April 14, 2025 • 64 mins
Dr. Frank Corrigan joins us to share his groundbreaking approach to trauma healing called Deep Brain Reorienting (DBR). With his melodious Scottish accent and over 30 years of experience as a Consultant Psychiatrist in Scotland's National Health Service, Frank explains how his quest to help severely traumatized patients led to this innovative method that addresses trauma at its deepest neurobiological roots.
The magic of DBR lies in its focus on a critical moment most approaches miss – the milliseconds of "shock" that occur in the brainstem before emotions like fear, rage or shame ever emerge. Frank walks us through how traditional trauma therapies often overlook this crucial phase, potentially explaining why some people remain stuck despite years of treatment. Through fascinating explanations of brainstem structures like the periaqueductal gray and superior colliculi, he illustrates how DBR's sequence of processing works with our brain's natural healing mechanisms rather than against them.
What makes DBR truly revolutionary is its methodical, slow approach that begins with establishing "where self" – a neurological anchoring in present time and space – before identifying the subtle "orienting tension" that precedes shock. By attending to these early responses before emotions flood in, clients often experience processing that feels manageable rather than overwhelming. Frank shares moving clinical examples, including how DBR has helped people with traumatic bereavements that remained unresolved for decades despite trying numerous other approaches.
Ready to explore this transformative approach yourself? Whether you're a mental health professional interested in training or someone seeking healing from complex trauma, Frank's compassionate explanation offers hope that even the most deeply embedded trauma responses can be addressed when we understand the brain's natural healing sequence. Visit deepbrainreorienting.com to learn more about this exciting development in trauma therapy that's showing promising research results.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lisa Danylchuk (00:08):
Welcome back to the how we Can Heal podcast.
Today we welcome Dr.
Frank Corrigan to the show.
Throughout his career spanningover 30 years as a National
Health Service ConsultantPsychiatrist in Scotland, Frank
combined his extensive clinicalexperience with research on the
neurobiology of trauma and itsunderpinnings in major
psychiatric disorders.
(00:29):
His research broadly exploredthe intersection between
affective neuroscience and thescience of healing, culminating
in the development of deep brainreorienting, or DBR, which
we'll focus on today.
Today you'll get to hear aboutDBR directly from Frank in his
mellifluous Scottish accent.
You can always follow along onYouTube too, if you'd like some
(00:51):
visual support as well.
I'm honored to have him hereand I think you're really going
to enjoy this healingconversation, so please join me
in welcoming Dr Frank Corriganto the show.
I want to give a big shout outand extend a huge thank you to
the International Society forthe Study of Trauma and
Dissociation, the ISSTD, forsponsoring this episode.
(01:11):
If you've been listening to thispodcast for any amount of time,
you've heard me talk aboutISSTD and the incredible
researchers, clinicians andadvocates I've met during my
time as a member and a volunteerthere.
I even completed my DBR levelone training with Frank Corrigan
in person at the recent ISSTDconference in Boston, which we
talk about in today's episode.
The ISSTD has been delving intothe science and best practice
(01:35):
of treating trauma anddissociation for over 40 years
now, and they have a richcatalog of educational offerings
for both professionals andnon-professionals on their
website that's cfasisst-dorg.
If you're a mental healthprofessional, I highly recommend
(01:56):
you consider becoming a memberof ISSTD.
I'd love to see you during thelive educational offerings and
at the annual conference inPortland, Oregon, in March of
2026.
Visit ISST-Dorg to learn more.
(02:16):
Awesome, Frank Corrigan, welcometo the how we Can Heal podcast.
I'm so excited to have you hereand to talk about you and your
journey with DBR.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (02:26):
Thank you for inviting me.
I'm honored and pleased to behere.
Lisa Danylchuk (02:30):
Yes! So for those who haven't listened to
other episodes where we talkabout DBR, DBR stands for Deep
Brain Reorienting and it'ssomething that you developed,
and I'm curious just what ledyou to discover and create DBR.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (02:50):
It's been an evolution of a process rather
than a sudden insight.
I think I've trained in manydifferent trauma therapy
modalities over the years andI've always been looking for
something that was effective forthe most seriously traumatized
(03:11):
people without beingoverwhelming.
And a lot of the difficulty Ihad with other modalities is
that while they were veryeffective for many conditions,
they were often overwhelming forthose who were really severely
(03:38):
traumatized.
So I've been working on a wayof understanding why that
overwhelm occurred and lookingto see if there were ways of
preparing the processing, thehealing process, in a way that
flowed with less risk ofoverwhelm.
Lisa Danylchuk (03:52):
Yeah, that's such an important point and I
feel like I've talked about thatwith a lot of people on the
show.
I remember having aconversation with Kathy Steele,
who you know, and you know, likefinding that edge in clinical
treatment of like what's justenough, where we're not
overwhelming but we're not inavoidance or feeling stuck right
, like how do we find that edgewhere there's progress but not
(04:14):
so much quote progress that it'sactually a backslide right, not
so much overwhelm or digginginto something that's
traumatizing so that it'sre-traumatizing.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (04:24):
Yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk (04:25):
So it's definitely a theme in the field,
especially the more complextrauma we're working with.
I'm curious too, just tobackstep, how did you get
interested in treatingpsychological trauma?
Dr. Frank Corrigan (04:52):
Oh, being in psychiatry from 1977 onwards
and being preoccupied often withthose who were most seriously
at risk of suicide, andobserving that those who were
not psychotic, who were activelysuicidal, were usually those
who had a severe trauma history,usually those who had a severe
trauma history.
Lisa Danylchuk (05:49):
Yeah, and you're talking about those two ends of
the spectrum right away,between being overwhelmed and
having too much come up too fastand being almost in avoidance.
With PTSD, Avoidance is one ofthe key indicators or symptoms.
So are we sort of colludingwith that avoidance and just
tiptoeing and not saying thewords or not trying to evoke any
(06:10):
emotion or fear or memory, orare we holding space for that
and in a careful way, in askillful way, helping people to
process it?
And I think that's what's socool.
I mean I just, you know, I justdid my level one DBR training
in Boston with you and so I'mreally excited about this
modality as an option for for adifferent point of entry.
(06:34):
So you know, some folkslistening may have done DBR
training.
They may have read your bookalready.
Some folks, I'm sure, haven't.
So how would you explain DBR inthe most simplest terms to
someone who's just hearing aboutit for the first time?
Dr. Frank Corrigan (06:49):
I think the thing that's emerged over the
years of doing DBR is theimportance of shock.
And in DBR we're defining shockas a brainstem and upper brain
response that occurs beforethere's any activation of the
(07:10):
peripheral nervous system.
So during shock people may haveexperiences of cold shivers,
shudders, emptying, electriccharges, pressure in the head,
pressure behind the eyes.
There's all sorts of sensationsthat go with this shock, but
(07:34):
there isn't a change immediatelyin the peripheral autonomic
nervous system.
And because there's been such afocus on the autonomic nervous
system, I think that's why shockhasn't been recognized in this
way.
And it's become apparentthrough studying the brainstem
(07:59):
neuroanatomy and studying thesequence of responses in the
brainstem to a traumaticstimulus.
And we've seen that there's thepossibility of this shock
response in the brain beforethere's any intense emotion,
(08:22):
before there's any change in theperipheral autonomic nervous
system.
Lisa Danylchuk (08:28):
Right.
So before there's what we'refocusing so much on – fight,
flight, freeze, collapse, all ofthat – you're honing in on the
moment before that, right beforethose signals get transmitted
through the rest of the brain,throughout the body, before
we're in this, you know, hyperaroused or hypo aroused state,
(08:48):
there's that moment of shock.
So you're really defining theshock as those early I'm
imagining seconds, right at the,at the very.
.
.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (08:56):
Probably milliseconds.
You know, it's probably reallyfast, and I think that's why
it's so easily missed.
Lisa Danylchuk (09:03):
Yes.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (09:04):
Yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk (09:04):
Because there's so much after those few
milliseconds too right, all theflooding of what we're just
talking about endorphins oradrenaline, or trying to get to
safety or trying to work throughwhatever the the trauma or the
struggle is like.
It's easy to focus on thosebecause those can be louder
right?
Dr. Frank Corrigan (09:23):
Yeah, they take the attention immediately.
If you're hit by the suddenterror, you're not going to be
thinking about the fleetingsensations that preceded that.
You're going to be utterlypreoccupied with the terror.
Lisa Danylchuk (09:44):
And so with shock you just mentioned
sensations in the back of thehead or the eyes or the forehead
.
I'm wondering how you made thatconnection.
Is that specific toneuroanatomy or is that
something you observedclinically, that people were
having these shock responsesthrough, fluttering muscles
around the eyes or having a lotof sensation in the brainstem
area?
Dr. Frank Corrigan (10:07):
The other key thing in DPR is the
orienting tension and that comesfrom the brainstem as a
response to a stimulus beforethere's any shock or before
there's any emotional response.
And what we've found, greatlyto my surprise I have to say, is
(10:32):
that if we can identify theorienting tension that comes
before the shock, comes beforethe emotions, we've got an
anchor in the subsequentprocessing that greatly reduces
the risk of overwhelm.
So if we get our orientingtension at the beginning and
(10:56):
then slow everything down toseparate out the shock from the
emotions, we're then usuallyinto a process in a way that's
manageable, that's notoverwhelming.
So our first task in a DPRsession is to find the orienting
(11:17):
tension.
The second is to look for theshock.
Lisa Danylchuk (11:21):
So you find - and I know just from the
training that even before thatlike getting connected to what
you would call whereself -where the body is now, where our
brain is in the moment.
For a long time I'veunderstood that as grounding and
orienting, but I think you comeat it from a bit of a different
angle.
So again, backing up, is thereanything you want to say about
(11:43):
the importance of that firstpreparatory step before finding
orienting tension?
Dr. Frank Corrigan (11:50):
This has proved to be another important
feature of DBR, Again rather tomy surprise.
It was based on the idea thatthe brainstem, the superior
colliculus in the brainstem, isa focal point for taking in
(12:10):
information, for taking inimmediate stimuli that may, of
course, be threatening, and thenorganizing an immediate
response to them.
So the superior colliculi needto know where the body is, and
(12:31):
the information about where thebody is comes from systems in
the brain that separate out theinformation about where the body
is from what we areencountering.
So we have tried to localizeour self in a way that takes in
(12:54):
brain systems for where the bodyis here now, with its mapping
of the surrounding spaceaccording to the direction that
we're facing, our awareness ofgravity and so on.
Lisa Danylchuk (13:12):
And that in my mind – from all the other
trainings I've done, and I knowyou work with people who've done
so many different trainings –is more about orienting to the
present moment and the presentspace and the literal "where is
my body?
And connecting with, as you'resaying, the superior colliculi.
Through that connection and Iknow folks do I'm also in the
(13:32):
yoga world and there's all kindsof ways we can start a session
by grounding or orienting.
We can find something to lookat, we can touch, you know, feel
the touch of the chair or thefloor, all these different
things.
But some of those go in thedirection of which I think is
risky, with trauma of like closeyour eyes, go inside, let's
(13:52):
drop in, but where self isdifferent, right, rather than
being like a dropping in andgetting really focused
internally like a hypnotic sortof induction, it's more about
really connecting with gravity,and I know from doing the
training even where's theposition of your body in the
room.
?
Where are you hearing soundsfrom?
Where is your position in thehotel that you're in or the room
(14:15):
that you're in?
It's so much more specific ofan orientation practice than
I've had before, and Iappreciate the name too, like
the where self.
It's not about doing something,it's really about locating.
About your brain and your bodylocating itself here and now.
Is that fair?
Is that a fair description?
Dr. Frank Corrigan (14:35):
Absolutely, that's a g ood description.
Lisa Danylchuk (15:04):
And then once someone has that and their body,
their brain knows where theyare, is oriented to that, is
connected to a sense of where,then you would look for the
orienting tension and then youwould proceed once that's clear
with the DVR process.
So that's kind of the sequenceof things.
Um, I'm wondering if you wantto say anything about how shock
comes up and through the body.
You've done I don't even knowwhat a fair estimate is probably
thousands, tens of thousands ofsessions of this at this point.
It's evolved over time.
What do you notice about howshock emerges when we are paying
(15:25):
attention to that orientingtension and to those
milliseconds in response to thestimulus of the trauma?
Dr. Frank Corrigan (15:34):
If I may just say a little bit more about
where self before I come tothat
The study in Canada has reallyshown that the ability to locate
where self is what allows aperson to go on to do DBR
processing.
If somebody can't locate whereself, then they're not yet ready
(15:59):
to do DBR.
So it's proved a reallyimportant threshold for crossing
before doing the traumaprocessing with DBR.
So we locate where self, wepresent the activating stimulus,
we look for the orientingtension in the forehead, the
(16:24):
muscles around the eyes or themuscles at the base of the skull
, and then we have to slow down.
This is where it's reallydifficult for everybody at the
start, because we're slowingdown to try to pick up these
sensations that have beenfleeting, that have happened
(16:46):
probably in milliseconds.
So we're having to slow itright down and the therapist has
to be directive here to lookfor the shock and to ask is
there any jolt or judder throughyour body?
Is there any pressure behindthe eyes, for example?
So if the sensations aren'tvolunteered, so we slow down,
(17:12):
give it space, and everyindividual's shock sensations
are different.
So every time I do a menu ofshock sensations it's incomplete
because there's always otherpossibilities that arise and we
have to be open to whatever itis in a particular person.
Lisa Danylchuk (17:38):
Yeah, so honing in and slowing down.
I saw there was anothertraining, I think it's someone
you've worked with who doesAlexander technique I'm
forgetting the name at themoment, but he was talking about
, you know, people wanting to gofrom A to C or A to Z in a
session, and sometimes thesession is just staying with A
(17:59):
or maybe going from A to B.
So it's really about honing inand slowing down, as you're
mentioning, and picking up onthese subtleties that can get
overlooked but that I thinkwarrant space, right.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (18:17):
Yeah, this is the crucial thing with shock
when we identify it, we need tosit with it.
We don't try to do anythingwith it, so we would usually say
to the person we're workingwith these sensations that
you're describing to me arecoming from the shock.
(18:37):
We'll get to the fear or rageor grief or shame or whatever
the emotions are when the timeis right.
If possible, can you stay withthese shock sensations?
Just let us be with them, and Ithink I don't know, but I think
(19:00):
there's probably somethingimportant about being able to
describe the shock sensations toanother and be able to sit with
them, with another alsoattending to them, and all being
well that shock energy thendissipates, and the pressure in
(19:30):
the head reduces, or the coldshiver down the spine disappears
, or the weakness in the arms,to use an example from early
attachment shock, the weaknessin the arms clears and the power
comes back into the arms.
(19:50):
So we need to give the shock asmuch space and time as it needs
for the energy of it todissipate and clear.
Lisa Danylchuk (19:56):
So you've described shock in terms of
where it can show up, someexamples in terms of pressure in
the head or at the base of theskull or the eyes, jaw.
There's a lot of it focusedhigher up in the body.
You also mentioned the armsright now and saying that
there's no right or wrong.
We want to stay open to eachperson's body and response.
(20:19):
We've also described the shockin terms of time.
This is a very narrowmillisecond or milliseconds that
we're focusing on after thetrauma is, at the very beginning
of the trauma essentially, orwhen we first become aware of it
at a deep brain level.
Is there anything else thatfeels important about shock?
I know questions come up aroundthis because we're so focused
(20:42):
on the latter parts ofpost-traumatic stress and
complex trauma and how they showup relationally in all of this.
Is there anything else that youfeel like is important to
communicate about w hat shock is, what that means?
Dr. Frank Corrigan (20:54):
Yeah, when I first identified it it was to
do with an attachment rupture.
So it was attachment shock thatI focused on initially and
looked for the immediate impactof a rejection or a humiliation
(21:15):
or an abandonment or somethingof that sort that would, coming
out of the blue, potentially bequite shocking.
So I initially focused on theattachment shock and then got as
much of that processed aspossible before picking up the
pain of the abandonment orrejection and then the emotions
(21:41):
that come in response to thatpain.
So we followed a sequence fromthe stimulus through the
orienting tension, to the shock,to the pain, to the emotions.
And if we'd slowed that downenough then by the time we got
(22:02):
to the emotions they weren'toverwhelming as a rule you know.
They could process naturallybecause you'd taken the
amplifier out of the system.
The shock energy was theamplifier and when that was gone
then the the affects, theemotions, process neatly.
(22:24):
So that was the attachmentshock.
But then I find, similarly forinterpersonal shocks or natural
disaster shocks, that we'vefollowed the same principles get
the orienting tension and thenlook for the shock.
Lisa Danylchuk (22:45):
Mm-hmm yeah there's so many places I feel
like I can go with this, so I'mtrying to slow myself down
because I'm like we could gohere, we could go there.
I one question I have orcomment too is, in popularized
trauma awareness, maybe not somuch in people whose expertise
(23:06):
and professional life is devotedto trauma, but there's a lot of
talk of the amygdala and theprefrontal cortex.
We want to go to a very simpletriune brain model.
There's three parts, and thisis all it does.
So your model and deep brainreorienting aren't focused on
the amygdala, right?
This is more the deep brain andyou've talked about and I love
(23:32):
the periaqueductal gray and thesuperior colliculi – I just love
saying them.
Honestly, I'm not aneuroscientist and I did do some
fMRI studies for a while ingraduate school, but I'm
interested how you got connectedto these areas of the brain,
what turned you on to it, and ifyou can just say a little bit
to folks listening about whythose areas – and maybe others
(23:55):
if you'd like – are importantwhen we're focusing on this
shock, this early shock.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (24:03):
Yeah, I was heavily influenced by the work
of Jaak Panksepp.
So you know, with treatingtrauma and I was seeing fear and
rage and grief and panic andthen I go to the literature to
find out about them and they'reall coming from the
periaqueductal grey (PAG) in thehypothalamus, not the amygdala.
(24:26):
So I focused in on theperiaqueductal grey and when I
was more focused on emotionalresponses I tended to look for
what I thought was activity inthe PAG during the processing.
(24:46):
But one of the criticalexperiences for me was seeing
that the affects, the emotions,could be completely cleared and
yet there was still anactivation there that would
cause insomnia or rumination orhypervigilance to threat.
(25:19):
So when I looked for thepotential source of that shock,
I came up with the locuscoeruleus in the pons, which
seemed to me to be the likelystructure for mediating the
impact of shocking experiencesin those milliseconds after
they're registered, and thenlater, with reading a book by
(25:39):
Donald Pfaff, went deeper intothe brainstem and hypothesized
that the giant cell nucleus inthe medulla oblongata is also
significant in shock.
So I see these structures asactivating the upper brain,
(26:00):
including the amygdala and thehippocampus, so you can get
emotional memories formed ifyou've got enough activation of
shock plus PAG, plushypothalamus, all activation
feeding into the amygdala, thehippocampus.
Then you can get emotionalmemories for stimulus and for
(26:26):
context.
You can get those formed.
But the key thing for me wasthat there had been a focus on
the learning, without referenceto where the activation of the
learning came from.
So that's why I thought when weget to the amygdala we've
(26:50):
already gone too high up in thebrain.
Lisa Danylchuk (26:59):
So that's again where the slowing down and
backing up before it gets tothat point, before we're
inundated with emotion or terror, rage, shame, grief, all of
that really backing it up.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (27:10):
Yeah, yeah.
And we know, I think, fromstudies of fear learning that
extinction models work with arelearning from the prefrontal
cortex to the amygdala and thatcan take a long time and it
doesn't necessarily generalisevery well and we argue that
(27:34):
that's because you've still gota sensitization at the brainstem
level, so you've got asensitivity to fear, for example
with specific stimuli.
And unless we get to that level, we're only doing a top-down
regulating, we're not doing aclearing from the bottom up.
Lisa Danylchuk (27:58):
Yes, that just tees up the next question, which
is what might people be missingif they're not addressing shock
or they're not addressing whathappens in the deep brain?
Dr. Frank Corrigan (28:10):
If I can give an example, one of the
things that I've noticed is withtraumatic bereavement, that
people may have suffered atraumatic bereavement and then
they've worked on it for years,decades even, and it's not
cleared.
And they've used all theavailable trauma therapies to
(28:32):
get to it and it's not cleared.
And when I've seen people withtraumatic bereavements that have
persisted in their clinicaleffects, I've found that it's
because the shock in the firstmoment of realising when the
(28:53):
body is hit by what has happened, when the brainstem is hit long
, long, many milliseconds beforethe cortex catches up, that's
the piece that we need to get tobe with, that's the shock we
need to identify and be with.
And if we can be with that,then the amplification of the
(29:20):
emotions disappears and peoplethen can process their emotional
responses in a more natural way.
Lisa Danylchuk (29:36):
But have you found like a rhythm or some sort
of predictability at all withintegration time for folks in
between sessions or afterattending to this early shock,
maybe for the first time?
Dr. Frank Corrigan (29:53):
It's hard to say.
The study in Canada is onlyeight sessions of DBR and that
is not what we would usually doin routine clinical practice.
I mean most people, especiallywith severe, complex trauma
(30:14):
disorders, would need many, manymore sessions than that.
But it is, I think,constructive that even eight
sessions is showing asignificant improvement in the
PTSD score and other scores thatare used in the study.
And also Ruth Lanius hasobserved from the imaging data
(30:44):
that are emerging that there arechanges in the functional
connectivity in the brain aftereven the eight sessions.
So this is really impressive.
I mean for me it's veryexciting because it's bearing
out the theory on which theclinical model is based.
So it's great to have thatvalidation.
(31:06):
But I think in time, as thedata get analyzed and published,
it'll really add to thisawareness that we've got to get
to the shock, to reduce theshock impact on the upper brain
structures if we want to clearthe trauma impact at the deepest
(31:30):
level possible.
Lisa Danylchuk (31:31):
Yes, that's really exciting.
Can you say what the functionalconnectivity is, or is it too
soon?
Dr. Frank Corrigan (31:38):
It's probably too soon.
Lisa Danylchuk (31:40):
Leave us on the edge of our seats.
Well, we did have Ruth Laniustalk about this study in the
last season of this podcast, andthat was episode one in the
last season and it's been a verypopular one.
So I think it is interestingjust to see the research that's
coming out, and eight sessionsis, in the context of things,
not a lot of treatment, so it'sexciting to see that, and it's
(32:05):
exciting to see that it was done, because of the COVID-19
pandemic, largely online, and so, even though there is this nth
element of being together thatcan be powerful, can be
threatening, depending on theperson, there's something about
this technique that translatesum that in terms of teletherapy
and telehealth as well.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (32:24):
I think it's nice that we have the evidence
from study of online DBR,because and that would usually
be more of a second line study,I think so it's nice, especially
when there was restrictedcommunication during the
(32:45):
pandemic, to have these resultscoming from an online study.
Lisa Danylchuk (32:50):
Yeah, now I can imagine some people might be
listening.
This might be the first timethey've heard of DBR.
They've been in a lot of traumatherapy or maybe a friend or
family member has, and they'reexcited, right listening, and,
saying, I want to jump in and Iwant to do it.
What – well I guess the firstquestion is kind of what would
you say to folks who areinterested in receiving
(33:10):
treatment for themselves in DBRand what are maybe some
preparatory things to thinkabout or to look for if they're
looking for support in this way?
Dr. Frank Corrigan (33:21):
Yeah, and I'm aware that the availability
of DBR is not yet widespread andwe need to do more trainings.
We need to have more trainersand we're working on that
currently.
It's just evolved so fast.
The demand has evolved so fast,entirely by word of mouth.
(33:46):
Yeah, especially in the earlydays, people are saying this
works, learn more about it.
Lisa Danylchuk (33:58):
Yeah, and what's the simplest way you would
describe what happens in a DBRsession or what people could
expect if, even if theirtherapist happens to be trained
in it and they're wanting toshift and try something new?
It's a different experience,right.
It's different than all theother modalities.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (34:19):
One of the differences, I think, is that
often the processing is insilence.
So at the beginning of thesession the therapist is really
active.
What do you want to work ontoday?
Let me help you define theactivating stimulus in as brief
(34:39):
a way as possible.
Let's define that.
Now we'll go to where selfpresent the activating stimulus,
get the orienting tension, lookfor the shock, stay with the
shock, if possible until theenergy of it dissipates.
Then the affect comes in andthere may be a move between
(35:04):
affect and shock.
But a lot of the time, oncewe've identified and helped the
person identify that sequencefrom the orienting tension to
the shock, to the affect we'rethen letting it process because
(35:24):
it's the person's brain thatknows what's required.
It's not the therapist thatknows what's required.
So the therapist has to be ableto often sit in silence and be
attentive without sayinganything.
And that's difficult for manytherapists to do that because
(35:48):
they feel they should be doingsomething.
And actually a lot of the time,once we've got it set up, we
stay attentive, we stay focused,but often we're not saying
anything.
We're letting that process flowand for many people that's
(36:11):
quite refreshing to come to atalking therapy session and not
have to talk about your trauma.
They may not even need to tellmuch about it to the therapist.
They're able to highlight apiece of it and then go into
processing and during thatprocessing other memories may
(36:39):
come up, because it may be thatthis sequence of shock into pain
in to affect underlies manydifferent traumatic experiences
in the person's life.
So rather than having to pickthose off one by one, we get the
sequence and we stay with itand allow the brain to process
(37:03):
in the way that it needs to, andthe therapist is attentive and
non-directive during that partof the session.
Lisa Danylchuk (37:16):
Yeah, two things stand out to me from that.
One is the attentiveness of thetherapist and the temptation
for therapists to feel like Ihave to be doing something, when
being attentive is a verypowerful thing to quote do or
not do right, just being withsomeone and I've seen you offer
demonstrations and I'veparticipated in the practicum
(37:38):
and you know we can feel whensomeone's with us and when
they're not right you can kindof sense if someone's starting
to get distracted or go away andthere's something really
powerful.
It seems it'll be interestingin further studies too of just
that presence and that sense ofI'm here with you, right, and
that's something I've heardpeople say in these sessions of
(38:00):
just I'm here, you know, andmaybe a little check-in, and if
the person's still movingthrough something or processing,
we just allow it and reallygive space for it.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (38:14):
Yeah, yeah, and it can take a while for us
as therapists to get it rightbecause different people require
different support during theprocessing.
Some may like us to just checkin every now and again.
You know, are you doing okaywith this?
They can know to not come outof process, because we don't
want to ask any question thatwould take the person out of
(38:38):
their intrinsic process and upto the higher thinking level of
the brain.
We want to keep it at thisdeeper level yeah, yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk (38:48):
And the other point that came to me as you're
talking is just the fact thatsilence can be overwhelming,
like even in yoga or meditation,like close your eyes, go inside
.
Like that's a very looseinstruction for someone who has
a lot of trauma and so silencecan be challenging for folks but
when we're really focused onthis short small window of time
and there is a very strongcontainer with deep brain
(39:17):
reorienting of what we're doing,how we're focusing, and I know,
even for myself as aparticipant, as a client, I can
go right up to storytelling andemotion really quick, I'm doing
like more of an EMDR thing in mybrain and and my, my
practitioner is like "can wecome back to what you're you
know, can we come back?
" And that's really helpful.
(39:39):
So, it's an attentiveness andit's also not just going along
for the ride.
There's, there's some of that,but there's also some of like
are we really addressing thething we're trying to address
right now?
And that can be a big challenge.
But it's also quite clear, oncethere's an emotion coming up
that's big or that's coming inat all, we know, okay, we're
(40:01):
moving to a different part ofthe brain.
Let's back up, let's reorient,if you will.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (40:08):
But if the shock is cleared, we would often
stay with the emotion becausewe would often want to validate
that, to use my traumaticbereavement example.
Once the shock is cleared, thenthe sadness comes in in a way
that it's possible for theperson to process.
So naturally, we're going togive space for that too.
(40:33):
And again, as we're sittingwith that, it's the therapist
being human, being presentrather than doing something you
know, applying a technique orparticular words that you know
should be said every now andagain .
Lisa Danylchuk (40:58):
And anytime there's a model and there's
training, we can, as therapists,like what's the right way and
what's the right thing to say,and I love and appreciate coming
back to the humanness of it andthere's often intuitive signals
we're picking up on or sensesthat we're coming to, especially
if it's a long-term client thatwe know very well, that can be
powerful information forprocessing or for the work.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (41:24):
Yeah, if it's people we know very well,
then we're able to adjust ourinput to an optimal level.
But of course it can changeover time too, depending on
whether the person is working onsomething from very early in
life, when perhaps there was notan attuned presence, or when a
(41:47):
silence was threatening orsuggestive of aggression coming
in.
So we have to adjust how muchinput we have according to what
the person needs in relation towhat they're processing.
Lisa Danylchuk (42:05):
Yeah, Can you speak to how – you mentioned
attachment earlier and evenfinding the orienting tension
from that place – can you speakto how attachment shows up in
this work?
Dr. Frank Corrigan (42:37):
I argue that the basic connection to another
comes from a sensory orientingto the other and then usually
from an affective r esponse tothat, so that before there's any
attachment there's this sensoryaffective connection at the
midbrain level.
And if we don't have that or ifthere's a disruption of that,
(42:57):
we can also have the conflict inrelation to the other at that
level.
So the infant may, for example,want to reach out and then see
that mother's face is completelystill and get blocked in the
movement of reaching out withshock and then with the pain of
(43:21):
what is experienced as rejection.
So there's then a conflict atthe collicular level between
reaching out and pulling back.
And when we get the orientingtension in relation to that
conflict and we would usuallyuse a present day trigger as a
(43:43):
way in then we get the orientingtension.
We can explore, or what arisesrather is that conflict between
reaching and recoiling, forexample, and then the shock and
(44:05):
the pain that go with that, andso we can get into these
conflicts that have arisen evenfrom very early in life, we can
get into the brainstemmanifestations of them, I
hypothesize by using apresent-day trigger of – It
might be a relatively smallstimulus in comparison with many
(44:29):
others, but just some moment inan interaction that's felt
rejecting or abandoning.
We can use that as a way intoan underlying conflict.
Lisa Danylchuk (44:42):
Another thing you talk about is this core
aloneness pain.
Is that something that you findspecific to attachment work or
is that something you find inmost or all clients comes up?
Dr. Frank Corrigan (44:57):
I tend to go with the idea that attachment
to others is the mostfundamental mammalian need and
so if that need is not met, thenthe experience, the internal
experience, is likely to bepainful and, depending on the
(45:21):
circumstances, there can be ahuge variety of responses to
that pain which I call, as yousay, core aloneness pain, and
often even with severe traumahistory, there are moments
(45:42):
within the traumas when thealoneness is the most painful
aspect of it.
Lisa Danylchuk (46:15):
So I'm assuming, then that focusing on the
initial shock of that moment ofaloneness pain whether you're
starting with a you knownon-response to a text message
or you're ending up at thatreaching and leaning back
conflict of the infant, like youwere describing, that clearing
those really initial deep brainresponses to, to those moments
will help.
Because when I say somethinglike core aloneness pain, I'm
like whoa, that's big, right,that's big.
(46:36):
So, in order to get there, fromthis perspective, it's
important to focus on theinitial shock that then preceded
that deep pain in order for itto be less overwhelming.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (46:53):
Yes, yeah, I think that the shock usually
precedes the pain, which in turn, precedes the emotional
responses to that pain.
So that's what we're lookingfor in relation to those
aversive attachment experiencesthe shock, the pain then the
(47:14):
emotions.
Lisa Danylchuk (47:18):
Another important thing here and I know
we're talking level two, levelthree stuff in terms of how you
train mental healthprofessionals in deep brain
reorienting but dissociation issomething that I've worked with
for a long time and I thinkpeople are becoming more aware
of in the clinical world andvaluing as an adaptive response.
Can you speak to how DBRaddresses dissociation or even
(47:41):
dissociative identity?
Dr. Frank Corrigan (47:44):
Yeah, and I'm sure it's an oversimplified
model in the eyes of many butit's clinically useful.
So what we use is a model inwhich we are seeing dissociation
as a response to that pain ofaloneness, that if it starts
(48:07):
very early in life then there'sa capacity at the mid-brain
level to turn away from it.
And this is not happening to me.
This is not my pain.
So the primary dissociationfrom the pain would be that kind
of involuntary turning awayfrom it.
(48:28):
And of course, if the pain hasbeen so intense and often if it
arises from very early life,it's described as unbearable and
unending.
So those two words often areused around that core pain.
It just feels unbearable andit's never going to end.
(48:50):
So if the brain has found thattoo much to turn to and has
turned away, then if we'returning back towards it, we have
to do it very carefully andjust take our time with it.
But as we do it carefully andslowly, then it gives that
(49:19):
underlying pain a chance toclear and resolve.
We also use the idea ofneurochemical dissociation for
the cannabinoids when emotionsare so intense that they need to
be capped by the midbrains, sothe cannabinoids come in and cut
(49:40):
them off at a high level butprevent them getting too high
and then endogenous opioidscoming in and shutting down and
making sleepy and drowsy anddropping the heart rate and the
blood pressure and so on.
So we've got that neurochemicaldissociation.
(50:02):
We also describe what I callintracortical dissociation as
the result of shock activatingthe cortex in a chaotic way, so
that then the cortex loses thecoherent sense of a self in
(50:24):
relation to the world and inrelation to others.
So I see that intracorticaldissociation as linked to
experiences chronically often ofderealization and
depersonalization.
Lisa Danylchuk (50:43):
Yeah.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (50:44):
And then finally the structural
dissociation, where we haveparts of self split off and I
see those as arising fromcircuitry from the cortex
through the basal gangliastriatum and thalamus and back
(51:06):
to cortex.
So those circuits I think haveseparated off from the brainstem
activations that probably gaverise to them.
And when we're working withstructurally dissociated states
we're trying to keep below thelevel of those parts of the self
(51:27):
and work with the underlyingshock and pain and emotion.
Lisa Danylchuk (51:34):
Yeah, I'd imagine that could be complex if
different parts are showing upin session of, needing a sense
of collaboration amongst partsbefore you go to the deep brain.
I mean, that's maybe a moreadvanced clinical question here.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (51:50):
Yeah, but usually I would explain it on
the basis that we're not workingspecifically with the parts.
We're trying to help with aclearing of an underlying shock
and pain that probably affectsall parts of the system.
So we present the argumentwe're not working with specific
(52:15):
parts, we're trying to getunderneath to something that
will help every part of thesystem feel better.
Of course that as you know willsometimes provoke controversy
within the brain, but we do whatwe can to work around that and
(52:35):
keep working at the deeper level, below the level of the of the
parts of self,
Lisa Danylchuk (52:42):
And with all of that, starting with where self,
and that as the foundation right.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (52:47):
Absolutely yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
We never go into DPR withoutstarting with and, as I said at
the beginning, it's a goodguide to whether someone is
ready for DPR processing or not.
Lisa Danylchuk (53:05):
Yeah, there's so many questions in terms of
dissociation, but I'll justenroll in level three for that.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (53:11):
Right, okay.
Lisa Danylchuk (53:12):
Level two is attachment focus.
Level three is dissociativefocus.
Okay, yeah.
I know our training
(53:34):
Yeah, and I know this is anoversimplified model, but, as I
say, it works clinically, sothat's why I think it's worth
pursuing.
What's the leading edge for you now?
What are you interested in?
I know you're working to get upto speed and get people trained
, and that's plenty, but I'mcurious if there's just
questions you're wanting topursue in terms of research or
(53:54):
ideas, thoughts you have righton on the edge of this as it's
growing.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (54:13):
Even if it's not got the 7 Tesla
neuroimaging, just to test outthe clinical application in
another centre would be great.
So there's a few peopleinterested and I'm hoping one of
them will get the funding to gowith this in time, because that
(54:34):
would really.
If we got support from a secondstudy, it would help to change
national guidelines on treatingPTSD, for example, and I think
on treating dissociativedisorders, given the proportion
of participants in the study whoalso had a comorbid
(54:57):
dissociative disorders.
So it could, once that'spublished, I think it could help
to change available treatmentsfor complex PTSD and
dissociative disorders.
Lisa Danylchuk (55:14):
Yeah, and is there a population you feel like
DBR is best for in terms ofclients?
Dr. Frank Corrigan (55:24):
Yeah, yeah, it's fairly difficult to
(55:52):
identify inclusion and exclusioncriteria, particularly based on
diagnoses which are often notreally very precise.
So I tend to think that ifsomebody has a clinical disorder
that's based in traumaticexperience or traumatic
experiences, it's worth thinkingabout
And because we can do itgradually just by ourselves.
Make sure that's possible.
Can we get an orienting tension?
Do you feel able to go on intothe shock of this relatively
minor present day trigger thatwe select so we can go into it
(56:16):
carefully and slowly and withfull collaboration of the client
or patient, and that then letsus see, I think, whether we can
or can't do DPR with that person.
Lisa Danylchuk (56:31):
Yeah, and so the capacity to access where self
is one thing I'd imagine.
Just in terms of age, I don'tknow if there's been a lot.
I think there's been some workwith kids too, right with
younger people, so there'sobviously maybe like a language
threshold at least, where youngpeople would need to understand
the process and be able to goalong with it.
(56:52):
Is there anything else thatshows up in terms of exclusion
or limitation or caution?
Dr. Frank Corrigan (57:03):
Nothing specific.
I think there are conditionslike traumatic brain injuries,
for example.
I think there are conditionslike traumatic brain injuries,
for example, where it may bethat the processing capacity has
been altered and we would needto go carefully just to make
sure there's enough processingcapacity.
People have asked aboutpsychosis.
(57:25):
Don't have enough informationon that just now.
I think if a psychosis werewell regulated by medication, it
may be possible to do usefulwork on any trauma history that
there is, and whether it wouldimpact on the severity or the
(57:48):
intensity or the frequency ofepisodes of psychosis.
I don't know.
It needs a study.
If I may say, though, whenyou're asking about further
developments, the thing that Ithink really needs studied, as
well as another study ofstraight DBR and complex PTSD,
(58:12):
the thing that we really need isa study of DBR in acute
situations like war zones and soon, to see if processing the
shock of a very recent event,like one's house being shelled
the day before or something likethat, if processing the shock
(58:32):
of that, reduces the long-termrisk of PTSD.
I think that's a hugelyimportant question, so maybe
somebody listening will have theability to follow that one up.
Lisa Danylchuk (58:47):
Yes, we can always ask, we can always hope.
So if people want to gettrained, where would you send
folks?
Would it just bedeepbrainreorienting.
com?
Dr. Frank Corrigan (58:59):
Yeah, it's good if they go there register
interest there.
Lisa Danylchuk (59:04):
Okay, and most of the trainings are being done
online these days.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (59:07):
Yes, Most of them are done online.
Lisa Danylchuk (59:10):
Yeah, okay great and your book, together with
Hannah Young, Jessica ChristieSands, Deep Brain Reorienting:
Understanding the neuroscienceof trauma, attachment wounding
and deep brain reorientingpsychotherapy.
That's available throughRoutledge, pretty much anywhere
people get books online.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (59:31):
Yeah, that was recently published.
That's good to have it outthere.
Lisa Danylchuk (59:35):
Yes, yeah, that's a great project.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (59:50):
No, I think.
.
.
.
Lisa Danylchuk (59:51):
That's plenty!
Dr. Frank Corrigan (59:53):
I think there's a lot going on and
there's a lot of potential formore developments here.
So I hope I've outlined enoughto to give people an idea of
what's involved here
Lisa Danylchuk (01:00:00):
And if people want to connect with you, it's
deepbrainreorienting.
com.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (01:00:04):
Yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk (01:00:06):
Wonderful, I usually ask people at the end of
these interviews what bringsyou hope, but I feel like your
work is just bringing plenty ofhope.
I don't know if there'sanything you want to add, but
when we find things that areworking, I think that's
inherently energizing andinstilling of hope.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (01:00:22):
I think that's a huge factor in this,
because when somebody has a verycomplex history of serious
trauma, even a small shiftwithin a session can give hope,
and so repeated sessions, evenwith small shifts, are giving
hope for eventual change.
(01:00:44):
That's really experienced as achange in capacity for a sense
of well-being, for happiness,for joy in life.
So I think seeing the resultsof the sessions, hearing from
people who've told me differentparts of the world what a
(01:01:05):
difference it's made, that giveshope for continuing um ways of
approaching trauma and andtaking healing from the adverse
effects of it.
Lisa Danylchuk (01:01:36):
At the end of our in-person training in Boston
, there was just this feeling inthe room and everyone was.
You know, it was a veryregulated feeling and sometimes,
with trauma processing, wedon't always wrap up in that
place.
Sometimes there's a sense of,oh, I got to sleep on this or oh
, I really got to go back totherapy with that, and there was
very much a sense of connectionand appreciation and the things
(01:01:56):
I think most of us want in life, right, Just to feel connected
to each other, regulated witheach other.
I think we can all use more ofthat these days.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (01:02:04):
Yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk (01:02:06):
Well, I want to thank you for your work, for
your dedication over the yearsto creating this model, to
sharing it with us.
I know it's a lot of work inthe background and in the
foreground, so I want to justappreciate and celebrate you, Dr
.
Frank Corrigan, for being hereand sharing all this with us.
(01:02:46):
Thanks for coming on the show!
Dr. Frank Corrigan (01:02:47):
Thank you for having me.
Thank you.
Lisa Danylchuk (01:02:48):
Thanks so much for listening.
My hope is that you walk awayfrom these episodes feeling
supported and like you have aplace to come to find the hope
and inspiration you need to takeyour next small step forward.
For more information andresources please visit
HowWeCanHeal.
com.
You'll find tons of helpfulresources There you'll and the
show notes for each show.
Thanks for your messages,feedback
and ideas about the podcast.
I love hearing from you and soappreciate your support.
There are lots of ways you cansupport the show and I'm
grateful for every little bit oflove you share.
If you love the show, pleaseleave us a review on Apple
(01:03:09):
Spotify, Audible wherever youget your podcasts.
You can always visithowwecanhealcom backslash
podcast to share yourhowwecanhealcom/ ideas as well.
Before we wrap, I want to beclear that this podcast isn't
offering any prescriptions.
It's not advice or any kind ofdiagnosis.
Your decisions are in yourhands and we encourage you to
(01:03:31):
consult with any healthcareprofessionals you may need to
support you through your uniquepath of healing.
In addition, everyone's opinionon this show is their own and
opinions can change right.
Guests share their thoughts,not that of the host or sponsors
.
I'd also like to send a hugethanks to everyone who helps
(01:03:51):
support this podcast, directlyand indirectly.
Alex, thanks for taking care ofthe babe and the fur babies
while I record.
Lastly, I'd like to give ashout out to my big brother,
Matt, who passed away in 2002.
He wrote this music and itmakes my heart so happy to share
it with you here.
Thank you.
Welcome back to the how we Can Heal podcast.
Today we welcome Dr.
Frank Corrigan to the show.
Throughout his career spanningover 30 years as a National
Health Service ConsultantPsychiatrist in Scotland, Frank
combined his extensive clinicalexperience with research on the
neurobiology of trauma and itsunderpinnings in major
psychiatric disorders.
(00:29):
His research broadly exploredthe intersection between
affective neuroscience and thescience of healing, culminating
in the development of deep brainreorienting, or DBR, which
we'll focus on today.
Today you'll get to hear aboutDBR directly from Frank in his
mellifluous Scottish accent.
You can always follow along onYouTube too, if you'd like some
(00:51):
visual support as well.
I'm honored to have him hereand I think you're really going
to enjoy this healingconversation, so please join me
in welcoming Dr Frank Corriganto the show.
I want to give a big shout outand extend a huge thank you to
the International Society forthe Study of Trauma and
Dissociation, the ISSTD, forsponsoring this episode.
(01:11):
If you've been listening to thispodcast for any amount of time,
you've heard me talk aboutISSTD and the incredible
researchers, clinicians andadvocates I've met during my
time as a member and a volunteerthere.
I even completed my DBR levelone training with Frank Corrigan
in person at the recent ISSTDconference in Boston, which we
talk about in today's episode.
The ISSTD has been delving intothe science and best practice
(01:35):
of treating trauma anddissociation for over 40 years
now, and they have a richcatalog of educational offerings
for both professionals andnon-professionals on their
website that's cfasisst-dorg.
If you're a mental healthprofessional, I highly recommend
(01:56):
you consider becoming a memberof ISSTD.
I'd love to see you during thelive educational offerings and
at the annual conference inPortland, Oregon, in March of
2026.
Visit ISST-Dorg to learn more.
(02:16):
Awesome, Frank Corrigan, welcometo the how we Can Heal podcast.
I'm so excited to have you hereand to talk about you and your
journey with DBR.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (02:26):
Thank you for inviting me.
I'm honored and pleased to behere.
Lisa Danylchuk (02:30):
Yes! So for those who haven't listened to
other episodes where we talkabout DBR, DBR stands for Deep
Brain Reorienting and it'ssomething that you developed,
and I'm curious just what ledyou to discover and create DBR.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (02:50):
It's been an evolution of a process rather
than a sudden insight.
I think I've trained in manydifferent trauma therapy
modalities over the years andI've always been looking for
something that was effective forthe most seriously traumatized
(03:11):
people without beingoverwhelming.
And a lot of the difficulty Ihad with other modalities is
that while they were veryeffective for many conditions,
they were often overwhelming forthose who were really severely
(03:38):
traumatized.
So I've been working on a wayof understanding why that
overwhelm occurred and lookingto see if there were ways of
preparing the processing, thehealing process, in a way that
flowed with less risk ofoverwhelm.
Lisa Danylchuk (03:52):
Yeah, that's such an important point and I
feel like I've talked about thatwith a lot of people on the
show.
I remember having aconversation with Kathy Steele,
who you know, and you know, likefinding that edge in clinical
treatment of like what's justenough, where we're not
overwhelming but we're not inavoidance or feeling stuck right
, like how do we find that edgewhere there's progress but not
(04:14):
so much quote progress that it'sactually a backslide right, not
so much overwhelm or digginginto something that's
traumatizing so that it'sre-traumatizing.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (04:24):
Yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk (04:25):
So it's definitely a theme in the field,
especially the more complextrauma we're working with.
I'm curious too, just tobackstep, how did you get
interested in treatingpsychological trauma?
Dr. Frank Corrigan (04:52):
Oh, being in psychiatry from 1977 onwards
and being preoccupied often withthose who were most seriously
at risk of suicide, andobserving that those who were
not psychotic, who were activelysuicidal, were usually those
who had a severe trauma history,usually those who had a severe
trauma history.
Lisa Danylchuk (05:49):
Yeah, and you're talking about those two ends of
the spectrum right away,between being overwhelmed and
having too much come up too fastand being almost in avoidance.
With PTSD, Avoidance is one ofthe key indicators or symptoms.
So are we sort of colludingwith that avoidance and just
tiptoeing and not saying thewords or not trying to evoke any
(06:10):
emotion or fear or memory, orare we holding space for that
and in a careful way, in askillful way, helping people to
process it?
And I think that's what's socool.
I mean I just, you know, I justdid my level one DBR training
in Boston with you and so I'mreally excited about this
modality as an option for for adifferent point of entry.
(06:34):
So you know, some folkslistening may have done DBR
training.
They may have read your bookalready.
Some folks, I'm sure, haven't.
So how would you explain DBR inthe most simplest terms to
someone who's just hearing aboutit for the first time?
Dr. Frank Corrigan (06:49):
I think the thing that's emerged over the
years of doing DBR is theimportance of shock.
And in DBR we're defining shockas a brainstem and upper brain
response that occurs beforethere's any activation of the
(07:10):
peripheral nervous system.
So during shock people may haveexperiences of cold shivers,
shudders, emptying, electriccharges, pressure in the head,
pressure behind the eyes.
There's all sorts of sensationsthat go with this shock, but
(07:34):
there isn't a change immediatelyin the peripheral autonomic
nervous system.
And because there's been such afocus on the autonomic nervous
system, I think that's why shockhasn't been recognized in this
way.
And it's become apparentthrough studying the brainstem
(07:59):
neuroanatomy and studying thesequence of responses in the
brainstem to a traumaticstimulus.
And we've seen that there's thepossibility of this shock
response in the brain beforethere's any intense emotion,
(08:22):
before there's any change in theperipheral autonomic nervous
system.
Lisa Danylchuk (08:28):
Right.
So before there's what we'refocusing so much on – fight,
flight, freeze, collapse, all ofthat – you're honing in on the
moment before that, right beforethose signals get transmitted
through the rest of the brain,throughout the body, before
we're in this, you know, hyperaroused or hypo aroused state,
(08:48):
there's that moment of shock.
So you're really defining theshock as those early I'm
imagining seconds, right at the,at the very.
.
.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (08:56):
Probably milliseconds.
You know, it's probably reallyfast, and I think that's why
it's so easily missed.
Lisa Danylchuk (09:03):
Yes.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (09:04):
Yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk (09:04):
Because there's so much after those few
milliseconds too right, all theflooding of what we're just
talking about endorphins oradrenaline, or trying to get to
safety or trying to work throughwhatever the the trauma or the
struggle is like.
It's easy to focus on thosebecause those can be louder
right?
Dr. Frank Corrigan (09:23):
Yeah, they take the attention immediately.
If you're hit by the suddenterror, you're not going to be
thinking about the fleetingsensations that preceded that.
You're going to be utterlypreoccupied with the terror.
Lisa Danylchuk (09:44):
And so with shock you just mentioned
sensations in the back of thehead or the eyes or the forehead
.
I'm wondering how you made thatconnection.
Is that specific toneuroanatomy or is that
something you observedclinically, that people were
having these shock responsesthrough, fluttering muscles
around the eyes or having a lotof sensation in the brainstem
area?
Dr. Frank Corrigan (10:07):
The other key thing in DPR is the
orienting tension and that comesfrom the brainstem as a
response to a stimulus beforethere's any shock or before
there's any emotional response.
And what we've found, greatlyto my surprise I have to say, is
(10:32):
that if we can identify theorienting tension that comes
before the shock, comes beforethe emotions, we've got an
anchor in the subsequentprocessing that greatly reduces
the risk of overwhelm.
So if we get our orientingtension at the beginning and
(10:56):
then slow everything down toseparate out the shock from the
emotions, we're then usuallyinto a process in a way that's
manageable, that's notoverwhelming.
So our first task in a DPRsession is to find the orienting
(11:17):
tension.
The second is to look for theshock.
Lisa Danylchuk (11:21):
So you find - and I know just from the
training that even before thatlike getting connected to what
you would call whereself -where the body is now, where our
brain is in the moment.
For a long time I'veunderstood that as grounding and
orienting, but I think you comeat it from a bit of a different
angle.
So again, backing up, is thereanything you want to say about
(11:43):
the importance of that firstpreparatory step before finding
orienting tension?
Dr. Frank Corrigan (11:50):
This has proved to be another important
feature of DBR, Again rather tomy surprise.
It was based on the idea thatthe brainstem, the superior
colliculus in the brainstem, isa focal point for taking in
(12:10):
information, for taking inimmediate stimuli that may, of
course, be threatening, and thenorganizing an immediate
response to them.
So the superior colliculi needto know where the body is, and
(12:31):
the information about where thebody is comes from systems in
the brain that separate out theinformation about where the body
is from what we areencountering.
So we have tried to localizeour self in a way that takes in
(12:54):
brain systems for where the bodyis here now, with its mapping
of the surrounding spaceaccording to the direction that
we're facing, our awareness ofgravity and so on.
Lisa Danylchuk (13:12):
And that in my mind – from all the other
trainings I've done, and I knowyou work with people who've done
so many different trainings –is more about orienting to the
present moment and the presentspace and the literal "where is
my body?
And connecting with, as you'resaying, the superior colliculi.
Through that connection and Iknow folks do I'm also in the
(13:32):
yoga world and there's all kindsof ways we can start a session
by grounding or orienting.
We can find something to lookat, we can touch, you know, feel
the touch of the chair or thefloor, all these different
things.
But some of those go in thedirection of which I think is
risky, with trauma of like closeyour eyes, go inside, let's
(13:52):
drop in, but where self isdifferent, right, rather than
being like a dropping in andgetting really focused
internally like a hypnotic sortof induction, it's more about
really connecting with gravity,and I know from doing the
training even where's theposition of your body in the
room.
?
Where are you hearing soundsfrom?
Where is your position in thehotel that you're in or the room
(14:15):
that you're in?
It's so much more specific ofan orientation practice than
I've had before, and Iappreciate the name too, like
the where self.
It's not about doing something,it's really about locating.
About your brain and your bodylocating itself here and now.
Is that fair?
Is that a fair description?
Dr. Frank Corrigan (14:35):
Absolutely, that's a g ood description.
Lisa Danylchuk (15:04):
And then once someone has that and their body,
their brain knows where theyare, is oriented to that, is
connected to a sense of where,then you would look for the
orienting tension and then youwould proceed once that's clear
with the DVR process.
So that's kind of the sequenceof things.
Um, I'm wondering if you wantto say anything about how shock
comes up and through the body.
You've done I don't even knowwhat a fair estimate is probably
thousands, tens of thousands ofsessions of this at this point.
It's evolved over time.
What do you notice about howshock emerges when we are paying
(15:25):
attention to that orientingtension and to those
milliseconds in response to thestimulus of the trauma?
Dr. Frank Corrigan (15:34):
If I may just say a little bit more about
where self before I come tothat
The study in Canada has reallyshown that the ability to locate
where self is what allows aperson to go on to do DBR
processing.
If somebody can't locate whereself, then they're not yet ready
(15:59):
to do DBR.
So it's proved a reallyimportant threshold for crossing
before doing the traumaprocessing with DBR.
So we locate where self, wepresent the activating stimulus,
we look for the orientingtension in the forehead, the
(16:24):
muscles around the eyes or themuscles at the base of the skull
, and then we have to slow down.
This is where it's reallydifficult for everybody at the
start, because we're slowingdown to try to pick up these
sensations that have beenfleeting, that have happened
(16:46):
probably in milliseconds.
So we're having to slow itright down and the therapist has
to be directive here to lookfor the shock and to ask is
there any jolt or judder throughyour body?
Is there any pressure behindthe eyes, for example?
So if the sensations aren'tvolunteered, so we slow down,
(17:12):
give it space, and everyindividual's shock sensations
are different.
So every time I do a menu ofshock sensations it's incomplete
because there's always otherpossibilities that arise and we
have to be open to whatever itis in a particular person.
Lisa Danylchuk (17:38):
Yeah, so honing in and slowing down.
I saw there was anothertraining, I think it's someone
you've worked with who doesAlexander technique I'm
forgetting the name at themoment, but he was talking about
, you know, people wanting to gofrom A to C or A to Z in a
session, and sometimes thesession is just staying with A
(17:59):
or maybe going from A to B.
So it's really about honing inand slowing down, as you're
mentioning, and picking up onthese subtleties that can get
overlooked but that I thinkwarrant space, right.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (18:17):
Yeah, this is the crucial thing with shock
when we identify it, we need tosit with it.
We don't try to do anythingwith it, so we would usually say
to the person we're workingwith these sensations that
you're describing to me arecoming from the shock.
(18:37):
We'll get to the fear or rageor grief or shame or whatever
the emotions are when the timeis right.
If possible, can you stay withthese shock sensations?
Just let us be with them, and Ithink I don't know, but I think
(19:00):
there's probably somethingimportant about being able to
describe the shock sensations toanother and be able to sit with
them, with another alsoattending to them, and all being
well that shock energy thendissipates, and the pressure in
(19:30):
the head reduces, or the coldshiver down the spine disappears
, or the weakness in the arms,to use an example from early
attachment shock, the weaknessin the arms clears and the power
comes back into the arms.
(19:50):
So we need to give the shock asmuch space and time as it needs
for the energy of it todissipate and clear.
Lisa Danylchuk (19:56):
So you've described shock in terms of
where it can show up, someexamples in terms of pressure in
the head or at the base of theskull or the eyes, jaw.
There's a lot of it focusedhigher up in the body.
You also mentioned the armsright now and saying that
there's no right or wrong.
We want to stay open to eachperson's body and response.
(20:19):
We've also described the shockin terms of time.
This is a very narrowmillisecond or milliseconds that
we're focusing on after thetrauma is, at the very beginning
of the trauma essentially, orwhen we first become aware of it
at a deep brain level.
Is there anything else thatfeels important about shock?
I know questions come up aroundthis because we're so focused
(20:42):
on the latter parts ofpost-traumatic stress and
complex trauma and how they showup relationally in all of this.
Is there anything else that youfeel like is important to
communicate about w hat shock is, what that means?
Dr. Frank Corrigan (20:54):
Yeah, when I first identified it it was to
do with an attachment rupture.
So it was attachment shock thatI focused on initially and
looked for the immediate impactof a rejection or a humiliation
(21:15):
or an abandonment or somethingof that sort that would, coming
out of the blue, potentially bequite shocking.
So I initially focused on theattachment shock and then got as
much of that processed aspossible before picking up the
pain of the abandonment orrejection and then the emotions
(21:41):
that come in response to thatpain.
So we followed a sequence fromthe stimulus through the
orienting tension, to the shock,to the pain, to the emotions.
And if we'd slowed that downenough then by the time we got
(22:02):
to the emotions they weren'toverwhelming as a rule you know.
They could process naturallybecause you'd taken the
amplifier out of the system.
The shock energy was theamplifier and when that was gone
then the the affects, theemotions, process neatly.
(22:24):
So that was the attachmentshock.
But then I find, similarly forinterpersonal shocks or natural
disaster shocks, that we'vefollowed the same principles get
the orienting tension and thenlook for the shock.
Lisa Danylchuk (22:45):
Mm-hmm yeah there's so many places I feel
like I can go with this, so I'mtrying to slow myself down
because I'm like we could gohere, we could go there.
I one question I have orcomment too is, in popularized
trauma awareness, maybe not somuch in people whose expertise
(23:06):
and professional life is devotedto trauma, but there's a lot of
talk of the amygdala and theprefrontal cortex.
We want to go to a very simpletriune brain model.
There's three parts, and thisis all it does.
So your model and deep brainreorienting aren't focused on
the amygdala, right?
This is more the deep brain andyou've talked about and I love
(23:32):
the periaqueductal gray and thesuperior colliculi – I just love
saying them.
Honestly, I'm not aneuroscientist and I did do some
fMRI studies for a while ingraduate school, but I'm
interested how you got connectedto these areas of the brain,
what turned you on to it, and ifyou can just say a little bit
to folks listening about whythose areas – and maybe others
(23:55):
if you'd like – are importantwhen we're focusing on this
shock, this early shock.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (24:03):
Yeah, I was heavily influenced by the work
of Jaak Panksepp.
So you know, with treatingtrauma and I was seeing fear and
rage and grief and panic andthen I go to the literature to
find out about them and they'reall coming from the
periaqueductal grey (PAG) in thehypothalamus, not the amygdala.
(24:26):
So I focused in on theperiaqueductal grey and when I
was more focused on emotionalresponses I tended to look for
what I thought was activity inthe PAG during the processing.
(24:46):
But one of the criticalexperiences for me was seeing
that the affects, the emotions,could be completely cleared and
yet there was still anactivation there that would
cause insomnia or rumination orhypervigilance to threat.
(25:19):
So when I looked for thepotential source of that shock,
I came up with the locuscoeruleus in the pons, which
seemed to me to be the likelystructure for mediating the
impact of shocking experiencesin those milliseconds after
they're registered, and thenlater, with reading a book by
(25:39):
Donald Pfaff, went deeper intothe brainstem and hypothesized
that the giant cell nucleus inthe medulla oblongata is also
significant in shock.
So I see these structures asactivating the upper brain,
(26:00):
including the amygdala and thehippocampus, so you can get
emotional memories formed ifyou've got enough activation of
shock plus PAG, plushypothalamus, all activation
feeding into the amygdala, thehippocampus.
Then you can get emotionalmemories for stimulus and for
(26:26):
context.
You can get those formed.
But the key thing for me wasthat there had been a focus on
the learning, without referenceto where the activation of the
learning came from.
So that's why I thought when weget to the amygdala we've
(26:50):
already gone too high up in thebrain.
Lisa Danylchuk (26:59):
So that's again where the slowing down and
backing up before it gets tothat point, before we're
inundated with emotion or terror, rage, shame, grief, all of
that really backing it up.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (27:10):
Yeah, yeah.
And we know, I think, fromstudies of fear learning that
extinction models work with arelearning from the prefrontal
cortex to the amygdala and thatcan take a long time and it
doesn't necessarily generalisevery well and we argue that
(27:34):
that's because you've still gota sensitization at the brainstem
level, so you've got asensitivity to fear, for example
with specific stimuli.
And unless we get to that level, we're only doing a top-down
regulating, we're not doing aclearing from the bottom up.
Lisa Danylchuk (27:58):
Yes, that just tees up the next question, which
is what might people be missingif they're not addressing shock
or they're not addressing whathappens in the deep brain?
Dr. Frank Corrigan (28:10):
If I can give an example, one of the
things that I've noticed is withtraumatic bereavement, that
people may have suffered atraumatic bereavement and then
they've worked on it for years,decades even, and it's not
cleared.
And they've used all theavailable trauma therapies to
(28:32):
get to it and it's not cleared.
And when I've seen people withtraumatic bereavements that have
persisted in their clinicaleffects, I've found that it's
because the shock in the firstmoment of realising when the
(28:53):
body is hit by what has happened, when the brainstem is hit long
, long, many milliseconds beforethe cortex catches up, that's
the piece that we need to get tobe with, that's the shock we
need to identify and be with.
And if we can be with that,then the amplification of the
(29:20):
emotions disappears and peoplethen can process their emotional
responses in a more natural way.
Lisa Danylchuk (29:36):
But have you found like a rhythm or some sort
of predictability at all withintegration time for folks in
between sessions or afterattending to this early shock,
maybe for the first time?
Dr. Frank Corrigan (29:53):
It's hard to say.
The study in Canada is onlyeight sessions of DBR and that
is not what we would usually doin routine clinical practice.
I mean most people, especiallywith severe, complex trauma
(30:14):
disorders, would need many, manymore sessions than that.
But it is, I think,constructive that even eight
sessions is showing asignificant improvement in the
PTSD score and other scores thatare used in the study.
And also Ruth Lanius hasobserved from the imaging data
(30:44):
that are emerging that there arechanges in the functional
connectivity in the brain aftereven the eight sessions.
So this is really impressive.
I mean for me it's veryexciting because it's bearing
out the theory on which theclinical model is based.
So it's great to have thatvalidation.
(31:06):
But I think in time, as thedata get analyzed and published,
it'll really add to thisawareness that we've got to get
to the shock, to reduce theshock impact on the upper brain
structures if we want to clearthe trauma impact at the deepest
(31:30):
level possible.
Lisa Danylchuk (31:31):
Yes, that's really exciting.
Can you say what the functionalconnectivity is, or is it too
soon?
Dr. Frank Corrigan (31:38):
It's probably too soon.
Lisa Danylchuk (31:40):
Leave us on the edge of our seats.
Well, we did have Ruth Laniustalk about this study in the
last season of this podcast, andthat was episode one in the
last season and it's been a verypopular one.
So I think it is interestingjust to see the research that's
coming out, and eight sessionsis, in the context of things,
not a lot of treatment, so it'sexciting to see that, and it's
(32:05):
exciting to see that it was done, because of the COVID-19
pandemic, largely online, and so, even though there is this nth
element of being together thatcan be powerful, can be
threatening, depending on theperson, there's something about
this technique that translatesum that in terms of teletherapy
and telehealth as well.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (32:24):
I think it's nice that we have the evidence
from study of online DBR,because and that would usually
be more of a second line study,I think so it's nice, especially
when there was restrictedcommunication during the
(32:45):
pandemic, to have these resultscoming from an online study.
Lisa Danylchuk (32:50):
Yeah, now I can imagine some people might be
listening.
This might be the first timethey've heard of DBR.
They've been in a lot of traumatherapy or maybe a friend or
family member has, and they'reexcited, right listening, and,
saying, I want to jump in and Iwant to do it.
What – well I guess the firstquestion is kind of what would
you say to folks who areinterested in receiving
(33:10):
treatment for themselves in DBRand what are maybe some
preparatory things to thinkabout or to look for if they're
looking for support in this way?
Dr. Frank Corrigan (33:21):
Yeah, and I'm aware that the availability
of DBR is not yet widespread andwe need to do more trainings.
We need to have more trainersand we're working on that
currently.
It's just evolved so fast.
The demand has evolved so fast,entirely by word of mouth.
(33:46):
Yeah, especially in the earlydays, people are saying this
works, learn more about it.
Lisa Danylchuk (33:58):
Yeah, and what's the simplest way you would
describe what happens in a DBRsession or what people could
expect if, even if theirtherapist happens to be trained
in it and they're wanting toshift and try something new?
It's a different experience,right.
It's different than all theother modalities.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (34:19):
One of the differences, I think, is that
often the processing is insilence.
So at the beginning of thesession the therapist is really
active.
What do you want to work ontoday?
Let me help you define theactivating stimulus in as brief
(34:39):
a way as possible.
Let's define that.
Now we'll go to where selfpresent the activating stimulus,
get the orienting tension, lookfor the shock, stay with the
shock, if possible until theenergy of it dissipates.
Then the affect comes in andthere may be a move between
(35:04):
affect and shock.
But a lot of the time, oncewe've identified and helped the
person identify that sequencefrom the orienting tension to
the shock, to the affect we'rethen letting it process because
(35:24):
it's the person's brain thatknows what's required.
It's not the therapist thatknows what's required.
So the therapist has to be ableto often sit in silence and be
attentive without sayinganything.
And that's difficult for manytherapists to do that because
(35:48):
they feel they should be doingsomething.
And actually a lot of the time,once we've got it set up, we
stay attentive, we stay focused,but often we're not saying
anything.
We're letting that process flowand for many people that's
(36:11):
quite refreshing to come to atalking therapy session and not
have to talk about your trauma.
They may not even need to tellmuch about it to the therapist.
They're able to highlight apiece of it and then go into
processing and during thatprocessing other memories may
(36:39):
come up, because it may be thatthis sequence of shock into pain
in to affect underlies manydifferent traumatic experiences
in the person's life.
So rather than having to pickthose off one by one, we get the
sequence and we stay with itand allow the brain to process
(37:03):
in the way that it needs to, andthe therapist is attentive and
non-directive during that partof the session.
Lisa Danylchuk (37:16):
Yeah, two things stand out to me from that.
One is the attentiveness of thetherapist and the temptation
for therapists to feel like Ihave to be doing something, when
being attentive is a verypowerful thing to quote do or
not do right, just being withsomeone and I've seen you offer
demonstrations and I'veparticipated in the practicum
(37:38):
and you know we can feel whensomeone's with us and when
they're not right you can kindof sense if someone's starting
to get distracted or go away andthere's something really
powerful.
It seems it'll be interestingin further studies too of just
that presence and that sense ofI'm here with you, right, and
that's something I've heardpeople say in these sessions of
(38:00):
just I'm here, you know, andmaybe a little check-in, and if
the person's still movingthrough something or processing,
we just allow it and reallygive space for it.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (38:14):
Yeah, yeah, and it can take a while for us
as therapists to get it rightbecause different people require
different support during theprocessing.
Some may like us to just checkin every now and again.
You know, are you doing okaywith this?
They can know to not come outof process, because we don't
want to ask any question thatwould take the person out of
(38:38):
their intrinsic process and upto the higher thinking level of
the brain.
We want to keep it at thisdeeper level yeah, yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk (38:48):
And the other point that came to me as you're
talking is just the fact thatsilence can be overwhelming,
like even in yoga or meditation,like close your eyes, go inside
.
Like that's a very looseinstruction for someone who has
a lot of trauma and so silencecan be challenging for folks but
when we're really focused onthis short small window of time
and there is a very strongcontainer with deep brain
(39:17):
reorienting of what we're doing,how we're focusing, and I know,
even for myself as aparticipant, as a client, I can
go right up to storytelling andemotion really quick, I'm doing
like more of an EMDR thing in mybrain and and my, my
practitioner is like "can wecome back to what you're you
know, can we come back?
" And that's really helpful.
(39:39):
So, it's an attentiveness andit's also not just going along
for the ride.
There's, there's some of that,but there's also some of like
are we really addressing thething we're trying to address
right now?
And that can be a big challenge.
But it's also quite clear, oncethere's an emotion coming up
that's big or that's coming inat all, we know, okay, we're
(40:01):
moving to a different part ofthe brain.
Let's back up, let's reorient,if you will.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (40:08):
But if the shock is cleared, we would often
stay with the emotion becausewe would often want to validate
that, to use my traumaticbereavement example.
Once the shock is cleared, thenthe sadness comes in in a way
that it's possible for theperson to process.
So naturally, we're going togive space for that too.
(40:33):
And again, as we're sittingwith that, it's the therapist
being human, being presentrather than doing something you
know, applying a technique orparticular words that you know
should be said every now andagain .
Lisa Danylchuk (40:58):
And anytime there's a model and there's
training, we can, as therapists,like what's the right way and
what's the right thing to say,and I love and appreciate coming
back to the humanness of it andthere's often intuitive signals
we're picking up on or sensesthat we're coming to, especially
if it's a long-term client thatwe know very well, that can be
powerful information forprocessing or for the work.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (41:24):
Yeah, if it's people we know very well,
then we're able to adjust ourinput to an optimal level.
But of course it can changeover time too, depending on
whether the person is working onsomething from very early in
life, when perhaps there was notan attuned presence, or when a
(41:47):
silence was threatening orsuggestive of aggression coming
in.
So we have to adjust how muchinput we have according to what
the person needs in relation towhat they're processing.
Lisa Danylchuk (42:05):
Yeah, Can you speak to how – you mentioned
attachment earlier and evenfinding the orienting tension
from that place – can you speakto how attachment shows up in
this work?
Dr. Frank Corrigan (42:37):
I argue that the basic connection to another
comes from a sensory orientingto the other and then usually
from an affective r esponse tothat, so that before there's any
attachment there's this sensoryaffective connection at the
midbrain level.
And if we don't have that or ifthere's a disruption of that,
(42:57):
we can also have the conflict inrelation to the other at that
level.
So the infant may, for example,want to reach out and then see
that mother's face is completelystill and get blocked in the
movement of reaching out withshock and then with the pain of
(43:21):
what is experienced as rejection.
So there's then a conflict atthe collicular level between
reaching out and pulling back.
And when we get the orientingtension in relation to that
conflict and we would usuallyuse a present day trigger as a
(43:43):
way in then we get the orientingtension.
We can explore, or what arisesrather is that conflict between
reaching and recoiling, forexample, and then the shock and
(44:05):
the pain that go with that, andso we can get into these
conflicts that have arisen evenfrom very early in life, we can
get into the brainstemmanifestations of them, I
hypothesize by using apresent-day trigger of – It
might be a relatively smallstimulus in comparison with many
(44:29):
others, but just some moment inan interaction that's felt
rejecting or abandoning.
We can use that as a way intoan underlying conflict.
Lisa Danylchuk (44:42):
Another thing you talk about is this core
aloneness pain.
Is that something that you findspecific to attachment work or
is that something you find inmost or all clients comes up?
Dr. Frank Corrigan (44:57):
I tend to go with the idea that attachment
to others is the mostfundamental mammalian need and
so if that need is not met, thenthe experience, the internal
experience, is likely to bepainful and, depending on the
(45:21):
circumstances, there can be ahuge variety of responses to
that pain which I call, as yousay, core aloneness pain, and
often even with severe traumahistory, there are moments
(45:42):
within the traumas when thealoneness is the most painful
aspect of it.
Lisa Danylchuk (46:15):
So I'm assuming, then that focusing on the
initial shock of that moment ofaloneness pain whether you're
starting with a you knownon-response to a text message
or you're ending up at thatreaching and leaning back
conflict of the infant, like youwere describing, that clearing
those really initial deep brainresponses to, to those moments
will help.
Because when I say somethinglike core aloneness pain, I'm
like whoa, that's big, right,that's big.
(46:36):
So, in order to get there, fromthis perspective, it's
important to focus on theinitial shock that then preceded
that deep pain in order for itto be less overwhelming.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (46:53):
Yes, yeah, I think that the shock usually
precedes the pain, which in turn, precedes the emotional
responses to that pain.
So that's what we're lookingfor in relation to those
aversive attachment experiencesthe shock, the pain then the
(47:14):
emotions.
Lisa Danylchuk (47:18):
Another important thing here and I know
we're talking level two, levelthree stuff in terms of how you
train mental healthprofessionals in deep brain
reorienting but dissociation issomething that I've worked with
for a long time and I thinkpeople are becoming more aware
of in the clinical world andvaluing as an adaptive response.
Can you speak to how DBRaddresses dissociation or even
(47:41):
dissociative identity?
Dr. Frank Corrigan (47:44):
Yeah, and I'm sure it's an oversimplified
model in the eyes of many butit's clinically useful.
So what we use is a model inwhich we are seeing dissociation
as a response to that pain ofaloneness, that if it starts
(48:07):
very early in life then there'sa capacity at the mid-brain
level to turn away from it.
And this is not happening to me.
This is not my pain.
So the primary dissociationfrom the pain would be that kind
of involuntary turning awayfrom it.
(48:28):
And of course, if the pain hasbeen so intense and often if it
arises from very early life,it's described as unbearable and
unending.
So those two words often areused around that core pain.
It just feels unbearable andit's never going to end.
(48:50):
So if the brain has found thattoo much to turn to and has
turned away, then if we'returning back towards it, we have
to do it very carefully andjust take our time with it.
But as we do it carefully andslowly, then it gives that
(49:19):
underlying pain a chance toclear and resolve.
We also use the idea ofneurochemical dissociation for
the cannabinoids when emotionsare so intense that they need to
be capped by the midbrains, sothe cannabinoids come in and cut
(49:40):
them off at a high level butprevent them getting too high
and then endogenous opioidscoming in and shutting down and
making sleepy and drowsy anddropping the heart rate and the
blood pressure and so on.
So we've got that neurochemicaldissociation.
(50:02):
We also describe what I callintracortical dissociation as
the result of shock activatingthe cortex in a chaotic way, so
that then the cortex loses thecoherent sense of a self in
(50:24):
relation to the world and inrelation to others.
So I see that intracorticaldissociation as linked to
experiences chronically often ofderealization and
depersonalization.
Lisa Danylchuk (50:43):
Yeah.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (50:44):
And then finally the structural
dissociation, where we haveparts of self split off and I
see those as arising fromcircuitry from the cortex
through the basal gangliastriatum and thalamus and back
(51:06):
to cortex.
So those circuits I think haveseparated off from the brainstem
activations that probably gaverise to them.
And when we're working withstructurally dissociated states
we're trying to keep below thelevel of those parts of the self
(51:27):
and work with the underlyingshock and pain and emotion.
Lisa Danylchuk (51:34):
Yeah, I'd imagine that could be complex if
different parts are showing upin session of, needing a sense
of collaboration amongst partsbefore you go to the deep brain.
I mean, that's maybe a moreadvanced clinical question here.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (51:50):
Yeah, but usually I would explain it on
the basis that we're not workingspecifically with the parts.
We're trying to help with aclearing of an underlying shock
and pain that probably affectsall parts of the system.
So we present the argumentwe're not working with specific
(52:15):
parts, we're trying to getunderneath to something that
will help every part of thesystem feel better.
Of course that as you know willsometimes provoke controversy
within the brain, but we do whatwe can to work around that and
(52:35):
keep working at the deeper level, below the level of the of the
parts of self,
Lisa Danylchuk (52:42):
And with all of that, starting with where self,
and that as the foundation right.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (52:47):
Absolutely yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
We never go into DPR withoutstarting with and, as I said at
the beginning, it's a goodguide to whether someone is
ready for DPR processing or not.
Lisa Danylchuk (53:05):
Yeah, there's so many questions in terms of
dissociation, but I'll justenroll in level three for that.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (53:11):
Right, okay.
Lisa Danylchuk (53:12):
Level two is attachment focus.
Level three is dissociativefocus.
Okay, yeah.
I know our training
(53:34):
Yeah, and I know this is anoversimplified model, but, as I
say, it works clinically, sothat's why I think it's worth
pursuing.
What's the leading edge for you now?
What are you interested in?
I know you're working to get upto speed and get people trained
, and that's plenty, but I'mcurious if there's just
questions you're wanting topursue in terms of research or
(53:54):
ideas, thoughts you have righton on the edge of this as it's
growing.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (54:13):
Even if it's not got the 7 Tesla
neuroimaging, just to test outthe clinical application in
another centre would be great.
So there's a few peopleinterested and I'm hoping one of
them will get the funding to gowith this in time, because that
(54:34):
would really.
If we got support from a secondstudy, it would help to change
national guidelines on treatingPTSD, for example, and I think
on treating dissociativedisorders, given the proportion
of participants in the study whoalso had a comorbid
(54:57):
dissociative disorders.
So it could, once that'spublished, I think it could help
to change available treatmentsfor complex PTSD and
dissociative disorders.
Lisa Danylchuk (55:14):
Yeah, and is there a population you feel like
DBR is best for in terms ofclients?
Dr. Frank Corrigan (55:24):
Yeah, yeah, it's fairly difficult to
(55:52):
identify inclusion and exclusioncriteria, particularly based on
diagnoses which are often notreally very precise.
So I tend to think that ifsomebody has a clinical disorder
that's based in traumaticexperience or traumatic
experiences, it's worth thinkingabout
And because we can do itgradually just by ourselves.
Make sure that's possible.
Can we get an orienting tension?
Do you feel able to go on intothe shock of this relatively
minor present day trigger thatwe select so we can go into it
(56:16):
carefully and slowly and withfull collaboration of the client
or patient, and that then letsus see, I think, whether we can
or can't do DPR with that person.
Lisa Danylchuk (56:31):
Yeah, and so the capacity to access where self
is one thing I'd imagine.
Just in terms of age, I don'tknow if there's been a lot.
I think there's been some workwith kids too, right with
younger people, so there'sobviously maybe like a language
threshold at least, where youngpeople would need to understand
the process and be able to goalong with it.
(56:52):
Is there anything else thatshows up in terms of exclusion
or limitation or caution?
Dr. Frank Corrigan (57:03):
Nothing specific.
I think there are conditionslike traumatic brain injuries,
for example.
I think there are conditionslike traumatic brain injuries,
for example, where it may bethat the processing capacity has
been altered and we would needto go carefully just to make
sure there's enough processingcapacity.
People have asked aboutpsychosis.
(57:25):
Don't have enough informationon that just now.
I think if a psychosis werewell regulated by medication, it
may be possible to do usefulwork on any trauma history that
there is, and whether it wouldimpact on the severity or the
(57:48):
intensity or the frequency ofepisodes of psychosis.
I don't know.
It needs a study.
If I may say, though, whenyou're asking about further
developments, the thing that Ithink really needs studied, as
well as another study ofstraight DBR and complex PTSD,
(58:12):
the thing that we really need isa study of DBR in acute
situations like war zones and soon, to see if processing the
shock of a very recent event,like one's house being shelled
the day before or something likethat, if processing the shock
(58:32):
of that, reduces the long-termrisk of PTSD.
I think that's a hugelyimportant question, so maybe
somebody listening will have theability to follow that one up.
Lisa Danylchuk (58:47):
Yes, we can always ask, we can always hope.
So if people want to gettrained, where would you send
folks?
Would it just bedeepbrainreorienting.
com?
Dr. Frank Corrigan (58:59):
Yeah, it's good if they go there register
interest there.
Lisa Danylchuk (59:04):
Okay, and most of the trainings are being done
online these days.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (59:07):
Yes, Most of them are done online.
Lisa Danylchuk (59:10):
Yeah, okay great and your book, together with
Hannah Young, Jessica ChristieSands, Deep Brain Reorienting:
Understanding the neuroscienceof trauma, attachment wounding
and deep brain reorientingpsychotherapy.
That's available throughRoutledge, pretty much anywhere
people get books online.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (59:31):
Yeah, that was recently published.
That's good to have it outthere.
Lisa Danylchuk (59:35):
Yes, yeah, that's a great project.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (59:50):
No, I think.
.
.
.
Lisa Danylchuk (59:51):
That's plenty!
Dr. Frank Corrigan (59:53):
I think there's a lot going on and
there's a lot of potential formore developments here.
So I hope I've outlined enoughto to give people an idea of
what's involved here
Lisa Danylchuk (01:00:00):
And if people want to connect with you, it's
deepbrainreorienting.
com.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (01:00:04):
Yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk (01:00:06):
Wonderful, I usually ask people at the end of
these interviews what bringsyou hope, but I feel like your
work is just bringing plenty ofhope.
I don't know if there'sanything you want to add, but
when we find things that areworking, I think that's
inherently energizing andinstilling of hope.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (01:00:22):
I think that's a huge factor in this,
because when somebody has a verycomplex history of serious
trauma, even a small shiftwithin a session can give hope,
and so repeated sessions, evenwith small shifts, are giving
hope for eventual change.
(01:00:44):
That's really experienced as achange in capacity for a sense
of well-being, for happiness,for joy in life.
So I think seeing the resultsof the sessions, hearing from
people who've told me differentparts of the world what a
(01:01:05):
difference it's made, that giveshope for continuing um ways of
approaching trauma and andtaking healing from the adverse
effects of it.
Lisa Danylchuk (01:01:36):
At the end of our in-person training in Boston
, there was just this feeling inthe room and everyone was.
You know, it was a veryregulated feeling and sometimes,
with trauma processing, wedon't always wrap up in that
place.
Sometimes there's a sense of,oh, I got to sleep on this or oh
, I really got to go back totherapy with that, and there was
very much a sense of connectionand appreciation and the things
(01:01:56):
I think most of us want in life, right, Just to feel connected
to each other, regulated witheach other.
I think we can all use more ofthat these days.
Dr. Frank Corrigan (01:02:04):
Yeah.
Lisa Danylchuk (01:02:06):
Well, I want to thank you for your work, for
your dedication over the yearsto creating this model, to
sharing it with us.
I know it's a lot of work inthe background and in the
foreground, so I want to justappreciate and celebrate you, Dr
.
Frank Corrigan, for being hereand sharing all this with us.
(01:02:46):
Thanks for coming on the show!
Dr. Frank Corrigan (01:02:47):
Thank you for having me.
Thank you.
Lisa Danylchuk (01:02:48):
Thanks so much for listening.
My hope is that you walk awayfrom these episodes feeling
supported and like you have aplace to come to find the hope
and inspiration you need to takeyour next small step forward.
For more information andresources please visit
HowWeCanHeal.
com.
You'll find tons of helpfulresources There you'll and the
show notes for each show.
Thanks for your messages,feedback
and ideas about the podcast.
I love hearing from you and soappreciate your support.
There are lots of ways you cansupport the show and I'm
grateful for every little bit oflove you share.
If you love the show, pleaseleave us a review on Apple
(01:03:09):
Spotify, Audible wherever youget your podcasts.
You can always visithowwecanhealcom backslash
podcast to share yourhowwecanhealcom/ ideas as well.
Before we wrap, I want to beclear that this podcast isn't
offering any prescriptions.
It's not advice or any kind ofdiagnosis.
Your decisions are in yourhands and we encourage you to
(01:03:31):
consult with any healthcareprofessionals you may need to
support you through your uniquepath of healing.
In addition, everyone's opinionon this show is their own and
opinions can change right.
Guests share their thoughts,not that of the host or sponsors
.
I'd also like to send a hugethanks to everyone who helps
(01:03:51):
support this podcast, directlyand indirectly.
Alex, thanks for taking care ofthe babe and the fur babies
while I record.
Lastly, I'd like to give ashout out to my big brother,
Matt, who passed away in 2002.
He wrote this music and itmakes my heart so happy to share
it with you here.
Thank you.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.