October 20, 2025 • 56 mins
What if the most powerful medicine starts with warmth, rhythm, and trust in your own body? Today we sit down down with licensed acupuncturist, Chinese herbalist, and yoga teacher Tara Tonini to trace how trauma-informed Chinese medicine can steady the nervous system, smooth cycles, and support conception, pregnancy, birth prep, and postpartum in a way that fits into real life. From liver qi and kidney jing to the heart-mind connection, Tara translates complex ideas into simple choices you can make today.
We dig into why many people are “acu-curious” yet needle-averse, and how energy work, qigong, and gentle touch can move qi without needles. Tara breaks down yin and yang as a practical parenting tool—intensity peaks, ease returns—and shows how seasonal eating, warm foods, and cozy rituals rebuild blood, improve sleep, and calm anxiety. She shares why chronic heat practices can dry you out, how cold plunges may impact kidney qi, and how warmth is medicine for conception and early postpartum recovery. You’ll hear concrete tips like herbal foot soaks for insomnia, body tapping along meridians to relieve pain, and using familiar yoga postures as targeted meridian stretches for better flow.
We also explore postpartum care through the lens of “sitting the moon,” with nourishing herbs, digestible meals, and home scents that signal safety. Tara’s trauma-informed clinical approach centers consent, pacing, and patient agency. If you’re navigating fertility, preparing for birth, or rebuilding after, this conversation offers grounded tools and a kinder way to meet your body where it is.
If this resonates, follow and share the episode, leave a review on your favorite app, and tell us the practice you’ll try today. Your story might spark someone else’s healing.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lisa Danylchuk (00:02):
Welcome back to the How We Can Heal podcast.
Today our guest is Tara Tanini.
Tara is a licensedacupuncturist, Chinese
herbalist, and registered yogateacher specializing in women's
health.
She weaves together breath,movement, and medicine as tools
for healing, guiding her clientsthrough fertility, pregnancy,
(00:23):
postpartum, and the countlesstransitions of modern life.
She brings practices likeacupuncture, Chinese herbal
medicine, yoga, and qigong toher in-person healing sessions
in Brooklyn, New York, andoffers grounded, heart-centered
support through her website,teratonini.com.
I first met Tara over 10 yearsago when she signed up for the
(00:47):
very first online trainingprogram I offered in Yoga for
Trauma Recovery.
In today's conversation, we'llexplore how she integrates
trauma-informed care withtraditional Chinese medicine and
how these tools can supportwell-being, particularly during
the reproductive seasons oflife.
Tara is full of wisdom, heart,and humor, and I'm so happy to
(01:10):
share our conversation with youhere today.
Please join me in welcomingTara Tanini to the show.
Hello, Tara Tanini to the HowWe Can Health Podcast.
I'm so happy to have you here.
I've known you for a long, longtime, and I know you have so
much wisdom and brilliance toshare.
So I'm excited you're here.
Tara Tonini (01:32):
Thank you, Lisa.
Really excited to see you andbe with you and the wonderful
community that you're alwaysengaging and cultivating.
Lisa Danylchuk (01:40):
So not everyone knows you as well as I do.
I'm curious to frame yourbackground a little bit.
What sparked your interest inwomen's health, in healing, in
yoga and medicine?
How'd you get where you aretoday?
Tara Tonini (01:54):
Not in a simple journey, but I think that I've
always had a deep fascinationwith like Venusian culture and
everything goddess-related andgrowing up in the country and
being so intimately tied withnature has definitely made me
who I am.
And then my first degree andcareer was in the fashion
industry, and that was actuallythe introduction to Chinese
(02:18):
medicine.
I've been telling this story alot recently.
Is it funny?
Lisa Danylchuk (02:21):
Well, I want to hear it.
Yeah, I don't think I've heardthis one.
Tara Tonini (02:24):
All my patients say, You always say, Can I tell
you a funny story?
Lisa Danylchuk (02:30):
Yes.
Tara Tonini (02:31):
Yes, please.
So yeah, I was working in thefashion industry and landed this
amazing job that gave me awonderful opportunity to travel
all over.
And that lended me to ouroffice in Hong Kong.
And we would frequently visitthe factories in mainland China.
(02:52):
And because I was about 70%travel back then, I was
constantly getting sick fromthese long flights and different
time zone changes.
And the beautiful women in ourHong Kong office would always
take me down the street and getme Chinese herbs and make me
walk on this acupuncture stonefoot garden at the very top of
our office building.
(03:13):
And I went to get all thesecupping and treatments and
Chinese foot baths, and I wouldinstantly feel better.
And interestingly, that was theimmersion into traditional
Chinese medicine and all that ithas to offer.
Lisa Danylchuk (03:29):
I love that for so many reasons because you were
in need of support, like veryimmediate.
And then the people there arelike, come come, sister, we have
we have support for you.
And then it helped, but youweren't looking for it, right?
It kind of you and then thatseed that planted a how long ago
was that now?
(03:50):
How many years?
That was 2005.
20 years ago.
You get this seed planted, andthen here you are now with your
degree in traditional Chinesemedicine, with all this
experience as a yoga teacher, atrauma-informed practitioner, a
doula.
I feel like you've had so manylifetimes in your careers, and
(04:15):
we can understand fashion interms of like cultivating beauty
and cultivating health in thatway.
I know sometimes we see itthrough like other lenses too.
How are we choosing ourclothing and are we prioritizing
looks over well-being?
But everything else has been sodeeply about energetic healing,
right?
And then even in that fashionwork, there was that seed of
(04:37):
energetic healing that gotplanted 20 years ago.
I love it.
So you shared that people cometo you now.
You did all this work to getcertified to provide
acupuncture.
I mean, you've practiced allthese clinical hours.
You know how to do the thing,you can provide acupuncture.
(04:58):
And it feels like people arecoming to you more and more for
the energetic healing side, evenas you have this certification
that you work so hard for.
So talk about that.
What are you noticing in folks?
And what are you noticing asyou go out on your own as a
practitioner?
Tara Tonini (05:14):
Yeah.
I have this actual and reallyfascinating patient.
She was coming to me in betweenthe bridge of graduating school
and studying for my boards andmy license.
And we were doing energy work,and she kept saying, I can't
wait until you can really sticka needle in there.
And then, of course, I get thelicense and I have all the
(05:36):
tools, and I'm like, Okay, nowwe get the needles.
And she's like, Yeah, I justdecided this is my medicine.
I don't need the needles.
Lisa Danylchuk (05:44):
I don't need the needles.
Tara Tonini (05:47):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think acupuncture is aform of energy medicine, but I
think that a lot of people havea needle phobia that's actually
pre-verbal.
We go to our healthcareproviders with our parents, our
guardians, our caretakers that,you know, they love us, they
(06:08):
support us, they keep us healthyand fed, and um, they tell us
our shots aren't gonna hurt.
And then we see this strangeperson who has a needle, and we
get vaccinations, which, youknow, serve their purpose
absolutely in a medical modeland you know, as a global health
system, but they lied to usbecause it does hurt, it does
(06:30):
hurt.
And so I think that there'ssomething in in the psyche that
lends itself to needle phobia.
And so, even though people arevery acucurious, I think the
needle phobia might stem fromthat memory as the the body
memory, right?
And so I find that a lot ofpeople will say, like, I'm
(06:51):
curious, I think that thismedicine could really help my
strange, rare, and peculiarthing, but I'm not sure how I
feel about the needles.
So that's kind of where thingsare in my practice right now.
Lisa Danylchuk (07:04):
I have so many thoughts about that.
The first one being, I rememberbeing 16 and someone saying,
You're gonna get a shot and likeleaving the doctor's office,
like, nope, not an option.
I was like, I don't want it.
And no.
And there's probably somethingempowering and helpful about
that, because as an infant, youdon't have that option, right?
And I had an injury in college,a neck injury, whole story
(07:29):
there, won't tell it here now,but was in so much pain and I
did all the things, right?
Like I was still doing the yogathat I could.
It was pretty modified.
I was doing like massagechiropractic PT.
And I was just in pain.
And I was like, I'm gonna try.
As much as I've never been aneedle person or liked it, I've
always been like, no, I'm good.
(07:49):
No, I'll skip it.
I'm 16, I'll skip that painshot.
I'll just take the paininstead.
I decided to try acupuncture.
And I remember being at the AshHealth Center at UCLA, and I
was like, I'll just keep my eyesclosed.
If I don't see it, it doesn'tactually the acupuncture needles
don't really hurt.
Every once in a while, you getlike a stingy one or a pinchy
(08:09):
one like going in, but then theydon't hurt when you're sitting
there, right?
So it's like I'm not gonna lookand I'm just gonna get the
acupuncture.
And it helped so much, Tara.
Like it was the only thing Iwould walk out of there, and my
pain was gone.
I remember I was like, the leftside of my neck is hurt.
So I got acupuncture on theleft and I walked out and I was
like, oh, I think the righthurts too, because now I really
feel that, right?
So the next time I was likeboth sides.
(08:31):
And I would get like two, threedays of pain relief.
So I just kept going backslowly over time.
I'd start to like peek and openmy eyes, open one eye and be
like, okay, all right, that'sokay.
So I had this likedesensitization process and like
comfort building through therelationship with my provider.
She was very kind, verysupportive and gentle through
(08:52):
keeping my eyes closed, throughjust like coming around to it.
So it's so interesting thatyou're noticing that in your
practice as you're supportingpeople.
Do you have a specificpopulation you're working with?
Is it pretty general or are youfocused still on parenting, on
pregnancy?
Tara Tonini (09:12):
I tend to attract people who are either in the
conception phase or arecurrently pregnant.
And then because I'm sopassionate about the birth
process and yeah, it just likelights me up and fascinates me.
So I think that that passionreally attracts birthing people
and they are care providers,which I wouldn't say my practice
(09:35):
is solely birth prep, but Ithink it's a significant amount
of my patient population rightnow.
Lisa Danylchuk (09:41):
And how would you describe the work you're
doing for birth prep?
What are some pillars in yourmind of like this is what this
baby needs, this is what thismama, this family needs.
What are things that stand outthat you're offering in terms of
that support?
Tara Tonini (09:56):
I think people come to Chinese medicine with what I
call the strange, the rare, andthe peculiar.
So it's like something thatthey know is not in balance or
something that they can likedeeply trust in their body is
out of alignment.
And maybe they go to abiomedical western model, and
you know, rightfully so, theyhave all the imaging, they have
(10:18):
all the blood tests, they allhave their hormonal checks, and
everything's within that healthyrange, but within them, they
know something's off.
And so many people come to meas like a last resort, or they
like Google, what do I do whenyou know this test is showing
negative?
And oftentimes in that search,Chinese medicine will pop up.
(10:40):
And so I would say that onething I feel really passionate
about telling my patients is totrust that innate wisdom of
their body, and Chinese medicinespeaks so truly to that because
we're always looking forharmony between the exterior
world and our internalenvironment because our bodies
(11:01):
are simply a microcosm of what'sgoing on around us.
And so the goal is always tobring more harmony, more
balance, more ease, and like welearn, and I've learned from you
in trauma recovery, like agreater capacity for both the
highs and the lows and the joysand the discomforts.
(11:21):
And that's really what Chinesemedicine has to offer.
Lisa Danylchuk (11:25):
I love that as I hear my daughter squealing in
the background.
Like it's the relationshipbetween the external world and
the internal world, right?
And yeah, I feel like sometimesin health we can get, um,
especially perhaps from anAmerican perspective, we can get
really rigid with like whatthat needs to look like.
I need to have my continuouseight hours of sleep every
(11:48):
night.
I need to have these vegetablesand this amount of protein and
this, like every day.
And I'm a fan of structure.
And sometimes it's unrealisticin a way that like my experience
at times is then it separatesme from what's actually
happening in reality because Ihave all these like goals and
expectations that maybe at sometimes in life are possible to
(12:09):
meet.
But when your daughter's upfrom one to five, like you're
not gonna get eight hours ofcontinuous sleep.
And I noticed this, I followsome really funny accounts on
Instagram about this too, wherewhen people have, especially one
or two or three, a number ofyoung children, that kind of
theme of getting your needs metin the moment best you can and
(12:31):
letting that be okay beingreally important.
I'm wondering if there'sanything specific from Chinese
medicine that you would sharewith parents of young children,
people who have physicallypushed the baby out of their
body and are healing andrecovering from that in those
first couple years, and areriding those waves of a whole
(12:54):
new person in the household, newrhythms to figure out, trying
desperately to take care ofthemselves, because we all know
self-care is important and weall know if the parents aren't
getting good care, theneverything else falls apart.
But like it can start to feellike pressure.
Do you see that where peoplestart to feel like, well, now
(13:14):
I'm also not doing that right?
Like I didn't eat enoughprotein yesterday, and I uh I
just ate in the middle of thenight because I was hungry and I
wasn't supposed to do that, inquotes, right?
I'm curious from the Chinesemedicine model, what you see
that helps to foster somesupport in that space that can
feel chaotic, right, andunpredictable.
Tara Tonini (13:37):
Yeah, I think just really going back to the basics
of yen and yang theory.
When I'm struggling, or if apatient is struggling, I like to
think of that discomfort asyang.
And yang will increase,increase, increase until it
peaks, and then it has nothingto do but turn back into yen.
(13:57):
And so it's like thisinterdependent, reciprocal
nature that we learn from thenatural world outside of us, but
we're a little far removed fromit because we're not living
right in nature, at least mostof us aren't.
But I like to think of thatsymbol of yen and yang and how
yang will not last forever,therefore, discomfort will not
(14:20):
last forever.
And then the opposite is trueas well.
And I think for me, at least,that's what helps me really hold
on to those sacred, delicious,sweet moments and kind of
bookmark them in my mind and mybody because even the good stuff
doesn't last forever.
Lisa Danylchuk (14:37):
It reminds me of I know you used to teach
trauma-informed bar classes, youknow, doing those like little
super painful thigh squats andthings and saying that, all
right, this isn't gonna lastforever.
And I remember hearing you saysomething about that while I was
pregnant, and I was like, lookat Tara, she's teaching in this
way that's trauma-informed,people still have options.
(14:57):
It's also good birth prep,right, for contractions, like
really feeling and knowing,okay, this young is gonna peak,
and then there's gonna be alittle yin valley.
Unless you're in back labor, Ilearned, then you don't have the
valley.
That hurts.
Tara Tonini (15:10):
Then yeah, or if you're on Pentosin.
Sorry.
Right.
Right.
Yeah, sorry, there are thereare caveats here.
Lisa Danylchuk (15:16):
Are there any principles in Chinese medicine?
So I studied for almost a yearwhen I was in Bologna, Italy.
So I have this very basic, veryold, very Italian uh basis of
Chinese medicine in my brainthat I'm very grateful for.
But I remember learning at thattime about the impact of trauma
on kidney, on liver.
(15:39):
And I've always held that withme, like my back and my knees
start hurting.
I'm like, oh, okay, maybe I'mkidney deficient.
I'm always asking myacupunctures.
I would love a funny story too,but I'm always like, look at my
tongue.
Is it kidney yin deficiency?
Is it liver qi stagnation?
They're like, well, if you'realive in the world, you probably
have liver chi stagnation.
I'm like, okay.
(16:00):
So what are some of the likenormal everyday people things
that are super common in Chinesemedicine?
And what can we do about that?
And then I want to ask aboutthe more specific trauma ones.
Tara Tonini (16:11):
Yeah, so similar to what you were saying, um the
meridian system also coincideswith our internal organs.
And so liver is very important,especially for biological
females, because this is what'sgoing to course the qi, which is
like our life force energy, ourvitality, the prana.
It's going to course it.
And when it's coursing freely,we are asymptomatic, especially
(16:35):
in our menstrual cycles.
But when the liver chi isn'tcoursing freely, we experience
as menstruating people a lot ofdisharmony, or sometimes we
could think of it as a pathologyor dysfunction.
So when a patient comes to meand they'll say, like, I have
dysmenorrhea, painful periods,or I have amenorrhea, no period,
(16:55):
or I have endometriosis, whichis a very complex um menstrual
disorder, um, the first thing Ilook to is the liver, and I get
really curious about that.
And then, yeah, in terms oftrauma, the scholars of Chinese
medicine really understoodlineage and they really observed
(17:16):
how kind of going back to likeepigenetics of this massive
immersion and the most recentresearch is that what and how
we're holding and living getspassed to future generations.
And that could be extremelypositive and sometimes it's not
so helpful, but that all comesfrom the kidney and specifically
(17:36):
something that we call jing,which is our essence.
And when it comes to Chinesemedicine and also like a trauma
model, is we only have so muchjing.
So if you think of like yourbank account, we want to keep
that bank account as vital aspossible so that we're not
running low on funds.
And we're born with X amount ofJing, X amount of essence, and
(18:01):
that is you know a derivative ofwhat came from our parents'
piggy banks, if you will.
So, not to like shame or blameour ancestors, because I think
for most of them, they weredoing the best that they could
with their resources andcircumstances, but um, there are
certain things that we could doto hold on to as much of our
(18:22):
bank account or as much as ourchi, especially our kidney chi
as possible.
And the first two things arealways lifestyle.
So, how are we eating, how arewe pooping, how are we sleeping,
how are we resting, and how arewe having fun?
And we don't want any of thosein excess, but we don't want any
(18:43):
of them completely in depletioneither.
So we're gonna have enough funand enough sleep and enough food
and enough drink and enoughbowel movements.
Lisa Danylchuk (18:54):
Always comes back to the pooping.
Tara Tonini (18:56):
It always comes back to the poop.
Lisa Danylchuk (18:58):
Super funny side note someone sent me a meme of
a kid where in picture one theysaid smile for the camera.
In picture two, they said poop.
And the kid's smile, pictureone was a little bit of a forced
a nice smile.
Picture two with poop was justface lit up laughing.
Just capturing so much joy.
Tara Tonini (19:21):
Yeah.
And if you're not pooping,you're probably not smiling.
Lisa Danylchuk (19:24):
That's true.
So that impacts the otherelement.
You're not saying you might notbe having as much fun as you
could be.
Right.
And that makes me think of thiswhole I was just having a
conversation with Alex over theweekend where we went away and
we had fun and we got sleep,which was great.
But we were talking about thediagnosis of IBS and how I had
(19:46):
Kathleen Kendall Packett on thepodcast to talk about maternal
mental health.
But we were talking aboutpsychoneuroimmunology and how
there are a number of things inWestern medicine that have a
label, but we don't really havethe etiology.
We don't fully understand howor why they come to be.
And IBS being one of those,like, oh, well, there's
(20:08):
something going on.
We're not really sure why.
Maybe we've done some allergytests, we didn't get any
information.
Uh, but there's there'ssomething happening in there.
And I think so much about thepsychoneuroimmunology of if
you're not, if your eating isrushed all the time, like
Italians make fun of us becausewe eat while we're walking and
driving as Americans, right?
(20:29):
And they're like, what are youdoing?
Like, go home, sit down, andthen eat.
If we're not getting enoughsleep, and maybe at some point
Kathleen and I'll do an entireepisode on sleep because we were
talking about that too.
If we're not having fun and allthe biology that happens when
we're playing and having fun,that's also going to impact our
digestion, right?
(20:49):
Like our physiological state inall of those experiences
impacts how we're digesting.
So could impact whether or notwe're pooping or how hard it is
or how frequent it is.
You know what started theconversation?
It was a bumper sticker thatsaid, sorry for speeding, I have
IBS.
Full circle back to the poopjokes.
(21:11):
Full circle, sorry forspeeding, I have IBS.
All this to say, all of thesethings that we're taking care
of, the yin and yang, the liverenergy, the kidney essence, the
xing, all of that connects withour lifestyle.
So I'm kind of hearing fromwhat you're saying this
traditional Chinese medicineview of what I see from a very
(21:36):
like Western trauma-informedpsychoneuroimmunology model.
I feel like there's crossoverthere where we're like the way
we experience things, ourrelationships, our experience
with food, our sleep, allimpacts, our digestion, our
pain, right?
Inflammation in the body, allthese things.
What can people do to supporthealth there?
(21:58):
And what can people do, maybeif they're not even, they don't
have access to acupuncture, justto support lifestyle-wise,
these organs, these meridians?
Tara Tonini (22:08):
Yeah, so I'm going back to my roots is eat
seasonally.
Yeah.
First of all, it's more costefficient.
So if you are a person thateats fresh fruits and
vegetables, when they're inseason, they're more cost
efficient.
And then the second thing iscoming back to that mirrored
reflection of our externalenvironment with our internal
(22:29):
environment.
So eating with the seasons, Ithink, is one of the most
practical, like down-to-earthways, which I find, you know, my
patient population, they're NewYorkers.
A lot of folks have been bornand raised in the city and have
no idea what fruits andvegetables are in season.
And like I grew up on a farm.
So I'm, you know, like I'm thecomplete opposite.
(22:51):
So I like to tell my patients,go to the farmer's market in
your neighborhood and letyourself, you know, outside of
the baked goods, let yourselfeat whatever there.
Like with whatever is on thetable of produce, you get to
have fun with that in whateverway, shape, or form it comes up.
You know, baked goods are alittle bit different depending
(23:12):
on people's digestive tracts.
But easy eating seasonally,it's I think very cost efficient
and a great way to get backinto that natural rhythm and
seasonal ebbs and flows.
Lisa Danylchuk (23:26):
So when you're talking about internal
environment reflecting external,are you focusing mostly on the
seasons or are there otherthings that are packed into that
description?
Tara Tonini (23:38):
For a modern person, it goes a little bit
deeper because we have theability and the great privilege
to be able to turn water on andit comes out of the facet and
adjusts the temperature of thewater.
And one of the great evils inChinese medicine is cold.
But as a developed nation, wehave the ability to turn our
(23:58):
heaters on and blow dry our wethair before we go to bed.
So while there is still like acold element that we want to
protect our bodies from, we alsowant to start looking into the
opposite.
So what is drying our bodies?
So I find like this is notpoo-pooing anyone's yum of hot
yoga, but I find a lot of mypatients that are hot yogi fans,
(24:22):
a lot of hot yoga people arechronically dehydrated and
therefore are yin deficient.
So we can look to the naturalworld, but we can also get
curious about where is there alot of excess and where might
they be a little bit more of adeficiency in our more modern
environment as well.
Lisa Danylchuk (24:43):
And then are you looking at the elements there?
And you're talking about water,are you thinking also about
earth and metal and those otherthings in that model?
Tara Tonini (24:52):
I mean, I am because that's where my brain
goes.
But um to make it like veryapproachable and tangible from
my patients, we root it in thereality of their world.
So what does their environmentlook like?
I'm also a big fan of notrestricting things from people.
So, you know, like if you tellme not to wear socks, I'm going
(25:16):
to want to wear socks.
Lisa Danylchuk (25:17):
Yeah.
Tara Tonini (25:18):
So I'm a big fan of introducing things in to create
a feeling of abundance andnourishment rather than like
saying, do not use these thingsor do not consume these things.
Lisa Danylchuk (25:30):
Yes.
Another thought that I just waswondering about as you were
talking about cold is howpopular cold immersion is.
And I don't see people speakingabout it seasonally.
I see a lot of research onathletes and do you do it right
after a workout or later?
And is it impacting your musclegain in a positive or a
negative way?
And there's some research,thankfully, on gender there too.
(25:53):
I haven't seen a ton becauseit's pretty much unethical to do
randomized control inpregnancy.
Most people I've seen avoidcold plunges while they're
pregnant.
And most of that is justthrough the recommendation for
the warmth and the especiallyearly postpartum, that like cozy
warm vibe that so many folksrecommend.
(26:14):
So I'm wondering if you workwith people who practice cold
plunging, if you have thoughtsabout it from a Chinese medicine
perspective.
Tara Tonini (26:23):
Again, I don't want to yuck anyone's yum, but like
from my clinical view, it's abig no-no.
I can remove myself from myChinese medicine lens and look
at it from a biomedical model interms of invigorating the
nervous system and increasingthe circulatory system, but it's
(26:44):
a shock to the system.
And when the body is shocked,it's scattering the qi of the
kidney.
Lisa Danylchuk (26:52):
Okay.
Yeah.
Tara Tonini (26:54):
And going back to like a birthing person's uh
experience, um the cesarean ratein the United States is very,
very high for a developednation.
And a lot of people are havingbirth experiences in a surgical
room, which, you know, by thegrace of modern medicine, we
have the access to thesewonderful tools and advancements
(27:17):
in medicine.
It's an extremely coldenvironment.
And so I find a lot ofpostpartum patients come to me,
and even if I just put my handon their abdomen, it would feel
like an ice cube in their belly.
And so full circle back to thecold.
That's something that I'mhelping patients to like really
understand and be inrelationship with is like what
(27:39):
is the temperature of your ownbody?
Lisa Danylchuk (27:42):
Yeah.
There's so much wisdom ineverything you've studied and
the way that it integrates.
So I'm aware that we're sort ofjumping around to different
things.
But I do want to come back to,you know, we had started with
general folks, liver kidneystuff.
What about someone who ispreparing for pregnancy?
What are some things to thinkabout, things to notice you
would highlight there?
Tara Tonini (28:04):
This would bring us over to the earth element,
which is the spleen and thestomach, when we can really
optimize our digestive tractthat's going to create
nutrient-rich blood in theendometrium layer so that that
life force can actually beimplanted into the womb.
So I always like to think aboutlike blood building uh
(28:26):
nourishment, coming back to theworm.
So if you're trying toconceive, cover up those feet,
make sure you have warm, cozysocks as often as possible.
Uh, hot foot soaks work reallywell.
And hot foot soaks, I've alsonoticed this is just like a
clinical antidote.
A lot of my patients who haveinsomnia.
(28:47):
So either the ability to or theinability rather to fall asleep
or remain asleep.
When we start to introduce anherbal foot soak before bed, it
really grounds the chi and canhelp people sleep more restfully
and fall asleep more restfullytoo.
So keeping those feet warm,keeping the belly and the lower
back warm.
(29:08):
And then slowing down.
I think of like that conceptionand family planning stage as
crossing the threshold into whatyour life could be like as a
parent and thinking aboutslowing down and cultivating
like what is a priority and whatcan be let go of so that you
can really hone in on the energyand vitality of welcoming in
(29:32):
this new energy and loved oneinto your family unit.
Lisa Danylchuk (29:36):
Yeah, I found that really important for
myself.
I have, I don't think you cansee it in the frame, but just
outside the frame here, I havethe wall calendar, and every
year, about this time of year,it's about time, I'll buy a new
one for the next year and I'llplan out oh, where are we
traveling and where am Iteaching and what's gonna go,
you know.
And when I knew I wanted tohave Isabella or to get
(29:59):
pregnant.
And I didn't even get acalendar.
I was just like, nope.
This is the intention.
It is the only intention.
Nothing else matters this year.
It's not about planning.
And you know, everyone'sdifferent.
Some people are still going toneed that sort of structure.
But I was just like, nope, it'sall about the babe right now.
(30:21):
So that slowing down and thatinviting in a new person very
intentionally.
And I find what you say to betrue.
And either folks areintentionally creating that
space and slowing down, or ithappens and it's kind of a shock
and challenging to navigatebecause yeah, priorities do
change and things change.
(30:43):
So what have you found then inpregnant postpartum general
supports that maybe folkshaven't heard about from a
Chinese medicine perspective?
Tara Tonini (31:00):
We call this um, it gets often translated into
English as sitting the moon.
It's called the Zowetsa period.
So it's 30 days of sometimestranslated as confinement, but I
think that sounds really harsh.
Yeah.
I guess it depends on whoyou're with in your your
postpartum phase.
(31:21):
But it's a time that thebirthing person gets really
parented.
So historically they would saylike the mother gets mothered.
And I think what I've observedas a birth worker in American
culture is all of the love,care, and affection goes to the
baby, which is wonderful becausewe're grading this new life
(31:42):
force in the world.
But very little attention ispaid to the birthing person or
the mama.
So food is prepared in a veryparticular way.
We have very strict, gorgeous,gorgeous herbal regimes.
So this is like one of mypassions is to go into the
postpartum home and cook the rawherbs and that aromatic
(32:05):
infusion into the home or theapartment and preparing food
that's easily to digest andreally helps expediting the
healing process.
And yeah, that's kind of whereI'm more and more being called
to in both like a professionaland personal space right now.
Lisa Danylchuk (32:26):
It's such a beautiful and in my mind and
heart, like a naturalexperience, like a very human
experience to have.
I was lucky to have apostpartum doula who came in, I
think only twice a week forthose first six weeks.
And I had, you know, a fewbooks like the first 40 days, or
you had sent a recipe to thatAlex lovingly prepared.
(32:49):
And so had these like aromaticherbs and you know, snacks with
dates and almond butter androses sprinkled on top.
And it was so nurturing.
And even the smells and the thewhat you were talking about,
the essence filling the home.
There's something about thatthat feels really grounding and
(33:11):
nurturing and felt reallysupportive for me personally.
So I love that you're goinginto that.
You're feeling called intothat.
I'm really upset that you're sofar away because it's not
really eco-friendly to go fromBrooklyn to California at this
stage.
But um, I just feel like Iwould love to have had you and
have you nearby for those typesof experiences because you're so
(33:32):
good at that.
It's such a natural fit foryou.
Thank you.
Yeah.
So let's talk a little bitabout trauma from the Chinese
medicine perspective.
What are things people can do?
And if there are caveats forpregnancy postpartum, let's talk
about those as well.
(33:52):
But let's start with just folksin general.
If they've been exposed totrauma, what are some general
principles from Chinese medicinethat folks might benefit from
being aware of?
Tara Tonini (34:05):
I mean, trauma will affect all of the body or all
of the meridians, all of theinternal organs.
But it has the biggest impacton the kidney and the heart.
Interestingly, in Chinesemedicine, heart and mind have
the same, they're the same name,shen and shin.
And so sometimes as aEnglish-speaking student of
(34:29):
Chinese medicine, I would getreally confused.
Are they talking about the mindor are they talking about the
heart?
Which Shin is this?
Um, but yeah, so the mind, theheart, and the kidneys
definitely take the big blow.
But interestingly, so does thepericardium.
So the pericardium, maybeyou're familiar with this
(34:52):
because I I know a lot of myCalifornia friends are.
Are you familiar with thebeautiful shrines from Mexico?
And they're often made out oflike a clay or a really
beautiful wood, and they havelike ten hinges, and the shrine
doors can open and close, andoftentimes there's like some
form of a deity inside.
Yeah.
I think of the pericardium asthe shrine, and when the
(35:17):
pericardium is functioningproperly, it has really well
lubricated hinges.
And so when something impactsthe heart, the pericardium will
close its doors to protect theheart, and it'll take every
impact it can to protect theheart until it can no longer
protect it.
And so, in terms of integrationof and healing of trauma, we
(35:42):
really want to work thatpericardium.
And I like to think of likelubricating the hinges so it can
open and close properly aftertraumatic events, so that we can
build our resiliencies, so thatwe can lean into and orient
towards safety, and that we canalso come back to that
(36:02):
self-protection if and when weneed.
And one way that we can do thatthrough the lens of Chinese
medicine is working with thelung, part, and pericardium
channels on the inner arm.
And just like we do fortrauma-informed yoga, using the
breath and using the body fromthat top-down and bottom-up
approach.
(36:22):
It's not called yoga throughthe lens of Chinese medicine, it
would be called uh qigong ordaoyen practice, and all that
means is inner alchemy or usingthe breath and the body to move
qi.
Do you want to do a practice?
Is that interesting?
Okay.
So, and people might haveexperienced this also in some Y
(36:44):
for T movement, but we couldjust start off with our hands on
our body if that feelsinteresting.
Just taking a moment to feelyour palms and the way in which
they're making contact with thetexture of your clothes or maybe
even the temperature of yourskin.
(37:05):
Yeah, and I just could beopened or closed, and just
getting a sense of how thebreath is coming in and out of
the body.
And if and when it feels right,we're just gonna expand the
arms any amount that feelsinteresting.
So it could be low, it could behigh.
(37:27):
Just taking the arms outward,and then when you've found a
place where they've expanded to,we're just gonna bring it right
back in.
And I always like to link mymovement with my breath.
So if that feels interestingfor you, you could inhale as you
expand the chi.
And then exhale as that chicomes back to center.
(37:53):
Breathing in the chi expands.
And then breathing out the chicenters.
And then just trying to do twoor three more at your own pace.
You can get creative with thearms, you could even flex the
(38:13):
wrists or move the hands around.
Lisa Danylchuk (38:34):
I love it so much.
I love simple things that wecan do most anywhere.
Like maybe you don't stretchyour arms straight out to the
side while you're driving, butyou're in the grocery store or
you're, you know, walking downthe street, you kind of do these
things.
And I love the more practicetools that we can go, oh, right,
(38:56):
you know me.
I love to think about thisstuff.
I love to talk about thisstuff.
And then you do it and you'relike, that was nice.
I like it.
I want to do it again.
Tara Tonini (39:05):
Yeah.
And I always tell my New Yorkpatients, it's the greatest way
to get your own seat on thesubway.
Lisa Danylchuk (39:13):
Stretching out your arms.
Oh, I'm just all for yoursituation today.
But have you seen the episodeof 30 Rock where Liz Lemon
starts dressing up like she justlike paints her hair gray and
puts her hair sticking out andstarts just talking to nobody
and she figures out that shegets her own space in some way
that way.
She kind of like rounds overand scowls at people, kind of
(39:35):
like the like a wicked witchkind of vibe thing.
It's you can probably find aclue.
I'll see if I can find one andsend it to you.
I have so many thoughts.
I think this with guests likeyou, Tara, I'm like, we could
just do a whole season and likewe could talk about sleep one
day.
We could talk about gettingpregnant the next one, we could
(39:56):
talk about pregnancy, we couldtalk about postpartum, we could
talk about trauma.
And I know we're talking aboutall of that and weaving it in in
different ways.
There's a couple more things Iwant to see if we can connect
with here.
One of them is you mentionedqigong and what was the other
practice?
Tao Yen.
Dao Yen.
And I know there is somecrossover in some worlds where
(40:19):
folks will teach yoga in a waywhere they're including
information about the meridiansand Chinese medicine.
In your mind now, when you lookat yoga as a practice, and in
yoga, we would say the nadisinstead of the meridians, right?
The energy lines that gothrough the body, which aren't
an exact map of TCM and of themeridians, but they have
(40:41):
similarities.
What would you say is happeningthrough yoga practices?
And how can we use yoga in away that cultivates health from
a Chinese medicine perspective?
Tara Tonini (40:59):
So the yoga poses something that probably a lot of
your listeners are familiarwith, like Virbhadrasana 2 or
Warrior 2.
That's a huge meridian stretch.
So the inside of our legs,we're opening up the spleen, the
liver, and the kidney.
As the arms are expanding,we're opening up the both the
(41:21):
yin and the yang meridians ofthe arms.
So we've got our lung, ourpericardium, and our heart, and
then our large intestine, oursmall intestine, and our our
triple born or sandjiao, whichis a whole nother podcast
episode, the sandjiao, themystical sandjiao.
But if you think aboutstretching or expanding the
(41:43):
energy, kind of a liken to agarden hose.
So if anyone's ever had agarden hose in their hand and
kinked it, and it'll stop theflow of the water or at least
slow it down to a trickle.
And then when you open up thatgarden hose, the water will
really shoot further andfarther.
The same thing with our yogapostures.
(42:04):
So there's different ways thatwe can stretch and expand the
meridians, and then there's alsoways that we can like twist or
tot or constrict the meridiansto get that distribution between
expansion and contraction.
Lisa Danylchuk (42:19):
So the expansion and contraction in the yoga
practice can kind of open up theflow, like almost like a
lymphatic massage where there'scompression and then there's
expansion, and that helps moveuh qi or energy through.
Tara Tonini (42:32):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
And on a lot of East Asianexercise practices, you'll see
body tapping.
Um, so tapping the meridians isa wonderful way to move qi as
well.
Because when qi isn't movingfreely, that's where disharmony
arises.
So they'll say if the qi isfree-flowing, there's no pain,
(42:53):
there's no disharmony.
When the qi is stuck, there'spain, and often the mind,
because the body affects themind, will also be disturbed.
Lisa Danylchuk (43:06):
Can you talk about how your trauma-informed
training impacts the work you dotoday?
Tara Tonini (43:16):
Well, first of all, it got me in a lot of trouble
at school.
Lisa Danylchuk (43:20):
Yeah.
Tara Tonini (43:21):
How so?
Because I wasn't willing tomove at the pace of the school.
Lisa Danylchuk (43:29):
Wow.
Tara Tonini (43:29):
Um, I was much more rooted in my patient and like
centered in my patient care.
Lisa Danylchuk (43:36):
Yeah.
Tara Tonini (43:36):
And I wasn't willing to let the school's
parameters or limitations ortime frames take away from
centering my patient's care.
Interesting.
Um, so I got in a lot oftrouble.
Um, but I will say, in privatepractice, I think it's one of
(43:57):
the primary reasons why peopleseek me out as a care provider,
is my bedside manner iscompletely different.
The dialogue that I have withpatients is completely
different.
I'm always making sure that thepatient is at the forefront of
the care, and the patient isalways in the driver's seat of
when we begin needling.
(44:18):
If the needles aren't useful,they're the first ones to be in
the driver's seat of theirhealth with that.
And Chinese medicine is askedactively asking the patient to
be a participant in theirhealing journey.
We don't want any bystanders inthe health journey.
So the patient goes home withpractical and tangible things
(44:41):
that they get to do every singleday to create more vitality in
their lives.
Yeah, so it's definitelyshifted the way that I see the
beginning, middle, and end of atreatment.
Lisa Danylchuk (44:54):
Yes.
Tara Tonini (44:54):
Um, and also the way in which my patients are
active participants in theirhealing.
Yeah.
Sorry, we got you in sometrouble there, oh I got I, you
know me.
I'm not into following roles.
Lisa Danylchuk (45:13):
I know you're not.
You are an independent thinker.
It's one of the things I reallylike.
Oh I'm curious, just as someonewho met you in 2015 when you
joined the very first Yoga fortrauma online training that I
offered.
I'm curious what that journeyhas been like these past 10
years doing the Y4T training.
You did the first um advancedtraining in 2017.
(45:36):
So you are a founding member ofthe Center for Yoga and Trauma
Recovery.
How has that impacted the arcof your work?
Tara Tonini (45:46):
Oh I mean, like 10 years.
Lisa, wow, Y4T is rocket.
Lisa Danylchuk (45:53):
We have an anniversary party.
Yeah, congratulations.
Thank you.
I know, isn't it crazy?
It's been so long.
Tara Tonini (46:02):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I was still working infashion and I was logging on at
my desk, splitting the screenbetween like work emails and Y
for T training and like takingnotes underneath my desk.
Um, so that's kind of funny.
I think that that might behelpful for like listeners who
(46:24):
are interested in Y for T.
Like you don't have to be readyto do the thing to learn about
the thing.
Lisa Danylchuk (46:30):
Yeah.
Tara Tonini (46:31):
And then I would say the advanced training was
life-altering, mostly because itrooted me in community between
you and Megan and Molly.
I just feel like I have thissisterhood that you know I'm
having a crap day, and I pick upthe phone and everyone's
sending me emojis, and it's justlike the most loving crew I
(46:55):
could have ever dreamed for.
Lisa Danylchuk (46:58):
I'm so grateful that we were able to connect
through that program.
I just have so much respect foryour work and all the ways that
you've brought it together.
Thank you.
I feel like I remember yougetting like a reading somewhere
and someone saying, Oh,acupuncture, and you were like,
Oh, yeah.
Tara Tonini (47:16):
Yeah.
I went to India to study yogaand in southern India and
Kerala.
And I went to this Vedicastrologer who did my astrology
and was like, You're gonna be adoctor.
And I was like, No, and beingvery like, you know, American
about this.
No, I'm a yoga instructor.
(47:37):
What do you mean, a doctor?
And he's like, No, you're goingto be a doctor.
I couldn't have imagined backthen where I am right now.
It definitely was not in theforefront of my vision boards or
plans or wishes or dreams.
But I can honestly say, like, Iwas walking to work today this
(47:58):
morning, and every cell in mybody is like, this is exactly
where I need to be.
Yeah.
That feels good.
Lisa Danylchuk (48:05):
Yes.
I love that.
On those lines, what is alivefor you in your work right now?
What's coming up next for you?
Tara Tonini (48:15):
So, because I've met so many beautiful people
around the world, folks havebeen encouraging me to put
together an online communitythat's rooted in seasonal
medicine.
So we're using the lens ofChinese medicine specifically
for women's health.
And so it'll be just like amonthly offering, movement,
(48:36):
meditation, kitchen medicine forthe season.
And then um, I've been workingon a program for several years
now that goes through theChinese medicine approach to the
different phases of a menstrualcycle.
So through those lenses, welook at qi, we look at blood, we
look at yen, and we look atyang.
(48:58):
And I've taken mytrauma-informed yoga experience
and broke that down intomovement practices that help
with building vitality andboosting qi and nourishing yen
during those different phases ofthe menstrual cycle.
Lisa Danylchuk (49:14):
So sign me up.
Sign my 16-year-old self uptoo.
Like, why couldn't I have thissort of this level of support
around being a woman andmenstrual cycle from 12-year-old
self even?
Yeah.
So amazing for doing that andoffering that.
Thank you.
Tara Tonini (49:31):
Yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk (49:32):
I often ask folks what brings them hope, but
I'm feeling called to ask youinstead, what do you do for fun?
Because you're talking aboutfun as one of these elements.
So, how do you have fun?
Tara Tonini (49:46):
I have really been enjoying New York City and
pretending I'm a tourist in myown city.
Nice.
So every week I choose one NewYork City activity that's
specifically unique.
And it could be, it's typicallyfree because there's so many
free things to do in the city.
But I went to the Guggenheimthe other day, and then one day
(50:06):
I was like, I'm just gonna ridethe New York City ferry taxi.
I never do that.
And yeah, just pretending to bea tourist in my own city and
falling back in love with thereason why I live in New York.
Lisa Danylchuk (50:19):
Yes.
Oh, that's beautiful.
It's such a good practice.
Whenever I live somewhere andI've known that I was gonna
leave, like maybe it wastemporary, or maybe I decided to
move and then I knew I just hada few months left.
I would always bring thatapproach because all of a sudden
you have this limited time andit'd be, oh, well, I never done
that, I hadn't done this and Ihaven't done that.
And let me just go out to thispier that I've never been to
(50:42):
that everyone visits and takethis hike that I've always
wanted to.
And it's such a nice way tofall back in love with the
space, to create beautifulmemories, to have great
experiences and to have fun.
Tara Tonini (50:56):
Yeah.
Oh, I'll have to share thisbecause I think this community
would appreciate it.
One of my patients is workingon this research project with
different neuroscientists on ourbrain's connections to the
memories in our phones.
And so how they're measuringthe frequency that's going on
with our brains and thedifferent centers that get lit
(51:18):
up when we look back to pleasantmemories and experiences.
I think our culture is a littleover invested in the phone, but
there are so many positivethings that can come out of
documenting enjoyable momentsand really pleasurable
experiences.
Lisa Danylchuk (51:36):
Yeah, it's like so many things in life.
There are some substances orthings that we might use that
are really mostly harmful and wecan just cut out.
But for the most part, it'slike something like a phone.
We have a lot of studies andtalk about how screens can be
harmful or detrimental, butthere's so much amazingness too.
So if we're gonna be usingthem, if they're gonna be there,
(51:58):
can we maximize thatresourcing?
Because I love seeing thosememories.
And I've thought many times,well, I don't have a physical
photo book I used to print outand write things.
I don't do that anymore, but Isee things much more frequently
now.
Like I just got a memory from ayear ago of Isabella and we
went to this bike race in NevadaCity and just seeing it,
(52:18):
remembering it, feeling it againthis year, and it's really
beautiful.
So it's it is nice tohighlight, like you talked about
with food too.
Like, how can we bring in thenurturing elements of things?
I think in America we like tobe like, no, no, no, cut this
out, don't do that, don't dothat, right?
Like, but then what do I do?
And even with child rearing,yeah, let someone know that not
(52:43):
to do something, if especiallyif it's run into the street
while there's cars coming, butlike give them somewhere else to
go.
Like Isabella and I walked intoa store while Alex was on his
bike ride and it was all theselike crystal glass sculptures.
And I went, eyes only, babe,eyes only.
And the woman at the counterwas like, that's good.
I'm gonna use that.
(53:04):
Because you know, our ourinstinct is to say, Oh, it's
breakable.
Don't touch, don't touch, don'ttouch.
And then there's this like fearand oh yeah, I did something
bad or I did something wrong.
And and she listened, right?
She just looked around and thenstarted running back in and out
of the store 12 times.
So it worked out.
You I can't wait for you tomeet her, Tara.
(53:27):
You haven't met her yet.
I know.
No, just let the photos getthat babe in your arms.
Another parent said, I wish Icould keep every version of
them.
And I was like, Oh, that'sreally sweet.
Yeah, right.
It's like I'm glad I have thesememories to look back on in my
phone and like every day isdifferent, and it's really
(53:50):
beautiful.
Thank you, Tara, for comingtoday.
I just think I have 18,000ideas of different things we
could talk about, so maybe comeback.
Yeah, of course.
The Tara Panini show.
I will pick your brain and wewill organize it on different
(54:13):
topics and it will be fun.
It'll definitely be fun.
Awesome.
Thank you, Tara.
Thanks, Lisa.
Thank you so much forlistening.
Now, I'd really love to hearfrom you.
What resonated with you in thisepisode and what's on your mind
(54:33):
and in your heart as we bringthis conversation to a close?
Email me at info at how we canheal.com or share your answers
and what's been healing for youin the comments on Instagram, or
you'll find me at How We CanHeal.
Don't forget to go tohowwecanheal.com to sign up for
email updates as well.
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(54:56):
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Visit how we can heal.comforward slash podcast to share
(55:20):
your thoughts and ideas for theshow.
I always, always love hearingfrom you.
Before we wrap up for today, Iwant to be super clear that this
podcast isn't offeringprescriptions.
It's not advice, nor is it anykind of mental health treatment
or diagnosis.
Your decisions are in yourhands, and I encourage you to
(55:40):
consult with any healthcareprofessionals you may need to
support you through your uniquepath of healing.
In addition, everyone's opinionhere is their own, and opinions
can change.
Guests share their thoughts,not that of the host or
sponsors.
I'd like to thank our gueststoday and everyone who helped
(56:00):
support this podcast directlyand indirectly.
Alex, thanks for taking care ofthe babe and taking the fur
babies out while I record.
Last and never least, I'd liketo give a special shout out to
my big brother Matt, who passedaway in 2002.
He wrote this music and itmakes my heart so very happy to
share it with you here.
Welcome back to the How We Can Heal podcast.
Today our guest is Tara Tanini.
Tara is a licensedacupuncturist, Chinese
herbalist, and registered yogateacher specializing in women's
health.
She weaves together breath,movement, and medicine as tools
for healing, guiding her clientsthrough fertility, pregnancy,
(00:23):
postpartum, and the countlesstransitions of modern life.
She brings practices likeacupuncture, Chinese herbal
medicine, yoga, and qigong toher in-person healing sessions
in Brooklyn, New York, andoffers grounded, heart-centered
support through her website,teratonini.com.
I first met Tara over 10 yearsago when she signed up for the
(00:47):
very first online trainingprogram I offered in Yoga for
Trauma Recovery.
In today's conversation, we'llexplore how she integrates
trauma-informed care withtraditional Chinese medicine and
how these tools can supportwell-being, particularly during
the reproductive seasons oflife.
Tara is full of wisdom, heart,and humor, and I'm so happy to
(01:10):
share our conversation with youhere today.
Please join me in welcomingTara Tanini to the show.
Hello, Tara Tanini to the HowWe Can Health Podcast.
I'm so happy to have you here.
I've known you for a long, longtime, and I know you have so
much wisdom and brilliance toshare.
So I'm excited you're here.
Tara Tonini (01:32):
Thank you, Lisa.
Really excited to see you andbe with you and the wonderful
community that you're alwaysengaging and cultivating.
Lisa Danylchuk (01:40):
So not everyone knows you as well as I do.
I'm curious to frame yourbackground a little bit.
What sparked your interest inwomen's health, in healing, in
yoga and medicine?
How'd you get where you aretoday?
Tara Tonini (01:54):
Not in a simple journey, but I think that I've
always had a deep fascinationwith like Venusian culture and
everything goddess-related andgrowing up in the country and
being so intimately tied withnature has definitely made me
who I am.
And then my first degree andcareer was in the fashion
industry, and that was actuallythe introduction to Chinese
(02:18):
medicine.
I've been telling this story alot recently.
Is it funny?
Lisa Danylchuk (02:21):
Well, I want to hear it.
Yeah, I don't think I've heardthis one.
Tara Tonini (02:24):
All my patients say, You always say, Can I tell
you a funny story?
Lisa Danylchuk (02:30):
Yes.
Tara Tonini (02:31):
Yes, please.
So yeah, I was working in thefashion industry and landed this
amazing job that gave me awonderful opportunity to travel
all over.
And that lended me to ouroffice in Hong Kong.
And we would frequently visitthe factories in mainland China.
(02:52):
And because I was about 70%travel back then, I was
constantly getting sick fromthese long flights and different
time zone changes.
And the beautiful women in ourHong Kong office would always
take me down the street and getme Chinese herbs and make me
walk on this acupuncture stonefoot garden at the very top of
our office building.
(03:13):
And I went to get all thesecupping and treatments and
Chinese foot baths, and I wouldinstantly feel better.
And interestingly, that was theimmersion into traditional
Chinese medicine and all that ithas to offer.
Lisa Danylchuk (03:29):
I love that for so many reasons because you were
in need of support, like veryimmediate.
And then the people there arelike, come come, sister, we have
we have support for you.
And then it helped, but youweren't looking for it, right?
It kind of you and then thatseed that planted a how long ago
was that now?
(03:50):
How many years?
That was 2005.
20 years ago.
You get this seed planted, andthen here you are now with your
degree in traditional Chinesemedicine, with all this
experience as a yoga teacher, atrauma-informed practitioner, a
doula.
I feel like you've had so manylifetimes in your careers, and
(04:15):
we can understand fashion interms of like cultivating beauty
and cultivating health in thatway.
I know sometimes we see itthrough like other lenses too.
How are we choosing ourclothing and are we prioritizing
looks over well-being?
But everything else has been sodeeply about energetic healing,
right?
And then even in that fashionwork, there was that seed of
(04:37):
energetic healing that gotplanted 20 years ago.
I love it.
So you shared that people cometo you now.
You did all this work to getcertified to provide
acupuncture.
I mean, you've practiced allthese clinical hours.
You know how to do the thing,you can provide acupuncture.
(04:58):
And it feels like people arecoming to you more and more for
the energetic healing side, evenas you have this certification
that you work so hard for.
So talk about that.
What are you noticing in folks?
And what are you noticing asyou go out on your own as a
practitioner?
Tara Tonini (05:14):
Yeah.
I have this actual and reallyfascinating patient.
She was coming to me in betweenthe bridge of graduating school
and studying for my boards andmy license.
And we were doing energy work,and she kept saying, I can't
wait until you can really sticka needle in there.
And then, of course, I get thelicense and I have all the
(05:36):
tools, and I'm like, Okay, nowwe get the needles.
And she's like, Yeah, I justdecided this is my medicine.
I don't need the needles.
Lisa Danylchuk (05:44):
I don't need the needles.
Tara Tonini (05:47):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think acupuncture is aform of energy medicine, but I
think that a lot of people havea needle phobia that's actually
pre-verbal.
We go to our healthcareproviders with our parents, our
guardians, our caretakers that,you know, they love us, they
(06:08):
support us, they keep us healthyand fed, and um, they tell us
our shots aren't gonna hurt.
And then we see this strangeperson who has a needle, and we
get vaccinations, which, youknow, serve their purpose
absolutely in a medical modeland you know, as a global health
system, but they lied to usbecause it does hurt, it does
(06:30):
hurt.
And so I think that there'ssomething in in the psyche that
lends itself to needle phobia.
And so, even though people arevery acucurious, I think the
needle phobia might stem fromthat memory as the the body
memory, right?
And so I find that a lot ofpeople will say, like, I'm
(06:51):
curious, I think that thismedicine could really help my
strange, rare, and peculiarthing, but I'm not sure how I
feel about the needles.
So that's kind of where thingsare in my practice right now.
Lisa Danylchuk (07:04):
I have so many thoughts about that.
The first one being, I rememberbeing 16 and someone saying,
You're gonna get a shot and likeleaving the doctor's office,
like, nope, not an option.
I was like, I don't want it.
And no.
And there's probably somethingempowering and helpful about
that, because as an infant, youdon't have that option, right?
And I had an injury in college,a neck injury, whole story
(07:29):
there, won't tell it here now,but was in so much pain and I
did all the things, right?
Like I was still doing the yogathat I could.
It was pretty modified.
I was doing like massagechiropractic PT.
And I was just in pain.
And I was like, I'm gonna try.
As much as I've never been aneedle person or liked it, I've
always been like, no, I'm good.
(07:49):
No, I'll skip it.
I'm 16, I'll skip that painshot.
I'll just take the paininstead.
I decided to try acupuncture.
And I remember being at the AshHealth Center at UCLA, and I
was like, I'll just keep my eyesclosed.
If I don't see it, it doesn'tactually the acupuncture needles
don't really hurt.
Every once in a while, you getlike a stingy one or a pinchy
(08:09):
one like going in, but then theydon't hurt when you're sitting
there, right?
So it's like I'm not gonna lookand I'm just gonna get the
acupuncture.
And it helped so much, Tara.
Like it was the only thing Iwould walk out of there, and my
pain was gone.
I remember I was like, the leftside of my neck is hurt.
So I got acupuncture on theleft and I walked out and I was
like, oh, I think the righthurts too, because now I really
feel that, right?
So the next time I was likeboth sides.
(08:31):
And I would get like two, threedays of pain relief.
So I just kept going backslowly over time.
I'd start to like peek and openmy eyes, open one eye and be
like, okay, all right, that'sokay.
So I had this likedesensitization process and like
comfort building through therelationship with my provider.
She was very kind, verysupportive and gentle through
(08:52):
keeping my eyes closed, throughjust like coming around to it.
So it's so interesting thatyou're noticing that in your
practice as you're supportingpeople.
Do you have a specificpopulation you're working with?
Is it pretty general or are youfocused still on parenting, on
pregnancy?
Tara Tonini (09:12):
I tend to attract people who are either in the
conception phase or arecurrently pregnant.
And then because I'm sopassionate about the birth
process and yeah, it just likelights me up and fascinates me.
So I think that that passionreally attracts birthing people
and they are care providers,which I wouldn't say my practice
(09:35):
is solely birth prep, but Ithink it's a significant amount
of my patient population rightnow.
Lisa Danylchuk (09:41):
And how would you describe the work you're
doing for birth prep?
What are some pillars in yourmind of like this is what this
baby needs, this is what thismama, this family needs.
What are things that stand outthat you're offering in terms of
that support?
Tara Tonini (09:56):
I think people come to Chinese medicine with what I
call the strange, the rare, andthe peculiar.
So it's like something thatthey know is not in balance or
something that they can likedeeply trust in their body is
out of alignment.
And maybe they go to abiomedical western model, and
you know, rightfully so, theyhave all the imaging, they have
(10:18):
all the blood tests, they allhave their hormonal checks, and
everything's within that healthyrange, but within them, they
know something's off.
And so many people come to meas like a last resort, or they
like Google, what do I do whenyou know this test is showing
negative?
And oftentimes in that search,Chinese medicine will pop up.
(10:40):
And so I would say that onething I feel really passionate
about telling my patients is totrust that innate wisdom of
their body, and Chinese medicinespeaks so truly to that because
we're always looking forharmony between the exterior
world and our internalenvironment because our bodies
(11:01):
are simply a microcosm of what'sgoing on around us.
And so the goal is always tobring more harmony, more
balance, more ease, and like welearn, and I've learned from you
in trauma recovery, like agreater capacity for both the
highs and the lows and the joysand the discomforts.
(11:21):
And that's really what Chinesemedicine has to offer.
Lisa Danylchuk (11:25):
I love that as I hear my daughter squealing in
the background.
Like it's the relationshipbetween the external world and
the internal world, right?
And yeah, I feel like sometimesin health we can get, um,
especially perhaps from anAmerican perspective, we can get
really rigid with like whatthat needs to look like.
I need to have my continuouseight hours of sleep every
(11:48):
night.
I need to have these vegetablesand this amount of protein and
this, like every day.
And I'm a fan of structure.
And sometimes it's unrealisticin a way that like my experience
at times is then it separatesme from what's actually
happening in reality because Ihave all these like goals and
expectations that maybe at sometimes in life are possible to
(12:09):
meet.
But when your daughter's upfrom one to five, like you're
not gonna get eight hours ofcontinuous sleep.
And I noticed this, I followsome really funny accounts on
Instagram about this too, wherewhen people have, especially one
or two or three, a number ofyoung children, that kind of
theme of getting your needs metin the moment best you can and
(12:31):
letting that be okay beingreally important.
I'm wondering if there'sanything specific from Chinese
medicine that you would sharewith parents of young children,
people who have physicallypushed the baby out of their
body and are healing andrecovering from that in those
first couple years, and areriding those waves of a whole
(12:54):
new person in the household, newrhythms to figure out, trying
desperately to take care ofthemselves, because we all know
self-care is important and weall know if the parents aren't
getting good care, theneverything else falls apart.
But like it can start to feellike pressure.
Do you see that where peoplestart to feel like, well, now
(13:14):
I'm also not doing that right?
Like I didn't eat enoughprotein yesterday, and I uh I
just ate in the middle of thenight because I was hungry and I
wasn't supposed to do that, inquotes, right?
I'm curious from the Chinesemedicine model, what you see
that helps to foster somesupport in that space that can
feel chaotic, right, andunpredictable.
Tara Tonini (13:37):
Yeah, I think just really going back to the basics
of yen and yang theory.
When I'm struggling, or if apatient is struggling, I like to
think of that discomfort asyang.
And yang will increase,increase, increase until it
peaks, and then it has nothingto do but turn back into yen.
(13:57):
And so it's like thisinterdependent, reciprocal
nature that we learn from thenatural world outside of us, but
we're a little far removed fromit because we're not living
right in nature, at least mostof us aren't.
But I like to think of thatsymbol of yen and yang and how
yang will not last forever,therefore, discomfort will not
(14:20):
last forever.
And then the opposite is trueas well.
And I think for me, at least,that's what helps me really hold
on to those sacred, delicious,sweet moments and kind of
bookmark them in my mind and mybody because even the good stuff
doesn't last forever.
Lisa Danylchuk (14:37):
It reminds me of I know you used to teach
trauma-informed bar classes, youknow, doing those like little
super painful thigh squats andthings and saying that, all
right, this isn't gonna lastforever.
And I remember hearing you saysomething about that while I was
pregnant, and I was like, lookat Tara, she's teaching in this
way that's trauma-informed,people still have options.
(14:57):
It's also good birth prep,right, for contractions, like
really feeling and knowing,okay, this young is gonna peak,
and then there's gonna be alittle yin valley.
Unless you're in back labor, Ilearned, then you don't have the
valley.
That hurts.
Tara Tonini (15:10):
Then yeah, or if you're on Pentosin.
Sorry.
Right.
Right.
Yeah, sorry, there are thereare caveats here.
Lisa Danylchuk (15:16):
Are there any principles in Chinese medicine?
So I studied for almost a yearwhen I was in Bologna, Italy.
So I have this very basic, veryold, very Italian uh basis of
Chinese medicine in my brainthat I'm very grateful for.
But I remember learning at thattime about the impact of trauma
on kidney, on liver.
(15:39):
And I've always held that withme, like my back and my knees
start hurting.
I'm like, oh, okay, maybe I'mkidney deficient.
I'm always asking myacupunctures.
I would love a funny story too,but I'm always like, look at my
tongue.
Is it kidney yin deficiency?
Is it liver qi stagnation?
They're like, well, if you'realive in the world, you probably
have liver chi stagnation.
I'm like, okay.
(16:00):
So what are some of the likenormal everyday people things
that are super common in Chinesemedicine?
And what can we do about that?
And then I want to ask aboutthe more specific trauma ones.
Tara Tonini (16:11):
Yeah, so similar to what you were saying, um the
meridian system also coincideswith our internal organs.
And so liver is very important,especially for biological
females, because this is what'sgoing to course the qi, which is
like our life force energy, ourvitality, the prana.
It's going to course it.
And when it's coursing freely,we are asymptomatic, especially
(16:35):
in our menstrual cycles.
But when the liver chi isn'tcoursing freely, we experience
as menstruating people a lot ofdisharmony, or sometimes we
could think of it as a pathologyor dysfunction.
So when a patient comes to meand they'll say, like, I have
dysmenorrhea, painful periods,or I have amenorrhea, no period,
(16:55):
or I have endometriosis, whichis a very complex um menstrual
disorder, um, the first thing Ilook to is the liver, and I get
really curious about that.
And then, yeah, in terms oftrauma, the scholars of Chinese
medicine really understoodlineage and they really observed
(17:16):
how kind of going back to likeepigenetics of this massive
immersion and the most recentresearch is that what and how
we're holding and living getspassed to future generations.
And that could be extremelypositive and sometimes it's not
so helpful, but that all comesfrom the kidney and specifically
(17:36):
something that we call jing,which is our essence.
And when it comes to Chinesemedicine and also like a trauma
model, is we only have so muchjing.
So if you think of like yourbank account, we want to keep
that bank account as vital aspossible so that we're not
running low on funds.
And we're born with X amount ofJing, X amount of essence, and
(18:01):
that is you know a derivative ofwhat came from our parents'
piggy banks, if you will.
So, not to like shame or blameour ancestors, because I think
for most of them, they weredoing the best that they could
with their resources andcircumstances, but um, there are
certain things that we could doto hold on to as much of our
(18:22):
bank account or as much as ourchi, especially our kidney chi
as possible.
And the first two things arealways lifestyle.
So, how are we eating, how arewe pooping, how are we sleeping,
how are we resting, and how arewe having fun?
And we don't want any of thosein excess, but we don't want any
(18:43):
of them completely in depletioneither.
So we're gonna have enough funand enough sleep and enough food
and enough drink and enoughbowel movements.
Lisa Danylchuk (18:54):
Always comes back to the pooping.
Tara Tonini (18:56):
It always comes back to the poop.
Lisa Danylchuk (18:58):
Super funny side note someone sent me a meme of
a kid where in picture one theysaid smile for the camera.
In picture two, they said poop.
And the kid's smile, pictureone was a little bit of a forced
a nice smile.
Picture two with poop was justface lit up laughing.
Just capturing so much joy.
Tara Tonini (19:21):
Yeah.
And if you're not pooping,you're probably not smiling.
Lisa Danylchuk (19:24):
That's true.
So that impacts the otherelement.
You're not saying you might notbe having as much fun as you
could be.
Right.
And that makes me think of thiswhole I was just having a
conversation with Alex over theweekend where we went away and
we had fun and we got sleep,which was great.
But we were talking about thediagnosis of IBS and how I had
(19:46):
Kathleen Kendall Packett on thepodcast to talk about maternal
mental health.
But we were talking aboutpsychoneuroimmunology and how
there are a number of things inWestern medicine that have a
label, but we don't really havethe etiology.
We don't fully understand howor why they come to be.
And IBS being one of those,like, oh, well, there's
(20:08):
something going on.
We're not really sure why.
Maybe we've done some allergytests, we didn't get any
information.
Uh, but there's there'ssomething happening in there.
And I think so much about thepsychoneuroimmunology of if
you're not, if your eating isrushed all the time, like
Italians make fun of us becausewe eat while we're walking and
driving as Americans, right?
(20:29):
And they're like, what are youdoing?
Like, go home, sit down, andthen eat.
If we're not getting enoughsleep, and maybe at some point
Kathleen and I'll do an entireepisode on sleep because we were
talking about that too.
If we're not having fun and allthe biology that happens when
we're playing and having fun,that's also going to impact our
digestion, right?
(20:49):
Like our physiological state inall of those experiences
impacts how we're digesting.
So could impact whether or notwe're pooping or how hard it is
or how frequent it is.
You know what started theconversation?
It was a bumper sticker thatsaid, sorry for speeding, I have
IBS.
Full circle back to the poopjokes.
(21:11):
Full circle, sorry forspeeding, I have IBS.
All this to say, all of thesethings that we're taking care
of, the yin and yang, the liverenergy, the kidney essence, the
xing, all of that connects withour lifestyle.
So I'm kind of hearing fromwhat you're saying this
traditional Chinese medicineview of what I see from a very
(21:36):
like Western trauma-informedpsychoneuroimmunology model.
I feel like there's crossoverthere where we're like the way
we experience things, ourrelationships, our experience
with food, our sleep, allimpacts, our digestion, our
pain, right?
Inflammation in the body, allthese things.
What can people do to supporthealth there?
(21:58):
And what can people do, maybeif they're not even, they don't
have access to acupuncture, justto support lifestyle-wise,
these organs, these meridians?
Tara Tonini (22:08):
Yeah, so I'm going back to my roots is eat
seasonally.
Yeah.
First of all, it's more costefficient.
So if you are a person thateats fresh fruits and
vegetables, when they're inseason, they're more cost
efficient.
And then the second thing iscoming back to that mirrored
reflection of our externalenvironment with our internal
(22:29):
environment.
So eating with the seasons, Ithink, is one of the most
practical, like down-to-earthways, which I find, you know, my
patient population, they're NewYorkers.
A lot of folks have been bornand raised in the city and have
no idea what fruits andvegetables are in season.
And like I grew up on a farm.
So I'm, you know, like I'm thecomplete opposite.
(22:51):
So I like to tell my patients,go to the farmer's market in
your neighborhood and letyourself, you know, outside of
the baked goods, let yourselfeat whatever there.
Like with whatever is on thetable of produce, you get to
have fun with that in whateverway, shape, or form it comes up.
You know, baked goods are alittle bit different depending
(23:12):
on people's digestive tracts.
But easy eating seasonally,it's I think very cost efficient
and a great way to get backinto that natural rhythm and
seasonal ebbs and flows.
Lisa Danylchuk (23:26):
So when you're talking about internal
environment reflecting external,are you focusing mostly on the
seasons or are there otherthings that are packed into that
description?
Tara Tonini (23:38):
For a modern person, it goes a little bit
deeper because we have theability and the great privilege
to be able to turn water on andit comes out of the facet and
adjusts the temperature of thewater.
And one of the great evils inChinese medicine is cold.
But as a developed nation, wehave the ability to turn our
(23:58):
heaters on and blow dry our wethair before we go to bed.
So while there is still like acold element that we want to
protect our bodies from, we alsowant to start looking into the
opposite.
So what is drying our bodies?
So I find like this is notpoo-pooing anyone's yum of hot
yoga, but I find a lot of mypatients that are hot yogi fans,
(24:22):
a lot of hot yoga people arechronically dehydrated and
therefore are yin deficient.
So we can look to the naturalworld, but we can also get
curious about where is there alot of excess and where might
they be a little bit more of adeficiency in our more modern
environment as well.
Lisa Danylchuk (24:43):
And then are you looking at the elements there?
And you're talking about water,are you thinking also about
earth and metal and those otherthings in that model?
Tara Tonini (24:52):
I mean, I am because that's where my brain
goes.
But um to make it like veryapproachable and tangible from
my patients, we root it in thereality of their world.
So what does their environmentlook like?
I'm also a big fan of notrestricting things from people.
So, you know, like if you tellme not to wear socks, I'm going
(25:16):
to want to wear socks.
Lisa Danylchuk (25:17):
Yeah.
Tara Tonini (25:18):
So I'm a big fan of introducing things in to create
a feeling of abundance andnourishment rather than like
saying, do not use these thingsor do not consume these things.
Lisa Danylchuk (25:30):
Yes.
Another thought that I just waswondering about as you were
talking about cold is howpopular cold immersion is.
And I don't see people speakingabout it seasonally.
I see a lot of research onathletes and do you do it right
after a workout or later?
And is it impacting your musclegain in a positive or a
negative way?
And there's some research,thankfully, on gender there too.
(25:53):
I haven't seen a ton becauseit's pretty much unethical to do
randomized control inpregnancy.
Most people I've seen avoidcold plunges while they're
pregnant.
And most of that is justthrough the recommendation for
the warmth and the especiallyearly postpartum, that like cozy
warm vibe that so many folksrecommend.
(26:14):
So I'm wondering if you workwith people who practice cold
plunging, if you have thoughtsabout it from a Chinese medicine
perspective.
Tara Tonini (26:23):
Again, I don't want to yuck anyone's yum, but like
from my clinical view, it's abig no-no.
I can remove myself from myChinese medicine lens and look
at it from a biomedical model interms of invigorating the
nervous system and increasingthe circulatory system, but it's
(26:44):
a shock to the system.
And when the body is shocked,it's scattering the qi of the
kidney.
Lisa Danylchuk (26:52):
Okay.
Yeah.
Tara Tonini (26:54):
And going back to like a birthing person's uh
experience, um the cesarean ratein the United States is very,
very high for a developednation.
And a lot of people are havingbirth experiences in a surgical
room, which, you know, by thegrace of modern medicine, we
have the access to thesewonderful tools and advancements
(27:17):
in medicine.
It's an extremely coldenvironment.
And so I find a lot ofpostpartum patients come to me,
and even if I just put my handon their abdomen, it would feel
like an ice cube in their belly.
And so full circle back to thecold.
That's something that I'mhelping patients to like really
understand and be inrelationship with is like what
(27:39):
is the temperature of your ownbody?
Lisa Danylchuk (27:42):
Yeah.
There's so much wisdom ineverything you've studied and
the way that it integrates.
So I'm aware that we're sort ofjumping around to different
things.
But I do want to come back to,you know, we had started with
general folks, liver kidneystuff.
What about someone who ispreparing for pregnancy?
What are some things to thinkabout, things to notice you
would highlight there?
Tara Tonini (28:04):
This would bring us over to the earth element,
which is the spleen and thestomach, when we can really
optimize our digestive tractthat's going to create
nutrient-rich blood in theendometrium layer so that that
life force can actually beimplanted into the womb.
So I always like to think aboutlike blood building uh
(28:26):
nourishment, coming back to theworm.
So if you're trying toconceive, cover up those feet,
make sure you have warm, cozysocks as often as possible.
Uh, hot foot soaks work reallywell.
And hot foot soaks, I've alsonoticed this is just like a
clinical antidote.
A lot of my patients who haveinsomnia.
(28:47):
So either the ability to or theinability rather to fall asleep
or remain asleep.
When we start to introduce anherbal foot soak before bed, it
really grounds the chi and canhelp people sleep more restfully
and fall asleep more restfullytoo.
So keeping those feet warm,keeping the belly and the lower
back warm.
(29:08):
And then slowing down.
I think of like that conceptionand family planning stage as
crossing the threshold into whatyour life could be like as a
parent and thinking aboutslowing down and cultivating
like what is a priority and whatcan be let go of so that you
can really hone in on the energyand vitality of welcoming in
(29:32):
this new energy and loved oneinto your family unit.
Lisa Danylchuk (29:36):
Yeah, I found that really important for
myself.
I have, I don't think you cansee it in the frame, but just
outside the frame here, I havethe wall calendar, and every
year, about this time of year,it's about time, I'll buy a new
one for the next year and I'llplan out oh, where are we
traveling and where am Iteaching and what's gonna go,
you know.
And when I knew I wanted tohave Isabella or to get
(29:59):
pregnant.
And I didn't even get acalendar.
I was just like, nope.
This is the intention.
It is the only intention.
Nothing else matters this year.
It's not about planning.
And you know, everyone'sdifferent.
Some people are still going toneed that sort of structure.
But I was just like, nope, it'sall about the babe right now.
(30:21):
So that slowing down and thatinviting in a new person very
intentionally.
And I find what you say to betrue.
And either folks areintentionally creating that
space and slowing down, or ithappens and it's kind of a shock
and challenging to navigatebecause yeah, priorities do
change and things change.
(30:43):
So what have you found then inpregnant postpartum general
supports that maybe folkshaven't heard about from a
Chinese medicine perspective?
Tara Tonini (31:00):
We call this um, it gets often translated into
English as sitting the moon.
It's called the Zowetsa period.
So it's 30 days of sometimestranslated as confinement, but I
think that sounds really harsh.
Yeah.
I guess it depends on whoyou're with in your your
postpartum phase.
(31:21):
But it's a time that thebirthing person gets really
parented.
So historically they would saylike the mother gets mothered.
And I think what I've observedas a birth worker in American
culture is all of the love,care, and affection goes to the
baby, which is wonderful becausewe're grading this new life
(31:42):
force in the world.
But very little attention ispaid to the birthing person or
the mama.
So food is prepared in a veryparticular way.
We have very strict, gorgeous,gorgeous herbal regimes.
So this is like one of mypassions is to go into the
postpartum home and cook the rawherbs and that aromatic
(32:05):
infusion into the home or theapartment and preparing food
that's easily to digest andreally helps expediting the
healing process.
And yeah, that's kind of whereI'm more and more being called
to in both like a professionaland personal space right now.
Lisa Danylchuk (32:26):
It's such a beautiful and in my mind and
heart, like a naturalexperience, like a very human
experience to have.
I was lucky to have apostpartum doula who came in, I
think only twice a week forthose first six weeks.
And I had, you know, a fewbooks like the first 40 days, or
you had sent a recipe to thatAlex lovingly prepared.
(32:49):
And so had these like aromaticherbs and you know, snacks with
dates and almond butter androses sprinkled on top.
And it was so nurturing.
And even the smells and the thewhat you were talking about,
the essence filling the home.
There's something about thatthat feels really grounding and
(33:11):
nurturing and felt reallysupportive for me personally.
So I love that you're goinginto that.
You're feeling called intothat.
I'm really upset that you're sofar away because it's not
really eco-friendly to go fromBrooklyn to California at this
stage.
But um, I just feel like Iwould love to have had you and
have you nearby for those typesof experiences because you're so
(33:32):
good at that.
It's such a natural fit foryou.
Thank you.
Yeah.
So let's talk a little bitabout trauma from the Chinese
medicine perspective.
What are things people can do?
And if there are caveats forpregnancy postpartum, let's talk
about those as well.
(33:52):
But let's start with just folksin general.
If they've been exposed totrauma, what are some general
principles from Chinese medicinethat folks might benefit from
being aware of?
Tara Tonini (34:05):
I mean, trauma will affect all of the body or all
of the meridians, all of theinternal organs.
But it has the biggest impacton the kidney and the heart.
Interestingly, in Chinesemedicine, heart and mind have
the same, they're the same name,shen and shin.
And so sometimes as aEnglish-speaking student of
(34:29):
Chinese medicine, I would getreally confused.
Are they talking about the mindor are they talking about the
heart?
Which Shin is this?
Um, but yeah, so the mind, theheart, and the kidneys
definitely take the big blow.
But interestingly, so does thepericardium.
So the pericardium, maybeyou're familiar with this
(34:52):
because I I know a lot of myCalifornia friends are.
Are you familiar with thebeautiful shrines from Mexico?
And they're often made out oflike a clay or a really
beautiful wood, and they havelike ten hinges, and the shrine
doors can open and close, andoftentimes there's like some
form of a deity inside.
Yeah.
I think of the pericardium asthe shrine, and when the
(35:17):
pericardium is functioningproperly, it has really well
lubricated hinges.
And so when something impactsthe heart, the pericardium will
close its doors to protect theheart, and it'll take every
impact it can to protect theheart until it can no longer
protect it.
And so, in terms of integrationof and healing of trauma, we
(35:42):
really want to work thatpericardium.
And I like to think of likelubricating the hinges so it can
open and close properly aftertraumatic events, so that we can
build our resiliencies, so thatwe can lean into and orient
towards safety, and that we canalso come back to that
(36:02):
self-protection if and when weneed.
And one way that we can do thatthrough the lens of Chinese
medicine is working with thelung, part, and pericardium
channels on the inner arm.
And just like we do fortrauma-informed yoga, using the
breath and using the body fromthat top-down and bottom-up
approach.
(36:22):
It's not called yoga throughthe lens of Chinese medicine, it
would be called uh qigong ordaoyen practice, and all that
means is inner alchemy or usingthe breath and the body to move
qi.
Do you want to do a practice?
Is that interesting?
Okay.
So, and people might haveexperienced this also in some Y
(36:44):
for T movement, but we couldjust start off with our hands on
our body if that feelsinteresting.
Just taking a moment to feelyour palms and the way in which
they're making contact with thetexture of your clothes or maybe
even the temperature of yourskin.
(37:05):
Yeah, and I just could beopened or closed, and just
getting a sense of how thebreath is coming in and out of
the body.
And if and when it feels right,we're just gonna expand the
arms any amount that feelsinteresting.
So it could be low, it could behigh.
(37:27):
Just taking the arms outward,and then when you've found a
place where they've expanded to,we're just gonna bring it right
back in.
And I always like to link mymovement with my breath.
So if that feels interestingfor you, you could inhale as you
expand the chi.
And then exhale as that chicomes back to center.
(37:53):
Breathing in the chi expands.
And then breathing out the chicenters.
And then just trying to do twoor three more at your own pace.
You can get creative with thearms, you could even flex the
(38:13):
wrists or move the hands around.
Lisa Danylchuk (38:34):
I love it so much.
I love simple things that wecan do most anywhere.
Like maybe you don't stretchyour arms straight out to the
side while you're driving, butyou're in the grocery store or
you're, you know, walking downthe street, you kind of do these
things.
And I love the more practicetools that we can go, oh, right,
(38:56):
you know me.
I love to think about thisstuff.
I love to talk about thisstuff.
And then you do it and you'relike, that was nice.
I like it.
I want to do it again.
Tara Tonini (39:05):
Yeah.
And I always tell my New Yorkpatients, it's the greatest way
to get your own seat on thesubway.
Lisa Danylchuk (39:13):
Stretching out your arms.
Oh, I'm just all for yoursituation today.
But have you seen the episodeof 30 Rock where Liz Lemon
starts dressing up like she justlike paints her hair gray and
puts her hair sticking out andstarts just talking to nobody
and she figures out that shegets her own space in some way
that way.
She kind of like rounds overand scowls at people, kind of
(39:35):
like the like a wicked witchkind of vibe thing.
It's you can probably find aclue.
I'll see if I can find one andsend it to you.
I have so many thoughts.
I think this with guests likeyou, Tara, I'm like, we could
just do a whole season and likewe could talk about sleep one
day.
We could talk about gettingpregnant the next one, we could
(39:56):
talk about pregnancy, we couldtalk about postpartum, we could
talk about trauma.
And I know we're talking aboutall of that and weaving it in in
different ways.
There's a couple more things Iwant to see if we can connect
with here.
One of them is you mentionedqigong and what was the other
practice?
Tao Yen.
Dao Yen.
And I know there is somecrossover in some worlds where
(40:19):
folks will teach yoga in a waywhere they're including
information about the meridiansand Chinese medicine.
In your mind now, when you lookat yoga as a practice, and in
yoga, we would say the nadisinstead of the meridians, right?
The energy lines that gothrough the body, which aren't
an exact map of TCM and of themeridians, but they have
(40:41):
similarities.
What would you say is happeningthrough yoga practices?
And how can we use yoga in away that cultivates health from
a Chinese medicine perspective?
Tara Tonini (40:59):
So the yoga poses something that probably a lot of
your listeners are familiarwith, like Virbhadrasana 2 or
Warrior 2.
That's a huge meridian stretch.
So the inside of our legs,we're opening up the spleen, the
liver, and the kidney.
As the arms are expanding,we're opening up the both the
(41:21):
yin and the yang meridians ofthe arms.
So we've got our lung, ourpericardium, and our heart, and
then our large intestine, oursmall intestine, and our our
triple born or sandjiao, whichis a whole nother podcast
episode, the sandjiao, themystical sandjiao.
But if you think aboutstretching or expanding the
(41:43):
energy, kind of a liken to agarden hose.
So if anyone's ever had agarden hose in their hand and
kinked it, and it'll stop theflow of the water or at least
slow it down to a trickle.
And then when you open up thatgarden hose, the water will
really shoot further andfarther.
The same thing with our yogapostures.
(42:04):
So there's different ways thatwe can stretch and expand the
meridians, and then there's alsoways that we can like twist or
tot or constrict the meridiansto get that distribution between
expansion and contraction.
Lisa Danylchuk (42:19):
So the expansion and contraction in the yoga
practice can kind of open up theflow, like almost like a
lymphatic massage where there'scompression and then there's
expansion, and that helps moveuh qi or energy through.
Tara Tonini (42:32):
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
And on a lot of East Asianexercise practices, you'll see
body tapping.
Um, so tapping the meridians isa wonderful way to move qi as
well.
Because when qi isn't movingfreely, that's where disharmony
arises.
So they'll say if the qi isfree-flowing, there's no pain,
(42:53):
there's no disharmony.
When the qi is stuck, there'spain, and often the mind,
because the body affects themind, will also be disturbed.
Lisa Danylchuk (43:06):
Can you talk about how your trauma-informed
training impacts the work you dotoday?
Tara Tonini (43:16):
Well, first of all, it got me in a lot of trouble
at school.
Lisa Danylchuk (43:20):
Yeah.
Tara Tonini (43:21):
How so?
Because I wasn't willing tomove at the pace of the school.
Lisa Danylchuk (43:29):
Wow.
Tara Tonini (43:29):
Um, I was much more rooted in my patient and like
centered in my patient care.
Lisa Danylchuk (43:36):
Yeah.
Tara Tonini (43:36):
And I wasn't willing to let the school's
parameters or limitations ortime frames take away from
centering my patient's care.
Interesting.
Um, so I got in a lot oftrouble.
Um, but I will say, in privatepractice, I think it's one of
(43:57):
the primary reasons why peopleseek me out as a care provider,
is my bedside manner iscompletely different.
The dialogue that I have withpatients is completely
different.
I'm always making sure that thepatient is at the forefront of
the care, and the patient isalways in the driver's seat of
when we begin needling.
(44:18):
If the needles aren't useful,they're the first ones to be in
the driver's seat of theirhealth with that.
And Chinese medicine is askedactively asking the patient to
be a participant in theirhealing journey.
We don't want any bystanders inthe health journey.
So the patient goes home withpractical and tangible things
(44:41):
that they get to do every singleday to create more vitality in
their lives.
Yeah, so it's definitelyshifted the way that I see the
beginning, middle, and end of atreatment.
Lisa Danylchuk (44:54):
Yes.
Tara Tonini (44:54):
Um, and also the way in which my patients are
active participants in theirhealing.
Yeah.
Sorry, we got you in sometrouble there, oh I got I, you
know me.
I'm not into following roles.
Lisa Danylchuk (45:13):
I know you're not.
You are an independent thinker.
It's one of the things I reallylike.
Oh I'm curious, just as someonewho met you in 2015 when you
joined the very first Yoga fortrauma online training that I
offered.
I'm curious what that journeyhas been like these past 10
years doing the Y4T training.
You did the first um advancedtraining in 2017.
(45:36):
So you are a founding member ofthe Center for Yoga and Trauma
Recovery.
How has that impacted the arcof your work?
Tara Tonini (45:46):
Oh I mean, like 10 years.
Lisa, wow, Y4T is rocket.
Lisa Danylchuk (45:53):
We have an anniversary party.
Yeah, congratulations.
Thank you.
I know, isn't it crazy?
It's been so long.
Tara Tonini (46:02):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I was still working infashion and I was logging on at
my desk, splitting the screenbetween like work emails and Y
for T training and like takingnotes underneath my desk.
Um, so that's kind of funny.
I think that that might behelpful for like listeners who
(46:24):
are interested in Y for T.
Like you don't have to be readyto do the thing to learn about
the thing.
Lisa Danylchuk (46:30):
Yeah.
Tara Tonini (46:31):
And then I would say the advanced training was
life-altering, mostly because itrooted me in community between
you and Megan and Molly.
I just feel like I have thissisterhood that you know I'm
having a crap day, and I pick upthe phone and everyone's
sending me emojis, and it's justlike the most loving crew I
(46:55):
could have ever dreamed for.
Lisa Danylchuk (46:58):
I'm so grateful that we were able to connect
through that program.
I just have so much respect foryour work and all the ways that
you've brought it together.
Thank you.
I feel like I remember yougetting like a reading somewhere
and someone saying, Oh,acupuncture, and you were like,
Oh, yeah.
Tara Tonini (47:16):
Yeah.
I went to India to study yogaand in southern India and
Kerala.
And I went to this Vedicastrologer who did my astrology
and was like, You're gonna be adoctor.
And I was like, No, and beingvery like, you know, American
about this.
No, I'm a yoga instructor.
(47:37):
What do you mean, a doctor?
And he's like, No, you're goingto be a doctor.
I couldn't have imagined backthen where I am right now.
It definitely was not in theforefront of my vision boards or
plans or wishes or dreams.
But I can honestly say, like, Iwas walking to work today this
(47:58):
morning, and every cell in mybody is like, this is exactly
where I need to be.
Yeah.
That feels good.
Lisa Danylchuk (48:05):
Yes.
I love that.
On those lines, what is alivefor you in your work right now?
What's coming up next for you?
Tara Tonini (48:15):
So, because I've met so many beautiful people
around the world, folks havebeen encouraging me to put
together an online communitythat's rooted in seasonal
medicine.
So we're using the lens ofChinese medicine specifically
for women's health.
And so it'll be just like amonthly offering, movement,
(48:36):
meditation, kitchen medicine forthe season.
And then um, I've been workingon a program for several years
now that goes through theChinese medicine approach to the
different phases of a menstrualcycle.
So through those lenses, welook at qi, we look at blood, we
look at yen, and we look atyang.
(48:58):
And I've taken mytrauma-informed yoga experience
and broke that down intomovement practices that help
with building vitality andboosting qi and nourishing yen
during those different phases ofthe menstrual cycle.
Lisa Danylchuk (49:14):
So sign me up.
Sign my 16-year-old self uptoo.
Like, why couldn't I have thissort of this level of support
around being a woman andmenstrual cycle from 12-year-old
self even?
Yeah.
So amazing for doing that andoffering that.
Thank you.
Tara Tonini (49:31):
Yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk (49:32):
I often ask folks what brings them hope, but
I'm feeling called to ask youinstead, what do you do for fun?
Because you're talking aboutfun as one of these elements.
So, how do you have fun?
Tara Tonini (49:46):
I have really been enjoying New York City and
pretending I'm a tourist in myown city.
Nice.
So every week I choose one NewYork City activity that's
specifically unique.
And it could be, it's typicallyfree because there's so many
free things to do in the city.
But I went to the Guggenheimthe other day, and then one day
(50:06):
I was like, I'm just gonna ridethe New York City ferry taxi.
I never do that.
And yeah, just pretending to bea tourist in my own city and
falling back in love with thereason why I live in New York.
Lisa Danylchuk (50:19):
Yes.
Oh, that's beautiful.
It's such a good practice.
Whenever I live somewhere andI've known that I was gonna
leave, like maybe it wastemporary, or maybe I decided to
move and then I knew I just hada few months left.
I would always bring thatapproach because all of a sudden
you have this limited time andit'd be, oh, well, I never done
that, I hadn't done this and Ihaven't done that.
And let me just go out to thispier that I've never been to
(50:42):
that everyone visits and takethis hike that I've always
wanted to.
And it's such a nice way tofall back in love with the
space, to create beautifulmemories, to have great
experiences and to have fun.
Tara Tonini (50:56):
Yeah.
Oh, I'll have to share thisbecause I think this community
would appreciate it.
One of my patients is workingon this research project with
different neuroscientists on ourbrain's connections to the
memories in our phones.
And so how they're measuringthe frequency that's going on
with our brains and thedifferent centers that get lit
(51:18):
up when we look back to pleasantmemories and experiences.
I think our culture is a littleover invested in the phone, but
there are so many positivethings that can come out of
documenting enjoyable momentsand really pleasurable
experiences.
Lisa Danylchuk (51:36):
Yeah, it's like so many things in life.
There are some substances orthings that we might use that
are really mostly harmful and wecan just cut out.
But for the most part, it'slike something like a phone.
We have a lot of studies andtalk about how screens can be
harmful or detrimental, butthere's so much amazingness too.
So if we're gonna be usingthem, if they're gonna be there,
(51:58):
can we maximize thatresourcing?
Because I love seeing thosememories.
And I've thought many times,well, I don't have a physical
photo book I used to print outand write things.
I don't do that anymore, but Isee things much more frequently
now.
Like I just got a memory from ayear ago of Isabella and we
went to this bike race in NevadaCity and just seeing it,
(52:18):
remembering it, feeling it againthis year, and it's really
beautiful.
So it's it is nice tohighlight, like you talked about
with food too.
Like, how can we bring in thenurturing elements of things?
I think in America we like tobe like, no, no, no, cut this
out, don't do that, don't dothat, right?
Like, but then what do I do?
And even with child rearing,yeah, let someone know that not
(52:43):
to do something, if especiallyif it's run into the street
while there's cars coming, butlike give them somewhere else to
go.
Like Isabella and I walked intoa store while Alex was on his
bike ride and it was all theselike crystal glass sculptures.
And I went, eyes only, babe,eyes only.
And the woman at the counterwas like, that's good.
I'm gonna use that.
(53:04):
Because you know, our ourinstinct is to say, Oh, it's
breakable.
Don't touch, don't touch, don'ttouch.
And then there's this like fearand oh yeah, I did something
bad or I did something wrong.
And and she listened, right?
She just looked around and thenstarted running back in and out
of the store 12 times.
So it worked out.
You I can't wait for you tomeet her, Tara.
(53:27):
You haven't met her yet.
I know.
No, just let the photos getthat babe in your arms.
Another parent said, I wish Icould keep every version of
them.
And I was like, Oh, that'sreally sweet.
Yeah, right.
It's like I'm glad I have thesememories to look back on in my
phone and like every day isdifferent, and it's really
(53:50):
beautiful.
Thank you, Tara, for comingtoday.
I just think I have 18,000ideas of different things we
could talk about, so maybe comeback.
Yeah, of course.
The Tara Panini show.
I will pick your brain and wewill organize it on different
(54:13):
topics and it will be fun.
It'll definitely be fun.
Awesome.
Thank you, Tara.
Thanks, Lisa.
Thank you so much forlistening.
Now, I'd really love to hearfrom you.
What resonated with you in thisepisode and what's on your mind
(54:33):
and in your heart as we bringthis conversation to a close?
Email me at info at how we canheal.com or share your answers
and what's been healing for youin the comments on Instagram, or
you'll find me at How We CanHeal.
Don't forget to go tohowwecanheal.com to sign up for
email updates as well.
You'll also find additionaltrainings, tons of free
(54:56):
resources, and the fulltranscript of each and every
show.
If you love the show, pleaseleave us a review on Apple,
Spotify, Audible, or whereveryou're listening to this podcast
right now.
If you're watching on YouTube,be sure to like and subscribe
and keep sharing the shows youlove the most with all your
friends.
Visit how we can heal.comforward slash podcast to share
(55:20):
your thoughts and ideas for theshow.
I always, always love hearingfrom you.
Before we wrap up for today, Iwant to be super clear that this
podcast isn't offeringprescriptions.
It's not advice, nor is it anykind of mental health treatment
or diagnosis.
Your decisions are in yourhands, and I encourage you to
(55:40):
consult with any healthcareprofessionals you may need to
support you through your uniquepath of healing.
In addition, everyone's opinionhere is their own, and opinions
can change.
Guests share their thoughts,not that of the host or
sponsors.
I'd like to thank our gueststoday and everyone who helped
(56:00):
support this podcast directlyand indirectly.
Alex, thanks for taking care ofthe babe and taking the fur
babies out while I record.
Last and never least, I'd liketo give a special shout out to
my big brother Matt, who passedaway in 2002.
He wrote this music and itmakes my heart so very happy to
share it with you here.
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