June 5, 2023 • 33 mins
Have you been thinking you need to polish up your performance management process or maybe you need to implement one for the first time? Either way you are going to be equipped with great information and pointers on what it takes to have an effective performance managment process at your company as we talk with performance managment expert Kay Nadel.
Today, HR Problem Solvers’ guest is Kay Nadel who has 15+ years experience in designing and facilitating leadership training and has had the pleasure of starting human resources and talent development divisions within several companies. Kay has a passion for coaching new managers and leaders to grow themselves and their teams as well as anyone that wants to explore their strengths and navigate the transitions in their careers. As a certified Gallup Strengths Coach, she believes if we look at our strengths and what we naturally have within us, we can solve any problem that stands in the way of meeting our goals.
Your HR Problem Solver host is Mark Mitford, a strategic HR leader who is business and HR focused. Mark is a management team advisor with 20+ years working as an HR executive in mid-size to Fortune 50 companies. He brings in depth, hands on experience successfully leading and advising company and business leaders through all life cycle stages. Mark is viewed as a key advisor to C-Level Executives and has strengths in Improving Company Culture, Performance Management, Compensation Benchmarking, Employee Engagement, Talent Management, Leadership Development, Coaching, Succession Planning and Mergers and Acquisitions.
During his career, Mark has successfully held HR executive positions in companies such as PepsiCo, Ericsson, Nortel, Telmar, Texas Instruments and Safeco. Mark has also worked for private equity backed organizations, S Corporations, and publicly traded firms and has lived and worked extensively overseas. He has led several Enterprise wide transformations including Cultural Change and IT transformational change at Fortune 500 companies. He holds two Masters’ degrees, one in Organizational Psychology, and an MBA in Strategy and International Management.
In 2013, Mark transitioned from a Corporate HR career to start his own HR Strategic consulting company, HR Catalyst Consulting with the goal of helping small to mid-market companies in growth or change and in need of Human Capital leadership to drive their continued growth and success. You can reach us through our website – hrcatalystconsulting.com
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hello to everybody.
Just good to see you today andGreat.
Uh, we're looking forward to agreat conversation with a, uh,
professional colleague that'sbased in the Houston, Texas area
K Natal.
So, Kay, I'd love to be able tostart out with you telling us a
little bit about what do you doprofessionally.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Hi, mark.
Great to be here.
Thank you so much for theinvitation.
Um, yeah, so professionally Iwork in the talent management
space, so predominantly lookingafter performance management,
succession planning, careerprogression or talent mobility
as it's now, now dubbed.
So that's kind of where I'vebeen for as well as learning and
development.
Um, been there for the last 10or so years, and prior to that
(00:42):
was part of hr, doing all HRbusiness partner kind of work.
Um, so have a good view of many,many things including
performance management.
So this is an exciting topic.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Okay, that's great.
Wow.
So I've got a That's wonderful.
I've got such a subject matterexpert in front of me here.
So, so how, just outtacuriosity, Kate, how did you
decide, because you become alittle more focused on
performance management, what waskind of that driving force to
get you to, what was thatintrigue or excitement to you to
get you started in performancemanagement as that focus area
(01:15):
for you?
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Actually, it's really interesting because performance
management has always beensomething that I've been
interested in, even when I wasat, um, university or college.
Uh, just the topic alwaysinterests me.
How do we get better asindividuals?
How do we improve and how doesthat have an impact on the
business?
So it's always been interestingand when, you know, you go into
(01:38):
the work environment and you seeperformance management in action
, um, especially in the earlieryears before it's changing, it
wasn't exactly how I hadanticipated it would be lots of
individuals that don'tparticularly like it and don't
wanna do it.
,, all you hear isthat's time consuming.
(01:59):
I'm like, all right,.
So I got a lot of that.
And, um, I think when I movedinto learning and development
and started to actually reallyconcentrate on learning, did I
really understand the, theimportance of performance
management, um, and how it kindof links into career growth and
all those pieces.
Um, so it's really become afocus point.
(02:20):
It's really important.
Whenever I'm in talentmanagement, it's the first piece
that we start with becauseeverything else is hinged on it.
So, um, that's kind of why it's,it's just really important and
how I've kind of progressed thatway.
It's interesting how time tells.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Oh, that's fascinating.
That's fascinating.
So when you think about it, sofor anybody in the audience that
really doesn't have a gooddefinition for performance
management, how would you, foran, if you were going to be
looking at a client opportunityand talking to them about
performance management, howwould you define performance
management for those in ouraudience?
(02:57):
Just that they can get a really,a professional definition of
that.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
I'm not quite sure about professional definition,
but I'll give you a plain andsimple definition of what I
think it is that works too.
Performance, performancemanagement.
Individuals often just thinkit's performance reviews and the
annual review, and that's theextent of performance
management, but it, it's not,that's just a small piece of it.
I think performance managementis a cluster of functions that
(03:24):
we do to grow and develop ouremployees in the business.
It can consist of many things,continuous feedback, regular
one-on-one conversations,coaching, goal setting,
clarification of expectations,it's career growth.
It's all these pieces that wecall performance management.
And whether your company choosesto do an annual review or not,
(03:45):
that's just one small piece ofit.
Um, it's actually multiplepieces that we do over a course
of a year throughout anemployee's journey.
So definition of performancemanagement.
There are multiple pieces thatconsist of performance
management that you need to bethinking of as you go forward.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Right.
Oh, that's great.
And so it really, fororganizations that you haven't
worked with that are, excuse me,but ha organizations that
actually haven't done thisbefore because it has so many
facets to it.
Where where do you recommend asa good starting point in
actually starting this journey,that performance management type
(04:24):
of process?
Speaker 2 (04:26):
I think the best place to kind of start is with
our, your regular one-on-ones.
Those are the start of manyconversations.
So building your managers tohave a regular cadence, um,
getting your employees involved,having them be empowered to
drive and, and, and have thoseconversations with managers, I
think is the first step.
(04:48):
Um, once you've kind of builtthe cadence and they're having
these conversations, it becomeseasier to do feedback, it
becomes easier to do coaching,it becomes easier to talk about
goals.
Um, it just becomes easier asthe, as the conversations
progress, it becomes easier.
So I think that's the best placeto start, if you've have, the
(05:10):
other thing is if you haven'thad any managers that do
one-on-ones or have never doneone-on-ones, then you might
wanna start with some training.
So getting managers what's bestpractice, what is, what does a
one-on-one look like?
How do they have thoseconversations?
Right?
That's kinda where I wouldstart.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Okay.
That's great.
So those one-on-oneconversations since you say are
so critical.
What is, um, so if you, I wouldassume you do quite a bit of
training in this area.
What would you say the key thingis that most managers actually
don't get right about doingone-on-one conversations with
their employees.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
They don't have them the first thing.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
There you go.
That's probably helpful if youstart doing them, right,?
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Yeah.
That's the first thing is that Ifound managers that don't do
them.
That's the first, um, littlehiccup.
And my, my advice to newmanagers is always just put it
on the calendar, set up aregular cadence and stick to it
what you discuss, you'll getbetter at.
Right.
You know, there are things thatyou can do, but just, just get
(06:12):
it on the calendar first.
Get it on a regular cadence, getthat moving and don't ever
cancel.
Right.
Unless you absolutely have to.
Um, and that way you can showindividuals that you're
dedicated, you, it's their timemm-hmm.
that you're notgoing to move them off the
schedule because something,something else has come up that
(06:32):
you need to take care of.
Or if you do that, you explain,I'm gonna move it for this week
and it's, and it's tomorrowinstead of today.
But I think that's the firstthing that managers really need
to do is build up their cadenceand then they can start talking
about start simple.
I know managers just generallytalk about work, but start
there.
Right?
Uh, but then start to l buildrelationships, listen, ask about
(06:54):
developmental, um, opportunitiesthat individuals are interested
in.
You know, where are theirstrengths, where are their
weaknesses?
Just, just getting started Ithink is, is a crucial step that
managers take and they justdon't, because they're either
scared or they feel like it'snot something that is valuable
to them and their time.
Mm-hmm.
, but it really is.
So it's to, to get them there.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
What you mentioned too, uh, while you're, while you
were saying that I was thinking,so you mentioned cadence is
really important in keeping thatcadence.
So what do you recommend is that, um, every two weeks, every
month, what do you recommend for, uh, new, new organizations
you're working with?
What do you recommend thatcadences to be in an ideal
situation?
Speaker 2 (07:37):
depends.
, it depends on themanager, but, you know, I have
found weekly is good though I doknow that, ma, we sometimes we
have teams of managers that havemore than more individuals that
they could possibly fit in in aweek.
So it becomes really difficultfor them to have regular
one-on-one conversations.
So I tend to say every week,every second week, it would be
(08:01):
great, right?
If you have an individual whois, you know, senior that
perhaps doesn't need a check-inevery week, maybe make them
every third week or so mm-hmm.
so that, um,you're still touching base with
them, but they are a little moresenior.
You don't need to be ahandholding too much, but new
hires, you have to meet withthem every week, maybe even
every day.
(08:21):
Definitely has to be, be somesort of regular occurrence with
new hires, individuals that arenew to the role, new to your
team, they need to be on a moreregular cadence.
Individuals that are struggling,obviously more regular.
So I'd say stick to about a week, uh, maybe every second week.
Mm-hmm.
, depending on howbig your team is, but at least
once a month.
(08:42):
But no, no less than that.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Right.
I love what you said there too,around with new employees, that
new hires, the, the morefrequent, the better with new
hires.
And that's something that in thework that I do, um, that's
something we definitely, we, we,we, we look at that onboarding
period as a 12 week period andmaking sure that there's more
(09:04):
frequency of meetings up front,and that's just so highly
important.
So I'm glad you kind of refirmthat.
So, um, how about, you know,companies that are middle market
size, you know, let's say lowermiddle market to middle market
size companies, thousandemployees, 500 employees.
In your experience with workingwith those size companies, how
(09:26):
well do they do performancemanagement?
All those facets that you'vedescribed?
Speaker 2 (09:32):
I actually don't think it has to do with the, the
size of the company.
Okay.
I think it has to do with the,the process that you've chosen.
So I've given you a couple ofexamples.
I think it really depends on aleadership.
How vested are your leaderswithin a feedback culture with
(09:53):
driving performance management?
They need to walk the talk.
They need to do thoseperformance management tools.
Mm-hmm.
, they can't besitting on the side, not doing
their one-on-ones.
Um, it matters like theirmanagers see it, their, uh,
individuals, employees see it ifthey're not doing it, not
practicing it.
So it's really important thatleaders do it.
(10:14):
And then making sure that yourmanagers and employees are
vested.
I think that's really important.
Whether you're a largeorganization, small
organization, middle, it doesn'tmatter.
If you have those components,um, good process leaders are
ready to go, then it'll be asuccessful process.
Right.
So I think it doesn't matterabout the size, just whether you
(10:36):
have the right components.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Okay.
That's great.
And I'd also say, what aboutthe, how do you feel, because
you have been, you know, beendoing this for, for a number of
years, how do you feel aroundthat?
It's gotta be, uh, you know, a,a question around does it have
to be leadership driven or doesit have to be HR driven?
What is your opinion there?
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Actually, I believe that everyone owns it.
So there's just certain piecesof it.
HR is generally the individualswho, who make sure it happens,
right?
Gets it in place, puts thetraining in place.
Leaders are the ones thatsupport it.
Managers are the ones thatexecute it, but ultimately I
think the employees drive it.
They are the individuals thatseek feedback.
(11:20):
They are the individuals thatwant understanding of their
goals, career growth, um mm-hmm.
.
So I think it's led a lot byemployees.
And I know that that's notcommon, but it needs to be like,
how do you get managers andemployees to drive the process
together?
Right.
And that, I think, is reallyimportant because if you're both
(11:40):
vested in it, then you'll bothmake sure that it happens.
And I think that employeesreally wanna be involved.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Yeah.
No, that's great that you saythat too.
And I think to me in a, in a, inan organization now that
employees, I, I always, I, Ithink about the, you know, the
employees in charge of theircareer and it's really up to
them that, you know, if they'rewaiting for their manager who
maybe manages 10 people to runtheir career, that Yeah.
(12:10):
You know, it, it's like, yeah,you know, you're one employee,
the manager may have fiveemployees, 10, 15 employees,
they, they that work for them.
You know, I, I always thinkabout that too, that I'm, you
know, to your kind of refiringthat I think the employee really
needs to drive that conversationand drive where their career's
going.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Really.
They do.
And, and also just, you know,and I know it's scary and that's
part of where learning comesinto it, right?
Is that, and showing individualswhat it looks like.
But you know, you need to beable to ask for feedback.
What does that look like?
Like, how do I get better?
Don't wait for someone else totell you what to do.
Like, that's, that's the onething, it's like your manager
(12:48):
could tell you, but you might bewaiting for a while, like you
said, right?
15 employees, you might be, youknow, only schedule every one
every month, um, ask, look atyour career, get questions
going, you're not sure.
Um, you know, put all thosepieces together.
So I think it's really importantthat we empower our employees to
do that.
The more information they have,the more documentation they
(13:11):
have, the better.
And Right.
It takes.
And it alleviates the managertoo.
I mean, I think managers havejust been, you know, so it's
you, it's you, you need tomanage it, you do it, you push
it.
But I'm like, you don't have towork so hard.
have, have your peopledo some stuff, right?
Have them write the goals, comeback, you know, is this what you
(13:33):
want?
Let's talk about it.
Let's, let's see how this worksfor the business.
You know, you don't have to workso hard as a manager, just get
people vested in, in, in theprocess with you.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
That is so great.
I love that.
I love what you just said theretoo, that, yeah, at the end of
the day, who actually owns yourcareer?
Is that your boss or is ityourself?
So, yeah, when it gets down tocadence, you talked about
earlier about cadence ofone-on-ones.
What about a formal review wherethere's actually gonna be
written documentation andassessment?
(14:04):
Um, I know a lot of companies,and sometimes you cringe when
you hear annually, but what isyour recommendation annually,
semi-annually, quarterly?
What kind of recommendation doyou have around the cadence of
actually doing a formal type ofreview with an employee?
Speaker 2 (14:20):
I think it depends on the organization, quite
honestly.
Like sometimes, uh, an annualreview might work for them.
Mm-hmm.
, sometimessemi-annually, sometimes only
once.
And, but I've also been inorganizations where you don't
have a performance review.
It is a summary of conversationsthat you've had over the last
year.
Right.
So though it's still formal, butit's more of a wrap up that you
(14:43):
have once a year.
So that shouldn't really be asformal.
It's just a split.
It's an extra conversation thatwe say, yay, we got to a point
of this year.
Let's sum up what we, wherewe're at and let's get ready
for, for the next, um, portionof, of the journey, I suppose.
So I think it really depends onthe organization, what works for
them.
(15:04):
Uh, it depends what fits.
Like sometimes annually fits forpeople.
Sometimes it dozens.
I've worked with many salesorganizations where they cringe
if it's at the end of the year,cuz that's when they, they're
wrapping up their lost sales andmm-hmm.
, I'm like, I don'twanna get measured now
sure.
I'm still getting deals in.
Um, you know, so it doesn't workfor them.
(15:24):
Uh, so what, you know, you gottakind of figure out what works,
what works the best and howformal you wanna make it.
How maybe it's semi if you'redoing quarterly, maybe it's not
as formal until you have a, afinal at the end of the year.
Right.
So I think it, it just reallydepends on the company.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
No, that, that's, that's, that's great to hear.
So, um, it's interesting toobecause when, uh, in, in the
work that, uh, you know, uh,that my organization does, it's
funny because I always thinkthat employees managers who are
gonna give an employee a reallynegative review, they typically
put those last and then you askthem, why do you put those last?
(16:02):
Well, I really haven't told themthat they've been doing a bad
job all year or the last sixmonths, and then I just cringe.
Right.
And I'm sure you've seen thatall the time.
Well, if you were doing reviewslike you recommend, it wouldn't
be a surprise.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
That's right.
I call them no surprises.
Like, you don't wanna, aperformance review should never,
if you're gonna, it should neverbe a surprise.
And that's why I hinge so muchon these one-on-one
conversations, because it shouldnever be a surprise.
Isn't that dreadful?
Like getting to a performancereview and like, and you get
told like, Hey, you weren'tdoing a good job for the last
(16:37):
year, six months.
You could have had all this timeto improve, to develop, to grow,
and you're only finding out ayear later.
Right.
How do you improve?
I think it's such a disserviceto employees to do that.
Mm-hmm.
.
So that's why having theseregular conversations where
individuals feel safe to sharefeedback.
Sure.
It's okay to tell someone.
(16:58):
It's actually easier totell someone about a small thing
when it happens, then bulking itall up until the end of the
year.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Right.
Oh, that's, that's so great tohear that too, because, and in
some cases it's actually adisservice to the employee
because if they don't havefeedback, I always say, you
know, employees can be verygood, but they're not psychic.
They may not know that they'redoing a bad job until you tell
them and give them very specificfeedback about what they're not
(17:26):
doing correctly.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
Yeah.
And I've never had anyone say,you know, oh gosh, that was
terrible feedback.
They're always like, oh, Ididn't know.
Or, you know what, so true.
I was kind of, I wasn't sure.
So thanks for pointing it out.
Um, so it's, it's never gone asterribly as a manager's, um,
predicted would go, it's justthat we just don't do it
(17:47):
regularly.
Right.
And that, I think that's, that'swhy we should be having these
regular conversations.
You don't, you don't step onto atennis court and just assume
that you can play.
You need to practice.
So the same goes with feedbackand, and regular conversations.
You've gotta have them becauseit builds muscle and you get
better at it.
And then you won't have thosedifficult end of year
(18:09):
conversations cuz it's anon-event.
No surprise.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Right.
Oh yeah, that's perfect.
So, so do you have, um, like doyou think that performance
management, is it a system, isit a process?
Is it both?
What are your thoughts there?
I
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Suppose it could be both though.
It's, which comes first?
Mm-hmm.
, I think is, isthe fir the, the question.
And I would say the processcomes first because performance
management, you can do without asystem.
Google Docs, OneNote, as long asyou're keeping track, everyone
has access to it and you'rehaving meaningful conversations,
I think that's more importantthan the system.
(18:50):
What happens with the system issometimes you buy it and it it,
it's not flexible enough foryour process or it doesn't, or
it hinders you from developingyour pro your performance
management strategy further thanwhat it is today.
So I think be careful and waryof buying a system to implement
performance management.
(19:11):
Right?
Cause that's, that limits youand you need to be, ha you need
to be flexible.
Mm-hmm.
, it changes, yourbusiness changes.
Um, you can't buy a system thatworks today, that doesn't,
that's, you can't changetomorrow.
Or you buy a system that doesonly annual reviews and there's
no, no one-on-one conversationsthat you can record.
Then you have this bifurcatedprocess and it, it just doesn't
(19:33):
work for individuals, managersand employees want it to be
easy.
Mm-hmm.
, everything's easythese days.
We have app for everything.
So it needs to be simple.
I think, you know, as HRindividuals, if we're not
thinking about keeping itsimple, then we are hurting
ourselves about getting it towork within
Speaker 1 (19:51):
The
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Organization.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Yeah.
That is so true.
That's so true.
Well, you know what, we're gonnatake a short break, Kay.
So thank you so much.
We're gonna take a short breakand then we'll be back in a
couple of minutes just to cocontinue the conversation with,
uh, with, uh, the greatconversation we're having with K
Natal.
Thanks so much.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
You want to grow your business, but people issues are
getting in the way.
Managing the people side of yourbusiness is complex and can feel
overwhelming.
Does this sound familiar at hrCatalyst People strategy is our
business.
We create and implement a peoplestrategy with you, so you can
give back to growing yourbusiness.
(20:28):
HR Catalyst was founded in 2013with the goal of bringing the
best in class HR practices tosmall and middle market
companies.
We are your outsourced strategicpeople experts.
We help you solve the peopleissues in your business that are
slowing you down.
If you have HR concerns, you canschedule a complimentary call on
ourwebsite@hrcatalystconsulting.com.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Okay.
And we are gonna start back withour conversation with K Natal
and, uh, Kay, thank you so muchfor the conversation we've had
thus far about halfway throughour, uh, our chat today.
And so what I wanted to do isask you next, if you were again,
uh, if, if anybody who'slistening to this podcast or
watching it, if they have notdone anything regarding
(21:13):
performance management before,what would you recommend as a a
subject matter expert in thisarea?
What would you recommend asthree to five things that are
the key things they need toinclude in a performance
management process for it to besuccessful?
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Great.
I think that's, that's, that'sawesome.
And I think we've already kindof been speaking about it.
If you haven't noticed, I'mone-on-ones is definitely one of
the things you need to get inplace.
one-on-one conversationsare key.
Uh, you gotta put those inplace.
Um, feedback, whether you'reusing a system to collect
feedback from individuals or,you know, making sure that
(21:50):
individuals feel comfortableputting feedback into place or
discussing feedback with peersand managers alike.
That I think is, is very, veryimportant.
And then I think it's justtaking away the, the scariness
of performance management is,uh, you know, letting
individuals know that they'reempowered to make these choices.
(22:10):
They're empowered to talk aboutit.
They don't have to wait fortheir managers.
So I think communication is bigtoo.
I think it's, if you're talkingabout it once a year, it's in
one ear and out the other.
Um, it needs to be a constantthing.
So, uh, if you're in HR oryou're a leader, you need to be
talking about what regularconversations with individuals
about, you know, setting thosegoals, making sure that
(22:32):
individuals close goals out.
I think that's another thing isthat managers feel like goals
are once a year.
Uh, things, they're notthey can be if that's, that's,
there's no changes and that'swhat you're doing.
But ultimately business changesand, you know, things get put on
our plate, taken off our plate.
Mm-hmm.
and goals need tochange all the time.
So, uh, as a leader, you need tomake sure that individuals
(22:54):
understand that, that they needto update their, their goals and
Right.
Make sure they're driving in thedirection that you want them to
be driving to.
Right.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
That's great.
I think those
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Are important things.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
That's great.
No, thanks for that.
So, so what about if a process,you get the process going, of
course there's a lot ofexcitement about getting this
started.
What, what happens?
And, and I'm sure you found itin your experience.
So what happens at that processgets derailed or starts failing?
How, what are some things youcan recommend that an
(23:25):
organization do to get it backon track and get it back to
where it needs to be?
Speaker 2 (23:30):
I think first things first is to ask what happened.
Like, how is it, how, why is itcoming off the rails?
like what, what isreally happening?
I think sometimes we're scared,you know, or we think we know.
Sometimes we're like, oh yeah,I've done, I've seen this happen
before at a prior organizationor company.
And sometimes it just isn't.
So we need to just ask, youknow, what, what is going on?
(23:53):
Is it a subsection of a businessthat's coming off the rails?
Is it everybody?
Um, you know, is it a certainpiece of a, uh, the process
that's not working?
Uh, is it the system that's notworking?
Like we really need to dig intowhat's not working and then you
can put in a solution.
I think that's, that's reallyimportant.
And the way that you would dothat is collect feedback, speak
(24:14):
to managers, speak to leaders,speak to employees, find out
what's not going well and whatthey don't like.
So that's the best way.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Sure.
That's great.
That's great.
I wanted to run with somethingyou just said too, and you said
a little bit earlier in ourconversation before we took our
break.
So do you recommend that withall the systems and apps that
are out there, do you recommendright up front that the
organization needs to eitherpurchase a specialty software
(24:44):
for this or use, if they'reusing a, uh, an H R E S, you
know, HR information systemplatform that has performance
management module in it, do yourecommend that everything be
embedded into a tool, um, asoftware tool that they have a
standalone or are using an H R IS system?
What are your thoughts there?
Speaker 2 (25:05):
No, don't go by a system.
Okay.
Without understanding yourprocess first.
Um, and I think, you know, butalso people also need to explore
what they have.
So if you have a standing H R IS system, you know, get with a
vendor, see what it looks likeand how it works mm-hmm.
, right.
Um, and where you can makechanges, because I think that's
important because sometimes, youknow, it's a standard.
(25:29):
You only have an annual review.
This is what it looks like andthis is the standard process.
Um, ask what's coming down the,the roadmap.
Like are they including regularone-on-one conversations?
Is that being integrated intoyour performance reviews?
How do they integrate goals?
So I think there's a lot ofquestions that you should be
asking if you have a currentvendor, um, which direction are
(25:50):
they taking performancemanagement.
Maybe it's just a side module.
And then you may wanna thenthink about, is this what you
wanna do for performancemanagement or should you
consider a different system or adifferent app that you may use
for performance management orany other talent management, uh,
pieces.
So I think there's a lot toconsider when you look at
systems.
(26:11):
You don't just go out and buyone.
Uh, make sure that it works foryou now and into the future.
And then if you currently haveone, take a look at what it's
got and how much can you change.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Right.
Okay.
That's great.
So if a business owner has beenwatching this podcast and
they're still, they haven't,they don't do performance
management currently, they hathey're still not convinced.
Um, what are three reasons theyneed to get started with this?
You know, and I of course, Idon't know when people are gonna
watch this, but they need to getstarted within the next, you
(26:43):
know, one or one to two monthsat least start moving in that
direction.
What are three compellingreasons you would say that a
business leader really needs tostart putting this as a priority
for their business?
Speaker 2 (26:55):
I think, you know, there are many articles out
there that will tell you allkinds of things.
And I think the obvious areengagements.
Your individuals will beengaged, retention, uptick, and
culture.
I think those are really, reallyimportant.
But I think if you are a leaderthat really truly believes in
people and developing peoplebecause people are the backbone
(27:16):
of your organization, then Ithink you really need a look at
performance management.
Performance management is justone of those pieces.
Without it, people don't knowwhich direction they're rowing
in.
They don't know whether they'redoing well or not.
They don't know whether theyhave options at your
organization.
So with a performance managementsystem, if you're having the
(27:38):
right conversations, thenindividuals know they're guided,
they're motivated to be there,they want to help you drive,
they want to learn, they want toput what they're learning into
practice, they want to grow withyou.
Um, so I think all the problemsthat we've been having with
individuals leaving because ofcareer opportunities means
(27:59):
growth opportunities.
If we're not talking about it,if we're not sharing what we are
good at and what you're not goodat and and moving individuals in
the direction that they'resupposed to be going, then it's
only a detriment in the longrun.
So the best start now, it's nothard to get started.
Mm-hmm.
, it grows fromthere.
(28:19):
It's a process, but the best wayis just to get started, get your
managers talking, get youremployees talking, um, capture
those, that information and thenmove from there.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
Right.
Oh, that's awesome.
Good for you.
Now that, that's a really good,if that's a, that's a really, I
don't wanna say a sales pitchcuz it's not a sales pitch, but
it's really, it, it's really forimproving.
There's so many facets aboutthis that is really about, like
you said, employee engagementand employee engagement in most
organizations is, is quite lowfor many reasons.
(28:53):
So even just getting employeeengagement in those and having
those conversations withemployees, we have to remember
that employees are people andhaving that conversation with
those employees is, is gonna behuge.
So, um, I'm gonna stop rightthere.
Kay.
But thank you so much.
I'm gonna ask you gonna moveover to a couple of fun things I
want to ask you about, but thankyou so much.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
No problem.
Thank you.
Great questions.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
Yeah, they, they're, so thank you so much for your,
uh, just the really goodinsights you've shared today.
So, um, so we can, we're justgonna move over a couple of
quick, uh, quit hitting, uh,quick hitting fun questions for
you.
So what are three books you did,they don't have to be on this
topic, but they could be onother business related topics,
but what are three books youwould recommend that are that,
(29:36):
that are must read for, um,people in our audience today?
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Um, I have just finished Impact Players by Liz
Weisman.
So Okay.
That clearly performancemanagement,, who are your
, who are your impact players?
Um, I think is really good.
I do like the First 90 Days,which is by Michael Watkins.
So I think if you're lookingeither starting a new job or
starting to look at performancemanagement, um, in terms of
(30:02):
growing new hires, then I thinkthe first 90 days is, is a
really good book to go with.
And then I always like, uh, derelead by Brene Brown.
So anything that that is openingabout and just funny enough, she
says, you know, unclear isunkind.
So talking about performancemanagement, if you're not clear,
you're being unkind.
So Sure.
Um, go ahead and take a look atthose are my, my three that I,
(30:24):
that I really like.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
Oh, that's great.
That's great.
I'm not sure if you're a podcastlistener, but if you are, what
are some, what are, what are acouple, uh, current, uh, authors
that you enjoy listening totheir podcasts?
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Renee Brown's one of them, but there are a couple of
others.
Like, uh, brown Table Talk isreally awesome if you haven't,
um, done that.
It's with, um, Madam Mallek andDC Marshall, and they're,
they're talking about awesomecontent about breaking down the
challenges for women of colorthat they face in the workplace
and how providing practicaltips.
So that's a great, great talk.
(30:57):
If you haven't, if you haven't,um, listened to that.
Converging Conversations is alsogreat, uh, brings together
people on many different topics.
So that's, that's also a, a goodone to listen to.
Um, I also like, uh, work Lifewith Adam Grant just because he
talks about all kinds of com allkinds of topics.
Sometimes it's, uh, you know,work related, mostly work
(31:17):
related, and sometimes it's notmm-hmm.
.
So I like it a good mix.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Oh, that's great.
So you're, you're a very wor,very well versed podcast
listener, that's for sure.
You've got some great ideasthere and some of the, some of
the authors I have not heard of,so I've gotta go check those out
too, so.
Awesome.
Um, last question for you.
So given where you are today,what would you tell, what, what
advice would you give to your 16year old self?
Speaker 2 (31:43):
I'd say stay the course.
It's a fun and exciting ride.
And when you get to college andthey say you're gonna do hr,
don't go, what is that?
It's all good.
.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
Oh, that is, it's
Speaker 2 (31:55):
Fun and exciting.
So funny.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
That is great.
Stay the course.
I love that.
So that is awesome.
So it's, uh, yeah, that is, thatis great.
Well, I have truly enjoyed theconversation today.
Kay.
So we're, how can people, ifthey're interested in having
further conversations with you,how can people find you online?
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Uh, LinkedIn.
Just reach out on LinkedIn andwe can chat.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
All righty.
So it's K and it's Natal, soit's N A D A L.
So just so folks, yeah.
So that's great.
So thank you so much K that it'sbeen a, a really insightful
conversation today.
And, um, I hope everybody wholistened to this got some really
good nuggets because, uh, Kayshared a lot of great insights
(32:38):
today about performancemanagement and just the insights
and just the facets ofperformance management because
it is a process and it'ssomething that's somewhat of a
cycle.
And so if you don't do it now,if you haven't done it before, I
hope you've heard a lot ofcompelling reasons today to get
started sooner than later.
So again, thank you so much forour audience.
Thank you Kay, for theopportunity to get a chance to
(33:01):
chat with you today and we'lllook forward to, uh, catching up
with our audience in a couple ofmonths.
Thanks so much.
Bye-bye.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Okay.
Thanks so much, mark.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Bye-bye.
Bye.
Hello to everybody.
Just good to see you today andGreat.
Uh, we're looking forward to agreat conversation with a, uh,
professional colleague that'sbased in the Houston, Texas area
K Natal.
So, Kay, I'd love to be able tostart out with you telling us a
little bit about what do you doprofessionally.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Hi, mark.
Great to be here.
Thank you so much for theinvitation.
Um, yeah, so professionally Iwork in the talent management
space, so predominantly lookingafter performance management,
succession planning, careerprogression or talent mobility
as it's now, now dubbed.
So that's kind of where I'vebeen for as well as learning and
development.
Um, been there for the last 10or so years, and prior to that
(00:42):
was part of hr, doing all HRbusiness partner kind of work.
Um, so have a good view of many,many things including
performance management.
So this is an exciting topic.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Okay, that's great.
Wow.
So I've got a That's wonderful.
I've got such a subject matterexpert in front of me here.
So, so how, just outtacuriosity, Kate, how did you
decide, because you become alittle more focused on
performance management, what waskind of that driving force to
get you to, what was thatintrigue or excitement to you to
get you started in performancemanagement as that focus area
(01:15):
for you?
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Actually, it's really interesting because performance
management has always beensomething that I've been
interested in, even when I wasat, um, university or college.
Uh, just the topic alwaysinterests me.
How do we get better asindividuals?
How do we improve and how doesthat have an impact on the
business?
So it's always been interestingand when, you know, you go into
(01:38):
the work environment and you seeperformance management in action
, um, especially in the earlieryears before it's changing, it
wasn't exactly how I hadanticipated it would be lots of
individuals that don'tparticularly like it and don't
wanna do it.
(01:59):
I'm like, all right,
So I got a lot of that.
And, um, I think when I movedinto learning and development
and started to actually reallyconcentrate on learning, did I
really understand the, theimportance of performance
management, um, and how it kindof links into career growth and
all those pieces.
Um, so it's really become afocus point.
(02:20):
It's really important.
Whenever I'm in talentmanagement, it's the first piece
that we start with becauseeverything else is hinged on it.
So, um, that's kind of why it's,it's just really important and
how I've kind of progressed thatway.
It's interesting how time tells.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Oh, that's fascinating.
That's fascinating.
So when you think about it, sofor anybody in the audience that
really doesn't have a gooddefinition for performance
management, how would you, foran, if you were going to be
looking at a client opportunityand talking to them about
performance management, howwould you define performance
management for those in ouraudience?
(02:57):
Just that they can get a really,a professional definition of
that.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
I'm not quite sure about professional definition,
but I'll give you a plain andsimple definition of what I
think it is that works too.
Performance
Individuals often just thinkit's performance reviews and the
annual review, and that's theextent of performance
management, but it, it's not,that's just a small piece of it.
I think performance managementis a cluster of functions that
(03:24):
we do to grow and develop ouremployees in the business.
It can consist of many things,continuous feedback, regular
one-on-one conversations,coaching, goal setting,
clarification of expectations,it's career growth.
It's all these pieces that wecall performance management.
And whether your company choosesto do an annual review or not,
(03:45):
that's just one small piece ofit.
Um, it's actually multiplepieces that we do over a course
of a year throughout anemployee's journey.
So definition of performancemanagement.
There are multiple pieces thatconsist of performance
management that you need to bethinking of as you go forward.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Right.
Oh, that's great.
And so it really, fororganizations that you haven't
worked with that are, excuse me,but ha organizations that
actually haven't done thisbefore because it has so many
facets to it.
Where where do you recommend asa good starting point in
actually starting this journey,that performance management type
(04:24):
of process?
Speaker 2 (04:26):
I think the best place to kind of start is with
our, your regular one-on-ones.
Those are the start of manyconversations.
So building your managers tohave a regular cadence, um,
getting your employees involved,having them be empowered to
drive and, and, and have thoseconversations with managers, I
think is the first step.
(04:48):
Um, once you've kind of builtthe cadence and they're having
these conversations, it becomeseasier to do feedback, it
becomes easier to do coaching,it becomes easier to talk about
goals.
Um, it just becomes easier asthe, as the conversations
progress, it becomes easier.
So I think that's the best placeto start, if you've have, the
(05:10):
other thing is if you haven'thad any managers that do
one-on-ones or have never doneone-on-ones, then you might
wanna start with some training.
So getting managers what's bestpractice, what is, what does a
one-on-one look like?
How do they have thoseconversations?
Right?
That's kinda where I wouldstart.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Okay.
That's great.
So those one-on-oneconversations since you say are
so critical.
What is, um, so if you, I wouldassume you do quite a bit of
training in this area.
What would you say the key thingis that most managers actually
don't get right about doingone-on-one conversations with
their employees.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
They don't have them the first thing.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
There you go.
That's probably helpful if youstart doing them, right,
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Yeah.
That's the first thing is that Ifound managers that don't do
them.
That's the first, um, littlehiccup.
And my, my advice to newmanagers is always just put it
on the calendar, set up aregular cadence and stick to it
what you discuss, you'll getbetter at.
Right.
You know, there are things thatyou can do, but just, just get
(06:12):
it on the calendar first.
Get it on a regular cadence, getthat moving and don't ever
cancel.
Right.
Unless you absolutely have to.
Um, and that way you can showindividuals that you're
dedicated, you, it's their timemm-hmm.
schedule because something,something else has come up that
(06:32):
you need to take care of.
Or if you do that, you explain,I'm gonna move it for this week
and it's, and it's tomorrowinstead of today.
But I think that's the firstthing that managers really need
to do is build up their cadenceand then they can start talking
about start simple.
I know managers just generallytalk about work, but start
there.
Right?
Uh, but then start to l buildrelationships, listen, ask about
(06:54):
developmental, um, opportunitiesthat individuals are interested
in.
You know, where are theirstrengths, where are their
weaknesses?
Just, just getting started Ithink is, is a crucial step that
managers take and they justdon't, because they're either
scared or they feel like it'snot something that is valuable
to them and their time.
Mm-hmm.
So it's to, to get them there.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
What you mentioned too, uh, while you're, while you
were saying that I was thinking,so you mentioned cadence is
really important in keeping thatcadence.
So what do you recommend is that, um, every two weeks, every
month, what do you recommend for, uh, new, new organizations
you're working with?
What do you recommend thatcadences to be in an ideal
situation?
Speaker 2 (07:37):
found weekly is good though I doknow that, ma, we sometimes we
have teams of managers that havemore than more individuals that
they could possibly fit in in aweek.
So it becomes really difficultfor them to have regular
one-on-one conversations.
So I tend to say every week,every second week, it would be
(08:01):
great, right?
If you have an individual whois, you know, senior that
perhaps doesn't need a check-inevery week, maybe make them
every third week or so mm-hmm.
them, but they are a little moresenior.
You don't need to be ahandholding too much, but new
hires, you have to meet withthem every week, maybe even
every day.
(08:21):
Definitely has to be, be somesort of regular occurrence with
new hires, individuals that arenew to the role, new to your
team, they need to be on a moreregular cadence.
Individuals that are struggling,obviously more regular.
So I'd say stick to about a week, uh, maybe every second week.
Mm-hmm.
once a month.
(08:42):
But no, no less than that.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Right.
I love what you said there too,around with new employees, that
new hires, the, the morefrequent, the better with new
hires.
And that's something that in thework that I do, um, that's
something we definitely, we, we,we, we look at that onboarding
period as a 12 week period andmaking sure that there's more
(09:04):
frequency of meetings up front,and that's just so highly
important.
So I'm glad you kind of refirmthat.
So, um, how about, you know,companies that are middle market
size, you know, let's say lowermiddle market to middle market
size companies, thousandemployees, 500 employees.
In your experience with workingwith those size companies, how
(09:26):
well do they do performancemanagement?
All those facets that you'vedescribed?
Speaker 2 (09:32):
I actually don't think it has to do with the, the
size of the company.
Okay.
I think it has to do with the,the process that you've chosen.
So I've given you a couple ofexamples.
I think it really depends on aleadership.
How vested are your leaderswithin a feedback culture with
(09:53):
driving performance management?
They need to walk the talk.
They need to do thoseperformance management tools.
Mm-hmm.
their one-on-ones.
Um, it matters like theirmanagers see it, their, uh,
individuals, employees see it ifthey're not doing it, not
practicing it.
So it's really important thatleaders do it.
(10:14):
And then making sure that yourmanagers and employees are
vested.
I think that's really important.
Whether you're a largeorganization, small
organization, middle, it doesn'tmatter.
If you have those components,um, good process leaders are
ready to go, then it'll be asuccessful process.
Right.
So I think it doesn't matterabout the size, just whether you
(10:36):
have the right components.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Okay.
That's great.
And I'd also say, what aboutthe, how do you feel, because
you have been, you know, beendoing this for, for a number of
years, how do you feel aroundthat?
It's gotta be, uh, you know, a,a question around does it have
to be leadership driven or doesit have to be HR driven?
What is your opinion there?
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Actually, I believe that everyone owns it.
So there's just certain piecesof it.
HR is generally the individualswho, who make sure it happens,
right?
Gets it in place, puts thetraining in place.
Leaders are the ones thatsupport it.
Managers are the ones thatexecute it, but ultimately I
think the employees drive it.
They are the individuals thatseek feedback.
(11:20):
They are the individuals thatwant understanding of their
goals, career growth, um mm-hmm.
So I think it's led a lot byemployees.
And I know that that's notcommon, but it needs to be like,
how do you get managers andemployees to drive the process
together?
Right.
And that, I think, is reallyimportant because if you're both
(11:40):
vested in it, then you'll bothmake sure that it happens.
And I think that employeesreally wanna be involved.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Yeah.
No, that's great that you saythat too.
And I think to me in a, in a, inan organization now that
employees, I, I always, I, Ithink about the, you know, the
employees in charge of theircareer and it's really up to
them that, you know, if they'rewaiting for their manager who
maybe manages 10 people to runtheir career, that Yeah.
(12:10):
You know, it, it's like, yeah,you know, you're one employee,
the manager may have fiveemployees, 10, 15 employees,
they, they that work for them.
You know, I, I always thinkabout that too, that I'm, you
know, to your kind of refiringthat I think the employee really
needs to drive that conversationand drive where their career's
going.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Really.
They do.
And, and also just, you know,and I know it's scary and that's
part of where learning comesinto it, right?
Is that, and showing individualswhat it looks like.
But you know, you need to beable to ask for feedback.
What does that look like?
Like, how do I get better?
Don't wait for someone else totell you what to do.
Like, that's, that's the onething, it's like your manager
(12:48):
could tell you, but you might bewaiting for a while, like you
said, right?
15 employees, you might be, youknow, only schedule every one
every month, um, ask, look atyour career, get questions
going, you're not sure.
Um, you know, put all thosepieces together.
So I think it's really importantthat we empower our employees to
do that.
The more information they have,the more documentation they
(13:11):
have, the better.
And Right.
It takes.
And it alleviates the managertoo.
I mean, I think managers havejust been, you know, so it's
you, it's you, you need tomanage it, you do it, you push
it.
But I'm like, you don't have towork so hard.
Have them write the goals, comeback, you know, is this what you
(13:33):
want?
Let's talk about it.
Let's, let's see how this worksfor the business.
You know, you don't have to workso hard as a manager, just get
people vested in, in, in theprocess with you.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
That is so great.
I love that.
I love what you just said theretoo, that, yeah, at the end of
the day, who actually owns yourcareer?
Is that your boss or is ityourself?
So, yeah, when it gets down tocadence, you talked about
earlier about cadence ofone-on-ones.
What about a formal review wherethere's actually gonna be
written documentation andassessment?
(14:04):
Um, I know a lot of companies,and sometimes you cringe when
you hear annually, but what isyour recommendation annually,
semi-annually, quarterly?
What kind of recommendation doyou have around the cadence of
actually doing a formal type ofreview with an employee?
Speaker 2 (14:20):
I think it depends on the organization, quite
honestly.
Like sometimes, uh, an annualreview might work for them.
Mm-hmm.
once.
And, but I've also been inorganizations where you don't
have a performance review.
It is a summary of conversationsthat you've had over the last
year.
Right.
So though it's still formal, butit's more of a wrap up that you
(14:43):
have once a year.
So that shouldn't really be asformal.
It's just a split.
It's an extra conversation thatwe say, yay, we got to a point
of this year.
Let's sum up what we, wherewe're at and let's get ready
for, for the next, um, portionof, of the journey, I suppose.
So I think it really depends onthe organization, what works for
them.
(15:04):
Uh, it depends what fits.
Like sometimes annually fits forpeople.
Sometimes it dozens.
I've worked with many salesorganizations where they cringe
if it's at the end of the year,cuz that's when they, they're
wrapping up their lost sales andmm-hmm.
sure.
I'm still getting deals in
Um, you know, so it doesn't workfor them.
(15:24):
Uh, so what, you know, you gottakind of figure out what works,
what works the best and howformal you wanna make it.
How maybe it's semi if you'redoing quarterly, maybe it's not
as formal until you have a, afinal at the end of the year.
Right.
So I think it, it just reallydepends on the company.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
No, that, that's, that's, that's great to hear.
So, um, it's interesting toobecause when, uh, in, in the
work that, uh, you know, uh,that my organization does, it's
funny because I always thinkthat employees managers who are
gonna give an employee a reallynegative review, they typically
put those last and then you askthem, why do you put those last?
(16:02):
Well, I really haven't told themthat they've been doing a bad
job all year or the last sixmonths, and then I just cringe.
Right.
And I'm sure you've seen thatall the time.
Well, if you were doing reviewslike you recommend, it wouldn't
be a surprise.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
That's right.
I call them no surprises.
Like, you don't wanna, aperformance review should never,
if you're gonna, it should neverbe a surprise.
And that's why I hinge so muchon these one-on-one
conversations, because it shouldnever be a surprise.
Isn't that dreadful?
Like getting to a performancereview and like, and you get
told like, Hey, you weren'tdoing a good job for the last
(16:37):
year, six months.
You could have had all this timeto improve, to develop, to grow,
and you're only finding out ayear later.
Right.
How do you improve?
I think it's such a disserviceto employees to do that.
Mm-hmm.
So that's why having theseregular conversations where
individuals feel safe to sharefeedback.
Sure.
It's okay to tell someone.
(16:58):
It's actually easier
when it happens, then bulking itall up until the end of the
year.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Right.
Oh, that's, that's so great tohear that too, because, and in
some cases it's actually adisservice to the employee
because if they don't havefeedback, I always say, you
know, employees can be verygood, but they're not psychic.
They may not know that they'redoing a bad job until you tell
them and give them very specificfeedback about what they're not
(17:26):
doing correctly.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
Yeah.
And I've never had anyone say,you know, oh gosh, that was
terrible feedback.
They're always like, oh, Ididn't know.
Or, you know what, so true.
I was kind of, I wasn't sure.
So thanks for pointing it out.
Um, so it's, it's never gone asterribly as a manager's, um,
predicted would go, it's justthat we just don't do it
(17:47):
regularly.
Right.
And that, I think that's, that'swhy we should be having these
regular conversations.
You don't, you don't step onto atennis court and just assume
that you can play.
You need to practice.
So the same goes with feedbackand, and regular conversations.
You've gotta have them becauseit builds muscle and you get
better at it.
And then you won't have thosedifficult end of year
(18:09):
conversations cuz it's anon-event.
No surprise.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Right.
Oh yeah, that's perfect.
So, so do you have, um, like doyou think that performance
management, is it a system, isit a process?
Is it both?
What are your thoughts there?
I
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Suppose it could be both though.
It's, which comes first?
Mm-hmm.
And I would say the processcomes first because performance
management, you can do without asystem.
Google Docs, OneNote, as long asyou're keeping track, everyone
has access to it and you'rehaving meaningful conversations,
I think that's more importantthan the system.
(18:50):
What happens with the system issometimes you buy it and it it,
it's not flexible enough foryour process or it doesn't, or
it hinders you from developingyour pro your performance
management strategy further thanwhat it is today.
So I think be careful and waryof buying a system to implement
performance management.
(19:11):
Right?
Cause that's, that limits youand you need to be, ha you need
to be flexible.
Mm-hmm.
Um, you can't buy a system thatworks today, that doesn't,
that's, you can't changetomorrow.
Or you buy a system that doesonly annual reviews and there's
no, no one-on-one conversationsthat you can record.
Then you have this bifurcatedprocess and it, it just doesn't
(19:33):
work for individuals, managersand employees want it to be
easy.
Mm-hmm.
We have app for everything.
So it needs to be simple.
I think, you know, as HRindividuals, if we're not
thinking about keeping itsimple, then we are hurting
ourselves about getting it towork within
Speaker 1 (19:51):
The
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Organization.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Yeah.
That is so true.
That's so true.
Well, you know what, we're gonnatake a short break, Kay.
So thank you so much.
We're gonna take a short breakand then we'll be back in a
couple of minutes just to cocontinue the conversation with,
uh, with, uh, the greatconversation we're having with K
Natal.
Thanks so much.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
You want to grow your business, but people issues are
getting in the way.
Managing the people side of yourbusiness is complex and can feel
overwhelming.
Does this sound familiar at hrCatalyst People strategy is our
business.
We create and implement a peoplestrategy with you, so you can
give back to growing yourbusiness.
(20:28):
HR Catalyst was founded in 2013with the goal of bringing the
best in class HR practices tosmall and middle market
companies.
We are your outsourced strategicpeople experts.
We help you solve the peopleissues in your business that are
slowing you down.
If you have HR concerns, you canschedule a complimentary call on
ourwebsite@hrcatalystconsulting.com.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Okay.
And we are gonna start back withour conversation with K Natal
and, uh, Kay, thank you so muchfor the conversation we've had
thus far about halfway throughour, uh, our chat today.
And so what I wanted to do isask you next, if you were again,
uh, if, if anybody who'slistening to this podcast or
watching it, if they have notdone anything regarding
(21:13):
performance management before,what would you recommend as a a
subject matter expert in thisarea?
What would you recommend asthree to five things that are
the key things they need toinclude in a performance
management process for it to besuccessful?
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Great.
I think that's, that's, that'sawesome.
And I think we've already kindof been speaking about it.
If you haven't noticed, I'mone-on-ones is definitely one of
the things you need to get inplace.
Uh, you gotta put those inplace.
Um, feedback, whether you'reusing a system to collect
feedback from individuals or,you know, making sure that
(21:50):
individuals feel comfortableputting feedback into place or
discussing feedback with peersand managers alike.
That I think is, is very, veryimportant.
And then I think it's justtaking away the, the scariness
of performance management is,uh, you know, letting
individuals know that they'reempowered to make these choices.
(22:10):
They're empowered to talk aboutit.
They don't have to wait fortheir managers.
So I think communication is bigtoo.
I think it's, if you're talkingabout it once a year, it's in
one ear and out the other.
Um, it needs to be a constantthing.
So, uh, if you're in HR oryou're a leader, you need to be
talking about what regularconversations with individuals
about, you know, setting thosegoals, making sure that
(22:32):
individuals close goals out.
I think that's another thing isthat managers feel like goals
are once a year.
Uh, things, they're not
there's no changes and that'swhat you're doing.
But ultimately business changesand, you know, things get put on
our plate, taken off our plate.
Mm-hmm.
So, uh, as a leader, you need tomake sure that individuals
(22:54):
understand that, that they needto update their, their goals and
Right.
Make sure they're driving in thedirection that you want them to
be driving to.
Right.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
That's great.
I think those
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Are important things.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
That's great.
No, thanks for that.
So, so what about if a process,you get the process going, of
course there's a lot ofexcitement about getting this
started.
What, what happens?
And, and I'm sure you found itin your experience.
So what happens at that processgets derailed or starts failing?
How, what are some things youcan recommend that an
(23:25):
organization do to get it backon track and get it back to
where it needs to be?
Speaker 2 (23:30):
I think first things first is to ask what happened.
Like, how is it, how, why is itcoming off the rails?
I think sometimes we're scared,you know, or we think we know.
Sometimes we're like, oh yeah,I've done, I've seen this happen
before at a prior organizationor company.
And sometimes it just isn't.
So we need to just ask, youknow, what, what is going on?
(23:53):
Is it a subsection of a businessthat's coming off the rails?
Is it everybody?
Um, you know, is it a certainpiece of a, uh, the process
that's not working?
Uh, is it the system that's notworking?
Like we really need to dig intowhat's not working and then you
can put in a solution.
I think that's, that's reallyimportant.
And the way that you would dothat is collect feedback, speak
(24:14):
to managers, speak to leaders,speak to employees, find out
what's not going well and whatthey don't like.
So that's the best way.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Sure.
That's great.
That's great.
I wanted to run with somethingyou just said too, and you said
a little bit earlier in ourconversation before we took our
break.
So do you recommend that withall the systems and apps that
are out there, do you recommendright up front that the
organization needs to eitherpurchase a specialty software
(24:44):
for this or use, if they'reusing a, uh, an H R E S, you
know, HR information systemplatform that has performance
management module in it, do yourecommend that everything be
embedded into a tool, um, asoftware tool that they have a
standalone or are using an H R IS system?
What are your thoughts there?
Speaker 2 (25:05):
No, don't go by a system
Okay.
Without understanding yourprocess first.
Um, and I think, you know, butalso people also need to explore
what they have.
So if you have a standing H R IS system, you know, get with a
vendor, see what it looks likeand how it works mm-hmm.
Um, and where you can makechanges, because I think that's
important because sometimes, youknow, it's a standard.
(25:29):
You only have an annual review.
This is what it looks like andthis is the standard process.
Um, ask what's coming down the,the roadmap.
Like are they including regularone-on-one conversations?
Is that being integrated intoyour performance reviews?
How do they integrate goals?
So I think there's a lot ofquestions that you should be
asking if you have a currentvendor, um, which direction are
(25:50):
they taking performancemanagement.
Maybe it's just a side module.
And then you may wanna thenthink about, is this what you
wanna do for performancemanagement or should you
consider a different system or adifferent app that you may use
for performance management orany other talent management, uh,
pieces.
So I think there's a lot toconsider when you look at
systems.
(26:11):
You don't just go out and buyone.
Uh, make sure that it works foryou now and into the future.
And then if you currently haveone, take a look at what it's
got and how much can you change.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Right.
Okay.
That's great.
So if a business owner has beenwatching this podcast and
they're still, they haven't,they don't do performance
management currently, they hathey're still not convinced.
Um, what are three reasons theyneed to get started with this?
You know, and I of course, Idon't know when people are gonna
watch this, but they need to getstarted within the next, you
(26:43):
know, one or one to two monthsat least start moving in that
direction.
What are three compellingreasons you would say that a
business leader really needs tostart putting this as a priority
for their business?
Speaker 2 (26:55):
I think, you know, there are many articles out
there that will tell you allkinds of things.
And I think the obvious areengagements.
Your individuals will beengaged, retention, uptick, and
culture.
I think those are really, reallyimportant.
But I think if you are a leaderthat really truly believes in
people and developing peoplebecause people are the backbone
(27:16):
of your organization, then Ithink you really need a look at
performance management.
Performance management is justone of those pieces.
Without it, people don't knowwhich direction they're rowing
in.
They don't know whether they'redoing well or not.
They don't know whether theyhave options at your
organization.
So with a performance managementsystem, if you're having the
(27:38):
right conversations, thenindividuals know they're guided,
they're motivated to be there,they want to help you drive,
they want to learn, they want toput what they're learning into
practice, they want to grow withyou.
Um, so I think all the problemsthat we've been having with
individuals leaving because ofcareer opportunities means
(27:59):
growth opportunities.
If we're not talking about it,if we're not sharing what we are
good at and what you're not goodat and and moving individuals in
the direction that they'resupposed to be going, then it's
only a detriment in the longrun.
So the best start now, it's nothard to get started.
Mm-hmm.
(28:19):
It's a process, but the best wayis just to get started, get your
managers talking, get youremployees talking, um, capture
those, that information and thenmove from there.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
Right.
Oh, that's awesome.
Good for you.
Now that, that's a really good,if that's a, that's a really, I
don't wanna say a sales pitchcuz it's not a sales pitch, but
it's really, it, it's really forimproving.
There's so many facets aboutthis that is really about, like
you said, employee engagementand employee engagement in most
organizations is, is quite lowfor many reasons.
(28:53):
So even just getting employeeengagement in those and having
those conversations withemployees, we have to remember
that employees are people andhaving that conversation with
those employees is, is gonna behuge.
So, um, I'm gonna stop rightthere.
Kay.
But thank you so much.
I'm gonna ask you gonna moveover to a couple of fun things I
want to ask you about, but thankyou so much.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
No problem.
Thank you.
Great questions.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
Yeah, they, they're, so thank you so much for your,
uh, just the really goodinsights you've shared today.
So, um, so we can, we're justgonna move over a couple of
quick, uh, quit hitting, uh,quick hitting fun questions for
you.
So what are three books you did,they don't have to be on this
topic, but they could be onother business related topics,
but what are three books youwould recommend that are that,
(29:36):
that are must read for, um,people in our audience today?
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Um, I have just finished Impact Players by Liz
Weisman.
So Okay.
That clearly performancemanagement,
, who are your impact players?
Um, I think is really good.
I do like the First 90 Days,which is by Michael Watkins.
So I think if you're lookingeither starting a new job or
starting to look at performancemanagement, um, in terms of
(30:02):
growing new hires, then I thinkthe first 90 days is, is a
really good book to go with.
And then I always like, uh, derelead by Brene Brown.
So anything that that is openingabout and just funny enough, she
says, you know, unclear isunkind.
So talking about performancemanagement, if you're not clear,
you're being unkind.
So Sure.
Um, go ahead and take a look atthose are my, my three that I,
(30:24):
that I really like.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
Oh, that's great.
That's great.
I'm not sure if you're a podcastlistener, but if you are, what
are some, what are, what are acouple, uh, current, uh, authors
that you enjoy listening totheir podcasts?
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Renee Brown's one of them, but there are a couple of
others.
Like, uh, brown Table Talk isreally awesome if you haven't,
um, done that.
It's with, um, Madam Mallek andDC Marshall, and they're,
they're talking about awesomecontent about breaking down the
challenges for women of colorthat they face in the workplace
and how providing practicaltips.
So that's a great, great talk.
(30:57):
If you haven't, if you haven't,um, listened to that.
Converging Conversations is alsogreat, uh, brings together
people on many different topics.
So that's, that's also a, a goodone to listen to.
Um, I also like, uh, work Lifewith Adam Grant just because he
talks about all kinds of com allkinds of topics.
Sometimes it's, uh, you know,work related, mostly work
(31:17):
related, and sometimes it's notmm-hmm.
So I like it a good mix.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Oh, that's great.
So you're, you're a very wor,very well versed podcast
listener, that's for sure.
You've got some great ideasthere and some of the, some of
the authors I have not heard of,so I've gotta go check those out
too, so.
Awesome.
Um, last question for you.
So given where you are today,what would you tell, what, what
advice would you give to your 16year old self?
Speaker 2 (31:43):
I'd say stay the course.
It's a fun and exciting ride.
And when you get to college andthey say you're gonna do hr,
don't go, what is that
It's all good.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
Oh, that is, it's
Speaker 2 (31:55):
Fun and exciting.
So funny.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
That is great.
Stay the course.
I love that.
So that is awesome.
So it's, uh, yeah, that is, thatis great.
Well, I have truly enjoyed theconversation today.
Kay.
So we're, how can people, ifthey're interested in having
further conversations with you,how can people find you online?
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Uh, LinkedIn.
Just reach out on LinkedIn andwe can chat.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
All righty.
So it's K and it's Natal, soit's N A D A L.
So just so folks, yeah.
So that's great.
So thank you so much K that it'sbeen a, a really insightful
conversation today.
And, um, I hope everybody wholistened to this got some really
good nuggets because, uh, Kayshared a lot of great insights
(32:38):
today about performancemanagement and just the insights
and just the facets ofperformance management because
it is a process and it'ssomething that's somewhat of a
cycle.
And so if you don't do it now,if you haven't done it before, I
hope you've heard a lot ofcompelling reasons today to get
started sooner than later.
So again, thank you so much forour audience.
Thank you Kay, for theopportunity to get a chance to
(33:01):
chat with you today and we'lllook forward to, uh, catching up
with our audience in a couple ofmonths.
Thanks so much.
Bye-bye.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Okay.
Thanks so much, mark.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Bye-bye.
Bye.
Popular Podcasts
Hey Jonas!
Hey Jonas! The official Jonas Brothers podcast. Hosted by Kevin, Joe, and Nick Jonas. It’s the Jonas Brothers you know... musicians, actors, and well, yes, brothers. Now, they’re sharing another side of themselves in the playful, intimate, and irreverent way only they can. Spend time with the Jonas Brothers here and stay a little bit longer for deep conversations like never before.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by Audiochuck Media Company.
Betrayal Weekly
Betrayal Weekly is back for a new season. Every Thursday, Betrayal Weekly shares first-hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. Hosted by Andrea Gunning, this weekly ongoing series digs into real-life stories of betrayal and the aftermath. From stories of double lives to dark discoveries, these are cautionary tales and accounts of resilience against all odds. From the producers of the critically acclaimed Betrayal series, Betrayal Weekly drops new episodes every Thursday. If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing them at betrayalpod@gmail.com and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations, and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience, and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack.