December 11, 2024 • 30 mins
Ever wondered how to truly nurture your friendships and understand their dynamics? In Episode 67 of "How I Met My BFF," join us as we chat with Dr. John DeOca, a psychotherapist with a knack for unraveling the complexities of relationships. Leisa and Tamara kick things off with some delightful banter about Montana weather, travel tales, and Tamara's son's new driving milestone.
Dive into Dr. DeOca's fascinating journey from nursing to psychotherapy, all fueled by his passion for helping others navigate their relationships. Discover his insights on differentiating friendships, the common pitfalls we all face, and the intriguing differences between male and female friendships. Can men and women really be just friends? Dr. DeOca thinks so and shares how vulnerability and communication are key.
Tune in for a refreshing take on friendships, and don't forget to subscribe, leave a review, and share your BFF stories with us!
Connect with Dr. John DeOca:
Instagram: @dr_johndeoca
Website: https://TheRelationshipPrescriber.com
Visit our site at howimetmybff.com
Help support our show by getting some of our exclusive swag found here!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Leisa (00:01):
Hey, besties. My name is Lisa.
Tamara (00:03):
And my name is Tamara, and we're BFFs.
Leisa (00:06):
Tamara and I met when we were about 12 years old growing
up in good old Fairbanks, Alaska.
Tamara (00:11):
And we've been best friends forever since.
Leisa (00:13):
That's right. And that's why we've decided to have some
fun, friendly conversations withthe bestest of best friends.
Tamara (00:18):
We'll talk about how we became best friends, our
experiences together, and haveother best friends on the show
to share how they met. Whoknows? You never
Leisa (00:27):
know when you'll meet your next BFF.
Tamara (00:30):
Now let's get into it, how I met my BFF.
Leisa (00:34):
Welcome to another episode of how I met my BFF. Hi,
Tamara.
Tamara (00:39):
Hello, Lisa. How are you?
Leisa (00:41):
I am well. How are you?
Tamara (00:46):
Oh, you know, December in Montana. It's great. Ready
ready for winter. No snow yet,though. Yeah.
Actually, no snow, but it hasbeen cold. But yeah. The weird I
mean, I'm okay with that. A lotof people are not. And I will
say there is snow up in themountains, so it's not like, you
(01:06):
know, awful, but it's it hasbeen a very unusual December
because even on Thanksgiving, itwas like a spring day.
So I don't know what's going on,but I'll take it because I, you
know, I don't like it being coldeither, but I do live in
Montana, so I have to acceptthat.
Leisa (01:24):
Yeah. No. I get well, good. I'm glad. I, a couple of
things I've got going on, TamaraI'm not Tamara.
You're Tamara. My daughterAriana is in Canada right now.
She's gonna see Taylor Swifttonight. She's really excited.
Tamara (01:41):
Yeah. We've been waiting for this for
Leisa (01:42):
a while.
Tamara (01:43):
I'm sorry. I remember when she bought the tickets.
That was over a year ago. Yeah.Or around, I was driving to
Seattle.
Yeah.
Leisa (01:51):
It was a long time ago. So we were in just to catch
everyone up, why is she flyingto Canada to see Taylor? Is
because when Taylor was here inSouthern California and Vegas,
all very doable options, we werein Ireland. And so she was
scrolling through all the, youknow, people who were at the
(02:12):
concert and really not happyabout that, but she did have fun
in Ireland. So she's she made agoal to see Taylor Swift,
period.
Like, that was gonna happen. Andso she tried getting tickets,
like, all over the world andended up in, Canada. So not too
(02:32):
bad, not too far, and she'sgonna gonna be in van Vancouver.
Nice. And then Mark is headingout to Ireland on Sunday.
So everyone's internationaltraveling, and I'm here. I'm
still here. So there you go. Butthat's okay. What about you?
What's going on these days?
Tamara (02:52):
Oh, goodness. Just I think the biggest news or thing
that's, ever got his driver'slicense, so I'm now on kid
number 4 with who can nowindependently drive. So, that
has been very nice and we'reworking on trying to find him a
car and, yeah, I that's kind ofbeen, you know, business as
(03:16):
usual here in good old Missoula.So And
Leisa (03:19):
then does Ella have one more year? Because her
birthday's in December. Right?Does she have one more
Tamara (03:24):
year before? Yeah. Within this coming, essentially,
9 months, I'll have 2 drivers.
Leisa (03:32):
Oh my gosh. That'll be amazing. Like, you can get wish
of your wife back.
Tamara (03:39):
Yeah. We'll see.
Leisa (03:40):
Alright. Well, I'm excited because we have a
special guest today, doctor JohnDe Oca, and he is going to talk
to us about relationships. Andhe has a psychotherapy practice
where he helps people with theirrelationships. So we're getting
it straight from the source. Anexpert on relationships is here
with us today.
Welcome, doctor John. How areyou?
John DeOca (04:03):
Very good. How are you guys?
Leisa (04:04):
We're good. We're good. So tell us what prompted you to
decide to work withrelationships.
John DeOca (04:14):
Yes. So my story is a little interesting in that,
you know, I became a nurse,worked in all your various
nursing departments, ER, ICU,credit, critical care, where
else did they work, home care,all with the goal of doing my
master's to become a nursepractitioner in plastic surgery
(04:36):
and inject people's faces andmake them pretty. That's what
was what I wanted to do and Idid it, but after doing that for
2 or 3 years in a couple ofdifferent environments, whether
it was MediSpa and then workingfor a plastic surgeon, it wasn't
as gratifying as I thought itwould be. However, within these
appointments with thesepatients, this is what would be
(04:58):
coming up that was the mostrewarding where we would be
talking about relationshipissues, body image concerns, and
that kind of sparked theinterest for me to pursue this,
both business and professionalventure. And from there, it kind
of flourished.
Leisa (05:17):
Wow. That's a that must have been you've been in school
a lot then if you because youjust Too long. Yeah. Too long.
That's a lot of school.
Wow.
John DeOca (05:26):
Yeah. A lifelong learner. Mhmm.
Leisa (05:28):
Yeah. So tell us about some tips that you find you
share with your clients when itcomes to, let's say, more
platonic relationships, likefriendships or maybe other
coworkers, some something likethat.
John DeOca (05:48):
Yeah. I think the biggest thing when it comes to
friendships and I one oneauthor, and she's actually not a
therapist, that I reallyrecommend to my clients is
Shasta Nelson. She's she'spretty much a renowned
friendship expert And her firstbook, she breaks down categories
of friendships, and it kindalooks and it kinda advises
(06:10):
people to do a deep dive intothe friendships that they do
have and then the friendshipsthat that they wanna have. And
what it really does is help youexamine where you are on the
intimacy scale with yourfriendships and what are your
needs because that's really whatI'm advising clients to do. So
(06:31):
we could for those of us thatare in my industry, you know,
therapist wise, coach wise, orwhatever, loneliness is pretty
much a pandemic that we're alldealing with.
So, you know, is it the clientsthat are struggling or the the
patients that I'm seeing, arethey, you know, faced with, you
know, just companionshipdeficits, or do they want
(06:54):
someone to be sharing deepfeelings with having meaningful
conversations? So really kind oflooking deeply and kind of
figuring these out is what'sgonna be really helpful. So in
this book, what she does is whatdo your friendships look like?
Do you have friendships that youhave, like, let's say in a yoga
class, because that would belike one category of friendships
(07:14):
versus like your historicalfriends that you may not be
seeing that often, but you know,maybe if you call them and you
could tell them you're, let'ssay, you're getting divorced,
you know that they would bethere for you. However, you may
not feel as close to thembecause you're not seeing them
as often enough.
So really kind of figuring outwhere you are with all your
friendships and also where youwanna be, because once you know,
(07:37):
like, what friends you have ineach category, you kinda know
where you where you're gonnadevelop others. Does that make
sense?
Leisa (07:45):
Yeah. That does. It's it sounds almost like you need to
bust out a spreadsheet orsomething, like, depending on
how many friends you have. Doyou have people, like, write it
down or put it on a on a sheet,or do you have any
recommendations of how you keeptrack of all that?
John DeOca (08:01):
You know, we'll do it in the work with our session.
I like to and it really dependson what the client's goals are.
Ultimately, where I see peoplefalling short a lot is in those
more intimate friendshipsbecause typically what I see a
lot is that sometimes maybewe're mislabeling history for
intimacy where, you know, ifsomeone's my friend for, let's
(08:24):
say 30 years, they may be close,but what does that friendship
look like, and what is the timespent? What does the trust look
like versus, you know, just, youknow, saying you have a friend
for, you know, whatever thatlong period of time is? So it's
also too, what kind offriendships do you want?
(08:44):
Because someone may be in thearea of their life where they
may just want someone to doactivities with, which is okay.
So it's really kind of beingintrospective to do that work.
And however that looks like,throughout the work throughout
the work we're doing together,we'll do it. So this could be
like, you know, work where we'redoing, together, if that's some
(09:05):
of the goals for my clients, orthis could be something I kinda
just kinda give them to go do ontheir own, and we could kinda
look back and see where they'reat and kinda periodically check
on this together.
Leisa (09:17):
Do you see that there are any traps people fall into when
it comes to friendship orfriendship relationships or any
mistakes that that are made?
John DeOca (09:26):
Well, I think the biggest trap is that we call
everyone a friend. Like, we'reusing the word too loosely, and
I can't remember where I've seenthis recently where it's like,
well, why are we not using theword colleague? Why are we not
using the word coworker? Why,you know, sometimes when we say,
you know, we don't have feelingsfor someone, they're a friend.
(09:47):
You know, I think the biggesttrap is calling everything we
don't know what to label afriend.
And if a friend does somethingso meaningful for us, how could
we do that?
Leisa (09:59):
Like, we don't have enough words that just that
distinguish the relationship.
John DeOca (10:04):
We do.
Tamara (10:05):
We do though, but may do you think it's more of a social
media effect? Because every perevery one of our you know, if we
have 500 or 200 or a 1000friends on just Facebook,
they're called friends and I,you know yeah. Do you think it's
more of a phenomenon and socialmedia?
John DeOca (10:27):
I don't know because, like, let's say even
before social media came around,you know, I can't help but
wonder, like, you know, let'ssay you've met someone through a
friend, for example, and you hada meaningful experience with
them. And I, you know, I thinknaturally sometimes some of us
might be very inclined to callthat person a friend and maybe
(10:48):
they are to that person. Butlike, when we think about it,
are they really at that point?They would probably still fall
in that acquaintance category.But like, we we throw out that
word that word very, veryloosely.
So, I guess, you know, and itdoesn't have to be like this
external presentation of, youknow, saying you're my
(11:10):
acquaintance, you're not myfriend, but like, what is it?
What does it really mean for uson the inside? Like, is this
person really my friend, or I'mjust kinda using this word
loosely?
Leisa (11:21):
How about when the friendship changes? Like, if you
decide you want to deepen thefriendship or you want to back
away from the friendship, do youwhat what do you recommend for
people?
John DeOca (11:34):
And that's the thing too because, you know, it also
goes into now how do we handleconflict And also, how do we
handle conflict with this typeof relationship? Because, like,
we may think that, you know, Ilike to, engage with conflict
proactively, but that's justmaybe something that I do with
my romantic partner becausethat's the most intimate
(11:54):
relationship I have, or that'ssomething I do with my family,
like my brother, my sister, mymom, or my dad, because those in
those relationships are moreintimate. With friendships, like
how does conflict look for thatindividual? Like, are we
comfortable, you know, if we ifwe're ready to disengage from a
friendship per se to have thatconversation, or do we do a slow
(12:17):
fade? Do we just cut contact?
Do we say we're not talkinganymore? Is there a conversation
where we have to officially saywe're done as friends? And I
think that goes into, like, ourown value system and what we
what we wanna bring to the tableand offer our friendships and
also what we wanna see reflectedback. So, for example, if
(12:38):
someone was going to exit afriendship with us with us, how
would we want that to happen?And then kinda go forward from
there.
Leisa (12:48):
Yeah. It's tricky stuff. Where do you do you find that
you work with a lot of womenversus men, or is it equal?
Like, being a male therapist, Ithink, gosh, what a great
opportunity for men to haveanother man that they could they
could work on these types ofthings with.
John DeOca (13:08):
Well, I hope men had the mindset that you had, but I
I have more female clients thanmen because we're still I'm
still, you know, fighting thebattle to get more, men seeking
mental health treatment.
Leisa (13:22):
Yeah. And probably most of our listeners are women too.
So but but let's say there's oneman out there listening. What do
you what would you recommend formen in terms of working on the
relationships or working with atherapist? What do you
John DeOca (13:37):
You know, I think even how men approach,
friendships in general, youknow, which typically I don't
like to do gender disparities,but there is, you know,
scientific data to back it upwhere men typically have what
they call side to sidefriendships, where they involve
(13:59):
activities like, you know,playing sports, doing this. So
there's usually an activity thatsurrounds the friendship where
typically female friendships doinvolve intimacy, you know,
disclosure, having deeperconversations, you know, really
kind of get in more into theweeds with connection. So what I
(14:21):
would advise for men is tostart, especially, you know, I'm
in this case, maybe heterosexualmen, learn from their wives and
learn from their wivesfriendships and start imitating
that in their friendshipsbecause whether we're men or
women, we're still wired forconnection the same. So it's all
(14:44):
sociologic upbringing that'sdeterring that.
Leisa (14:50):
Yeah. It's so amazing how I I we have so many female
listeners and friends, and itseems to when I shared the
topic, you know, how I met myBFF, usually, a woman will have
a more visceral response to itlike, oh, oh my gosh. I can't
wait. I have I have my bestfriend. I wanna bring her on.
(15:11):
Whereas men are like, oh, that'snice.
John DeOca (15:15):
So But there are stories emerging of the
bromance, so I'm I'm veryhopeful.
Leisa (15:21):
Me too. And we had men on our show too, and I love when
there's a bromance. I there wasone, episode of, what is it? 1
of the bachelors in paradise,which I don't watch very often,
but I I saw 1 and it was thisthese 2 guys became great
friends. Neither of them leftwith a with a girlfriend or a
woman or however that works out.
(15:42):
But, they got the biggest prizeof all, I think. It it was it
was really fun to watch themconnect.
John DeOca (15:48):
Yeah. And it it it's really good to see, and I I do
think people like to see that aswell. So I think men could lean
into that a lot more.
Leisa (15:56):
How do you recommend or what do you recommend for
someone who is like, gosh, Iwanna develop some new
friendships, but I don't know,like, how would I even go about
finding a friend as an adult,you know, as an adult?
John DeOca (16:10):
Well, it's so funny. This and this is not something
necessarily I recommend.However, I was at a wedding in
the end of September, and I wasat a table. I was friends with
the bride, and I was at a tablewith the girl that was at the
wedding alone, And I was like,oh, how do you know the bride?
And the way she she set up thestory, it was like, well, we
(16:33):
were at a meetup and, we were ata meetup group and she and we
had a great time.
And I said, well, do you wannado this again? As if it was,
like, mimicking, like, theirfirst date together. And I I
just thought there wassomething, like, so heartwarming
about, like, how she describedit. And I, I would say, you
(16:54):
know, there's so many differentways to make friends. So there's
meetup groups, you know, Bumblehas an option for friends.
You know, there's so manydifferent activities if you get
kinda clear on what your hobbiesare. So like if you like
writing, there's writing groups.If you like painting, there's
painting groups. If you likeyoga, there's yoga classes. But
(17:14):
I would say ultimately, I thinkthe common theme is putting
yourself out there and kind ofbeing vulnerable.
And if something misses, don'tgive up because if you look at
it this way, we need friends.You need a job. If you don't get
the job you want, you stillgotta look for jobs. So the same
thing with friends, you keepgoing.
Leisa (17:33):
That makes sense. I did not know that Bumble had a
friend option. That's so cool.
John DeOca (17:37):
Mhmm. They do. Yeah.
Leisa (17:41):
I think I have the opposite problem. I don't know
about you, Tamara, but for me,it's like keeping track of
friends. Like, I, you know, thelonger we live, we get a lot
more friends coming along. Andthere are times where I
literally like it's like havingso many kids. Like I can't focus
(18:01):
on every one of the you know, asmuch as I want.
John DeOca (18:06):
So may if I may ask, what works for you? Or are you
still trying to developsomething to keep track of
everyone?
Leisa (18:13):
I'm not working. I'm trying to keep track of it. I
think I'm just kinda doing thebest I can. That would be that
would be my guess. And I thinkit depends on, like, I will do
something maybe for my birthday,and I'll invite a bunch of
people, who live close by.
So that would be okay. At least,we'd have once a year to to be
(18:33):
that's officially we're gonnaget together, because I just
find it too much time goes byand we're all busy and kids and
spouses and things like that. Sothat's one way that I keep in
front of people and also withsocial media as well. But I have
so many different pockets offriends because I I'm in
networking and business stuff alot. So I meet people, but then
(18:57):
they become friends as well.
So I've got, like, socialfriends and and long time
friends and then, businessfriends as well.
John DeOca (19:09):
Yeah. What I've noticed too, especially as we
get older and we're trying tokinda navigate because, you
know, people are having babies,people having grandkids, all
this, and, like, you know,relationships get more and more.
You know, everyone lovesnostalgia. Everyone loves a
tradition and kinda everyoneloves, like, that commitment to
it versus, like, hey. Are youavailable for lunch next week?
(19:32):
So it's like, if I have thisgroup where, you know, the 1st
weekend in June, we go away, orwe do the 1st weekend in June in
dinner, it seems that almost hasa better adherence than, like,
just trying to almost, like,randomly reach out when we can.
Yeah. Because the odds ofsticking to it are better.
Leisa (19:52):
Yeah. Or you just think, oh, we'll get together. We'll
get together, and then you neveryou want to, but then you don't
actually do it.
Tamara (19:58):
How do you Exactly.
Leisa (19:59):
Talk about that, Tamara? Like, how do you manage all your
different relationships?
Tamara (20:04):
I think I'm kind of in the same boat as you. I try my
best. I don't feel I alwayssucceed. But and I also kinda to
the point of getting older andalso having lived in different
parts of the country, you know,I have different time, you know,
(20:25):
just like I've noticed timeperiods, you know, have changed.
So like, as I'm becoming a momwith older kids, my, you know,
I'm gonna do things differentlythan say some of my friends who
are just now having children.
And, you know, that just isgonna take a different form of
time spent together infriendship. And, you know, some
(20:48):
people I haven't gotten to seein a while. You know, I think my
struggle that I have, and I'msure it's almost kinda like a
not immaturity, but just like Istill I can remember feeling
this way even as a little girl,but just enhance why, you know,
when going on a trip to Italy, Iwanna bring 10 of my friends
(21:08):
even though they're from alldifferent walks of life and
places because I just don'tunderstand why we can't all be
together. And, so I, you know,try my best and, caring for
friendships. But I've also hadto be, you know, I've I also
I've noticed in the pastprobably like 2 years have been
and it's also been kind of sad.
(21:30):
Like, I've been kind of moremaybe circling around that
thought of, you know, where doesthis friend, does this friend
fit into my life anymore? Andyou know, it's more of just with
friends who aren't giving thesame that I'm putting in, you
know, like the water or thegarden analogy. Like if you
don't, you know, once you putthe seeds and you still have to
(21:53):
water it and fertilize it andlet the sun, you know, shine on
it. And, and it's some of myfriendships just haven't done
that. And I know, you know, I'mnot saying I've been perfect,
but it's just it's been hardwhen I know I've made the, that
I've taken the energy to supportthat and they haven't back.
(22:14):
And so, you know, I've had tokind of step away from putting
energy where it just hasn't beenwanted or appreciated. So that
yeah. I was going to ask you,you know, just moving forward,
like, how does it work in thosescenarios where you are having
to make a decision about whetheror not you're gonna put more
energy into a friendship thatmay not be, you know, that
(22:38):
great.
John DeOca (22:40):
Well, I think the important thing here is, like,
the future can't be predicted.Right? Yeah. So let's say we
stop putting energy. Like, wedon't know where this could turn
out.
So it's kind of like in thispresent moment, like, where do I
want to take this? So it's like,do I feel this is a temporary
(23:00):
step back? Do I want to saysomething and potentially like
lean in and salvage somethingand kind of grow this and expose
myself, like, in that, like, youknow, I could be feeling sad
here that we're not connectingor that, like, I feel like I'm
investing more than you andseeing what happens there. Do I
(23:23):
wanna hold someone accountable?And that's a real thing too and
see what happens as well, or doI wanna move on and whatever
that way that looks like.
But knowing that, like, all ofthose things could happen, and
it might not be a permanentclosure and people still come
back to another, even, like,when the ugliest things are
said, you know, miracles dohappen. I've I've seen it and
(23:46):
experienced it. And also just tokeep in the back of our minds
too, because I think this isreally important about the
stories we tell ourselves and,you know, when we're saying
things like it's not appreciatedbecause who's saying that except
for you. So it's reallyimportant to see how we're
(24:09):
interpreting things because,like, you know, I really think
there's an energy, perspectiveto our relationships in general
and limiting beliefs couldreally impose on our dynamics.
Leisa (24:23):
Absolutely. John, was there anything else that you
wanted to share with ourlisteners? Oh,
Tamara (24:32):
one more. Just to kind of twist it around a little bit
because one thing we haven'treally ever done, we've talked
about it, but just hasn'thappened is and we've had a
couple, I guess, female male,but what about so I have a
number of friends that are malefriends that I would consider
some of my best friends and ityou know, we've it's been year.
(24:56):
We have quite the history andit's never been a romantic
situation. But what it you know,overall, there's this general
idea that, you know, men andwomen can't be friends. You
know, it's never that just isn'tthe way it is, but I actually
can attest that that can be thecase.
What are your thoughts on that?
John DeOca (25:16):
Oh, I'm in complete agreement with, with you. And,
you know, I hate to castjudgment and perspectives like
this, but I'm I always wonder ifpeople that think that men and
women can't be friends, if,like, we're kind of over
sexualizing the opposite sexthen. And that concerns me in
that case.
Tamara (25:37):
Yeah. That's fair.
Leisa (25:41):
I think it kinda goes back to what we were talking
about originally when, John, youwere talking about the vagueness
of the relationship of afriendship or what a friend is
or, like, you know, we say, oh,you're in the friend zone or
you've been friend zoned or
John DeOca (25:54):
Exactly. Like to
Leisa (25:55):
be friends. So it can get confusing with men and women at
times if initially at the startof the relationship, one person
is thinking, oh, and the otherperson's no. So it can make I
could see where it could gettricky, at the beginning.
John DeOca (26:15):
It does. And I think these are situations that
require even more discussionsand a little more boundaries and
that like this is a platonicfriendship. And that, like, this
is a platonic friendship. And ifthat needs to be reiterated and,
you know, reiterated, that'sfine. And if, you know, the
other person's not respectingthat, then maybe it's just not a
platonic friendship on thatperson's part.
Leisa (26:38):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they would need to say, okay. Well,
I'm okay with that, or that'snot how I feel, so I'm gonna
exit or something like that.
John DeOca (26:46):
But I also do think too friends transition into the
best romantic partners as well.So, you know, because that you
have that foundation. So
Leisa (26:56):
It's tricky.
John DeOca (26:57):
Mhmm. It does.
Leisa (26:58):
Relationships can be messy. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I I
have several male friends whoare incredible and same, Tamara,
that it was never there wasnever a hint of anything besides
platonic love and respect.
So but I will say, I do have alot more women friends than men
(27:20):
friends. Yes. Just what I wasraised with, I guess. John,
anything else that you wannashare with our listeners today?
Our best
John DeOca (27:32):
you. I think just to kinda maybe close out, I think
just, you know, overall, I thinkwe could kinda say, like,
there's no one size fits all,right, when it comes to
friendship. And I think that,you know, both the magnificent
thing and the confusing thing islike because of that, it could
be really puzzling. So, like, ifyou're listening to this and you
(27:56):
might feel like friendship ischallenging to you, like, don't
be discouraged because, like, ofall these variables we spoke
about, it could make itchallenging, but it also, like,
gives the beauty for, like,relationships to be created and
all this variety to pick from.
Leisa (28:15):
Yeah. Yeah. It's a I mean, life changing if you have
a couple of really good friends.That's that's life changing.
Where can people find you?
John DeOca (28:25):
Yeah. So I'm on Instagram at doctordr_johndioca,
and I am my on my website at therelationship prescriber.com.
Those are the best two ways tofind you. So
Leisa (28:38):
the relationship prescriber, because I think you
have, clients that will visityou virtually. Right? That you
can help people with therelationships virtually?
John DeOca (28:48):
Yes. I'm exclusively virtually, actually.
Leisa (28:51):
Oh, exclusively virtually. Okay. Cool. Yeah.
Well, that's even better.
So and you can help people inany state. Right? They don't
have to be in New Jersey.
John DeOca (28:59):
Correct. That is correct.
Leisa (29:00):
Yeah. There you go. Look at that. So if you were looking
for an a therapist, well, youmay have just found your bestie
therapist, whether it's aboutfriendships or relationships or
anything that's going on in yourmind, any limiting beliefs
you're having, you now havesomebody that you can call
besties. Alright.
Well, we'll see you next week onour how I met my BFF. See you
(29:24):
later, everybody.
Hey, bestie. Thanks for listening. If you like this
episode, be sure to hit thatsubscribe button to get notified
of new episodes and check outcool bestie gift ideas at how I
met my bff.com.
Tamara (29:39):
That's right. And also, leave us a review. Those reviews
help us out a lot and are one ofthe best ways to support us.
Leisa (29:45):
Yes. And if you have a fun story about how you met your
BFF, send us an email at info athow I met my bff.com. We would
love to hear about it.
Tamara (29:54):
Definitely. And, hey, maybe we'll have you on our next
episode.
Leisa (29:59):
That would be awesome. Until next time.
Tamara (30:01):
Love you, BFFs.
Hey, besties. My name is Lisa.
Tamara (00:03):
And my name is Tamara, and we're BFFs.
Leisa (00:06):
Tamara and I met when we were about 12 years old growing
up in good old Fairbanks, Alaska.
Tamara (00:11):
And we've been best friends forever since.
Leisa (00:13):
That's right. And that's why we've decided to have some
fun, friendly conversations withthe bestest of best friends.
Tamara (00:18):
We'll talk about how we became best friends, our
experiences together, and haveother best friends on the show
to share how they met. Whoknows? You never
Leisa (00:27):
know when you'll meet your next BFF.
Tamara (00:30):
Now let's get into it, how I met my BFF.
Leisa (00:34):
Welcome to another episode of how I met my BFF. Hi,
Tamara.
Tamara (00:39):
Hello, Lisa. How are you?
Leisa (00:41):
I am well. How are you?
Tamara (00:46):
Oh, you know, December in Montana. It's great. Ready
ready for winter. No snow yet,though. Yeah.
Actually, no snow, but it hasbeen cold. But yeah. The weird I
mean, I'm okay with that. A lotof people are not. And I will
say there is snow up in themountains, so it's not like, you
(01:06):
know, awful, but it's it hasbeen a very unusual December
because even on Thanksgiving, itwas like a spring day.
So I don't know what's going on,but I'll take it because I, you
know, I don't like it being coldeither, but I do live in
Montana, so I have to acceptthat.
Leisa (01:24):
Yeah. No. I get well, good. I'm glad. I, a couple of
things I've got going on, TamaraI'm not Tamara.
You're Tamara. My daughterAriana is in Canada right now.
She's gonna see Taylor Swifttonight. She's really excited.
Tamara (01:41):
Yeah. We've been waiting for this for
Leisa (01:42):
a while.
Tamara (01:43):
I'm sorry. I remember when she bought the tickets.
That was over a year ago. Yeah.Or around, I was driving to
Seattle.
Yeah.
Leisa (01:51):
It was a long time ago. So we were in just to catch
everyone up, why is she flyingto Canada to see Taylor? Is
because when Taylor was here inSouthern California and Vegas,
all very doable options, we werein Ireland. And so she was
scrolling through all the, youknow, people who were at the
(02:12):
concert and really not happyabout that, but she did have fun
in Ireland. So she's she made agoal to see Taylor Swift,
period.
Like, that was gonna happen. Andso she tried getting tickets,
like, all over the world andended up in, Canada. So not too
(02:32):
bad, not too far, and she'sgonna gonna be in van Vancouver.
Nice. And then Mark is headingout to Ireland on Sunday.
So everyone's internationaltraveling, and I'm here. I'm
still here. So there you go. Butthat's okay. What about you?
What's going on these days?
Tamara (02:52):
Oh, goodness. Just I think the biggest news or thing
that's, ever got his driver'slicense, so I'm now on kid
number 4 with who can nowindependently drive. So, that
has been very nice and we'reworking on trying to find him a
car and, yeah, I that's kind ofbeen, you know, business as
(03:16):
usual here in good old Missoula.So And
Leisa (03:19):
then does Ella have one more year? Because her
birthday's in December. Right?Does she have one more
Tamara (03:24):
year before? Yeah. Within this coming, essentially,
9 months, I'll have 2 drivers.
Leisa (03:32):
Oh my gosh. That'll be amazing. Like, you can get wish
of your wife back.
Tamara (03:39):
Yeah. We'll see.
Leisa (03:40):
Alright. Well, I'm excited because we have a
special guest today, doctor JohnDe Oca, and he is going to talk
to us about relationships. Andhe has a psychotherapy practice
where he helps people with theirrelationships. So we're getting
it straight from the source. Anexpert on relationships is here
with us today.
Welcome, doctor John. How areyou?
John DeOca (04:03):
Very good. How are you guys?
Leisa (04:04):
We're good. We're good. So tell us what prompted you to
decide to work withrelationships.
John DeOca (04:14):
Yes. So my story is a little interesting in that,
you know, I became a nurse,worked in all your various
nursing departments, ER, ICU,credit, critical care, where
else did they work, home care,all with the goal of doing my
master's to become a nursepractitioner in plastic surgery
(04:36):
and inject people's faces andmake them pretty. That's what
was what I wanted to do and Idid it, but after doing that for
2 or 3 years in a couple ofdifferent environments, whether
it was MediSpa and then workingfor a plastic surgeon, it wasn't
as gratifying as I thought itwould be. However, within these
appointments with thesepatients, this is what would be
(04:58):
coming up that was the mostrewarding where we would be
talking about relationshipissues, body image concerns, and
that kind of sparked theinterest for me to pursue this,
both business and professionalventure. And from there, it kind
of flourished.
Leisa (05:17):
Wow. That's a that must have been you've been in school
a lot then if you because youjust Too long. Yeah. Too long.
That's a lot of school.
Wow.
John DeOca (05:26):
Yeah. A lifelong learner. Mhmm.
Leisa (05:28):
Yeah. So tell us about some tips that you find you
share with your clients when itcomes to, let's say, more
platonic relationships, likefriendships or maybe other
coworkers, some something likethat.
John DeOca (05:48):
Yeah. I think the biggest thing when it comes to
friendships and I one oneauthor, and she's actually not a
therapist, that I reallyrecommend to my clients is
Shasta Nelson. She's she'spretty much a renowned
friendship expert And her firstbook, she breaks down categories
of friendships, and it kindalooks and it kinda advises
(06:10):
people to do a deep dive intothe friendships that they do
have and then the friendshipsthat that they wanna have. And
what it really does is help youexamine where you are on the
intimacy scale with yourfriendships and what are your
needs because that's really whatI'm advising clients to do. So
(06:31):
we could for those of us thatare in my industry, you know,
therapist wise, coach wise, orwhatever, loneliness is pretty
much a pandemic that we're alldealing with.
So, you know, is it the clientsthat are struggling or the the
patients that I'm seeing, arethey, you know, faced with, you
know, just companionshipdeficits, or do they want
(06:54):
someone to be sharing deepfeelings with having meaningful
conversations? So really kind oflooking deeply and kind of
figuring these out is what'sgonna be really helpful. So in
this book, what she does is whatdo your friendships look like?
Do you have friendships that youhave, like, let's say in a yoga
class, because that would belike one category of friendships
(07:14):
versus like your historicalfriends that you may not be
seeing that often, but you know,maybe if you call them and you
could tell them you're, let'ssay, you're getting divorced,
you know that they would bethere for you. However, you may
not feel as close to thembecause you're not seeing them
as often enough.
So really kind of figuring outwhere you are with all your
friendships and also where youwanna be, because once you know,
(07:37):
like, what friends you have ineach category, you kinda know
where you where you're gonnadevelop others. Does that make
sense?
Leisa (07:45):
Yeah. That does. It's it sounds almost like you need to
bust out a spreadsheet orsomething, like, depending on
how many friends you have. Doyou have people, like, write it
down or put it on a on a sheet,or do you have any
recommendations of how you keeptrack of all that?
John DeOca (08:01):
You know, we'll do it in the work with our session.
I like to and it really dependson what the client's goals are.
Ultimately, where I see peoplefalling short a lot is in those
more intimate friendshipsbecause typically what I see a
lot is that sometimes maybewe're mislabeling history for
intimacy where, you know, ifsomeone's my friend for, let's
(08:24):
say 30 years, they may be close,but what does that friendship
look like, and what is the timespent? What does the trust look
like versus, you know, just, youknow, saying you have a friend
for, you know, whatever thatlong period of time is? So it's
also too, what kind offriendships do you want?
(08:44):
Because someone may be in thearea of their life where they
may just want someone to doactivities with, which is okay.
So it's really kind of beingintrospective to do that work.
And however that looks like,throughout the work throughout
the work we're doing together,we'll do it. So this could be
like, you know, work where we'redoing, together, if that's some
(09:05):
of the goals for my clients, orthis could be something I kinda
just kinda give them to go do ontheir own, and we could kinda
look back and see where they'reat and kinda periodically check
on this together.
Leisa (09:17):
Do you see that there are any traps people fall into when
it comes to friendship orfriendship relationships or any
mistakes that that are made?
John DeOca (09:26):
Well, I think the biggest trap is that we call
everyone a friend. Like, we'reusing the word too loosely, and
I can't remember where I've seenthis recently where it's like,
well, why are we not using theword colleague? Why are we not
using the word coworker? Why,you know, sometimes when we say,
you know, we don't have feelingsfor someone, they're a friend.
(09:47):
You know, I think the biggesttrap is calling everything we
don't know what to label afriend.
And if a friend does somethingso meaningful for us, how could
we do that?
Leisa (09:59):
Like, we don't have enough words that just that
distinguish the relationship.
John DeOca (10:04):
We do.
Tamara (10:05):
We do though, but may do you think it's more of a social
media effect? Because every perevery one of our you know, if we
have 500 or 200 or a 1000friends on just Facebook,
they're called friends and I,you know yeah. Do you think it's
more of a phenomenon and socialmedia?
John DeOca (10:27):
I don't know because, like, let's say even
before social media came around,you know, I can't help but
wonder, like, you know, let'ssay you've met someone through a
friend, for example, and you hada meaningful experience with
them. And I, you know, I thinknaturally sometimes some of us
might be very inclined to callthat person a friend and maybe
(10:48):
they are to that person. Butlike, when we think about it,
are they really at that point?They would probably still fall
in that acquaintance category.But like, we we throw out that
word that word very, veryloosely.
So, I guess, you know, and itdoesn't have to be like this
external presentation of, youknow, saying you're my
(11:10):
acquaintance, you're not myfriend, but like, what is it?
What does it really mean for uson the inside? Like, is this
person really my friend, or I'mjust kinda using this word
loosely?
Leisa (11:21):
How about when the friendship changes? Like, if you
decide you want to deepen thefriendship or you want to back
away from the friendship, do youwhat what do you recommend for
people?
John DeOca (11:34):
And that's the thing too because, you know, it also
goes into now how do we handleconflict And also, how do we
handle conflict with this typeof relationship? Because, like,
we may think that, you know, Ilike to, engage with conflict
proactively, but that's justmaybe something that I do with
my romantic partner becausethat's the most intimate
(11:54):
relationship I have, or that'ssomething I do with my family,
like my brother, my sister, mymom, or my dad, because those in
those relationships are moreintimate. With friendships, like
how does conflict look for thatindividual? Like, are we
comfortable, you know, if we ifwe're ready to disengage from a
friendship per se to have thatconversation, or do we do a slow
(12:17):
fade? Do we just cut contact?
Do we say we're not talkinganymore? Is there a conversation
where we have to officially saywe're done as friends? And I
think that goes into, like, ourown value system and what we
what we wanna bring to the tableand offer our friendships and
also what we wanna see reflectedback. So, for example, if
(12:38):
someone was going to exit afriendship with us with us, how
would we want that to happen?And then kinda go forward from
there.
Leisa (12:48):
Yeah. It's tricky stuff. Where do you do you find that
you work with a lot of womenversus men, or is it equal?
Like, being a male therapist, Ithink, gosh, what a great
opportunity for men to haveanother man that they could they
could work on these types ofthings with.
John DeOca (13:08):
Well, I hope men had the mindset that you had, but I
I have more female clients thanmen because we're still I'm
still, you know, fighting thebattle to get more, men seeking
mental health treatment.
Leisa (13:22):
Yeah. And probably most of our listeners are women too.
So but but let's say there's oneman out there listening. What do
you what would you recommend formen in terms of working on the
relationships or working with atherapist? What do you
John DeOca (13:37):
You know, I think even how men approach,
friendships in general, youknow, which typically I don't
like to do gender disparities,but there is, you know,
scientific data to back it upwhere men typically have what
they call side to sidefriendships, where they involve
(13:59):
activities like, you know,playing sports, doing this. So
there's usually an activity thatsurrounds the friendship where
typically female friendships doinvolve intimacy, you know,
disclosure, having deeperconversations, you know, really
kind of get in more into theweeds with connection. So what I
(14:21):
would advise for men is tostart, especially, you know, I'm
in this case, maybe heterosexualmen, learn from their wives and
learn from their wivesfriendships and start imitating
that in their friendshipsbecause whether we're men or
women, we're still wired forconnection the same. So it's all
(14:44):
sociologic upbringing that'sdeterring that.
Leisa (14:50):
Yeah. It's so amazing how I I we have so many female
listeners and friends, and itseems to when I shared the
topic, you know, how I met myBFF, usually, a woman will have
a more visceral response to itlike, oh, oh my gosh. I can't
wait. I have I have my bestfriend. I wanna bring her on.
(15:11):
Whereas men are like, oh, that'snice.
John DeOca (15:15):
So But there are stories emerging of the
bromance, so I'm I'm veryhopeful.
Leisa (15:21):
Me too. And we had men on our show too, and I love when
there's a bromance. I there wasone, episode of, what is it? 1
of the bachelors in paradise,which I don't watch very often,
but I I saw 1 and it was thisthese 2 guys became great
friends. Neither of them leftwith a with a girlfriend or a
woman or however that works out.
(15:42):
But, they got the biggest prizeof all, I think. It it was it
was really fun to watch themconnect.
John DeOca (15:48):
Yeah. And it it it's really good to see, and I I do
think people like to see that aswell. So I think men could lean
into that a lot more.
Leisa (15:56):
How do you recommend or what do you recommend for
someone who is like, gosh, Iwanna develop some new
friendships, but I don't know,like, how would I even go about
finding a friend as an adult,you know, as an adult?
John DeOca (16:10):
Well, it's so funny. This and this is not something
necessarily I recommend.However, I was at a wedding in
the end of September, and I wasat a table. I was friends with
the bride, and I was at a tablewith the girl that was at the
wedding alone, And I was like,oh, how do you know the bride?
And the way she she set up thestory, it was like, well, we
(16:33):
were at a meetup and, we were ata meetup group and she and we
had a great time.
And I said, well, do you wannado this again? As if it was,
like, mimicking, like, theirfirst date together. And I I
just thought there wassomething, like, so heartwarming
about, like, how she describedit. And I, I would say, you
(16:54):
know, there's so many differentways to make friends. So there's
meetup groups, you know, Bumblehas an option for friends.
You know, there's so manydifferent activities if you get
kinda clear on what your hobbiesare. So like if you like
writing, there's writing groups.If you like painting, there's
painting groups. If you likeyoga, there's yoga classes. But
(17:14):
I would say ultimately, I thinkthe common theme is putting
yourself out there and kind ofbeing vulnerable.
And if something misses, don'tgive up because if you look at
it this way, we need friends.You need a job. If you don't get
the job you want, you stillgotta look for jobs. So the same
thing with friends, you keepgoing.
Leisa (17:33):
That makes sense. I did not know that Bumble had a
friend option. That's so cool.
John DeOca (17:37):
Mhmm. They do. Yeah.
Leisa (17:41):
I think I have the opposite problem. I don't know
about you, Tamara, but for me,it's like keeping track of
friends. Like, I, you know, thelonger we live, we get a lot
more friends coming along. Andthere are times where I
literally like it's like havingso many kids. Like I can't focus
(18:01):
on every one of the you know, asmuch as I want.
John DeOca (18:06):
So may if I may ask, what works for you? Or are you
still trying to developsomething to keep track of
everyone?
Leisa (18:13):
I'm not working. I'm trying to keep track of it. I
think I'm just kinda doing thebest I can. That would be that
would be my guess. And I thinkit depends on, like, I will do
something maybe for my birthday,and I'll invite a bunch of
people, who live close by.
So that would be okay. At least,we'd have once a year to to be
(18:33):
that's officially we're gonnaget together, because I just
find it too much time goes byand we're all busy and kids and
spouses and things like that. Sothat's one way that I keep in
front of people and also withsocial media as well. But I have
so many different pockets offriends because I I'm in
networking and business stuff alot. So I meet people, but then
(18:57):
they become friends as well.
So I've got, like, socialfriends and and long time
friends and then, businessfriends as well.
John DeOca (19:09):
Yeah. What I've noticed too, especially as we
get older and we're trying tokinda navigate because, you
know, people are having babies,people having grandkids, all
this, and, like, you know,relationships get more and more.
You know, everyone lovesnostalgia. Everyone loves a
tradition and kinda everyoneloves, like, that commitment to
it versus, like, hey. Are youavailable for lunch next week?
(19:32):
So it's like, if I have thisgroup where, you know, the 1st
weekend in June, we go away, orwe do the 1st weekend in June in
dinner, it seems that almost hasa better adherence than, like,
just trying to almost, like,randomly reach out when we can.
Yeah. Because the odds ofsticking to it are better.
Leisa (19:52):
Yeah. Or you just think, oh, we'll get together. We'll
get together, and then you neveryou want to, but then you don't
actually do it.
Tamara (19:58):
How do you Exactly.
Leisa (19:59):
Talk about that, Tamara? Like, how do you manage all your
different relationships?
Tamara (20:04):
I think I'm kind of in the same boat as you. I try my
best. I don't feel I alwayssucceed. But and I also kinda to
the point of getting older andalso having lived in different
parts of the country, you know,I have different time, you know,
(20:25):
just like I've noticed timeperiods, you know, have changed.
So like, as I'm becoming a momwith older kids, my, you know,
I'm gonna do things differentlythan say some of my friends who
are just now having children.
And, you know, that just isgonna take a different form of
time spent together infriendship. And, you know, some
(20:48):
people I haven't gotten to seein a while. You know, I think my
struggle that I have, and I'msure it's almost kinda like a
not immaturity, but just like Istill I can remember feeling
this way even as a little girl,but just enhance why, you know,
when going on a trip to Italy, Iwanna bring 10 of my friends
(21:08):
even though they're from alldifferent walks of life and
places because I just don'tunderstand why we can't all be
together. And, so I, you know,try my best and, caring for
friendships. But I've also hadto be, you know, I've I also
I've noticed in the pastprobably like 2 years have been
and it's also been kind of sad.
(21:30):
Like, I've been kind of moremaybe circling around that
thought of, you know, where doesthis friend, does this friend
fit into my life anymore? Andyou know, it's more of just with
friends who aren't giving thesame that I'm putting in, you
know, like the water or thegarden analogy. Like if you
don't, you know, once you putthe seeds and you still have to
(21:53):
water it and fertilize it andlet the sun, you know, shine on
it. And, and it's some of myfriendships just haven't done
that. And I know, you know, I'mnot saying I've been perfect,
but it's just it's been hardwhen I know I've made the, that
I've taken the energy to supportthat and they haven't back.
(22:14):
And so, you know, I've had tokind of step away from putting
energy where it just hasn't beenwanted or appreciated. So that
yeah. I was going to ask you,you know, just moving forward,
like, how does it work in thosescenarios where you are having
to make a decision about whetheror not you're gonna put more
energy into a friendship thatmay not be, you know, that
(22:38):
great.
John DeOca (22:40):
Well, I think the important thing here is, like,
the future can't be predicted.Right? Yeah. So let's say we
stop putting energy. Like, wedon't know where this could turn
out.
So it's kind of like in thispresent moment, like, where do I
want to take this? So it's like,do I feel this is a temporary
(23:00):
step back? Do I want to saysomething and potentially like
lean in and salvage somethingand kind of grow this and expose
myself, like, in that, like, youknow, I could be feeling sad
here that we're not connectingor that, like, I feel like I'm
investing more than you andseeing what happens there. Do I
(23:23):
wanna hold someone accountable?And that's a real thing too and
see what happens as well, or doI wanna move on and whatever
that way that looks like.
But knowing that, like, all ofthose things could happen, and
it might not be a permanentclosure and people still come
back to another, even, like,when the ugliest things are
said, you know, miracles dohappen. I've I've seen it and
(23:46):
experienced it. And also just tokeep in the back of our minds
too, because I think this isreally important about the
stories we tell ourselves and,you know, when we're saying
things like it's not appreciatedbecause who's saying that except
for you. So it's reallyimportant to see how we're
(24:09):
interpreting things because,like, you know, I really think
there's an energy, perspectiveto our relationships in general
and limiting beliefs couldreally impose on our dynamics.
Leisa (24:23):
Absolutely. John, was there anything else that you
wanted to share with ourlisteners? Oh,
Tamara (24:32):
one more. Just to kind of twist it around a little bit
because one thing we haven'treally ever done, we've talked
about it, but just hasn'thappened is and we've had a
couple, I guess, female male,but what about so I have a
number of friends that are malefriends that I would consider
some of my best friends and ityou know, we've it's been year.
(24:56):
We have quite the history andit's never been a romantic
situation. But what it you know,overall, there's this general
idea that, you know, men andwomen can't be friends. You
know, it's never that just isn'tthe way it is, but I actually
can attest that that can be thecase.
What are your thoughts on that?
John DeOca (25:16):
Oh, I'm in complete agreement with, with you. And,
you know, I hate to castjudgment and perspectives like
this, but I'm I always wonder ifpeople that think that men and
women can't be friends, if,like, we're kind of over
sexualizing the opposite sexthen. And that concerns me in
that case.
Tamara (25:37):
Yeah. That's fair.
Leisa (25:41):
I think it kinda goes back to what we were talking
about originally when, John, youwere talking about the vagueness
of the relationship of afriendship or what a friend is
or, like, you know, we say, oh,you're in the friend zone or
you've been friend zoned or
John DeOca (25:54):
Exactly. Like to
Leisa (25:55):
be friends. So it can get confusing with men and women at
times if initially at the startof the relationship, one person
is thinking, oh, and the otherperson's no. So it can make I
could see where it could gettricky, at the beginning.
John DeOca (26:15):
It does. And I think these are situations that
require even more discussionsand a little more boundaries and
that like this is a platonicfriendship. And that, like, this
is a platonic friendship. And ifthat needs to be reiterated and,
you know, reiterated, that'sfine. And if, you know, the
other person's not respectingthat, then maybe it's just not a
platonic friendship on thatperson's part.
Leisa (26:38):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they would need to say, okay. Well,
I'm okay with that, or that'snot how I feel, so I'm gonna
exit or something like that.
John DeOca (26:46):
But I also do think too friends transition into the
best romantic partners as well.So, you know, because that you
have that foundation. So
Leisa (26:56):
It's tricky.
John DeOca (26:57):
Mhmm. It does.
Leisa (26:58):
Relationships can be messy. Yeah. Yeah. I know. I I
have several male friends whoare incredible and same, Tamara,
that it was never there wasnever a hint of anything besides
platonic love and respect.
So but I will say, I do have alot more women friends than men
(27:20):
friends. Yes. Just what I wasraised with, I guess. John,
anything else that you wannashare with our listeners today?
Our best
John DeOca (27:32):
you. I think just to kinda maybe close out, I think
just, you know, overall, I thinkwe could kinda say, like,
there's no one size fits all,right, when it comes to
friendship. And I think that,you know, both the magnificent
thing and the confusing thing islike because of that, it could
be really puzzling. So, like, ifyou're listening to this and you
(27:56):
might feel like friendship ischallenging to you, like, don't
be discouraged because, like, ofall these variables we spoke
about, it could make itchallenging, but it also, like,
gives the beauty for, like,relationships to be created and
all this variety to pick from.
Leisa (28:15):
Yeah. Yeah. It's a I mean, life changing if you have
a couple of really good friends.That's that's life changing.
Where can people find you?
John DeOca (28:25):
Yeah. So I'm on Instagram at doctordr_johndioca,
and I am my on my website at therelationship prescriber.com.
Those are the best two ways tofind you. So
Leisa (28:38):
the relationship prescriber, because I think you
have, clients that will visityou virtually. Right? That you
can help people with therelationships virtually?
John DeOca (28:48):
Yes. I'm exclusively virtually, actually.
Leisa (28:51):
Oh, exclusively virtually. Okay. Cool. Yeah.
Well, that's even better.
So and you can help people inany state. Right? They don't
have to be in New Jersey.
John DeOca (28:59):
Correct. That is correct.
Leisa (29:00):
Yeah. There you go. Look at that. So if you were looking
for an a therapist, well, youmay have just found your bestie
therapist, whether it's aboutfriendships or relationships or
anything that's going on in yourmind, any limiting beliefs
you're having, you now havesomebody that you can call
besties. Alright.
Well, we'll see you next week onour how I met my BFF. See you
(29:24):
later, everybody.
Hey, bestie. Thanks for listening. If you like this
episode, be sure to hit thatsubscribe button to get notified
of new episodes and check outcool bestie gift ideas at how I
met my bff.com.
Tamara (29:39):
That's right. And also, leave us a review. Those reviews
help us out a lot and are one ofthe best ways to support us.
Leisa (29:45):
Yes. And if you have a fun story about how you met your
BFF, send us an email at info athow I met my bff.com. We would
love to hear about it.
Tamara (29:54):
Definitely. And, hey, maybe we'll have you on our next
episode.
Leisa (29:59):
That would be awesome. Until next time.
Tamara (30:01):
Love you, BFFs.
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