February 14, 2024 • 49 mins
The only thing we know for certain in life is... that we die. So why are we so afraid of it and talking about it?!
In Episode 93 we dive into the taboo topic of death with Death Doula and End of Life Coach, Jill McClennen. Jill shares how we can stop fearing death and start embracing mortality to live with courage, openness, and authenticity.
This episode is not just a conversation about death; it's a guide to living a fuller, richer life.
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About Jill:
Jill McClennen is a certified death doula, a non-medical professional specially trained to provide holistic care for individuals in their final stages of life. She offers comprehensive support, preparation, and deep soul healing to her clients and their families, whether in person or through virtual sessions, as she works as a death doula and end-of-life coach.
Jill is a trauma-sensitive yoga instructor and the host of the "Seeing Death Clearly" podcast.
End of Life Clarity Circle Facebook Group
IG: @endoflifeclarity
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi everyone, and welcome back to how the Wise One
Grows.
Today, we are going to talkabout the only thing that we
know for certain in this life.
It's the only thing that isgoing to happen to every single
one of us and the only thingthat we know for sure to be true
(00:24):
when we enter this life.
And yet it's something we shyaway from and it's taboo to talk
about.
But I think it's time that westop fearing and start talking
about death and to guide usthrough this conversation and
journey, we have a death doulawith us today to help us learn
(00:49):
how to face death and embrace itrather than avoid it, so that
we can live a more fulfillingand authentic life.
And oh my gosh, how could Ialmost forget?
Now is the time to remind youthat this, right now, this very
moment, this is your chance tosupport the podcast.
(01:10):
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(01:33):
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(01:54):
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It's time to thank our newestmember of the dream team, becky.
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podcast.
(02:14):
Ready set go.
Before we dive into theconversation, let's take a
moment to land here togetherwith 3D breaths, so just take a
moment to notice where your bodymakes contact with the earth.
Take a big breath in, fill yourchest and your belly with air,
(02:44):
exhale, open your mouth, let itout Again.
Inhale, chest and belly.
Expand, exhale, let it all go.
One more inhale and exhale andyou can slowly open your eyes as
(03:10):
you return to this space.
I am so excited for our guest tobe here today because we are
going to talk about death,something that doesn't happen
too much, though it has beenhappening more and more on the
pod lately, but today we havewith us Jill MacLennan.
(03:31):
Jill is a certified death doula, a non-medical professional
specifically trained to provideholistic care for individuals in
their final stages of life.
She offers comprehensivesupport, preparation and deep
soul healing to her clients andtheir families, whether in
person or through virtualsessions.
(03:52):
As she works as a death doulaand end of life coach, jill is a
trauma certified yogainstructor as well as the host
of the Seen Death Clearlypodcast.
Jill, thank you so much forbeing here today.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited to talk about it.
I love to talk about death,which I know is kind of shocking
to a lot of people that areused to not talking about death
ever, actually avoiding it asmuch as they can, so I'm happy
to be here.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Yeah, I'm really excited to talk to you about it.
I feel like in the last yearI've been trying to engage in
these conversations about deathmore and more and have found so
much beauty in holding space forit, so I'm very much looking
forward to our conversation.
Do you mind sharing just a bitabout your background and how
(04:46):
you became a death doula, andthen we can kind of dive into
what a death doula is?
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Sure, so my professional background has been
in food service for many, many,many years.
I started when I was in highschool, at like 16, and I'm 45
now and I actually still workpart-time in food service, so
it's been my long-term career.
But I took care of mygrandmother at the end of her
life and during that time Iowned a bakery with my husband.
(05:14):
We had a six-month-old baby andend of life caregiving was not
what I expected, because wedon't see the realities of it on
TV and in movies, and so when Iwas very happy to take on the
role because I wanted to do thatfor my grandmother, I wanted to
(05:35):
be there for her, but I wasjust very confused and very
overwhelmed.
And hospice was amazing.
I loved the hospice nurses thatcame in one of them actually we
still keep in touch and thiswas 12, almost 13 years ago and
they were so kind and socompassionate and really took
(05:57):
time to explain to me that allof these things that seemed
really you know, quote-unquoteweird and odd to me because I
wasn't expecting them, weretotally normal and natural
experiences that people have asthey near the end of life.
And even at that point I reallystarted to think this feels
(06:18):
like work that I want to do.
This feels like really more ofmy calling, like, again, I've
been in food service a long time.
There's things that I loveabout it, but it was never
really like my calling.
It was just kind of, you know,the job that I did and I enjoyed
it and I'm really good at it.
But once I started thinkingabout working with people at the
(06:38):
end of life, I was like, oh,this, this is good, but you know
, I had a bakery and I had ababy and ended up having another
baby and closing the bakery andyou know, life just kind of
moved on.
And then, in 2019, I heard of adeath doula and as soon as I
heard it, I was like, oh, that'swhat I want to do, because I
(07:00):
didn't really want to go back toschool to be a nurse it just
you know and I saw a lot of whatthey did for my grandmother and
I appreciate that there'speople that do these things, but
it just wasn't really what Iwanted.
And so once I heard about adeath doula, I was like, oh,
this is it, this is what I wantto do, which is the spiritual
support, the emotional support,helping people work through
(07:23):
their fears and their anxietiesand helping families understand,
educating families, preparingpeople for the realities of what
death and dying is going tolook like.
And I started, you know, reallygetting a little anxious
because at that point I wasabout 40 and I was like, oh man,
am I really going to completelyswitch careers?
(07:44):
But there's actually, you know,a lot of my food service
background comes in handy whenI'm doing this work, because I'm
very good at service, I'm verygood at helping people, and so I
just kind of have brought allof those skills over into my
death doula work.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
So is.
Is that the primary way a deathdoula differs from more
traditional end of life carelike a nurse, because it focuses
on the more spiritual andemotional elements of death, or
do you mind diving into that abit more?
Speaker 3 (08:16):
That's, definitely a lot of it that, if anybody's
heard of a birth doula, right,we're very similar in the role
that there's no medical carethat is provided by doulas.
We're really there to supportpeople through really just big
transitions in the natural humanexistence, right, not everybody
(08:38):
has a baby, but everybody isgoing to die.
Whether we want to admit thator not, we will all die.
We just don't know when anddeath.
Doulas really can be there tosupport you, even if you're not
actively nearing death.
(08:59):
That's one of the things thatI've been trying to talk to a
lot of people about.
Is that, because so many of usare so afraid of even thinking
about end of life, what we wouldwant at the end of life, we're
not prepared.
And even just locally last week, one of our neighbors, the 48
year old husband, had a heartattack and died, left behind two
(09:20):
kids and a wife Same, I mean,could have been me and my
husband.
Kids are the same age, he evenhas the same name as my husband
like and we just don't know.
And I know it's hard for peopleto think about that.
But not thinking about it isn'tgoing to prevent that from
happening Any more than thinkingabout it is going to make it
(09:44):
happen.
But I want people to feelprepared as best as we can for
the inevitable happening at anypoint.
And so, whether that's you know,talking about what we want at
the end of life, making surethat our legal paperwork is in
order, working through our fearsand our anxieties, you know,
(10:05):
what are we most afraid of aboutdeath?
Because it kind of falls into afew categories.
People are either afraid of thesuffering that they might
experience at the end of lifeWell, there's a lot of things we
could do for that, to make surethat people are comfortable.
People are afraid of what comesafter because we don't know.
Well, I mean, I can't tell youthat for sure, none of us know
(10:26):
for sure but we can haveconversations about it and
really work through some of thefears and the anxiety so that,
no matter what stage in lifeyou're at and that's why I'll
sometimes now say end of lifecoach, more than I even say
death rule, because I had a lotof people say to me you sound
like you're a life coach and Iwas like, I guess, kind of, I'm
(10:48):
just at the end of life, butagain it's you know, it's
important for all of us to thinkthrough these things, no matter
where we're at.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Yeah, I think you bring up a lot of interesting
points and I want to first leaninto like death is the only
thing we know for certain aboutlife.
That's the only thing we knowto be true when we come into
this earth is that we will leaveit and we will die.
Yet there's so much resistancearound it, and earlier you
(11:21):
mentioned something about likethinking about death doesn't
make it like any more prominent.
I think that when we canacknowledge that reality of
death, that is a great act ofsurrender and acceptance.
And I've said this equation onthe podcast before and I'll say
it again the question issuffering equals pain times,
(11:42):
resistance.
In life, pain is inevitable andsuffering is optional, and I
think we add a lot of extrasuffering around death because
we resist it.
Like it's a pain unit.
That's a part of life that'sgoing to happen.
There can also be some greatbeauty to it, but by resisting
it we suffer so much more,whether it's our own death or
(12:06):
the grief of someone we've lost.
So I think it's it's reallygreat work that you're doing and
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As like it's so important forus to talk about death, which we
(13:12):
so often resist and try awayfrom.
And I guess I want to startwith like one like why are we
afraid to talk about death?
But even a layer deeper is likewhy do you think we're so
afraid of death If that's theonly thing we know?
Speaker 3 (13:28):
Hmm, well, I think they're actually pretty tied
together.
We don't talk about it becausewe're so afraid of it.
We're so afraid of it because wedon't talk about it.
And so it became this reallykind of taboo subject that even
when we've tried to talk aboutit with loved ones, think even
(13:50):
children when they ask questions, what do we do?
We lie to children.
You know, like the goldfishdied, oh, we're just going to go
out and buy him a new one.
You know, like the dog dies,we're going to come up with all
these like stories rather thanhaving a conversation with
children.
And so by the time that weactually have to face death even
(14:11):
whether it's our own, say youknow, we get a terminal
diagnosis and it's like death islike in our face, of like
you're going to die right, orthat happens to a loved one or,
god forbid, somebody you knowdie suddenly again it happens
all the time.
We're so overwhelmed, becausewe've avoided it for so long,
(14:33):
that it really ends up beingalmost like a traumatic
experience where we don't knowhow to process everything that's
coming up.
Things get said between familymembers that are just downright
cruel.
Sometimes it ends up being anexperience that then we don't
(14:55):
want to ever face it, ever again.
So even the thought of it, youknow like even for my family.
You know, we went through anexperience around a grandmother
dying that it just was not good.
You know, people are still notspeaking in my family because of
it, and so now we all have thatexperience as part of our
memory of like death.
(15:15):
Well, it's not really death, itwas other stuff that was coming
up within the family that justgot triggered by the fact that
my grandmother was dying.
It wasn't her death that was sotraumatic, it was all the other
stuff that happened.
And so now all of us are goinginto our next experiences with
(15:35):
that old pain and that fear.
And the more that we don't talkthrough what happened.
You know, like it's not likeany of us are talking about it.
It's not like we sit down andwe have a conversation like hey,
by the way, those things thatwere said, I'm really sorry, I
didn't really mean it, we'rejust acting like none of it
happened or we're just nottalking to each other, and so it
just leads to us holding all ofthat inside and then the next
(15:59):
time we have to face the deathit's going to come up and so we
really need to talk about it.
The more it's like you know,what are they?
You got to feel the heal right,like it really is true that we
need to feel the emotions arounddeath and dying and grief and
all the unprocessed stuff thatwe're holding on to, and so the
(16:19):
part of doing that is going tobe having conversations.
That might be a littledifficult to start with, but the
more that you do it, the easierit gets.
But it can be difficult becausesometimes you want to have the
conversation with a loved one.
I mean, I've even talked topeople that work in hospice and
they'll say my spouse won't talkto me about what they want at
the end of life, and so the timeI try to, they change the
(16:41):
subject, they shut it down, theystart making jokes and this is
what I do for a living and theystill won't talk to me.
So, like I try to gentlyencourage people to have the
conversations, to start theconversations, and that's even
one of the things that I do as adeath ruler is I can just help
(17:03):
mediate conversations betweenpeople, help get the
conversation started, and I canjust get so that it stays on
track.
And it's not that you know,siblings are fighting with each
other over something that reallyhas nothing to do with it, but
we really do need to talk aboutit, and the more that we talk
(17:24):
about it, the less uncomfortableit will get.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Yeah, it's just like any other muscle you got to use
it to start to strengthen it andfor it to grow.
And as you were talking, Istarted to have the thought to
is, I think a part of whythere's so much fear around
death and conversations arounddeath is in part because it's
the only thing we can't provewhat happens after, like there
(17:51):
are so many beliefs and you canhold on to yours and the way
that supports you and that'sgreat, and there's no like
concrete scientific data.
That's like, ah, when X happens,why curse?
It's like it's the unknown andthat, I think, is something we
often aren't encouraged to learnhow to be with in this life is
(18:13):
the unknown, even though life isunknown all the time.
And I think that can makehaving conversations around
death really challenging,because there's not quite
language for what we don't know.
We can talk about this likeethereal sense of uncertainty
and all these things, but atsome point there aren't ever
(18:34):
words that will convey whatdeath is.
So I think that can almostcripple the conversation.
When you work with someone whois dying and they're having big
emotions, how do you help themprocess those emotions and that
(18:59):
reality, that in imminent ofdeath?
Speaker 3 (19:05):
I try to ask a lot of questions and then just listen
a lot.
I actually even sat once with awoman that was in the hospital.
It's the only time I ever sawher.
I sat with her for like twohours, I think, and I maybe said
I don't know five or six thingsin the two hours, and by the
(19:27):
time that we were done she saidoh, you are so wise, you are so
wonder.
Like she was just praising mefor how amazing I was.
I'm thinking I didn't really doanything, I didn't really even
say anything, but I just let hertalk and the conversation tends
to flow where they'll talkabout fears, they'll talk about
(19:50):
anxieties, they'll talk aboutwhat they think maybe is coming
for them after death.
Because even though we think weknow what we believe, when
we're actually facing death it'spretty surprising how many
people will actually changetheir beliefs and a lot of times
go back to the religiousbeliefs that they had at
childhood, and so there's a lotof processing that's going on
(20:13):
there and then they'll betalking about it and then all of
a sudden they'll go off in atangent and like she started
talking about Christmas cookies.
It was like so we kind of goall over the place.
But I think that's there andthat's the natural way to talk
about something that's a littleuncomfortable.
It's like we'll talk about theuncomfortable for a little bit
and then we'll go somewherethat's more comfortable and then
(20:34):
we'll swing back, and so my jobis usually just to kind of keep
asking and that's really a lotof it is just listening to
people.
I'm not there to tell them whatto believe.
I'm not there to tell them thatit's going to be okay, Because
(20:54):
so many times we want to do thatLike no, you're going to be
fine, Everything's going to befine.
I mean, yeah, it's going to befine.
I mean, you're going to die?
I mean it's it is what it is.
But I just want to be able to berealistic with somebody,
because they'll even sometimesask you know, like well, how,
(21:15):
how much longer do you thinkit'll be?
Like nobody really knows, even adoctor can't tell you how much
longer, and some people willhang on for a really long time
at the end, for whatever reason.
I mean, nobody knows for sure.
There's a lot of theories butnobody knows for sure, and so
when I'm with people that arenearing the end of life, it's
(21:40):
also interesting too, becausesometimes people get themselves
to a place where they're readyand then it's not happening.
And then they're like well, nowI just want it to like happen,
because now I'm prepared, I'mready, and it feels like it's
just not just dragging on andlike, well, it'll happen in its
(22:01):
own time.
I mean, that's the thing thebody knows what to do.
You know, we really view deathas this, like medical emergency,
and it's really not.
The body will know what to doon its own.
And sometimes I'll talk topeople and they'll say well, you
know, they'll die when it'sGod's will, and I'm like, yes,
(22:25):
but also they'll die when wetake off their breathing
machines and their IVs and likeso it's not really God's will
when we have them hooked up toall of this machinery that has
kept them alive.
And that's where it gets to bea really tricky place working
(22:46):
with people at the end of life,Because you know, I am there to
support people no matter what,even if what they believe is not
what I believe as far as likereligious beliefs or even what
they want at the end of life.
But it's really hard becausenow we can keep a body alive for
a really long time and thatjust puts a lot of people in a
(23:10):
place where again, it makes theexperience more traumatizing for
family members.
And then we have to makedecisions where, you know, in
the past that wasn't the case.
I mean, people would dienaturally.
And now we don't really do that.
And that's why even you know,most people have probably heard
(23:32):
of something called a DNR, a donot resuscitate.
There's a lot of people in endof life care that are now trying
to change the language to allownatural death.
Because it's not that we'resaying don't resuscitate
somebody, Like if I was tocollapse right now at 45 and
healthy, like yes, then youwould be resuscitating me.
(23:53):
But if somebody is, you know,in their 80s or if they're just
at the end of a long terminalillness, you're allowing them to
die naturally, and that's whatmost people would want if you
were to actually talk to them.
But it doesn't always happen.
We end up with these treatmentsand these, you know, machines
and all these things.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Yeah, I think sometimes we fight death so much
, we try to prolong life so muchwhen sometimes it's time for
death.
I even had a friend who had,you know, terminal cancer and
they moved to Washington stateso that he could have the choice
to, you know, to take care ofthat choice when it was time, to
(24:37):
not suffer anymoreunnecessarily.
If you know what's going tohappen and if you're ready for
it, we don't need to turn tothese endless extremes to stay
alive, because death is, in myexperience, much harder for the
living, you know, I think, forthe person who's going through
(24:57):
that.
Once you die, I like to holdthe belief that there's
something freeing, somethingbeautiful that happens and then
it's sad for us here on earthbecause you're not physically
with us in your body, but alsoyour spirit is, and there is a
window to me that it can open upto making life more alive when
(25:23):
someone in your life dies.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
Yeah, and I think for me a lot of it, when I think
about the sadness that we haveafter somebody dies.
A lot of times it's, yes, wemiss them, you know, we miss
being with them physically, buta lot of it is the regrets and
the shame and the guilt.
And you know, anytime, becausenow I kind of, because I think
(25:51):
about death so much, because Italk about it so much, I kind of
do this little like activity inmy head where you know, for
example, yesterday I went to thepark with my family and my kids
were like bickering a littlebit about I don't know whatever
it was.
I don't know whatever they werebickering about.
And in the past I would havegotten very frustrated.
(26:12):
Part of me would have shut down.
I would have wanted to justlike look at something on my
phone to distract myself.
I would have convinced myself Ihad something really important
to do, reading an email orwhatever, right.
And now I just watch it and Ithink, what if you were dead and
you were a ghost?
(26:32):
Would you want to be looking atyour phone or would you be
taking every single moment tolook at every little hair on
your child's head?
What?
Would you be?
doing and so it allows me tojust be so much more present
because I feel like, if Godforbid, if one of my children
(26:53):
were to die, I would giveanything to have them back and
fighting with each other.
I wouldn't be looking at myphone if I had a minute to even
go back in time and be with them.
So there's so much, even now,like I'm still processing some
shame and some guilt and regretsof like when they were little,
when I was like overwhelmed andI was exhausted and I would just
(27:16):
check out and I would distractmyself and I would self-medicate
with like drinking or marijuanaor just leaving the house
because I just couldn't do.
I still have some regrets andshame about that, but now I'm so
much more present every momentthat I have with them.
So not that it would be easyfor me if my husband or my
(27:38):
children were to die, but I knowthat I wouldn't have that same
feeling of how I wish I wouldhave, you know, shown up more.
I wish I would have been heremore, I wish I would have taken
the time to really fully bepresent with them.
And part of getting to thatunderstanding was because I have
(27:59):
learned so much about theregrets and the shame and all
the things that people have whensomebody dies or when they're
dying themselves, and it haschanged my life.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Yeah, I think that death is what makes life worth
living.
You know, the impermanence oflife is what makes it beautiful,
and when a death happens itopens our eyes to that.
We stop taking it for grantedand we can start living life
more fully.
You see the magic in it again,and that's a hard thing, but
(28:35):
it's a gift.
I think that's the death is thegreatest gift of life.
Because of that, yeah, so Iappreciate you sharing that and
I think especially what you'resaying, those moments of life
that it's so tempting becauselife is pain, like pain is a
part of life.
It's so tempting to want tonumb that, to resist it, to run
(28:57):
away from it, but that's thewholeness right there, that's
the, that's the part of it too.
So can we fully be here for ourlived experience, because this
is it and it's not gonna lastforever for us or for anyone
else.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
Yeah, and learning to go with the flow in life has
definitely helped me too, where,you know, there is always going
to be pain in life but, likeyou said, it doesn't have to
mean that I need to sufferterribly because of the pain.
And so Now I just got to thisplace where, you know, between
(29:35):
my meditation practice that I'vehad for a long time but now it
seems to have like reallystarted to sink in this idea of
just not being attached to anyof it, the good or the bad, and
Just kind of being like it justis what it is for this moment.
It is what it is.
It's not gonna be forever and99% of the time, if I was to
(30:00):
stop and get really Quiet withinme and look at whatever's
happening, it's fine, like it'sa, it's a perfect moment.
You know, even moments that aredifficult, even moments that
are painful, if I could reallyjust get some clarity around it,
(30:21):
overall it's fine.
I'm here, my children arehealthy, you know, I have a roof
over my head, I have food, ormaybe I don't have extra money,
you know, maybe I don't have allthese things.
You know, my business isn'tthriving, like all the things
that Part of my brain wants tokeep telling me is wrong with
everything in my life.
(30:42):
If I could really just shut thebrain up just even a little bit
and look around Like you knowwhat, my life is perfect.
It's perfect the way that it is, because the things that matter
most I have, and so the otherstuff doesn't really matter.
But the brain and social mediaand Society just plants all this
(31:08):
like garbage in our heads aboutwhat's important in life, and
so sometimes, when days are bad,I'm like alright, just get
really clear on what is reallyGoing fine.
Yeah, it usually does help, andnow I have less bad days.
I just don't react the same wayto situations like I used to.
I just react in a much calmerway when I'm like oh, whatever
(31:34):
it is so it is.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
This is happening right now, and yeah we, you can
acknowledge, because you knowthat life is temporary.
You know that the wide range ofemotions the good days, the bad
days are temporary too.
When you stop resisting death,you can stop resisting life and
the fullness of that experience.
Earlier we were talking abouthow a fear of death and
(31:59):
conversations around death arereally prominent for most people
, and I believe you've talkedbefore about how most of our
fears actually trace back to afear of death, even if we aren't
like conscious of it.
Do you mind sharing maybe, anexample of that and leaning into
(32:20):
, like, how can we start to Lookat our fears and notice if
they're rooted in a fear ofdeath and how do we work with
that?
Speaker 3 (32:29):
Yeah, it's really one of my favorite topics to think
about and to really kind of talkabout, because every time I
think of somebody's, you know,fears and phobias, and Really
any fear that we have, when Ireally dig into it deeper and
(32:51):
deeper, the root of it is alwaysthe fear of death, it on.
Let me think about any phobia,right, whether it's fear of
heights, fear of spiders, fearof, you know, being around
groups of people, you know, fearof the ocean, whatever it is,
it's because we're afraid we'regonna die.
And if we could get reallyclear on that idea first off, of
(33:16):
like, well, why are we afraidof those things?
I mean, I don't know.
Again, you know, depending onhow you know, down the rabbit
hole you want to go with things,some of it, I sometimes do
think if there is such a thingas a past life, maybe it is a
past life.
You know, like I've had a fearof Deep water since I was a
(33:38):
child, but yet I'm an excellentswimmer.
I was a lifeguard for manyyears, but there's still part of
me that when I'm like on a boatand we're in deep water, like I
just I feel it, I'm like, nope,I don't want to be here.
I don't like this, and that waswhen I first started hearing
about past lives, because I wastelling somebody that and
they're like maybe you drownedin a past life and I was like,
(33:59):
um, it's possible, I don't know,but either way again, it's
because I died that way, likeit's, it's the fear of death.
And so then I started thinkingeven about me.
I don't really have many fearsand phobias anymore, but I am
slightly Anisocial in the senseof, like we live in a small
(34:19):
community, I kind of stick tomyself.
I don't really like beingaround a lot of people because I
feel like people have alwayskind of thought I was a little
weird, which I am a little weirdand I'm okay with that Exactly.
I think weird is good too, butwhen you're in groups of small
town people, sometimes the weirdis not good.
(34:41):
And so then again I started tothink about it and I'm like well
, why do I, why do I worry aboutit?
Well, because when you're theweird woman in town, history
will prove that they often gotkilled.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
Yeah, you're the witch, you're the oh, the,
whatever, the whore.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
Yeah, oh, totally.
And Even you know that I startedthinking About the idea of like
the mother wound and the sisterwound.
And you know like I don't tendto have a lot of female friends
and again, it's partiallybecause of just like bad
experiences in the past where Igot really close with a woman
and then the relationships endedup like falling apart.
(35:24):
And then it usually became itfell apart because it got to a
point where we were just likeboth trying to like be the one
in charge, essentially, and thenI was like well, why is that?
And I was like well, that'sbecause society tells us that
you have to be the woman incharge, because you know you
(35:47):
have to have the attention ofthe man.
You need to be the one to getthat.
Like it really again went backto this idea of like, well, if
I'm not in charge, that meansI'm going to be the one that
gets pushed out, which means I'mgoing to be the one that's got
to like, you know, die by myselfon the streets.
You know, like it just tracesback to survival.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
We see connection with humans.
We seek belonging because ofthese core survival needs, even
people pleasing tendencies.
I think we talked about that inepisode 37 of how that root is
a root.
It's a root fear of survival,of needing to belong, to have
our needs met and be taken careof.
So I think you're really spoton with all of our fears.
(36:32):
We can trace back to this fearof death.
Then, when we stop fearingdeath, we stop fearing life.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
Yeah, it's true, because so many times I have
stopped myself from going outand engaging with people because
I just didn't want to feeluncomfortable.
And you know now that I gotreally clear about a lot of it,
I'm like, honestly, nobody'sgoing to kill me.
Like, even if somebodythreatens me, like it's not,
(37:05):
it's not likely to happen.
Could it happen, Of course.
Is it likely to happen?
No, and so what's the worstthat happens?
They think I'm weird, theydon't want to talk to me.
Okay, fine.
And so now I'm starting to getlike more involved with things
and I'm finding that again I'mliving life better where my
(37:26):
daughter's on a softball team.
She's nine, right, so it's likelittle kids.
They're not very good, but it'sadorable, right.
And so like you go to the gamesand it is just so like wholesome
, like small town wholesome.
But again, in the past I wouldhave just been a little bit
uncomfortable, I wouldn't havewanted to be there.
(37:46):
There would have always beenpart of me that was just like
thinking about other things,trying to be somewhere else.
It just I wouldn't have beenable to relax and feel good.
And I noticed a couple weeks agoat one of her softball games, I
was just like watching theseother little kids play and I was
like listening to the noisesand watching the sun come, like
over these trees, and the wholething was just so amazing and I
(38:10):
was so present.
I was so just in that momentand it was beautiful and I was
like, wow, this is really great,like this is what I want, this
is how I want to live my lifeall the time.
And so, working with that ideaof like why am I so afraid to be
around groups of people?
(38:31):
Again, they're not going tokill me and if they do, they're
not going to get away with it.
So it's fine, it'll be fine,but I just I really was so happy
to be able to feel thatexperience the way that I felt
it, because that is the way Iwant to live my life.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
In my experience, when there is proximity to death
whether it like I have friendswho've had near death
experiences or a loved one diesthere is one side of the coin.
That's the beauty of like wow,like you see life so differently
, you can live life much morefully.
(39:12):
It's almost like there's awindow of that and the window
like kind of goes away and it'seasy to fall back into old
patterns.
But then there's also a side ofthe coin where it makes living
life the same way hard.
It makes like connecting withpeople, I think, a little bit
harder because you see whatmatters and you see a way of
(39:33):
living so differently.
I would be curious about, assomeone who works in death like
all the time, how do you holdthe beauty of the gifts it gives
you and still allow yourself tolive fully in this life and
connect with others in anauthentic way?
Speaker 3 (39:57):
I think that I've always been.
That's part of why I didn'tconnect with people was because
there was always a part of methat didn't want to gossip.
I didn't want to chit chat, Ididn't want to talk about sports
and, you know, in politics eventhough I am engaged in politics
there was just so much of whatwas going on with other humans
(40:22):
that I was like, look y'all like, this is just not the important
stuff, let's talk about theimportant stuff.
And so I've always had a hardtime really connecting with
other people.
But now, I don't know, it hasgotten easier, and I think
(40:42):
partially because in the pastthere was always a little part
of me that was like lookingforward to dying just because I
wanted this experience to bedone.
I wasn't like, oh, I'm going tokill myself, but it was more
like like I don't know if ithappened tomorrow, I would be
okay with that, because there'snot really much here that is
(41:04):
kind of worth experiencing.
And you know, and I don't likerealizing that, that's the way I
used to feel, but it was.
And now I can connect withpeople and even though sometimes
it's frustrating, because Istill want the same thing where
(41:24):
I'm like, I want to have thesedifferent conversations, like I
don't want to chit chat, I don'twant to be at a party listening
to you talk about your kidssoccer team or whatever.
But then that's when I willkind of do that practice again
of where I almost imagine whatit would be like if I wasn't in
this physical body and I wasexperiencing this from a
(41:48):
different place, or if it wasjust a memory, if I was on my
deathbed and I was looking backat this softball game or this
party or this conversation thatI didn't really want to be in
because it was not interestingto me, right.
And I think that the thingsthat I used to feel in the past,
now I'm more.
It's almost like I can see lifemore as just like a game, as
(42:15):
like a movie that I'm just kindof participating in and it just
makes it much more pleasurablesometimes to think of it that
way of.
You know, even if our soul doesgo on right, like if I die and
this physical body is gone, butthe Jill right, the me that
makes me Jill, goes on.
(42:37):
It'll never be this experienceagain.
I'll never have this body, I'llnever be able to touch my
child's face again, I'll neverbe able to smell the smells that
I smell and taste the thingsthat I taste and like this will
never be here again and that'sokay.
I'm not going to attach myselfto this idea and want to grasp
(42:59):
it and hold on to it, but I'mgoing to appreciate it and so it
actually has really made it sothat, even though there is times
when I still really wish like Iwould love if everybody would
talk to me about death and Ithink that's the thing now too
is that you know, when I saywhat I do, when people you know
ask I got, what are you doing?
I'm like, oh, I'm a death rule.
I work with people at the endof life.
(43:19):
Either people do want to talkto me about it and they want to
tell me the stories of whentheir loved one died or you know
, whatever it is, or they getreally freaked out and they want
to walk away, and so that I'mlike, okay, sure, let's talk
about death, and if you reallydon't want to talk to me, that's
okay too, but it has.
It has changed me deeply.
(43:42):
Honestly, it has.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
Yeah, I think there's so much to the impermanence of
life that's kind of been thethread throughout this
conversation of like that we cansavor the sweetness of it
because it's impermanent in thehighs and lows, the good days,
the bad days.
They're all fleeting, just likethis life is, and I'm so glad
(44:08):
that you are holding space forso many people to be with death
in their last days and toprepare for death and have more
conversations about it and, bydoing so, helping us make life
more alive.
Do you mind sharing for anyonelistening what would be like one
bit of advice you would givelisteners to stop fearing their
(44:37):
death and to feel more alivetoday?
Speaker 3 (44:43):
I think probably the best piece of advice you know
and I want to say quote-unquoteadvice, because it's not really
that there's any advice to helpanybody be less afraid of death,
but just don't be afraid tolook at it and to think about it
(45:07):
and to, you know, have theconversations and to learn more
about it and when it does startto feel uncomfortable, ask
yourself why, what is it that ismaking you feel uncomfortable,
and then, if you can kind of getto even a little bit of that
why it'll help you just workthrough it and be able to
(45:32):
continue down this path ofreally just creating a healthier
relationship with death anddying and just naturally you
will start to live your lifedifferently.
It's not a conscious decision,it will just happen naturally
the more comfortable you getwith death.
Speaker 1 (45:50):
Yeah, yeah, and maybe a good place to start is if
listening to this episode hasbeen helpful for you.
A way you can open the door toa conversation is like share
this episode with someone inyour life and, you know, give
them a few days and then try tostart talking about it together.
Speaker 3 (46:08):
Open that door, I also have a Facebook group too,
where I post questions every,almost every day.
I sometimes don't on theweekends and they're not always
very specific about death, butthey're just questions to get
people thinking and I've had alot of comments.
(46:28):
People will message me or I'llrun into somebody out in public
that I don't even know is in mygroup and they'll say your
conversation or your questionshave started conversations
between me and my family,because I'll tell them the
question and then we starttalking about it.
And so you know I've really.
That's why I do the group.
It's not like I'm in thereselling, it really is just I
(46:50):
want people to start thinkingabout things and then starting
the conversation.
So people are always welcome tojoin my group just to get
little tastes of some things youcan think about.
Speaker 1 (47:02):
Yeah, and I'll be sure to get the link to that
group from you and I'll have itin the show notes for anyone who
wants to join and for peoplelistening.
What are other ways we cansupport you and your work?
Speaker 3 (47:15):
I do have a podcast seeing death clearly and I try
to do conversations with youknow, quote unquote normal
people like people that don'twork in end of life but just
want to talk about death andtheir experiences.
but then I do actually talk topeople that have written books,
you know all kinds ofprofessionals and the end of
(47:36):
life area so that again we couldjust get used to hearing
conversations about death anddying.
And then you know I work withclients you know, in person or
virtual, at any stage of life towork through fears and
anxieties, to have aconversation and get clear on
what you would want for your endof life care at any time, and I
(48:00):
work with end of lifecaregivers.
So just kind of you know, ifthere's anybody out there that
needs any type of support aroundanything having to do with end
of life, email me and I do, youknow, a complimentary 30 minute
session to kind of talk and seewhat your needs are and see if I
would be able to be helpful.
Awesome.
Speaker 1 (48:21):
And I'll make sure that I have all your info in the
show notes for people toconnect with you.
Perfect Thank you.
Yeah, jill, thank you so muchfor having this really important
conversation with us today andI appreciate you, the work that
you do, and I hope that we cankeep talking about death,
perfect Thank you for having me.
I really enjoyed it.
(48:44):
This is your invitation tosupport this podcast and this
offering into the world byjoining the dream team today.
You can think of it as amonthly coffee date for these
weekly conversations andmeditations.
Click the link in the shownotes to join and support this
offering.
And you can also support thispodcast by following on your
(49:07):
favorite streaming platform,leaving a review.
I love reading your words andsharing an episode you love with
a friend and on social media.
Hi everyone, and welcome back to how the Wise One
Grows.
Today, we are going to talkabout the only thing that we
know for certain in this life.
It's the only thing that isgoing to happen to every single
one of us and the only thingthat we know for sure to be true
(00:24):
when we enter this life.
And yet it's something we shyaway from and it's taboo to talk
about.
But I think it's time that westop fearing and start talking
about death and to guide usthrough this conversation and
journey, we have a death doulawith us today to help us learn
(00:49):
how to face death and embrace itrather than avoid it, so that
we can live a more fulfillingand authentic life.
And oh my gosh, how could Ialmost forget?
Now is the time to remind youthat this, right now, this very
moment, this is your chance tosupport the podcast.
(01:10):
So much love and work goes intoputting each and every one of
these episodes out, and none ofit's possible without your
support.
So if this podcast has meantsomething to you, you can
support it by joining the dreamteam for as little as three
dollars a month.
You can think of it as amonthly coffee date for these
weekly conversations andmeditations.
(01:33):
Click the link in the shownotes to join and support this
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And you can also support thispodcast by following on your
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I love reading your words andsharing an episode you love with
a friend and on social media,and if you join the dream team,
(01:54):
you get a super special momentlike this.
It's time to thank our newestmember of the dream team, becky.
Becky, you rule, you are socool and you make dreams come
true, and you listener can becool like Becky by clicking the
link in the show notes to jointhe dream team and support the
podcast.
(02:14):
Ready set go.
Before we dive into theconversation, let's take a
moment to land here togetherwith 3D breaths, so just take a
moment to notice where your bodymakes contact with the earth.
Take a big breath in, fill yourchest and your belly with air,
(02:44):
exhale, open your mouth, let itout Again.
Inhale, chest and belly.
Expand, exhale, let it all go.
One more inhale and exhale andyou can slowly open your eyes as
(03:10):
you return to this space.
I am so excited for our guest tobe here today because we are
going to talk about death,something that doesn't happen
too much, though it has beenhappening more and more on the
pod lately, but today we havewith us Jill MacLennan.
(03:31):
Jill is a certified death doula, a non-medical professional
specifically trained to provideholistic care for individuals in
their final stages of life.
She offers comprehensivesupport, preparation and deep
soul healing to her clients andtheir families, whether in
person or through virtualsessions.
(03:52):
As she works as a death doulaand end of life coach, jill is a
trauma certified yogainstructor as well as the host
of the Seen Death Clearlypodcast.
Jill, thank you so much forbeing here today.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited to talk about it.
I love to talk about death,which I know is kind of shocking
to a lot of people that areused to not talking about death
ever, actually avoiding it asmuch as they can, so I'm happy
to be here.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Yeah, I'm really excited to talk to you about it.
I feel like in the last yearI've been trying to engage in
these conversations about deathmore and more and have found so
much beauty in holding space forit, so I'm very much looking
forward to our conversation.
Do you mind sharing just a bitabout your background and how
(04:46):
you became a death doula, andthen we can kind of dive into
what a death doula is?
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Sure, so my professional background has been
in food service for many, many,many years.
I started when I was in highschool, at like 16, and I'm 45
now and I actually still workpart-time in food service, so
it's been my long-term career.
But I took care of mygrandmother at the end of her
life and during that time Iowned a bakery with my husband.
(05:14):
We had a six-month-old baby andend of life caregiving was not
what I expected, because wedon't see the realities of it on
TV and in movies, and so when Iwas very happy to take on the
role because I wanted to do thatfor my grandmother, I wanted to
(05:35):
be there for her, but I wasjust very confused and very
overwhelmed.
And hospice was amazing.
I loved the hospice nurses thatcame in one of them actually we
still keep in touch and thiswas 12, almost 13 years ago and
they were so kind and socompassionate and really took
(05:57):
time to explain to me that allof these things that seemed
really you know, quote-unquoteweird and odd to me because I
wasn't expecting them, weretotally normal and natural
experiences that people have asthey near the end of life.
And even at that point I reallystarted to think this feels
(06:18):
like work that I want to do.
This feels like really more ofmy calling, like, again, I've
been in food service a long time.
There's things that I loveabout it, but it was never
really like my calling.
It was just kind of, you know,the job that I did and I enjoyed
it and I'm really good at it.
But once I started thinkingabout working with people at the
(06:38):
end of life, I was like, oh,this, this is good, but you know
, I had a bakery and I had ababy and ended up having another
baby and closing the bakery andyou know, life just kind of
moved on.
And then, in 2019, I heard of adeath doula and as soon as I
heard it, I was like, oh, that'swhat I want to do, because I
(07:00):
didn't really want to go back toschool to be a nurse it just
you know and I saw a lot of whatthey did for my grandmother and
I appreciate that there'speople that do these things, but
it just wasn't really what Iwanted.
And so once I heard about adeath doula, I was like, oh,
this is it, this is what I wantto do, which is the spiritual
support, the emotional support,helping people work through
(07:23):
their fears and their anxietiesand helping families understand,
educating families, preparingpeople for the realities of what
death and dying is going tolook like.
And I started, you know, reallygetting a little anxious
because at that point I wasabout 40 and I was like, oh man,
am I really going to completelyswitch careers?
(07:44):
But there's actually, you know,a lot of my food service
background comes in handy whenI'm doing this work, because I'm
very good at service, I'm verygood at helping people, and so I
just kind of have brought allof those skills over into my
death doula work.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
So is.
Is that the primary way a deathdoula differs from more
traditional end of life carelike a nurse, because it focuses
on the more spiritual andemotional elements of death, or
do you mind diving into that abit more?
Speaker 3 (08:16):
That's, definitely a lot of it that, if anybody's
heard of a birth doula, right,we're very similar in the role
that there's no medical carethat is provided by doulas.
We're really there to supportpeople through really just big
transitions in the natural humanexistence, right, not everybody
(08:38):
has a baby, but everybody isgoing to die.
Whether we want to admit thator not, we will all die.
We just don't know when anddeath.
Doulas really can be there tosupport you, even if you're not
actively nearing death.
(08:59):
That's one of the things thatI've been trying to talk to a
lot of people about.
Is that, because so many of usare so afraid of even thinking
about end of life, what we wouldwant at the end of life, we're
not prepared.
And even just locally last week, one of our neighbors, the 48
year old husband, had a heartattack and died, left behind two
(09:20):
kids and a wife Same, I mean,could have been me and my
husband.
Kids are the same age, he evenhas the same name as my husband
like and we just don't know.
And I know it's hard for peopleto think about that.
But not thinking about it isn'tgoing to prevent that from
happening Any more than thinkingabout it is going to make it
(09:44):
happen.
But I want people to feelprepared as best as we can for
the inevitable happening at anypoint.
And so, whether that's you know,talking about what we want at
the end of life, making surethat our legal paperwork is in
order, working through our fearsand our anxieties, you know,
(10:05):
what are we most afraid of aboutdeath?
Because it kind of falls into afew categories.
People are either afraid of thesuffering that they might
experience at the end of lifeWell, there's a lot of things we
could do for that, to make surethat people are comfortable.
People are afraid of what comesafter because we don't know.
Well, I mean, I can't tell youthat for sure, none of us know
(10:26):
for sure but we can haveconversations about it and
really work through some of thefears and the anxiety so that,
no matter what stage in lifeyou're at and that's why I'll
sometimes now say end of lifecoach, more than I even say
death rule, because I had a lotof people say to me you sound
like you're a life coach and Iwas like, I guess, kind of, I'm
(10:48):
just at the end of life, butagain it's you know, it's
important for all of us to thinkthrough these things, no matter
where we're at.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Yeah, I think you bring up a lot of interesting
points and I want to first leaninto like death is the only
thing we know for certain aboutlife.
That's the only thing we knowto be true when we come into
this earth is that we will leaveit and we will die.
Yet there's so much resistancearound it, and earlier you
(11:21):
mentioned something about likethinking about death doesn't
make it like any more prominent.
I think that when we canacknowledge that reality of
death, that is a great act ofsurrender and acceptance.
And I've said this equation onthe podcast before and I'll say
it again the question issuffering equals pain times,
(11:42):
resistance.
In life, pain is inevitable andsuffering is optional, and I
think we add a lot of extrasuffering around death because
we resist it.
Like it's a pain unit.
That's a part of life that'sgoing to happen.
There can also be some greatbeauty to it, but by resisting
it we suffer so much more,whether it's our own death or
(12:06):
the grief of someone we've lost.
So I think it's it's reallygreat work that you're doing and
important to shed a light on.
Travel is one of the things thathelps me grow the most and
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(12:28):
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(12:49):
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travel and grow together,something you have mentioned
before as well.
As like it's so important forus to talk about death, which we
(13:12):
so often resist and try awayfrom.
And I guess I want to startwith like one like why are we
afraid to talk about death?
But even a layer deeper is likewhy do you think we're so
afraid of death If that's theonly thing we know?
Speaker 3 (13:28):
Hmm, well, I think they're actually pretty tied
together.
We don't talk about it becausewe're so afraid of it.
We're so afraid of it because wedon't talk about it.
And so it became this reallykind of taboo subject that even
when we've tried to talk aboutit with loved ones, think even
(13:50):
children when they ask questions, what do we do?
We lie to children.
You know, like the goldfishdied, oh, we're just going to go
out and buy him a new one.
You know, like the dog dies,we're going to come up with all
these like stories rather thanhaving a conversation with
children.
And so by the time that weactually have to face death even
(14:11):
whether it's our own, say youknow, we get a terminal
diagnosis and it's like death islike in our face, of like
you're going to die right, orthat happens to a loved one or,
god forbid, somebody you knowdie suddenly again it happens
all the time.
We're so overwhelmed, becausewe've avoided it for so long,
(14:33):
that it really ends up beingalmost like a traumatic
experience where we don't knowhow to process everything that's
coming up.
Things get said between familymembers that are just downright
cruel.
Sometimes it ends up being anexperience that then we don't
(14:55):
want to ever face it, ever again.
So even the thought of it, youknow like even for my family.
You know, we went through anexperience around a grandmother
dying that it just was not good.
You know, people are still notspeaking in my family because of
it, and so now we all have thatexperience as part of our
memory of like death.
(15:15):
Well, it's not really death, itwas other stuff that was coming
up within the family that justgot triggered by the fact that
my grandmother was dying.
It wasn't her death that was sotraumatic, it was all the other
stuff that happened.
And so now all of us are goinginto our next experiences with
(15:35):
that old pain and that fear.
And the more that we don't talkthrough what happened.
You know, like it's not likeany of us are talking about it.
It's not like we sit down andwe have a conversation like hey,
by the way, those things thatwere said, I'm really sorry, I
didn't really mean it, we'rejust acting like none of it
happened or we're just nottalking to each other, and so it
just leads to us holding all ofthat inside and then the next
(15:59):
time we have to face the deathit's going to come up and so we
really need to talk about it.
The more it's like you know,what are they?
You got to feel the heal right,like it really is true that we
need to feel the emotions arounddeath and dying and grief and
all the unprocessed stuff thatwe're holding on to, and so the
(16:19):
part of doing that is going tobe having conversations.
That might be a littledifficult to start with, but the
more that you do it, the easierit gets.
But it can be difficult becausesometimes you want to have the
conversation with a loved one.
I mean, I've even talked topeople that work in hospice and
they'll say my spouse won't talkto me about what they want at
the end of life, and so the timeI try to, they change the
(16:41):
subject, they shut it down, theystart making jokes and this is
what I do for a living and theystill won't talk to me.
So, like I try to gentlyencourage people to have the
conversations, to start theconversations, and that's even
one of the things that I do as adeath ruler is I can just help
(17:03):
mediate conversations betweenpeople, help get the
conversation started, and I canjust get so that it stays on
track.
And it's not that you know,siblings are fighting with each
other over something that reallyhas nothing to do with it, but
we really do need to talk aboutit, and the more that we talk
(17:24):
about it, the less uncomfortableit will get.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Yeah, it's just like any other muscle you got to use
it to start to strengthen it andfor it to grow.
And as you were talking, Istarted to have the thought to
is, I think a part of whythere's so much fear around
death and conversations arounddeath is in part because it's
the only thing we can't provewhat happens after, like there
(17:51):
are so many beliefs and you canhold on to yours and the way
that supports you and that'sgreat, and there's no like
concrete scientific data.
That's like, ah, when X happens,why curse?
It's like it's the unknown andthat, I think, is something we
often aren't encouraged to learnhow to be with in this life is
(18:13):
the unknown, even though life isunknown all the time.
And I think that can makehaving conversations around
death really challenging,because there's not quite
language for what we don't know.
We can talk about this likeethereal sense of uncertainty
and all these things, but atsome point there aren't ever
(18:34):
words that will convey whatdeath is.
So I think that can almostcripple the conversation.
When you work with someone whois dying and they're having big
emotions, how do you help themprocess those emotions and that
(18:59):
reality, that in imminent ofdeath?
Speaker 3 (19:05):
I try to ask a lot of questions and then just listen
a lot.
I actually even sat once with awoman that was in the hospital.
It's the only time I ever sawher.
I sat with her for like twohours, I think, and I maybe said
I don't know five or six thingsin the two hours, and by the
(19:27):
time that we were done she saidoh, you are so wise, you are so
wonder.
Like she was just praising mefor how amazing I was.
I'm thinking I didn't really doanything, I didn't really even
say anything, but I just let hertalk and the conversation tends
to flow where they'll talkabout fears, they'll talk about
(19:50):
anxieties, they'll talk aboutwhat they think maybe is coming
for them after death.
Because even though we think weknow what we believe, when
we're actually facing death it'spretty surprising how many
people will actually changetheir beliefs and a lot of times
go back to the religiousbeliefs that they had at
childhood, and so there's a lotof processing that's going on
(20:13):
there and then they'll betalking about it and then all of
a sudden they'll go off in atangent and like she started
talking about Christmas cookies.
It was like so we kind of goall over the place.
But I think that's there andthat's the natural way to talk
about something that's a littleuncomfortable.
It's like we'll talk about theuncomfortable for a little bit
and then we'll go somewherethat's more comfortable and then
(20:34):
we'll swing back, and so my jobis usually just to kind of keep
asking and that's really a lotof it is just listening to
people.
I'm not there to tell them whatto believe.
I'm not there to tell them thatit's going to be okay, Because
(20:54):
so many times we want to do thatLike no, you're going to be
fine, Everything's going to befine.
I mean, yeah, it's going to befine.
I mean, you're going to die?
I mean it's it is what it is.
But I just want to be able to berealistic with somebody,
because they'll even sometimesask you know, like well, how,
(21:15):
how much longer do you thinkit'll be?
Like nobody really knows, even adoctor can't tell you how much
longer, and some people willhang on for a really long time
at the end, for whatever reason.
I mean, nobody knows for sure.
There's a lot of theories butnobody knows for sure, and so
when I'm with people that arenearing the end of life, it's
(21:40):
also interesting too, becausesometimes people get themselves
to a place where they're readyand then it's not happening.
And then they're like well, nowI just want it to like happen,
because now I'm prepared, I'mready, and it feels like it's
just not just dragging on andlike, well, it'll happen in its
(22:01):
own time.
I mean, that's the thing thebody knows what to do.
You know, we really view deathas this, like medical emergency,
and it's really not.
The body will know what to doon its own.
And sometimes I'll talk topeople and they'll say well, you
know, they'll die when it'sGod's will, and I'm like, yes,
(22:25):
but also they'll die when wetake off their breathing
machines and their IVs and likeso it's not really God's will
when we have them hooked up toall of this machinery that has
kept them alive.
And that's where it gets to bea really tricky place working
(22:46):
with people at the end of life,Because you know, I am there to
support people no matter what,even if what they believe is not
what I believe as far as likereligious beliefs or even what
they want at the end of life.
But it's really hard becausenow we can keep a body alive for
a really long time and thatjust puts a lot of people in a
(23:10):
place where again, it makes theexperience more traumatizing for
family members.
And then we have to makedecisions where, you know, in
the past that wasn't the case.
I mean, people would dienaturally.
And now we don't really do that.
And that's why even you know,most people have probably heard
(23:32):
of something called a DNR, a donot resuscitate.
There's a lot of people in endof life care that are now trying
to change the language to allownatural death.
Because it's not that we'resaying don't resuscitate
somebody, Like if I was tocollapse right now at 45 and
healthy, like yes, then youwould be resuscitating me.
(23:53):
But if somebody is, you know,in their 80s or if they're just
at the end of a long terminalillness, you're allowing them to
die naturally, and that's whatmost people would want if you
were to actually talk to them.
But it doesn't always happen.
We end up with these treatmentsand these, you know, machines
and all these things.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Yeah, I think sometimes we fight death so much
, we try to prolong life so muchwhen sometimes it's time for
death.
I even had a friend who had,you know, terminal cancer and
they moved to Washington stateso that he could have the choice
to, you know, to take care ofthat choice when it was time, to
(24:37):
not suffer anymoreunnecessarily.
If you know what's going tohappen and if you're ready for
it, we don't need to turn tothese endless extremes to stay
alive, because death is, in myexperience, much harder for the
living, you know, I think, forthe person who's going through
(24:57):
that.
Once you die, I like to holdthe belief that there's
something freeing, somethingbeautiful that happens and then
it's sad for us here on earthbecause you're not physically
with us in your body, but alsoyour spirit is, and there is a
window to me that it can open upto making life more alive when
(25:23):
someone in your life dies.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
Yeah, and I think for me a lot of it, when I think
about the sadness that we haveafter somebody dies.
A lot of times it's, yes, wemiss them, you know, we miss
being with them physically, buta lot of it is the regrets and
the shame and the guilt.
And you know, anytime, becausenow I kind of, because I think
(25:51):
about death so much, because Italk about it so much, I kind of
do this little like activity inmy head where you know, for
example, yesterday I went to thepark with my family and my kids
were like bickering a littlebit about I don't know whatever
it was.
I don't know whatever they werebickering about.
And in the past I would havegotten very frustrated.
(26:12):
Part of me would have shut down.
I would have wanted to justlike look at something on my
phone to distract myself.
I would have convinced myself Ihad something really important
to do, reading an email orwhatever, right.
And now I just watch it and Ithink, what if you were dead and
you were a ghost?
(26:32):
Would you want to be looking atyour phone or would you be
taking every single moment tolook at every little hair on
your child's head?
What?
Would you be?
doing and so it allows me tojust be so much more present
because I feel like, if Godforbid, if one of my children
(26:53):
were to die, I would giveanything to have them back and
fighting with each other.
I wouldn't be looking at myphone if I had a minute to even
go back in time and be with them.
So there's so much, even now,like I'm still processing some
shame and some guilt and regretsof like when they were little,
when I was like overwhelmed andI was exhausted and I would just
(27:16):
check out and I would distractmyself and I would self-medicate
with like drinking or marijuanaor just leaving the house
because I just couldn't do.
I still have some regrets andshame about that, but now I'm so
much more present every momentthat I have with them.
So not that it would be easyfor me if my husband or my
(27:38):
children were to die, but I knowthat I wouldn't have that same
feeling of how I wish I wouldhave, you know, shown up more.
I wish I would have been heremore, I wish I would have taken
the time to really fully bepresent with them.
And part of getting to thatunderstanding was because I have
(27:59):
learned so much about theregrets and the shame and all
the things that people have whensomebody dies or when they're
dying themselves, and it haschanged my life.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Yeah, I think that death is what makes life worth
living.
You know, the impermanence oflife is what makes it beautiful,
and when a death happens itopens our eyes to that.
We stop taking it for grantedand we can start living life
more fully.
You see the magic in it again,and that's a hard thing, but
(28:35):
it's a gift.
I think that's the death is thegreatest gift of life.
Because of that, yeah, so Iappreciate you sharing that and
I think especially what you'resaying, those moments of life
that it's so tempting becauselife is pain, like pain is a
part of life.
It's so tempting to want tonumb that, to resist it, to run
(28:57):
away from it, but that's thewholeness right there, that's
the, that's the part of it too.
So can we fully be here for ourlived experience, because this
is it and it's not gonna lastforever for us or for anyone
else.
Speaker 3 (29:13):
Yeah, and learning to go with the flow in life has
definitely helped me too, where,you know, there is always going
to be pain in life but, likeyou said, it doesn't have to
mean that I need to sufferterribly because of the pain.
And so Now I just got to thisplace where, you know, between
(29:35):
my meditation practice that I'vehad for a long time but now it
seems to have like reallystarted to sink in this idea of
just not being attached to anyof it, the good or the bad, and
Just kind of being like it justis what it is for this moment.
It is what it is.
It's not gonna be forever and99% of the time, if I was to
(30:00):
stop and get really Quiet withinme and look at whatever's
happening, it's fine, like it'sa, it's a perfect moment.
You know, even moments that aredifficult, even moments that
are painful, if I could reallyjust get some clarity around it,
(30:21):
overall it's fine.
I'm here, my children arehealthy, you know, I have a roof
over my head, I have food, ormaybe I don't have extra money,
you know, maybe I don't have allthese things.
You know, my business isn'tthriving, like all the things
that Part of my brain wants tokeep telling me is wrong with
everything in my life.
(30:42):
If I could really just shut thebrain up just even a little bit
and look around Like you knowwhat, my life is perfect.
It's perfect the way that it is, because the things that matter
most I have, and so the otherstuff doesn't really matter.
But the brain and social mediaand Society just plants all this
(31:08):
like garbage in our heads aboutwhat's important in life, and
so sometimes, when days are bad,I'm like alright, just get
really clear on what is reallyGoing fine.
Yeah, it usually does help, andnow I have less bad days.
I just don't react the same wayto situations like I used to.
I just react in a much calmerway when I'm like oh, whatever
(31:34):
it is so it is.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
This is happening right now, and yeah we, you can
acknowledge, because you knowthat life is temporary.
You know that the wide range ofemotions the good days, the bad
days are temporary too.
When you stop resisting death,you can stop resisting life and
the fullness of that experience.
Earlier we were talking abouthow a fear of death and
(31:59):
conversations around death arereally prominent for most people
, and I believe you've talkedbefore about how most of our
fears actually trace back to afear of death, even if we aren't
like conscious of it.
Do you mind sharing maybe, anexample of that and leaning into
(32:20):
, like, how can we start to Lookat our fears and notice if
they're rooted in a fear ofdeath and how do we work with
that?
Speaker 3 (32:29):
Yeah, it's really one of my favorite topics to think
about and to really kind of talkabout, because every time I
think of somebody's, you know,fears and phobias, and Really
any fear that we have, when Ireally dig into it deeper and
(32:51):
deeper, the root of it is alwaysthe fear of death, it on.
Let me think about any phobia,right, whether it's fear of
heights, fear of spiders, fearof, you know, being around
groups of people, you know, fearof the ocean, whatever it is,
it's because we're afraid we'regonna die.
And if we could get reallyclear on that idea first off, of
(33:16):
like, well, why are we afraidof those things?
I mean, I don't know.
Again, you know, depending onhow you know, down the rabbit
hole you want to go with things,some of it, I sometimes do
think if there is such a thingas a past life, maybe it is a
past life.
You know, like I've had a fearof Deep water since I was a
(33:38):
child, but yet I'm an excellentswimmer.
I was a lifeguard for manyyears, but there's still part of
me that when I'm like on a boatand we're in deep water, like I
just I feel it, I'm like, nope,I don't want to be here.
I don't like this, and that waswhen I first started hearing
about past lives, because I wastelling somebody that and
they're like maybe you drownedin a past life and I was like,
(33:59):
um, it's possible, I don't know,but either way again, it's
because I died that way, likeit's, it's the fear of death.
And so then I started thinkingeven about me.
I don't really have many fearsand phobias anymore, but I am
slightly Anisocial in the senseof, like we live in a small
(34:19):
community, I kind of stick tomyself.
I don't really like beingaround a lot of people because I
feel like people have alwayskind of thought I was a little
weird, which I am a little weirdand I'm okay with that Exactly.
I think weird is good too, butwhen you're in groups of small
town people, sometimes the weirdis not good.
(34:41):
And so then again I started tothink about it and I'm like well
, why do I, why do I worry aboutit?
Well, because when you're theweird woman in town, history
will prove that they often gotkilled.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
Yeah, you're the witch, you're the oh, the,
whatever, the whore.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
Yeah, oh, totally.
And Even you know that I startedthinking About the idea of like
the mother wound and the sisterwound.
And you know like I don't tendto have a lot of female friends
and again, it's partiallybecause of just like bad
experiences in the past where Igot really close with a woman
and then the relationships endedup like falling apart.
(35:24):
And then it usually became itfell apart because it got to a
point where we were just likeboth trying to like be the one
in charge, essentially, and thenI was like well, why is that?
And I was like well, that'sbecause society tells us that
you have to be the woman incharge, because you know you
(35:47):
have to have the attention ofthe man.
You need to be the one to getthat.
Like it really again went backto this idea of like, well, if
I'm not in charge, that meansI'm going to be the one that
gets pushed out, which means I'mgoing to be the one that's got
to like, you know, die by myselfon the streets.
You know, like it just tracesback to survival.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
We see connection with humans.
We seek belonging because ofthese core survival needs, even
people pleasing tendencies.
I think we talked about that inepisode 37 of how that root is
a root.
It's a root fear of survival,of needing to belong, to have
our needs met and be taken careof.
So I think you're really spoton with all of our fears.
(36:32):
We can trace back to this fearof death.
Then, when we stop fearingdeath, we stop fearing life.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
Yeah, it's true, because so many times I have
stopped myself from going outand engaging with people because
I just didn't want to feeluncomfortable.
And you know now that I gotreally clear about a lot of it,
I'm like, honestly, nobody'sgoing to kill me.
Like, even if somebodythreatens me, like it's not,
(37:05):
it's not likely to happen.
Could it happen, Of course.
Is it likely to happen?
No, and so what's the worstthat happens?
They think I'm weird, theydon't want to talk to me.
Okay, fine.
And so now I'm starting to getlike more involved with things
and I'm finding that again I'mliving life better where my
(37:26):
daughter's on a softball team.
She's nine, right, so it's likelittle kids.
They're not very good, but it'sadorable, right.
And so like you go to the gamesand it is just so like wholesome
, like small town wholesome.
But again, in the past I wouldhave just been a little bit
uncomfortable, I wouldn't havewanted to be there.
(37:46):
There would have always beenpart of me that was just like
thinking about other things,trying to be somewhere else.
It just I wouldn't have beenable to relax and feel good.
And I noticed a couple weeks agoat one of her softball games, I
was just like watching theseother little kids play and I was
like listening to the noisesand watching the sun come, like
over these trees, and the wholething was just so amazing and I
(38:10):
was so present.
I was so just in that momentand it was beautiful and I was
like, wow, this is really great,like this is what I want, this
is how I want to live my lifeall the time.
And so, working with that ideaof like why am I so afraid to be
around groups of people?
(38:31):
Again, they're not going tokill me and if they do, they're
not going to get away with it.
So it's fine, it'll be fine,but I just I really was so happy
to be able to feel thatexperience the way that I felt
it, because that is the way Iwant to live my life.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
In my experience, when there is proximity to death
whether it like I have friendswho've had near death
experiences or a loved one diesthere is one side of the coin.
That's the beauty of like wow,like you see life so differently
, you can live life much morefully.
(39:12):
It's almost like there's awindow of that and the window
like kind of goes away and it'seasy to fall back into old
patterns.
But then there's also a side ofthe coin where it makes living
life the same way hard.
It makes like connecting withpeople, I think, a little bit
harder because you see whatmatters and you see a way of
(39:33):
living so differently.
I would be curious about, assomeone who works in death like
all the time, how do you holdthe beauty of the gifts it gives
you and still allow yourself tolive fully in this life and
connect with others in anauthentic way?
Speaker 3 (39:57):
I think that I've always been.
That's part of why I didn'tconnect with people was because
there was always a part of methat didn't want to gossip.
I didn't want to chit chat, Ididn't want to talk about sports
and, you know, in politics eventhough I am engaged in politics
there was just so much of whatwas going on with other humans
(40:22):
that I was like, look y'all like, this is just not the important
stuff, let's talk about theimportant stuff.
And so I've always had a hardtime really connecting with
other people.
But now, I don't know, it hasgotten easier, and I think
(40:42):
partially because in the pastthere was always a little part
of me that was like lookingforward to dying just because I
wanted this experience to bedone.
I wasn't like, oh, I'm going tokill myself, but it was more
like like I don't know if ithappened tomorrow, I would be
okay with that, because there'snot really much here that is
(41:04):
kind of worth experiencing.
And you know, and I don't likerealizing that, that's the way I
used to feel, but it was.
And now I can connect withpeople and even though sometimes
it's frustrating, because Istill want the same thing where
(41:24):
I'm like, I want to have thesedifferent conversations, like I
don't want to chit chat, I don'twant to be at a party listening
to you talk about your kidssoccer team or whatever.
But then that's when I willkind of do that practice again
of where I almost imagine whatit would be like if I wasn't in
this physical body and I wasexperiencing this from a
(41:48):
different place, or if it wasjust a memory, if I was on my
deathbed and I was looking backat this softball game or this
party or this conversation thatI didn't really want to be in
because it was not interestingto me, right.
And I think that the thingsthat I used to feel in the past,
now I'm more.
It's almost like I can see lifemore as just like a game, as
(42:15):
like a movie that I'm just kindof participating in and it just
makes it much more pleasurablesometimes to think of it that
way of.
You know, even if our soul doesgo on right, like if I die and
this physical body is gone, butthe Jill right, the me that
makes me Jill, goes on.
(42:37):
It'll never be this experienceagain.
I'll never have this body, I'llnever be able to touch my
child's face again, I'll neverbe able to smell the smells that
I smell and taste the thingsthat I taste and like this will
never be here again and that'sokay.
I'm not going to attach myselfto this idea and want to grasp
(42:59):
it and hold on to it, but I'mgoing to appreciate it and so it
actually has really made it sothat, even though there is times
when I still really wish like Iwould love if everybody would
talk to me about death and Ithink that's the thing now too
is that you know, when I saywhat I do, when people you know
ask I got, what are you doing?
I'm like, oh, I'm a death rule.
I work with people at the endof life.
(43:19):
Either people do want to talkto me about it and they want to
tell me the stories of whentheir loved one died or you know
, whatever it is, or they getreally freaked out and they want
to walk away, and so that I'mlike, okay, sure, let's talk
about death, and if you reallydon't want to talk to me, that's
okay too, but it has.
It has changed me deeply.
(43:42):
Honestly, it has.
Speaker 1 (43:45):
Yeah, I think there's so much to the impermanence of
life that's kind of been thethread throughout this
conversation of like that we cansavor the sweetness of it
because it's impermanent in thehighs and lows, the good days,
the bad days.
They're all fleeting, just likethis life is, and I'm so glad
(44:08):
that you are holding space forso many people to be with death
in their last days and toprepare for death and have more
conversations about it and, bydoing so, helping us make life
more alive.
Do you mind sharing for anyonelistening what would be like one
bit of advice you would givelisteners to stop fearing their
(44:37):
death and to feel more alivetoday?
Speaker 3 (44:43):
I think probably the best piece of advice you know
and I want to say quote-unquoteadvice, because it's not really
that there's any advice to helpanybody be less afraid of death,
but just don't be afraid tolook at it and to think about it
(45:07):
and to, you know, have theconversations and to learn more
about it and when it does startto feel uncomfortable, ask
yourself why, what is it that ismaking you feel uncomfortable,
and then, if you can kind of getto even a little bit of that
why it'll help you just workthrough it and be able to
(45:32):
continue down this path ofreally just creating a healthier
relationship with death anddying and just naturally you
will start to live your lifedifferently.
It's not a conscious decision,it will just happen naturally
the more comfortable you getwith death.
Speaker 1 (45:50):
Yeah, yeah, and maybe a good place to start is if
listening to this episode hasbeen helpful for you.
A way you can open the door toa conversation is like share
this episode with someone inyour life and, you know, give
them a few days and then try tostart talking about it together.
Speaker 3 (46:08):
Open that door, I also have a Facebook group too,
where I post questions every,almost every day.
I sometimes don't on theweekends and they're not always
very specific about death, butthey're just questions to get
people thinking and I've had alot of comments.
(46:28):
People will message me or I'llrun into somebody out in public
that I don't even know is in mygroup and they'll say your
conversation or your questionshave started conversations
between me and my family,because I'll tell them the
question and then we starttalking about it.
And so you know I've really.
That's why I do the group.
It's not like I'm in thereselling, it really is just I
(46:50):
want people to start thinkingabout things and then starting
the conversation.
So people are always welcome tojoin my group just to get
little tastes of some things youcan think about.
Speaker 1 (47:02):
Yeah, and I'll be sure to get the link to that
group from you and I'll have itin the show notes for anyone who
wants to join and for peoplelistening.
What are other ways we cansupport you and your work?
Speaker 3 (47:15):
I do have a podcast seeing death clearly and I try
to do conversations with youknow, quote unquote normal
people like people that don'twork in end of life but just
want to talk about death andtheir experiences.
but then I do actually talk topeople that have written books,
you know all kinds ofprofessionals and the end of
(47:36):
life area so that again we couldjust get used to hearing
conversations about death anddying.
And then you know I work withclients you know, in person or
virtual, at any stage of life towork through fears and
anxieties, to have aconversation and get clear on
what you would want for your endof life care at any time, and I
(48:00):
work with end of lifecaregivers.
So just kind of you know, ifthere's anybody out there that
needs any type of support aroundanything having to do with end
of life, email me and I do, youknow, a complimentary 30 minute
session to kind of talk and seewhat your needs are and see if I
would be able to be helpful.
Awesome.
Speaker 1 (48:21):
And I'll make sure that I have all your info in the
show notes for people toconnect with you.
Perfect Thank you.
Yeah, jill, thank you so muchfor having this really important
conversation with us today andI appreciate you, the work that
you do, and I hope that we cankeep talking about death,
perfect Thank you for having me.
I really enjoyed it.
(48:44):
This is your invitation tosupport this podcast and this
offering into the world byjoining the dream team today.
You can think of it as amonthly coffee date for these
weekly conversations andmeditations.
Click the link in the shownotes to join and support this
offering.
And you can also support thispodcast by following on your
(49:07):
favorite streaming platform,leaving a review.
I love reading your words andsharing an episode you love with
a friend and on social media.
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