February 18, 2025 • 51 mins
In today’s episode, Hayes Hitchens talks with us about his journey starting and building Moondance Adventures.
Moondance is a teen adventure travel program that sends over 2000 teenagers each summer on trips across five continents and over twenty countries with a commitment to foster personal growth, leadership skills, problem solving, decision making and a love for the outdoors.
For some backstory, Hayes was the dean of students and director of summer programs at my school and I remember him talking about starting Moondance Adventures when I was in the 7th grade.
So, this is a super meaningful reconnection and WOW - to see what he has accomplished is just so inspiring and heart-warming.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to how I Built my Small Business.
I'm Anne McGinty, your host,and in today's episode, hayes
Hitchens talks with us about hisjourney starting and building
Moondance Adventures.
Moondance is a teen adventuretravel program that sends over
2,000 teenagers each summer ontrips across five continents and
(00:30):
over 20 countries, with acommitment to foster personal
growth, leadership skills and alove for the outdoors.
For some backstory, hayes wasthe dean of students and
director of summer Programs atmy school, and I remember him
talking about starting MoondanceAdventures when I was in the
(00:51):
seventh grade, so this is asuper meaningful reconnection
and, wow, to see what he hasaccomplished is just so
inspiring and heartwarming.
You can find a link through toMoondance in the episode's
description Before we dive in.
(01:11):
If you enjoy today's episode,please share it with someone who
could benefit from the insightsand stories.
I'm an indie show and yoursupport helps me reach and
inspire more listeners.
Let's get started.
Hey, it is so good to see youafter all of these years.
(01:33):
Thanks for coming on the show.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Well, I'm so glad to be here, anne Wonderful, to
reconnect.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
So can we go all the way back to when you were
working at Lovett and we werestanding on that grassy hill
outside the classrooms and Iremember you talking about how
you were going to startMoondance.
Can you take us back there?
How did you even get the ideafor Moondance?
Speaker 2 (01:58):
So I left Lovett in 95, made a decision in actually
the fall of 94 to leave becauseI was chasing an old summer camp
.
I was trying to buy an oldsummer camp in North Carolina
and been working on this.
I'd been able to raise moneyfor this and this was my dream.
My grandparents owned a summercamp in northern Wisconsin, so,
anyway, the property that I wastrying to buy fell through on
(02:18):
Friday, the 13th of October 1995.
They sold it to somebody elseand I thought what am I going to
do?
The sun came up the next day.
That's when I had this idea fora adventure program and that's
when I put this together forMoondance.
So the concept of Moondance, italmost came out of sink or swim
and the idea that I'd alwayshad would be to own a
(02:39):
traditional summer camp.
But that fell through and thishas turned out to be a lot
better.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
So once you decided that you wanted to start an
adventure program for teens, howdid you actually get it up and
running?
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Well, the part about a lot of this is sink or swim,
right.
Either I had to make somethinghappen or I was going to have to
find something else to do.
So I had this idea, shared itwith a girlfriend at the time
who was with Anderson Consulting.
She wasn't crazy about the idea.
But I also met with anotherfriend of mine, Marsha Hill, who
ended up saying, okay, this iswhat we're going to do, and boom
, boom, boom, and a week laterwe had a name, we had a business
(03:14):
idea, we had a concept puttingtogether a business plan and we
had the first year.
So that was probably Novemberof 95.
And then we operated, firstsummer in 96.
34 kids ended up going.
Not quite sure whether we'regoing to make it to year two,
but we had a great time on yearone.
But year two ramped it up andthen ramped it up a little bit
(03:35):
more the year after that andthen, once we started traveling
internationally, it's reallykind of taken off since then.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Well, so 1995, 1996, I mean, Google was hardly a
thing.
Google was not a thing.
Websites were not really athing.
So how did you get anyone to?
Speaker 2 (03:55):
even know about your business.
So I had a couple of catalogsfrom a couple of our competitors
, so that was it.
So there was no Google, therewas no search at all and it was
just trying to figure it out.
So the best way to do this wasjust it was that word of mouth.
So I had the connections atLovett, had the connections in
the South, I had the connectionsin North Carolina where I'm
originally from, and then I'mjust getting the word out and
spread it.
(04:15):
So my cousins own the camp up inWisconsin.
We got a handful of kids out ofthere, some kids from Lovett,
kids from Westminster and then asmattering of kids from around
the country Great kid out ofChicago, another kid out of
Dallas.
I'm not quite sure where theyfound out about us because it
was really really hard.
Back then I traveled a littlebit in the South just making
presentations in Atlanta andCharlotte and Nashville and
(04:37):
Birmingham, but I wasn'ttraveling the country at the
time, so I'm not quite surewhere a handful of those found
us, but they did find us and Ithink they all had a pretty good
time and a lot of them cameback and then they brought their
friends.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
So it must have been word of mouth.
And with the 34 kids signing up, I mean this was all new to you
, right?
You'd never run a program likethis by yourself.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Never and I had led, you know I'd taken groups of
kids from Lovett when I wasthere on various trips, but
never putting together abusiness, never understanding
all the intricacies that comefrom running a business, from
the risk management to the legal, everything that entailed all
that.
So you know, what I didn't knowdidn't hurt me at all because I
(05:24):
didn't know a lot, and where itreally kind of turned for us
was really understanding thehospitality piece of working
with people and working withkids, and I'd always loved that
when I was at Lubbock I alwaysloved the kids and I loved the
parents and I didn't always lovethe administration or just the
politics of a private school.
So being on my own was great.
And then I had a handful offolks that believed in me and
(05:45):
said, okay, this might work.
But again, it's hard to make asmall business operating year
two or three or four or five.
But we were able to get to yeartwo and of course in 96, it was
the Olympics in Atlanta.
So I thought we would get allthese kids from Atlanta and we
did.
We got a handful, got Whitneyand a handful of other folks
that ended up joining us.
But after that then that wordstarted spreading, and then by
(06:08):
97, 98, 99, we really kind oftook off then.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
So what was that first summer actually like?
Like, I'm sure that there weresome hiccups.
I mean, nobody, nobody starts abusiness and has it be smooth
sailing.
So what was it actually like?
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Hindsight.
What was going on.
I mean, the trailer popped offthe van.
That's the first bump that wehit over there and they're going
.
Oh my gosh, we've got to beable to do that.
But we operated in NorthCarolina, had two groups that
went to North Carolina.
We split up, matter of fact,one of my co-leaders, a girl
named Casey Cram Marshall, whowent to Lubbock.
So Casey was my co-leader andthen they had another group.
(06:50):
They went one direction, wewent the other direction.
This two-week trip in NorthCarolina.
Then I went out to Wyoming, toJackson Hole, and we had two
groups out.
There Was on that first one andthen JoJo was on the second one
and ended up having smallgroups.
And then JoJo was on the secondone and ended up having small
groups, probably seven to eightkids backpacking in the Tetons.
We didn't have permits.
I'm not sure that you can leteverybody know that we didn't
(07:11):
have permits.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
It's been long enough .
Statute of limitations,three-year period of time.
It's over, that's gone.
That's gone.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
But we operated, wanted to make sure the kids had
a great time, a lot of fun, butalso a lot of challenge.
And my background was not onlyat Lovett and the campus but I
did it at Knowles course, theNational Outdoor Leadership
School and Outward Bound courseand took some of those concepts
into it, quickly realized that'snot what kids really wanted.
Kids wanted to connect, kidswanted to be challenged, kids
(07:40):
also wanted to have fun.
And you can do all that withouthaving to really be something
that's so physically hard thatthey said I never want to do
that again.
And so probably 50, 55 percentof those kids ended up going
back for a second trip.
But the other thing too, andy, Ididn't know a whole lot about
business, and so I was trying tofigure out what was going on.
(08:02):
So not only was I reading, butit was business school in real
time and trying to figure out,okay, how do you make payroll
and how do you take care ofeverybody.
But again, I didn't know a lot,which was probably helpful,
because if I'd known a lot Iprobably wouldn't be doing this.
And that's kind of the greatpart about it, I think sometimes
are you entrepreneurial?
Is everybody that way?
I'm not quite sure, but what Idid know since I was 18 is that
(08:23):
I wanted to get into the summercampus, as I was 19 at the time.
So after my freshman year ofcollege I knew that's the
direction I wanted to go.
So I understood the camp ofbusiness, but I didn't
understand this business as much, and so that helped me at least
, having those years over thereworking with kids and again, I
mean 30 years into it and I'mstill not a great businessman,
but we're in business for 30years.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
I think you are a better businessman than you are
acknowledging.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Well, we'll see.
We'll see.
It's been a fun run.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
So when you mentioned the hospitality piece as
something that you wanted tobring in, what do you mean?
Speaker 2 (08:55):
That Maya Angelou quote.
You know how do people feelwhen you walk away.
It's not exactly what MayaAngelou said, but it is one of
those things.
There's a guy named Danny Meyer.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Yeah, he went to my college.
He went to Trinity, collegeyeah.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
He did.
So that's exactly right.
So Danny's done a marvelous job.
He really talks abouthospitality quite a bit and
there's a there's another guythat worked for him, named Will
Garita, that wrote a book calledunreasonable hospitality that
just came out a couple of yearsago.
It's a fabulous book.
But once I saw that, once westarted focusing more on what's
that service piece like andwhat's the hospitality piece
like and how do people feel, andnot just the kids, but how do
(09:27):
the leaders feel, are they takencare of?
And how do the parents feel,are they communicated enough?
Because in our business it's alittle bit roots and wings, and
so parents give those kids thoseroots, but they got to let them
spread the wings in order tofind out what's going on.
So there's not dailycommunication with the parents,
(09:49):
and they had a hard time withthat.
They had to trust me, they hadto trust us, they had to trust
our system that we were doingeverything right and their kids
were safe.
But they were also changed, andso when you go climb a big
mountain or you go on a longeradventure of a backpacking trip
or a rafting trip, it's a littlesomething that comes from that.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
Well, and so back then you didn't have to worry so
much about, I guess, lettingthe kids spread their wings
because the technology, you know, cell phones didn't really
exist.
They did not.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
They did not really exist.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
So what is your perspective on devices and how
do you handle this, with teensprobably wanting to bring them
on the trips?
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Everybody has a smartphone.
Every single kid has asmartphone, so a couple thousand
kids.
We take the phones up as soonas they arrive, so they text
their parents I'm here and thenwe take them up Nice, and they
do not touch their phone untilthey walk through security on
the way out at the end of thetrip, and they love it.
And parents have a harder timewith that than the kids do, but
(10:43):
kids love it and oftentimes,where they get their phone back,
say I don't want my phone back,I like being able to talk to
other people, and it's become abigger problem.
Year after year, it's become abigger and bigger problem.
So what it was like in 2010 iscompletely different than it is
now, so that's probably one ofthe best things for them.
(11:03):
The other thing that we do,which is really great, is we
take their watches away, so theydon't know what time it is.
So we talk about living in themoment.
So think about this too, annie.
So we think about so.
Our greatest competitor is time,and so time is fleeting for a
teenager or for a young adult orfor an older adult.
And if we take that concept ofokay, you had this little window
(11:25):
of time and then it's going tobe gone, and so two weeks is a
small amount of time, and theytalk about if you live to be 80,
you might get 30,000 days outof your life.
30,000 days, so we're talking14.
And what we're trying to do inthat 14 days is give them
something that's so impactfulthat in 10 years or 25 years
(11:45):
they're still talking about whatthat experience might've been
like.
As we go through this, we allknow that we forget a lot of
stuff.
We forget a lot of things thathappened to us.
Some things might trigger that.
What we try to do is try togive them a moment of time, a
memory of that moment that theyreflect back on years later.
(12:07):
And it could be anything.
It could be hiking up in Alaska, it could be climbing a big
mountain, it could be hangingout with some kids that you just
met and becoming really, reallyclose with them.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
This is incredible work that you're doing, because
I think that, especially withthe rise of technology, kids are
getting more and moredisconnected and realizing that
it's not what makes them happy.
But the technology is alsobuilt to be so addictive that
they can't really step away fromit unless somebody does
actually take it off their hands.
(12:40):
So, my gosh, thank you so muchfor doing what you're doing
hands.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
So, my gosh, thank you so much for doing what
you're doing.
Well, we asked parents in afollow-up evaluation.
100% of the parents supportthat decision and I would say
almost 100% of the kids supportthat decision.
They want to have an excuse tonot have their phone with them.
I have a 19-year-old and yeah,I see the addiction right there
and they'll sit in a room with abunch of other kids and they're
texting back and forth.
(13:07):
They're not even talking, andso communication is critical,
and so we take the phones up andallow them to talk, and so it
might take them a day or two tokind of warm up.
What is this like?
What do you mean?
We're going to sit around andwe're going to talk about some
of this stuff, and that's that'sreally, really helpful for them
to be able to talk about.
And the other thing too, annie,that has been great is that we
(13:28):
allow one friend to go, but wedon't allow you to go with two
friends, and so you might beable to.
So you feel a little bitinsecure or you feel like you
need to take a buddy with you.
You can take one, but you can'ttake two friends.
Meaning that you're going tomeet 10 new kids and that
concept has been from the get-goand so we had all these kids
out of the Buckhead area thatwanted to go together and I
wasn't going to take everybody,and that was a decision that I
(13:50):
made right off the bat.
And if we failed, that was thedecision I was comfortable about
leaving with.
I didn't want to take everybodythat knew each other, because
when you don't know each other,you actually are more open to
talk about things that happen toyou, as opposed to being with a
bunch of friends that know youreally, really well.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Yeah, I can see all of the benefits.
I mean getting pushed outsideof your comfort zone just a
little bit and, as you're saying, like feeling open because
nobody knows anything about you.
So when you have like a groupof teenagers, most of who don't
know each other, together forthe first time, without their
devices, what do you do aboutgetting them to know each other
(14:29):
and breaking the ice so that youcan kind of get on with the
trip?
Speaker 2 (14:34):
It's easy, all kinds of games that they can end up
playing just to just to knoweach other, and it might take a
day or two.
This is what I've seen.
So you have two sisters and abrother, right yeah?
So the girls.
Girls are much more open aboutrelationships, about meeting new
people.
Guys are a little bitstandoffish, and so it's.
The girls will be right there,bringing everybody in and
(14:56):
bringing the group together,getting to know everybody's
names and getting to know eachother.
In that first 24 hours we do allkinds of things to try to get
to know each other, to know eachother.
In that first 24 hours we doall kinds of things to try to
get to know each other.
But sometimes it might takethose boys a day or two, or
sometimes five or six days tokind of get out of that shell.
And all of a sudden theyrealize, hey, this is pretty
good and I can share some thingsthat I think about, but I've
(15:18):
never been able to tell anybody.
I can't tell my parents, Ican't tell my friends, I can't.
And all of a sudden they'retelling these other kids on
their, on their trip, and so thegroup dynamics, the shared
experience, is the magic thathappens out there, and when you
get kids together, all of asudden you put them on a belay
line or they're out there,whether they're rock climbing
and somebody has to support themover there, or they're in a
boat and they're having a paddleand everybody on the left side
has to you out.
And then if you go outbackpacking, sometimes it's kind
(15:47):
of tough.
So the best thing to do whenyou're backpacking is talk and
to talk to each other, andthat's that's a cool concept for
kids to figure out is thatthey're having these
conversations and finding outfrom these other people that
they just met the day before andby day 12 or 13, they're crying
because they hate to saygoodbye, and it happens time and
time again.
So it's something that kidsneed and, moving forward, I
(16:10):
believe strongly that issomething that they will look
back on.
Finally, and hopefully thiswill go on for another 30 plus
years.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Yeah, there is something I think they've even
studied this about being in theoutdoors that way what it does
to your nervous system.
I imagine that you have been toI don't know how many countries
.
At this point, what stands outto you as some of your most
memorable experiences and trips?
From running all of yourdifferent trips through
(16:38):
Moondance?
Speaker 2 (16:39):
I've been very fortunate to travel a good bit.
One of the things that I talkabout is when you go to some
place that's so spectacular thatyou're planning to come back
before you've actually left.
That's pretty good.
So East Africa is prettyspecial to me.
I've been fortunate to havegone a number of times and been
up Kilimanjaro a couple ofdifferent times.
My daughter climbing it lastsummer was very special to me.
(17:02):
Although I was not there, itwas probably one of the most
proud moments of my life justknowing, because it's pretty
tough physically.
But what I'd love to do also isjust to go out and see kids and
see them in their element andsee what's going on over there.
There's a very humblingexperience as an older owner of
the business going over thereand hanging out with a bunch of
teenagers and then going, okay,who's the old man over here?
(17:23):
And then once we warm up alittle bit, it's okay.
But I don't want to detract fromtheir experience.
And so I was fortunate to climbthe Grand Teton a bunch of
times or Mount Rainier a bunchof times with some kids, and
that experience was prettyspecial.
But probably the most impactfulis just going out and seeing
kids at different times of theirtrip and just spending a little
(17:44):
bit of time with them and thenwhen they come back as trip
leaders, that's special also asI continue to travel.
I traveled to Europe a coupleof times last summer, saw about
12 different groups in Sloveniaand Croatia and Madeira and
Morocco, and that was all partof the perks of being a business
owner.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Oh my gosh, you picked the best business ever.
I love it.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Love it.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
I love it and I don't even do it.
I wish I were doing what you'redoing.
And so now you are in your what?
29th or 30th season.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Going into our 30th season, yep.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
You mentioned like over 2000 kids traveling.
I think you guys cover severalcontinents and several countries
.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Afghanistan has 21 countries, 11 states.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
How have you done this?
Like you mentioned getting tripleaders who were previous
participants, but how else areyou putting this all together?
I mean, this is, it's seasonal,and then it sounds like an
influx of leaders and studentsand logistics and how are you
doing this?
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Well, I'm not doing it on my own.
And then it sounds like aninflux of leaders and students
and logistics.
And how are you doing this?
Well, I'm not doing it on myown.
I'll tell you that One of themost important things that I did
early on is realize that I needsome other people involved to
help us get that going.
So we have there are 18full-time folks over here right
now.
It is a seasonal business.
We operate from June until theend of July, but we're full time
, and so we kick off our newseason about two weeks after we
(19:10):
complete the previous season.
And so we've got gosh.
We had about a thousand kidsthat signed up in the first 30
minutes last year and it crashedour website.
So we changed that wholestructure up of how we're doing
that.
That was great.
I have a team that's dedicatedjust to the admissions.
I have a team that's justdedicated just to the operations
.
I have a team that's justdedicated to staffing.
I have a finance team that'sdedicated to all that and I'm
(19:31):
just besaging all of that.
Make sure that it's all comingtogether and working well.
So it's not been without somechallenges and a lot of bumps
along the way, but having thesystem set up over there where
everybody knows what they needto take care of, and it works
well.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
Well, it sounds like it has just continued to grow
since you first started and mustbe working well With 18 people
working full time.
How many are working during thepeak for June and July?
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Every single one.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
And then leaders.
Though how many leaders do youhave?
Speaker 2 (20:03):
We had about 170 last summer.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Oh my gosh, this is amazing.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
And they're all remarkable folks and the model
for finding the leaders has beena little bit different over the
years, originally going aftermore of those that had the hard
skills of being able to operatein a backcountry type setting,
realizing that that's not.
You need some of those, but youalso need those with a really
soft skills, and so some of ourtrips are not as physically
(20:30):
challenging.
So going to Africa, to Tanzania, to Zanzibar, may not be having
the hard skills, but you haveto have the people skills, you
have to have the communicationskills, you have to have the
leadership skills in order tomanage all that.
So we go to Chapel Hill and wego to UVA and W&L and Georgia
and Vanderbilt and a lot ofgreat schools recruiting trip
(20:51):
leaders.
And then we have some that arein a seasonal business, that
might've gotten out of collegeand maybe working in the ski
industry or something that theymight have another summer
available, but typically by thetime they're 24, 25, they've
aged out, and we have a couplethat are a little bit older than
that.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Have you ever had a situation where a leader was a
no-show?
Speaker 2 (21:10):
We've never had a leader that's a no-show.
We had a leader that withdrewtwo weeks before the summer
started, which was a littledisappointing, but it was also.
It was a great opportunity forus to realize we will be very
stringent on folks that come in.
So if we have 170, we had threeor four that didn't make it
through staff training last yearwe just realized, okay, they
weren't the right fit and wemade a change.
(21:31):
And during the summer sometimesthose things happen.
So we have a surplus of tripleaders that we can pull and
move some folks around.
But I think last summer we had172 different trips operating
around the world and this summerwe'll have 200.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Wow, If there's anybody that's younger listening
in who is curious aboutpossibly being a leader.
What does it require and howextensive is the training that
they get?
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Well, the application process is twofold.
So the original applicationcomes in.
If they are strong enough, theyget the full application.
If it's not, then we'll justpolitely say this may not be the
right fit.
Right now we probably have 75already on board that are hired.
We have probably 250applications already.
We'll have roughly 500applications for about, I say,
(22:17):
170 spots, but 60 to 70 of thosewill be taken up by folks from
last year.
So about 500 applications forabout 100 new positions this
year, and so it's really prettygreat to be able to go through
this.
They'll go through threeinterviews before me and then I
do the fourth interview.
And another wonderful thing thewoman that's overseeing our
staffing team, suzanne Hollis,is a Lubbock graduate, fantastic
(22:40):
, unbelievable woman, and she'sthe one that kind of spearheads
all that.
So they don't even get to meuntil they've already confirmed
that they are phenomenal.
And I'm the fourth interview,and that's either to make a trip
leader or maybe it's not theright fit.
But we've been very fortunateand you know, it's all about the
people that you're working withand it's all about who we bring
(23:02):
on board.
And so we'll take everybody toNorth Carolina.
We'll train them for two weeks.
We spend two weeks at atraditional camp over there and
then go through everything fromsunup to sundown every day and
just learning how we operate.
We'll spend four days of asimulated trip in the Pisgah
National Forest if you rememberthe Joe trip and then they end
up coming back to Nashville.
We'll spend a couple of dayshere and it's like throwing a
(23:22):
pebble in a pond and then peoplescatter all over the world from
the Nashville InternationalAirport.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
What an incredible leadership opportunity for any
of these kids to get to do.
It's an amazing leadershipopportunity.
Oh my gosh, I want my kids todo this.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
So there was that travel snafu last year.
Right, it was in.
I think it's a lot of parties.
Do you remember this?
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Oh yes, there was a.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Microsoft glitch that threw everybody off.
So Delta Airlines said nounaccompanied minors were able
to fly.
Well, we had 60 kids that camefrom Belize into Hartsfield
Airport and I had three tripleaders with them.
They were all seniors incollege, one was going to law
school, one was the president ofher university and another
(24:06):
dynamic woman.
Long story short, they wereable to maneuver all 60 of these
kids onto a flight.
After Delta Airlines said nounaccompanied minors could get
on there.
They got every single kid homethat day.
So I wrote them pretty quick.
I didn't even know about thisbecause I was flying back from
Africa and I didn't know aboutthis until they had gotten
everybody.
And I said this may be the mostimportant leadership position
(24:30):
that you have been in at thispoint in your life, and I
believe that because they wereable to talk Delta Airlines into
letting these kids go.
And so, yes, it's about problemsolving, it's about decision
making, it's about leadership.
There's so much more to the jobthan just leading kids in an
outdoor environment.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Yeah, there is.
And just like they are creatingan experience for the kids to
never forget, they themselves,as leaders, I am sure, are also
experiencing moments that theywill never forget.
So this all sounds incredible.
I know behind the scenes thereis stuff that everybody else
doesn't see.
How do you handle liabilityinsurance and risk management?
Speaker 2 (25:11):
else doesn't see.
Like, how do you handleliability insurance and risk
management?
Well, the insurances and riskmanagement are both massive over
there.
So we have a team over there, arisk management team.
We attend a conference everyyear, working directly with the
National Outdoor LeadershipSchool, and now we're bound to
some other folks and so weattend this every year.
The liability is quiteextensive, as you can well
imagine, but we also work withan insurance company that's
dealing in the outdoor industry,and so they understand what
(25:32):
we're doing and that we'retraveling internationally and
that we might be engaged inactivities that it might be a
little bit challenging.
When they look at whether it bewhitewater rafting or
mountaineering might seem alittle bit daunting.
One of the things that we'vealso done is that we
subcontracted all theseprofessional guides and
outfitters and all thedestinations where we go.
(25:52):
So we are not taking care ofall the actual setting up the
ropes for actually rock climbing.
We're not setting up the boatsover there.
We subcontract that withsomebody else that's taking care
of all that.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
And how do you find your subcontractors?
How do you vet them?
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Going over there meeting them one-on-one.
How do you vet them Going overthere meeting them one-on-one?
We've got a better system setup now than we did back in 96,
because we had no idea who we'regoing to be able to work with.
So we'll go through this.
I'll have a conversation withthem.
I meet them personally.
I just went to Africa to meetsome new outfitters that we're
going to work with.
Yeah, it's part of the job.
It is one of those things.
It's trust.
(26:27):
So parents are trusting us, I'mtrusting our leaders.
I've got to be able to trustthe outfitters that we're
working with and so sometimesthey don't make it and if they
don't hold up to our standardssince we have this, this really
thorough document abouteverything that has to go
through and how we operate andhow we want them to communicate
with our kids and and and what'sacceptable and what's not
acceptable and we've got someamazing people that we work with
(26:48):
all over the world and continueto have those relationships.
I mean there are a handful ofcompanies we've been working
with.
This is our 30th year workingwith them.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
Wow, and you've mentioned Africa a few times now
, and you did say that EastAfrica has got such a meaningful
place in your heart.
What is it about East Africathat makes it so special to you?
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Have you been?
Speaker 1 (27:07):
to.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Africa no, it is the most magical, and my daughter
has been six times at 19 yearsof age.
I know it, I know it.
There's something about justthe raw nature of being out in
the bush and seeing the wildlife.
So I just took my sister as aplus one and we had a big male
(27:28):
lion that was looking for shadeand came right up next to our
vehicle and he was two feet awayfrom my sister.
We could hear him breathing.
You get the flies on his backand it was so real and so
magical for her.
It's every time I go.
It's emotional when I saygoodbye I mean, I'm a
60-year-old guy that's in tears,saying goodbye to our guides
and our outfitters over there.
It's something that's kind ofhard to describe until people go
(27:50):
, but once they go to Africait's hard to say okay, I want to
go someplace else.
And so Southern Africa we'vebeen a number of times.
We were there just when COVIDkicked in and we weren't sure
when we were going to go back.
And I've been to Africa fourtimes the last 12 months.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
Sounds like you might need to start having a foot
permanently based there.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
I might have to go over there.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
So I was in Morocco a couple of times and I was in
Botswana and I ended up going toTanzania and Mozambique and
South Africa just in October.
Incredible, what a life.
So when it comes to likedesigning a new location and a
new program, a place you'venever done before, what is the
process?
Speaker 2 (28:31):
program, a place you've never done before.
What is the process?
So we've got an incredibly coolconcept on this.
So the process used to be thatwe'd go someplace that we'd like
to go and we'd send a scoutingteam over there and walk the
walk, meet all the outfitters.
So what we've done now, annie,is that we have what's called a
mystery trip.
So a guy came up with this ideafor a mystery.
So essentially, kids sign upfor it on the first day, we open
(28:51):
enrollment in August and itsells out the first day.
It's 12 kids and this year it'sabout $12,000.
And what they do is they'regoing to go to a destination,
but they're not going to findout.
Even though they sign up inAugust, they're not going to
find out until July 8th thefollowing year where that is.
And so they're in the Atlantaairport and put a puzzle
(29:11):
together and then they'll takeoff.
And so last year my daughterwas on the mystery trip and they
ended up going to Ladakh inIndia.
It's in northern India, it's inthe Himalayas.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
Oh my gosh, I know Ladakh, I haven't been there.
I tried to go but yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
So it is a distance to get there and they had never
been, so tried to go.
But yeah, so it is a distanceto get there and they had never
been.
So they were trekking at 17,000feet we found out the trip was
a little too hard, a little too.
It didn't fit our vibe.
But we've had other mysterytrips in Slovenia, madeira.
Madeira is off the coast ofPortugal.
It's a magical destination andnobody knew where it was, and so
when we revealed that, we sawpeople pulling out their phones,
(29:48):
going where's Madeira?
And so we have a hundred and Ithink we have 120 kids going to
Madeira this summer, andSylvania has been a great spot.
We've been to other places thatwe thought might work out, like
in Chile, but the weather wastoo harsh during the summer
months for us.
But that concept has worked out, worked out pretty well, and so
we've got an idea that nobodyknows about except the office,
and so everybody signs an NDA.
(30:09):
Nobody can speak a word ofwhere we're going until July 8th
, but that concept has beengreat.
So one of the things that Ilearned is you don't need a lot
of trips, you need the righttrips, so you don't have to have
everything.
So sometimes people go throughand think that, oh, you have to
have 50 or 70 or 80 trips, andno, you don't.
But you can scale those tripsand make them fine tune and make
(30:32):
them better and better and thatseems to have worked really,
really well.
And so a number of our tripshave sometimes as many as nine
groups.
One trip has 15 differentgroups that go out during the
summer at different times.
It's staggered during thesummer and the group size is 12
and two, so 12 kids and twoleaders.
So we don't ever really getlarger than that.
But it's worked out nicely thatthat's a small group and
(30:53):
everybody gets a chance to bewith each other and share that
experience together.
A larger group might water downthat whole group experience a
little bit.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
So I know you're in the teen and kid outward bound
business, but would you ever dothis for adults?
Speaker 2 (31:07):
I'll back you up a little bit.
So the outward bound we getthis all the time, so we are not
outward bound.
So outward real quick doesoutdoor wilderness experiences.
So the Outward Bound concept isto knock you down and build you
back up.
And I did an Outward Boundcourse and I did one, but I was
not going to do two.
Our business is being able tocreate an experience where kids
are challenged but also thrivein that environment and they
(31:30):
love that concept of being ableto share a group experience.
And so some are morechallenging, some are less
challenging, but it's all aboutthe group experience.
And so we're not OB and I haveto correct a lot of moms on that
because we're closer to Knowlesthan Outward Bound.
But even so, I've really kindof changed post-COVID that we've
seen the huge surge in us istrekking in Europe or being
(31:54):
again in Africa, as opposed to abackpacking trip in Colorado or
in Idaho or in Alaska.
So that's changed a little bit.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
I think I just grouped it into outward bound
because it feels like, well,you're going out and you're
having an experience.
But I see what you mean.
It is different.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
Right, we call it adventure travel for teens.
So just adventure travel, whichis different than wilderness
travel, which is different thana really harsh, hard, physically
challenging, and I understandthe concept behind those other
companies.
So what I found?
That kids are getting softerover the last 30 years and
that's true in a lot of ways,and the phone probably has a lot
(32:35):
to do with that but kids arenot willing to do the hard
things anymore.
Some of them are not willing todo that.
Adults are not willing to dothe hard thing anymore, and so
we've seen that.
So companies like Knolls andOutward Bound that were doing
the hard things are finding itmore challenging to be able to
find people that want to say yesto that.
So for us, can it be challenging?
(32:57):
Yes, can it be fun?
Absolutely.
Can it be transformative, 100%?
And if we have that concept overthere about how do they feel
when they walk away, do they say, oh, I never want to do that
again?
That's not what we want.
We want them to be bawling inthe airport saying, oh my gosh,
I don't want this to end, andthey're crying.
I've seen them can't evenbreathe and you're
(33:17):
hyperventilating and you needlike a brown baggie to breathe
into, to keep them passing out.
That's what I want and I kindof love it, but it is an
experience that we want.
When people leave their trip,we'd love for them to come back,
but we realize that's notrealistic.
But we hope that they walk awaysaying that was the coolest
thing that I've done up to thispoint in my life.
(33:39):
My favorite questions is askthem is what's the best day
you've ever had in your life andit's interesting to talk to a
22-year-old or a 15-year-old andcan we give them the best day
that they've ever had up to thatpoint in that's amazing and, as
you were saying, what was thebest day of your life?
Speaker 1 (33:57):
I was going through these moments that I can
remember and, aside from the keymoments like marriage and birth
of my children and stuff, itwas like being in Gokyo, which
is a 16 day hike in EverestNational Park, and I think
there's something about the awe,like the way your body feels,
(34:19):
that attaches the memory withjust like I want to go back
there.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
And we realize oftentimes we can't recreate
that, but you have that feelingand that memory that you have
and I tell folks all the time Iwant them to ideally think about
this in a week or a month or ayear, but really I want them to
think about this in 10 week or amonth or a year, but really I
want them to think about this in10 years or 25 years.
There's a great book called DieWith Zero that a guy recommended
(34:44):
to me, and part of this, theconcept, is die with zero in
your bank account because you'vegiven your money away to your
inheritance, to your children,You've given money away to
charity and you have enough tosurvive on.
But it's also it's about diewith zero regrets and I think a
lot of times as we get older andI've seen this now with my
contemporaries I can't go climbKilimanjaro because I got a bad
(35:05):
knee or I can't take the timeoff.
And what this book also talksabout is having those
experiences when you're younger,when you have your health and
you have those opportunitiesover there that you can really
stare at that time, because itis harder.
My siblings can't do it.
I'd like to think I could stilldo a lot of it, but there's
certain things that I can't.
But we want kids to realize hey, have these experiences now
(35:29):
while you can, and you will lookback and finally say, hey, I
did that.
So one of the big things thatwe're dealing with right now is
FOMO fear of missing out forboys.
Do you have sons?
Oh yeah, what they don't wantto leave home because they might
miss out with their friends,absolutely.
And so FOMO is.
It's a real thing.
(35:49):
So girls are taking over theworld, and girls we have.
If you look at our number inour office, it's dominated by
women.
If you look at the folks thatare signing up early, it's girls
.
The guys will drag their feetfear of missing out, and what
they're going to miss out on isan experience that they will
remember for the rest of theirlives.
Oftentimes they could do that,so we have to be able to
(36:11):
convince them.
So we've got a campaign gettingready to get started.
About what does FOMO look like?
And FOMO looks like dancing inthe rain in Albania.
Fomo look like.
And FOMO looks like dancing inthe rain in Albania.
Fomo looks like, you know,hugging somebody at the summit
of Kilimanjaro.
Fomo looks like sharing a mealon the side of a river in Idaho.
That's what FOMO is like.
And so, with these kids beingable to do that and realize,
okay, I don't do it now, I mightnot ever do it, and so being
(36:34):
able to talk about, you know,about that trek that you did at
Everest.
You remember that when you're70, 80 years of age.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
And finally, yeah, we've talked about we want to
bring the kids there, but ouryoungest is only nine and she
needs to be just a little bitolder to be able to tolerate.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, how strenuousit is.
Yeah, so let's say, a parentwants their kid to go for all of
the obvious reasons, but thekid is resistant because of FOMO
or because of nervousness.
(37:01):
Do you think the parents shouldpush?
So parents, do push.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Here are a couple of things.
So, hunter, my daughter went toa great camp in North Carolina
for six years and it's myfavorite girls camp in the South
.
But I told her she's not goingto go back because her old man
knows moon dancing.
She could go on moon dance forfree.
She was kicking a little bitbut I said, trust me, she went
on nine trips.
She has friends from all overthe US.
So I pushed a little bit.
(37:26):
I didn't push too much, but Ipushed a little bit.
Sometimes it needs a little bitof a push, it needs a little bit
of a challenge.
We're going to keep them safe,we're going to keep them
well-fed, we're going to keepthem in good hands, but we're
not going to necessarily keepthem comfortable.
So they need to learn how to becomfortable when they're
uncomfortable, and that's a goodlesson in life to be able to
have.
How do you get comfortable whenthings are a little bit
(37:47):
uncomfortable and it's notreally leaving the comfort zone?
There's a great guy named AlexHonnold that he's a famous
climber, did with the movie FreeSolo.
He talks about expanding thecomfort zone.
So you just kind of stretchwhat you're comfortable with and
so you're not really leavingthat, you're just expanding that
.
It's good for kids to be ableto have that.
Now let me also say, too, thatwe have some pretty strict
(38:08):
guidelines and if folks breakthe rules, consequences happen.
We had, two years ago, heardabout some kids that snuck out
in Thailand and went to a barand got something to drink, and
I heard about it and there wereeight kids involved in that.
There were three or four kidsthat were not.
As soon as we heard about it,we're going to send eight home.
We found out that we're notjust eight.
(38:29):
There were nine in the othergroup that came home.
17 kids were sent home and thatwas a good message for us.
To be able to tell parents isthat and some of these kids were
friends with my daughter and itdid not matter at all and we
had parents who called up andsaid, hey, they only had one sip
, it did not matter at all.
The rules were this and we sent17 kids home and then we
(38:49):
immediately sent out a messageto everybody else and we had
umpteen responses.
Thank you for doing that, thankyou for fulfilling this role
that you said hey, this is whatwe're going to do if you break
these rules, and so parentsunderstand that and they want
that, because we know what'sgoing on with teenagers in a lot
of places.
But it can't go on.
When we're responsible for them, when they're in our care, none
(39:12):
of that can happen.
Let me share also somethingelse that folks want to get
involved.
Are you in Atlanta?
Is that where you're living now?
Speaker 1 (39:20):
I'm out on the West Coast now.
Oh, you are yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
Well, atlanta is great and it's also tough for us
because we get a lot of Atlantakids and so we freeze a lot of
those spots over there forAtlanta kids because we get
inundated.
If we took all those Atlantakids we have too much.
And so we open up enrollment inAugust and we wait till a
certain day it's like the 25thof August and then we open it up
(39:42):
at nine o'clock and then thephones just, or the phones
didn't even blow up anymore, sothe internet blows up for us to
the point where a lot of tripsare full that day for particular
cities, and so if you're a 15year old girl from Atlanta per
se, it's hard to get on a tripunless you've been on one before
, unless you can find somethingthat might not be your first or
your second or your third ormaybe even your fourth trip
(40:04):
choice.
And so we believe and we found,that kids just want to
experience moon dance, notnecessarily going to a certain
destination or certainactivities, but they just want
to be with other kids and havethis experience.
And so it's worked out quitewell.
But we also have to manage ourwait list, and so we've got 250,
300 on a wait list right nowand we have space, but we don't.
(40:27):
We're waiting for the guys tocome in, and the guys will come
in.
We know we've got about 800,900 guys on board already, but
we know when they're going tocome in later on, and it's
typically January, february,after the holidays and going.
Oh, I'm not sure what I'm goingto do, and that might be a
little bit of a push from momand dad.
The girl spots are almostcompletely full for next summer.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
Oh wow.
So then are you still trying togrow this business, or are you
now just working on efficiencies?
Speaker 2 (40:54):
A couple of things.
One, trying to be moreefficient in everything that
we're doing, which has been nice.
I'd like to see it grow alittle bit more.
But I'm also at the age toowhen I'm thinking about that
transition, that succession overthere.
And I've been talking to somefolks over there who are much
more interested in seeing couldit grow in the kid market, could
it grow in the adult market.
And so the adult market is I'veheard this for years the heck
(41:17):
with the kids.
What about us?
And there is a massive desireto go and do these fun things
that the kids are doing.
But then to make thatcommitment it's harder.
The adult industry is massive.
That is an area that we'vetalked about.
If we can really kind of focuson not only fine-tuning what the
kids are doing but also startto get into the adult market too
(41:38):
, that would be a greatopportunity there.
That market for us.
They're probably 40 to55-year-old parents and my
contemporaries they're all done,they're all aged out.
All their kids are in their 30snow, they're all grandparents
and physically they can't do alot, but that 40 to 55-year-old
crowd absolutely can.
There's a younger crowd alsothat may not be married, that
(42:00):
may not have kids that woulddesire to do some things too.
So we're looking at all that,but nothing yet, and I'd love to
do this for the rest of my life, but I'm not, I can't, and and
I also realize the business isbigger than me and I'd love to
be able to find somebody that isas passionate and wants to take
this for another 30 years.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
Yeah, I'm sure you will find that ideal person when
that ideal company that isgoing to take over the reins
when that time comes, and I'msure you'll find the right fit.
So you mentioned there'sopportunity out there.
There's clearly space in themarket for anyone that's
listening in who's aspiring tobe an entrepreneur, and maybe
(42:42):
they too are an adventureenthusiast or they're a rock
climber or a mountain biker or acamp leader, for example.
What advice would you give themfor creating a business around
giving life experiences likethis?
Speaker 2 (42:57):
I think the one thing there are a lot of dreamers out
there.
There are a lot of people thathave ideas and a lot of people
say, oh gosh, I'd like to dothis and this and this.
I've heard it forever.
So it's about believing inyourself.
It's about you've got to grind.
You can't get knocked down andfail to get back up.
You must always get back up.
Learning as much about how asmall business operates learning
(43:19):
how a larger business operates.
I wish I had taken more coursesin business when I was younger,
so I had to kind of learn on thefly.
This has been a business schoolover the last 30 years.
But what I would say is if youare passionate about something,
if you believe in something, ifyou really want to do it, you'll
miss an opportunity.
If you really want to do it,you'll miss an opportunity if
(43:40):
you don't go after it.
And my dad missed anopportunity.
He regretted until the day thathe died that he missed an
opportunity to become anentrepreneur when he was younger
.
He had family, didn't want totake the risk.
He talked about that justbefore he passed away.
That lesson over there wasreally loud and clear to me is
(44:00):
that I might not have known alot, but I loved kids and I
loved the outdoors and I wantedto make a run at it, and if I
didn't make it year two, I'dhave been okay with it.
What would have beendisappointing to me is if I
never had tried, if I never saidI'm going to try to do this and
gotten into something else.
And I can't tell you how manyother friends that never tried,
(44:23):
and so I'm not quite sure and Idon't know how.
I was fortunate to be able todo this.
Sometimes I'm on an island andeverybody that works for me I
adore everybody that works forme, but they're all Gen Zs and
so I'm surrounded by all folksin their 20s, which is, I think,
maybe keeping me a little bityounger, but it's also.
They are passionate about whatwe're doing, they're passionate
(44:45):
about our business and they'rethe ones that give me the energy
to be able to successfullyoperate all of this.
And so finding some really good, smart people that can help you
out and you hear it all thetime find people that are
smarter than you.
That's pretty easy to do.
These young people coming outof school are so bright, so
(45:06):
dynamic and looking for apurpose to have in life as
opposed to chasing that dollar.
And there will always be peoplethat are going to chase the
dollar.
But what we're finding?
A lot of the youngerindividuals coming into the
workforce that look at purposewith meaning and want to make
something more than just apaycheck.
Speaker 1 (45:23):
Well, I think they're shortcutting what a lot of
people at least I feel in mygeneration made a mistake with,
which was we chased money a lotand we're circling back to
purpose later.
But Gen Z and Gen Alpha lookslike they're kind of just
keeping it aligned the whole waythrough.
It's amazing.
So just as a final questionhere, if you could go back and
(45:46):
talk with yourself when you werein your early twenties, what
life wisdom would you giveyourself?
Speaker 2 (45:52):
I think I found out and again I talked about it
earlier my grandparents had thiscamp.
I went back as a 19 year oldand two days after being there I
thought this is what I want todo the rest of my life, and I
never left that.
I never said I want to dosomething else, and so,
following your dream over there,hindsight probably could have
taken a couple more courses incollege.
(46:13):
That might've helped me alittle bit more.
I love my time at Lovett.
I loved getting to know thekids.
I love getting to know thefamilies, but it didn't prepare
me for being an entrepreneur,and so 12 years at Lovett gave
me the experience of workingwith kids and working with
people, but not on the businessside of it.
So as a small business, Ineeded to learn a lot of that
(46:34):
along the way.
But also, if I'm looking at a19-year-old me and a 67-year-old
me, I'd love the fact that I'venever said no.
I never said I'm not going to dothis.
I don't believe that this isgoing to work.
It was always yes.
The toughest part aboutthinking about succession is
kind of leaving what I lovedoing.
(46:54):
That's probably the greatestgift that I've been given is
just, I wake up every day and Ilove what we get to do, even
more so now than it was 30 yearsago.
30 years ago there were a lotof bumps on the road.
There are not as many bumps,but we're just bigger.
But it's helped out.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
You've really found a magical winning spot because
you get fulfillment from this,it energizes you, it really
helps kids in their future livesand you just think about like
that unlimited domino thatyou're setting off.
I am so amazed, and the reasonwhy I even thought to reach out
(47:31):
to you was we were in theairport and I saw a group of
kids wearing moon dancesweatshirts.
They must've been coming backfor one of these trips and I was
with my family and I was like Iknow the guy that started that
and oh my gosh, I'm wonder howit's doing.
And then I looked it up andyou're everywhere and I was just
(47:51):
like wow, you, you really didit and just thank you so much
for coming on the show andsharing your story with us and
all of this incredible wisdom.
Speaker 2 (48:03):
Well, love reconnecting with you and I love
telling the story, but evenmore so I love reconnecting with
you and thank you for all ofthis.
I mean, I'm humbled by beingable to chat with you, so it's
great fun, and please tell yourwhole family I said hello.
Speaker 1 (48:17):
I will.
Thanks so much, Hayes.
It was so good to talk.
Speaker 2 (48:20):
So great to talk to you.
Thanks, Annie.
Speaker 1 (48:26):
Today's key takeaways .
Sometimes, when one dream fallsthrough, it opens the door to
another one that may be evenbetter.
So stay open to possibilitiesthat may be even better.
So stay open to possibilities.
These sink or swim momentschallenge you to dig deep and
discover what you're trulycapable of.
Some friends will believe inyou and some won't.
(48:48):
Focus on those who do.
Look at the marketing materialsfor potential competitors when
it comes time for you to createyour own.
If you have a service camp orclass for kids, consider
reaching out to schools topresent your offering.
You don't have to understandeverything to start a business.
It's a learning process.
(49:10):
In the beginning it can feellike survival, but you'll grow
through the challenges.
Kids crave connection,challenges and fun, and
communication skills are crucial, not just for kids, but for
everyone.
Over the last 30 years, hayeshas been working with teens and
he's noticed that teens havegotten softer over the years,
(49:32):
something that he suspectsphones may have a lot to do with
.
Whether you're a parent or a kid, cell phones are taking over
our lives, and this discussionis important to protect our
futures.
Communication skills areincredibly important for life,
well-being and connection toothers.
Shared experience in person iswhere real growth can happen,
(49:55):
not on a screen.
So it's up to us together torecognize what cell phones are
doing to our lives and alsothose of our children.
Time is life's biggestcompetitor.
If you live to be 80, you'llhave about 30,000 days in your
life.
How will you make them count?
Ask yourself what was the bestday of your life?
(50:17):
Then consider how you cancreate more days like that.
Get comfortable with beinguncomfortable.
You don't have to leave yourcomfort zone entirely, just
expand it.
Focus on less and improve thequality of what you do, whether
it's offerings, trips or goals.
Trust is important for yourteam, for your subcontractors
(50:42):
and for your clients.
More is not better.
Sometimes, focusing on less andjust improving on a smaller
selection is better.
If you have a dream, it's aboutbelieving in yourself.
You've got to grind.
It's about believing inyourself You've got to grind.
You can't get knocked down andfail to get back up.
You must always get back up.
(51:04):
In Hayes' words, if you arepassionate about something, if
you believe in something, if youreally want to do it, you'll
miss an opportunity if you don'tgo after it.
Maybe you'll make it to yeartwo and maybe you won't.
But what if you never try.
Say yes, you can do this andbelieve in yourself.
(51:24):
And for a few bookrecommendations, there's Die
With Zero by Bill Perkins,unreasonable Hospitality by Will
Garrido and Setting the Tableby Danny Meyer.
That's it for today.
I release episodes once a week,so come back and check it out.
Have a great day.
Welcome to how I Built my Small Business.
I'm Anne McGinty, your host,and in today's episode, hayes
Hitchens talks with us about hisjourney starting and building
Moondance Adventures.
Moondance is a teen adventuretravel program that sends over
2,000 teenagers each summer ontrips across five continents and
(00:30):
over 20 countries, with acommitment to foster personal
growth, leadership skills and alove for the outdoors.
For some backstory, hayes wasthe dean of students and
director of summer Programs atmy school, and I remember him
talking about starting MoondanceAdventures when I was in the
(00:51):
seventh grade, so this is asuper meaningful reconnection
and, wow, to see what he hasaccomplished is just so
inspiring and heartwarming.
You can find a link through toMoondance in the episode's
description Before we dive in.
(01:11):
If you enjoy today's episode,please share it with someone who
could benefit from the insightsand stories.
I'm an indie show and yoursupport helps me reach and
inspire more listeners.
Let's get started.
Hey, it is so good to see youafter all of these years.
(01:33):
Thanks for coming on the show.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Well, I'm so glad to be here, anne Wonderful, to
reconnect.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
So can we go all the way back to when you were
working at Lovett and we werestanding on that grassy hill
outside the classrooms and Iremember you talking about how
you were going to startMoondance.
Can you take us back there?
How did you even get the ideafor Moondance?
Speaker 2 (01:58):
So I left Lovett in 95, made a decision in actually
the fall of 94 to leave becauseI was chasing an old summer camp
.
I was trying to buy an oldsummer camp in North Carolina
and been working on this.
I'd been able to raise moneyfor this and this was my dream.
My grandparents owned a summercamp in northern Wisconsin, so,
anyway, the property that I wastrying to buy fell through on
(02:18):
Friday, the 13th of October 1995.
They sold it to somebody elseand I thought what am I going to
do?
The sun came up the next day.
That's when I had this idea fora adventure program and that's
when I put this together forMoondance.
So the concept of Moondance, italmost came out of sink or swim
and the idea that I'd alwayshad would be to own a
(02:39):
traditional summer camp.
But that fell through and thishas turned out to be a lot
better.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
So once you decided that you wanted to start an
adventure program for teens, howdid you actually get it up and
running?
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Well, the part about a lot of this is sink or swim,
right.
Either I had to make somethinghappen or I was going to have to
find something else to do.
So I had this idea, shared itwith a girlfriend at the time
who was with Anderson Consulting.
She wasn't crazy about the idea.
But I also met with anotherfriend of mine, Marsha Hill, who
ended up saying, okay, this iswhat we're going to do, and boom
, boom, boom, and a week laterwe had a name, we had a business
(03:14):
idea, we had a concept puttingtogether a business plan and we
had the first year.
So that was probably Novemberof 95.
And then we operated, firstsummer in 96.
34 kids ended up going.
Not quite sure whether we'regoing to make it to year two,
but we had a great time on yearone.
But year two ramped it up andthen ramped it up a little bit
(03:35):
more the year after that andthen, once we started traveling
internationally, it's reallykind of taken off since then.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Well, so 1995, 1996, I mean, Google was hardly a
thing.
Google was not a thing.
Websites were not really athing.
So how did you get anyone to?
Speaker 2 (03:55):
even know about your business.
So I had a couple of catalogsfrom a couple of our competitors
, so that was it.
So there was no Google, therewas no search at all and it was
just trying to figure it out.
So the best way to do this wasjust it was that word of mouth.
So I had the connections atLovett, had the connections in
the South, I had the connectionsin North Carolina where I'm
originally from, and then I'mjust getting the word out and
spread it.
(04:15):
So my cousins own the camp up inWisconsin.
We got a handful of kids out ofthere, some kids from Lovett,
kids from Westminster and then asmattering of kids from around
the country Great kid out ofChicago, another kid out of
Dallas.
I'm not quite sure where theyfound out about us because it
was really really hard.
Back then I traveled a littlebit in the South just making
presentations in Atlanta andCharlotte and Nashville and
(04:37):
Birmingham, but I wasn'ttraveling the country at the
time, so I'm not quite surewhere a handful of those found
us, but they did find us and Ithink they all had a pretty good
time and a lot of them cameback and then they brought their
friends.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
So it must have been word of mouth.
And with the 34 kids signing up, I mean this was all new to you
, right?
You'd never run a program likethis by yourself.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Never and I had led, you know I'd taken groups of
kids from Lovett when I wasthere on various trips, but
never putting together abusiness, never understanding
all the intricacies that comefrom running a business, from
the risk management to the legal, everything that entailed all
that.
So you know, what I didn't knowdidn't hurt me at all because I
(05:24):
didn't know a lot, and where itreally kind of turned for us
was really understanding thehospitality piece of working
with people and working withkids, and I'd always loved that
when I was at Lubbock I alwaysloved the kids and I loved the
parents and I didn't always lovethe administration or just the
politics of a private school.
So being on my own was great.
And then I had a handful offolks that believed in me and
(05:45):
said, okay, this might work.
But again, it's hard to make asmall business operating year
two or three or four or five.
But we were able to get to yeartwo and of course in 96, it was
the Olympics in Atlanta.
So I thought we would get allthese kids from Atlanta and we
did.
We got a handful, got Whitneyand a handful of other folks
that ended up joining us.
But after that then that wordstarted spreading, and then by
(06:08):
97, 98, 99, we really kind oftook off then.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
So what was that first summer actually like?
Like, I'm sure that there weresome hiccups.
I mean, nobody, nobody starts abusiness and has it be smooth
sailing.
So what was it actually like?
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Hindsight.
What was going on.
I mean, the trailer popped offthe van.
That's the first bump that wehit over there and they're going
.
Oh my gosh, we've got to beable to do that.
But we operated in NorthCarolina, had two groups that
went to North Carolina.
We split up, matter of fact,one of my co-leaders, a girl
named Casey Cram Marshall, whowent to Lubbock.
So Casey was my co-leader andthen they had another group.
(06:50):
They went one direction, wewent the other direction.
This two-week trip in NorthCarolina.
Then I went out to Wyoming, toJackson Hole, and we had two
groups out.
There Was on that first one andthen JoJo was on the second one
and ended up having smallgroups.
And then JoJo was on the secondone and ended up having small
groups, probably seven to eightkids backpacking in the Tetons.
We didn't have permits.
I'm not sure that you can leteverybody know that we didn't
(07:11):
have permits.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
It's been long enough .
Statute of limitations,three-year period of time.
It's over, that's gone.
That's gone.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
But we operated, wanted to make sure the kids had
a great time, a lot of fun, butalso a lot of challenge.
And my background was not onlyat Lovett and the campus but I
did it at Knowles course, theNational Outdoor Leadership
School and Outward Bound courseand took some of those concepts
into it, quickly realized that'snot what kids really wanted.
Kids wanted to connect, kidswanted to be challenged, kids
(07:40):
also wanted to have fun.
And you can do all that withouthaving to really be something
that's so physically hard thatthey said I never want to do
that again.
And so probably 50, 55 percentof those kids ended up going
back for a second trip.
But the other thing too, andy, Ididn't know a whole lot about
business, and so I was trying tofigure out what was going on.
(08:02):
So not only was I reading, butit was business school in real
time and trying to figure out,okay, how do you make payroll
and how do you take care ofeverybody.
But again, I didn't know a lot,which was probably helpful,
because if I'd known a lot Iprobably wouldn't be doing this.
And that's kind of the greatpart about it, I think sometimes
are you entrepreneurial?
Is everybody that way?
I'm not quite sure, but what Idid know since I was 18 is that
(08:23):
I wanted to get into the summercampus, as I was 19 at the time.
So after my freshman year ofcollege I knew that's the
direction I wanted to go.
So I understood the camp ofbusiness, but I didn't
understand this business as much, and so that helped me at least
, having those years over thereworking with kids and again, I
mean 30 years into it and I'mstill not a great businessman,
but we're in business for 30years.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
I think you are a better businessman than you are
acknowledging.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Well, we'll see.
We'll see.
It's been a fun run.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
So when you mentioned the hospitality piece as
something that you wanted tobring in, what do you mean?
Speaker 2 (08:55):
That Maya Angelou quote.
You know how do people feelwhen you walk away.
It's not exactly what MayaAngelou said, but it is one of
those things.
There's a guy named Danny Meyer.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Yeah, he went to my college.
He went to Trinity, collegeyeah.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
He did.
So that's exactly right.
So Danny's done a marvelous job.
He really talks abouthospitality quite a bit and
there's a there's another guythat worked for him, named Will
Garita, that wrote a book calledunreasonable hospitality that
just came out a couple of yearsago.
It's a fabulous book.
But once I saw that, once westarted focusing more on what's
that service piece like andwhat's the hospitality piece
like and how do people feel, andnot just the kids, but how do
(09:27):
the leaders feel, are they takencare of?
And how do the parents feel,are they communicated enough?
Because in our business it's alittle bit roots and wings, and
so parents give those kids thoseroots, but they got to let them
spread the wings in order tofind out what's going on.
So there's not dailycommunication with the parents,
(09:49):
and they had a hard time withthat.
They had to trust me, they hadto trust us, they had to trust
our system that we were doingeverything right and their kids
were safe.
But they were also changed, andso when you go climb a big
mountain or you go on a longeradventure of a backpacking trip
or a rafting trip, it's a littlesomething that comes from that.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
Well, and so back then you didn't have to worry so
much about, I guess, lettingthe kids spread their wings
because the technology, you know, cell phones didn't really
exist.
They did not.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
They did not really exist.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
So what is your perspective on devices and how
do you handle this, with teensprobably wanting to bring them
on the trips?
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Everybody has a smartphone.
Every single kid has asmartphone, so a couple thousand
kids.
We take the phones up as soonas they arrive, so they text
their parents I'm here and thenwe take them up Nice, and they
do not touch their phone untilthey walk through security on
the way out at the end of thetrip, and they love it.
And parents have a harder timewith that than the kids do, but
(10:43):
kids love it and oftentimes,where they get their phone back,
say I don't want my phone back,I like being able to talk to
other people, and it's become abigger problem.
Year after year, it's become abigger and bigger problem.
So what it was like in 2010 iscompletely different than it is
now, so that's probably one ofthe best things for them.
(11:03):
The other thing that we do,which is really great, is we
take their watches away, so theydon't know what time it is.
So we talk about living in themoment.
So think about this too, annie.
So we think about so.
Our greatest competitor is time,and so time is fleeting for a
teenager or for a young adult orfor an older adult.
And if we take that concept ofokay, you had this little window
(11:25):
of time and then it's going tobe gone, and so two weeks is a
small amount of time, and theytalk about if you live to be 80,
you might get 30,000 days outof your life.
30,000 days, so we're talking14.
And what we're trying to do inthat 14 days is give them
something that's so impactfulthat in 10 years or 25 years
(11:45):
they're still talking about whatthat experience might've been
like.
As we go through this, we allknow that we forget a lot of
stuff.
We forget a lot of things thathappened to us.
Some things might trigger that.
What we try to do is try togive them a moment of time, a
memory of that moment that theyreflect back on years later.
(12:07):
And it could be anything.
It could be hiking up in Alaska, it could be climbing a big
mountain, it could be hangingout with some kids that you just
met and becoming really, reallyclose with them.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
This is incredible work that you're doing, because
I think that, especially withthe rise of technology, kids are
getting more and moredisconnected and realizing that
it's not what makes them happy.
But the technology is alsobuilt to be so addictive that
they can't really step away fromit unless somebody does
actually take it off their hands.
(12:40):
So, my gosh, thank you so muchfor doing what you're doing
hands.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
So, my gosh, thank you so much for doing what
you're doing.
Well, we asked parents in afollow-up evaluation.
100% of the parents supportthat decision and I would say
almost 100% of the kids supportthat decision.
They want to have an excuse tonot have their phone with them.
I have a 19-year-old and yeah,I see the addiction right there
and they'll sit in a room with abunch of other kids and they're
texting back and forth.
(13:07):
They're not even talking, andso communication is critical,
and so we take the phones up andallow them to talk, and so it
might take them a day or two tokind of warm up.
What is this like?
What do you mean?
We're going to sit around andwe're going to talk about some
of this stuff, and that's that'sreally, really helpful for them
to be able to talk about.
And the other thing too, annie,that has been great is that we
(13:28):
allow one friend to go, but wedon't allow you to go with two
friends, and so you might beable to.
So you feel a little bitinsecure or you feel like you
need to take a buddy with you.
You can take one, but you can'ttake two friends.
Meaning that you're going tomeet 10 new kids and that
concept has been from the get-goand so we had all these kids
out of the Buckhead area thatwanted to go together and I
wasn't going to take everybody,and that was a decision that I
(13:50):
made right off the bat.
And if we failed, that was thedecision I was comfortable about
leaving with.
I didn't want to take everybodythat knew each other, because
when you don't know each other,you actually are more open to
talk about things that happen toyou, as opposed to being with a
bunch of friends that know youreally, really well.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Yeah, I can see all of the benefits.
I mean getting pushed outsideof your comfort zone just a
little bit and, as you're saying, like feeling open because
nobody knows anything about you.
So when you have like a groupof teenagers, most of who don't
know each other, together forthe first time, without their
devices, what do you do aboutgetting them to know each other
(14:29):
and breaking the ice so that youcan kind of get on with the
trip?
Speaker 2 (14:34):
It's easy, all kinds of games that they can end up
playing just to just to knoweach other, and it might take a
day or two.
This is what I've seen.
So you have two sisters and abrother, right yeah?
So the girls.
Girls are much more open aboutrelationships, about meeting new
people.
Guys are a little bitstandoffish, and so it's.
The girls will be right there,bringing everybody in and
(14:56):
bringing the group together,getting to know everybody's
names and getting to know eachother.
In that first 24 hours we do allkinds of things to try to get
to know each other, to know eachother.
In that first 24 hours we doall kinds of things to try to
get to know each other.
But sometimes it might takethose boys a day or two, or
sometimes five or six days tokind of get out of that shell.
And all of a sudden theyrealize, hey, this is pretty
good and I can share some thingsthat I think about, but I've
(15:18):
never been able to tell anybody.
I can't tell my parents, Ican't tell my friends, I can't.
And all of a sudden they'retelling these other kids on
their, on their trip, and so thegroup dynamics, the shared
experience, is the magic thathappens out there, and when you
get kids together, all of asudden you put them on a belay
line or they're out there,whether they're rock climbing
and somebody has to support themover there, or they're in a
boat and they're having a paddleand everybody on the left side
has to you out.
And then if you go outbackpacking, sometimes it's kind
(15:47):
of tough.
So the best thing to do whenyou're backpacking is talk and
to talk to each other, andthat's that's a cool concept for
kids to figure out is thatthey're having these
conversations and finding outfrom these other people that
they just met the day before andby day 12 or 13, they're crying
because they hate to saygoodbye, and it happens time and
time again.
So it's something that kidsneed and, moving forward, I
(16:10):
believe strongly that issomething that they will look
back on.
Finally, and hopefully thiswill go on for another 30 plus
years.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Yeah, there is something I think they've even
studied this about being in theoutdoors that way what it does
to your nervous system.
I imagine that you have been toI don't know how many countries
.
At this point, what stands outto you as some of your most
memorable experiences and trips?
From running all of yourdifferent trips through
(16:38):
Moondance?
Speaker 2 (16:39):
I've been very fortunate to travel a good bit.
One of the things that I talkabout is when you go to some
place that's so spectacular thatyou're planning to come back
before you've actually left.
That's pretty good.
So East Africa is prettyspecial to me.
I've been fortunate to havegone a number of times and been
up Kilimanjaro a couple ofdifferent times.
My daughter climbing it lastsummer was very special to me.
(17:02):
Although I was not there, itwas probably one of the most
proud moments of my life justknowing, because it's pretty
tough physically.
But what I'd love to do also isjust to go out and see kids and
see them in their element andsee what's going on over there.
There's a very humblingexperience as an older owner of
the business going over thereand hanging out with a bunch of
teenagers and then going, okay,who's the old man over here?
(17:23):
And then once we warm up alittle bit, it's okay.
But I don't want to detract fromtheir experience.
And so I was fortunate to climbthe Grand Teton a bunch of
times or Mount Rainier a bunchof times with some kids, and
that experience was prettyspecial.
But probably the most impactfulis just going out and seeing
kids at different times of theirtrip and just spending a little
(17:44):
bit of time with them and thenwhen they come back as trip
leaders, that's special also asI continue to travel.
I traveled to Europe a coupleof times last summer, saw about
12 different groups in Sloveniaand Croatia and Madeira and
Morocco, and that was all partof the perks of being a business
owner.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Oh my gosh, you picked the best business ever.
I love it.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Love it.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
I love it and I don't even do it.
I wish I were doing what you'redoing.
And so now you are in your what?
29th or 30th season.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Going into our 30th season, yep.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
You mentioned like over 2000 kids traveling.
I think you guys cover severalcontinents and several countries
.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Afghanistan has 21 countries, 11 states.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
How have you done this?
Like you mentioned getting tripleaders who were previous
participants, but how else areyou putting this all together?
I mean, this is, it's seasonal,and then it sounds like an
influx of leaders and studentsand logistics and how are you
doing this?
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Well, I'm not doing it on my own.
And then it sounds like aninflux of leaders and students
and logistics.
And how are you doing this?
Well, I'm not doing it on myown.
I'll tell you that One of themost important things that I did
early on is realize that I needsome other people involved to
help us get that going.
So we have there are 18full-time folks over here right
now.
It is a seasonal business.
We operate from June until theend of July, but we're full time
, and so we kick off our newseason about two weeks after we
(19:10):
complete the previous season.
And so we've got gosh.
We had about a thousand kidsthat signed up in the first 30
minutes last year and it crashedour website.
So we changed that wholestructure up of how we're doing
that.
That was great.
I have a team that's dedicatedjust to the admissions.
I have a team that's justdedicated just to the operations
.
I have a team that's justdedicated to staffing.
I have a finance team that'sdedicated to all that and I'm
(19:31):
just besaging all of that.
Make sure that it's all comingtogether and working well.
So it's not been without somechallenges and a lot of bumps
along the way, but having thesystem set up over there where
everybody knows what they needto take care of, and it works
well.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
Well, it sounds like it has just continued to grow
since you first started and mustbe working well With 18 people
working full time.
How many are working during thepeak for June and July?
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Every single one.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
And then leaders.
Though how many leaders do youhave?
Speaker 2 (20:03):
We had about 170 last summer.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Oh my gosh, this is amazing.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
And they're all remarkable folks and the model
for finding the leaders has beena little bit different over the
years, originally going aftermore of those that had the hard
skills of being able to operatein a backcountry type setting,
realizing that that's not.
You need some of those, but youalso need those with a really
soft skills, and so some of ourtrips are not as physically
(20:30):
challenging.
So going to Africa, to Tanzania, to Zanzibar, may not be having
the hard skills, but you haveto have the people skills, you
have to have the communicationskills, you have to have the
leadership skills in order tomanage all that.
So we go to Chapel Hill and wego to UVA and W&L and Georgia
and Vanderbilt and a lot ofgreat schools recruiting trip
(20:51):
leaders.
And then we have some that arein a seasonal business, that
might've gotten out of collegeand maybe working in the ski
industry or something that theymight have another summer
available, but typically by thetime they're 24, 25, they've
aged out, and we have a couplethat are a little bit older than
that.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Have you ever had a situation where a leader was a
no-show?
Speaker 2 (21:10):
We've never had a leader that's a no-show.
We had a leader that withdrewtwo weeks before the summer
started, which was a littledisappointing, but it was also.
It was a great opportunity forus to realize we will be very
stringent on folks that come in.
So if we have 170, we had threeor four that didn't make it
through staff training last yearwe just realized, okay, they
weren't the right fit and wemade a change.
(21:31):
And during the summer sometimesthose things happen.
So we have a surplus of tripleaders that we can pull and
move some folks around.
But I think last summer we had172 different trips operating
around the world and this summerwe'll have 200.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Wow, If there's anybody that's younger listening
in who is curious aboutpossibly being a leader.
What does it require and howextensive is the training that
they get?
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Well, the application process is twofold.
So the original applicationcomes in.
If they are strong enough, theyget the full application.
If it's not, then we'll justpolitely say this may not be the
right fit.
Right now we probably have 75already on board that are hired.
We have probably 250applications already.
We'll have roughly 500applications for about, I say,
(22:17):
170 spots, but 60 to 70 of thosewill be taken up by folks from
last year.
So about 500 applications forabout 100 new positions this
year, and so it's really prettygreat to be able to go through
this.
They'll go through threeinterviews before me and then I
do the fourth interview.
And another wonderful thing thewoman that's overseeing our
staffing team, suzanne Hollis,is a Lubbock graduate, fantastic
(22:40):
, unbelievable woman, and she'sthe one that kind of spearheads
all that.
So they don't even get to meuntil they've already confirmed
that they are phenomenal.
And I'm the fourth interview,and that's either to make a trip
leader or maybe it's not theright fit.
But we've been very fortunateand you know, it's all about the
people that you're working withand it's all about who we bring
(23:02):
on board.
And so we'll take everybody toNorth Carolina.
We'll train them for two weeks.
We spend two weeks at atraditional camp over there and
then go through everything fromsunup to sundown every day and
just learning how we operate.
We'll spend four days of asimulated trip in the Pisgah
National Forest if you rememberthe Joe trip and then they end
up coming back to Nashville.
We'll spend a couple of dayshere and it's like throwing a
(23:22):
pebble in a pond and then peoplescatter all over the world from
the Nashville InternationalAirport.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
What an incredible leadership opportunity for any
of these kids to get to do.
It's an amazing leadershipopportunity.
Oh my gosh, I want my kids todo this.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
So there was that travel snafu last year.
Right, it was in.
I think it's a lot of parties.
Do you remember this?
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Oh yes, there was a.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Microsoft glitch that threw everybody off.
So Delta Airlines said nounaccompanied minors were able
to fly.
Well, we had 60 kids that camefrom Belize into Hartsfield
Airport and I had three tripleaders with them.
They were all seniors incollege, one was going to law
school, one was the president ofher university and another
(24:06):
dynamic woman.
Long story short, they wereable to maneuver all 60 of these
kids onto a flight.
After Delta Airlines said nounaccompanied minors could get
on there.
They got every single kid homethat day.
So I wrote them pretty quick.
I didn't even know about thisbecause I was flying back from
Africa and I didn't know aboutthis until they had gotten
everybody.
And I said this may be the mostimportant leadership position
(24:30):
that you have been in at thispoint in your life, and I
believe that because they wereable to talk Delta Airlines into
letting these kids go.
And so, yes, it's about problemsolving, it's about decision
making, it's about leadership.
There's so much more to the jobthan just leading kids in an
outdoor environment.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Yeah, there is.
And just like they are creatingan experience for the kids to
never forget, they themselves,as leaders, I am sure, are also
experiencing moments that theywill never forget.
So this all sounds incredible.
I know behind the scenes thereis stuff that everybody else
doesn't see.
How do you handle liabilityinsurance and risk management?
Speaker 2 (25:11):
else doesn't see.
Like, how do you handleliability insurance and risk
management?
Well, the insurances and riskmanagement are both massive over
there.
So we have a team over there, arisk management team.
We attend a conference everyyear, working directly with the
National Outdoor LeadershipSchool, and now we're bound to
some other folks and so weattend this every year.
The liability is quiteextensive, as you can well
imagine, but we also work withan insurance company that's
dealing in the outdoor industry,and so they understand what
(25:32):
we're doing and that we'retraveling internationally and
that we might be engaged inactivities that it might be a
little bit challenging.
When they look at whether it bewhitewater rafting or
mountaineering might seem alittle bit daunting.
One of the things that we'vealso done is that we
subcontracted all theseprofessional guides and
outfitters and all thedestinations where we go.
(25:52):
So we are not taking care ofall the actual setting up the
ropes for actually rock climbing.
We're not setting up the boatsover there.
We subcontract that withsomebody else that's taking care
of all that.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
And how do you find your subcontractors?
How do you vet them?
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Going over there meeting them one-on-one.
How do you vet them Going overthere meeting them one-on-one?
We've got a better system setup now than we did back in 96,
because we had no idea who we'regoing to be able to work with.
So we'll go through this.
I'll have a conversation withthem.
I meet them personally.
I just went to Africa to meetsome new outfitters that we're
going to work with.
Yeah, it's part of the job.
It is one of those things.
It's trust.
(26:27):
So parents are trusting us, I'mtrusting our leaders.
I've got to be able to trustthe outfitters that we're
working with and so sometimesthey don't make it and if they
don't hold up to our standardssince we have this, this really
thorough document abouteverything that has to go
through and how we operate andhow we want them to communicate
with our kids and and and what'sacceptable and what's not
acceptable and we've got someamazing people that we work with
(26:48):
all over the world and continueto have those relationships.
I mean there are a handful ofcompanies we've been working
with.
This is our 30th year workingwith them.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
Wow, and you've mentioned Africa a few times now
, and you did say that EastAfrica has got such a meaningful
place in your heart.
What is it about East Africathat makes it so special to you?
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Have you been?
Speaker 1 (27:07):
to.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Africa no, it is the most magical, and my daughter
has been six times at 19 yearsof age.
I know it, I know it.
There's something about justthe raw nature of being out in
the bush and seeing the wildlife.
So I just took my sister as aplus one and we had a big male
(27:28):
lion that was looking for shadeand came right up next to our
vehicle and he was two feet awayfrom my sister.
We could hear him breathing.
You get the flies on his backand it was so real and so
magical for her.
It's every time I go.
It's emotional when I saygoodbye I mean, I'm a
60-year-old guy that's in tears,saying goodbye to our guides
and our outfitters over there.
It's something that's kind ofhard to describe until people go
(27:50):
, but once they go to Africait's hard to say okay, I want to
go someplace else.
And so Southern Africa we'vebeen a number of times.
We were there just when COVIDkicked in and we weren't sure
when we were going to go back.
And I've been to Africa fourtimes the last 12 months.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
Sounds like you might need to start having a foot
permanently based there.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
I might have to go over there.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
So I was in Morocco a couple of times and I was in
Botswana and I ended up going toTanzania and Mozambique and
South Africa just in October.
Incredible, what a life.
So when it comes to likedesigning a new location and a
new program, a place you'venever done before, what is the
process?
Speaker 2 (28:31):
program, a place you've never done before.
What is the process?
So we've got an incredibly coolconcept on this.
So the process used to be thatwe'd go someplace that we'd like
to go and we'd send a scoutingteam over there and walk the
walk, meet all the outfitters.
So what we've done now, annie,is that we have what's called a
mystery trip.
So a guy came up with this ideafor a mystery.
So essentially, kids sign upfor it on the first day, we open
(28:51):
enrollment in August and itsells out the first day.
It's 12 kids and this year it'sabout $12,000.
And what they do is they'regoing to go to a destination,
but they're not going to findout.
Even though they sign up inAugust, they're not going to
find out until July 8th thefollowing year where that is.
And so they're in the Atlantaairport and put a puzzle
(29:11):
together and then they'll takeoff.
And so last year my daughterwas on the mystery trip and they
ended up going to Ladakh inIndia.
It's in northern India, it's inthe Himalayas.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
Oh my gosh, I know Ladakh, I haven't been there.
I tried to go but yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
So it is a distance to get there and they had never
been, so tried to go.
But yeah, so it is a distanceto get there and they had never
been.
So they were trekking at 17,000feet we found out the trip was
a little too hard, a little too.
It didn't fit our vibe.
But we've had other mysterytrips in Slovenia, madeira.
Madeira is off the coast ofPortugal.
It's a magical destination andnobody knew where it was, and so
when we revealed that, we sawpeople pulling out their phones,
(29:48):
going where's Madeira?
And so we have a hundred and Ithink we have 120 kids going to
Madeira this summer, andSylvania has been a great spot.
We've been to other places thatwe thought might work out, like
in Chile, but the weather wastoo harsh during the summer
months for us.
But that concept has worked out, worked out pretty well, and so
we've got an idea that nobodyknows about except the office,
and so everybody signs an NDA.
(30:09):
Nobody can speak a word ofwhere we're going until July 8th
, but that concept has beengreat.
So one of the things that Ilearned is you don't need a lot
of trips, you need the righttrips, so you don't have to have
everything.
So sometimes people go throughand think that, oh, you have to
have 50 or 70 or 80 trips, andno, you don't.
But you can scale those tripsand make them fine tune and make
(30:32):
them better and better and thatseems to have worked really,
really well.
And so a number of our tripshave sometimes as many as nine
groups.
One trip has 15 differentgroups that go out during the
summer at different times.
It's staggered during thesummer and the group size is 12
and two, so 12 kids and twoleaders.
So we don't ever really getlarger than that.
But it's worked out nicely thatthat's a small group and
(30:53):
everybody gets a chance to bewith each other and share that
experience together.
A larger group might water downthat whole group experience a
little bit.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
So I know you're in the teen and kid outward bound
business, but would you ever dothis for adults?
Speaker 2 (31:07):
I'll back you up a little bit.
So the outward bound we getthis all the time, so we are not
outward bound.
So outward real quick doesoutdoor wilderness experiences.
So the Outward Bound concept isto knock you down and build you
back up.
And I did an Outward Boundcourse and I did one, but I was
not going to do two.
Our business is being able tocreate an experience where kids
are challenged but also thrivein that environment and they
(31:30):
love that concept of being ableto share a group experience.
And so some are morechallenging, some are less
challenging, but it's all aboutthe group experience.
And so we're not OB and I haveto correct a lot of moms on that
because we're closer to Knowlesthan Outward Bound.
But even so, I've really kindof changed post-COVID that we've
seen the huge surge in us istrekking in Europe or being
(31:54):
again in Africa, as opposed to abackpacking trip in Colorado or
in Idaho or in Alaska.
So that's changed a little bit.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
I think I just grouped it into outward bound
because it feels like, well,you're going out and you're
having an experience.
But I see what you mean.
It is different.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
Right, we call it adventure travel for teens.
So just adventure travel, whichis different than wilderness
travel, which is different thana really harsh, hard, physically
challenging, and I understandthe concept behind those other
companies.
So what I found?
That kids are getting softerover the last 30 years and
that's true in a lot of ways,and the phone probably has a lot
(32:35):
to do with that but kids arenot willing to do the hard
things anymore.
Some of them are not willing todo that.
Adults are not willing to dothe hard thing anymore, and so
we've seen that.
So companies like Knolls andOutward Bound that were doing
the hard things are finding itmore challenging to be able to
find people that want to say yesto that.
So for us, can it be challenging?
(32:57):
Yes, can it be fun?
Absolutely.
Can it be transformative, 100%?
And if we have that concept overthere about how do they feel
when they walk away, do they say, oh, I never want to do that
again?
That's not what we want.
We want them to be bawling inthe airport saying, oh my gosh,
I don't want this to end, andthey're crying.
I've seen them can't evenbreathe and you're
(33:17):
hyperventilating and you needlike a brown baggie to breathe
into, to keep them passing out.
That's what I want and I kindof love it, but it is an
experience that we want.
When people leave their trip,we'd love for them to come back,
but we realize that's notrealistic.
But we hope that they walk awaysaying that was the coolest
thing that I've done up to thispoint in my life.
(33:39):
My favorite questions is askthem is what's the best day
you've ever had in your life andit's interesting to talk to a
22-year-old or a 15-year-old andcan we give them the best day
that they've ever had up to thatpoint in that's amazing and, as
you were saying, what was thebest day of your life?
Speaker 1 (33:57):
I was going through these moments that I can
remember and, aside from the keymoments like marriage and birth
of my children and stuff, itwas like being in Gokyo, which
is a 16 day hike in EverestNational Park, and I think
there's something about the awe,like the way your body feels,
(34:19):
that attaches the memory withjust like I want to go back
there.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
And we realize oftentimes we can't recreate
that, but you have that feelingand that memory that you have
and I tell folks all the time Iwant them to ideally think about
this in a week or a month or ayear, but really I want them to
think about this in 10 week or amonth or a year, but really I
want them to think about this in10 years or 25 years.
There's a great book called DieWith Zero that a guy recommended
(34:44):
to me, and part of this, theconcept, is die with zero in
your bank account because you'vegiven your money away to your
inheritance, to your children,You've given money away to
charity and you have enough tosurvive on.
But it's also it's about diewith zero regrets and I think a
lot of times as we get older andI've seen this now with my
contemporaries I can't go climbKilimanjaro because I got a bad
(35:05):
knee or I can't take the timeoff.
And what this book also talksabout is having those
experiences when you're younger,when you have your health and
you have those opportunitiesover there that you can really
stare at that time, because itis harder.
My siblings can't do it.
I'd like to think I could stilldo a lot of it, but there's
certain things that I can't.
But we want kids to realize hey, have these experiences now
(35:29):
while you can, and you will lookback and finally say, hey, I
did that.
So one of the big things thatwe're dealing with right now is
FOMO fear of missing out forboys.
Do you have sons?
Oh yeah, what they don't wantto leave home because they might
miss out with their friends,absolutely.
And so FOMO is.
It's a real thing.
(35:49):
So girls are taking over theworld, and girls we have.
If you look at our number inour office, it's dominated by
women.
If you look at the folks thatare signing up early, it's girls
.
The guys will drag their feetfear of missing out, and what
they're going to miss out on isan experience that they will
remember for the rest of theirlives.
Oftentimes they could do that,so we have to be able to
(36:11):
convince them.
So we've got a campaign gettingready to get started.
About what does FOMO look like?
And FOMO looks like dancing inthe rain in Albania.
Fomo look like.
And FOMO looks like dancing inthe rain in Albania.
Fomo looks like, you know,hugging somebody at the summit
of Kilimanjaro.
Fomo looks like sharing a mealon the side of a river in Idaho.
That's what FOMO is like.
And so, with these kids beingable to do that and realize,
okay, I don't do it now, I mightnot ever do it, and so being
(36:34):
able to talk about, you know,about that trek that you did at
Everest.
You remember that when you're70, 80 years of age.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
And finally, yeah, we've talked about we want to
bring the kids there, but ouryoungest is only nine and she
needs to be just a little bitolder to be able to tolerate.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, how strenuousit is.
Yeah, so let's say, a parentwants their kid to go for all of
the obvious reasons, but thekid is resistant because of FOMO
or because of nervousness.
(37:01):
Do you think the parents shouldpush?
So parents, do push.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Here are a couple of things.
So, hunter, my daughter went toa great camp in North Carolina
for six years and it's myfavorite girls camp in the South
.
But I told her she's not goingto go back because her old man
knows moon dancing.
She could go on moon dance forfree.
She was kicking a little bitbut I said, trust me, she went
on nine trips.
She has friends from all overthe US.
So I pushed a little bit.
(37:26):
I didn't push too much, but Ipushed a little bit.
Sometimes it needs a little bitof a push, it needs a little bit
of a challenge.
We're going to keep them safe,we're going to keep them
well-fed, we're going to keepthem in good hands, but we're
not going to necessarily keepthem comfortable.
So they need to learn how to becomfortable when they're
uncomfortable, and that's a goodlesson in life to be able to
have.
How do you get comfortable whenthings are a little bit
(37:47):
uncomfortable and it's notreally leaving the comfort zone?
There's a great guy named AlexHonnold that he's a famous
climber, did with the movie FreeSolo.
He talks about expanding thecomfort zone.
So you just kind of stretchwhat you're comfortable with and
so you're not really leavingthat, you're just expanding that
.
It's good for kids to be ableto have that.
Now let me also say, too, thatwe have some pretty strict
(38:08):
guidelines and if folks breakthe rules, consequences happen.
We had, two years ago, heardabout some kids that snuck out
in Thailand and went to a barand got something to drink, and
I heard about it and there wereeight kids involved in that.
There were three or four kidsthat were not.
As soon as we heard about it,we're going to send eight home.
We found out that we're notjust eight.
(38:29):
There were nine in the othergroup that came home.
17 kids were sent home and thatwas a good message for us.
To be able to tell parents isthat and some of these kids were
friends with my daughter and itdid not matter at all and we
had parents who called up andsaid, hey, they only had one sip
, it did not matter at all.
The rules were this and we sent17 kids home and then we
(38:49):
immediately sent out a messageto everybody else and we had
umpteen responses.
Thank you for doing that, thankyou for fulfilling this role
that you said hey, this is whatwe're going to do if you break
these rules, and so parentsunderstand that and they want
that, because we know what'sgoing on with teenagers in a lot
of places.
But it can't go on.
When we're responsible for them, when they're in our care, none
(39:12):
of that can happen.
Let me share also somethingelse that folks want to get
involved.
Are you in Atlanta?
Is that where you're living now?
Speaker 1 (39:20):
I'm out on the West Coast now.
Oh, you are yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
Well, atlanta is great and it's also tough for us
because we get a lot of Atlantakids and so we freeze a lot of
those spots over there forAtlanta kids because we get
inundated.
If we took all those Atlantakids we have too much.
And so we open up enrollment inAugust and we wait till a
certain day it's like the 25thof August and then we open it up
(39:42):
at nine o'clock and then thephones just, or the phones
didn't even blow up anymore, sothe internet blows up for us to
the point where a lot of tripsare full that day for particular
cities, and so if you're a 15year old girl from Atlanta per
se, it's hard to get on a tripunless you've been on one before
, unless you can find somethingthat might not be your first or
your second or your third ormaybe even your fourth trip
(40:04):
choice.
And so we believe and we found,that kids just want to
experience moon dance, notnecessarily going to a certain
destination or certainactivities, but they just want
to be with other kids and havethis experience.
And so it's worked out quitewell.
But we also have to manage ourwait list, and so we've got 250,
300 on a wait list right nowand we have space, but we don't.
(40:27):
We're waiting for the guys tocome in, and the guys will come
in.
We know we've got about 800,900 guys on board already, but
we know when they're going tocome in later on, and it's
typically January, february,after the holidays and going.
Oh, I'm not sure what I'm goingto do, and that might be a
little bit of a push from momand dad.
The girl spots are almostcompletely full for next summer.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
Oh wow.
So then are you still trying togrow this business, or are you
now just working on efficiencies?
Speaker 2 (40:54):
A couple of things.
One, trying to be moreefficient in everything that
we're doing, which has been nice.
I'd like to see it grow alittle bit more.
But I'm also at the age toowhen I'm thinking about that
transition, that succession overthere.
And I've been talking to somefolks over there who are much
more interested in seeing couldit grow in the kid market, could
it grow in the adult market.
And so the adult market is I'veheard this for years the heck
(41:17):
with the kids.
What about us?
And there is a massive desireto go and do these fun things
that the kids are doing.
But then to make thatcommitment it's harder.
The adult industry is massive.
That is an area that we'vetalked about.
If we can really kind of focuson not only fine-tuning what the
kids are doing but also startto get into the adult market too
(41:38):
, that would be a greatopportunity there.
That market for us.
They're probably 40 to55-year-old parents and my
contemporaries they're all done,they're all aged out.
All their kids are in their 30snow, they're all grandparents
and physically they can't do alot, but that 40 to 55-year-old
crowd absolutely can.
There's a younger crowd alsothat may not be married, that
(42:00):
may not have kids that woulddesire to do some things too.
So we're looking at all that,but nothing yet, and I'd love to
do this for the rest of my life, but I'm not, I can't, and and
I also realize the business isbigger than me and I'd love to
be able to find somebody that isas passionate and wants to take
this for another 30 years.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
Yeah, I'm sure you will find that ideal person when
that ideal company that isgoing to take over the reins
when that time comes, and I'msure you'll find the right fit.
So you mentioned there'sopportunity out there.
There's clearly space in themarket for anyone that's
listening in who's aspiring tobe an entrepreneur, and maybe
(42:42):
they too are an adventureenthusiast or they're a rock
climber or a mountain biker or acamp leader, for example.
What advice would you give themfor creating a business around
giving life experiences likethis?
Speaker 2 (42:57):
I think the one thing there are a lot of dreamers out
there.
There are a lot of people thathave ideas and a lot of people
say, oh gosh, I'd like to dothis and this and this.
I've heard it forever.
So it's about believing inyourself.
It's about you've got to grind.
You can't get knocked down andfail to get back up.
You must always get back up.
Learning as much about how asmall business operates learning
(43:19):
how a larger business operates.
I wish I had taken more coursesin business when I was younger,
so I had to kind of learn on thefly.
This has been a business schoolover the last 30 years.
But what I would say is if youare passionate about something,
if you believe in something, ifyou really want to do it, you'll
miss an opportunity.
If you really want to do it,you'll miss an opportunity if
(43:40):
you don't go after it.
And my dad missed anopportunity.
He regretted until the day thathe died that he missed an
opportunity to become anentrepreneur when he was younger
.
He had family, didn't want totake the risk.
He talked about that justbefore he passed away.
That lesson over there wasreally loud and clear to me is
(44:00):
that I might not have known alot, but I loved kids and I
loved the outdoors and I wantedto make a run at it, and if I
didn't make it year two, I'dhave been okay with it.
What would have beendisappointing to me is if I
never had tried, if I never saidI'm going to try to do this and
gotten into something else.
And I can't tell you how manyother friends that never tried,
(44:23):
and so I'm not quite sure and Idon't know how.
I was fortunate to be able todo this.
Sometimes I'm on an island andeverybody that works for me I
adore everybody that works forme, but they're all Gen Zs and
so I'm surrounded by all folksin their 20s, which is, I think,
maybe keeping me a little bityounger, but it's also.
They are passionate about whatwe're doing, they're passionate
(44:45):
about our business and they'rethe ones that give me the energy
to be able to successfullyoperate all of this.
And so finding some really good, smart people that can help you
out and you hear it all thetime find people that are
smarter than you.
That's pretty easy to do.
These young people coming outof school are so bright, so
(45:06):
dynamic and looking for apurpose to have in life as
opposed to chasing that dollar.
And there will always be peoplethat are going to chase the
dollar.
But what we're finding?
A lot of the youngerindividuals coming into the
workforce that look at purposewith meaning and want to make
something more than just apaycheck.
Speaker 1 (45:23):
Well, I think they're shortcutting what a lot of
people at least I feel in mygeneration made a mistake with,
which was we chased money a lotand we're circling back to
purpose later.
But Gen Z and Gen Alpha lookslike they're kind of just
keeping it aligned the whole waythrough.
It's amazing.
So just as a final questionhere, if you could go back and
(45:46):
talk with yourself when you werein your early twenties, what
life wisdom would you giveyourself?
Speaker 2 (45:52):
I think I found out and again I talked about it
earlier my grandparents had thiscamp.
I went back as a 19 year oldand two days after being there I
thought this is what I want todo the rest of my life, and I
never left that.
I never said I want to dosomething else, and so,
following your dream over there,hindsight probably could have
taken a couple more courses incollege.
(46:13):
That might've helped me alittle bit more.
I love my time at Lovett.
I loved getting to know thekids.
I love getting to know thefamilies, but it didn't prepare
me for being an entrepreneur,and so 12 years at Lovett gave
me the experience of workingwith kids and working with
people, but not on the businessside of it.
So as a small business, Ineeded to learn a lot of that
(46:34):
along the way.
But also, if I'm looking at a19-year-old me and a 67-year-old
me, I'd love the fact that I'venever said no.
I never said I'm not going to dothis.
I don't believe that this isgoing to work.
It was always yes.
The toughest part aboutthinking about succession is
kind of leaving what I lovedoing.
(46:54):
That's probably the greatestgift that I've been given is
just, I wake up every day and Ilove what we get to do, even
more so now than it was 30 yearsago.
30 years ago there were a lotof bumps on the road.
There are not as many bumps,but we're just bigger.
But it's helped out.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
You've really found a magical winning spot because
you get fulfillment from this,it energizes you, it really
helps kids in their future livesand you just think about like
that unlimited domino thatyou're setting off.
I am so amazed, and the reasonwhy I even thought to reach out
(47:31):
to you was we were in theairport and I saw a group of
kids wearing moon dancesweatshirts.
They must've been coming backfor one of these trips and I was
with my family and I was like Iknow the guy that started that
and oh my gosh, I'm wonder howit's doing.
And then I looked it up andyou're everywhere and I was just
(47:51):
like wow, you, you really didit and just thank you so much
for coming on the show andsharing your story with us and
all of this incredible wisdom.
Speaker 2 (48:03):
Well, love reconnecting with you and I love
telling the story, but evenmore so I love reconnecting with
you and thank you for all ofthis.
I mean, I'm humbled by beingable to chat with you, so it's
great fun, and please tell yourwhole family I said hello.
Speaker 1 (48:17):
I will.
Thanks so much, Hayes.
It was so good to talk.
Speaker 2 (48:20):
So great to talk to you.
Thanks, Annie.
Speaker 1 (48:26):
Today's key takeaways .
Sometimes, when one dream fallsthrough, it opens the door to
another one that may be evenbetter.
So stay open to possibilitiesthat may be even better.
So stay open to possibilities.
These sink or swim momentschallenge you to dig deep and
discover what you're trulycapable of.
Some friends will believe inyou and some won't.
(48:48):
Focus on those who do.
Look at the marketing materialsfor potential competitors when
it comes time for you to createyour own.
If you have a service camp orclass for kids, consider
reaching out to schools topresent your offering.
You don't have to understandeverything to start a business.
It's a learning process.
(49:10):
In the beginning it can feellike survival, but you'll grow
through the challenges.
Kids crave connection,challenges and fun, and
communication skills are crucial, not just for kids, but for
everyone.
Over the last 30 years, hayeshas been working with teens and
he's noticed that teens havegotten softer over the years,
(49:32):
something that he suspectsphones may have a lot to do with
.
Whether you're a parent or a kid, cell phones are taking over
our lives, and this discussionis important to protect our
futures.
Communication skills areincredibly important for life,
well-being and connection toothers.
Shared experience in person iswhere real growth can happen,
(49:55):
not on a screen.
So it's up to us together torecognize what cell phones are
doing to our lives and alsothose of our children.
Time is life's biggestcompetitor.
If you live to be 80, you'llhave about 30,000 days in your
life.
How will you make them count?
Ask yourself what was the bestday of your life?
(50:17):
Then consider how you cancreate more days like that.
Get comfortable with beinguncomfortable.
You don't have to leave yourcomfort zone entirely, just
expand it.
Focus on less and improve thequality of what you do, whether
it's offerings, trips or goals.
Trust is important for yourteam, for your subcontractors
(50:42):
and for your clients.
More is not better.
Sometimes, focusing on less andjust improving on a smaller
selection is better.
If you have a dream, it's aboutbelieving in yourself.
You've got to grind.
It's about believing inyourself You've got to grind.
You can't get knocked down andfail to get back up.
You must always get back up.
(51:04):
In Hayes' words, if you arepassionate about something, if
you believe in something, if youreally want to do it, you'll
miss an opportunity if you don'tgo after it.
Maybe you'll make it to yeartwo and maybe you won't.
But what if you never try.
Say yes, you can do this andbelieve in yourself.
(51:24):
And for a few bookrecommendations, there's Die
With Zero by Bill Perkins,unreasonable Hospitality by Will
Garrido and Setting the Tableby Danny Meyer.
That's it for today.
I release episodes once a week,so come back and check it out.
Have a great day.
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