November 25, 2021 • 39 mins
Baratunde connects with Gen-Z author and climate activist Jamie Margolin, to see how this next generation is using tech to save the planet. He was surprised more than once by this 19-year-old’s perspective. She is the founder of This Is Zero Hour, an intersectional movement of young people fighting for a livable planet and co-organizer of the 2018 Youth Climate March.
Guest: Jamie Margolin
Bio: 19-year-old Colombian-American organizer, activist, author, public speaker, and film & tv student.
Online: Jamie’s book, Youth To Power, and her Twitter and Instagram; Zero Hour on Instagram
Go to howtocitizen.com for transcripts, our email newsletter, and your citizen practice.
ACTIONS
- PERSONALLY REFLECT
What do technology and Earth mean to you?
Jamie helped us conceive of technology in a different, more elemental way. When you think of technology, what do you think of? When you think of nature, what do you think of? Do you ever think of the same thing in answer to both questions?
- BECOME INFORMED
Learn about climate threats and opportunities.
For better climate news, check out CoveringClimateNow.org. On social media, follow groups like This Is Zero Hour and Sunrise Movement. For something more local, search online for climate change and your neighborhood or town. Try a search for climate action in the same way. I did and discovered regional climate action plans, zero waste retailers, and forecasts about climate change specific to where I live. I also highly recommend the book All We Can Save. It's an anthology of essays by women representing all the people we’ve ignored on climate and filled with solutions and inspiration. Find it in our show’s online bookshop.
- PUBLICLY PARTICIPATE
Take collective climate action of some kind
Those local searches I recommended might lead you to businesses you can support or groups you can join. I recommend the Citizens Climate Lobby as a possible place to start. An even more basic step is to take a look at your own energy use. I went through my electricity bill closely and saw an option to choose renewable energy sources, and signed up. Boom! Then talk about it. Are you composting, put that online? Trying to understand where your energy comes from? Take it to the socials! Let’s use tech to make climate action mainstream.
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Yeah, welcome to How to Citizen with Baritune Day, a
podcast that reimagine citizen as a verb, not a legal status.
This season is all about tech and how it can
bring us together instead of tearing us apart. We're bringing
you the people using technology for so much more than
revenue and user growth. They're using it to help us citizen.
(00:29):
Can you take me to the scene of the march itself? Yes,
exterior daytime, American Capital. A group of young people are standing,
how the stage set up with a big banner and
a bunch of signs, flags and all sorts of things, banners, everything.
(00:53):
You're in the power and I feel its energy and
it's incredible. So keep it up, okay. Rallying for the
climate and getting ready for the marchatives the priority for you.
And it just absolutely starts pouring. Just torrential downpour. It
(01:13):
was raining so hard. Like I'm not talking like oh
like it drizzled, I'm talking torrential downpour. Your phone vibrates
saying flash flood alert, not safe to be outside. And
I remember crying and being really upset throughout the whole
thing of that, just like, oh no, it's not like
a sunny beautiful day like I wanted it to be.
(01:37):
Why did it have to rain? We worked so hard
for this day, for a whole year and everything like that.
A lot of the water protectors from Standing Rock were
there that day. They came all the way from different
reservations to to come be at the march, and Seby
Medina Tayak, who is an Indigenous climate activist, kept emphasizing,
(01:59):
like utter is life, there's nothing inherently wrong with it. Raining,
water soaked like wet rats, just dripping like we had
all just been through a very unforgiving shower, and the
paint from some of our signs was like just it dripped,
like it literally bled into the canvas of one of
(02:21):
our banners. But we still marched, we still rallied. One
of the rally leaders yelled out the rain brings out
the real ones, and so it was just a bunch
of like the real ones, just in it together, finishing
this march with rain ponchos, trying to stay warm, and
it was just this emotional sense of solidarity and family.
(02:45):
The pictures from that day it's just us like crusading
against the storm, and you can see them just look
up zero our Youth Climate March. The next day in
the New York Times. We had a full spread in
the Sunday Times about the work that we were doing,
and we still made an impact, act like we were
making a difference. I like to think that Mother Earth
(03:08):
was also weeping out of appreciation, you know, for you
taking a stand, So maybe you think about it that
way as well. She weeped in a temperature that was
a little colder than preferred. If I appreciate it, and
I love her sentiment. But if the next time she
weeps out of appreciation for an action that I do outdoors,
if it could not make me shiver, that would be amazing.
(03:30):
I'll put in a word. You put in a word.
I'm grateful for her, But I would have just I
was very cold. Jamie mark Goland is a nineteen year
old global leader in the fight against climate change. She
co founded Zero Hour, a youth led movement of activists
who are organizing grassroots efforts for environmental issues. Jamie wears
(03:52):
a ton of hats as an organizer, activist, author, and
fellow podcaster. The future of the planet is tied to
Jamie's future. She and so many young people like herself
are demanding action from those who currently hold power. Her
book Used to Power gives people of all ages a
guide book to starting a movement. In that book, Jamie
(04:14):
details how to organize, fundraise, and communicate with people across
the globe effectively. I care a lot about the climate
crisis because I like having a livable planet, and I
understand how urgent it is. I'd like to believe that
tech can help us, but I just don't know so
when it comes to climate change, is technology helping or
(04:37):
making the situation worse? I wanted to hear from someone
on the ground, fighting for the planet, fighting for us,
a person who was born in the age of smartphones
and social media, who's got an intimate relationship with tech.
In other words, Jamie, is tech empowering a whole generation
to get involved? If so, I wanted to find out how,
(05:00):
what methods are they using, and what does it take
to host the Youth Climate March at the age of sixteen.
Good to see you, Hello, Hello, it is so good
to see you too. Thank you for making the time.
I know you're busy trying to help save our only
home planet, So just appreciation right off top for which you.
(05:22):
Thank you thank you so much. I appreciate it. Can
you say your full name, introduce yourself and what it
is you do. Yeah, hello everyone. My name is Jamie,
said I Margolin. I'm nineteen years old. I'm a climate
justice organizer film student at n y U. I'm a
plaintiff on the Youth Peak of lawsuits doing the State
of Washington for continuing to worsen the climate crisis. Um,
(05:44):
and that lawsuit is still going on. And I'm the
co founder of an international youth climate justice organization called
Zero Hour, author of a book called Youth to Power
Your Voice and How to Use It, which is a
guide to being a young organizer for any cause for
anyone who wants to get involved. I'm also a filmmaker
and a screenwriter and just released the pilot of a
show that I wrote and directed and acted in called
(06:07):
Art Majors about queer teens in college. And I am
also the host of a podcast called Lavender You, which
is a queer media analysis podcast. So yeah, um, and
I'm a sophomore in college. Jamie, UM, why aren't you
doing more with your life? You're busy. I know what
(06:32):
busy is. So I say this as a busy person.
You're busy. It's good, good for good for you. We're
in this project this whole season talking about tech and
how it can help us be active citizens as supposed
to undermine that. And I really wanted to talk to
you about tech and activism and it was very natural
because I met you because of a tech platform exactly.
(06:54):
Let's check our memories here, as I recall, you hit
me up on a Twitter d M in the summer
and you're like, would you be willing to help out?
We're doing like a climate youth march and we can
use your help. And I was like, yeah, I'm down cool,
what do you need? And then I just got hit
(07:17):
with like zoom invites and text messages. I was on
a conference call. People were assigning me things to do,
and I remember specifically you had a message that was
because I had access to media, I was going on
cable news fairly frequently, and you're like, all these people
talking about the climate crisis, they're not going to be
subject to it the way my generation is. They need
(07:40):
to have young people on talking about the climate crisis.
And you said, so, what I need you to do
is I need you to introduce me to bookers at
the Daily Show at MSNBC CNN, and I jumped on
a zoom. I was on the Amtrak train going probably
between New York and d C. And I was on
(08:00):
this zoom with a Google spreadsheet open agree like, I'll
get you to m R Melbourne and I'll try with
Brian Williams said, like we had divided this list. There
were like five of you and a couple of old
people like me, and it was so bold and so beautiful.
Is that how you remember? Um? Okay, I'm a lot
(08:21):
more of a subtle person now as a nineteen year
old than the way I approached people as a sixteen
year old, where I was like do thing for me, please,
Oh yes, you've matured and aged. And the funny thing is, okay,
this is gonna sound terrible. But I actually don't even
(08:41):
remember that conversation because I had like around that time
I did that to like I was just it wasn't
I think it might have stood out to you because
you were like, what the hell is this? But like
I was just on so many calls and just trying
to get so many people to like mobilize, and I
was a ball of stress because I was like this
smart has to change everything. I was just so in
(09:05):
action mode that I was annoying like that on many
a call. I have had moments in my life Where'm
in this fugue state and I don't remember stuff either,
So I'm not really taken it personally, but it is
amusing to me, and I will hold this over your
head for the rest of our lives. Um. But I
also it's complimentary. You know, you, in my view, were
(09:28):
right to be fired up. You were right to demand
that there are too many people on television talking about
this thing that I don't know what they're talking about,
and the people closer to the problem should be closer
to talking about these solutions. And I love you know
what zero hours about. We'll get into that. So I
don't take it as like, oh, Jamie was that annoying
kid they dragged me into a zoom. Jamie was this
(09:49):
right person who is enlisting me to help a just cause.
I the fact that, like most people, I guess know
me from what I've done three years ago, and I'm
such a vastlet of person now is such a weird
disconnect because I'm like I was a child and I
still am young, But there is a lot that happens
and a lot of maturing and growing up that I've
had to do, just in my personal life and in
(10:10):
life in general, to be frank which and sincere, I
was sixteen, and I was very different when I was nineteen,
and I'm certainly different at forty four. Like we're all
always changing. So I'm giving you a hard time, but
it's not it's not real. So you've done something else
that that a lot of us haven't done. You've testified
before Congress back in people call my generation generation Z
(10:31):
as if we have the last generation, but we're not.
We're refusing to be the last letter of the alphabet.
What were you saying to these federal elected officials and
what's your take on the federal government response to this crisis. Well,
what I was saying to them is basically that it's
very rare that they hear from like a young social
justice leader, and it's a lot more often that they
(10:52):
hear from fossil fuel lobbyists. And so I said, like
for a couple of minutes that you're listening to me
right now, the vast majority of the time with the
people in your years are the ones who are you
know funding our destruction? I talked about the Pacific Northwest,
where I'm from. I've talked about just all the frustration
that I've been feeling. I broke down a lot of
the myths that they kept perpetuating, like we can't take
(11:13):
action because China isn't and just all of these ridiculous
arguments that they were making. I told them about the science.
I told them that we have no more time to act.
That how can they look their children in the eye
and tell them that they didn't do everything they could
to save their lives and futures before it's too late. Yeah,
do you think anybody heard you? I know that a
lot of people in the public heard me, Like it
(11:34):
went semi viral and a lot of people were inspired
by it. And we're complimenting. But the thing is, like,
I think the people that were amplifying it were people
that already supported my message. Anyway, it was covered by
Bright part and like a lot of conservative media, and
it was on Fox News. Another demand of the Youth
Climate Strike Group is what they're calling quote comprehensive climate
(11:55):
change education. They wanted for children aged five to four
to five years old. Why so young. In other words,
brainwashing is easier when they're little. And they were reporting
on it satirically, but it was still coverage from people
who we're hearing my message anyway. It's funny because their
headlines would be mocking, like radical climate activists says climate
(12:17):
change is a racist issue, and I'm like correct and
they say it like it's a bad thing. And you
made Fox News stay climate change. You made Fox newsake
and I made them stay climate change. I mean, like,
even if they're making fun of me, I did my
part when you set up this contrast of who are
politicians listened to? Overwhelmingly more time spent with fossil fuel
(12:38):
executives than with the future generations inheriting this world. I
wonder a lot of us see climate and the climate crisis.
We frame it in terms of fossil fuels and like
industrial output things since the industrial revolution. You have a
broader view, in a slightly different view of just how
to define this crisis? How do you define it? Well?
(13:00):
I define the climate crisis as the grand culmination of
all of our societal evils come together in one big, bad,
final video game boss. That's how I view it, you know,
I view it as a combination of the consequences of colonialism, racism, patriarchy,
(13:22):
capitalism on steroids, everything combined into this monster that is
us causing our own destruction. I mean, we know literally
where climate change came from the Industrial revolution in greenhouse
gas emissions. If you go back further, how did we
get to a society that was so inherently extracted and
you go back to colonialism and the triangle trade and
(13:43):
the genocide of indigenous people. In that way of life
and existing with the earth as opposed to the European
colonial way of existing and extracting from the earth, and
that way of moving through the world, of not moving
through it in collaboration or in harmony, but moving through
it in competition and in green is the root of
how we're in this. And so when people are like,
(14:05):
stop talking about gender, stop talking about race, we need
to focus on climate, or this is about the environment,
they're not understanding that we exist in the environment. So
our issues are inherently intertwined, like we are not separate
from it. We're not separate from the oxygen we breathe,
because without it we would be too dead to be
having this conversation. You're very good, Jamie would very good.
(14:27):
When we come back, Jamie shares the tension of using
tech and its attempts to use her Yeah, when you
were first starting out, what did you think it would
take to build a social movement around climate change? And
what did it end up actually taking? It ended up
(14:50):
taking what I thought it would take. I wasn't under
the fantasy that I would post one thing on Instagram
and it would magically blow up virally and then everything
would come together and it would be perfect and I
would save the world. Yea, We're done. That's not how
activism works. No, No, it's not what took me by surprise,
and which shouldn't have as the amount of people, skills
and collaboration that it would need. I am an only child,
(15:13):
grew up without a pet, and so I've just been
like kind of that nerdy girl who was I mean,
I had friends and things, but I was always kind
of learned to entertain myself do projects by myself. In
my head, I was like, how hard is managing a
massive group of very opinionated teenagers from all around the
country going to be? It will be easy. I was
worried about the work, but I didn't think about management
(15:37):
and team building. I hated group projects at school. This
was the ultimate group project that I cared so deeply about,
and at some point it got too big to be
in my own control, and I didn't expect. You know,
when your child outgrows you and it's no longer even
about you, And that was fine. The goal was never
referred to be about me. I'm glad when I hear like,
(15:57):
people recognize your are but they have no idea who
I am, And I'm like, that's perfect. But it was
both thrilling and also scary because I had to let
go because it was like this was no longer my
brain child, my passion, like my dream. It now meant
something to other people, and so I suddenly felt like
I had transferred a dream onto others and now they
(16:17):
were invested in. So I didn't expect the pressure of
feeling responsible for not letting everyone down to Yeah, breakdown
how you approach using technology to support your activism. Yeah,
And there's a whole chapter in Youth to Power that's
all about digital organizing and how to use social media
to your advantage while not letting it use you. And
(16:39):
the main things that I talked about were a consolidated
message things like you know, coming up with a campaign
hashtag and accounts and graphics and concise messaging links, making
sure that things are very easy for people. You know,
how to have a coordinated like press kit. Let's say
you're promoting an action. When zero hour was promoting our
(17:00):
youth climate marches, for example, we had specific graphics that
are designer na the ANASA made, as well as some
hashtags and pre written out captions that we would send
to people to then post online to get more people
to sign up and register for this event. And we
were using tool kits, which is just like a Google
Drive with all of the things compiled. Also like dm
(17:22):
NG people, as I did to you, maybe a little annoying,
but also like I knew what I was doing and
I had a real vision. So people listen to me,
but maybe don't be like as annoying as I was
when I was sixteen. When you think about the platforms
you rely on, what do you use the most, What
do you rely on the most In terms of internal organizing,
Google Drive is like the thing like that is like
(17:44):
the holy grail of all things, whether I'm filmmaking or
starting an organization, or writing a book. So if you
aren't in on the Google drive magic, Google doesn't need
me yet. I don't need to advertise for them. I
don't know why. I like, like we check out Google.
There are a small business that could really use your help. No,
(18:05):
what I mean is that's the biggest internal tool. Also Slack.
People use slack a lot. I'm using the word tool
too much, but it is a great tool. How does
your hour continue to use tech to organize and stay relevant?
And what are y'all using a fundraise? Is there anything
that feels novel about how you've deployed tech or communicated
with each other or built coalitions because of what tech
(18:28):
is enabled that maybe some other era might not have
afforded you. Yeah, I mean crowdfunding is huge go fund
me and action network and like crowdfunding sites or also
like crowd petition gathering sites or like email gathering platforms,
eat mailing servers, ways to disseminate information on a mass level,
and ways to crowd fund. It's something that people before
(18:51):
us didn't have access to where I can just open
up a website, put together a thing like hey, help
us raise money for this or come to this event,
put in the location that makes things a lot more
are accessible. Do you struggle at all with the tech
that you depend on, given how so much of it
isn't designed with our collective best interest in mind? Absolutely.
(19:13):
Social media gives me a lot of anxiety because it's
very overstimulating to know every single bad event in the
world happening at all times. That's why there's the term
doom scrolling. And it's also discouraging, you know, when you
see creators who you admire being censored or punished for
simply posting queer content or other content that you know
(19:33):
a lot of the algorithms consider violating guidelines or whatever.
I've used to feel the pressure to weigh in about
everything all of the time, like, oh, like I need
to comment about all the things. And then I'm like,
why do I need to comment on all of the things.
Bo Burnham had a great special called Inside where he's like,
can any one person in one place shut up about
(19:56):
one thing for one hour? Please? And I resonated with
that because I'm like, there's just so much noise. Yeah,
And then I'm like this is fake and designed to
make me get addicted. It has benefits, and I will
use it for those but I'm going to create a
healthy boundary so that the number of likes does not
affect how I feel about it at all. It's just like, well,
the algorithm didn't like that whatever, you know, Instead of
(20:19):
caring like it wants us to and using social media
as a tool and not letting it use me, because
for a while I was letting it use me. With organizing,
the technical element of organizing being so much simpler with
modern technology than it was fifty years ago, do you
(20:40):
think that shifts your available use of energy away from
the tool to the organizing itself. Yeah, definitely. I just
feel like, I mean, the myth of technology is that
it makes it so we don't have to work anymore,
and it's it does everything for us. My dad was
telling me that back the invention of like the computer,
in different things, like people who are like, wow, it's
(21:01):
going to be so revolutionary, Everyone's going to have so
much more time in their day. I don't think that's true.
I think we're more busy, stressed, burnt out, and unrested
than ever. So clearly access to digital organizing tools isn't
freeing us up to like do other things. It's precarious
tools to be using, so you will find yourself. I
(21:22):
will do this still where I'm like, okay, I need
to DM someone about this event or something like that,
something business related. I go into my Instagram, Okay, I
need to send a message. I see something. Something pops up.
Two hours later, I'm like, what, how am I here?
And what was I supposed to do? So I don't
know how time saving it is. Yeah, well here's a
(21:44):
here's a shift. Someone listening to this. I heard what
you said about how we should consider the climate crisis.
They're moved, they're motivated. What do you want them to do? Yeah?
I think can help in that. Like social media, you know,
it has its downsides, just like everything, and you know,
(22:06):
people use and abuse it just like they do with
any other tool that gets turned into a weapon when
in the wrong hands or leveraged incorrectly. It's just like anything.
It's just like a knife can be something violent, or
it can be used to cut, you know, some carrots
for a really great soup. Yes, and so for those
(22:29):
of you who want to use it as a useful tool,
then I really encourage you to find organizations in your area.
You have like ten dollars five dollars a month to spare.
Find a local grassroots organization online and sign up to
help support them. For a grassroots organization, having that reliable
income can be really helpful. Use social media for good.
(22:49):
Cur at your feed to be following organizations like Zero
Hour or the International Indigenous Youth Council or UNAS or
a bunch of other like great accounts to follow. Do
you have climate anxiety? Are you feeling hopeless? Is so?
Stick around? I promise we've got some uplift and wisdom
(23:09):
from Jamie. On the other side, we are used to
conceiving of you know. I read the I p c
c's latest you know report. It's overwhelming, It's it's unequivocal.
(23:32):
It was a word that comes across a few times there.
And I'm part of a generation and certainly those before
me that can be pretty cynical. Get when I feel
the energy of youth climate activists and climate justice folks,
there's optimism there. Yeah, where is that optimism coming from?
(23:54):
And what do you say to people who think this
is just too big? We've proven unworthy this far? Why
would be changed now? I mean, first of all, let's
not pretend like young people are all like, yeah, we're
so enthusiastic and optimistic. There is a huge levels of
climate anxiety, and honestly, at this point, I call it
climate depression because anxiety implies fearing for something in the
(24:16):
future that hasn't happened yet, versus depression is the sadness
of it, in the grief of the environmental destruction that
is already happening, and that is so overwhelming, and so
for me it has been very difficult to like I
I feel. I know this sounds cheesy and people might
(24:36):
be like, shut up, Jamie, but sometimes I will get
to a moment where I feel the pain of just
like the earth and the people and everything that's suffering,
and it's overwhelming, and I feel genuinely heartbroken and like
this deep grief. While I can like go on a
podcast and talk about it and go to a protest
and organize, there's only a certain level to which I
(24:57):
can affect it. Because I'm one little human out of
aliens on this planet. I feel that, and I feel that,
But I think I guess the reason why we're still
in this is because giving up is not an option.
I just feel like it's the nature of nature to
want to survive. Plants always try to grow, you know,
in weird places where they're not supposed to. You'll see
(25:19):
like bugs and weird animals and places where you think,
how is anything alive? It's life's instinct to keep having
hope in itself, and so I think that's where it
comes from at this point, honestly, with this level of
climate disaster, and just sometimes I do feel like I'm
(25:40):
at Rome right before the fall, and I'm like, I'm
learning how to integrate into Roman society when it's collapsing.
This is really weird. I feel that way a lot.
But then I'm also like, what other choice do I have?
I hear you, fellow Roman, So so let me ask
you this. Do you think technology is helping or is
it during the climate crisis. My main thing with technology
(26:03):
and the climate crisis is that I feel like people
act as if technology is somehow a replacement for social
justice or climate justice or dismantling what has to go.
And I think that there's a danger in putting too
much faith in innovating our way out of this, or
we'll just check our way out of this. We'll build
(26:26):
the spaceship and we'll do this. Like, I feel like
there also has to be some respect for the natural technologies.
Technology is also the ancient technologies of our planet, of
the ecosystems of trees. I feel like those are technologies
that we have to respect to. And when we get
so caught up in trying to hate generalizing, but it's
(26:47):
it's tech bros. You know, the tech bro type where
they're just like, I know, I definitely know who you're
talking about. Oh man, Like the climate crisis, it's it'll
be totally fine. We'll like just g o engineer everything,
and then I have the spaceship to go to Mars
and we'll just like suck in all the carbon with
my fancy new gadget. And it's like, that's not the
(27:08):
real root solution that needs to happen. Technology does help us,
solar panels, digital organizing tools, everything. The technology we're using
to have this conversation right now awesome, But we can't
act like it's a replacement for the real change that
has to happen. How did you come to have this
expanded definition of technology. I think it was over time.
(27:31):
I mean, part of it is like my Ahuila, you know,
she always would have herbal remedies and curism. We would
call her doctoral Lucilla, even though she's not a doctor.
She didn't even receive any sort of education. She grew
up as a campasina in rural part of Colombia. But
she had the ancient knowledge from her ancestors, from her mom,
(27:52):
from her siblings, of you know what foods and plants
and things are good for you and help with certain things.
And that is a wisdom, a sort of ancient knowledge.
But I just kind of have always understood that there's
more too, Like there's other things to respect, other than
just what men and lab coats say. Like I'm a
(28:14):
very scientific person. I'm not. I don't I believe in science,
but I just mean that this is also science too.
I also think of them as like technologies of harnessing
like the power of ourselves and the planet. Like people
talk about sometimes meditation is like an ancient technology, and
like I've been trying to meditate regularly and tap into
(28:37):
that beautiful that's really that's really helpful. It's a dope perspective.
I think it adds balance to our interpretation of technology
and of ourselves, and in a moment when we're out
of balance, you know, see climate crisis. We could expand
our definition of technology to to come back to balance
(29:00):
by waiting a bit more respect for some of these
ancient technologies you just talked about. We call this show
how to Citizen. We believe in interpreting this word not
as a legal noun weapon, but rather as a verb.
I mean, we do stuff. When you think of the
word citizen as a verb, what does it mean to you?
(29:21):
I think that being a good citizen is is also
about knowing when to question authority in the right way.
We are here at the first hour you mad in
our nation's history. However, you all around the world have
been working for a lot longer than this, especially you
have color indigenous. You have been raising your voices for
(29:43):
climate justice. People often criticize activists in those taking action
as being poor citizens, bad patriots. You hate your country?
Why are you a bad citizen? And I actually think
it's very good citizenship to be protesting when something's wrong,
because that shows a level of love and care for
the people around you and your state or country or
(30:05):
wherever you're from. If you're taking time out of your
busy existence to fight for something, I think that's excellent citizenship.
Mm hmm. Jamie, thank you so much for making time
for us. Thank you so much for having me. And
if people want to stay in touch with me after this,
you can follow me online at Jamie mark Golan on
all social media platforms, and you can read my book
(30:28):
Youth to Power at www dot youth to PowerBook dot com.
Thank you, I know you have to fly to the
other thing. Appreciate you. D M me. Anytime I had
set myself up for an onslaught of tech focused activism,
I wanted this gen z radical to tell me what
apps I should download, the up and coming programs to
(30:51):
get you organized and mobilized, and how do you use
TikTok to build a revolution and save the whole dangn world.
But in it, she took me all the way back
to ancient technology. Now, in the first half of this season,
we've met people who are creating whole new tech frameworks,
(31:12):
their coding, hacking, operating with thousands, if not millions of people.
Jamie uses Google, Drive, Instagram, and a little bit of
Slack and a lot of d m s. Although her
methods are less complex, it makes her endeavor more accessible
and it should be like today, a kid anywhere in
(31:35):
the world can learn, connect and join into this effort
with Jamie Tomorrow. Jamie's got this healthy humility about the
role of technology when it comes to solving problems. Tech
doesn't solve problems. People do. And this whole interview got
me thinking about what technology even is, how far back
(31:59):
does it go. Some of our oldest technologies are connected
to the earth. Made of the earth. We dug our
hands into the dirt, took the stone we found and
sharpened it to make tools, struck them together to create fire,
(32:19):
Learned to respect flames wild nature, manipulating that to make
meals and create comfort and hold up, Hold up, Okay,
I know I'm getting a little spoken word with all
this nature talk. I think what I need is some
fresh air and some perspective. So let's take this outside
and hey, I know a good spot. Being outside has
(32:42):
always been a really important part of my life, maybe
especially because I grew up in the city, but my
mom would take us camping, me and my little friends,
bike trips and hiking trips. I'm thinking about which path
I'm going to take to get to my hilltop. I
think I take a shorter one today just for time.
(33:06):
All right, I'm approaching my favorite part of my morning
hike for the mornings when I really want to push myself.
I'm about to climb a hill. And it's like, you know,
I joke about people in l A calling everything a hike.
This is a hike. I'm going off roads, scrambling up dirt.
(33:29):
Let's climbing this hill. All right. I have a little
bit more to go, but let's keep walking. We talked
a lot in this show about investing in relationships. Is
one about pillars to citizen is to invest in relationships
(33:52):
with yourself, with others, and with the planet around you.
And we've evolved that if you've been listening to us
from the very beginning, we didn't say not about the
planet or the environment, which is said invest in relationships,
but the planet part is critical. Very recently the summer,
I got to return to nature on purpose with a
(34:15):
film crew to make this TV show for PBS called
America Outdoors with Barritune Day Thirsty. That's me. And what
I got most out of the America Outdoors experience is
I got to spend time with three different indigenous communities,
the Shashawani Bannock in Idaho, the salmon people. We were
(34:38):
supposed to do a traditional salmon hunt, and we couldn't
because the climate change, because the salmon has been cooked
by their habitat, by their river. The ones that could
make it, we're so weak that the tribe decided to
leave them be. And they explain their relationship to the salmon.
(35:00):
They said, we call him brother salmon, we say father tree.
These are all relations of our and they have taken
care of us. They have provided for us for thousands
of years, so it's our turn to take care of them.
I think that Shoshani Bannock would consider in the salmon citizens.
(35:22):
I think that salmon citizens for them, and so they're
doing it in return. There's a reciprocity involved. And I'm
so grateful that Jamie is here to remind us of
our youngest guests ever by far spit in some wisdom
that and we were part of all of this, not
(35:43):
apart from it. I'm really hoping the wind isn't ruining
this little soliloquy, and if it is, I'm gonna roll
with it, because the wind is just trying to drive
home my point because we're sharing this because I wouldn't
be thinking this if I wasn't here feeling these things.
(36:07):
All right, this is a fun part. I'm going to
take you down the hill with me. My descent, I
used to kind of jog down because it helped me
feel fit active person. Next week, we take a step
into a town corrupted by misinformation and disinformation, and I
(36:28):
get to help sow the seeds of chaos. Play let's
destroy society. Congratulations, you're hired. Welcome to your first day
as our new chief disinformation officer. Let's get started. Trust me,
it's for the greater good. I can't wait for you
to hear this next one. Now, you know, I can't
(36:49):
have some young activist on the show and not give
you some actions to do. So here's the actions. Jamie
helped us conceive of technology in a different, more elemental way.
So the first thing I want you to do is
ask yourself some questions. When you think of technology, what
do you think of when you think of nature? What
(37:13):
do you think of and do you ever think of
the same things? And answer to both questions. Next, let's
get more informed about climate threats and opportunities for better
climate news, which we all need. Visit covering climate Now
dot org is really good on social media. Follow groups
like this is Zero Hour and Sunrise Movement. For something
(37:35):
more local, search online for climate change or climate action.
Then add the name of your neighborhood, your town, your region. Oh,
and you've got to read. This book is called All
We Can Save by doctors Jana, Elizabeth Johnson and Katherine Wilkerson.
It's an anthology of essays by women representing all the
people we've ignored on climate and it's filled with solutions
(37:59):
and in ration and realness. You can find this book
in the Shows Online bookshop. Finally, let's do some kind
of collective climate action. Those local online searches they could
lead you to businesses or groups you can support. I
recommend the Citizens Climate Lobby as a place to start.
Now talk about those types of things. Are you composting?
(38:21):
Are you trying to understand where your energy comes from?
Share that journey online. Let's use tech to make climate
action mainstream. As usual, I shared a lot, So the
good news is we wrote it all down for you.
Just check out the show notes for this episode in
your podcast app, or visit us at how to citizen
(38:42):
dot com. You can follow us on Instagram at how
to Citizen. Please tag us in your post about your
climate and tech journey and use the hashtag how to Citizen.
How to Citizen with Barrittunday is a production of I
Heart Radio Podcasts and Dustl Productions. Our executive producers are
me Baryton Day Thurston, Elizabeth Stewart and Misha Yusa. Our
(39:05):
senior producer is Tamika Adams. Our producer is Ali Kilts,
and our assistant producer Sam Paulson. Stephanie Cohne is our editor.
Valentino Rivera is our senior engineer, and Matthew Laie as
our apprentice. Additional production help from rwin Knicks, Original music
by Andrew Eapen with additional original music for season three
from Andrew Clawson. This episode was produced and sound designed
(39:28):
by Tamika Adams. Special thanks to Joel Smith from My
Heart Radio and Rachel Garcia at dust Light Production.
Yeah, welcome to How to Citizen with Baritune Day, a
podcast that reimagine citizen as a verb, not a legal status.
This season is all about tech and how it can
bring us together instead of tearing us apart. We're bringing
you the people using technology for so much more than
revenue and user growth. They're using it to help us citizen.
(00:29):
Can you take me to the scene of the march itself? Yes,
exterior daytime, American Capital. A group of young people are standing,
how the stage set up with a big banner and
a bunch of signs, flags and all sorts of things, banners, everything.
(00:53):
You're in the power and I feel its energy and
it's incredible. So keep it up, okay. Rallying for the
climate and getting ready for the marchatives the priority for you.
And it just absolutely starts pouring. Just torrential downpour. It
(01:13):
was raining so hard. Like I'm not talking like oh
like it drizzled, I'm talking torrential downpour. Your phone vibrates
saying flash flood alert, not safe to be outside. And
I remember crying and being really upset throughout the whole
thing of that, just like, oh no, it's not like
a sunny beautiful day like I wanted it to be.
(01:37):
Why did it have to rain? We worked so hard
for this day, for a whole year and everything like that.
A lot of the water protectors from Standing Rock were
there that day. They came all the way from different
reservations to to come be at the march, and Seby
Medina Tayak, who is an Indigenous climate activist, kept emphasizing,
(01:59):
like utter is life, there's nothing inherently wrong with it. Raining,
water soaked like wet rats, just dripping like we had
all just been through a very unforgiving shower, and the
paint from some of our signs was like just it dripped,
like it literally bled into the canvas of one of
(02:21):
our banners. But we still marched, we still rallied. One
of the rally leaders yelled out the rain brings out
the real ones, and so it was just a bunch
of like the real ones, just in it together, finishing
this march with rain ponchos, trying to stay warm, and
it was just this emotional sense of solidarity and family.
(02:45):
The pictures from that day it's just us like crusading
against the storm, and you can see them just look
up zero our Youth Climate March. The next day in
the New York Times. We had a full spread in
the Sunday Times about the work that we were doing,
and we still made an impact, act like we were
making a difference. I like to think that Mother Earth
(03:08):
was also weeping out of appreciation, you know, for you
taking a stand, So maybe you think about it that
way as well. She weeped in a temperature that was
a little colder than preferred. If I appreciate it, and
I love her sentiment. But if the next time she
weeps out of appreciation for an action that I do outdoors,
if it could not make me shiver, that would be amazing.
(03:30):
I'll put in a word. You put in a word.
I'm grateful for her, But I would have just I
was very cold. Jamie mark Goland is a nineteen year
old global leader in the fight against climate change. She
co founded Zero Hour, a youth led movement of activists
who are organizing grassroots efforts for environmental issues. Jamie wears
(03:52):
a ton of hats as an organizer, activist, author, and
fellow podcaster. The future of the planet is tied to
Jamie's future. She and so many young people like herself
are demanding action from those who currently hold power. Her
book Used to Power gives people of all ages a
guide book to starting a movement. In that book, Jamie
(04:14):
details how to organize, fundraise, and communicate with people across
the globe effectively. I care a lot about the climate
crisis because I like having a livable planet, and I
understand how urgent it is. I'd like to believe that
tech can help us, but I just don't know so
when it comes to climate change, is technology helping or
(04:37):
making the situation worse? I wanted to hear from someone
on the ground, fighting for the planet, fighting for us,
a person who was born in the age of smartphones
and social media, who's got an intimate relationship with tech.
In other words, Jamie, is tech empowering a whole generation
to get involved? If so, I wanted to find out how,
(05:00):
what methods are they using, and what does it take
to host the Youth Climate March at the age of sixteen.
Good to see you, Hello, Hello, it is so good
to see you too. Thank you for making the time.
I know you're busy trying to help save our only
home planet, So just appreciation right off top for which you.
(05:22):
Thank you thank you so much. I appreciate it. Can
you say your full name, introduce yourself and what it
is you do. Yeah, hello everyone. My name is Jamie,
said I Margolin. I'm nineteen years old. I'm a climate
justice organizer film student at n y U. I'm a
plaintiff on the Youth Peak of lawsuits doing the State
of Washington for continuing to worsen the climate crisis. Um,
(05:44):
and that lawsuit is still going on. And I'm the
co founder of an international youth climate justice organization called
Zero Hour, author of a book called Youth to Power
Your Voice and How to Use It, which is a
guide to being a young organizer for any cause for
anyone who wants to get involved. I'm also a filmmaker
and a screenwriter and just released the pilot of a
show that I wrote and directed and acted in called
(06:07):
Art Majors about queer teens in college. And I am
also the host of a podcast called Lavender You, which
is a queer media analysis podcast. So yeah, um, and
I'm a sophomore in college. Jamie, UM, why aren't you
doing more with your life? You're busy. I know what
(06:32):
busy is. So I say this as a busy person.
You're busy. It's good, good for good for you. We're
in this project this whole season talking about tech and
how it can help us be active citizens as supposed
to undermine that. And I really wanted to talk to
you about tech and activism and it was very natural
because I met you because of a tech platform exactly.
(06:54):
Let's check our memories here, as I recall, you hit
me up on a Twitter d M in the summer
and you're like, would you be willing to help out?
We're doing like a climate youth march and we can
use your help. And I was like, yeah, I'm down cool,
what do you need? And then I just got hit
(07:17):
with like zoom invites and text messages. I was on
a conference call. People were assigning me things to do,
and I remember specifically you had a message that was
because I had access to media, I was going on
cable news fairly frequently, and you're like, all these people
talking about the climate crisis, they're not going to be
subject to it the way my generation is. They need
(07:40):
to have young people on talking about the climate crisis.
And you said, so, what I need you to do
is I need you to introduce me to bookers at
the Daily Show at MSNBC CNN, and I jumped on
a zoom. I was on the Amtrak train going probably
between New York and d C. And I was on
(08:00):
this zoom with a Google spreadsheet open agree like, I'll
get you to m R Melbourne and I'll try with
Brian Williams said, like we had divided this list. There
were like five of you and a couple of old
people like me, and it was so bold and so beautiful.
Is that how you remember? Um? Okay, I'm a lot
(08:21):
more of a subtle person now as a nineteen year
old than the way I approached people as a sixteen
year old, where I was like do thing for me, please,
Oh yes, you've matured and aged. And the funny thing is, okay,
this is gonna sound terrible. But I actually don't even
(08:41):
remember that conversation because I had like around that time
I did that to like I was just it wasn't
I think it might have stood out to you because
you were like, what the hell is this? But like
I was just on so many calls and just trying
to get so many people to like mobilize, and I
was a ball of stress because I was like this
smart has to change everything. I was just so in
(09:05):
action mode that I was annoying like that on many
a call. I have had moments in my life Where'm
in this fugue state and I don't remember stuff either,
So I'm not really taken it personally, but it is
amusing to me, and I will hold this over your
head for the rest of our lives. Um. But I
also it's complimentary. You know, you, in my view, were
(09:28):
right to be fired up. You were right to demand
that there are too many people on television talking about
this thing that I don't know what they're talking about,
and the people closer to the problem should be closer
to talking about these solutions. And I love you know
what zero hours about. We'll get into that. So I
don't take it as like, oh, Jamie was that annoying
kid they dragged me into a zoom. Jamie was this
(09:49):
right person who is enlisting me to help a just cause.
I the fact that, like most people, I guess know
me from what I've done three years ago, and I'm
such a vastlet of person now is such a weird
disconnect because I'm like I was a child and I
still am young, But there is a lot that happens
and a lot of maturing and growing up that I've
had to do, just in my personal life and in
(10:10):
life in general, to be frank which and sincere, I
was sixteen, and I was very different when I was nineteen,
and I'm certainly different at forty four. Like we're all
always changing. So I'm giving you a hard time, but
it's not it's not real. So you've done something else
that that a lot of us haven't done. You've testified
before Congress back in people call my generation generation Z
(10:31):
as if we have the last generation, but we're not.
We're refusing to be the last letter of the alphabet.
What were you saying to these federal elected officials and
what's your take on the federal government response to this crisis. Well,
what I was saying to them is basically that it's
very rare that they hear from like a young social
justice leader, and it's a lot more often that they
(10:52):
hear from fossil fuel lobbyists. And so I said, like
for a couple of minutes that you're listening to me
right now, the vast majority of the time with the
people in your years are the ones who are you
know funding our destruction? I talked about the Pacific Northwest,
where I'm from. I've talked about just all the frustration
that I've been feeling. I broke down a lot of
the myths that they kept perpetuating, like we can't take
(11:13):
action because China isn't and just all of these ridiculous
arguments that they were making. I told them about the science.
I told them that we have no more time to act.
That how can they look their children in the eye
and tell them that they didn't do everything they could
to save their lives and futures before it's too late. Yeah,
do you think anybody heard you? I know that a
lot of people in the public heard me, Like it
(11:34):
went semi viral and a lot of people were inspired
by it. And we're complimenting. But the thing is, like,
I think the people that were amplifying it were people
that already supported my message. Anyway, it was covered by
Bright part and like a lot of conservative media, and
it was on Fox News. Another demand of the Youth
Climate Strike Group is what they're calling quote comprehensive climate
(11:55):
change education. They wanted for children aged five to four
to five years old. Why so young. In other words,
brainwashing is easier when they're little. And they were reporting
on it satirically, but it was still coverage from people
who we're hearing my message anyway. It's funny because their
headlines would be mocking, like radical climate activists says climate
(12:17):
change is a racist issue, and I'm like correct and
they say it like it's a bad thing. And you
made Fox News stay climate change. You made Fox newsake
and I made them stay climate change. I mean, like,
even if they're making fun of me, I did my
part when you set up this contrast of who are
politicians listened to? Overwhelmingly more time spent with fossil fuel
(12:38):
executives than with the future generations inheriting this world. I
wonder a lot of us see climate and the climate crisis.
We frame it in terms of fossil fuels and like
industrial output things since the industrial revolution. You have a
broader view, in a slightly different view of just how
to define this crisis? How do you define it? Well?
(13:00):
I define the climate crisis as the grand culmination of
all of our societal evils come together in one big, bad,
final video game boss. That's how I view it, you know,
I view it as a combination of the consequences of colonialism, racism, patriarchy,
(13:22):
capitalism on steroids, everything combined into this monster that is
us causing our own destruction. I mean, we know literally
where climate change came from the Industrial revolution in greenhouse
gas emissions. If you go back further, how did we
get to a society that was so inherently extracted and
you go back to colonialism and the triangle trade and
(13:43):
the genocide of indigenous people. In that way of life
and existing with the earth as opposed to the European
colonial way of existing and extracting from the earth, and
that way of moving through the world, of not moving
through it in collaboration or in harmony, but moving through
it in competition and in green is the root of
how we're in this. And so when people are like,
(14:05):
stop talking about gender, stop talking about race, we need
to focus on climate, or this is about the environment,
they're not understanding that we exist in the environment. So
our issues are inherently intertwined, like we are not separate
from it. We're not separate from the oxygen we breathe,
because without it we would be too dead to be
having this conversation. You're very good, Jamie would very good.
(14:27):
When we come back, Jamie shares the tension of using
tech and its attempts to use her Yeah, when you
were first starting out, what did you think it would
take to build a social movement around climate change? And
what did it end up actually taking? It ended up
(14:50):
taking what I thought it would take. I wasn't under
the fantasy that I would post one thing on Instagram
and it would magically blow up virally and then everything
would come together and it would be perfect and I
would save the world. Yea, We're done. That's not how
activism works. No, No, it's not what took me by surprise,
and which shouldn't have as the amount of people, skills
and collaboration that it would need. I am an only child,
(15:13):
grew up without a pet, and so I've just been
like kind of that nerdy girl who was I mean,
I had friends and things, but I was always kind
of learned to entertain myself do projects by myself. In
my head, I was like, how hard is managing a
massive group of very opinionated teenagers from all around the
country going to be? It will be easy. I was
worried about the work, but I didn't think about management
(15:37):
and team building. I hated group projects at school. This
was the ultimate group project that I cared so deeply about,
and at some point it got too big to be
in my own control, and I didn't expect. You know,
when your child outgrows you and it's no longer even
about you, And that was fine. The goal was never
referred to be about me. I'm glad when I hear like,
(15:57):
people recognize your are but they have no idea who
I am, And I'm like, that's perfect. But it was
both thrilling and also scary because I had to let
go because it was like this was no longer my
brain child, my passion, like my dream. It now meant
something to other people, and so I suddenly felt like
I had transferred a dream onto others and now they
(16:17):
were invested in. So I didn't expect the pressure of
feeling responsible for not letting everyone down to Yeah, breakdown
how you approach using technology to support your activism. Yeah,
And there's a whole chapter in Youth to Power that's
all about digital organizing and how to use social media
to your advantage while not letting it use you. And
(16:39):
the main things that I talked about were a consolidated
message things like you know, coming up with a campaign
hashtag and accounts and graphics and concise messaging links, making
sure that things are very easy for people. You know,
how to have a coordinated like press kit. Let's say
you're promoting an action. When zero hour was promoting our
(17:00):
youth climate marches, for example, we had specific graphics that
are designer na the ANASA made, as well as some
hashtags and pre written out captions that we would send
to people to then post online to get more people
to sign up and register for this event. And we
were using tool kits, which is just like a Google
Drive with all of the things compiled. Also like dm
(17:22):
NG people, as I did to you, maybe a little annoying,
but also like I knew what I was doing and
I had a real vision. So people listen to me,
but maybe don't be like as annoying as I was
when I was sixteen. When you think about the platforms
you rely on, what do you use the most, What
do you rely on the most In terms of internal organizing,
Google Drive is like the thing like that is like
(17:44):
the holy grail of all things, whether I'm filmmaking or
starting an organization, or writing a book. So if you
aren't in on the Google drive magic, Google doesn't need
me yet. I don't need to advertise for them. I
don't know why. I like, like we check out Google.
There are a small business that could really use your help. No,
(18:05):
what I mean is that's the biggest internal tool. Also Slack.
People use slack a lot. I'm using the word tool
too much, but it is a great tool. How does
your hour continue to use tech to organize and stay relevant?
And what are y'all using a fundraise? Is there anything
that feels novel about how you've deployed tech or communicated
with each other or built coalitions because of what tech
(18:28):
is enabled that maybe some other era might not have
afforded you. Yeah, I mean crowdfunding is huge go fund
me and action network and like crowdfunding sites or also
like crowd petition gathering sites or like email gathering platforms,
eat mailing servers, ways to disseminate information on a mass level,
and ways to crowd fund. It's something that people before
(18:51):
us didn't have access to where I can just open
up a website, put together a thing like hey, help
us raise money for this or come to this event,
put in the location that makes things a lot more
are accessible. Do you struggle at all with the tech
that you depend on, given how so much of it
isn't designed with our collective best interest in mind? Absolutely.
(19:13):
Social media gives me a lot of anxiety because it's
very overstimulating to know every single bad event in the
world happening at all times. That's why there's the term
doom scrolling. And it's also discouraging, you know, when you
see creators who you admire being censored or punished for
simply posting queer content or other content that you know
(19:33):
a lot of the algorithms consider violating guidelines or whatever.
I've used to feel the pressure to weigh in about
everything all of the time, like, oh, like I need
to comment about all the things. And then I'm like,
why do I need to comment on all of the things.
Bo Burnham had a great special called Inside where he's like,
can any one person in one place shut up about
(19:56):
one thing for one hour? Please? And I resonated with
that because I'm like, there's just so much noise. Yeah,
And then I'm like this is fake and designed to
make me get addicted. It has benefits, and I will
use it for those but I'm going to create a
healthy boundary so that the number of likes does not
affect how I feel about it at all. It's just like, well,
the algorithm didn't like that whatever, you know, Instead of
(20:19):
caring like it wants us to and using social media
as a tool and not letting it use me, because
for a while I was letting it use me. With organizing,
the technical element of organizing being so much simpler with
modern technology than it was fifty years ago, do you
(20:40):
think that shifts your available use of energy away from
the tool to the organizing itself. Yeah, definitely. I just
feel like, I mean, the myth of technology is that
it makes it so we don't have to work anymore,
and it's it does everything for us. My dad was
telling me that back the invention of like the computer,
in different things, like people who are like, wow, it's
(21:01):
going to be so revolutionary, Everyone's going to have so
much more time in their day. I don't think that's true.
I think we're more busy, stressed, burnt out, and unrested
than ever. So clearly access to digital organizing tools isn't
freeing us up to like do other things. It's precarious
tools to be using, so you will find yourself. I
(21:22):
will do this still where I'm like, okay, I need
to DM someone about this event or something like that,
something business related. I go into my Instagram, Okay, I
need to send a message. I see something. Something pops up.
Two hours later, I'm like, what, how am I here?
And what was I supposed to do? So I don't
know how time saving it is. Yeah, well here's a
(21:44):
here's a shift. Someone listening to this. I heard what
you said about how we should consider the climate crisis.
They're moved, they're motivated. What do you want them to do? Yeah?
I think can help in that. Like social media, you know,
it has its downsides, just like everything, and you know,
(22:06):
people use and abuse it just like they do with
any other tool that gets turned into a weapon when
in the wrong hands or leveraged incorrectly. It's just like anything.
It's just like a knife can be something violent, or
it can be used to cut, you know, some carrots
for a really great soup. Yes, and so for those
(22:29):
of you who want to use it as a useful tool,
then I really encourage you to find organizations in your area.
You have like ten dollars five dollars a month to spare.
Find a local grassroots organization online and sign up to
help support them. For a grassroots organization, having that reliable
income can be really helpful. Use social media for good.
(22:49):
Cur at your feed to be following organizations like Zero
Hour or the International Indigenous Youth Council or UNAS or
a bunch of other like great accounts to follow. Do
you have climate anxiety? Are you feeling hopeless? Is so?
Stick around? I promise we've got some uplift and wisdom
(23:09):
from Jamie. On the other side, we are used to
conceiving of you know. I read the I p c
c's latest you know report. It's overwhelming, It's it's unequivocal.
(23:32):
It was a word that comes across a few times there.
And I'm part of a generation and certainly those before
me that can be pretty cynical. Get when I feel
the energy of youth climate activists and climate justice folks,
there's optimism there. Yeah, where is that optimism coming from?
(23:54):
And what do you say to people who think this
is just too big? We've proven unworthy this far? Why
would be changed now? I mean, first of all, let's
not pretend like young people are all like, yeah, we're
so enthusiastic and optimistic. There is a huge levels of
climate anxiety, and honestly, at this point, I call it
climate depression because anxiety implies fearing for something in the
(24:16):
future that hasn't happened yet, versus depression is the sadness
of it, in the grief of the environmental destruction that
is already happening, and that is so overwhelming, and so
for me it has been very difficult to like I
I feel. I know this sounds cheesy and people might
(24:36):
be like, shut up, Jamie, but sometimes I will get
to a moment where I feel the pain of just
like the earth and the people and everything that's suffering,
and it's overwhelming, and I feel genuinely heartbroken and like
this deep grief. While I can like go on a
podcast and talk about it and go to a protest
and organize, there's only a certain level to which I
(24:57):
can affect it. Because I'm one little human out of
aliens on this planet. I feel that, and I feel that,
But I think I guess the reason why we're still
in this is because giving up is not an option.
I just feel like it's the nature of nature to
want to survive. Plants always try to grow, you know,
in weird places where they're not supposed to. You'll see
(25:19):
like bugs and weird animals and places where you think,
how is anything alive? It's life's instinct to keep having
hope in itself, and so I think that's where it
comes from at this point, honestly, with this level of
climate disaster, and just sometimes I do feel like I'm
(25:40):
at Rome right before the fall, and I'm like, I'm
learning how to integrate into Roman society when it's collapsing.
This is really weird. I feel that way a lot.
But then I'm also like, what other choice do I have?
I hear you, fellow Roman, So so let me ask
you this. Do you think technology is helping or is
it during the climate crisis. My main thing with technology
(26:03):
and the climate crisis is that I feel like people
act as if technology is somehow a replacement for social
justice or climate justice or dismantling what has to go.
And I think that there's a danger in putting too
much faith in innovating our way out of this, or
we'll just check our way out of this. We'll build
(26:26):
the spaceship and we'll do this. Like, I feel like
there also has to be some respect for the natural technologies.
Technology is also the ancient technologies of our planet, of
the ecosystems of trees. I feel like those are technologies
that we have to respect to. And when we get
so caught up in trying to hate generalizing, but it's
(26:47):
it's tech bros. You know, the tech bro type where
they're just like, I know, I definitely know who you're
talking about. Oh man, Like the climate crisis, it's it'll
be totally fine. We'll like just g o engineer everything,
and then I have the spaceship to go to Mars
and we'll just like suck in all the carbon with
my fancy new gadget. And it's like, that's not the
(27:08):
real root solution that needs to happen. Technology does help us,
solar panels, digital organizing tools, everything. The technology we're using
to have this conversation right now awesome, But we can't
act like it's a replacement for the real change that
has to happen. How did you come to have this
expanded definition of technology. I think it was over time.
(27:31):
I mean, part of it is like my Ahuila, you know,
she always would have herbal remedies and curism. We would
call her doctoral Lucilla, even though she's not a doctor.
She didn't even receive any sort of education. She grew
up as a campasina in rural part of Colombia. But
she had the ancient knowledge from her ancestors, from her mom,
(27:52):
from her siblings, of you know what foods and plants
and things are good for you and help with certain things.
And that is a wisdom, a sort of ancient knowledge.
But I just kind of have always understood that there's
more too, Like there's other things to respect, other than
just what men and lab coats say. Like I'm a
(28:14):
very scientific person. I'm not. I don't I believe in science,
but I just mean that this is also science too.
I also think of them as like technologies of harnessing
like the power of ourselves and the planet. Like people
talk about sometimes meditation is like an ancient technology, and
like I've been trying to meditate regularly and tap into
(28:37):
that beautiful that's really that's really helpful. It's a dope perspective.
I think it adds balance to our interpretation of technology
and of ourselves, and in a moment when we're out
of balance, you know, see climate crisis. We could expand
our definition of technology to to come back to balance
(29:00):
by waiting a bit more respect for some of these
ancient technologies you just talked about. We call this show
how to Citizen. We believe in interpreting this word not
as a legal noun weapon, but rather as a verb.
I mean, we do stuff. When you think of the
word citizen as a verb, what does it mean to you?
(29:21):
I think that being a good citizen is is also
about knowing when to question authority in the right way.
We are here at the first hour you mad in
our nation's history. However, you all around the world have
been working for a lot longer than this, especially you
have color indigenous. You have been raising your voices for
(29:43):
climate justice. People often criticize activists in those taking action
as being poor citizens, bad patriots. You hate your country?
Why are you a bad citizen? And I actually think
it's very good citizenship to be protesting when something's wrong,
because that shows a level of love and care for
the people around you and your state or country or
(30:05):
wherever you're from. If you're taking time out of your
busy existence to fight for something, I think that's excellent citizenship.
Mm hmm. Jamie, thank you so much for making time
for us. Thank you so much for having me. And
if people want to stay in touch with me after this,
you can follow me online at Jamie mark Golan on
all social media platforms, and you can read my book
(30:28):
Youth to Power at www dot youth to PowerBook dot com.
Thank you, I know you have to fly to the
other thing. Appreciate you. D M me. Anytime I had
set myself up for an onslaught of tech focused activism,
I wanted this gen z radical to tell me what
apps I should download, the up and coming programs to
(30:51):
get you organized and mobilized, and how do you use
TikTok to build a revolution and save the whole dangn world.
But in it, she took me all the way back
to ancient technology. Now, in the first half of this season,
we've met people who are creating whole new tech frameworks,
(31:12):
their coding, hacking, operating with thousands, if not millions of people.
Jamie uses Google, Drive, Instagram, and a little bit of
Slack and a lot of d m s. Although her
methods are less complex, it makes her endeavor more accessible
and it should be like today, a kid anywhere in
(31:35):
the world can learn, connect and join into this effort
with Jamie Tomorrow. Jamie's got this healthy humility about the
role of technology when it comes to solving problems. Tech
doesn't solve problems. People do. And this whole interview got
me thinking about what technology even is, how far back
(31:59):
does it go. Some of our oldest technologies are connected
to the earth. Made of the earth. We dug our
hands into the dirt, took the stone we found and
sharpened it to make tools, struck them together to create fire,
(32:19):
Learned to respect flames wild nature, manipulating that to make
meals and create comfort and hold up, Hold up, Okay,
I know I'm getting a little spoken word with all
this nature talk. I think what I need is some
fresh air and some perspective. So let's take this outside
and hey, I know a good spot. Being outside has
(32:42):
always been a really important part of my life, maybe
especially because I grew up in the city, but my
mom would take us camping, me and my little friends,
bike trips and hiking trips. I'm thinking about which path
I'm going to take to get to my hilltop. I
think I take a shorter one today just for time.
(33:06):
All right, I'm approaching my favorite part of my morning
hike for the mornings when I really want to push myself.
I'm about to climb a hill. And it's like, you know,
I joke about people in l A calling everything a hike.
This is a hike. I'm going off roads, scrambling up dirt.
(33:29):
Let's climbing this hill. All right. I have a little
bit more to go, but let's keep walking. We talked
a lot in this show about investing in relationships. Is
one about pillars to citizen is to invest in relationships
(33:52):
with yourself, with others, and with the planet around you.
And we've evolved that if you've been listening to us
from the very beginning, we didn't say not about the
planet or the environment, which is said invest in relationships,
but the planet part is critical. Very recently the summer,
I got to return to nature on purpose with a
(34:15):
film crew to make this TV show for PBS called
America Outdoors with Barritune Day Thirsty. That's me. And what
I got most out of the America Outdoors experience is
I got to spend time with three different indigenous communities,
the Shashawani Bannock in Idaho, the salmon people. We were
(34:38):
supposed to do a traditional salmon hunt, and we couldn't
because the climate change, because the salmon has been cooked
by their habitat, by their river. The ones that could
make it, we're so weak that the tribe decided to
leave them be. And they explain their relationship to the salmon.
(35:00):
They said, we call him brother salmon, we say father tree.
These are all relations of our and they have taken
care of us. They have provided for us for thousands
of years, so it's our turn to take care of them.
I think that Shoshani Bannock would consider in the salmon citizens.
(35:22):
I think that salmon citizens for them, and so they're
doing it in return. There's a reciprocity involved. And I'm
so grateful that Jamie is here to remind us of
our youngest guests ever by far spit in some wisdom
that and we were part of all of this, not
(35:43):
apart from it. I'm really hoping the wind isn't ruining
this little soliloquy, and if it is, I'm gonna roll
with it, because the wind is just trying to drive
home my point because we're sharing this because I wouldn't
be thinking this if I wasn't here feeling these things.
(36:07):
All right, this is a fun part. I'm going to
take you down the hill with me. My descent, I
used to kind of jog down because it helped me
feel fit active person. Next week, we take a step
into a town corrupted by misinformation and disinformation, and I
(36:28):
get to help sow the seeds of chaos. Play let's
destroy society. Congratulations, you're hired. Welcome to your first day
as our new chief disinformation officer. Let's get started. Trust me,
it's for the greater good. I can't wait for you
to hear this next one. Now, you know, I can't
(36:49):
have some young activist on the show and not give
you some actions to do. So here's the actions. Jamie
helped us conceive of technology in a different, more elemental way.
So the first thing I want you to do is
ask yourself some questions. When you think of technology, what
do you think of when you think of nature? What
(37:13):
do you think of and do you ever think of
the same things? And answer to both questions. Next, let's
get more informed about climate threats and opportunities for better
climate news, which we all need. Visit covering climate Now
dot org is really good on social media. Follow groups
like this is Zero Hour and Sunrise Movement. For something
(37:35):
more local, search online for climate change or climate action.
Then add the name of your neighborhood, your town, your region. Oh,
and you've got to read. This book is called All
We Can Save by doctors Jana, Elizabeth Johnson and Katherine Wilkerson.
It's an anthology of essays by women representing all the
people we've ignored on climate and it's filled with solutions
(37:59):
and in ration and realness. You can find this book
in the Shows Online bookshop. Finally, let's do some kind
of collective climate action. Those local online searches they could
lead you to businesses or groups you can support. I
recommend the Citizens Climate Lobby as a place to start.
Now talk about those types of things. Are you composting?
(38:21):
Are you trying to understand where your energy comes from?
Share that journey online. Let's use tech to make climate
action mainstream. As usual, I shared a lot, So the
good news is we wrote it all down for you.
Just check out the show notes for this episode in
your podcast app, or visit us at how to citizen
(38:42):
dot com. You can follow us on Instagram at how
to Citizen. Please tag us in your post about your
climate and tech journey and use the hashtag how to Citizen.
How to Citizen with Barrittunday is a production of I
Heart Radio Podcasts and Dustl Productions. Our executive producers are
me Baryton Day Thurston, Elizabeth Stewart and Misha Yusa. Our
(39:05):
senior producer is Tamika Adams. Our producer is Ali Kilts,
and our assistant producer Sam Paulson. Stephanie Cohne is our editor.
Valentino Rivera is our senior engineer, and Matthew Laie as
our apprentice. Additional production help from rwin Knicks, Original music
by Andrew Eapen with additional original music for season three
from Andrew Clawson. This episode was produced and sound designed
(39:28):
by Tamika Adams. Special thanks to Joel Smith from My
Heart Radio and Rachel Garcia at dust Light Production.
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