How to Decide If You Should Have Kids or Not: Family Planning WIth Keltie Maguire (102)

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
There can often be a lot of talk about you know good
and bad reasons for choosingchild-free or choosing to have
kids.
I think it's more about like isit a good or bad reason for you
?
Having that honesty withourselves is really important,
and I do think that not justdoing it because it's the thing
we're seeing other people doing,but really being like why do I
personally want this or why do Inot want this?

Speaker 3 (00:23):
Hi everyone and welcome back to how the Wise One
Grows.
So today we get to talk about areally really big life question
, and that is the decision tohave kids or not.
But before we dive into thisreally important conversation,
let's just take a moment to landhere, together with three deep

(00:45):
breaths.
So just take a moment to noticewhere your body makes contact
with the earth and, if it's saferight now, you can gently rest
your eyes or soften your gaze,maybe even drop your shoulders
down the back, inhale, fill yourchest, fill your belly with air

(01:07):
, exhale, open your mouth, letit out, inhale, chest and belly.
Expand, exhale, let it all.
Go One more inhale and exhaleand return to that point of

(01:35):
contact with the earth as youslowly open your eyes and return
to this space.
I am so excited for thisconversation.
I know I say that about all ofour episodes, but I feel like
this is a particularly juicy one.
And to guide us in thisconversation, listeners have

(01:57):
sent in their thoughts andquestions about this topic and
we have Kelty McGuire, a claritycoach, to guide us.
So just a bit about Kelty.
Kelty began speaking about herdecade-long struggle to decide
whether to have kids or staychild-free and her eventual

(02:18):
arrival at the decision toembrace a child-free life.
Kelty began hearing fromcountless women who related to
her story and felt largelyinvisible and unsupported in the
decision-making process.
She now helps women who arestuck, like she was, to get
clarity on whether motherhood ora child-free path is for them

(02:42):
so they can live a joyful,dynamic and fulfilling life, no
matter the choice.
Kelty, thank you so much forbeing here and for having the
conversation, having thisconversation with us today.
Um, for me personally, I didn'treally realize that it got to

(03:02):
be a question to have kids ornot until I got to a place in my
life where, like I could Iguess I could for a while, but
where it was more of a reality.
So thank you so much forholding space for us to talk
about this question.

Speaker 1 (03:19):
You're most welcome, and that's something that I hear
from so many people, and thatwas my experience as well.
I mean, I think intellectuallyI knew that there was a choice,
but based on what I was seeingaround me and I guess, sort of
the precedent that was set bywomen in my life, having kids
was just what you did or woulddo.
So I also didn't question thatuntil I really came to this sort

(03:41):
of crisis of faith of is thisactually what I want for myself?
Is this that right path for me?

Speaker 3 (03:47):
Yeah, do you mind sharing briefly about your story
of deciding if you wanted tohave kids or not and how you
finally made that decision?

Speaker 1 (03:58):
Yeah, definitely.
Well, I think you know, perhaps, as some listeners might be
able to relate, growing up, Ihad the assumption that I would
one day become a mom.
I grew up in a really, I guess,quite traditional household mom
, dad, there were three of uskids.
I was the eldest, the onlydaughter, and, although it
wasn't something that was openlyspoken about, as far as this is
the expectation for you, again,it was just what I saw modeled

(04:21):
around me and, to be honest, itdidn't occur to me until much,
much later, probably in my earlythirties or mid thirties, that
I really had not a single rolemodel of a woman in particular,
but I want to say almost peoplein general that had not gone on
to have kids at some point, youknow, whether through becoming
birth, parents or whetheradoption, what have you?

(04:43):
Everyone, it seemed in my life,whether aunts and uncles,
family, friends, they were allparents, and so the assumption
was that I would do this at somepoint, but it would be later,
and so I treated it as a laterproblem.
If you will, a later questionbecause, for a long time I was
preoccupied with, of course,growing up, becoming a young
adult, going to university,finding myself in different

(05:03):
relationships.
I was doing a lot of traveling,I was living overseas for a
time and it was really only, Iwould say, in my later twenties,
after meeting my now husband Iwas 26, pardon me, 27 when we
met that I started to questionmore like not even so much do I
want kids, but when are we goingto have kids?

(05:25):
And I think this was reallybased on what I saw going around
around me, which is that otherpeople are getting married and
having children.
And although there was a lot ofme that this idea of having
kids didn't really appeal to meon various levels, I thought
that I would still do it.
It was just like I'm not readynow.
It was a constantly feeling ofI'm not ready, not now and again

(05:45):
, maybe people can relate tothis idea of like, once I do
this, once we do that when we're30, when we're 32, then maybe
that's something that we'llpursue.
And the interesting thing is, Ifound myself in this wonderful
relationship with this man whowould be an incredible father
really.
You know, knowing this wouldhopefully be my would be an

(06:05):
incredible father really.
You know, knowing this wouldhopefully be my life's
relationship.
You know my big love andalthough I had this great
foundation in terms of myrelationship and I had gone to
school and I was doing work Iloved and I had this support and
I felt well-resourced in asense, to have a child, it was
something I still didn't want.
And I would say I became quiteincreasingly consumed with this

(06:25):
question, like when, and maybemaybe at some point I thought
you know, if I have a child, Iguess the realization slowly
dawned on me, but maybe this issomething I wouldn't do.
But I became so consumed withit that I finally told myself
that I was going to stopthinking about it because I
wasn't coming to conclusions andthat I would make a decision
when I was 35.

(06:46):
And the reason I picked thismagic number, 35, and it's one
that people may be, you know,nodding their heads as you are
this is when we've been told, aswomen, that our fertility,
there's sort of the fertilitydrop off and there's actually,
you know, some truth and alsothat's not entirely true that
that happens.
But this was the number in myhead.
Okay, 35, I'll figure it out.
So I thought, like I'm going toleave this until the 11th hour,

(07:08):
yeah, and again, like myhusband and I we'd often say,
like when we have kids or later,like the talking was that we
have children, but there wasnothing very firm or fixed about
that.
And so 35 arrived and I stilldidn't know if it was what I
wanted and I just kind of keptpushing it off, pushing it off.
And at that point in time andI'm trying to remember now so
I'm 41, six years ago almost Imoved from Vancouver, canada, to

(07:31):
Munich, germany, which is whereI'm now based, and I want to
say that partly, I think themove was precipitated by this
idea that I saw everyone aroundme eventually getting married,
having a child or children, orat least planning or trying to.
And I felt, like my husband andI, life was kind of stagnant or
standing still.
And it wasn't bad, you know, itwas great.

(07:53):
I had a business I loved, I um,you know he was doing work, he
enjoyed, we had a really, reallygood, rich life, and yet people
were moving to the suburbs.
They're consumed with, you know, kids are growing up, they're
going to school, and so wedecided also but he's German, so
you know we'd always had thisthought or agreement that we
would live on his side of theworld for some point, and so we
moved here in 2018.

(08:13):
And in my mind, it was alsothis idea of like let's do
something that we want forourselves, where we're really
like enacting change in our ownlife, as opposed to just sitting
around feeling like, okay, well, you know, we're the people
without kids and everything elseis happening and that's not
really what we want.
And so it's so funny to thinkback, because I remember friends
asking me like so are the twoof you going to have kids?
And I would always say maybe.

(08:34):
We're not sure, you know, I'mnot sure, maybe, not, maybe.
And after coming here, I wantto say probably.
Within a year or so of arrivingin Germany, I thought I have to
decide.
Like I could see 40 approaching, I had this point of been with
my partner probably for 10 yearsand I thought nothing's
changing.
Like I I can think about thisquestion for the rest of my life

(08:54):
.
You know, opportunity to havekids, if that exists for me,
would pass me by, and so I hadto really do a lot of soul
searching and also commit to adecision-making process, like
not just hope that the, that the, the answer would come to me,
but actually say I'm going to goout and find it, because what
so many of us are told is thatdon't worry about it, you're,

(09:15):
you'll just know.
You'll just know when it's timeto become a mom, you'll just
know when it's time to have kids, you'll just know this is what
you want.
And I'm thinking okay, I'm now35, 36, 37 years old, I don't
just know.
And so I started working with alife coach.
I started really engaging withthe topic.
I became what I call child-freecurious, so really noticing that

(09:36):
there were communities of womenwho had actively chosen this
path for themselves, and where Iultimately ended up was feeling
like I don't belong on eitherside.
I don't identify with the momsthat I know, and I want to say
that I knew women who, sure,since you know I wanted to be a
mother, since I was a young girl, I had friends like that.
But I also knew women who said,meh, I'm not really sure if

(09:59):
it's what I want, I'm not reallysold on it, I'm kind of
ambivalent, it doesn't soundthat great to me, and ultimately
they would become, they wouldbecome moms, and for me that was
always this feeling of likeit's not personal abandonment,
but sort of this feeling of it'sinevitable.
Of course I'm going to have achild and so I didn't.
I didn't identify with any ofthat.
And yet when I saw thechild-free community or
communities online, I also didnot identify with this, really,

(10:22):
you know, strong sort ofposition of likewise never
wanted it.
Kids are gross, you know,parenting stupid, like lots of
really kind of negativeperspectives on this all, and I
thought what is wrong with me?
I feel so weird.
There must be something wrongwith me.
Like, do I need to go to thedoctor and get my hormones
checked?
Am I broken as a woman?

(10:43):
Why am I not so?
Why am I so unfeminine?
Like, what is wrong with me?
Is this because of whathappened to me, you know, in my
youth?
Is whatever that said?
Slowly and it was really aprocess I came to not just
recognize that I wanted to staychild free, but that it was more
of an acceptance of that desire.

(11:03):
I think for a time I hadrecognized that becoming a mom
was not for me, and yet I wasjudging myself because of the
messaging that we get that thatis not the okay thing to do, and
so, I guess, to sort of wrap upmy long story, which is, of
course, very abbreviated, it wasreally about starting to show
myself some compassion andunderstanding that this, I

(11:27):
believe, is just who I am, orwho I've become through the
experiences I've had in my life,and that there's nothing wrong
with a not knowing, with feelingambivalent, and there's nothing
wrong with choosing a childfree path.
So it's, it's been a few yearssince that point and, as you
shared, um, in your lovely intro, I've now heard from so many
other, you know, folks of allgenders saying like this is my

(11:49):
story too.
I totally identify with this.
I don't know what I want, Idon't know which is which is for
me.

Speaker 3 (11:54):
So oh, kelty there, everything you just said I am so
excited to dive deeper into.
And as you were talking and yousaid the term child-free,
curious.
It reminds me a lot A few weeksago I believe it was episode 88
, I'll have it linked in theshow notes.

(12:15):
We did a series of sobercurious conversations and I
believe Ruby Warrington foundedthe term Sober Curious and has
written Woman Without Kids aboutthis topic as well.
Yeah, and I think it's soimportant for us to start
questioning things like this.
Like when I heard the termSober Curious, I was like I had

(12:39):
no idea that that was me and Ialso like didn't really have
this is silly to say but like Ididn't really process that not
drinking was an option.
If you like weren't analcoholic, like I thought like,
oh, like you have to have areally hardcore reason to not
drink.
And now I don't have any issueswith alcohol, I just don't do

(13:01):
it.
I don't drink because I don'tlike it.
And it feels like to me thisconversation about the decision
to have kids or not really rootsin the heart of this podcast,
which is like how can we livewith intention and authenticity?
Yeah, and I'm so glad that youare holding space for people to

(13:21):
explore this very importantdecision within themselves.
Thank, you.
And how you talked about.
You know, my background is inmindfulness and when you were
talking about as you came toyour decision to not have kids,
it seems like two ingredientsthat really supported you in

(13:42):
that were steeping in radicalacceptance and radical
self-compassion.
Because there are so manystories from society we're
getting that are telling us somany other things about like, oh
, it's unnatural to be a womanand not want to have kids, it's
shameful, it's selfish, like thelist can go on and on and we'll

(14:05):
dive deeper into that, but Ithink that capacity to really
listen to yourself and meet allof those parts with acceptance
and compassion is like kind ofthe secret sauce to everything
100% yeah, and I love what yousaid about really like at the
root of this, all it's aboutliving with intention and being

(14:25):
conscious and conscientious, andit's something that we're not
taught to do.

Speaker 1 (14:30):
It's like we follow this script.
We act as we see others aroundus acting and we never stop to
ask ourselves is this for me?
Is this a right path?
And those who question it, ofcourse, were effectively scorned
for doing so.
And we're told that that's notthe normal thing in the normal
way.

Speaker 3 (14:47):
Absolutely, and you know that choice is being taken
away from so many people too.
And acknowledging like we dohave agency in this decision and
deserve that autonomy.

Speaker 1 (15:02):
A hundred percent.
It's a privilege, I tell people, if you have an opportunity to
make this decision, that is onethat so many women in this world
, for a multitude of reasons,don't have.
And so if you have thatprivilege like choose wisely and
choose consciously, it's a giftto be able to do that.

Speaker 3 (15:24):
We now have a free, intentional living community on
discord where you can cometogether with fellow listeners
to reflect on the conversationswe've had on the podcast.
We not only talk about thepodcast but really all the
things that support us in livingwith intention.
There's also a link in the shownotes to join this free
community and I would be honoredto have you there.

(15:45):
We actually had a listenersubmit a question about people
who identify in the queercommunity.
They wanted to know, you know,if it's something that people in
the queer community have aneasier experience with that

(16:07):
decision, being a being in acommunity where it's more
normalized might make thatexperience more supportive.

Speaker 1 (16:31):
Yeah, no, it's definitely something to consider
and I think, as with you know,certainly any identity we may
have, there's going to bechallenges and there's also
going to be perhaps, like youknow, benefits, if you will, or
things that are made easier.
And you know, for example, somepeople say like, for example,
gender roles are a really bigconcern for a lot of people in

(16:54):
cis heterosexual, you know,partnerships, and so that is
something that you may not see,for example, with two women who
are in partnership, becausethere's more of an understanding
of how those roles might beslid and what that might look
like, or less of an assumption,I should say, of how those
things might be, not even justwithin the relationship, but
like external to it.
I think, a lot of times,heterosexual couples say, you

(17:15):
know, we want to have thatbalance or we want things to be
equitable, but that's not alwayswhat happens, based on how the
world has been set up to supportor not support them.

Speaker 3 (17:24):
Yeah, and even as someone in a female body like I,
don't think it will ever beequitable, because this is
directly impacting my body andimpacting me on like a cellular
level no matter how supportiveyour partner is and how much you
try to split roles, if you arethe one that's having a human

(17:47):
come out of your body, that isan entirely different thing, and
there's so many risks abouthaving a kid and what that does
to you and your physical healththat people don't talk about.
And the more women I speak towho are in this phase of trying
to get pregnant havingmiscarriages, having really hard

(18:10):
illnesses arise because ofthese things it's just something
that women are not nearlysupported enough around and I
think it's a really importantelement to call into the
conversation is like the thephysical risk it puts women at
yeah, yeah, and oftentimes somuch more than need be.

Speaker 1 (18:29):
Right, you look at, yeah, you look at um maternal
mortality rates in places likethe us I believe the uk as well
especially among populationslike the black population
community, for example.
It's like it's, it's horribleand those deaths should not be
happening.
But the fact of the matter is,as it stands now, there are
greater risks and greater risks,specifically for certain groups
of women.

Speaker 3 (18:50):
Yeah, so one listener sent in this question that I
kind of want to step into.
I'll play their response.
The audio on this one's alittle spotty, but it's short,
so just bear with me on that.

Speaker 6 (19:05):
I am a 31 year old female who is child free.
I have always pretty much feltlike I would not have kids and
still feel, about 95%, that I donot want to have children,
although as I am starting to ageand my biological clock is

(19:26):
beginning to tick, and if I didhave kids I definitely would
prefer not to be an older mom.
So my question is are therespecific questions that you
recommend asking oneself to helpdefine thought clarity,
especially self to help definethat clarity, especially if you

(19:52):
are feeling like you are morelikely than not going to have
children.

Speaker 3 (19:53):
Yeah, so that question coming in is just like
where do people start whenthey're trying to decide if they
want to have kids or not?

Speaker 1 (20:03):
Yeah, oh, it's such a good question and what I want
to recommend is, first of all,being okay with being in
discomfort and uncertainty,which nobody's really okay with,
right, we hate that and that'spart of what makes this tricky
is not just the enormity of thisdecision, but the fact that it
feels so bad, not knowing andthere's so much doubt around
what's going to happen if I makethe wrong decision.

(20:24):
But being okay with whereyou're at and recognizing that
there are so many other peoplewho also either feel or have
felt this way I know I hear froma lot of people like that's
brought them a lot of comfort,for example, finding myself and
our community.
Second of all, what I reallyrecommend and again, this is
tough to do, but is to set asidethe question of do I want to

(20:46):
have children or not and reallylook at how do I want to live.
You know, how do I want my lifeto look.
Yeah, so doing like a zoom outapproach, if you will, or what I
like to call it is, you know,starting on the macro level and
moving more to the micro, and solooking at things like, really,
what are my priorities in life,how do I want to spend my time

(21:08):
and energy, what are my uniquewants, needs and desires?
And these are questions that weare so seldom encouraged to ask
, that I mean I can't tell youthe number of people in the work
that I do as a clarity coachwho I ask them, whether it
concerns career, this decision,what have you, what do you want?
And the answer is I don't know,I have no idea what I want.

(21:30):
And there are, of course, somany reasons that we are
disconnected from our bodies,from our own wisdom, from our
inner knowing.
But again, taking that do Iwant to have children?
Question out of the equationand just being like what do I
know for sure about how I wantto live my life, what my values
are, what my priorities are, etcetera.
And the more we can.

Speaker 3 (21:49):
Yeah, I like to think of it as like the question
isn't necessarily like if youwant to have kids, but it's like
what are the potential lifepaths that you can pursue?
I love that reframe.
Sorry to cut you off, no not atall.

Speaker 1 (22:02):
I'm glad you, I'm glad you find that helpful and
it, yeah, it's.
You know, it's ultimately aboutlike setting the stage, so to
speak, or thinking about this aslike a canvas upon which we're
then going to like draw apicture.
First, we need to look atwhat's this canvas we're working
with and, of course, there maybe certain things that we learn
about ourselves in our livesthat are going to be compatible
with both paths.

(22:22):
But there also may berealizations that a person has
that makes them say or givepause to Ooh, I'm not sure if
having children is going to bethat right thing for me.
Um, so that can be a goodstarting point and that's I mean
, that's work that's going toserve us in all areas of our
life and it's continuous.
It's not like we say, okay, nowI know myself, you know.
Therefore, now I can make thisdecision, but again, becoming

(22:46):
more well acquainted withourselves and we can do that
through journaling or throughworking with a coach or
therapist, or through meditationand just doing reflection, but
really asking ourselves some ofthose fundamental questions.
The other thing to look at is,really, what are the key sort of
fears that are keeping me stuckin this decision.
So what am I?
What am I really afraid of whenI look at either decision or

(23:09):
maybe that, let's say the paththat I'm really considering
pursuing?
And so, in my case, I wasstrongly leaning towards staying
child free and when I thoughtabout, like what about?
That scares me, that, uh,that's preventing me from really
leaning into it, it was theclassic things that you know, a
lot of people are going to sayand think is like what if I
regret it when I get older?
What if I die alone?

Speaker 4 (23:31):
What if?
What if?
What if?

Speaker 1 (23:32):
it was like it was future tripping Right and, and
those questions are worthcertainly unpacking, exploring,
and there are certain thingsthat we can, we can do to help
manage and calm those fears.
And second to fears, it's alsoabout looking at the beliefs
that we have about, like, whatdoes that mean if I choose that?
Like if I am a woman whodoesn't have kids, what does

(23:54):
that mean about me?
What do I think or feel aboutmyself?
What do I perceive others arenow going to think about me.
The belief might be I'm going tobe, you know, an outsider
amongst my friends and family ifI don't have kids.
And so, again, taking a deeperlook at that and really looking
at you know our own beliefs andthen, if there are ways to
reshape those in such that theywill serve us better, to like

(24:17):
it's like by really lookingthese things in the face, so to
speak, it can help us clear theway, like looking at our
monsters and being our demonsand saying, okay, who are you?
Then we can really start toactually connect with what we
want, because we're clearingaway the weeds, so to speak.

Speaker 3 (24:34):
Yeah, that reminds me you know a lot of what you're
saying.
I feel like it's really steepedin mindfulness work and that
belief system of like noticingwhat are the stories you're
telling yourself about this?
What are, what is thatsoundtrack in your head?
And then I really love Byron,katie and the four questions
about like um, is this is thisbelief true?

(24:57):
Can I absolutely know it to betrue?
And then I think it's like whatif this belief wasn't true?
You know it allows you toreally settle with like what
stories am I telling myself?
What realities quote unquote amI painting for myself that
might not actually be there?
And how can I reframe this?

(25:17):
And not even like reframe, butlike take a new perspective and
take a new seat in the way Irelate to these societal stories
and these stories that are inmy mind.

Speaker 1 (25:28):
Yeah, I totally agree , and I love Byron Katie's four
questions.
Those are so good and theycould be so good for doing this
sort of beliefs work.
I want to add that I thinkthere's a point that we can get
to with that where,intellectually, we know or
believe something else.
So we say, of course it's fineto choose a child-free path, for
example.
However, it's something else toreally like embody that and to

(25:52):
feel it, and I think for a lotof us it's more of like an
emotional or even physical sortof sensation that we have, that
like something is amiss orsomething feels unsafe, and so
there's no one size fits allsolution for that, except to
advise that like there aredifferent modalities that we can
sort of employ and that it'ssomething that takes time.
And I also think it's aboutcompiling the evidence.

(26:15):
As I say, I like to think ofmyself as a bit of a detective,
like how can we like put on ourmagnifying glass or seeing eye
and think about what evidence doI have to support a different
belief?
So if we say it's fully normalto to choose the child-free path
, to look at, you know, who do I, who do I regard as being like

(26:36):
a very, you know, normal,healthy, well-adjusted person,
if you want, you know.
Of course we can also look atwhat is normal.
Do I want to be normal?
But like really looking atassembling a new way of viewing
the world based on experienceswe've had, based on people we
know, based on all these otherthings that we know to be true
that may be outside of thisarena, Like, for example, if we
feel really fearful to askourselves you know, when have I

(26:57):
felt really fearful making a bigdecision and yet it served me
well, despite my uncertainty andso, knowing I've done this
before.
It's okay for people not tolike what I choose, you know?
Oh, there was that time Iswitched my program at
university and I dropped out ofmed school and my parents were
pissed off or whatever.
That can then reinforce like,yeah, but that served me and
that was good and that was hard,but they got over it or they

(27:18):
didn't, but like, I dealt withit.

Speaker 3 (27:20):
So yeah, developing that deep sense of self-trust
within yourself.

Speaker 1 (27:26):
Yeah with it.
So yeah, developing that deepsense of self-trust within
yourself.
Yeah, yeah, that's a big piecefor sure.

Speaker 3 (27:33):
Okay, if you were listening to that and just
thought, darn like I really wishI was taking notes for that.
Don't worry, I nerded out foryou and I have created a kids or
child free cheat sheet basedoff of Kelty's wisdom from
today's conversation.
So just click the link in theshow notes to get the guide.
Oh, and also, if you don'talready, you should totally

(27:54):
support this podcast by joiningthe dream team for as little as
$3 a month.
There is also a link in theshow notes to join and support
the operating costs of thislovely offering I want to share
from this next listener.
They were kind of reflecting onsome of the hardest parts about

(28:17):
making the decision-makingprocess for themselves, and this
one I love because it came froma man, which I know most of
this conversation is aroundwomen.
It's easier to talk about whenwe are women, but it is
important, I think, toacknowledge that it's a choice
that you should absolutely makefor yourself, and it's not

(28:37):
necessarily one that happens inisolation, you know we're often
working with another partner.
So that's another layer of thedynamic we have to sift through.
But here is a submission fromour next listener.

Speaker 4 (28:58):
Growing up, I never really thought about what being
a dad could look like.
I never envisioned myself as adad, and it's only in the last
couple of years, now that I'mmarried and more people around
me that are my contemporariesare having kids, do I think
about what it would be like forme to also be a father, and it

(29:18):
really mostly just terrifies me.
I think that fear of messing upor not being good at it is
probably the biggest thingthat's holding me back, and also
just not knowing if it'ssomething that like.
Is it something that I reallywant to do or does it just look
like fun on Instagram?

(29:39):
I guess is the like.
I just don't.
I have no idea what it would belike, and maybe it's one of
those things where you just likedon't know what it's like until
you do it, and I don't know ifI'm ever going to be able to
like take that leap confidently,but I guess we'll see.
Because I don't belong to areally strong family unit like

(30:03):
my extended family I'm not veryclose with and I'm not super
close with my parents, andbecause I don't belong to any
sort of like religious community, I feel like I don't have a
very clear like reason ormethodology or like focus on,

(30:25):
like why kids should be part ofmy life.
So until I figure that out, Ifeel like, until I figure out
why I want to have kids like areally concrete reason and feel
like it's true for me, I don'tthink I'm going to do it.

Speaker 3 (30:45):
So there's a lot in that.

Speaker 1 (30:49):
Yeah, what an amazing message.
First of all, and I just wantto commend the thoughtfulness of
this person and how self-awarehe seems, and I can already tell
how much thought has been putinto this, or at least the
enormity of this decision, which, a it's enormous.
B I mean it's one of the onlythings in life that we can't try

(31:09):
on for size before committingto.
I mean, there's perhaps otherexamples, but to like such an
extent as this, no, I think whathe says at the end is really
important.
You know, until I find a reasonwhy I want to do this, I'm not
going to do it.
And I think we should be askingourselves why am I choosing
this path?
And sometimes the answer is assimple as because I don't want

(31:31):
to I mean, that's a great reasonor because I want to.
You know, parents also saybecause I want to.
But I think we we need to havehonesty with ourselves in terms
of what our drivers are, and Iknow there can often be a lot of
talk about, you know, good andbad reasons for choosing child
free or choosing to have kids.
Like, well, if you say you'rehaving kids because you want
someone to love or you want tohave the connection in your

(31:52):
family you didn't have.
That's a bad reason, right?
Some people might say that, andI think it's more about like,
is it a good or bad reason foryou?
Like, can you be?
Do you think that that is agood reason to have a child?
Do you think you can offer thatchild what that child needs and
support them in a way?
The child needs to be supported.
And so I think having thathonesty with ourselves is really

(32:13):
important, and I do think thatnot just doing it, because it's
the thing we're seeing otherpeople doing but really being
like why do I personally wantthis, or why do I not want this?
Now, I certainly can understandwhat he's saying about.
You know, if we haven't had,for example, like, healthy
relationships with our ownparents or within our own family
, or even if we don't have thatcloseness right now to maybe see

(32:35):
, for example, relationshipsbetween a sibling and a niece or
nephew, it can be hard to knowwhat that may look like for us,
or that we don't necessarilyhave someone that we can speak
with about this.
But I think, if we're willingto do the work for ourselves and
this again, like this, is basedon a 30 second audio clip, but
what I hear is a man that he'sso cognizant of what is going on

(32:57):
for himself and what hissituation has been, and he
strikes me as someone who'sprobably done quite a few work,
quite a bit of work as far ashis own self-development, and I
just think you know these arethe type of parents that we need
in this world.
However, just because you wouldbe a great parent doesn't mean
you should parent.
I think I would be probably areally good mom in many ways,

(33:18):
and yet, for various reasons,it's the path that I've not
chosen for myself, and so, yeah,I mean taking a look at things.
I guess the last thing I want toI want to offer is, although
there's no real way of trying on, for size, what it is to parent
, there is opportunity, I think,to have really honest, open
conversations with people thatwe're not very often having, but

(33:40):
to say to people like, reallylike, give me the ins and outs
of what it's like to parent, andto ask specific questions,
because some people will say,yeah, you know it's amazing or
it's really freaking hard, butlike, what does that mean?
What does that entail?
And so to have pointedquestions like what has been
most surprising to you sincebecoming a parent?
What stage has been mostdifficult?

(34:01):
What has been some of the goodthings for your relationship,
your own relationship?
What have been some of thechallenges?
And so, like being selectiveabout what you want to know, I
would also offer although theinternet can be, you know, a
dumpster fire, we also sometimescan hear and be witness to
conversations that peopleotherwise would not share.

(34:21):
So, for example, on Reddit,there are various groups and
subgroups around people.
There's like the fence sittersgroup for people who are trying
to decide whether they want tohave parents.
There's a regretful, regretfulparents or regretting parenthood
thread and so sometimes you cankind of like you know, put your
ear to the wall, so to speak,and say what are people saying
and what am I hearing?

(34:42):
That may make me have moreawareness of my own situation
and like what I recognize oridentify the other piece with
that is to spend some time withpeople's children, and people
will say, of course, there'snothing like having your own
children, and that someoneelse's kid or kids may drive you
up a wall, but I do think itcan give you an idea of, for

(35:04):
example, parts of parenting thatcan be really mundane, because
there are parts that are or someof the challenges that may come
up, or even what a dailyroutine looks like.
And if you find yourself, forexample, spending a weekend with
somebody and their kids, ormaybe during the week going to
school forget about holiday timebut you may see and witness and

(35:25):
hear things that make you think, okay, I'm curious, I want to
know more.
Or that made you think, wow, Idid not know, this was what was
involved.

Speaker 5 (35:32):
Right.

Speaker 3 (35:34):
Yeah, that's all really really wonderful advice.
Um, and two things that I kindof want to pull out from that is
when we're talking about likeso many elements are like one,
making this choice for yourself,and two, I think it's also
really important to like centerthe child in that conversation

(35:54):
too.
Like, am I bringing a kid inthis world to meet like an unmet
need I had with my family orthese other unmet needs in my
life that I'm not have notfulfilled, or is that like, am I
bringing this child into theworld with the capacity to honor
that individual life separateof myself, because, even though

(36:16):
it's something that comes fromyou, that being it's its own
form of life?
um, yeah, and needing to supportit and that that's so important
yeah yeah, and when they weretalking about their relationship
with family, it reminded me abit of the term mother hunger.
I recently came across this,kelly McDaniel, are you familiar

(36:38):
with?

Speaker 1 (36:38):
I'm not, and I'm thinking like why do I not know
about this term and this work?

Speaker 3 (36:43):
yeah, I will, I will share resources with you and I
will link it in the show notesfor others listening.
But, um, kelly McDaniel haskind of coined the term mother
hunger, which I heard throughRuby Warrington and it's kind of
the adjacent to sober curious,and I don't know much.
But from what I have surfacelevel pulled from it, it seems

(37:05):
like mother hunger like existson a spectrum and it names, like
these invisible wounds of maybelike missing comfort or safety
or guidance from our caregiversand that can cause aversion to
wanting to step into parenthood,or that can cause like a desire
to like have those unmet needsfilled.

(37:28):
So like really seeing it aslike a hunger, like something
like needs to be stated yeah,yeah, yeah, and something inside
of you.
Um, so that's just.
I'll link that for listeners toexplore mother hunger.
But I think it's a reallycurious thing to think about as
well.
And like, what were our storiestold from our parents being

(37:53):
passed down about?
Like, did they regret havingkids?
Were they honest with us aboutwhat it was like?
Or did they always put on asmile and act like it was the
best thing in the world?

Speaker 1 (38:02):
You know having more and more spaces where we can
explore our own rearing withthat and how it impacts us in
the decision-making process,yeah, well, and it's funny
because now my suspicion is sheprobably Ruby Warrington
probably refers to this work inWomen Without Kids, which is a
book I've read and I've also hadRuby Warrington.
She's appearing on my podcastrelatively soon.

(38:23):
We've had that conversationalready.
So, yeah, I know, fangirlmoment, right, fantastic.
So, um, but, but, and actuallyRuby and I talk about this idea
of this motherhood spectrum,which I also want to just kind
of give voice to, and the idea,just like we know, for example,
that sexuality exists on acontinuum, it's a, it's a
spectrum, it's like we've sooften thought that people are

(38:46):
either gay or they're straightand it's this or it's that, but
they've actually shown thatthere can be sort of this like
gradient in between, so to speak, and that that can shift and
change.
And similarly with themotherhood spectrum which he
refers to or talks about, isthis idea that, like some of us
aren't necessarily positioned onone end or the other of, like
you know, I really am inclinedto or well set up to be, or, you

(39:09):
know, personally I'm the kindof person who would want to be a
mom and and, and nor are weadamantly on that child-free
side, but we may exist somewherein the middle and it's that
ambivalence and uncertainty andthat gray zone that is so
difficult and uncomfortable forus.
I think, you know, culturallyspeaking, because we want things
to be straightforward, werevere what is, you know, the

(39:29):
black and the white.
So, yeah, it's, it's now.
Of course I want to.
I'd love to actually get intoKelly's work around this, but
I'm thinking, oh, I was a badstudent.
I think I know about thisalready.

Speaker 3 (39:41):
No, you are not.
There's so much to unpack, yeah, but I do really love what
you're saying about so much oflife.
We want to be black and white,but that's not whole and in my
experience, with certainty anddoubt and really everything in
life, like you, can't have onewithout the other.

(40:01):
So, like, within everycertainty there is doubt and
with every doubt there's a bitof certainty, like we can hold
both.
So I think sometimes we thinklike, oh, I will definitely know
a hundred percent for sure.
Like, yes, I'm supposed to be amom, I'm gonna feel that way
every day for the rest of mylife.
yeah, but you're, in my opinion,not that wouldn't be whole

(40:25):
you're gonna have times whereyou doubt it, where you probably
regret it, where, like you,have a wide range of emotions
and vice versa, like if you makethe decision not to have kids,
you might feel totally rooted inthat.
And then there might be dayswhere you, you know, have a
longing for oh, what would ithave been like?
Or a doubt that maybe youshould have or could have or
would have whatever it for.
Oh, what would it have beenlike?
Or a doubt that maybe youshould have or could have or

(40:45):
would have whatever it is.
But I think it's important toacknowledge that the presence of
doubt doesn't mean you've madea wrong choice.
It just means you're a wholeperson and that's another energy
that's moving through and itjust lives as a part of the
experience.
So, rather than freaking out atevery doubt that might arise,

(41:06):
like allowing yourself to sitwith that and be with it and
know that it's just a part ofthe whole and all things that we
do.

Speaker 1 (41:15):
Yeah, holly, that is such sound advice and I couldn't
agree more.
There's such reluctance toembrace this idea that there
will be discomfort and therewill be challenge and there will
be doubt, no matter what wechoose.
And I think part of why some ofus get stuck in the middle with
this decision for so long isthat we want to feel like our

(41:37):
decision is really like clean inthe sense that there's no
uncertainty, there's only ahundred percent knowing.
There's no ambivalence, there'sno grief, there's no
uncertainty, there's only ahundred percent knowing.
There's no ambivalence, there'sno grief, there's no challenge.
And that's just not realisticand I think it's a really
harmful idea.
And I have a lot of people whowill say this um, you know I've
got comment threads of peoplesaying you know, if it's not a

(41:57):
hell yes, it's a no.
If you're not a hundred percentin, it should be a no.
And I really I appreciate theidea of what they're trying to.
I think share here, which isthis is an enormous decision and
there shouldn't be half-assingit, like we should know and
commit okay, specificallybecoming a parent that this is
what I want.
But I don't know about you.
But and I think part of thiscomes down to personality type

(42:18):
as well, but I am someone who isvery kind of pragmatic.
I see both sides.
I'm a diplomatic person.
I see the pros, the cons, thebenefits of virtually every
different scenario in life,which can make me indecisive at
times.
But that's a good thing too,because the fact is, yeah, I
mean any mother, and I mean somemoms, will say, well, no, it's,

(42:40):
I love it all.
I even love the bad stuff.
But I have have many momfriends where, like, I don't
want to be a mom all the time.
Being a mom sucks sometimes,it's hard sometimes, and that
doesn't mean you don't love yourkids, it doesn't mean you've
made the wrong decision andlikewise.
I know sometimes you're a badparent.

Speaker 4 (42:54):
No.

Speaker 1 (42:54):
And I think sometimes within the child-free space as
well.
There, well, if you know you'reunsure, there's a part of you
that wants to have a kid.
You're not really child-free BSthat you know.
That sort of thinking is doinga real disservice because the
fact is, especially for thosepeople who've been in the middle

(43:16):
, if you've been in the middle,if you've been on the fence, if
you've been unsure or ambivalent, there is a part of you that
wants both sides of this.
There is a part of you thatwants to be a mother, there is a
part of you that wants toremain child free, and so I
don't think it's natural for usto expect that that part of us
is just going to disappearbecause we've made a decision.
We can suppress it, we can say,oh no, I'm fine, I don't really

(43:37):
care.
But as an example, you know Ilove babies and I met my.
Well, I met him previously, butsaw my new nephew for the
second time this past summerwhen I was back in Canada, and
like holding this little, likechunky guy who was so cute, oh,
I just like love so much andhaving him in my arms and
dancing around with him andthinking I'm not going to have

(43:58):
this, you know saying to Chrislike, shouldn't we have done
this?
And was it in you knowearnestness?
Was I really thinking we shouldhave done this?
No, but there's that twinge.
Well, that's okay.
It's okay to have a twinge,it's okay to feel like a
moment's beautiful and to wonderwhat would it have been like if
I chose this.
But it doesn't mean I've madethe wrong choice.

Speaker 3 (44:17):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think when we feel thosetwinges of discomfort and
uncertainty, like it's a greatopportunity to mother and like
nurture those parts of ourselveswith compassion, like how can
you hold yourself in that?
And like nurture yourself maybethe way you wish you had been
nurtured as a kid?

(44:37):
And how can you practice thatown mothering within your own
being?

Speaker 1 (44:43):
Yeah, 100%, I totally agree.

Speaker 3 (44:46):
Yeah, so something that I think comes up a lot,
particularly for women in thedecision if they've decided not
to have kids is shame, andthat's something we've touched
on a little bit.
But I think there's a lot ofrhetoric that it's like
unnatural, it's selfish, thatthe list goes on and on, and a

(45:09):
listener shared something reallyinteresting about this that I
want us to tune into around thattopic.

Speaker 5 (45:15):
Throughout my whole lifetime, I've never felt called
to have children, despite otherwomen telling me that that
might change as I get older.
And then, in 2022, I was in atraumatic accident that
basically made it unsafe for mybody to carry children in the
future.
And not long after that, I wastalking to a friend who told me

(45:39):
that she personally does notfeel called to have children in
this lifetime because she couldsense that in a previous
lifetime she had already raisedseveral children and so it
wasn't going to be part of hercurrent lifetime.
And that kind of got methinking, like maybe the reason
why I've never felt called tohave children is because somehow

(46:03):
I've always known that I wasn'tgoing to be able to and it
wasn't going to be a part of mycalling in this lifetime.

Speaker 1 (46:14):
I have goosebumps, wow Right.

Speaker 3 (46:18):
Yeah, I really appreciated that share.
You know, first from theperspective of this person, is
firm in their knowing of like no, it's a no for me, and that is
lovely that they know that.
And then I often think, whenpeople know their answer and
people say like, oh well,that'll change, or have you

(46:40):
really thought about it?
It really like tries toquestion the person's ability to
trust themselves and like haveyou thought about it?
It's kind of like well, ofcourse I've thought about it.
It's you know, it's my lifethat I'm living it.
Just, I think it's reallyunhelpful when people try to
push their perspective on you inresponse to something of like I

(47:01):
know, and then they're saying,well, that'll change, you know,
that's writing off some key partof you, versus it may be
inviting someone to question itor get curious about why they
know they don't want to.

Speaker 1 (47:14):
Yeah, I agree, I think I mean it's almost an
insult and I'm curious if anyonehas ever asked a man, are you
sure what if you change yourmind?
I mean, I'm sure it's happenedbefore, but I really feel like
it's not conscious, but part ofit is this sort of unconscious
idea that women are.
You know, we're too emotional,we're not sure about our

(47:35):
feelings.
That and I think it also tapsinto this idea that there is,
there should, on like abiological level, be this innate
desire to have kids, which youknow is a conversation for a
different day.
But there's actually a lot ofevidence that suggests that of
course we have biologicalrhythms and urges, broadly
speaking.
But the idea that we have abiological clock that is making

(47:58):
us want to have children, wewant to have sex, right, like we
, like this, this is what humanswant, and sex, by, you know,
virtue of doing it enoughgenerally will lead to children
eventually.
But you know, we think thatwomen specifically should want
to have kids and become, becomea mom, and so, yeah, I think it
does unfortunately cause peopleunless they really are confident

(48:20):
.
I think it does unfortunatelycause people unless they really
are confident, and I think it'smaybe a little bit different
once you've come to a clearchoice with yourself.
But I know quite a few women andI work with some of them who
are almost sure they wanna staychild-free and they're really
working to become more confidentin their choice, and a big
piece of that is they don't havethat self-trust because what
they're seeing and hearing fromother people is you will change

(48:41):
your mind.
And of course, there's examplesof people who say well, I
changed my mind.
And I think there are peoplewho maybe were unsure, who
changed their mind and becameparents, but I actually have
heard very, very few instancesof people who had decided, who
changed their mind.
Actually, on the contrary, mostof the research and evidence is
showing that people who make aconscious decision this is not

(49:04):
someone who perhaps was unableto have children and couldn't
really like reckon with thatoutcome, but somebody who says I
don't want this.
The occurrence of regret isactually very, very low,
probably on a level that exists,similar to, maybe less than,
parental regret, which, by theway, is a thing that nobody
wants to talk about, but it doesexist.

Speaker 3 (49:25):
Yeah, thank you for naming that, and I also, just,
you know, can't get over thefact that this person, like now,
physically is unable to havekids and they're, like some part
of of me I think, always knewand that their friend shared.
Like maybe in a past life I didraise a lot of kids and like,
if you prescribe to that conceptin some level, that might take

(49:48):
a little weight off of likemaybe that's just not what I'm
here to do in this life and itkind of lends into that question
of, like, what life paths can Itake in this one?
knowing that it doesn't have tobe one, and you can do it
different ways, and parts of youmay have already done it in
different ways.

Speaker 1 (50:06):
I got to say Holly and I think part of why I got
goosebumps and I'm getting themagain.
My mom calls them angel shivers.
I love that, yeah, isn't thatnice.
Yeah, there's like.
It's like when there'ssomething, there's something
happening.
I'm not fully clear on my senseof, you know, reincarnation,
past lives, future lives, butI've often thought and I truly

(50:26):
feel that in this path, this isnot my life, my life choice or
path, but I do have that beliefand there's a part of me that
feels, whether it's in aparallel life or a past life or
a future life, althoughinteresting, I had someone who
reads the what are they called?
The Kashuk records tell me I'venever had children before,
which I found interesting, andI've lived few past lives, which
I would in some sense feel Idisagree, but that's a story for

(50:48):
a different time.
But this idea that, like, maybethere exists a version of me in
some way, shape or form who haschildren, but it's not in this
lifetime, and I just I, I and Ithink specifically now, with the
work I'm doing, that walkingthis path is about so much more
than not having children.
It's really about encouragingpeople and offering an example

(51:10):
of what it means to live by yourtruth and what it means to
unashamedly be yourself, andthat feels like such an
incredible gift that I'm givingthat people argue that having
children and giving children tothis world is the greatest gift,
and I call bullshit.
I mean there's so many otherways that we can make an impact,

(51:30):
be of service and have purpose.

Speaker 3 (51:32):
Yeah, and I really love what you're saying too,
because to me, me I think likeliving that with that intention
and authenticity and alignmentof your truest self is like
that's what I feel mostconnected to in this life, and
if I were to have a kid, likethat's what I would want to
model for them.

(51:53):
And how can you do that ifthat's not what you're doing for
yourself?
You know.
So, I think, having thatknowing of what intention and
living in alignment is for you,and rooting yourself in that and
that's your compass, that'syour guide through whatever
paths you take yeah, absolutelyand I think another thing people

(52:17):
say a lot around like theshaming of should.
If you don't have kids, like youknow, you're not a good person
in society, or like you're,you're going off the path, which
I don't think it's a bad thing,um at all, but this is
something like Ruby Warringtonalso talks about.
Is, like this birth strike,like the conditions of the world

(52:39):
right now.
Like if we're centering thechild in this conversation, like
let's look at the environment,let's look at the like political
state of the world.
Like in the societal support issociety actually supporting
women to have kids right now?
Like no, so why should we?
And is this planet viable forcontinuing life?
Like that's a question that'songoing.

(52:59):
So I think these are concernsthat we can hold in this
conversation too.
Is like not only how does thisroot in me and my life, but like
in the greater prospect of theworld, like what does it mean to
bring a life into this world?

Speaker 1 (53:16):
Yeah absolutely, and I think we may have that desire
to mother or have a child orchildren, or parent, I should
say, but what we may realize andwhat we may decide to do is
something different.
Just because and I think that'sthat can be a powerful question
to ask ourselves is like if Iwas to become a parent, under
which, which conditions would Ineed to do that?
You know, some people say Iwould like to parent with a.

(53:37):
Under which which conditionswould I need to do that?
You know, some people say Iwould like to parent with a
partner and I'm single and I'mof an age where I don't
necessarily foresee myselffinding a partner, or maybe I
don't want to be in partnershipwith someone, and so for them,
they make the conscious decisionthat, like this is not the path
I'm going to be following inlife, and this plays in super
heavily for a lot of my clientsis like the conditions in which

(53:59):
they would be having a child orchildren.
It doesn't feel supportive andit's a very unfortunate, sad
thing.
And of course, there's a lot oftalk of well, why are people
not having kids?
And this is terrible andpopulations are declining, and I
think what governments and thepowers that be need to be asking
is why?
Why are people not havingchildren?
Is?

Speaker 3 (54:22):
the B you need to be asking is why?
Why are people not havingchildren?
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(55:08):
So, when it comes to like whatare some of the fears about
actually becoming a parent Iwant to share?
Like one of my biggest personalones, which is losing yourself,
I feel like.
Well, knowing myself, I knowthat I have an inclination

(55:28):
towards codependency and puttingso much.
I'm a nurturer.
I love nurturing.
I am more comfortable takingcare of other people and
attuning to their needs than Iam taking care of myself and
naming and honoring my needs,and that is ongoing work that I
have done and you know, now I'mat a point in life where I feel

(55:50):
like pretty rooted in that.
But the thought of having a kid, I'm like I know my
inclinations and I know whenit's something, if it is
something I choose to do, ifit's something I've created in
this life I'm responsible for,I'm gonna like, I think, lean
into that side even further yeahand then do you just lose
yourself in that, and I thinkthere are so many mothers who do

(56:14):
, and their children becometheir lives.
And then not that that's wrong,but for me and what I want, like
I want to be fully Holly andfully me in all circumstances of
life.
You know, kid or no kid.
So that is a big fear in mymind, um, and I feel like I'm

(56:38):
starting to see this newer waveof women in my life who are
having kids and like steppinginto the peak of their career
and like stepping into deeperand deeper parts of themselves,
which isn't something I alwayssaw from the women around me
growing up.

Speaker 1 (56:55):
I think there are so many, you know, really positive.
It sounds like that you have inyour own life and I think that
we are starting to have, interms of what it looks like to
be a mother and speakingwithring type of mothering.

(57:16):
And that's not to put the blameon our moms, it's the way that
things had been set up, but itlooked to be a lot of hard work,
not a lot of fun, and that mostemphasis in terms of
responsibility, work, et cetera,was on our mothers, at least in
you know, traditional sort ofthe nuclear households, if you
will.
And there you know there aremuch.

(57:38):
There there are new immensepressures on women that I think
there is also this thing of likeI'm going to have my own
identity, I'm going to have myown life, I'm going to grow my
career or whatever, and I'mgoing to be the super mom.
And the fact is is likestriking that balance from
everything I hear, is immenselychallenging.
But I think for you, I meanhaving examples of women who've
done that and really you know,having conversations with them

(58:02):
and like watching what you'reseeing and how that sort of how
that looks to you've ever beenand you're like you're the most
in and of yourself and that, howimportant it is to have your
own identity is to think aboutlike, what makes you you, what

(58:25):
make when you feel most in andof yourself?
Uh, the USU, as I talk to myclients about when you feel like
the USU, what are you doing?
Who are you being, what areyour needs, what do you require,
what are those non-negotiablesyou have in your life?
And then seeing if you can sortof envision a path of
motherhood and also working withyour partner, if you're in a
relationship to look at, knowingit's not going to be perfect,

(58:48):
knowing that you're probablygoing to get like derailed at
some point, as we, as we allwill but, to say, like what are
those things that I'm going toneed, what are those sort of
conditions, so to speak, to beable to do motherhood in a way
that allows me to still staywithin who I am as an individual
?

Speaker 3 (59:04):
I think that can be powerful.
Yeah, that's really good advice.
Thank you, yeah, so we have onefinal listener to hear from,
and this is someone who did havekids and they shared their
decision-making process, whichis so thoughtful that I think
everyone needs to hear.
So we are going to hear fromour next listener.

Speaker 7 (59:28):
I was married for at least five years before we
really started talking seriouslyabout having kids, and I think
we'd been married almost 10 when, when our kids came along um,
so it's definitely somethingthat we thought a lot about and
talked a lot about.
Um, around around the time Iturned 30 probably, I really

(59:51):
started to feel like abiological readiness we'll call
it and a deep curiosity aboutpregnancy and kind of like, okay
, this would be fun, I'm reallycurious to see, like what this
is like in my body.
My husband really is great aboutmaking decisions with a lot of
intention and so when we firststarted talking about, hey, we

(01:00:12):
might be ready, you know, thereare the logistical things Do we
have enough space in our house,can we afford child care but he
asked for six months to reallythink about the decision and
encouraged us to haveconversations about why would we
have kids, beyond just the sortof societal norms and

(01:00:34):
expectations that having kidsmakes you a good, successful
couple or or a good, successfulwoman in some way and to try to
really center the child in thatlike not having children as some
extension of ourself or way tofulfill our own desires or unmet

(01:00:56):
needs own desires or unmetneeds, but to really think about
what it means to parent anotherhuman in the world, to bring
another human being into thiscrazy world.
With my second daughter therewere some not complications
she's been fine anddevelopmentally normal but

(01:01:16):
question marks that came up inmy pregnancy in the 20-week
ultrasound that really forced meto confront would I have what
it takes to parent a specialneeds child?
And at that time revealed likeyeah, that's part of what he
spent those six months thinkingabout, like you don't just get

(01:01:37):
to assume that you're going tohave a perfectly healthy baby.
And I think that just thinkingabout that and sitting with that
and asking myself how I wouldhandle that was a really
important part of that processthat I'll be.
I didn't really think aboutthose things until after I was
already pregnant, but I guessthe other thing I would say is

(01:02:00):
is really thinking about whatbringing another human in the
world and parenting that humanmeans.
It has meant for me a dramaticreorganization of my life and my
priorities, and I remembervividly the morning after my
first daughter was born,realizing that, like now, there
was a whole other being to carefor that.
For nine months of my pregnancy, taking care of my baby had

(01:02:23):
just been taking care of myself,making sure I was eating well
and sleeping enough, and thatwas how I took care of my baby.
And now I still had to takecare of myself in my postpartum
recovery and there was a babywith lots of needs to take care
of.
And as someone who exclusivelybreastfed, particularly the

(01:02:45):
first nine months, if not year,of each of my daughter's lives,
I have very fuzzy memories of.
Because so much of your physicalenergy and being is going into
producing milk and feedinganother human and growing
another human.
And it is an amazing thing and Ireally enjoyed, but it it took

(01:03:08):
a lot out of my body and out ofmy mental energy and since my
youngest turned two I've feltthe capacity to kind of pop my
head out of the ground and lookaround and think, okay, what
does it now mean to be myselfand be a mother?

(01:03:28):
Really just sitting with thatreality of what parenting does
to your whole self, to yourwhole being, to your priorities,
to your attention, to your time, is something worth considering
before you decide to have kids.
Oh, and one more thought I wantto add.

(01:03:50):
But I saw something I thoughtwas worth sharing around, like
it's not about having anotherbaby because it can seem fun to
have another baby, they're sosweet, but that stage goes
really really fast and the thebetter question is sort of are
you ready to parent anotherhuman for life?
So I thought that was a helpfulperspective to not focus so

(01:04:13):
much on the baby phase but thebroader picture of parenting
over a lifetime.

Speaker 3 (01:04:19):
Wow I don't think that right.

Speaker 1 (01:04:22):
You go.
No, I was going to say sorry, Idon't think I have anything I
could possibly add to that.
I just want to commend thisperson on having so much
forethought and continuing toreally look at this process of
being and becoming a parent.
And you know the question sheasked about, like what does it

(01:04:42):
mean now that my child's a bitolder, and what does it mean for
my own identity?
I just all I can think is thatif every parent could approach
having children in this way,what a beautiful world we would
live in.

Speaker 3 (01:04:57):
Yeah, definitely, and I think, for people listening,
if you're on the fence, ifyou're thinking about it or
maybe you are a new parent justlistening to those questions and
hearing those words I think area really grounding little like
you were talking about beforefor our last listener a way to
give you a peek into a window ofwhat more of that reality is

(01:05:18):
like and ways we can really movethrough it, steeped in
intention.

Speaker 1 (01:05:22):
Yeah, yeah, and I think you know I want to
highlight as well when she saidlike how and I'm paraphrasing
her words but just howeverything changes and I think
you know it does require someintention and forethought.
You know, as I encouraged youto do, to really think about,
okay, who am I and what do Ineed?
But at the end of the day,things are going to change

(01:05:43):
dramatically and there will bechallenges in order to really
like uphold those things in yourlife that are important and to
act intentionally and to actmindfully and it's something I
hear time and again from parentsis just how much even knowing
it would be hard, just howchallenging it would be and, of
course, how beautiful andrewarding and fulfilling it is

(01:06:03):
as well.
But I think people kind ofunderestimate, as she said, you
know, not just taking care of me, but now I've got to take care
of me and this child, this otherbeing that's.
It's all consuming in many ways.

Speaker 3 (01:06:16):
Yeah, absolutely.
And that last bit about thatquestion of like don't ask
yourself if you want to have ababy, like you were sharing,
like dancing with your niece ornephew, like feeling like, oh,
this is lovely, like that's ashort little window Beyond that,
like, do you want to parent ahuman for a lifetime?

(01:06:37):
And that's the real question.
We're sitting with Kelty.
Thank you so much for your timetoday.
Before you go, I want to see ifyou have a bit of advice for
anyone who's listening today,who's maybe living in both
places.
They're on the fence andthey're not sure.
Part of them wants to have kid,parts of them doesn't.

(01:06:59):
How can they live in bothplaces?
What is one bit of advice?
I know this episode has lots ofthem, but what's one small
thing listeners who are in thatin-between space do today to
support themselves where they'reat?

Speaker 1 (01:07:16):
I think, a question we can ask ourselves and this
requires a bit of an imaginationbut to think about if there
were no extraneous factors andspecifically, people, as far as
you know, whether it's your ownparents, whether it's your
partner, whether it's yourfriends, if you can ask yourself
if no one else had any bearingor influence on this decision.
They didn't care one way or theother, they weren't part of it.
In any bearing or influence onthis decision, they didn't care

(01:07:39):
one way or the other, theyweren't part of it in any way,
shape or form.
What would I want?
It can be quite illuminating,because we so often are really
kind of mixed up in what we'rehearing.
You know, oh, my mom wouldreally love to be a grandma and
she'd be such a great grandmaand my partner isn't so keen.
They're really hesitant and wealso tend to fast forward to

(01:08:02):
actually taking action, to likewhat it would mean to actually
then have a child, let's say,and we think about all of the
considerations that we do needto make.
You know, am I in a positionfinancially, Am I in a position
mentally, emotionally, Is myrelationship in a good place, to
be having a child?
And those are super importantquestions to ask, but I think

(01:08:23):
first and foremost, we need tolook at do I have the desire to
do this, and so it can be ahelpful starting place, and I
would even say, if somebody'sreally in the thick of making
this decision, to commityourself to not asking other
people for their inputs or eventabling this conversation with
them for a period of time,Because all of us believe that

(01:08:46):
the choice we have made is thatyou know best right choice, or
at least for ourselves.
So you know, I always am happywhen I hear moms say, for
example, hey, it's great for me,but it doesn't mean it's great
for you, and vice versa.
When I hear child free peoplesay, for example, hey, it's
great for me, but it doesn'tmean it's great for you, and
vice versa.
When I hear child free peoplesay parenthood is a wonderful
path for many people, because itis.
But we at the same time havethis idea that when somebody

(01:09:07):
brings up the topic of kids orno kids that we want to impart
all the reasons we think thatour choice is a great one, that
can really kind of mess with ourheads and make it very
difficult for us to discern whatwe want.
And one thing we didn't talkabout in huge detail, but where
it concerns our partners that wewould potentially parent with.
I do think there are important,really important conversations

(01:09:28):
to be had there.
But I also think that first andforemost, we want to get
connected with what our owndesires are, or lack of desire,
or to even frame, like I ask myclients often, if you could
assign a percentage between whatpercentage of you is going
towards that child-free pathversus what percentage of you
would like to be a parent.
That can at least help usfigure out, in a very

(01:09:50):
unscientific way, where we're at.
So if we say I'm sitting, youknow, 90% in favor of staying
child-free versus 10% kids, thatcan help us get a little bit
more clarity in terms of wherewe're at and where we may be
leaning.

Speaker 3 (01:10:03):
I love that percentage because that kind of
gives us a little visual to seethat wholeness in a little bit
more organized way.
Totally, kelty.
Thank you so much for thisconversation and for the work
that you are doing to helppeople live their fullest, most
authentic lives.
Um, do you mind sharing a bithow people can work with you and

(01:10:27):
stay connected with you, andI'll be sure that all of your
links are in the show notes.

Speaker 1 (01:10:30):
Yeah, definitely.
Well, the name of my brand iskids or child free Uh, so my web
domain is kids or child freecom, and Instagram is also a really
great place to find me.
I do have a number of freeresources.
I have my own podcast, which isonly about five, six weeks old,
called the kids are childfreepodcast, where I'm actually
hosting conversations with bothparents as well as people who've

(01:10:53):
chosen not to have parents, aswell as some people who are
still in this middle ground, tohave really honest conversations
about how people made their owndecisions and some of the
challenges, as well as some ofthe you know sort of beautiful
parts that have come up alongthat choice and that path.
So those can be really greatstarting points as far as you
know, getting kind of connectedwith my community and the

(01:11:15):
resources I offer.
And second to that, I do offer aworkshop, which I would
actually say is probably yourbest next step.
If you say like, okay, I'mundecided, how can I get some
support with that?
And these workshops I hostabout once a month.
They're $45.
There's a group of like-minded,typically women although I have

(01:11:36):
had a couple of men join theworkshops who are going to be
led through some differentexercises and conversations to
help you better connect withwhat path might be right for you
.
So that can be a good startingpoint.
But all my other offers, myfree resources, et cetera, you
can find on kidsarechildfreecom.

Speaker 3 (01:11:53):
Awesome.
Thank you so much and be sureto check the link in the show
notes for all of Kelty'sinformation, to work with her
and learn more.

Speaker 1 (01:12:02):
Well, thank you so much, Holly, and I also want to
thank all of the fantasticguests who left, all of their
beautiful words and questions,et cetera.

Speaker 3 (01:12:09):
So thank, you for that.
Yes, thank you.
I just want to share a reviewthat a listener left, and I want
to invite you to leave a reviewtoo, because it's like
whispering to the podcastalgorithm gods when you leave a
review and it helps more peoplefind the podcast.

(01:12:30):
So if you haven't already doneso, you should definitely give
this podcast a five-star reviewwrite, review in and share an
episode you love, and now youget to hear this really sweet
review.
The title is Soothing Look intoMany Topics on Self-Acceptance
and Improvement.
Couldn't love this podcastanymore.
There are so many episodes ontopics I would have never

(01:12:53):
considered looking into.
But then I listen and I have somany light bulb moments.
The host, holly Holly, feelslike she really believes in all
of her listeners and theirability to start loving their
whole selves and allowthemselves compassion when
struggling with so many of thesehard topics.
So happy I found this and sograteful for what it adds to my

(01:13:14):
life.
Thank you so much.
This review actually made metear up.
I really do believe in each andevery one of you and I'm really
grateful for you listening andfor this review.

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