August 25, 2025 • 59 mins
What does it truly mean to show up whole and authentic in a world that encourages fragmentation? Dr. Thema Bryant doesn't just talk about integration—she embodies it as a psychologist, author, professor, sacred artist, and minister leading transformative work in trauma healing and relationship building.
Dr. Bryant shares her excitement about merging different aspects of her identity and work, challenging the notion that we must compartmentalize ourselves based on context. "I'm excited about not being segregated within myself and with other people, but to be inviting for us to engage with our whole selves," she explains. This radical authenticity creates ripple effects, encouraging others to bring their full humanity into spaces where they've previously felt silenced.
Our conversation explores the powerful frameworks of decolonial and liberation psychology. Decolonial psychology deconstructs harmful colonial impacts—extraction, dehumanization, and power imbalances—while liberation psychology builds a vision for collective freedom. Dr. Bryant challenges the field's arrogance in assuming psychotherapy is the only path to healing, calling for cultural humility and recognition of diverse healing traditions that have sustained communities for generations.
Perhaps most provocatively, Dr. Bryant calls for mental health professionals to embody the healing they claim to facilitate. "I would love us to actually be well," she says, noting how many practitioners suffer from self-erasure and neglect. She critiques training systems that preach self-care while penalizing boundary-setting, and challenges the field's silence on systemic issues affecting mental health.
From the healing power of arts and cultural practices to the importance of releasing relationships that don't serve us, Dr. Bryant offers practical wisdom for navigating our interconnected existence. She reminds us that "liberation is interwoven, it is collective. It cannot be on the backs of other people's bondage."
The conversation closes with a vision of a world with "more ease in our bodies, more ease with each other, more ease in our spirits," while acknowledging the ongoing need for intentional resistance against harmful patterns. Dr. Bryant's integration of psychology, spirituality, arts, and justice work offers a roadmap for authentic, holistic healing that honors our full humanity.
Join us for this soul-nourishing conversation that will transform how you think about healing, relationships, and creating meaningful change in our complex world.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lisa Danylchuk (00:04):
Welcome back to the how we Can Heal podcast.
Today, our guest is Dr ThemaBryant.
Dr Thema Bryant is apsychologist, author, professor,
sacred artist and ministerwho's leading the way in
creating healthy relationships,healing traumas and overcoming
stress and oppression.
She completed her doctorate inclinical psychology at Duke
(00:27):
University and her postdoctoraltraining at Harvard Medical
Center's Victims of Violenceprogram, and is currently a
tenured professor of psychologyin the Graduate School of
Education and Psychology atPepperdine University, where she
directs the Culture and TraumaResearch Laboratory.
Dr Tama has received countlessaccolades and awards, including
(00:48):
the 2013 American PsychologicalAssociation Award for
Distinguished Early CareerContributions to Psychology in
the Public Interest, and in 2023, she received the Silverman
Lifetime Achievement Award forSocial Justice in Psychology.
Among her many leadershippositions, she served as
(01:09):
president of the AmericanPsychological Association in
2023.
Dr Tama has written many books,most recently Matters of the
Heart, which encourages readersto build authentic and
fulfilling relationships withthemselves and the people in
their lives.
Today, we talk about creatinglasting positive change within
(01:30):
the field of psychology.
Dr Tama shares how embracingour whole selves can bring
healing and how key principlesof decolonial and liberation
psychology can help us addressharm and promote healing across
contexts.
She shares tools, stories andreminds us of the ways in which
hope is at the foundation of allmental health work.
(01:52):
I'm beyond thrilled to sharethis conversation with you today
, so please join me in welcomingDr Tama Bryant to the show.
The more you learn about trauma,the more you see it everywhere.
It's a superpower to see it,and it's also necessary to see
(02:13):
beyond it.
This fall, I'm offering a newclass Freedom from Trauma.
In it, I'll describe why it'sessential for us to identify
trauma and how we can approachhealing in a way that we don't
end up swimming.
In it You'll learn simple, notalways easy perspective and
practices to help you move outof the trauma vortex and stand
(02:35):
in something stronger and morepowerful than the impacts of
harm.
I'm looking forward to sharingwhat I know with you in this new
way.
Visit howwecanhealcom forwardslash freedom from trauma to
register for the training.
Dr Thema Bryant, so excited tohave you on the how we Can Heal
(02:57):
podcast Welcome.
Dr. Thema Bryant (02:59):
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm excited for theconversation.
Lisa Danylchuk (03:03):
So I saw your plenary at the ISSTD conference
and I was blown away by it,thought everyone needs to hear
this and of course we can'trepeat all of that now.
But I'm curious for you, withall of the work that you're
doing.
I see you on social media.
You've been president of APAand other organizations.
You are out there.
You are a force for joy andlove and authenticity and
(03:27):
connection and all thesebeautiful things and I feel like
we all need that all the timeand we really need it right now.
Yes, so I'm wondering for youwhat's felt the most alive in
your work lately?
What are the ideas, thethoughts, the conversations that
feel most alive for you rightnow?
Dr. Thema Bryant (03:45):
Yeah, what I am really thrilled about in this
season is the integration ofthe different aspects of my work
and the different aspects of mylife.
So I'm an artistic person, I'm aspiritual person, of course, a
mental health person, and inearlier seasons of my life those
(04:07):
were very kind of separatecommunities.
So, you know, I would spendtime with creatives, I would
spend time with people of faith,I would spend time with mental
health professionals and, youknow, can speak each of those
languages very comfortably andfluently those languages very
(04:28):
comfortably and fluently.
But it has been a beautifuljourney of merging all of that
and being present with all ofthat at the same time and seeing
the ripple effects of that One.
Most of us are multi-layeredand so it becomes kind of
contagious and comforting whenwe raise these different aspects
of ourselves, then people canjoin in and say, like me too,
(04:50):
right, or this is my art, orthis is my faith walk.
And I'm excited about not beingsegregated within myself and
with other people, but to beinviting for us to engage with
our whole selves.
Lisa Danylchuk (05:07):
Yes, and when we do that?
I've heard you mention peoplecoming up and whispering things
to you, right?
Dr. Thema Bryant (05:14):
It's so lovely because, you know, we have
directly and indirectly beengiven the message that we have
to leave ourselves in themargins and what I have found is
the more we show upauthentically.
Instead of that being a closeddoor for other people, it
becomes an invitation.
(05:34):
When I was president of theAmerican Psychological
Association, one of the days ofthe convention we invited people
to wear attire or pins orjewelry that represented some
aspect of their identity, and Iremember I was so moved by one
of our Jewish colleagues whoshared that convention was her
(05:55):
first time wearing the Star ofDavid to convention to feel safe
enough to be present in who sheis, enough to be present in who
she is.
And you know, that's what it'sabout.
I think people's fear is thatif I announce that and I have on
African attire, then everyoneelse will feel somehow
suppressed or silenced or notwelcomed.
But like we all get to be thefullness of who we are, whatever
(06:19):
that is.
Lisa Danylchuk (06:19):
Yeah, and it can give encouragement.
I was going to say permission,but there's like a I don't know
false sense of separation andpower in that Right, and it can
give encouragement.
I was going to say permission,but there's like a I don't know
false sense of separation andpower in that Right, but it can
just give encouragement.
Hey, here's who I am, and thenwho's maybe tucked away this way
or that way?
Oh, me too In this other way.
Dr. Thema Bryant (06:37):
Yes, yes, it's beautiful.
Lisa Danylchuk (06:40):
You're teaching in a school of education, right?
Yeah, well, it's education andpsychology.
Dr. Thema Bryant (06:44):
It's a combined department.
Lisa Danylchuk (06:45):
I'm curious too about that integration with
psychology and education,because I feel like what you're
doing is taking all the depth ofthe clinical awareness and work
and then just putting it out inbooks and in talks.
Everybody, take this, run withit, take what it needs, keep it
going, bring it to therapy,bring it wherever you're going,
(07:09):
but there's something about thiseducation element of psychology
that also feels reallyimportant right now.
Dr. Thema Bryant (07:12):
Right Part of it reflects that model of
decolonial or liberationpsychology which is for us not
to be elitist with our knowledgeor information, that it's not
just for the academy, to the fewwho can subscribe to these
journals or even understand ourjargon, that it is not just for
those who have the financialmeans or access to therapy.
(07:35):
But how do we share our science?
And so, for me, great ways toshare it are the books, social
media, the podcast, and to makeit accessible and usable To me.
There's liberation in that.
Lisa Danylchuk (07:53):
And your talk at the ISSTD.
You talked about decolonialpsychology and you focused
really on liberation psychology.
So I want to break those down alittle bit for listeners.
Some people are familiar, Somepeople might not be.
Break those down a little bitfor listeners.
Some people are familiar, somepeople might not be.
You define decolonialpsychology as deconstructing the
harmful impacts of colonialismso that we can see the truth of
(08:13):
the harm that's happened.
That's right.
Is there anything more you wantto say about that?
Because then I want to talkfull in to liberation psychology
.
Dr. Thema Bryant (08:21):
Yes, yes.
So you know, we can think aboutwhat it means to colonize.
To colonize is to extract, totake, to dehumanize, demean, to
use, right, not for the benefitof those who are being used, but
for the benefit of those inpower.
(08:42):
And so, when we understand whatcolonialism is, decolonizing
should not be controversial,right?
So for people who are like, ah,I'm against that, you're
against what, you're againststopping extraction, right,
you're against stealing people'sresources, like what is it
you're against?
And so I brought in that termbecause I think legally or
(09:07):
politically it can make sense topeople.
But I also mean it in terms ofin psychology, right.
So we can have very narrow,arrogant notions about healing.
Healing, you know, to even thinkand I say this as someone who
has been to therapy, whoprovides therapy, who provides
(09:29):
training for future therapistsbut for us to believe that, in
all of human history, that theonly way to heal is through
psychotherapy is just outrageous, right.
Like you know, therapies arerelatively, in a traditional
sense, the way we think about it.
It's a relatively young fieldand in many countries there may
(09:51):
be like less than fivepsychologists in the space.
So to decolonize is also for usto have humility, cultural
humility to say yes, we know thethings that we know, and there
are many, many ways that humanbeings have not only survived
(10:12):
but thrived and healed andflourished, and so for us to see
ourselves in that landscape,not as the only road, and in a
lot of our curriculum so there'sthe saying like decolonize the
curriculum, that when we name,like who are the great minds in
(10:35):
psychology, and if that list isonly white, straight,
able-bodied men, then like we'remissing it so we're not adding
other names to do them a favor.
Right, it's not tokenism, it islike the richness, the wealth of
the field that if you reallywant to be of service to the
world, then we want a psychologythat's informed by the world,
(11:00):
and many times those readings,that literature has not been
mandated nor amplified orhighlighted, and so then we are.
I call it half healing.
You know, it's not that thesethings that are highlighted
don't work at all, it's justthey're not the only way.
And so we want to preparepeople to have like a full
(11:22):
toolkit of all of the differentrich ways that we can go about
this healing work.
Lisa Danylchuk (11:30):
Yeah, it's so important that you mentioned.
People have been healingthroughout time and in so many
ways, and oftentimes newmodalities come up and then
people go oh, that's kind oflike what people have been doing
for a long time over here andlike what people have been doing
for a long time over here, andit's like what people have been
doing for a long time over there.
Yes, sometimes there's aconnection or a nod to it, but
not always, and I always feltlike man.
(11:51):
I wish I could just live in asmall group of people and just
be the person in the corner overhere that people came to to
talk to when they were upset,like I don't need to have an
office.
No-transcript community.
Dr. Thema Bryant (12:30):
Yeah, you know the way we're trained.
It's like a bad thing that,like you, might run into
somebody in a store right Likeoh no, they saw me.
Lisa Danylchuk (12:39):
Oh my goodness, what are we going to do?
Dr. Thema Bryant (12:43):
Versus.
You know, I remember one of myfirst positions after I
graduated was at PrincetonUniversity in student health
services, but particularly aprogram called SHARE to address
sexual assault and partner abuseand harassment based on sexual
orientation.
And I just remember like themore campus events I went to,
(13:05):
the better, because then peoplesee you just being human and are
like, oh, I think that'ssomeone I could talk to.
And so you know, it's not likerunning and hiding that we only
exist in these four walls, butto be approachable and
accessible.
Lisa Danylchuk (13:22):
Yeah, it's much more the humane and the human
side right, and there's like aclinical, scientific side, and
I've heard you talk about thislike, well, yeah, we want to be
informed by science 100% and wedon't want to be stifled by it,
like we're full humans, justlike earlier, integrating all
these parts, bringing your voice, bringing song, bringing dance
(13:44):
bringing spirituality and notfeeling like we have to talk.
Dr. Thema Bryant (13:47):
I was telling students in my classes past
semester you are the secretsauce right.
We're going to teach you thesemodels, these interventions.
There are some sentences orscripts you might remember, but
all of that has to wash throughthe authenticity of yourself.
We know the big predictor interms of what's helpful is the
(14:10):
relationship, and people don'tbuild relationship just based on
your techniques.
They are building relationshipbased on your personhood.
So like be present.
Lisa Danylchuk (14:20):
Yeah yeah, it's not just AI telling you to say
more about that.
Dr. Thema Bryant (14:26):
Yes.
Lisa Danylchuk (14:27):
Oh, oh, my goodness.
I heard recently I know this isa whole other topic, but I
heard recently someone say thatthey were studying some mental
health AI and there were bigproblems with some of them.
But one of the funny problemswas that it brought it back to
the mother way too much, it'slike.
Tell me more about your mother.
What did your mother say to you?
Dr. Thema Bryant (14:42):
So, yeah, right, some things have not
changed.
You know, blaming and shamingwomen.
Lisa Danylchuk (14:48):
Right, yeah, so let's talk a bit about
liberation psychology and maybewe can talk about, you know,
feminism in there too.
I guess you just brought thatup and there's a lot going on
with being a woman in the world,being a parent in the world.
But liberation psychology, asyou described it in the lecture
I attended, you were talkingabout it as a roadmap, right,
(15:10):
Like, where are we going?
Okay, so we look back and wegive a nod, we acknowledge the
harm of colonialism, past andpresent.
We look at that, we see it forwhat it is.
That's a very important andhelpful step.
And then and there was a wordyou used it was like a bird
flying forward and looking back.
Dr. Thema Bryant (15:28):
Sankofa.
Sankofa, yes, that's beautiful.
So you know, sankofa is a WestAfrican symbol, a bird flying
forward and looking back.
And the idea is, as we progress, we don't forget those who are
still coming up behind us, sothat we can create the way for
them, so we can meet peoplewhere they are.
(15:49):
And so, with decolonial work,as you mentioned, we're
deconstructing, and some peoplehave critiqued that like well,
that still centers colonialism,right?
So you know, the partner tothat is liberation, which is
what are we building?
Lisa Danylchuk (16:05):
Yeah.
Dr. Thema Bryant (16:06):
We don't want to only center what is wrong,
but to get a vision, for youknow, what would it look like
for me as an individual to befree, what would it look like
for the members of my family tobe free?
What would it look like formembers of my community to be
free?
And what would it look like forpeople who don't mirror my
reflection to be free?
What would it look like formembers of my community to be
free?
And what would it look like forpeople who don't mirror my
(16:27):
reflection to be free?
Because sometimes what we havegotten into is people want
freedom for themselves, but noone else, which is just
privilege, right?
It's not real.
You know, liberation isinterwoven, it is collective.
It cannot be on the backs ofother people's bondage.
And so for us to think throughwhat that looks like, what that
(16:50):
feels like, and to helpfacilitate that process, which
shows up in many, many differentways.
We can think aboutpost-traumatic growth, we can
think about positive psychology,that we are not only focused on
symptom cessation or distressreduction, but what will it look
(17:12):
like for people to live fully,freely, abundantly, and then to
go about actively doing thatwork, to co-create it?
Lisa Danylchuk (17:21):
Yeah, so we look back, we acknowledge the harm
that's been done, that is stillhaving an impact.
We also acknowledge the journey, like you said, folks who are
maybe just picking up on oh, Ihave experienced trauma.
What is this?
I'm starting to unpack it.
And then we continue to lookforward and carry forward.
When you think about liberationpsychology, what vision comes
(17:47):
to mind for you of where thefield could go, the field of
mental health, in however manyhandful of years?
What would you like it to looklike?
Dr. Thema Bryant (17:57):
Yeah, I would love us to embody the thing that
we're supposedly facilitatingright, you know, to not be these
like stressed out mental healthprofessionals angry, aggressive
, divisive, irritable, shut down.
(18:19):
I would like us to actually bewell.
You know, and many of us,whether we can think about
clinics.
We've worked in research labs,we've worked in faculties, we've
served on, have encountered alot of people who, as a result
of self-erasure, self-neglect,are actually not doing well.
(18:42):
And you know, I think, for ourstudents and early career people
you know, I named that for thembecause I can remember how it's
startling, because I think whenI went into the field you just
have an I had an assumption thatpeople who chose to do this
work would have done some workright, that you weren't just
(19:06):
like reading those articles forother people, but to have like
some self-awareness and insight.
So you know, because I havedegrees both in psychology and
in religion and spirituality,I'm always struck by going to
conferences that are eitherfaith-based or psychology-based
(19:28):
and it feeling so tight andheavy.
Yes, yeah, what could wepossibly really be doing in the
world when we are so undoneourselves?
Yeah, ourselves.
So that's a part of what myhope is, and also for us to
release this notion that it'sjust all about the individual,
(19:54):
and we think that that's likehonoring our field.
If you talk about anythingbesides the individual, people
will say, oh, you're likesociology or your social work or
your political science, andit's to be unaware, especially
in this year we're in to not beaware that the outside affects
(20:15):
the inside.
It's just unbelievable.
So I would love us as a fieldto experience and encourage
healing and wellness forourselves, and I have visited a
number of programs wherestudents are told the importance
of self-care but then are givena structure that does not allow
(20:39):
for it, are penalized if theydare try to set a boundary.
I mean our system is very broken, our internship and training
system, just the fact that it isroutine that people who have
faced the most devastation arethe most likely to get people
(20:59):
who are untrained.
It's already like this is abroken system that the people
who are the highest functioningand therefore maybe have more
access to resources get the mostexperienced of us work to do.
(21:20):
You know, the AmericanPsychological Association passed
guidelines for the ethicaltreatment of graduate students.
I think that that wascontroversial, that, like, some
people were fighting againstthat.
It's like what is happening.
So we have both our internalwellness into our systems to
(21:43):
remake and recreate and to trainpeople to be attentive to the
bi-directional relationshipbetween us and the world in
which we live, and that includes, you know, training around
policy and advocacy.
Lisa Danylchuk (21:59):
Yeah.
You know, yeah, there's so manylayers to that that you're
speaking to and weaving together.
There's the exploitation ofstudents, right, and we were
just talking about colonialismand the expectation there and
the harm done there.
And the fact that people arepushing back towards the ethical
treatment of students speaksvolumes, right, why would we not
(22:23):
?
And I've actually known peoplewho've been in programs that
felt traumatic and toxic.
I've taught yoga for a number ofyears and people often ask me
about when people get triggeredin a yoga room and assume it's
going to look a certain way Likesomeone's going to be really
jittery.
One of the most visiblydysregulated people who's ever
(22:44):
shown up in a public yoga classof mine in a studio I have
always I worked with, I stoodreally grounded, right next to
them.
I softly checked in in asupportive way, you know, just
let them have their process,tried to manage the rest of the
room because people weredistracted, you know, trying to
keep the focus.
They came up after the classand said thank you so much.
(23:05):
I yeah, so you know, and I'vetaught in jails, in prison
programs, all over the world.
(23:33):
And yes, that's not seeing thatin the, but it's really
interesting that and I think,important that you're pointing
out we need to model this.
Dr. Thema Bryant (23:43):
Yes, Integrate this.
And the thing is in the storyyou told yes, it's N of one.
But if you told that to anygroup of graduate students, they
wouldn't be shocked.
No, they wouldn't be like oh,what were they distressed about?
Lisa Danylchuk (23:55):
Yeah, they're working hard, they're going to
school, they're not getting paid, they're paying a lot of money
all kinds of, and you're foldingin so many layers, which I
think this is really importantand and I was always more
attracted to like integrativeprograms, because even when
you're doing like a psychologyexperiment on rats, you're
(24:16):
looking at how the environmentimpacts them.
So like if we're not looking athow the environment impacts
everyone else, I think we've gota problem.
Dr. Thema Bryant (24:24):
Absolutely, Absolutely.
I say you know we can ask thesesuper personal questions about
people's sexuality, about theirdrug use, all of these things,
and then if you say to ask abouta stereotype or harassment or
stigma and they'll say, oh no,that's political, I don't want
to be political.
Are you kidding?
(24:44):
Like that's political.
Your silence is political.
Lisa Danylchuk (24:48):
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Thema Bryant (24:50):
So folding in awareness of economics, of
context, all the differentlayers, because it shows up in
all of our systems.
Marginalization shows up andnow, especially, heart goes out
to our researchers who are beinggiven this list of words that
(25:13):
the federal government doesn'twant to fund and to see like,
for those who weren't in anuproar, that race was on the
list.
To see trauma on the list rightVictims is on the list of
things they don't want to fund.
So this has caused people whosolely identified as scientists
(25:35):
to say, oh, I actually have apolitical agenda.
The agenda is to be able to dothis work for the betterment of
society, to be able to enhancepeople's lives.
So you know, even if I havebeen silent before, this silence
is not going to protect thefield.
Lisa Danylchuk (25:54):
Yeah, so what would you say to someone who's
struggling to find their voicein that?
Dr. Thema Bryant (26:02):
resist marginalization, resist
dehumanization, and there aremultiple ways to do that,
because oppression isinterdisciplinary.
(26:22):
It attacks us on all differentlevels, so the resistance is on
all different levels, and sothen you find you know what is
the pathway that aligns with you, that matches maybe your sphere
of influence, that matches yourpersonality.
There are, you know, differentways that we can do that.
So some people will go outmarching with signs and you'll
(26:45):
see, as I was saying, sometimesnow, more than marches, you'll
see scientists you know outthere holding their signs, or
the APA releasing statements tosay this action that's being
taken goes against the sciencethat we know.
So it can be these kind ofpublic statements.
It can also be, of course, withour voting to, not only on a
(27:06):
federal level, on a local leveland organizationally, to put
people in positions of power whoacknowledge context and who
embody a valuing of humanity.
Right, you know, acrossidentities.
So we can also think about.
One of the things I appreciateare people in the field who are
(27:29):
actually running for office.
We have information that noteveryone can access or wouldn't
even know to look for.
In Los Angeles, where I live,they have something called
neighborhood councils, and theneighborhood council is the
mediator between the communityand city council.
And so, a couple of years afterI moved out here, I decided to
(27:52):
run for the neighborhood council, and the seat that they had
open was on education.
And so, you know, I did myresearch, because you have to
make a speech before theelection, so I went on a website
.
The website is called GreatSchools and it rates all the
schools on a scale one to 10,based on these different
criteria.
And so the neighborhood that Iwas living in there was no
(28:17):
school in our neighborhood thathad over a four.
If you go a couple blocks downthe road to like our neighboring
community, they have eights andhigher.
And so, you know, I say that tostart my statement about how we
need to, you know, support ourschools, address our schools.
But I didn't even get to thesolution because the committee
(28:39):
this is, the people who arealready on neighborhood council
interrupted me because theywanted to know where did I get
those numbers from?
How are you, our neighborhoodleaders, and you don't know
where the data is right.
So of course they can'tadvocate for us because you
don't even know that we're inlike.
(29:00):
This is a crisis.
Lisa Danylchuk (29:01):
Right.
Dr. Thema Bryant (29:03):
So I say that to say as mental health
professionals, whetherpsychologists or other mental
health professionals, we gettrained in a skill set that can
benefit our communities, whetheryou want to be the front person
or whether you're going toprovide research to city council
that will help inform theirdecision making.
(29:24):
So they are all different waysfor us to engage.
Lisa Danylchuk (29:27):
There's something integrative in that
modeling that you're describingtoo, of branching out across
disciplines, of buildingrelationships.
No one of us is able to do italone, obviously, and so
building relationships, but alsostretching out, especially if
someone finds themselves in thecomfort of the small four walls
(29:50):
right, like just putting a toeout first and then your whole
arm and leg, and yes.
Dr. Thema Bryant (29:56):
I'll say along those lines you know, one of
the things I, you know, providetraining for our students then
is one, to think about gettingpublished, and then two, in your
publication to have policyimplications.
Yes, right, because some peopleare like, oh you know, I don't
want to go to city council,that's fine.
To go to city council, that'sfine.
But to recognize, even if myarticle is a case study right of
(30:26):
a client, like, what are theimplications for that for
clients who may have a similarexperience?
So I feel like that's a way, interms of people in their
comfort zone, that we can stillbe true to our science, or
however people want to thinkabout that, but to consider the
ripple effects of what you havefound is helpful.
Lisa Danylchuk (30:44):
Yes, I remember even 20 plus years ago, looking
at graduate programs and havinga hard time finding ones that
felt like it was going toconnect out more into the
community or into creating somekind of change, and finding ones
that were like socialinnovation and change, and then
looking and being like this isall math, like yeah, I could do
(31:04):
some of that, but I want to doright.
I don't just want to buildgraphs Like I want to
relationships, and so it'sencouraging to think about just
writing policy implications oreven the way we design studies
right.
I mean, we're doing researchwhere we looked at programs that
were super successful andpulled out qualitative data like
(31:25):
what's working well here.
Then funders, anyone who'slooking at how do I maximize my
input in this community?
Look for these mentorshiprelationships and look for this
unique fit and look for thesethemes that we're seeing that
are helping people be successful.
So we can do this in research,we can stretch out and build
relationships, maybe even runfor office ourselves.
(31:47):
And then I feel like there'sthis time that we're in where
we're hopefully building thishumanitarian, healing momentum,
spreading love and education anddignity and all these things.
And so what do we do in themeantime when we feel like maybe
(32:11):
larger forces of power don'thave our back or, you know, it
can feel like the differencebetween biking with the wind
behind you and biking with thewind in front of you.
Yes, I'm wondering if you everfeel that way or what.
Yeah, oh, all the time.
I mean it.
Just it seems like you arejoyfully riding your bike every
(32:33):
day.
It's on a celebrate that, andyeah when it just feels hard to
be standing up for somethingthat might feel obvious, like
ethical treatment of graduatestudents especially if the
persons who are holding a lot ofpower are pushing a different
(33:03):
agenda.
Dr. Thema Bryant (33:04):
You can feel alone or powerless, and so
finding like-minded people issuch a gift.
So, whether that is in yourworkplace and again this can be
globally, federally or evenlocally you know, I think about
times.
I've worked places that werenot a healthy workplace and just
(33:26):
having like someone in the roomI could catch eyes with it
makes all the difference.
Like we're going to talkafterwards, but I need to know
like someone else is seeing,like what is happening here, so
that you know social support,community support, makes a big
difference.
And then you know, rememberinghistory, you know that this is
(33:49):
not the first time that theideas and the values we have
have not been reflected inleadership, and so you know part
of it.
You know I love historians tolearn from history, right, when
people may not be exactly thesame, but when people face a
parallel circumstance, how didthey navigate?
(34:13):
How did they take care ofthemselves, how did they work
toward change collectively andstrategically?
So learning from history.
And then I'll say, from aspiritual perspective, and even
if someone is atheist oragnostic, I believe the mental
health field is rooted in afaith that things can be better
(34:37):
than they are right now.
Yeah, that's why we you know,why we do the research, why we
do the practice, why we'reteaching is it's a hope, right,
and some have talked about it asa radical hope, and it's
radical when it's in the face of, like, everything that's saying
that's not possible.
Lisa Danylchuk (34:54):
Yeah.
Dr. Thema Bryant (34:54):
Right.
So to nourish and feed ourspirits, so that we can remember
why we're here and what we'redoing.
And then I think one of theskills that therapists teach
that can be very helpful for usis learning how to count the
small wins, because sometimesit's like finish line or bust
(35:19):
right, that things can happenthat are actually good, but our
eyes are so focused on but thisand this and this, and it's not
that I want to ignore that, butif that's the only thing that is
praiseworthy, it's notsustainable.
So we want to be able to seethe small wins along the way
(35:41):
that help to encourage us.
Lisa Danylchuk (35:43):
Yeah, yeah, so we can build momentum from the
small wins, so we can also justappreciate our day-to-day life,
right?
Yes, knowing that we're doingsomething that feels meaningful,
and not waiting for someultimate perfection or some you
know point of peacefulmanifestation for everyone, you
(36:05):
know it's.
Yes, we're all interconnected,yes, there's a lot going on and,
yes, you can enjoy eating thatdonut or you can appreciate
making a beautiful quinoa salador you can right For you to say,
hey, I did that talk today andpeople were really engaged and
there's a lot of love in thatroom.
Dr. Thema Bryant (36:23):
Yeah, and that's the thing you know.
The scholars in post-traumaticgrowth talk about how growth and
despair can coexist.
Yes, Right, Because there's alot going on.
So you can say you know, as itrelates to that, my heart breaks
for that.
You know, I'm celebrating mykid who made it on honor roll or
whatever those layers there areto culture right.
We're talking about culturewithin the mental health field.
Lisa Danylchuk (36:45):
We're talking about culture within the US and
the larger world.
What are some ways that you'veseen culture be really healing
(37:10):
for people?
Dr. Thema Bryant (37:11):
Yeah.
So a big part of culture is thearts, and I mentioned I love
the arts.
So it can be healing to sing,healing to hear and write poetry
, healing to dance, and I loveembodied healing, somatic
healing, moving our bodies.
(37:33):
So both art production and artappreciation, right, that, even
if you're not the artist seeingartwork or hearing it, you know
is therapeutic right.
It can be very healing.
It is self-expression,community expression, being seen
, being heard, being known,being valued.
(37:57):
I remember I was at a poetrycoffee house in Boston.
I used to live in Boston for myinternship in postdoc and I
shared whatever piece I sharedthat week.
Someone came up to meafterwards and said your poems
feel like church.
I said that's good, that's whatit's meant to be, right.
(38:19):
You got three minutes to shiftan environment, right.
What is it you want to conveyin that three minutes?
And so, yeah, so art as acultural reflection.
Cultural values can also bemedicinal when they are
intentional as it relates tohumanity.
(38:41):
One of the cultural values canbe the collective right that
we're interwoven, that we'reinterrelated, that our lives
affect other people's lives, andso this sense of you know that
I matter, I just by being amember of this community there
(39:02):
are, you know, people who careabout me, who care about my well
being.
You know, some of us thinkabout that as chosen family or
some it's like our culturalidentity family.
To again have that sense ofsupport can be very helpful.
To again have that sense ofsupport can be very helpful.
And you know, so we can thinkabout cultural values, cultural
(39:24):
arts and then communitygathering, being present with
each other, because sometimeswhen we're suffering we isolate,
and so if we can remember thegift that can happen in each
other's presence.
You know, scientifically we cantalk about that as
co-regulation right, the waysthat some people can just soothe
(39:46):
our nervous system by us beingpresent, even if we don't say
anything.
Lisa Danylchuk (39:51):
Yeah, yeah, yeah .
Those are the colleagues Irefer to the most, the ones that
, when I see them, I'm just like, ah, thank you for existing we
don't have to talk aboutanything.
Dr. Thema Bryant (40:04):
Oh, feels good .
Lisa Danylchuk (40:08):
And I have this vision, as you're talking of,
almost like a summer camp kindof environment, like, even for
adults.
So many of us I'm veryparticular with where and how I
get my news, but I feel like, asadults, the entertainment is TV
or news or going online forthose things and like what if it
were dancing with yourneighbors?
(40:29):
What if it were even just likeplaying music or you know, like
live music every night?
You know like, if you do thisas special occasions, I'm gonna
go to a concert or this or that,but what if the everyday habit
were singing?
Dr. Thema Bryant (40:43):
What if the everyday?
Lisa Danylchuk (40:44):
habit were dancing, and so all of us.
I have to remind myself becauseI can get all up in my head
like, oh, stop, just play somemusic.
Dr. Thema Bryant (40:52):
Right, yes, so true.
I remember I was blessed to goto a psychology conference in
Puerto Rico and in the eveningsjust there's no special
occasions, they just had likeoutdoor music, and so you know,
you're just like listen to themusic and dance I was going for
broke just dancing, dancing, andyeah, it's healing, it's
(41:16):
beautiful it is and I've seenthat even at psychology
conferences.
Lisa Danylchuk (41:20):
Even ISSD has had bands and dancing.
At the end it's like okay thisis a step in the right direction
.
For sure, that's it.
Dr. Thema Bryant (41:27):
Great, great, well people.
We had flash mobs at the APAconvention when I was president.
My daughter did thechoreography and people are like
are we dancing at APA?
Yes, yes we are.
Lisa Danylchuk (41:42):
Yes, let's keep that going too.
So you mentioned and you talk alot about community care and
self-care, not falling into thisfalse dichotomy, like we have
to pick one or the other.
We are interwoven.
We are also individual humans,like let's have a bubble bath
and get paid maternity leave andlike have a walk with a friend
(42:02):
and all the layers, right, likewe don't have to just pick one.
And I know your book.
You wrote Homecoming First andMatters of the Heart Second and
there's it seems that there'sthat like relational progression
, right, coming home to yourself, and I saw a clip of you I
think it was from a while backwhere you were like let me just
give some dating advice forthose people in the crowd.
Show up as yourself from dayone, right?
Dr. Thema Bryant (42:25):
Like just let them know if you don't make it
then you don't.
Lisa Danylchuk (42:28):
That's not.
Don't, don't pretend like youdo that's it.
Dr. Thema Bryant (42:31):
Right, yeah, save a lot of time and then you
can find who aligns, who matcheswith that.
Lisa Danylchuk (42:41):
So true, yeah.
Dr. Thema Bryant (42:43):
We're often pretending and I say that in a
non-shaming way, because we'retaught that we see, we observe
that you get treated differentlyif you say the things people
want to hear or if you dress theway people say you're supposed.
You know, if you follow theserules, you may be rewarded but
not fulfilled.
Lisa Danylchuk (43:03):
Yes.
So, choosing that fulfillment,choosing that honesty, and it's
not like any of us, is this onesingle entity being that static?
Like we can evolve and changefor sure.
Like we can evolve and changefor sure, but the intention to
honor ourselves, yeah, first tocome home to ourselves, right
(43:23):
first, or have that as an anchor, and then to be in relationship
.
And I'm just aware, as we'retalking, like there's so the
layers of this.
It's like I'm part ukrainianand they make these beautiful
eggs, the easter eggs that layerout right the little.
There's one inside, another oneinside, another one inside,
another one inside.
And if we go down to, okay, theindividual human and then in
relationship and in family andin community and in country and
(43:48):
in world, there's just theselayers of things interacting
when we talk about healing, whenwe talk about hope for positive
change.
So I'm curious, since your lastbook, matters of the Heart,
came out, what are someconversations that are happening
at that level around healing?
Dr. Thema Bryant (44:07):
you know, attachment or healing in
relationship, yeah, One of thechapters that really resonates
with people is releasing peoplewho don't love you, and I think
you know many people strugglewith that.
You know they're just hopingthat they can win people over,
(44:29):
that they can convince them orthat, if they love them hard
enough and long enough, that youknow somehow that somehow
things will turn around.
And so the importance of mutualreciprocal relationships and
whether it's romantic or familyor friendship, that when people
(44:50):
are not choosing you to releasethem by honoring the truth, they
have already made a decision.
So you holding on is holding onto nothing, right.
They're not there, and so thathas been an important part of
healing.
And then another area that hasresonated with a lot of people
(45:10):
is around harshness.
Some of us grew up in difficultcircumstances so, you know, can
be in warrior mode, can be kindof hyper-independent, are
hyper-vigilant, and so to heal,to allow space in our hearts, in
our bodies, in our lives, forgentleness and that gentleness
(45:34):
is not weakness, so thatrequires some unlearning
definitely, yeah, yeah, and thegentleness inward with ourselves
and the gentleness with others,even when there is an important
boundary to set, even when it'sokay.
Lisa Danylchuk (45:48):
I'm not feeling like this person gets me, is on
my side, loves me, and I need tomake some space.
There are are ways to do thatavoidantly.
There are ways to do thatconfrontationally.
There are ways to do thatgently, not to say it's going to
be smooth or perfect, but mightbe a little bit less edgy or
(46:11):
softer, have less cleanup.
Wow.
So you mentioned earlier beinga woman in the world or being a
parent in the world.
I'm also thinking about thisletting go when there are kids
involved or kids who are feelingthe need to let their parents
(46:32):
go.
What would you say to someonewho's facing some of those
decisions where there's such astrong desire for attachment?
It's one thing to say don'tread the comments, right.
It's one thing to say there'salways going to be someone out
there critiquing your work orsomeone who's in a bad mood, who
wants to drop a bomb in thecomments, and easier to let that
(46:54):
go.
But if it's someone in yourfamily or someone where there's
so much investment, yeah, yeah,so important.
Dr. Thema Bryant (47:01):
And so you know, I think it's important
therapeutically to start fromthe vantage point of, like, all
of the options being on thetable Right.
So it may be we're going toleave things as they are and I'm
just trying to figure out howto cope more so I don't get so
distressed by it or I stop beingdisappointed when people
(47:22):
continue to be the same way theyare.
So that may be like theacceptance and the coping
strategies.
The other end of the spectrumare people who say, for my
mental health, or sometimes evenfor my physical or financial
safety, I cannot be inrelationship with this person
anymore and so I'm removing themfrom my life.
But then there's a whole areain the middle of that, which is
(47:47):
you know, what would it mean forme to be in relationship with
boundaries right, with arelationship with requirements,
in relationship with standards?
And I especially explore thatwith people who are suffering
with the way things are butperhaps religiously or
culturally or just bypersonality, have removed from
(48:11):
the table the possibility ofending the connection right.
Religiously, they may feel likeI have to honor my parents, and
it is a value of mine.
So then, helping people tothink through some curiosities.
So, for example, let's say,your family member or relative
(48:32):
doesn't treat you kindly or withrespect, do you really have to
spend every weekend at theirhouse?
Right, you know?
Because even though, like,that's how we've always done it,
everyone goes over all daySaturday, all day Sunday, you
know.
So ritual or tradition is not arule.
So, you know, let's considerone, the amount of time and the
(48:56):
amount of access that we'regiving people, and then the
times that I am there.
You know what would help it tofeel better for me If there is a
member of the family I feelsafe with, to ensure that I'm
seated next to them.
Some of us, you know you canvolunteer to be with the kids.
Some families have like thekids table or the kids room and
(49:17):
say, yep, let me go over withthe kids, it's less drama.
Or you know I'm going to comelate and leave early, and you
know, I know people are going totalk about me, but that's okay,
I just need to reduce my time.
And then also, you can beexplicit with your, with your
request of saying you know I'mcoming, but if someone does this
(49:41):
or someone says this, I'm goingto take my kids and leave.
So then everybody knows that,and if they willingly still do
that, well then you know, seeyou all next year, or maybe not.
Right so to give ourselvescause.
Sometimes we feel stuck andthink there are no options and
(50:02):
there could be some options.
Lisa Danylchuk (50:04):
Yeah, lots in the middle.
Yeah, it's the cognitivedistortion of all or nothing.
Right, I've got to be totallyenmeshed in this thing.
That doesn't feel good, or I'vegot to leave, and there's
boundaries in the middle andsometimes that's harder, which
is why we go to the extremes,right, right, yeah, there are so
many layers to your work and somany different themes.
(50:25):
I've seen you touch on that.
I'm like, oh, there's so much Iwant to talk about, and we're
coming closer to time.
You know Dr Jennifer Gomez, sheintroduced you at the ISSTD.
I always shout her out.
She talks about dreamstorming,going to the dream and then just
living there for a little whileand then we can pull some
insights into the present.
So I'm curious in your dreamstorm into a world where
(50:51):
liberation psychology has beenso downloaded and implemented,
can you imagine a world whereresistance is no longer
necessary?
And what does that world looklike?
Dr. Thema Bryant (51:06):
I think there are different forms of
resistance, yeah, and I canimagine a world where it is less
necessary.
Okay, but the reason I wouldstill say to have some aspect of
it is just in our knowing ofhuman beings, and so those that
(51:26):
greed can creep in, thosecontrol things can creep in.
And the thing that I'm mindfulof is people who have exit
religion because they say likeit's controlling, and then they
have these spiritual groups andthe same hierarchy stuff shows
up.
Yeah, you know they're like whodid you train with in yoga?
right exactly, oh, uh.
(51:49):
So I would say I do imagine aworld where we can have more
ease in our bodies, more easewith each other, more ease in
our spirits, where it is notperpetual warfare, and I welcome
that.
I dream it, but then alsoworking to create it right, to
(52:13):
make it so, and we can do that.
All of us can play a role inco-creating a world where we
don't just have to be insurvival or combat mode.
Lisa Danylchuk (52:26):
Yeah.
Dr. Thema Bryant (52:27):
Yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk (52:28):
Yeah, and when you say the resistance is still
necessary, part of what I hearin that is intentionality is
intentionality.
Part of what I hear in that ispower of knowing that whatever
is going on outside, you canbring something.
And even you know, as we'rethinking about this, how do we
grow into something that feelsbetter for everyone, where there
(52:50):
is more ease, where it's safeto be embodied, where we're not
always in fight, flight, freezeor all these other reactions.
It's like okay, well, we canhave a sense of power and agency
and we can create andacknowledge the times where
we're connected, the times wherethere's joy.
You mentioned earlier, too,having a few people decolonizing
(53:15):
training in psychology.
Can you give a shout out to afew names or theories you would
love to see in textbooks andtraining programs?
Dr. Thema Bryant (53:23):
Yes, I am super excited.
This timing is perfect.
I was just co-editor of the newspecial issue released by the
American Psychologist.
It was one of my presidentialinitiatives and just came to
press and it's Decolonial andLiberation Psychologies.
I encourage people to read thatspecial issue.
(53:45):
And then there are booksactually published by APA one on
liberation psychology, one ondecolonial psychology.
I also co-edited a book withLillian Comos Diaz on womanist
and Mujerista psychologies, sothe psychologies of Black women
(54:07):
and Latinas.
I encourage people to look atthe work of Helen Neville around
justice and joy, especially aswe think about our trauma work.
Judith Herman, talking aboutthe.
You know the ways in whichvictims define justice like.
What does justice look like forpeople?
And then the reclamation of joy.
Lisa Danylchuk (54:26):
Mm-hmm, on that note, the reclamation of joy.
What brings you joy today,dancing?
Dr. Thema Bryant (54:33):
brings me joy today.
In fact, this weekend I'll betraveling to visit my father,
who's 82.
And last year my momtransitioned and so I'm excited
to still have my dad in the landof the living.
And I'll say I still have joyas well about my mom's spirit,
(54:54):
that her presence is definitelywith me and I feel that and see
that.
And I have joy about those whoare coming into the field, who
are, you know, our students, ourearly career folks who are
visionary and passionate.
And because I do believe in thegift of being intergenerational
(55:17):
, I have joy as I think about mymentors in the field, the ways
in which they poured into me andcontinue to pour into me such a
blessing.
Lisa Danylchuk (55:29):
Yeah, definitely .
So where can someone go if theywant to learn more and stay
connected with you?
Dr. Thema Bryant (55:35):
Yeah, so my website is drthemacom
D-R-T-H-E-M-A.
If folks are on Instagram, I'mthere as Dr D-R period Thema.
The books I want to name inaddition to the hardback and the
digital, there's also audiobooks, and I was so excited that
(55:57):
they let me read the booksmyself, and so the books are
available.
And then, of course, theHomecoming podcast, which is on
YouTube, spotify, soundcloud,itunes.
Lisa Danylchuk (56:10):
Nice, I love it.
Thank you so much, dr Tama.
Dr. Thema Bryant (56:14):
Thank you.
Lisa Danylchuk (56:15):
Can I ask you one more thing?
Dr. Thema Bryant (56:17):
Yes.
Lisa Danylchuk (56:20):
When Dr Gomez introduced you at ISSTD, she
said okay, the floor is allyours, queen, and I was like oh,
so nice.
You said that she's like no,there's a story behind it.
Do you mind sharing the story?
Dr. Thema Bryant (56:31):
Absolutely so.
My first name is Tama and itmeans queen, and my parents gave
me that name.
We're African-American and Ifeel it is such a gift that
wherever I go, whether peoplewant to or not, when they say my
name, they are honoring me andI receive that as a treasure
(56:55):
that my parents intentionallygave me.
Lisa Danylchuk (56:58):
What a beautiful gift.
Yeah so, Queen.
Thank you, Dr Tema.
So appreciate you coming on andsharing your wisdom with us.
Dr. Thema Bryant (57:09):
Thank you for a beautiful conversation,
wonderful questions and yourgreat heart.
Lisa Danylchuk (57:15):
Oh, thank you.
(57:41):
Oh, where you'll find me at howwe Can Heal.
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(58:03):
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Visit howwecanhealcom forwardslash podcast to share your
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I always, always, love hearingfrom you.
Before we wrap up for today, Iwant to be super clear that this
(58:25):
podcast isn't offeringprescriptions.
It's not advice, nor is it anykind of mental health treatment
or diagnosis.
Your decisions are in yourhands and I encourage you to
consult with any healthcareprofessionals you may need to
support you through your uniquepath of healing.
In addition, everyone's opinionhere is their own and opinions
(58:47):
can change.
Guests share their thoughts,not that of the host or sponsors
.
I'd like to thank our gueststoday and everyone who helped
support this podcast, directlyand indirectly.
Alex, thanks for taking care ofthe babe and taking the fur
babies out while I record.
Last and never least, I'd liketo give a special shout out to
(59:08):
my big brother, matt, who passedaway in 2002.
He wrote this music and itmakes my heart so very happy to
share it with you here.
Welcome back to the how we Can Heal podcast.
Today, our guest is Dr ThemaBryant.
Dr Thema Bryant is apsychologist, author, professor,
sacred artist and ministerwho's leading the way in
creating healthy relationships,healing traumas and overcoming
stress and oppression.
She completed her doctorate inclinical psychology at Duke
(00:27):
University and her postdoctoraltraining at Harvard Medical
Center's Victims of Violenceprogram, and is currently a
tenured professor of psychologyin the Graduate School of
Education and Psychology atPepperdine University, where she
directs the Culture and TraumaResearch Laboratory.
Dr Tama has received countlessaccolades and awards, including
(00:48):
the 2013 American PsychologicalAssociation Award for
Distinguished Early CareerContributions to Psychology in
the Public Interest, and in 2023, she received the Silverman
Lifetime Achievement Award forSocial Justice in Psychology.
Among her many leadershippositions, she served as
(01:09):
president of the AmericanPsychological Association in
2023.
Dr Tama has written many books,most recently Matters of the
Heart, which encourages readersto build authentic and
fulfilling relationships withthemselves and the people in
their lives.
Today, we talk about creatinglasting positive change within
(01:30):
the field of psychology.
Dr Tama shares how embracingour whole selves can bring
healing and how key principlesof decolonial and liberation
psychology can help us addressharm and promote healing across
contexts.
She shares tools, stories andreminds us of the ways in which
hope is at the foundation of allmental health work.
(01:52):
I'm beyond thrilled to sharethis conversation with you today
, so please join me in welcomingDr Tama Bryant to the show.
The more you learn about trauma,the more you see it everywhere.
It's a superpower to see it,and it's also necessary to see
(02:13):
beyond it.
This fall, I'm offering a newclass Freedom from Trauma.
In it, I'll describe why it'sessential for us to identify
trauma and how we can approachhealing in a way that we don't
end up swimming.
In it You'll learn simple, notalways easy perspective and
practices to help you move outof the trauma vortex and stand
(02:35):
in something stronger and morepowerful than the impacts of
harm.
I'm looking forward to sharingwhat I know with you in this new
way.
Visit howwecanhealcom forwardslash freedom from trauma to
register for the training.
Dr Thema Bryant, so excited tohave you on the how we Can Heal
(02:57):
podcast Welcome.
Dr. Thema Bryant (02:59):
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm excited for theconversation.
Lisa Danylchuk (03:03):
So I saw your plenary at the ISSTD conference
and I was blown away by it,thought everyone needs to hear
this and of course we can'trepeat all of that now.
But I'm curious for you, withall of the work that you're
doing.
I see you on social media.
You've been president of APAand other organizations.
You are out there.
You are a force for joy andlove and authenticity and
(03:27):
connection and all thesebeautiful things and I feel like
we all need that all the timeand we really need it right now.
Yes, so I'm wondering for youwhat's felt the most alive in
your work lately?
What are the ideas, thethoughts, the conversations that
feel most alive for you rightnow?
Dr. Thema Bryant (03:45):
Yeah, what I am really thrilled about in this
season is the integration ofthe different aspects of my work
and the different aspects of mylife.
So I'm an artistic person, I'm aspiritual person, of course, a
mental health person, and inearlier seasons of my life those
(04:07):
were very kind of separatecommunities.
So, you know, I would spendtime with creatives, I would
spend time with people of faith,I would spend time with mental
health professionals and, youknow, can speak each of those
languages very comfortably andfluently those languages very
(04:28):
comfortably and fluently.
But it has been a beautifuljourney of merging all of that
and being present with all ofthat at the same time and seeing
the ripple effects of that One.
Most of us are multi-layeredand so it becomes kind of
contagious and comforting whenwe raise these different aspects
of ourselves, then people canjoin in and say, like me too,
(04:50):
right, or this is my art, orthis is my faith walk.
And I'm excited about not beingsegregated within myself and
with other people, but to beinviting for us to engage with
our whole selves.
Lisa Danylchuk (05:07):
Yes, and when we do that?
I've heard you mention peoplecoming up and whispering things
to you, right?
Dr. Thema Bryant (05:14):
It's so lovely because, you know, we have
directly and indirectly beengiven the message that we have
to leave ourselves in themargins and what I have found is
the more we show upauthentically.
Instead of that being a closeddoor for other people, it
becomes an invitation.
(05:34):
When I was president of theAmerican Psychological
Association, one of the days ofthe convention we invited people
to wear attire or pins orjewelry that represented some
aspect of their identity, and Iremember I was so moved by one
of our Jewish colleagues whoshared that convention was her
(05:55):
first time wearing the Star ofDavid to convention to feel safe
enough to be present in who sheis, enough to be present in who
she is.
And you know, that's what it'sabout.
I think people's fear is thatif I announce that and I have on
African attire, then everyoneelse will feel somehow
suppressed or silenced or notwelcomed.
But like we all get to be thefullness of who we are, whatever
(06:19):
that is.
Lisa Danylchuk (06:19):
Yeah, and it can give encouragement.
I was going to say permission,but there's like a I don't know
false sense of separation andpower in that Right, and it can
give encouragement.
I was going to say permission,but there's like a I don't know
false sense of separation andpower in that Right, but it can
just give encouragement.
Hey, here's who I am, and thenwho's maybe tucked away this way
or that way?
Oh, me too In this other way.
Dr. Thema Bryant (06:37):
Yes, yes, it's beautiful.
Lisa Danylchuk (06:40):
You're teaching in a school of education, right?
Yeah, well, it's education andpsychology.
Dr. Thema Bryant (06:44):
It's a combined department.
Lisa Danylchuk (06:45):
I'm curious too about that integration with
psychology and education,because I feel like what you're
doing is taking all the depth ofthe clinical awareness and work
and then just putting it out inbooks and in talks.
Everybody, take this, run withit, take what it needs, keep it
going, bring it to therapy,bring it wherever you're going,
(07:09):
but there's something about thiseducation element of psychology
that also feels reallyimportant right now.
Dr. Thema Bryant (07:12):
Right Part of it reflects that model of
decolonial or liberationpsychology which is for us not
to be elitist with our knowledgeor information, that it's not
just for the academy, to the fewwho can subscribe to these
journals or even understand ourjargon, that it is not just for
those who have the financialmeans or access to therapy.
(07:35):
But how do we share our science?
And so, for me, great ways toshare it are the books, social
media, the podcast, and to makeit accessible and usable To me.
There's liberation in that.
Lisa Danylchuk (07:53):
And your talk at the ISSTD.
You talked about decolonialpsychology and you focused
really on liberation psychology.
So I want to break those down alittle bit for listeners.
Some people are familiar, Somepeople might not be.
Break those down a little bitfor listeners.
Some people are familiar, somepeople might not be.
You define decolonialpsychology as deconstructing the
harmful impacts of colonialismso that we can see the truth of
(08:13):
the harm that's happened.
That's right.
Is there anything more you wantto say about that?
Because then I want to talkfull in to liberation psychology
.
Dr. Thema Bryant (08:21):
Yes, yes.
So you know, we can think aboutwhat it means to colonize.
To colonize is to extract, totake, to dehumanize, demean, to
use, right, not for the benefitof those who are being used, but
for the benefit of those inpower.
(08:42):
And so, when we understand whatcolonialism is, decolonizing
should not be controversial,right?
So for people who are like, ah,I'm against that, you're
against what, you're againststopping extraction, right,
you're against stealing people'sresources, like what is it
you're against?
And so I brought in that termbecause I think legally or
(09:07):
politically it can make sense topeople.
But I also mean it in terms ofin psychology, right.
So we can have very narrow,arrogant notions about healing.
Healing, you know, to even thinkand I say this as someone who
has been to therapy, whoprovides therapy, who provides
(09:29):
training for future therapistsbut for us to believe that, in
all of human history, that theonly way to heal is through
psychotherapy is just outrageous, right.
Like you know, therapies arerelatively, in a traditional
sense, the way we think about it.
It's a relatively young fieldand in many countries there may
(09:51):
be like less than fivepsychologists in the space.
So to decolonize is also for usto have humility, cultural
humility to say yes, we know thethings that we know, and there
are many, many ways that humanbeings have not only survived
(10:12):
but thrived and healed andflourished, and so for us to see
ourselves in that landscape,not as the only road, and in a
lot of our curriculum so there'sthe saying like decolonize the
curriculum, that when we name,like who are the great minds in
(10:35):
psychology, and if that list isonly white, straight,
able-bodied men, then like we'remissing it so we're not adding
other names to do them a favor.
Right, it's not tokenism, it islike the richness, the wealth of
the field that if you reallywant to be of service to the
world, then we want a psychologythat's informed by the world,
(11:00):
and many times those readings,that literature has not been
mandated nor amplified orhighlighted, and so then we are.
I call it half healing.
You know, it's not that thesethings that are highlighted
don't work at all, it's justthey're not the only way.
And so we want to preparepeople to have like a full
(11:22):
toolkit of all of the differentrich ways that we can go about
this healing work.
Lisa Danylchuk (11:30):
Yeah, it's so important that you mentioned.
People have been healingthroughout time and in so many
ways, and oftentimes newmodalities come up and then
people go oh, that's kind oflike what people have been doing
for a long time over here andlike what people have been doing
for a long time over here, andit's like what people have been
doing for a long time over there.
Yes, sometimes there's aconnection or a nod to it, but
not always, and I always feltlike man.
(11:51):
I wish I could just live in asmall group of people and just
be the person in the corner overhere that people came to to
talk to when they were upset,like I don't need to have an
office.
No-transcript community.
Dr. Thema Bryant (12:30):
Yeah, you know the way we're trained.
It's like a bad thing that,like you, might run into
somebody in a store right Likeoh no, they saw me.
Lisa Danylchuk (12:39):
Oh my goodness, what are we going to do?
Dr. Thema Bryant (12:43):
Versus.
You know, I remember one of myfirst positions after I
graduated was at PrincetonUniversity in student health
services, but particularly aprogram called SHARE to address
sexual assault and partner abuseand harassment based on sexual
orientation.
And I just remember like themore campus events I went to,
(13:05):
the better, because then peoplesee you just being human and are
like, oh, I think that'ssomeone I could talk to.
And so you know, it's not likerunning and hiding that we only
exist in these four walls, butto be approachable and
accessible.
Lisa Danylchuk (13:22):
Yeah, it's much more the humane and the human
side right, and there's like aclinical, scientific side, and
I've heard you talk about thislike, well, yeah, we want to be
informed by science 100% and wedon't want to be stifled by it,
like we're full humans, justlike earlier, integrating all
these parts, bringing your voice, bringing song, bringing dance
(13:44):
bringing spirituality and notfeeling like we have to talk.
Dr. Thema Bryant (13:47):
I was telling students in my classes past
semester you are the secretsauce right.
We're going to teach you thesemodels, these interventions.
There are some sentences orscripts you might remember, but
all of that has to wash throughthe authenticity of yourself.
We know the big predictor interms of what's helpful is the
(14:10):
relationship, and people don'tbuild relationship just based on
your techniques.
They are building relationshipbased on your personhood.
So like be present.
Lisa Danylchuk (14:20):
Yeah yeah, it's not just AI telling you to say
more about that.
Dr. Thema Bryant (14:26):
Yes.
Lisa Danylchuk (14:27):
Oh, oh, my goodness.
I heard recently I know this isa whole other topic, but I
heard recently someone say thatthey were studying some mental
health AI and there were bigproblems with some of them.
But one of the funny problemswas that it brought it back to
the mother way too much, it'slike.
Tell me more about your mother.
What did your mother say to you?
Dr. Thema Bryant (14:42):
So, yeah, right, some things have not
changed.
You know, blaming and shamingwomen.
Lisa Danylchuk (14:48):
Right, yeah, so let's talk a bit about
liberation psychology and maybewe can talk about, you know,
feminism in there too.
I guess you just brought thatup and there's a lot going on
with being a woman in the world,being a parent in the world.
But liberation psychology, asyou described it in the lecture
I attended, you were talkingabout it as a roadmap, right,
(15:10):
Like, where are we going?
Okay, so we look back and wegive a nod, we acknowledge the
harm of colonialism, past andpresent.
We look at that, we see it forwhat it is.
That's a very important andhelpful step.
And then and there was a wordyou used it was like a bird
flying forward and looking back.
Dr. Thema Bryant (15:28):
Sankofa.
Sankofa, yes, that's beautiful.
So you know, sankofa is a WestAfrican symbol, a bird flying
forward and looking back.
And the idea is, as we progress, we don't forget those who are
still coming up behind us, sothat we can create the way for
them, so we can meet peoplewhere they are.
(15:49):
And so, with decolonial work,as you mentioned, we're
deconstructing, and some peoplehave critiqued that like well,
that still centers colonialism,right?
So you know, the partner tothat is liberation, which is
what are we building?
Lisa Danylchuk (16:05):
Yeah.
Dr. Thema Bryant (16:06):
We don't want to only center what is wrong,
but to get a vision, for youknow, what would it look like
for me as an individual to befree, what would it look like
for the members of my family tobe free?
What would it look like formembers of my community to be
free?
And what would it look like forpeople who don't mirror my
reflection to be free?
What would it look like formembers of my community to be
free?
And what would it look like forpeople who don't mirror my
(16:27):
reflection to be free?
Because sometimes what we havegotten into is people want
freedom for themselves, but noone else, which is just
privilege, right?
It's not real.
You know, liberation isinterwoven, it is collective.
It cannot be on the backs ofother people's bondage.
And so for us to think throughwhat that looks like, what that
(16:50):
feels like, and to helpfacilitate that process, which
shows up in many, many differentways.
We can think aboutpost-traumatic growth, we can
think about positive psychology,that we are not only focused on
symptom cessation or distressreduction, but what will it look
(17:12):
like for people to live fully,freely, abundantly, and then to
go about actively doing thatwork, to co-create it?
Lisa Danylchuk (17:21):
Yeah, so we look back, we acknowledge the harm
that's been done, that is stillhaving an impact.
We also acknowledge the journey, like you said, folks who are
maybe just picking up on oh, Ihave experienced trauma.
What is this?
I'm starting to unpack it.
And then we continue to lookforward and carry forward.
When you think about liberationpsychology, what vision comes
(17:47):
to mind for you of where thefield could go, the field of
mental health, in however manyhandful of years?
What would you like it to looklike?
Dr. Thema Bryant (17:57):
Yeah, I would love us to embody the thing that
we're supposedly facilitatingright, you know, to not be these
like stressed out mental healthprofessionals angry, aggressive
, divisive, irritable, shut down.
(18:19):
I would like us to actually bewell.
You know, and many of us,whether we can think about
clinics.
We've worked in research labs,we've worked in faculties, we've
served on, have encountered alot of people who, as a result
of self-erasure, self-neglect,are actually not doing well.
(18:42):
And you know, I think, for ourstudents and early career people
you know, I named that for thembecause I can remember how it's
startling, because I think whenI went into the field you just
have an I had an assumption thatpeople who chose to do this
work would have done some workright, that you weren't just
(19:06):
like reading those articles forother people, but to have like
some self-awareness and insight.
So you know, because I havedegrees both in psychology and
in religion and spirituality,I'm always struck by going to
conferences that are eitherfaith-based or psychology-based
(19:28):
and it feeling so tight andheavy.
Yes, yeah, what could wepossibly really be doing in the
world when we are so undoneourselves?
Yeah, ourselves.
So that's a part of what myhope is, and also for us to
release this notion that it'sjust all about the individual,
(19:54):
and we think that that's likehonoring our field.
If you talk about anythingbesides the individual, people
will say, oh, you're likesociology or your social work or
your political science, andit's to be unaware, especially
in this year we're in to not beaware that the outside affects
(20:15):
the inside.
It's just unbelievable.
So I would love us as a fieldto experience and encourage
healing and wellness forourselves, and I have visited a
number of programs wherestudents are told the importance
of self-care but then are givena structure that does not allow
(20:39):
for it, are penalized if theydare try to set a boundary.
I mean our system is very broken, our internship and training
system, just the fact that it isroutine that people who have
faced the most devastation arethe most likely to get people
(20:59):
who are untrained.
It's already like this is abroken system that the people
who are the highest functioningand therefore maybe have more
access to resources get the mostexperienced of us work to do.
(21:20):
You know, the AmericanPsychological Association passed
guidelines for the ethicaltreatment of graduate students.
I think that that wascontroversial, that, like, some
people were fighting againstthat.
It's like what is happening.
So we have both our internalwellness into our systems to
(21:43):
remake and recreate and to trainpeople to be attentive to the
bi-directional relationshipbetween us and the world in
which we live, and that includes, you know, training around
policy and advocacy.
Lisa Danylchuk (21:59):
Yeah.
You know, yeah, there's so manylayers to that that you're
speaking to and weaving together.
There's the exploitation ofstudents, right, and we were
just talking about colonialismand the expectation there and
the harm done there.
And the fact that people arepushing back towards the ethical
treatment of students speaksvolumes, right, why would we not
(22:23):
?
And I've actually known peoplewho've been in programs that
felt traumatic and toxic.
I've taught yoga for a number ofyears and people often ask me
about when people get triggeredin a yoga room and assume it's
going to look a certain way Likesomeone's going to be really
jittery.
One of the most visiblydysregulated people who's ever
(22:44):
shown up in a public yoga classof mine in a studio I have
always I worked with, I stoodreally grounded, right next to
them.
I softly checked in in asupportive way, you know, just
let them have their process,tried to manage the rest of the
room because people weredistracted, you know, trying to
keep the focus.
They came up after the classand said thank you so much.
(23:05):
I yeah, so you know, and I'vetaught in jails, in prison
programs, all over the world.
(23:33):
And yes, that's not seeing thatin the, but it's really
interesting that and I think,important that you're pointing
out we need to model this.
Dr. Thema Bryant (23:43):
Yes, Integrate this.
And the thing is in the storyyou told yes, it's N of one.
But if you told that to anygroup of graduate students, they
wouldn't be shocked.
No, they wouldn't be like oh,what were they distressed about?
Lisa Danylchuk (23:55):
Yeah, they're working hard, they're going to
school, they're not getting paid, they're paying a lot of money
all kinds of, and you're foldingin so many layers, which I
think this is really importantand and I was always more
attracted to like integrativeprograms, because even when
you're doing like a psychologyexperiment on rats, you're
(24:16):
looking at how the environmentimpacts them.
So like if we're not looking athow the environment impacts
everyone else, I think we've gota problem.
Dr. Thema Bryant (24:24):
Absolutely, Absolutely.
I say you know we can ask thesesuper personal questions about
people's sexuality, about theirdrug use, all of these things,
and then if you say to ask abouta stereotype or harassment or
stigma and they'll say, oh no,that's political, I don't want
to be political.
Are you kidding?
(24:44):
Like that's political.
Your silence is political.
Lisa Danylchuk (24:48):
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Thema Bryant (24:50):
So folding in awareness of economics, of
context, all the differentlayers, because it shows up in
all of our systems.
Marginalization shows up andnow, especially, heart goes out
to our researchers who are beinggiven this list of words that
(25:13):
the federal government doesn'twant to fund and to see like,
for those who weren't in anuproar, that race was on the
list.
To see trauma on the list rightVictims is on the list of
things they don't want to fund.
So this has caused people whosolely identified as scientists
(25:35):
to say, oh, I actually have apolitical agenda.
The agenda is to be able to dothis work for the betterment of
society, to be able to enhancepeople's lives.
So you know, even if I havebeen silent before, this silence
is not going to protect thefield.
Lisa Danylchuk (25:54):
Yeah, so what would you say to someone who's
struggling to find their voicein that?
Dr. Thema Bryant (26:02):
resist marginalization, resist
dehumanization, and there aremultiple ways to do that,
because oppression isinterdisciplinary.
(26:22):
It attacks us on all differentlevels, so the resistance is on
all different levels, and sothen you find you know what is
the pathway that aligns with you, that matches maybe your sphere
of influence, that matches yourpersonality.
There are, you know, differentways that we can do that.
So some people will go outmarching with signs and you'll
(26:45):
see, as I was saying, sometimesnow, more than marches, you'll
see scientists you know outthere holding their signs, or
the APA releasing statements tosay this action that's being
taken goes against the sciencethat we know.
So it can be these kind ofpublic statements.
It can also be, of course, withour voting to, not only on a
(27:06):
federal level, on a local leveland organizationally, to put
people in positions of power whoacknowledge context and who
embody a valuing of humanity.
Right, you know, acrossidentities.
So we can also think about.
One of the things I appreciateare people in the field who are
(27:29):
actually running for office.
We have information that noteveryone can access or wouldn't
even know to look for.
In Los Angeles, where I live,they have something called
neighborhood councils, and theneighborhood council is the
mediator between the communityand city council.
And so, a couple of years afterI moved out here, I decided to
(27:52):
run for the neighborhood council, and the seat that they had
open was on education.
And so, you know, I did myresearch, because you have to
make a speech before theelection, so I went on a website
.
The website is called GreatSchools and it rates all the
schools on a scale one to 10,based on these different
criteria.
And so the neighborhood that Iwas living in there was no
(28:17):
school in our neighborhood thathad over a four.
If you go a couple blocks downthe road to like our neighboring
community, they have eights andhigher.
And so, you know, I say that tostart my statement about how we
need to, you know, support ourschools, address our schools.
But I didn't even get to thesolution because the committee
(28:39):
this is, the people who arealready on neighborhood council
interrupted me because theywanted to know where did I get
those numbers from?
How are you, our neighborhoodleaders, and you don't know
where the data is right.
So of course they can'tadvocate for us because you
don't even know that we're inlike.
(29:00):
This is a crisis.
Lisa Danylchuk (29:01):
Right.
Dr. Thema Bryant (29:03):
So I say that to say as mental health
professionals, whetherpsychologists or other mental
health professionals, we gettrained in a skill set that can
benefit our communities, whetheryou want to be the front person
or whether you're going toprovide research to city council
that will help inform theirdecision making.
(29:24):
So they are all different waysfor us to engage.
Lisa Danylchuk (29:27):
There's something integrative in that
modeling that you're describingtoo, of branching out across
disciplines, of buildingrelationships.
No one of us is able to do italone, obviously, and so
building relationships, but alsostretching out, especially if
someone finds themselves in thecomfort of the small four walls
(29:50):
right, like just putting a toeout first and then your whole
arm and leg, and yes.
Dr. Thema Bryant (29:56):
I'll say along those lines you know, one of
the things I, you know, providetraining for our students then
is one, to think about gettingpublished, and then two, in your
publication to have policyimplications.
Yes, right, because some peopleare like, oh you know, I don't
want to go to city council,that's fine.
To go to city council, that'sfine.
But to recognize, even if myarticle is a case study right of
(30:26):
a client, like, what are theimplications for that for
clients who may have a similarexperience?
So I feel like that's a way, interms of people in their
comfort zone, that we can stillbe true to our science, or
however people want to thinkabout that, but to consider the
ripple effects of what you havefound is helpful.
Lisa Danylchuk (30:44):
Yes, I remember even 20 plus years ago, looking
at graduate programs and havinga hard time finding ones that
felt like it was going toconnect out more into the
community or into creating somekind of change, and finding ones
that were like socialinnovation and change, and then
looking and being like this isall math, like yeah, I could do
(31:04):
some of that, but I want to doright.
I don't just want to buildgraphs Like I want to
relationships, and so it'sencouraging to think about just
writing policy implications oreven the way we design studies
right.
I mean, we're doing researchwhere we looked at programs that
were super successful andpulled out qualitative data like
(31:25):
what's working well here.
Then funders, anyone who'slooking at how do I maximize my
input in this community?
Look for these mentorshiprelationships and look for this
unique fit and look for thesethemes that we're seeing that
are helping people be successful.
So we can do this in research,we can stretch out and build
relationships, maybe even runfor office ourselves.
(31:47):
And then I feel like there'sthis time that we're in where
we're hopefully building thishumanitarian, healing momentum,
spreading love and education anddignity and all these things.
And so what do we do in themeantime when we feel like maybe
(32:11):
larger forces of power don'thave our back or, you know, it
can feel like the differencebetween biking with the wind
behind you and biking with thewind in front of you.
Yes, I'm wondering if you everfeel that way or what.
Yeah, oh, all the time.
I mean it.
Just it seems like you arejoyfully riding your bike every
(32:33):
day.
It's on a celebrate that, andyeah when it just feels hard to
be standing up for somethingthat might feel obvious, like
ethical treatment of graduatestudents especially if the
persons who are holding a lot ofpower are pushing a different
(33:03):
agenda.
Dr. Thema Bryant (33:04):
You can feel alone or powerless, and so
finding like-minded people issuch a gift.
So, whether that is in yourworkplace and again this can be
globally, federally or evenlocally you know, I think about
times.
I've worked places that werenot a healthy workplace and just
(33:26):
having like someone in the roomI could catch eyes with it
makes all the difference.
Like we're going to talkafterwards, but I need to know
like someone else is seeing,like what is happening here, so
that you know social support,community support, makes a big
difference.
And then you know, rememberinghistory, you know that this is
(33:49):
not the first time that theideas and the values we have
have not been reflected inleadership, and so you know part
of it.
You know I love historians tolearn from history, right, when
people may not be exactly thesame, but when people face a
parallel circumstance, how didthey navigate?
(34:13):
How did they take care ofthemselves, how did they work
toward change collectively andstrategically?
So learning from history.
And then I'll say, from aspiritual perspective, and even
if someone is atheist oragnostic, I believe the mental
health field is rooted in afaith that things can be better
(34:37):
than they are right now.
Yeah, that's why we you know,why we do the research, why we
do the practice, why we'reteaching is it's a hope, right,
and some have talked about it asa radical hope, and it's
radical when it's in the face of, like, everything that's saying
that's not possible.
Lisa Danylchuk (34:54):
Yeah.
Dr. Thema Bryant (34:54):
Right.
So to nourish and feed ourspirits, so that we can remember
why we're here and what we'redoing.
And then I think one of theskills that therapists teach
that can be very helpful for usis learning how to count the
small wins, because sometimesit's like finish line or bust
(35:19):
right, that things can happenthat are actually good, but our
eyes are so focused on but thisand this and this, and it's not
that I want to ignore that, butif that's the only thing that is
praiseworthy, it's notsustainable.
So we want to be able to seethe small wins along the way
(35:41):
that help to encourage us.
Lisa Danylchuk (35:43):
Yeah, yeah, so we can build momentum from the
small wins, so we can also justappreciate our day-to-day life,
right?
Yes, knowing that we're doingsomething that feels meaningful,
and not waiting for someultimate perfection or some you
know point of peacefulmanifestation for everyone, you
(36:05):
know it's.
Yes, we're all interconnected,yes, there's a lot going on and,
yes, you can enjoy eating thatdonut or you can appreciate
making a beautiful quinoa salador you can right For you to say,
hey, I did that talk today andpeople were really engaged and
there's a lot of love in thatroom.
Dr. Thema Bryant (36:23):
Yeah, and that's the thing you know.
The scholars in post-traumaticgrowth talk about how growth and
despair can coexist.
Yes, Right, Because there's alot going on.
So you can say you know, as itrelates to that, my heart breaks
for that.
You know, I'm celebrating mykid who made it on honor roll or
whatever those layers there areto culture right.
We're talking about culturewithin the mental health field.
Lisa Danylchuk (36:45):
We're talking about culture within the US and
the larger world.
What are some ways that you'veseen culture be really healing
(37:10):
for people?
Dr. Thema Bryant (37:11):
Yeah.
So a big part of culture is thearts, and I mentioned I love
the arts.
So it can be healing to sing,healing to hear and write poetry
, healing to dance, and I loveembodied healing, somatic
healing, moving our bodies.
(37:33):
So both art production and artappreciation, right, that, even
if you're not the artist seeingartwork or hearing it, you know
is therapeutic right.
It can be very healing.
It is self-expression,community expression, being seen
, being heard, being known,being valued.
(37:57):
I remember I was at a poetrycoffee house in Boston.
I used to live in Boston for myinternship in postdoc and I
shared whatever piece I sharedthat week.
Someone came up to meafterwards and said your poems
feel like church.
I said that's good, that's whatit's meant to be, right.
(38:19):
You got three minutes to shiftan environment, right.
What is it you want to conveyin that three minutes?
And so, yeah, so art as acultural reflection.
Cultural values can also bemedicinal when they are
intentional as it relates tohumanity.
(38:41):
One of the cultural values canbe the collective right that
we're interwoven, that we'reinterrelated, that our lives
affect other people's lives, andso this sense of you know that
I matter, I just by being amember of this community there
(39:02):
are, you know, people who careabout me, who care about my well
being.
You know, some of us thinkabout that as chosen family or
some it's like our culturalidentity family.
To again have that sense ofsupport can be very helpful.
To again have that sense ofsupport can be very helpful.
And you know, so we can thinkabout cultural values, cultural
(39:24):
arts and then communitygathering, being present with
each other, because sometimeswhen we're suffering we isolate,
and so if we can remember thegift that can happen in each
other's presence.
You know, scientifically we cantalk about that as
co-regulation right, the waysthat some people can just soothe
(39:46):
our nervous system by us beingpresent, even if we don't say
anything.
Lisa Danylchuk (39:51):
Yeah, yeah, yeah .
Those are the colleagues Irefer to the most, the ones that
, when I see them, I'm just like, ah, thank you for existing we
don't have to talk aboutanything.
Dr. Thema Bryant (40:04):
Oh, feels good .
Lisa Danylchuk (40:08):
And I have this vision, as you're talking of,
almost like a summer camp kindof environment, like, even for
adults.
So many of us I'm veryparticular with where and how I
get my news, but I feel like, asadults, the entertainment is TV
or news or going online forthose things and like what if it
were dancing with yourneighbors?
(40:29):
What if it were even just likeplaying music or you know, like
live music every night?
You know like, if you do thisas special occasions, I'm gonna
go to a concert or this or that,but what if the everyday habit
were singing?
Dr. Thema Bryant (40:43):
What if the everyday?
Lisa Danylchuk (40:44):
habit were dancing, and so all of us.
I have to remind myself becauseI can get all up in my head
like, oh, stop, just play somemusic.
Dr. Thema Bryant (40:52):
Right, yes, so true.
I remember I was blessed to goto a psychology conference in
Puerto Rico and in the eveningsjust there's no special
occasions, they just had likeoutdoor music, and so you know,
you're just like listen to themusic and dance I was going for
broke just dancing, dancing, andyeah, it's healing, it's
(41:16):
beautiful it is and I've seenthat even at psychology
conferences.
Lisa Danylchuk (41:20):
Even ISSD has had bands and dancing.
At the end it's like okay thisis a step in the right direction
.
For sure, that's it.
Dr. Thema Bryant (41:27):
Great, great, well people.
We had flash mobs at the APAconvention when I was president.
My daughter did thechoreography and people are like
are we dancing at APA?
Yes, yes we are.
Lisa Danylchuk (41:42):
Yes, let's keep that going too.
So you mentioned and you talk alot about community care and
self-care, not falling into thisfalse dichotomy, like we have
to pick one or the other.
We are interwoven.
We are also individual humans,like let's have a bubble bath
and get paid maternity leave andlike have a walk with a friend
(42:02):
and all the layers, right, likewe don't have to just pick one.
And I know your book.
You wrote Homecoming First andMatters of the Heart Second and
there's it seems that there'sthat like relational progression
, right, coming home to yourself, and I saw a clip of you I
think it was from a while backwhere you were like let me just
give some dating advice forthose people in the crowd.
Show up as yourself from dayone, right?
Dr. Thema Bryant (42:25):
Like just let them know if you don't make it
then you don't.
Lisa Danylchuk (42:28):
That's not.
Don't, don't pretend like youdo that's it.
Dr. Thema Bryant (42:31):
Right, yeah, save a lot of time and then you
can find who aligns, who matcheswith that.
Lisa Danylchuk (42:41):
So true, yeah.
Dr. Thema Bryant (42:43):
We're often pretending and I say that in a
non-shaming way, because we'retaught that we see, we observe
that you get treated differentlyif you say the things people
want to hear or if you dress theway people say you're supposed.
You know, if you follow theserules, you may be rewarded but
not fulfilled.
Lisa Danylchuk (43:03):
Yes.
So, choosing that fulfillment,choosing that honesty, and it's
not like any of us, is this onesingle entity being that static?
Like we can evolve and changefor sure.
Like we can evolve and changefor sure, but the intention to
honor ourselves, yeah, first tocome home to ourselves, right
(43:23):
first, or have that as an anchor, and then to be in relationship
.
And I'm just aware, as we'retalking, like there's so the
layers of this.
It's like I'm part ukrainianand they make these beautiful
eggs, the easter eggs that layerout right the little.
There's one inside, another oneinside, another one inside,
another one inside.
And if we go down to, okay, theindividual human and then in
relationship and in family andin community and in country and
(43:48):
in world, there's just theselayers of things interacting
when we talk about healing, whenwe talk about hope for positive
change.
So I'm curious, since your lastbook, matters of the Heart,
came out, what are someconversations that are happening
at that level around healing?
Dr. Thema Bryant (44:07):
you know, attachment or healing in
relationship, yeah, One of thechapters that really resonates
with people is releasing peoplewho don't love you, and I think
you know many people strugglewith that.
You know they're just hopingthat they can win people over,
(44:29):
that they can convince them orthat, if they love them hard
enough and long enough, that youknow somehow that somehow
things will turn around.
And so the importance of mutualreciprocal relationships and
whether it's romantic or familyor friendship, that when people
(44:50):
are not choosing you to releasethem by honoring the truth, they
have already made a decision.
So you holding on is holding onto nothing, right.
They're not there, and so thathas been an important part of
healing.
And then another area that hasresonated with a lot of people
(45:10):
is around harshness.
Some of us grew up in difficultcircumstances so, you know, can
be in warrior mode, can be kindof hyper-independent, are
hyper-vigilant, and so to heal,to allow space in our hearts, in
our bodies, in our lives, forgentleness and that gentleness
(45:34):
is not weakness, so thatrequires some unlearning
definitely, yeah, yeah, and thegentleness inward with ourselves
and the gentleness with others,even when there is an important
boundary to set, even when it'sokay.
Lisa Danylchuk (45:48):
I'm not feeling like this person gets me, is on
my side, loves me, and I need tomake some space.
There are are ways to do thatavoidantly.
There are ways to do thatconfrontationally.
There are ways to do thatgently, not to say it's going to
be smooth or perfect, but mightbe a little bit less edgy or
(46:11):
softer, have less cleanup.
Wow.
So you mentioned earlier beinga woman in the world or being a
parent in the world.
I'm also thinking about thisletting go when there are kids
involved or kids who are feelingthe need to let their parents
(46:32):
go.
What would you say to someonewho's facing some of those
decisions where there's such astrong desire for attachment?
It's one thing to say don'tread the comments, right.
It's one thing to say there'salways going to be someone out
there critiquing your work orsomeone who's in a bad mood, who
wants to drop a bomb in thecomments, and easier to let that
(46:54):
go.
But if it's someone in yourfamily or someone where there's
so much investment, yeah, yeah,so important.
Dr. Thema Bryant (47:01):
And so you know, I think it's important
therapeutically to start fromthe vantage point of, like, all
of the options being on thetable Right.
So it may be we're going toleave things as they are and I'm
just trying to figure out howto cope more so I don't get so
distressed by it or I stop beingdisappointed when people
(47:22):
continue to be the same way theyare.
So that may be like theacceptance and the coping
strategies.
The other end of the spectrumare people who say, for my
mental health, or sometimes evenfor my physical or financial
safety, I cannot be inrelationship with this person
anymore and so I'm removing themfrom my life.
But then there's a whole areain the middle of that, which is
(47:47):
you know, what would it mean forme to be in relationship with
boundaries right, with arelationship with requirements,
in relationship with standards?
And I especially explore thatwith people who are suffering
with the way things are butperhaps religiously or
culturally or just bypersonality, have removed from
(48:11):
the table the possibility ofending the connection right.
Religiously, they may feel likeI have to honor my parents, and
it is a value of mine.
So then, helping people tothink through some curiosities.
So, for example, let's say,your family member or relative
(48:32):
doesn't treat you kindly or withrespect, do you really have to
spend every weekend at theirhouse?
Right, you know?
Because even though, like,that's how we've always done it,
everyone goes over all daySaturday, all day Sunday, you
know.
So ritual or tradition is not arule.
So, you know, let's considerone, the amount of time and the
(48:56):
amount of access that we'regiving people, and then the
times that I am there.
You know what would help it tofeel better for me If there is a
member of the family I feelsafe with, to ensure that I'm
seated next to them.
Some of us, you know you canvolunteer to be with the kids.
Some families have like thekids table or the kids room and
(49:17):
say, yep, let me go over withthe kids, it's less drama.
Or you know I'm going to comelate and leave early, and you
know, I know people are going totalk about me, but that's okay,
I just need to reduce my time.
And then also, you can beexplicit with your, with your
request of saying you know I'mcoming, but if someone does this
(49:41):
or someone says this, I'm goingto take my kids and leave.
So then everybody knows that,and if they willingly still do
that, well then you know, seeyou all next year, or maybe not.
Right so to give ourselvescause.
Sometimes we feel stuck andthink there are no options and
(50:02):
there could be some options.
Lisa Danylchuk (50:04):
Yeah, lots in the middle.
Yeah, it's the cognitivedistortion of all or nothing.
Right, I've got to be totallyenmeshed in this thing.
That doesn't feel good, or I'vegot to leave, and there's
boundaries in the middle andsometimes that's harder, which
is why we go to the extremes,right, right, yeah, there are so
many layers to your work and somany different themes.
(50:25):
I've seen you touch on that.
I'm like, oh, there's so much Iwant to talk about, and we're
coming closer to time.
You know Dr Jennifer Gomez, sheintroduced you at the ISSTD.
I always shout her out.
She talks about dreamstorming,going to the dream and then just
living there for a little whileand then we can pull some
insights into the present.
So I'm curious in your dreamstorm into a world where
(50:51):
liberation psychology has beenso downloaded and implemented,
can you imagine a world whereresistance is no longer
necessary?
And what does that world looklike?
Dr. Thema Bryant (51:06):
I think there are different forms of
resistance, yeah, and I canimagine a world where it is less
necessary.
Okay, but the reason I wouldstill say to have some aspect of
it is just in our knowing ofhuman beings, and so those that
(51:26):
greed can creep in, thosecontrol things can creep in.
And the thing that I'm mindfulof is people who have exit
religion because they say likeit's controlling, and then they
have these spiritual groups andthe same hierarchy stuff shows
up.
Yeah, you know they're like whodid you train with in yoga?
right exactly, oh, uh.
(51:49):
So I would say I do imagine aworld where we can have more
ease in our bodies, more easewith each other, more ease in
our spirits, where it is notperpetual warfare, and I welcome
that.
I dream it, but then alsoworking to create it right, to
(52:13):
make it so, and we can do that.
All of us can play a role inco-creating a world where we
don't just have to be insurvival or combat mode.
Lisa Danylchuk (52:26):
Yeah.
Dr. Thema Bryant (52:27):
Yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk (52:28):
Yeah, and when you say the resistance is still
necessary, part of what I hearin that is intentionality is
intentionality.
Part of what I hear in that ispower of knowing that whatever
is going on outside, you canbring something.
And even you know, as we'rethinking about this, how do we
grow into something that feelsbetter for everyone, where there
(52:50):
is more ease, where it's safeto be embodied, where we're not
always in fight, flight, freezeor all these other reactions.
It's like okay, well, we canhave a sense of power and agency
and we can create andacknowledge the times where
we're connected, the times wherethere's joy.
You mentioned earlier, too,having a few people decolonizing
(53:15):
training in psychology.
Can you give a shout out to afew names or theories you would
love to see in textbooks andtraining programs?
Dr. Thema Bryant (53:23):
Yes, I am super excited.
This timing is perfect.
I was just co-editor of the newspecial issue released by the
American Psychologist.
It was one of my presidentialinitiatives and just came to
press and it's Decolonial andLiberation Psychologies.
I encourage people to read thatspecial issue.
(53:45):
And then there are booksactually published by APA one on
liberation psychology, one ondecolonial psychology.
I also co-edited a book withLillian Comos Diaz on womanist
and Mujerista psychologies, sothe psychologies of Black women
(54:07):
and Latinas.
I encourage people to look atthe work of Helen Neville around
justice and joy, especially aswe think about our trauma work.
Judith Herman, talking aboutthe.
You know the ways in whichvictims define justice like.
What does justice look like forpeople?
And then the reclamation of joy.
Lisa Danylchuk (54:26):
Mm-hmm, on that note, the reclamation of joy.
What brings you joy today,dancing?
Dr. Thema Bryant (54:33):
brings me joy today.
In fact, this weekend I'll betraveling to visit my father,
who's 82.
And last year my momtransitioned and so I'm excited
to still have my dad in the landof the living.
And I'll say I still have joyas well about my mom's spirit,
(54:54):
that her presence is definitelywith me and I feel that and see
that.
And I have joy about those whoare coming into the field, who
are, you know, our students, ourearly career folks who are
visionary and passionate.
And because I do believe in thegift of being intergenerational
(55:17):
, I have joy as I think about mymentors in the field, the ways
in which they poured into me andcontinue to pour into me such a
blessing.
Lisa Danylchuk (55:29):
Yeah, definitely .
So where can someone go if theywant to learn more and stay
connected with you?
Dr. Thema Bryant (55:35):
Yeah, so my website is drthemacom
D-R-T-H-E-M-A.
If folks are on Instagram, I'mthere as Dr D-R period Thema.
The books I want to name inaddition to the hardback and the
digital, there's also audiobooks, and I was so excited that
(55:57):
they let me read the booksmyself, and so the books are
available.
And then, of course, theHomecoming podcast, which is on
YouTube, spotify, soundcloud,itunes.
Lisa Danylchuk (56:10):
Nice, I love it.
Thank you so much, dr Tama.
Dr. Thema Bryant (56:14):
Thank you.
Lisa Danylchuk (56:15):
Can I ask you one more thing?
Dr. Thema Bryant (56:17):
Yes.
Lisa Danylchuk (56:20):
When Dr Gomez introduced you at ISSTD, she
said okay, the floor is allyours, queen, and I was like oh,
so nice.
You said that she's like no,there's a story behind it.
Do you mind sharing the story?
Dr. Thema Bryant (56:31):
Absolutely so.
My first name is Tama and itmeans queen, and my parents gave
me that name.
We're African-American and Ifeel it is such a gift that
wherever I go, whether peoplewant to or not, when they say my
name, they are honoring me andI receive that as a treasure
(56:55):
that my parents intentionallygave me.
Lisa Danylchuk (56:58):
What a beautiful gift.
Yeah so, Queen.
Thank you, Dr Tema.
So appreciate you coming on andsharing your wisdom with us.
Dr. Thema Bryant (57:09):
Thank you for a beautiful conversation,
wonderful questions and yourgreat heart.
Lisa Danylchuk (57:15):
Oh, thank you.
(57:41):
Oh, where you'll find me at howwe Can Heal.
Don't forget to go tohowwecanhealcom to sign up for
email updates as well.
You'll also find additionaltrainings, tons of free
resources and the fulltranscript of each and every
show.
If you love the show, pleaseleave us a review on Apple,
spotify, audible or whereveryou're listening to this podcast
(58:03):
right now.
If you're watching on YouTube,be sure to like and subscribe,
and keep sharing the shows youlove the most with all your
friends.
Visit howwecanhealcom forwardslash podcast to share your
thoughts and ideas for the show.
I always, always, love hearingfrom you.
Before we wrap up for today, Iwant to be super clear that this
(58:25):
podcast isn't offeringprescriptions.
It's not advice, nor is it anykind of mental health treatment
or diagnosis.
Your decisions are in yourhands and I encourage you to
consult with any healthcareprofessionals you may need to
support you through your uniquepath of healing.
In addition, everyone's opinionhere is their own and opinions
(58:47):
can change.
Guests share their thoughts,not that of the host or sponsors
.
I'd like to thank our gueststoday and everyone who helped
support this podcast, directlyand indirectly.
Alex, thanks for taking care ofthe babe and taking the fur
babies out while I record.
Last and never least, I'd liketo give a special shout out to
(59:08):
my big brother, matt, who passedaway in 2002.
He wrote this music and itmakes my heart so very happy to
share it with you here.
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