republicans,though, and we don't know enough
(49:54):
about Texas data because theydon't actually keep their voter
registration in the same way,but it almost felt like Texas
might go blue at some point.
I don't know about that anymore.
Greg Abbott's basically run thesame plays and we see the same
thing happening, and sonationally, we're starting to
see that in recent memory goingback to the civil rights era,
(50:15):
certainly but in recent memory Idon't know that it's been this
different to live in a state ina long time, meaning the
difference between what rightsyou have access to, what books
you have access to, what kind ofhealth care you have access to,
is significantly I mean, it's asignificant difference between
(50:35):
Massachusetts and Florida and inmany other states.
Right, it's just significantlydifferent and because of that
and because of these laws havebeen passed by state
legislatures in which power hasbecome concentrated, meaning
even if the governor goes awayor just decides not to run again
, somebody else becomes governor.
In order to change these laws,you need the legislature to
(50:58):
change the laws, and that'sunlikely to happen anytime soon
and there will be challenges tothese laws, but they're going to
end up at the Supreme Court andwe know what that Supreme Court
looks like, which means thatthese differences in living in
this state versus that state aregoing to be they're going to
persist for a very long time andI think are going to lead.
They're going to persist for avery long time and I think are
(51:19):
going to lead to some meaningfulshifts in population um,
towards some of those states and, in some cases, away from some
of those states.
Um, and and and and.
More political concentration,more, more, more polarization,
essentially, uh, in these places, and so that ain't good, it's
just not.
It's not good, it's not goodfor the United States and it
also means it ain't good for thepeople that stay in places,
(51:45):
because they don't really havemany other options for us, I
mean for undergraduateadmissions, for instance.
I think a lot more students noware thinking about the policies
in the states where they'reapplying to colleges in a way
that they probably didn't before.
(52:05):
Right, I'm applying to acollege, I'm not applying to a
state, but now people are reallythinking about that.
I think that's going to havesome meaningful impact on where
people go to college, especiallyat a decision-making point.
Right Like you don'tnecessarily think about moving.
You got to move my whole life,but if I'm going to go to
college anyway, I'm movinganyway.
Where am I going to go?
And so those are the kinds ofthings that we're trying to
(52:30):
focus our attention on and thenthink about, because you know,
what we've seen is who thepresident is makes a big
difference on what life is likeon college campuses and what
life is like period, and thenalso which party is exercising
power either at the federallevel or the state level, the
(52:51):
distinction between living inthis state and that state is
just going to grow and it'sgoing to impact especially where
people decide they want to live.
If they're at the decision pointof going to college not just
what college they want to go to,but what state they want to
live in while they're in collegeand maybe stay afterwards it's
(53:12):
going to lead to a meaningfulshift, especially for anybody
who does anything related toequity work or education,
teaching, you know, diversitywork, all that kind of stuff.
It's it's you know I can'timagine doing what I do right
now in Florida.
(53:33):
I don't think I'd be able towrite not in a meaningful,
authentic, honest way, withoutfear of reprise or repercussions
?
I couldn't.
I think it's something that wehave to pay really close
attention to.
We've got an election coming upand I think that's going to
lead to even further impacts forthe people that can use the
(53:55):
forum.
That might lead to even furtherimpacts for the people that can
use the forum.
Raul Lopez (53:58):
Yeah, and that was a
lot.
Raul Fernandez (54:05):
In my work I
always tell my students my job
is not to make you happy.
It makes you feel good aboutanything.
It's to tell you where thingsstand and it's not like.
I'll say it's not like.
It's like, oh, I think thinkthings are gonna be really bad.
But I don't know what I'mtalking about.
It's like, oh, things arealready bad.
So I was telling you years agoit's gonna get bad.
(54:25):
It's pretty bad right now andwhat I'm telling you now is it
can actually get worse.
And you know, I don't I don'tget any, any joy out of out of
sort of making that predictionor providing a lot of evidence
that that's going to be the case.
But I think I think you know wehave to be, you know, going
with the eyes open and makedecisions, make political
(54:45):
decisions, make life decisions,understanding.
You know the um, the situationthat we're in and um and how
it's likely that this isn't justgoing to all of a sudden.
You know we'll wake up one dayand everything's going to be
good again.
We're going to be living withthis for a while.
Raul Lopez (55:01):
Yeah, yeah and it's.
It's like owning a home.
You always have like two typesof people that own a home.
It's like the person who paysattention to every crack in the
foundation and says, okay,something's coming up, Let me
keep an eye on it.
And then you have the otherguys who are like is this hole
in my wall supposed to be here?
Is this okay, and then the housecrumbles.
So yeah, it's keeping your eyeon that.
I think it's important,especially for people of color,
(55:22):
where we tend to get the shortend of the stick sometimes.
If we're not vigilant on what'sgoing on around us, we're going
to get caught up again, and weneed to be able to make sure
that we know what's going on,regardless of which way you
think you're, it's the right wayyou should be.
You should be vigilant, so butbut yeah, yeah, man, so so I
(55:43):
know, on campus you're, you'vealso done.
You've done a whole bunch ofstuff on campus, I think you
started.
You told me a little bitearlier about this Latinx
graduation that you guys arehosting at Boston University.
Can you tell me something abouta little bit about that?
Raul Fernandez (55:56):
Yeah, so this is
the first time that BU is
holding this sort of Latinxstudent graduation.
It's for undergrad and graduatestudents that are graduating
from BU.
It's going to be this reallydope celebration, I think.
Last night I heard over 200graduates have registered to be
there with their families andeverything, so we have a lot of
people there and they asked meto give a speech at the thing.
(56:20):
You know I sort of I have to putthat together real quick.
It's next week, but as,thinking about it, it's
interesting that BU and it'sreally driven by students and an
advisor that are making thishappen.
So this isn't to give theuniversity administration credit
for saying we should behonoring Latino students.
(56:41):
That's not happening.
The students are making thishappen right, and working to get
some money from theadministration to make it happen
, but this is happening for thevery first time at BU at a time
when similar celebrations inother parts of the country are
either being defunded or banned,um, which is like talk about
(57:04):
like, come on like if you don'tif you don't want the curriculum
to make you know white peoplefeel bad, because white people
in the past did bad things likeor even today, like if you want
that, okay.
If you think certain books aretoo salacious for kids to read,
okay.
But the idea that you're goingto say that these folks can't
(57:27):
come together and celebratetheir accomplishments in a world
where not enough of us get tothat point to have that
celebration and you're not goingto fund it and you're not going
to allow it to happen, it'sjust I mean, it's just
absolutely.
It's offensive is what it is,and so I remember.
Raul Lopez (57:49):
I was in.
Raul Fernandez (57:50):
Texas at UT
Austin recently and learned
about how their celebration gotcanceled.
Thankfully, alums and someothers have come together.
Put some money together so thatthey can do it for their Latino
students there even though theuniversity is not supportive of
(58:10):
it.
It just makes it even moreimportant that, in places where
we can do these kinds of things,that we do it and we do it big,
and that we show out and cometogether.
I think it's going to be sogreat because it's not just
about the students but it's alsoabout their families and their
friends and recognizing thefaculty, recognizing just like
(58:41):
how much it takes to get to getone, to get one of us, um there,
and how many people it takeshow many supports, how many
opportunities um to make it fromhere to there and and to really
celebrate that I just, I justthink it's so important, so I'm
excited for that yeah, no, it'sdope.
Raul Lopez (58:52):
I mean, uh, when you
you made the announcement about
that in our group chat, I waslike you know that that's
awesome Because you know we comeinto college.
We feel, like I mentionedbefore, like you're just a
little brown dot in a white wave.
You don't know, you don't feellike you belong.
And then you make your life oncampus, you make community, you
build something of yourself oncampus.
(59:13):
Then you get your graduationand for people who don't know,
BU is a big school, you ofyourself on campus.
Then you get your graduation.
And for people who don't know,BU is a big school, you know,
there's five, like 5,000 peopleat my graduation.
You know like thousands ofpeople at graduation and you're
like, all right, well, you know,at least I got my friends here.
And then you get split up intoyour smaller graduation based
off of your major, and there'seven less people I know and it's
like, oh, I got like one or twoLatino friends that are at the
(59:33):
graduation and maybe some ofyour friends can get go to one
and you might not meet see theother ones.
You don't get to see some ofthe people.
You've literally been spendingevery week at these meetings, at
these groups, at these events,you know, building your family,
your community on campus, andyou don't get to see them
graduate because you've beensplit up, You've been separated,
you know.
So I, you know that that'sawesome, man.
I think you know it helpshopefully make everybody feel
(59:55):
better about what they're doingand gives them an opportunity to
feel like, hey, I get to see myfamily graduate as well, not
just myself, you know.
So, kudos to you on that man.
That's that's freaking awesome.
And so usually around the tailend of my conversation, I like
(01:00:21):
to kind of come back and ask youto kind of reflect on your life
and think about.
Raul Fernandez (01:00:23):
You know, hey,
if I could go back and talk to a
younger version of raul andgive him some advice, what's
something you'd tell yourself?
Oh man, um, I think I think wedon't spend enough time when
we're younger thinking about andunderstanding, like finances.
Um, I I remember when I wentand maybe it was still happening
when you were there, I'm notsure, but they used to be in the
student center.
(01:00:44):
They used to be, the tableswere there and there would be
all these credit card companiesand they would have, I remember,
discover Card and all that, andthey would have these t-shirts
and be like hey here, sign upfor a credit card, we'll give
you a t-shirt, and everybody'slike, oh, I want a t-shirt.
And then literally signed up fora credit card, immediately went
(01:01:09):
into debt and took years to payat 25% interest rate or
whatever ridiculous number itwas, and then took forever to
pay off like $9,000, ended uptaking, you know, over a decade
to pay off right, and so, youknow, that's the kind of stuff
that I wish I would have knownabout when I was younger, to
watch out for and it's, you know, some of it's natural, like
when you're young you don'tthink about being 50 or 60 or
whatever.
It is right, like you don'tthink about that, but, um, but
(01:01:31):
at the same time I think, um, Ithink there are folks that have
the social capital around them,like folks that understand
credit scores and get their kidsfrom when they're the youngest
age possible, they get them intothe system to be able to start
building their credit score andhave that credit age that's so
(01:01:55):
important to you score and allthat kind of stuff.
And it is, as far as I can tell, even for those of us that also
have bachelor's degrees likeeverybody else, master's, like
everybody else, doctorate, likeeverybody else are still not in
the same place financially aspeople who had that social
capital and who had thatgenerational wealth.
(01:02:15):
No-transcript some point.
(01:02:41):
Here's a couple of things.
Just get yourself ready forthat.
I think.
I think that's it.
Other than that, I mean I madeyou know I made lots of mistakes
.
I don't really believe in sortof going back and regrets and
everything.
I think the only thing I regretfrom undergrad is not studying
abroad, and I maintain that theonly reason I didn't is because
no one even mentioned it to me.
(01:03:01):
If somebody that was older andthat I respected said, hey, you
should go study abroad first, Iprobably would have done it.
Raul Lopez (01:03:10):
I just no one did no
one ever mentioned it.
Raul Fernandez (01:03:13):
But outside of
that it just you know um like I
feel, good where I'm at, and ifI start going back and changing
things that I wouldn't be whereI'm at, right I feel pretty good
about where I'm at.
I wouldn't do that, but but Ithink you know if there was
anything I could do to sort ofget to where I am now, not not
(01:03:34):
professionally, but just likementally, like like
understanding, seeing the worldas it is, if I can get there
sooner.
I'd probably want to do that,but I also had some good years
in there where I was just just ahot mess having a good time, so
I wouldn't want to take thataway from me either.
Yeah, exactly.
Raul Lopez (01:03:50):
Yeah, don't take
away my fun times.
And it's funny you mentionedthose credit card things,
because I remember they werestill on when I when I was an
undergrad it was.
They were there all over theplace and there was a.
There was a time where I was abroke kid.
Um, I had credit cards that Iwasn't paying off because, you
know, I did what you you'retalking about.
I signed up for credit cards andracked them up and then
(01:04:12):
couldn't afford to pay them offand so my credit was shit.
And I'm walking home from classand they're giving out a free
Domino's pizza if you sign upfor a credit card.
So I had no money, I had nodinner, and so I was like sure,
and I signed up for a creditcard.
I knew it was going to getdenied, but I got a free pizza
out of it.
So, yeah, they were there andthey were giving you for your
(01:04:34):
credit.
You know it's like, oh, wow,man, it's like that, like what's
it called the apple in Adam andEve.
It's like you know, here's apizza and I'll take your soul.
It's like, yeah.
I'm gonna take your credit scorewith me, but yeah, no they're
assholes about that, yeah.
Raul Fernandez (01:04:51):
But, that's the
thing as I think about like that
, like economic developmentstuff is really in community.
It's really what I'm focused onright now.
Like outside of education islike how do we help people level
up?
You notice, earlier I talkedabout people being underpaid,
not low income, because lowincome almost like seems like
it's saying something about them.
Raul Lopez (01:05:10):
Right.
Raul Fernandez (01:05:11):
But underpaid
says something about the system,
because there's people thatwork jobs just as hard as
anybody.
They do all the stuff theRepublicansans say they should
do.
Right, you lift yourself up by,go get a job.
Not everybody's gonna start abusiness.
Some people are gonna have towork, like in, in, in minimum
wage jobs and not necessarily beable to do that.
Um, but it's things that weeither want people to do or need
(01:05:32):
people to do right, like whowants to go to a restaurant,
like you know, seat themselves,go in the back, make their own
food, serve it to themselves andthen pay the bill on the way
out.
That's called being at home.
Raul Lopez (01:05:44):
You know what I mean
.
Raul Fernandez (01:05:46):
But you want to
go out.
Well, if you want restaurants toexist, you got to recognize
that people live off of whatthey make working there, right,
and these are underpaid peoplewho work their asses off, and
it's not just in the restaurants, it's all kinds of industries
and they just don't get paidenough to live somewhere to put
their kids in childcare, whichthey need to, and then also
(01:06:09):
eventually to like maybe levelup by having their kids go to
college or whatever.
And these are people that alsoare performing necessary
functions, or at least things wewant people to do in whatever.
And these are people that alsoare performing necessary
functions, or at least things wewant people to do in society.
And so I just think you know,really referencing like the fact
that these folks are underpaidis really important, and
thinking about how we can helpthem level up by fighting for
(01:06:31):
better minimum wages foreverybody and better benefits
and time off, especially whenyou have a kid or taking care of
somebody who needs it.
And then also you know thingslike basic income that allow
people, you know the supportthey need and the dignity to
take care of themselves andtheir family.
(01:06:54):
You know, all those things arejust like are to me no brainers
and so important and wouldimprove everything else would
improve educational outcomes,would improve health outcomes,
would reduce crime, reducehomelessness, all things that
would be really good.
(01:07:14):
And it seems like it's thething that people have the
hardest time doing is sayinglike yeah, I'll give you, I'll
create food pantries on everycorner I'll you know whatever
you know, whatever, those kindsof programs are fine, but the
idea of just giving people moremoney is just so and we have it
is the problem.
The thing is, we have it andjust the idea of giving people
more money, even when we have it, is just seems like like so
(01:07:39):
wrong even to democrats, by theway, and and I'm hoping that in
this next generation we canshift that and understand that
like we're going to get betteroutcomes for everyone, for
society, if people are haveenough that they can afford to
live safely, that they can havetheir kids taken well care of.
(01:08:02):
I think that's really important.
The last thing I'll say is yousaid last two years ago now
maybe I was at jury duty and Iwas asked to serve on this jury
and I love jury duty.
Some people are trying to getout of it like jury and I love
jury duty.
Some people are trying to getout of it like openly, and I
love it.
I think it's great.
Raul Lopez (01:08:21):
Every time I'm on
jury duty I'm like I hope I get
picked.
I'd love to be in court.
Raul Fernandez (01:08:26):
I was like I
know I'll make a decent decision
.
I don't know about all theseother people, so I'm going to
try to get on it.
And so I did get picked.
I was like all right, this isthe first time ever and it ended
up being this case whereeverybody involved was Brazilian
everybody and immigrants, andthey lived in this building in
Quincy and in Massachusetts.
(01:08:47):
And basically all of them workedminimum wage jobs or under the
table jobs like off the bookskind of stuff right, all of them
.
Away jobs or under the tablejobs like off the books kind of
stuff right, all of them.
And these parents, they forthese, these two girls, they,
they basically had no realoptions for affordable child
care.
So there was a woman in thebuilding that said I'll watch
(01:09:08):
you kids.
Um, and uh, long story short.
Um, at best, these kids werebeing basically sat in front of
a TV for hours on end and thatwas, that was the kind of child
care they got.
And at worst, what happenedunfortunately sorry listeners is
that the two girls weremolested by the husband of the
(01:09:30):
woman that was running thisunlicensed daycare in the
building.
Right, it was.
It was terrifying, it wastraumatizing.
All of us are crying in thebuilding, right, and it was
terrifying, it was traumatizing.
All of us are crying in thecourtroom and everything.
But I'm also thinking about thedifference between what those
kids are getting and my kid andhow because I'm not wealthy, but
because I got enough to affordit Like, my kid is in high
(01:09:53):
quality childcare where I knowshe's safe.
Every day, I get picturesthroughout the day of what she's
doing, notifications ifanything happens, you know,
maybe she tripped or whatever.
She's also being engaged theentire day, with no screens,
with people who have degrees inearly childhood education.
(01:10:14):
In early childhood education,the gap between what people with
money can get for their kids atthe earliest ages, before
public school even starts, andthose who don't have money.
The gap between what those twofolks get is so big.
It, in my mind, explains nearlyeverything about the gaps we
(01:10:37):
see later on in education.
Is those first five yearsbefore school even starts, is is
my kid getting, you know,engaged in?
They also have my wife and I,you know, doing our part in it
too, but nowhere near what theseteachers are doing for her and
how her language, my daughter'slanguage, seems to have exploded
.
Every day.
(01:10:58):
She's got new words and talkingabout new things and having new
experiences that I couldn'tprovide right Compared to what
those you know, those girlsfaced in Quincy and even without
the horrors that they faced,like even just not that kind of
level of engagement and learningthat right there, if we could
focus on fixing one thingimmediately and sort of throwing
(01:11:22):
whatever money we haveavailable to that is producing,
you know, making sure thatthere's high quality childcare
for every kid out there at nocost frankly like that would be
the biggest thing that we can do.
And so that's something I'vebeen, I've been trying to push
for here and I'm going to befighting to make that happen,
(01:11:44):
but it's it's you know thatalone.
If, if, if people don't want towant to give, give money to, to,
to, to families, all that kindof BS that people feel about
that.
I think that's wrong too.
But but at the very least, um,hopefully we can agree that the
kids between the age of zero andfive deserve the best possible
(01:12:04):
chance um to get a start in life.
We can, we can get down on that.
Raul Lopez (01:12:09):
Yeah, yeah, man,
yeah, I mean, I know it's a a
lot to unwrap on that one, butyeah, I mean, from the cost of
childcare has gone crazy, and soI can.
When I would have my daughterwhen she was younger and she's
10 now.
Seven years ago, when we weredealing with this stuff, it was,
it was crazy trying to find agood daycare, you know, and
that's with making decent money,like you said.
You know it's still back andforth whether or not.
(01:12:31):
You know, should we spend 300more here or go that way?
So it's, you know it's scarywhen you have money, it's scary
when you don't.
So it's, it's a good thing tochange.
But, and excuse me, so I guess.
Finally, my last actualquestion that I have is you know
how do you say success inSpanglish?
Raul Fernandez (01:12:53):
You know, man, I
think for me it's about
community, it's about like,really any success I have is
because there were other peoplethat kept me from dropping out,
other people that kept me frombeing homeless, other people
that helped give me food when Ididn't have it, who helped me
(01:13:17):
out with money when I didn'thave it.
Just having that kind of safetynet of people that are going to
hold you when you need it andlift you up when you need it,
has made all the difference forme.
And so I think there's a lot ofpieces to success Spanish or
otherwise, but for me, being incommunity with you and the other
(01:13:40):
fellas and and with all theseother people where I live now,
like how we look out for eachother, like like that's the
thing that made the differencefor me.
Raul Lopez (01:13:49):
Nice, Awesome man.
Well, Raul, thank you so muchyou know, for everything and I
appreciate all the work you'redoing out there at Boston
University.
And, once again, thank you somuch for being on the show.
Raul Fernandez (01:14:02):
Thank you
brother.
Raul Lopez (01:14:03):
I appreciate it, and
so for everyone else.
Thank you so much for joining.
I hope you'll come back nexttime, as we continue to learn
how to say success in Spanishyou.