March 25, 2025 • 42 mins
Today we’re diving into the world of publishing with Jackie Ashton—literary agent, journalist, and founder of Bookmark, a boutique agency helping thought leaders bring impactful books to life.
Before launching The Bookmark Agency, Jackie was an agent at Lucinda Literary, where she landed major publishing deals for authors like Dave Pell (Please Scream Inside Your Heart) and Scott Shigeoka (Seek). With a deep understanding of the publishing industry, she specializes in helping authors craft books that don’t just share expertise but resonate with readers, disrupt industries, and fill market gaps with empathy over ego.
She also shares her knowledge in The Big Idea, her free newsletter packed with insights on writing books that matter. And as a journalist and essayist, her work has appeared in The New York Times, The Washington Post, and Salon.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to how I Built my Small Business.
I'm Anne McIntee, your host,and today we're diving into the
world of publishing with JackieAshton, literary agent,
journalist and founder ofBookmark, a boutique agency
helping thought leaders andchange makers bring impactful
books to life.
She specializes in helpingauthors craft books that don't
(00:32):
just share expertise butresonate with readers and fill
market gaps.
She also shares her knowledgein the Big Idea, her free
newsletter packed with insightson writing books that matter,
and, as a journalist andessayist, her work has appeared
in the New York Times, theWashington Post and Salon.
(00:53):
You can find a link through toher business in the episode's
description.
Jackie, thank you for beinghere.
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
It's great to be here .
Speaker 1 (01:05):
What made you decide to start your own boutique
literary agency?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
I had been working as a literary agent for the last
few years when the pandemic hitand, like a lot of industries,
the book publishing industryprior to the pandemic was
geographically isolated, for themost part in New York.
I was working as an agentbefore the pandemic in San
Francisco, so working remotelybut still sort of feeling like
New York is where you had to be.
But then the pandemic hit andit really changed the
(01:33):
opportunity, as I see it, forpeople working in publishing to
be anywhere they want to be, andit also changed the dynamic
around having a physical office.
So the cost to start my ownagency were so low and the
opportunity was very differentthan it had been a few years
before so it just seemed like ano brainer to do it myself.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
What can you tell us about what you believe makes a
book proposal end up in theslush pile, like what makes them
bad?
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Yeah, so the number one thing I say to prospective
authors about that is there's asignificant difference between a
book idea that's interesting toyou or your mom versus a book
that's interesting to, hopefully, millions of people.
So there are lots of, like youknow, really moving and
interesting ideas that areinteresting to you or a small
group of people, but it's reallyhard to find that book idea
(02:20):
that will resonate with,hopefully, millions of readers.
And it's something that hasn'talready been said, which is
becoming harder and harder toachieve, especially with, you
know, ai.
Creating new books and newcontent it's like saying
something new is reallychallenging now.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
How would you steer someone in the right direction?
Speaker 2 (02:36):
So I'd give them a few tips.
They need to have what I callthe H-mark factor.
So there was a really popularbook called Crying in H-mark,
which I did not sell orrepresent the author, michelle
Zahner.
She wrote about one of the mostcommon topics, which is someone
getting cancer and dying.
It's like one of the mostcommon things that people write
about because it's such a hardexperience and so it's really
important to you, the persongoing through it.
(02:56):
But just to write about it in adifferent way is really
difficult.
And so she wrote about thatexperience of her mom getting
sick and ultimately dying ofcancer, by talking about Korean
food.
And that's why it's calledCrying in H Mart, because H Mart
is like the Korean food marketthat she was in when she started
bawling, crying for the firsttime.
She didn't have a following atthe time.
She sort of had the perfectstorm of several things coming
together all at once.
(03:17):
One was just a factor thatshe's just an amazing writer, so
that helps.
Two was that she gave it what Ialso I call a container.
So instead of telling us aboutthe chemotherapy and the
mother's hair falling out, shewrote about the tension between
her and her mom at the kitchen.
She wrote about her mother'ssister and that dynamic all
connected to food.
(03:37):
There were a million otherthings she could have written
about.
She's now a very popularmusician.
She is a lead singer in a bandcalled Japanese Breakfast.
She could have written aboutthat.
She barely mentions that in thebook and that's another mistake
a lot of first-time authorsmake is they try to cram
everything in the book and it'smore important to think about it
like a work of art and justpick your angle.
That's really different, reallysurprising.
(03:58):
Like study the other books thatare in this area and ask
yourself what is something thatonly I could say, that no one
else can say about this topic?
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Can you give us an example of a book proposal that
landed in front of you andimmediately piqued your interest
, and why?
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Yes, so there's several.
There's one book that came outlast year.
It's called Seek how CuriosityCan Transform your Life and
Change the World, and the author, Scott Shigeoka, is a curiosity
expert and he was working as afellow at the Berkeley Center
for Greater Good and, like manyauthors, when his proposal first
came to me, it was primarilywritten as a memoir or his
(04:34):
personal story, and I reallyencouraged him to change it,
because a memoir is it's reallyhard to do.
Well, what Michelle Zahner didis amazing, but that's like you
know, top 0.05% of writers interms of their quality can
actually accomplish that.
And not to say that Scott wasn'ta good writer he was a
journalist for the WashingtonPost another outlet for a while
but I saw what was valuableabout his proposal is that what
(04:57):
he learned about curiosity was away to change the world, as he
said.
It was a way to bridge culturaldivides and a way to bring
people together, and I thoughtwhat do we need more than that
in this world right now?
Then a little bit of a how tobased on somebody's experience
and professional expertise howdo we bring people together and
not apart?
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Okay.
So what questions could someonepotentially ask themselves if
they wanted to find that bigidea?
Yeah, if they wanted to promptand do some journaling to tease
it out.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
The first thing to ask yourself is if you could
shout out from the rooftops onestatement or question about your
topic and one thing you wantedeveryone to know, what would it
be?
One statement?
That's a good place to start.
Then I encourage them to drilldown and, you know, look at
bestselling books in thiscategory, look at articles that
are trending online in thiscategory and ask yourself, like,
(05:48):
what is like everyone sayingabout this topic that I disagree
with, or what's not being saidabout this topic?
And so another good example ofthat is another client of mine.
She has a book coming out nextyear with Flatiron and her book
is called Undimmed and it's aninvitation for people to take a
(06:09):
look at what she calls dimmersin your life.
So it could.
For her it was alcohol, itcould be social media, it could
be cigarettes, it could be TV,and she offers these series of
awarenesses.
She calls them to examine thosebehaviors, which was very
opposed to the idea of namingherself as an addict, because
she wasn't yet to that place andI didn't see anybody talking
(06:29):
about a way to approach whatmight become an addiction or
what is an unhealthy habit inthat way.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Yes, there are books about the formation of habits,
but there's nothing really onthe other end for when it
switches from a habit tounhealthy.
Yes, that's a reallyinteresting timely topic.
Yeah, so book proposals arewhat like 70 to 80 pages long,
right?
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Yeah, I mean I usually advise people to keep
them more at like 30 to 50 ifpossible, because more isn't
necessarily better.
My job as an agent is to helpthe author create 30 to 50 pages
, if that's what it takes toreally sell themselves and their
idea and the possibility.
But to literally have theeditor nodding their head at
every single page.
So with 80 pages, there's a lotof pages where you could not
(07:15):
have a nodding of a head or,even worse, have someone get
bored and put it down.
So you really need to keep themengaged at every page and at
every page you want the editorto be saying to themselves you
know, this is amazing.
I've never seen anything likethis.
There's no one's talking aboutthis and this is the person to
write this book.
Because they read, I mean, inaddition to all the books
they've read in this category,they're also reading all the
(07:36):
proposals on this topic, all theones that you know came in and
someone else bought, or all theones that they're reading and
then passing on.
In addition to you know,amazoncom millions and millions
of books.
They're also reading all thepotential books.
So you have a really toughcritic reading your book
proposal and that is the thingthat sells the book.
You're not there.
You don't get a chance to bethere until you win that battle
first.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
So you have to hook them pretty quickly.
Yeah, beyond the description,the overview and the big idea,
what are the other key elementsthat make a compelling
nonfiction book proposal?
Speaker 2 (08:07):
So what I tell authors is their overview is the
most important part of theproposal and that's like the
first part of the proposal.
That's really shouldn't be morethan about two to three pages
long and it answers thequestions why this book?
Why me?
Why now?
And you really need to paint aclear picture for the editor in
those couple of pages.
You know why this book.
(08:27):
If you're writing about anytopic that we can think of,
unless it was invented yesterday, there's probably many, many
books on it already, so why dowe need another one?
And editors will also be askingwhy a book?
Could it be an article?
Could it be a podcast?
Could it be, you know, someother product?
Books are expensive to make andhard to sell, so you have to
make a good case that a book isneeded.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
And if you're an unknown author, what are your
real chances of getting atraditional deal?
Speaker 2 (08:51):
It's really, really, really hard.
I won't sugarcoat it.
I think in the memoir categoryit's like you've got to be a New
York Times level, pulitzerPrize level writer to achieve
that.
If you look at the bestsellersin the memoir category, a lot of
them are famous people.
So the other way is if you'refamous or if you have a lot of
(09:12):
followers.
But in the nonfiction category,I would say in the last five or
six years that I've been in thisbusiness, it's become
increasingly harder every year,unfortunately, because there's
just so much competition, notonly competition, you know, in
terms of other books, butcompetition for people's
attention.
We used to put an author on theToday Show and it was like, oh,
new York Times bestseller, slamdunk.
You know, everyone will buythis book.
(09:33):
And now, when you know, myclient, scott Shigoka, did get
on the on the Today Show and hisbook did really well, but it's
not the slam dunk that it usedto be in terms of the number of
sales you see happening after abig media hit like that.
And so for that reason,nonfiction authors today really
are required to have a largeplatform and access to their
readers.
So, whether it's through apodcast or speaking engagements
(09:54):
throughout the year or Instagramfollowing, it doesn't really
matter the channel so much.
That kind of depends on thebook, but you have to show the
publisher that people arealready coming to you for this
topic.
Information on this topic.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
So, now that you've honestly revealed that it's
actually quite difficult for anauthor who is unknown to go the
traditional route, how do youfeel about the different routes
available these days betweentraditional, hybrid and
self-publishing?
Speaker 2 (10:19):
I think that it depends on the author's
intentions with the book interms of like, how I feel about
them or which ones I recommend,because people write books for
different reasons.
For some people it's a storythey have to tell.
For others, they want it to belike a calling card for their
business and they want to beable to hand it out to clients.
Some people really do want thatPenguin Random House mark of
(10:40):
approval and achievement andexcellence, and so it really
depends on the author'sintentions, and I think they're.
You know, self-publishing canalso work really well and
sometimes for a first-timeauthor who, who just really
doesn't have a good shot ofgetting a deal with a major
publisher, that's a great way togo.
So, yeah, lots of options.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
What would you say about the marketing efforts?
So, if you go traditional, howmuch of the book success is due
to the publisher's efforts andhow much is due to the author's
efforts?
Speaker 2 (11:09):
You know, the publisher's efforts obviously
don't hurt and they can betremendously helpful, but I
think, like most things in life,you know, whether it's starting
your own business or writingyour own book, the authors that
are putting in the most sweatequity around their own book are
the ones that end up being mostsuccessful.
And because that also usuallyaligns with the author also
being somebody that's workedhard to develop their platform
(11:30):
and reach their readers andideally you want an author who
is sort of 10 years into thejourney of talking about this
topic and so they've spent yearsit doesn't necessarily need to
take 10, but the idea is thatthey've spent years thinking
about the idea, communicatingwith their audience, asking them
questions, co-creating withthem and then understanding what
(11:50):
the need is through theirinteraction with their readers,
instead of going off in a cornerand writing their book that
they think they need to writeand then trying to like find the
people who want the bookbecause, right, that makes sense
.
It's like if you, you know,develop a pen that has a some
kind of eraser on it that nobodywants, it doesn't sell unless
you know.
So you have to be incommunication with your
customers, which are yourreaders, and sometimes that
(12:10):
dialogue ends up sort of guidingthe author to create a
different book than they wouldhave on their own.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Sounds like you're saying that you almost need to
be fully immersed in the topicthat you're exploring and
writing about for many years.
Yes, to eventually find themissing content or angle.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Yes, a hundred percent.
A hundred percent Becausethat's the other question that
publishers will ask fornonfiction book deals is, even
if they love, you know, theylove the idea, they love the
concept, they will askthemselves like is this author
the right person to write thisbook or is this somebody that's
just been, you know, dabbling inthis for the last year or so?
Like I said, it doesn't have tobe a decade necessarily.
(12:48):
My client, cecily Mack, is hername, and she, you know, is the
one who is writing this bookcalled Undimmed, and she has a
following on Instagram.
She has a community that she'screated on Instagram called
Clear Life, and she's got apodcast that she does
interviewing amazing people likeYoung Pueblo and talking about,
you know, their journeys togive up their dimmers, and I
(13:09):
would say she probably had beenworking on it for about seven
years in total, but herInstagram and her sub stack, I
think she built within the lastlike year or two and it's it
really took off, which alsoshows you that the timing is
right.
You know, every time I openedthe New York times, I see an
article about how people aregiving up drinking and it's
becoming so that's.
The other thing is timelinessand trendiness.
(13:30):
So that's another asset thatMichelle Zahner had.
Purely by luck, she is Koreanand it just her book happened to
come out when people were intoK-pop and Korean skincare and so
all things Korean were reallysort of taking off, and I'm sure
that she probably didn't careabout that.
This was her story and that'sher heritage, but it just helped
her because there were probablymore media opportunities and I
(13:51):
think Cecily will have thatadvantage when her book comes
out, because the conversationaround not drinking is very
timely.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Oh yeah, we've been hearing about that here in wine
country too.
That timing, though, is a bithard to predict, right?
Yes, because if you're pitchingyour book, how long does it
actually take, like, what is thetimeline that you go through
from securing a book deal tothen having it out in the world?
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Yeah, yeah, and this is what makes it so difficult
for people who work in thisindustry and also for authors,
is that it's trending nowbecause that's really all we
(14:40):
have, or at least what we thinkis coming down the pipe, and we
have no idea.
I mean, the pandemic's a greatexample.
There were plenty of people whohad books coming out in 2020
that just got completelyoverlooked because people were
buying masks and toilet paperand they weren't paying
attention to what books werecoming out that week and there
were just so many things thatwere unpredictable.
So it's a challenging marketfor that reason, because you
(15:02):
really don't know what marketyou're going to be trying to
sell into once your book comesout.
And that again goes back to whyit's so important to have that
direct access to your readers,because, again, like I said
about the Today Show hits, itused to be the case that if an
author came in with a proposaland they had connections at time
magazine and the New York timesand they had all these media
(15:23):
connections, that was really aboon to their proposal.
But now that's less powerfulbecause it's like well, I mean,
we don't know that they're goingto want to write about this or
we just don't you know, butwhereas, like, if you have a
massive newsletter, no one'sgoing to list, no one's going to
take that from you and we can'tcontrol what's happening in the
(15:44):
world two years from now.
But if you keep growing yournewsletter list, you can bet
that that's probably going to bea larger list than it is today,
and so that's more of a surebet.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Sounds like there's an element of planning, but
there's also an element of luck.
It reminds me of this businessI heard about in New Zealand and
they imported thousands of RVsand Airstreams that just so
happened to land in New Zealandright when the pandemic hit and
they sold all of them and madelike 10 or 20 million in a year.
So that timing was lucky.
(16:09):
So, for a first time author,realistically what should they
expect in terms of book salesand earnings, like what is
deemed a success?
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Yeah, I mean I'm going to answer this question
sort of like a politician.
It's really hard to say itreally does depend, because
every marketing campaign andlaunch campaign is so different
and so much of it is sounpredictable, and you would
think that publishers that haveworked in this business for
decades would have that formuladown to know like, okay, this is
what you should expect.
(16:40):
They really don't.
They really don't.
For some books, a TikTokinfluencer went on there and
talked about their book and ittook off.
And for other people it just sohappened that everybody was
talking about bird flu orsomething that was just
completely unexpected, and soit's really hard to kind of
calculate in advance what thatmight be.
But the way that publishers doit when they go to acquire a
book is they create a P&L like aprospective P&L for your book
(17:04):
and they look at what otherbooks have done that are going
to be sitting on a similar shelfas this book, with authors from
a similar background as you.
So they're not going to compareyour book to Oprah Winfrey's
book, but they are going tocompare your book to other
people who are alongside youprofessionally and then sort of
look at how those books did andestimate how many copies they
think they might sell, whattheir expenses are going to be,
(17:26):
and that's how they come up withthe advance that they offer,
and it could range.
You know, for self-publishedbook it's going to be in the red
.
You're going to be payingsomebody to create your book and
cover the expenses, but on theflip side, you're going to have
all the control over what yourcover looks like, who you hire
as an editor.
It's just totally under yourcontrol because you're you're
bearing all the costs.
And then, yeah, so for a bookthat they predict is going to do
(17:46):
really well, you know you mightget half a million dollars or
more, and advance is basicallylike a prepayment.
It's basically like this iswhat we think we're going to
make on the book.
And so then, as you sell yourbook for real sort of
discounting against that advanceand reaching the whole level of
the advance in terms of salesis called earning out.
After you earn out, you startto earn royalties.
I would say most first-timeauthors do not earn out their
advances.
Some do, but certainly the oneswith lower advances do more
(18:09):
frequently.
And you know publishers can dothis because they have, you know
, a long list of authors andsome are up here and some are
down here, and so it's a littlebit of a portfolio way to run
the business, and they've gotPrince Harry who's carrying all
the weight.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
So now at Bookmark Agency, you're a solo
entrepreneur, so this is youworking and choosing and
deciding.
What has that been like sinceopening?
What has it been like and howmany clients can you carry at
one time?
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Yeah, that's a great question.
It's been great.
I think I decided to go outbecause of the reasons I stated
and then also because I feltlike I had.
I was certainly continuing tolearn at the agency where I was,
but I felt like I had learnedenough that I could take on the
risk of going out on my own.
And the one, the one thing Iwas nervous about after I got
over the fear of like, will mycurrent clients come with me,
(18:58):
which they they did.
The main fear I had was like,am I still going to get as many
potential new clients coming inthe door and are they going to
be good prospects?
And I was pretty certain thatwould be the case because at
that point most of my clientswere coming to me through my own
referrals, like other clientsI'd worked with were referring,
referring others to me.
But I just wasn't sure.
I wasn't sure if they wouldreally come now that I wasn't at
a New York literary agency andnow that it was me running it,
(19:21):
and that turned out to not be aproblem at all.
I had lots of referrals comingto me.
But I think the challenge that Iface is what you said, like how
many clients can you manage atonce, because it's a very it's a
feast or famine business.
So that's a financial challengeas well as a just operational
management challenge.
Publishing kind of works inwaves and cycles and it seems
(19:42):
like all the good proposals allcome in on the same week and
everybody seems to finish theirmanuscript on the same day, even
though they're not supposed to.
So how many clients I canmanage at a time varies based on
where the current ones that Ihave are in the cycle.
So that's something that I'malways working on and looking
for is how to do what I do moreefficiently and faster and how
(20:04):
to better coach authors how tocreate their proposal in a
systematic and timely fashion.
But it's hard because it's notlike a widget, it's a work of
art.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
There's so many variables at play.
It sounds like you're kind of acontractor of a book.
Yeah yeah, that's interesting.
So, as an agent, how do youactually earn revenue?
Are you paid based on thesuccess of the book?
Do you coach or do you havecourses?
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Yeah, so the primary bread and butter is selling
books to publishers.
So for the clients that Irepresent as their agent, I earn
15% of whatever the authortakes in, and that's a pretty
standard industry-based rate.
So when the author is given,let's say, $200,000 book advance
(20:52):
, I earn 15% of that.
If they earn out that advanceand they start to earn royalties
, I earn 15% of that.
The challenge is that thosepayments are paid out over a
number of years.
Even if they got half a milliondollar advance, they usually
paid that advance over two tothree years, and that's also
something that's changed.
So, yeah, so it used to be sortof in the industry against the
(21:14):
code of ethics to do anythingabove and beyond that in terms
of, like coaching or courses,because it was rightfully so,
seen that you know that thattakes away from what you're
doing representing the clientsthat you represent.
But now that has changed.
I'm a member of the AmericanAssociation of Literary Agents,
ala, and it's like a you knowcode of ethics organization and
(21:36):
they've updated that languagebecause it's really hard for
agents to earn enough money tomake a living, especially new
agents, as they're buildingtheir lists and if they're being
paid as authors are, you know,over a number of years.
So I have done some coaching,I've done some courses.
But the key is the only way todo that ethically is to only
engage in that if the clientcomes to you for that.
(21:58):
So if they know that you teachcourses and they come to you and
say I'd like to take one ofyour courses, not, I'd like you
to represent my book, and thenyou say, well, I want you to
take this class.
So that's how.
That's how the ALA deems thatit's ethical.
But yeah, a lot, of, a lot ofliterary agents have second jobs
and you know, over the years itgets easier because, like this
(22:18):
year, I year I'm earningcommission from books that I
sold last year and the yearbefore and the year before that.
So it's like, as you go, youhave your stockpile of
guaranteed revenue that youbooked the year before and the
year before that and the yearbefore that.
So it gets easier with time.
But for the first couple ofyears you're only earning 15% of
whatever little small pool ofclients you have and of that, a
(22:40):
quarter of their payment that'sgoing to hit that year.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
It reminds me a bit of a songwriter, and you have
these royalties based on theperformance of a song, and you
don't know how long that willlast If you knock one out of the
park, though that can be allyou really need.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Yeah, oh yeah, absolutely I know.
I mean, it's, like you know,not dissimilar from artists,
talent agents.
Everybody's looking for theirnext Grammy winner.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
When you branched off on your own.
How many years was it beforeyou reached a level that made it
more comfortable?
Speaker 2 (23:11):
You know it also shifts financially when you do
go out on your own too, becauseyou are able to keep that money
yourself basically, whereas whenyou're at an agency, most
agencies have a share, so you'retaking a lower percent and
that'll do Some pay salaries.
They're all a little different,but I think for me definitely
the first year it was thechallenge and then is becoming
(23:32):
easier.
But I would say the biggerchallenge too is also sometimes
there are timeline shifts.
So a book that's supposed topublish this year it doesn't
happen often, but sometimes youknow an author might have a
death in the family or for somereason needs to be deferred, or
they didn't finish themanuscript when they thought
they would.
So there are some of thesevariables where the payments get
pushed forward, and so I thinkthe question that I'm always
(23:54):
asking and the agents that I'mfriends with and talk to and
that are my colleagues, is howdo I also have whether it's
coaching or courses some sort ofoffering that is more
day-to-day that I can count onin case one of these bigger
deals that I'm working on shifts?
Because we all have the samegoal, which is we want the book
to be the best book that it canbe, and it's a work of art, and
(24:16):
sometimes the timelines aroundthat shift, or something changes
in the world and it needs tohappen earlier or later.
So you have to be a little bitflexible about that.
That's the biggest challenge isthe revenue is.
Sometimes it's a gush,sometimes it's a drip.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
It's like you were saying feast or famine.
So give us a behind the scenesidea of what it is like to be
Jackie Ashton.
You wake up in the morning.
What does your email inbox looklike?
How many pitches are youreceiving?
How do you even filter throughthem?
And then, how much of your timeis dedicated toward moving your
current projects forward?
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Yeah, yeah, that's a great question.
I try to block off the firstcouple hours of the day.
Of course I'll look at my emailfirst thing and you know tend
to any fire drills that thatneed to be dealt with but I
really try to block out thefirst part of my day for any
editing or manuscript reading orproposal editing that I might
do for either current clients orcurrent prospective clients
(25:09):
that I'm considering.
Because it's really easy tosort of get, you know, dragged
around by the tail of the dog ifI don't block that out in the
morning and really do that sortof like Cal Newport, deep work
and really giving it my besteditorial morning brain.
Once I've attended to thecurrent books that are in
process or being published, thenthe next priority is the
pipeline who are the clientsthat I'm working with who are
(25:32):
close to selling a book and whatis the thing that I can do
today to move that thing forward?
And then I would say the end ofthe day is more like reading
referrals emails.
My email inbox does tend to lookoverwhelming.
I always prioritize personalreferrals, meaning referrals
that come from other people inthe book publishing industry or
referrals that come from currentclients or from friends of
(25:53):
current clients.
I always try to prioritizethose.
But I also get a lot ofrequests that come in from you
know, somebody's grandmother orjust something that is, and you
know that takes time too,because if somebody that I know,
I want to be kind and give thema reply, and hopefully not a
too jaded one, that's like Idon't know about that.
It's just tough, because a lotof people want to write books
and it's really a tough business.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
So if you're a first-time author, the idea of
writing a book has to be for thebenefit of the reader, but with
zero expectation for how itmight actually perform.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Yes, that's exactly it.
It's exactly it.
And of course, you know,certainly there are people who
write books that are simply anexpression of are very ambitious
and successful in their field,and so it's often daunting to
them or confusing to them thatsomeone might not want their
book because they've been sosuccessful at doing what they do
(26:47):
.
But a book is a completelydifferent beast, right, it's a
completely different product,and so that's.
You know, part of my job ishelping prospective clients and
current clients understand thatwhat you're creating when you're
making a book is a verydifferent thing.
It's like almost like adifferent language, and I'm
helping them translate what theydo in their day-to-day into
into the book world and into thebook format.
Because you're you're trying totake your, you know, your
(27:10):
genius, your thing that you dothat no one else can do, and
communicate it in a way thatsomeone who is sitting, you know
, maybe in the dark with aflashlight, all alone, in a way
that can keep them engaged andkeep them interested and keep
them turning the pages, andyou're not there to explain it
and you're not there to say, oh,but keep reading, because
chapter three is where it reallygets good, and think about how
many times you grab a book andyou read four pages and you put
it down.
So you're trying to avoid that.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
So what do you not have access to as a boutique
literary agent?
That you did when you were atthe bigger agency, and then how
do you access those resourceswhen you need them?
Speaker 2 (27:44):
That's a great question.
The agency where I waspreviously was also relatively
small, so it's not significantlydifferent.
But the big New York agencieshave benefits and salaries and
then also the budget to buysoftware.
So I don't have access to thosethings.
But I think that therelationships that I've been
(28:04):
able to build with people, justvirtually and also face to face
when I've gone to New York tomeet with publishers, those are
the people that I that I reallylean into and lean on, and I
think you know, the publishingindustry is still a pretty
opaque industry, but there'smore information coming out,
there's more access.
So I just try as much as I canto stay connected to the people
that I know well, who are reallyplugged in, and also to read
(28:25):
everything I can about what'shappening and, yeah, just to
stay curious and ask a lot ofquestions.
And sometimes there there aren'tanswers.
You know I asked the questionthat you asked me about like
what, what, how many copies doesa book like XYZ sell?
Or what made XYZ books sosuccessful, and sometimes it's
like I don't know.
You know, how did you know amusician that nobody had ever
heard of now have six Grammysand be performing at the
(28:47):
Superbowl this weekend.
It's like you know, sometimessomething just takes off and you
can't really put your finger onquite exactly what it is.
So we're all trying to likecatch the moon in book
publishing.
But I think that you know, nomatter whether your book is a
New York Times bestseller andyou sell millions of copies, or
you know you self-publish it andit sells 500 copies, I think
that if the words that you puton the page are meaningful to
(29:09):
you and they reach somebody elseand change their life in some
positive way, then it'sworthwhile.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
What do you think the landscape is going to look like
or evolve into in the next fiveto 10 years, given the rise of
AI?
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's such a huge challenge.
I think that the world willalways need good art and I think
that AI is going to present alot of challenges in terms of
copyright issues and just theway that audiobooks are recorded
.
That's a big place where we'reseeing AI infiltrate.
(29:43):
But I think, just like music, Idon't think the need for
humanity in literature is goingto change.
Selling books is going to beincreasingly difficult, I think,
but book publishing is ripe fordisruption, so it's not
necessarily a bad thing, and Ithink that human authors the
need for them, is not going away.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Do you think there's ever the potential for, say, the
middle 80%?
So you've got the top 10% ofauthors who are bestsellers
because they're famous or theyjust have a plugin some way, and
then you have the first timeauthors who are at the bottom,
like, is there any real room andpotential for a middle section
in there?
Speaker 2 (30:21):
I hope so.
I really do.
I think it's really a bigchallenge right now.
As much as people in theindustry want to see people have
an opportunity to put theirbook into the world, if they're
an unknown, the cards are reallystacked against them.
But I also think thatdisruption is a big part of our
culture in this country and Ithink I would not be surprised
(30:41):
to see surprising or unexpecteddisruption happen.
I think the industry is reallyright for it and I think the
people that work in the industryare also interested in that and
trying to figure out a way togive people an opportunity to
write their story and tell theirstory, no matter who they are.
And self-publishing is a greatoption, I mean it's.
It doesn't work for everyonebecause it requires a lot of
(31:02):
hustle and a lot of effort, butif you have something important
to say and you want to, you wantto put it out there.
I think the opportunity isthere.
But you may not get a half amillion dollar book deal from
Simon and Schuster or one of thebig publishers, but you know
it's so.
The other thing is the successof your first book is important
to publishers in terms of booktwo or book three, but it also
(31:25):
might take a few tries.
So it's also not a bad idea toself-publish a few books and
sort of get your feet wet andstart to figure out what you
really want to talk about, whatyou want to say, or do it in
articles or do it on yourpodcast, before you really try
to put pen to paper in a waythat you want to see published
by a major publisher anddistributed in a big way.
It's like you know.
You have to kind of realizethat it takes skill and you're
not going to hit a home run thefirst time you pick up a
baseball bat.
(31:46):
People have this like romanticnotion about writing a book and
there's some sort of like ideathat we should all be good at it
.
I mean, many thought leadershave important things to say,
but to be able to write it in away that resonates with a wide
audience, that's a hard thing toaccomplish, and so for that
reason, authors also sometimeswork with ghostwriters who just
translate their words intoliterature, because that's what
(32:07):
they do.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
Is this something that you do?
Speaker 2 (32:10):
I've done this.
Yes, I've ghostwritten a coupleof books, and a lot of my
clients do it, sometimes noteven just for the skill but for
the time.
You know, I work with a lot ofentrepreneurs and people who
have full-time jobs.
So writing a book is, you know,it's a big endeavor.
So sometimes it's just aboutpartnering with somebody who can
take on that task of doing theresearch and doing, you know,
all of the writing, while you'rethe person that's giving the
(32:32):
ideas and the structure andscaffolding of the book.
Michelle Obama had her bookGhostwritten.
Barack Obama did not.
I think he likes to tease herabout that, but it's very common
in nonfiction.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
As the ghostwriter, do you get credits as the author
?
Speaker 2 (32:46):
Usually the sort of de facto acknowledgement is the
author will thank theghostwriter in the
acknowledgements in the backsection of the book.
Sometimes ghostwriters will getwritten with on the cover or
they'll get some otheracknowledgement, but the
acknowledgement section of thebook is usually where that shows
up.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
It's interesting how that is a regular part of
publishing.
To me it's very interesting.
I know it's crazy, I know.
I mean it makes sense when youexplain it and when you really
think about it, because you'repairing someone's skill level
with someone's platform and thencreating something together.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Yes, yes, yes, I know it's crazy.
You would assume that books arewritten by the authors.
In most cases, it was writtenby them.
It's almost like a translator.
Yeah, they're taking thethoughts and the ideas and
because I mean, the challengewith writing is, like you know,
new writers, first-time writersthey'll sit down and they'll
(33:37):
write a story and it makes senseto them, but then they hand it
to somebody else and they readit and they're like what you
were aware and they leave outdetails because they're you know
, they know them in their brainand they don't know that they
need to actually spell it outword by word.
So it's really challenging andhumbling to try to tell a story
that somebody, like I said, youknow, in a in a dark lit room
(34:03):
3000 miles away, can fullyunderstand and engage with.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
It's a real talent, right, so they don't get lost.
Yeah, so in the time thatyou've been running Bookmark,
what have you learned aboutbusiness that you think anybody
else who's listening in couldreally benefit from knowing?
Speaker 2 (34:20):
What advice would you give to somebody who wants to
leave their full-time job andbranch off and give it a go?
I would say, first of all, gofor it.
I mean, obviously, obviously Icaution that with you know,
assuming that you have done allthe required research and have
some skill in order tofacilitate that.
But hire good people.
I mean, whether it's just youknow your accountant or
freelancers build a good teamaround you.
And I would also say, justalways be looking at the bottom
(34:43):
line, always be looking at youknow.
It's a business right, and Ithink one of the things that is
challenging sometimes is in thiskind of business you really
become friends with people.
You become friends with yourclients.
You really want to give themeverything or how.
That's how I feel A lot ofagents have a reputation of just
like closing the deal and thenthey disappear, and that's sort
of what's necessary to keep yourbottom line healthy.
There's always sort of this tugof war between, like, the level
(35:05):
of client service that I wantto give people versus what I
actually have available to keepthe business afloat, and so it's
helpful to just ask thequestion like what is the one
thing that needs to happen toclose this deal, to move this
book forward, but also to befocused on the business as well
as the relationship and alsojust have great relationships
(35:25):
with your clients.
Over-deliver for them when youcan and set reasonable
expectations.
That's another thing.
I think a big part of my job issetting reasonable expectations
for prospective authors,because people come in and I
understand the sort of romanticnotion of getting a giant book
deal and going on a world tourand I don't want to be Debbie
Downer when I work with myclients but I also really try to
(35:47):
set very realistic expectationsfor authors around how much
money they might get, how muchtime they might get from their
editor, what their book mightultimately do in the world
without totally crushing theirdreams.
All good client management, Ithink, comes down to
over-deliver on expectations,set an expectation and then
over-deliver on it if you can.
But it's impossible to do thatif the expectations are
(36:08):
completely disconnected fromreality.
We see a lot in this industryand it's sort of I don't want to
dash people's dreams becausethere are those stories of books
that just are totallyunexpected hits.
But it's a business, right,it's a business and the best
books win and the best bookssell and there usually aren't
very many of them, and so youtry again.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
I think having that transparency, as you were saying
, and communicating through theexpectations and keeping those
expectations low is going to besetting somebody up for greater
success than if people imaginethat they're going to write a
bestseller straight off the bat.
Yeah, if you were to go backand have a conversation with
yourself when you were in yourearly twenties, what life wisdom
(36:47):
would you give yourself?
Speaker 2 (36:48):
Gosh, that's such a great question.
I think I would say trustyourself.
The only person who knows whatyou are meant to do in this
world and what's going to bemost rewarding for you is you,
especially when you're younger.
I think I spent so many yearslike looking around to ask, oh,
should I do this?
Like, is this what I should bedoing?
(37:09):
Or thinking about what peoplein my family did.
Nobody in my family worked inbook publishing or literature.
I didn't even take Englishcourses in college.
It took me until I was in mythirties to figure out that the
literary world was the place Iwas supposed to be.
So I had to almost had to likego back to the kid that I was
when I was nine years old and Iwould stay up till two in the
morning reading because Icouldn't put a book down.
(37:30):
And now, looking back, it'slike, of course this is what I
do.
I've always had my nose in abook and I've always loved
language and words and foreignlanguages.
You know just quotes and turnsof phrases, quotes from movies,
like.
When I look back on my life,it's like this is clearly a love
and a passion that I've alwayshad, but I just didn't put it
together until I was in mythirties.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
I think you're right.
A lot of our passions startemerging when we're teens and
most of us just put them on theback burner for a bit because we
have to become adults, chasecareer, make money, and some of
us let go of that person.
But you held onto her, so goodfor you.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
No well, thanks, and I think sometimes, as an agent
too, I try to do that when I can.
Of like this person has nofollowers.
I don't know if I can get thema deal, but I'm going to try
because I really see somethinghere and I believe in this
writer and I believe in thisauthor and sometimes we get
lucky.
Sometimes those books end upmaking it, and I think a lot
most of the editors I know feelthat way too, where we're all
looking for that diamond in therough and they're there it's.
(38:24):
You know, it's just it is a bitof an uphill battle, but but
yeah, to just remember that yourart is meant to be put in the
world, whether it's to a bigaudience or a small one, it just
happens to be a challenge whenyou're talking about, like you
know, the small, small, smallpercent that actually gets to
(38:45):
work with a major publisher.
But there's lots of other waysto go and there's like a path to
get there eventually or not.
But I would always say, tellyour story somehow, some way, if
you feel that that calling yeah, I love that, jackie.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
Thanks for enlightening us on the literary
world.
Jackie, thanks for enlighteningus on the literary world.
I often interact with otherswho have an expertise or story
that they think the world couldbenefit from knowing, or maybe
they just want to tell, and so Ithink that this episode will
answer a lot of those unknownsfor them and help point them in
the right direction.
So thanks for coming on,absolutely.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
Thank you so much for having me having me Today's key
takeaways.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
A great book isn't just what excites you and your
mom.
It has to hook a much wideraudience.
If you want a book that sells,you need an idea that speaks to
millions, not just the peoplewho already know and love you.
You don't have to tell everydetail of your story.
Focus on what truly mattersInstead of covering everything.
Choose an angle that's unique,surprising and truly different.
Study the books in your spaceand ask yourself what can I say
(39:51):
that nobody else can?
If you had one shot to shoutyour message from the rooftops,
what would you say?
Now drill down, look atbestsellers in your category and
ask what's everyone saying thatI disagree with, or what's not
being said at all?
A strong book proposal doesn'tneed to be long.
It needs to be undeniable.
30 to 50 pages is enough.
Your editor should be noddingat every page, thinking this is
(40:15):
fresh, this is compelling.
This person is the one to writethis book.
Your overview is your book'selevator pitch.
Make it unforgettable In justtwo to three pages.
Answer why this book?
Why me?
Why now?
Publishers don't just buy ideas.
They invest in people whoalready have an audience coming
to them for insight, whetherthat's through speaking
(40:36):
engagements, a podcast, socialmedia or another platform it all
matters.
Getting a book deal is just thebeginning.
The real success comes from howmuch effort you put into
marketing it.
The authors who hustle, whobuild relationships, who show up
for their book those are theones who win.
Ideally, you've been talkingabout your book's topic for say,
10 years.
The best books come from peoplewho have been in conversation
(41:00):
with their audience long beforethey ever typed the first
sentence.
If you want to write somethingtruly needed, listen to the gaps
, what's missing, what hasn'tbeen said yet.
The trends and timing are partskill, part luck.
Some books hit at exactly theright moment, but you can't
control that.
What you can control is writingsomething that will still
(41:21):
matter years from now.
Traditional publishing moves ata glacial pace.
Expect a two-year runway fromdeal to bookshelf.
If you're in this for instantgratification, consider
self-publishing.
Big ideas don't mean much ifthey don't resonate with real
people.
You might have somethingworld-changing to say, but can
(41:42):
you say it in a way that makessomeone stop, think and feel?
If you're branching out on yourown, be clear-eyed about
expectations, set boundarieswith your clients.
Over-deliver when you can, butalways, always, keep an eye on
your bottom line.
At the end of the day, only youknow what you're truly meant to
do.
The world will have opinions,but the only one who can decide
(42:06):
what's most rewarding for you isyou.
That's it for today.
I release episodes once a week,so come back and check it out.
Have a great day.
Welcome to how I Built my Small Business.
I'm Anne McIntee, your host,and today we're diving into the
world of publishing with JackieAshton, literary agent,
journalist and founder ofBookmark, a boutique agency
helping thought leaders andchange makers bring impactful
books to life.
She specializes in helpingauthors craft books that don't
(00:32):
just share expertise butresonate with readers and fill
market gaps.
She also shares her knowledgein the Big Idea, her free
newsletter packed with insightson writing books that matter,
and, as a journalist andessayist, her work has appeared
in the New York Times, theWashington Post and Salon.
(00:53):
You can find a link through toher business in the episode's
description.
Jackie, thank you for beinghere.
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
It's great to be here .
Speaker 1 (01:05):
What made you decide to start your own boutique
literary agency?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
I had been working as a literary agent for the last
few years when the pandemic hitand, like a lot of industries,
the book publishing industryprior to the pandemic was
geographically isolated, for themost part in New York.
I was working as an agentbefore the pandemic in San
Francisco, so working remotelybut still sort of feeling like
New York is where you had to be.
But then the pandemic hit andit really changed the
(01:33):
opportunity, as I see it, forpeople working in publishing to
be anywhere they want to be, andit also changed the dynamic
around having a physical office.
So the cost to start my ownagency were so low and the
opportunity was very differentthan it had been a few years
before so it just seemed like ano brainer to do it myself.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
What can you tell us about what you believe makes a
book proposal end up in theslush pile, like what makes them
bad?
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Yeah, so the number one thing I say to prospective
authors about that is there's asignificant difference between a
book idea that's interesting toyou or your mom versus a book
that's interesting to, hopefully, millions of people.
So there are lots of, like youknow, really moving and
interesting ideas that areinteresting to you or a small
group of people, but it's reallyhard to find that book idea
(02:20):
that will resonate with,hopefully, millions of readers.
And it's something that hasn'talready been said, which is
becoming harder and harder toachieve, especially with, you
know, ai.
Creating new books and newcontent it's like saying
something new is reallychallenging now.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
How would you steer someone in the right direction?
Speaker 2 (02:36):
So I'd give them a few tips.
They need to have what I callthe H-mark factor.
So there was a really popularbook called Crying in H-mark,
which I did not sell orrepresent the author, michelle
Zahner.
She wrote about one of the mostcommon topics, which is someone
getting cancer and dying.
It's like one of the mostcommon things that people write
about because it's such a hardexperience and so it's really
important to you, the persongoing through it.
(02:56):
But just to write about it in adifferent way is really
difficult.
And so she wrote about thatexperience of her mom getting
sick and ultimately dying ofcancer, by talking about Korean
food.
And that's why it's calledCrying in H Mart, because H Mart
is like the Korean food marketthat she was in when she started
bawling, crying for the firsttime.
She didn't have a following atthe time.
She sort of had the perfectstorm of several things coming
together all at once.
(03:17):
One was just a factor thatshe's just an amazing writer, so
that helps.
Two was that she gave it what Ialso I call a container.
So instead of telling us aboutthe chemotherapy and the
mother's hair falling out, shewrote about the tension between
her and her mom at the kitchen.
She wrote about her mother'ssister and that dynamic all
connected to food.
(03:37):
There were a million otherthings she could have written
about.
She's now a very popularmusician.
She is a lead singer in a bandcalled Japanese Breakfast.
She could have written aboutthat.
She barely mentions that in thebook and that's another mistake
a lot of first-time authorsmake is they try to cram
everything in the book and it'smore important to think about it
like a work of art and justpick your angle.
That's really different, reallysurprising.
(03:58):
Like study the other books thatare in this area and ask
yourself what is something thatonly I could say, that no one
else can say about this topic?
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Can you give us an example of a book proposal that
landed in front of you andimmediately piqued your interest
, and why?
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Yes, so there's several.
There's one book that came outlast year.
It's called Seek how CuriosityCan Transform your Life and
Change the World, and the author, Scott Shigeoka, is a curiosity
expert and he was working as afellow at the Berkeley Center
for Greater Good and, like manyauthors, when his proposal first
came to me, it was primarilywritten as a memoir or his
(04:34):
personal story, and I reallyencouraged him to change it,
because a memoir is it's reallyhard to do.
Well, what Michelle Zahner didis amazing, but that's like you
know, top 0.05% of writers interms of their quality can
actually accomplish that.
And not to say that Scott wasn'ta good writer he was a
journalist for the WashingtonPost another outlet for a while
but I saw what was valuableabout his proposal is that what
(04:57):
he learned about curiosity was away to change the world, as he
said.
It was a way to bridge culturaldivides and a way to bring
people together, and I thoughtwhat do we need more than that
in this world right now?
Then a little bit of a how tobased on somebody's experience
and professional expertise howdo we bring people together and
not apart?
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Okay.
So what questions could someonepotentially ask themselves if
they wanted to find that bigidea?
Yeah, if they wanted to promptand do some journaling to tease
it out.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
The first thing to ask yourself is if you could
shout out from the rooftops onestatement or question about your
topic and one thing you wantedeveryone to know, what would it
be?
One statement?
That's a good place to start.
Then I encourage them to drilldown and, you know, look at
bestselling books in thiscategory, look at articles that
are trending online in thiscategory and ask yourself, like,
(05:48):
what is like everyone sayingabout this topic that I disagree
with, or what's not being saidabout this topic?
And so another good example ofthat is another client of mine.
She has a book coming out nextyear with Flatiron and her book
is called Undimmed and it's aninvitation for people to take a
(06:09):
look at what she calls dimmersin your life.
So it could.
For her it was alcohol, itcould be social media, it could
be cigarettes, it could be TV,and she offers these series of
awarenesses.
She calls them to examine thosebehaviors, which was very
opposed to the idea of namingherself as an addict, because
she wasn't yet to that place andI didn't see anybody talking
(06:29):
about a way to approach whatmight become an addiction or
what is an unhealthy habit inthat way.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Yes, there are books about the formation of habits,
but there's nothing really onthe other end for when it
switches from a habit tounhealthy.
Yes, that's a reallyinteresting timely topic.
Yeah, so book proposals arewhat like 70 to 80 pages long,
right?
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Yeah, I mean I usually advise people to keep
them more at like 30 to 50 ifpossible, because more isn't
necessarily better.
My job as an agent is to helpthe author create 30 to 50 pages
, if that's what it takes toreally sell themselves and their
idea and the possibility.
But to literally have theeditor nodding their head at
every single page.
So with 80 pages, there's a lotof pages where you could not
(07:15):
have a nodding of a head or,even worse, have someone get
bored and put it down.
So you really need to keep themengaged at every page and at
every page you want the editorto be saying to themselves you
know, this is amazing.
I've never seen anything likethis.
There's no one's talking aboutthis and this is the person to
write this book.
Because they read, I mean, inaddition to all the books
they've read in this category,they're also reading all the
(07:36):
proposals on this topic, all theones that you know came in and
someone else bought, or all theones that they're reading and
then passing on.
In addition to you know,amazoncom millions and millions
of books.
They're also reading all thepotential books.
So you have a really toughcritic reading your book
proposal and that is the thingthat sells the book.
You're not there.
You don't get a chance to bethere until you win that battle
first.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
So you have to hook them pretty quickly.
Yeah, beyond the description,the overview and the big idea,
what are the other key elementsthat make a compelling
nonfiction book proposal?
Speaker 2 (08:07):
So what I tell authors is their overview is the
most important part of theproposal and that's like the
first part of the proposal.
That's really shouldn't be morethan about two to three pages
long and it answers thequestions why this book?
Why me?
Why now?
And you really need to paint aclear picture for the editor in
those couple of pages.
You know why this book.
(08:27):
If you're writing about anytopic that we can think of,
unless it was invented yesterday, there's probably many, many
books on it already, so why dowe need another one?
And editors will also be askingwhy a book?
Could it be an article?
Could it be a podcast?
Could it be, you know, someother product?
Books are expensive to make andhard to sell, so you have to
make a good case that a book isneeded.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
And if you're an unknown author, what are your
real chances of getting atraditional deal?
Speaker 2 (08:51):
It's really, really, really hard.
I won't sugarcoat it.
I think in the memoir categoryit's like you've got to be a New
York Times level, pulitzerPrize level writer to achieve
that.
If you look at the bestsellersin the memoir category, a lot of
them are famous people.
So the other way is if you'refamous or if you have a lot of
(09:12):
followers.
But in the nonfiction category,I would say in the last five or
six years that I've been in thisbusiness, it's become
increasingly harder every year,unfortunately, because there's
just so much competition, notonly competition, you know, in
terms of other books, butcompetition for people's
attention.
We used to put an author on theToday Show and it was like, oh,
new York Times bestseller, slamdunk.
You know, everyone will buythis book.
(09:33):
And now, when you know, myclient, scott Shigoka, did get
on the on the Today Show and hisbook did really well, but it's
not the slam dunk that it usedto be in terms of the number of
sales you see happening after abig media hit like that.
And so for that reason,nonfiction authors today really
are required to have a largeplatform and access to their
readers.
So, whether it's through apodcast or speaking engagements
(09:54):
throughout the year or Instagramfollowing, it doesn't really
matter the channel so much.
That kind of depends on thebook, but you have to show the
publisher that people arealready coming to you for this
topic.
Information on this topic.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
So, now that you've honestly revealed that it's
actually quite difficult for anauthor who is unknown to go the
traditional route, how do youfeel about the different routes
available these days betweentraditional, hybrid and
self-publishing?
Speaker 2 (10:19):
I think that it depends on the author's
intentions with the book interms of like, how I feel about
them or which ones I recommend,because people write books for
different reasons.
For some people it's a storythey have to tell.
For others, they want it to belike a calling card for their
business and they want to beable to hand it out to clients.
Some people really do want thatPenguin Random House mark of
(10:40):
approval and achievement andexcellence, and so it really
depends on the author'sintentions, and I think they're.
You know, self-publishing canalso work really well and
sometimes for a first-timeauthor who, who just really
doesn't have a good shot ofgetting a deal with a major
publisher, that's a great way togo.
So, yeah, lots of options.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
What would you say about the marketing efforts?
So, if you go traditional, howmuch of the book success is due
to the publisher's efforts andhow much is due to the author's
efforts?
Speaker 2 (11:09):
You know, the publisher's efforts obviously
don't hurt and they can betremendously helpful, but I
think, like most things in life,you know, whether it's starting
your own business or writingyour own book, the authors that
are putting in the most sweatequity around their own book are
the ones that end up being mostsuccessful.
And because that also usuallyaligns with the author also
being somebody that's workedhard to develop their platform
(11:30):
and reach their readers andideally you want an author who
is sort of 10 years into thejourney of talking about this
topic and so they've spent yearsit doesn't necessarily need to
take 10, but the idea is thatthey've spent years thinking
about the idea, communicatingwith their audience, asking them
questions, co-creating withthem and then understanding what
(11:50):
the need is through theirinteraction with their readers,
instead of going off in a cornerand writing their book that
they think they need to writeand then trying to like find the
people who want the bookbecause, right, that makes sense
.
It's like if you, you know,develop a pen that has a some
kind of eraser on it that nobodywants, it doesn't sell unless
you know.
So you have to be incommunication with your
customers, which are yourreaders, and sometimes that
(12:10):
dialogue ends up sort of guidingthe author to create a
different book than they wouldhave on their own.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Sounds like you're saying that you almost need to
be fully immersed in the topicthat you're exploring and
writing about for many years.
Yes, to eventually find themissing content or angle.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Yes, a hundred percent.
A hundred percent Becausethat's the other question that
publishers will ask fornonfiction book deals is, even
if they love, you know, theylove the idea, they love the
concept, they will askthemselves like is this author
the right person to write thisbook or is this somebody that's
just been, you know, dabbling inthis for the last year or so?
Like I said, it doesn't have tobe a decade necessarily.
(12:48):
My client, cecily Mack, is hername, and she, you know, is the
one who is writing this bookcalled Undimmed, and she has a
following on Instagram.
She has a community that she'screated on Instagram called
Clear Life, and she's got apodcast that she does
interviewing amazing people likeYoung Pueblo and talking about,
you know, their journeys togive up their dimmers, and I
(13:09):
would say she probably had beenworking on it for about seven
years in total, but herInstagram and her sub stack, I
think she built within the lastlike year or two and it's it
really took off, which alsoshows you that the timing is
right.
You know, every time I openedthe New York times, I see an
article about how people aregiving up drinking and it's
becoming so that's.
The other thing is timelinessand trendiness.
(13:30):
So that's another asset thatMichelle Zahner had.
Purely by luck, she is Koreanand it just her book happened to
come out when people were intoK-pop and Korean skincare and so
all things Korean were reallysort of taking off, and I'm sure
that she probably didn't careabout that.
This was her story and that'sher heritage, but it just helped
her because there were probablymore media opportunities and I
(13:51):
think Cecily will have thatadvantage when her book comes
out, because the conversationaround not drinking is very
timely.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Oh yeah, we've been hearing about that here in wine
country too.
That timing, though, is a bithard to predict, right?
Yes, because if you're pitchingyour book, how long does it
actually take, like, what is thetimeline that you go through
from securing a book deal tothen having it out in the world?
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Yeah, yeah, and this is what makes it so difficult
for people who work in thisindustry and also for authors,
is that it's trending nowbecause that's really all we
(14:40):
have, or at least what we thinkis coming down the pipe, and we
have no idea.
I mean, the pandemic's a greatexample.
There were plenty of people whohad books coming out in 2020
that just got completelyoverlooked because people were
buying masks and toilet paperand they weren't paying
attention to what books werecoming out that week and there
were just so many things thatwere unpredictable.
So it's a challenging marketfor that reason, because you
(15:02):
really don't know what marketyou're going to be trying to
sell into once your book comesout.
And that again goes back to whyit's so important to have that
direct access to your readers,because, again, like I said
about the Today Show hits, itused to be the case that if an
author came in with a proposaland they had connections at time
magazine and the New York timesand they had all these media
(15:23):
connections, that was really aboon to their proposal.
But now that's less powerfulbecause it's like well, I mean,
we don't know that they're goingto want to write about this or
we just don't you know, butwhereas, like, if you have a
massive newsletter, no one'sgoing to list, no one's going to
take that from you and we can'tcontrol what's happening in the
(15:44):
world two years from now.
But if you keep growing yournewsletter list, you can bet
that that's probably going to bea larger list than it is today,
and so that's more of a surebet.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Sounds like there's an element of planning, but
there's also an element of luck.
It reminds me of this businessI heard about in New Zealand and
they imported thousands of RVsand Airstreams that just so
happened to land in New Zealandright when the pandemic hit and
they sold all of them and madelike 10 or 20 million in a year.
So that timing was lucky.
(16:09):
So, for a first time author,realistically what should they
expect in terms of book salesand earnings, like what is
deemed a success?
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Yeah, I mean I'm going to answer this question
sort of like a politician.
It's really hard to say itreally does depend, because
every marketing campaign andlaunch campaign is so different
and so much of it is sounpredictable, and you would
think that publishers that haveworked in this business for
decades would have that formuladown to know like, okay, this is
what you should expect.
(16:40):
They really don't.
They really don't.
For some books, a TikTokinfluencer went on there and
talked about their book and ittook off.
And for other people it just sohappened that everybody was
talking about bird flu orsomething that was just
completely unexpected, and soit's really hard to kind of
calculate in advance what thatmight be.
But the way that publishers doit when they go to acquire a
book is they create a P&L like aprospective P&L for your book
(17:04):
and they look at what otherbooks have done that are going
to be sitting on a similar shelfas this book, with authors from
a similar background as you.
So they're not going to compareyour book to Oprah Winfrey's
book, but they are going tocompare your book to other
people who are alongside youprofessionally and then sort of
look at how those books did andestimate how many copies they
think they might sell, whattheir expenses are going to be,
(17:26):
and that's how they come up withthe advance that they offer,
and it could range.
You know, for self-publishedbook it's going to be in the red
.
You're going to be payingsomebody to create your book and
cover the expenses, but on theflip side, you're going to have
all the control over what yourcover looks like, who you hire
as an editor.
It's just totally under yourcontrol because you're you're
bearing all the costs.
And then, yeah, so for a bookthat they predict is going to do
(17:46):
really well, you know you mightget half a million dollars or
more, and advance is basicallylike a prepayment.
It's basically like this iswhat we think we're going to
make on the book.
And so then, as you sell yourbook for real sort of
discounting against that advanceand reaching the whole level of
the advance in terms of salesis called earning out.
After you earn out, you startto earn royalties.
I would say most first-timeauthors do not earn out their
advances.
Some do, but certainly the oneswith lower advances do more
(18:09):
frequently.
And you know publishers can dothis because they have, you know
, a long list of authors andsome are up here and some are
down here, and so it's a littlebit of a portfolio way to run
the business, and they've gotPrince Harry who's carrying all
the weight.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
So now at Bookmark Agency, you're a solo
entrepreneur, so this is youworking and choosing and
deciding.
What has that been like sinceopening?
What has it been like and howmany clients can you carry at
one time?
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Yeah, that's a great question.
It's been great.
I think I decided to go outbecause of the reasons I stated
and then also because I feltlike I had.
I was certainly continuing tolearn at the agency where I was,
but I felt like I had learnedenough that I could take on the
risk of going out on my own.
And the one, the one thing Iwas nervous about after I got
over the fear of like, will mycurrent clients come with me,
(18:58):
which they they did.
The main fear I had was like,am I still going to get as many
potential new clients coming inthe door and are they going to
be good prospects?
And I was pretty certain thatwould be the case because at
that point most of my clientswere coming to me through my own
referrals, like other clientsI'd worked with were referring,
referring others to me.
But I just wasn't sure.
I wasn't sure if they wouldreally come now that I wasn't at
a New York literary agency andnow that it was me running it,
(19:21):
and that turned out to not be aproblem at all.
I had lots of referrals comingto me.
But I think the challenge that Iface is what you said, like how
many clients can you manage atonce, because it's a very it's a
feast or famine business.
So that's a financial challengeas well as a just operational
management challenge.
Publishing kind of works inwaves and cycles and it seems
(19:42):
like all the good proposals allcome in on the same week and
everybody seems to finish theirmanuscript on the same day, even
though they're not supposed to.
So how many clients I canmanage at a time varies based on
where the current ones that Ihave are in the cycle.
So that's something that I'malways working on and looking
for is how to do what I do moreefficiently and faster and how
(20:04):
to better coach authors how tocreate their proposal in a
systematic and timely fashion.
But it's hard because it's notlike a widget, it's a work of
art.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
There's so many variables at play.
It sounds like you're kind of acontractor of a book.
Yeah yeah, that's interesting.
So, as an agent, how do youactually earn revenue?
Are you paid based on thesuccess of the book?
Do you coach or do you havecourses?
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Yeah, so the primary bread and butter is selling
books to publishers.
So for the clients that Irepresent as their agent, I earn
15% of whatever the authortakes in, and that's a pretty
standard industry-based rate.
So when the author is given,let's say, $200,000 book advance
(20:52):
, I earn 15% of that.
If they earn out that advanceand they start to earn royalties
, I earn 15% of that.
The challenge is that thosepayments are paid out over a
number of years.
Even if they got half a milliondollar advance, they usually
paid that advance over two tothree years, and that's also
something that's changed.
So, yeah, so it used to be sortof in the industry against the
(21:14):
code of ethics to do anythingabove and beyond that in terms
of, like coaching or courses,because it was rightfully so,
seen that you know that thattakes away from what you're
doing representing the clientsthat you represent.
But now that has changed.
I'm a member of the AmericanAssociation of Literary Agents,
ala, and it's like a you knowcode of ethics organization and
(21:36):
they've updated that languagebecause it's really hard for
agents to earn enough money tomake a living, especially new
agents, as they're buildingtheir lists and if they're being
paid as authors are, you know,over a number of years.
So I have done some coaching,I've done some courses.
But the key is the only way todo that ethically is to only
engage in that if the clientcomes to you for that.
(21:58):
So if they know that you teachcourses and they come to you and
say I'd like to take one ofyour courses, not, I'd like you
to represent my book, and thenyou say, well, I want you to
take this class.
So that's how.
That's how the ALA deems thatit's ethical.
But yeah, a lot, of, a lot ofliterary agents have second jobs
and you know, over the years itgets easier because, like this
(22:18):
year, I year I'm earningcommission from books that I
sold last year and the yearbefore and the year before that.
So it's like, as you go, youhave your stockpile of
guaranteed revenue that youbooked the year before and the
year before that and the yearbefore that.
So it gets easier with time.
But for the first couple ofyears you're only earning 15% of
whatever little small pool ofclients you have and of that, a
(22:40):
quarter of their payment that'sgoing to hit that year.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
It reminds me a bit of a songwriter, and you have
these royalties based on theperformance of a song, and you
don't know how long that willlast If you knock one out of the
park, though that can be allyou really need.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Yeah, oh yeah, absolutely I know.
I mean, it's, like you know,not dissimilar from artists,
talent agents.
Everybody's looking for theirnext Grammy winner.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
When you branched off on your own.
How many years was it beforeyou reached a level that made it
more comfortable?
Speaker 2 (23:11):
You know it also shifts financially when you do
go out on your own too, becauseyou are able to keep that money
yourself basically, whereas whenyou're at an agency, most
agencies have a share, so you'retaking a lower percent and
that'll do Some pay salaries.
They're all a little different,but I think for me definitely
the first year it was thechallenge and then is becoming
(23:32):
easier.
But I would say the biggerchallenge too is also sometimes
there are timeline shifts.
So a book that's supposed topublish this year it doesn't
happen often, but sometimes youknow an author might have a
death in the family or for somereason needs to be deferred, or
they didn't finish themanuscript when they thought
they would.
So there are some of thesevariables where the payments get
pushed forward, and so I thinkthe question that I'm always
(23:54):
asking and the agents that I'mfriends with and talk to and
that are my colleagues, is howdo I also have whether it's
coaching or courses some sort ofoffering that is more
day-to-day that I can count onin case one of these bigger
deals that I'm working on shifts?
Because we all have the samegoal, which is we want the book
to be the best book that it canbe, and it's a work of art, and
(24:16):
sometimes the timelines aroundthat shift, or something changes
in the world and it needs tohappen earlier or later.
So you have to be a little bitflexible about that.
That's the biggest challenge isthe revenue is.
Sometimes it's a gush,sometimes it's a drip.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
It's like you were saying feast or famine.
So give us a behind the scenesidea of what it is like to be
Jackie Ashton.
You wake up in the morning.
What does your email inbox looklike?
How many pitches are youreceiving?
How do you even filter throughthem?
And then, how much of your timeis dedicated toward moving your
current projects forward?
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Yeah, yeah, that's a great question.
I try to block off the firstcouple hours of the day.
Of course I'll look at my emailfirst thing and you know tend
to any fire drills that thatneed to be dealt with but I
really try to block out thefirst part of my day for any
editing or manuscript reading orproposal editing that I might
do for either current clients orcurrent prospective clients
(25:09):
that I'm considering.
Because it's really easy tosort of get, you know, dragged
around by the tail of the dog ifI don't block that out in the
morning and really do that sortof like Cal Newport, deep work
and really giving it my besteditorial morning brain.
Once I've attended to thecurrent books that are in
process or being published, thenthe next priority is the
pipeline who are the clientsthat I'm working with who are
(25:32):
close to selling a book and whatis the thing that I can do
today to move that thing forward?
And then I would say the end ofthe day is more like reading
referrals emails.
My email inbox does tend to lookoverwhelming.
I always prioritize personalreferrals, meaning referrals
that come from other people inthe book publishing industry or
referrals that come from currentclients or from friends of
(25:53):
current clients.
I always try to prioritizethose.
But I also get a lot ofrequests that come in from you
know, somebody's grandmother orjust something that is, and you
know that takes time too,because if somebody that I know,
I want to be kind and give thema reply, and hopefully not a
too jaded one, that's like Idon't know about that.
It's just tough, because a lotof people want to write books
and it's really a tough business.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
So if you're a first-time author, the idea of
writing a book has to be for thebenefit of the reader, but with
zero expectation for how itmight actually perform.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Yes, that's exactly it.
It's exactly it.
And of course, you know,certainly there are people who
write books that are simply anexpression of are very ambitious
and successful in their field,and so it's often daunting to
them or confusing to them thatsomeone might not want their
book because they've been sosuccessful at doing what they do
(26:47):
.
But a book is a completelydifferent beast, right, it's a
completely different product,and so that's.
You know, part of my job ishelping prospective clients and
current clients understand thatwhat you're creating when you're
making a book is a verydifferent thing.
It's like almost like adifferent language, and I'm
helping them translate what theydo in their day-to-day into
into the book world and into thebook format.
Because you're you're trying totake your, you know, your
(27:10):
genius, your thing that you dothat no one else can do, and
communicate it in a way thatsomeone who is sitting, you know
, maybe in the dark with aflashlight, all alone, in a way
that can keep them engaged andkeep them interested and keep
them turning the pages, andyou're not there to explain it
and you're not there to say, oh,but keep reading, because
chapter three is where it reallygets good, and think about how
many times you grab a book andyou read four pages and you put
it down.
So you're trying to avoid that.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
So what do you not have access to as a boutique
literary agent?
That you did when you were atthe bigger agency, and then how
do you access those resourceswhen you need them?
Speaker 2 (27:44):
That's a great question.
The agency where I waspreviously was also relatively
small, so it's not significantlydifferent.
But the big New York agencieshave benefits and salaries and
then also the budget to buysoftware.
So I don't have access to thosethings.
But I think that therelationships that I've been
(28:04):
able to build with people, justvirtually and also face to face
when I've gone to New York tomeet with publishers, those are
the people that I that I reallylean into and lean on, and I
think you know, the publishingindustry is still a pretty
opaque industry, but there'smore information coming out,
there's more access.
So I just try as much as I canto stay connected to the people
that I know well, who are reallyplugged in, and also to read
(28:25):
everything I can about what'shappening and, yeah, just to
stay curious and ask a lot ofquestions.
And sometimes there there aren'tanswers.
You know I asked the questionthat you asked me about like
what, what, how many copies doesa book like XYZ sell?
Or what made XYZ books sosuccessful, and sometimes it's
like I don't know.
You know, how did you know amusician that nobody had ever
heard of now have six Grammysand be performing at the
(28:47):
Superbowl this weekend.
It's like you know, sometimessomething just takes off and you
can't really put your finger onquite exactly what it is.
So we're all trying to likecatch the moon in book
publishing.
But I think that you know, nomatter whether your book is a
New York Times bestseller andyou sell millions of copies, or
you know you self-publish it andit sells 500 copies, I think
that if the words that you puton the page are meaningful to
(29:09):
you and they reach somebody elseand change their life in some
positive way, then it'sworthwhile.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
What do you think the landscape is going to look like
or evolve into in the next fiveto 10 years, given the rise of
AI?
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's such a huge challenge.
I think that the world willalways need good art and I think
that AI is going to present alot of challenges in terms of
copyright issues and just theway that audiobooks are recorded
.
That's a big place where we'reseeing AI infiltrate.
(29:43):
But I think, just like music, Idon't think the need for
humanity in literature is goingto change.
Selling books is going to beincreasingly difficult, I think,
but book publishing is ripe fordisruption, so it's not
necessarily a bad thing, and Ithink that human authors the
need for them, is not going away.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Do you think there's ever the potential for, say, the
middle 80%?
So you've got the top 10% ofauthors who are bestsellers
because they're famous or theyjust have a plugin some way, and
then you have the first timeauthors who are at the bottom,
like, is there any real room andpotential for a middle section
in there?
Speaker 2 (30:21):
I hope so.
I really do.
I think it's really a bigchallenge right now.
As much as people in theindustry want to see people have
an opportunity to put theirbook into the world, if they're
an unknown, the cards are reallystacked against them.
But I also think thatdisruption is a big part of our
culture in this country and Ithink I would not be surprised
(30:41):
to see surprising or unexpecteddisruption happen.
I think the industry is reallyright for it and I think the
people that work in the industryare also interested in that and
trying to figure out a way togive people an opportunity to
write their story and tell theirstory, no matter who they are.
And self-publishing is a greatoption, I mean it's.
It doesn't work for everyonebecause it requires a lot of
(31:02):
hustle and a lot of effort, butif you have something important
to say and you want to, you wantto put it out there.
I think the opportunity isthere.
But you may not get a half amillion dollar book deal from
Simon and Schuster or one of thebig publishers, but you know
it's so.
The other thing is the successof your first book is important
to publishers in terms of booktwo or book three, but it also
(31:25):
might take a few tries.
So it's also not a bad idea toself-publish a few books and
sort of get your feet wet andstart to figure out what you
really want to talk about, whatyou want to say, or do it in
articles or do it on yourpodcast, before you really try
to put pen to paper in a waythat you want to see published
by a major publisher anddistributed in a big way.
It's like you know.
You have to kind of realizethat it takes skill and you're
not going to hit a home run thefirst time you pick up a
baseball bat.
(31:46):
People have this like romanticnotion about writing a book and
there's some sort of like ideathat we should all be good at it
.
I mean, many thought leadershave important things to say,
but to be able to write it in away that resonates with a wide
audience, that's a hard thing toaccomplish, and so for that
reason, authors also sometimeswork with ghostwriters who just
translate their words intoliterature, because that's what
(32:07):
they do.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
Is this something that you do?
Speaker 2 (32:10):
I've done this.
Yes, I've ghostwritten a coupleof books, and a lot of my
clients do it, sometimes noteven just for the skill but for
the time.
You know, I work with a lot ofentrepreneurs and people who
have full-time jobs.
So writing a book is, you know,it's a big endeavor.
So sometimes it's just aboutpartnering with somebody who can
take on that task of doing theresearch and doing, you know,
all of the writing, while you'rethe person that's giving the
(32:32):
ideas and the structure andscaffolding of the book.
Michelle Obama had her bookGhostwritten.
Barack Obama did not.
I think he likes to tease herabout that, but it's very common
in nonfiction.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
As the ghostwriter, do you get credits as the author
?
Speaker 2 (32:46):
Usually the sort of de facto acknowledgement is the
author will thank theghostwriter in the
acknowledgements in the backsection of the book.
Sometimes ghostwriters will getwritten with on the cover or
they'll get some otheracknowledgement, but the
acknowledgement section of thebook is usually where that shows
up.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
It's interesting how that is a regular part of
publishing.
To me it's very interesting.
I know it's crazy, I know.
I mean it makes sense when youexplain it and when you really
think about it, because you'repairing someone's skill level
with someone's platform and thencreating something together.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Yes, yes, yes, I know it's crazy.
You would assume that books arewritten by the authors.
In most cases, it was writtenby them.
It's almost like a translator.
Yeah, they're taking thethoughts and the ideas and
because I mean, the challengewith writing is, like you know,
new writers, first-time writersthey'll sit down and they'll
(33:37):
write a story and it makes senseto them, but then they hand it
to somebody else and they readit and they're like what you
were aware and they leave outdetails because they're you know
, they know them in their brainand they don't know that they
need to actually spell it outword by word.
So it's really challenging andhumbling to try to tell a story
that somebody, like I said, youknow, in a in a dark lit room
(34:03):
3000 miles away, can fullyunderstand and engage with.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
It's a real talent, right, so they don't get lost.
Yeah, so in the time thatyou've been running Bookmark,
what have you learned aboutbusiness that you think anybody
else who's listening in couldreally benefit from knowing?
Speaker 2 (34:20):
What advice would you give to somebody who wants to
leave their full-time job andbranch off and give it a go?
I would say, first of all, gofor it.
I mean, obviously, obviously Icaution that with you know,
assuming that you have done allthe required research and have
some skill in order tofacilitate that.
But hire good people.
I mean, whether it's just youknow your accountant or
freelancers build a good teamaround you.
And I would also say, justalways be looking at the bottom
(34:43):
line, always be looking at youknow.
It's a business right, and Ithink one of the things that is
challenging sometimes is in thiskind of business you really
become friends with people.
You become friends with yourclients.
You really want to give themeverything or how.
That's how I feel A lot ofagents have a reputation of just
like closing the deal and thenthey disappear, and that's sort
of what's necessary to keep yourbottom line healthy.
There's always sort of this tugof war between, like, the level
(35:05):
of client service that I wantto give people versus what I
actually have available to keepthe business afloat, and so it's
helpful to just ask thequestion like what is the one
thing that needs to happen toclose this deal, to move this
book forward, but also to befocused on the business as well
as the relationship and alsojust have great relationships
(35:25):
with your clients.
Over-deliver for them when youcan and set reasonable
expectations.
That's another thing.
I think a big part of my job issetting reasonable expectations
for prospective authors,because people come in and I
understand the sort of romanticnotion of getting a giant book
deal and going on a world tourand I don't want to be Debbie
Downer when I work with myclients but I also really try to
(35:47):
set very realistic expectationsfor authors around how much
money they might get, how muchtime they might get from their
editor, what their book mightultimately do in the world
without totally crushing theirdreams.
All good client management, Ithink, comes down to
over-deliver on expectations,set an expectation and then
over-deliver on it if you can.
But it's impossible to do thatif the expectations are
(36:08):
completely disconnected fromreality.
We see a lot in this industryand it's sort of I don't want to
dash people's dreams becausethere are those stories of books
that just are totallyunexpected hits.
But it's a business, right,it's a business and the best
books win and the best bookssell and there usually aren't
very many of them, and so youtry again.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
I think having that transparency, as you were saying
, and communicating through theexpectations and keeping those
expectations low is going to besetting somebody up for greater
success than if people imaginethat they're going to write a
bestseller straight off the bat.
Yeah, if you were to go backand have a conversation with
yourself when you were in yourearly twenties, what life wisdom
(36:47):
would you give yourself?
Speaker 2 (36:48):
Gosh, that's such a great question.
I think I would say trustyourself.
The only person who knows whatyou are meant to do in this
world and what's going to bemost rewarding for you is you,
especially when you're younger.
I think I spent so many yearslike looking around to ask, oh,
should I do this?
Like, is this what I should bedoing?
(37:09):
Or thinking about what peoplein my family did.
Nobody in my family worked inbook publishing or literature.
I didn't even take Englishcourses in college.
It took me until I was in mythirties to figure out that the
literary world was the place Iwas supposed to be.
So I had to almost had to likego back to the kid that I was
when I was nine years old and Iwould stay up till two in the
morning reading because Icouldn't put a book down.
(37:30):
And now, looking back, it'slike, of course this is what I
do.
I've always had my nose in abook and I've always loved
language and words and foreignlanguages.
You know just quotes and turnsof phrases, quotes from movies,
like.
When I look back on my life,it's like this is clearly a love
and a passion that I've alwayshad, but I just didn't put it
together until I was in mythirties.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
I think you're right.
A lot of our passions startemerging when we're teens and
most of us just put them on theback burner for a bit because we
have to become adults, chasecareer, make money, and some of
us let go of that person.
But you held onto her, so goodfor you.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
No well, thanks, and I think sometimes, as an agent
too, I try to do that when I can.
Of like this person has nofollowers.
I don't know if I can get thema deal, but I'm going to try
because I really see somethinghere and I believe in this
writer and I believe in thisauthor and sometimes we get
lucky.
Sometimes those books end upmaking it, and I think a lot
most of the editors I know feelthat way too, where we're all
looking for that diamond in therough and they're there it's.
(38:24):
You know, it's just it is a bitof an uphill battle, but but
yeah, to just remember that yourart is meant to be put in the
world, whether it's to a bigaudience or a small one, it just
happens to be a challenge whenyou're talking about, like you
know, the small, small, smallpercent that actually gets to
(38:45):
work with a major publisher.
But there's lots of other waysto go and there's like a path to
get there eventually or not.
But I would always say, tellyour story somehow, some way, if
you feel that that calling yeah, I love that, jackie.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
Thanks for enlightening us on the literary
world.
Jackie, thanks for enlighteningus on the literary world.
I often interact with otherswho have an expertise or story
that they think the world couldbenefit from knowing, or maybe
they just want to tell, and so Ithink that this episode will
answer a lot of those unknownsfor them and help point them in
the right direction.
So thanks for coming on,absolutely.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
Thank you so much for having me having me Today's key
takeaways.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
A great book isn't just what excites you and your
mom.
It has to hook a much wideraudience.
If you want a book that sells,you need an idea that speaks to
millions, not just the peoplewho already know and love you.
You don't have to tell everydetail of your story.
Focus on what truly mattersInstead of covering everything.
Choose an angle that's unique,surprising and truly different.
Study the books in your spaceand ask yourself what can I say
(39:51):
that nobody else can?
If you had one shot to shoutyour message from the rooftops,
what would you say?
Now drill down, look atbestsellers in your category and
ask what's everyone saying thatI disagree with, or what's not
being said at all?
A strong book proposal doesn'tneed to be long.
It needs to be undeniable.
30 to 50 pages is enough.
Your editor should be noddingat every page, thinking this is
(40:15):
fresh, this is compelling.
This person is the one to writethis book.
Your overview is your book'selevator pitch.
Make it unforgettable In justtwo to three pages.
Answer why this book?
Why me?
Why now?
Publishers don't just buy ideas.
They invest in people whoalready have an audience coming
to them for insight, whetherthat's through speaking
(40:36):
engagements, a podcast, socialmedia or another platform it all
matters.
Getting a book deal is just thebeginning.
The real success comes from howmuch effort you put into
marketing it.
The authors who hustle, whobuild relationships, who show up
for their book those are theones who win.
Ideally, you've been talkingabout your book's topic for say,
10 years.
The best books come from peoplewho have been in conversation
(41:00):
with their audience long beforethey ever typed the first
sentence.
If you want to write somethingtruly needed, listen to the gaps
, what's missing, what hasn'tbeen said yet.
The trends and timing are partskill, part luck.
Some books hit at exactly theright moment, but you can't
control that.
What you can control is writingsomething that will still
(41:21):
matter years from now.
Traditional publishing moves ata glacial pace.
Expect a two-year runway fromdeal to bookshelf.
If you're in this for instantgratification, consider
self-publishing.
Big ideas don't mean much ifthey don't resonate with real
people.
You might have somethingworld-changing to say, but can
(41:42):
you say it in a way that makessomeone stop, think and feel?
If you're branching out on yourown, be clear-eyed about
expectations, set boundarieswith your clients.
Over-deliver when you can, butalways, always, keep an eye on
your bottom line.
At the end of the day, only youknow what you're truly meant to
do.
The world will have opinions,but the only one who can decide
(42:06):
what's most rewarding for you isyou.
That's it for today.
I release episodes once a week,so come back and check it out.
Have a great day.
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