July 23, 2024 • 36 mins
Can an over-engineered recruitment process sabotage your hiring efforts? Dina and Hilary unpack this question and more in our latest Real Talk on Talent episode.
We dissect the recruitment journey from opening a requisition to sourcing candidates, emphasizing the fine line between efficiency and providing a quality candidate experience. Learn how to avoid the common traps of repetitive interviews and leverage technology to streamline your processes. Whether you're an HR professional or a hiring manager, this episode offers a practical guide to creating a smooth, well-documented, and effective hiring strategy.
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➡︎ Hueman Gets the Interview Process Right: "It was easy. I had a phone interview and a panel interview. They asked questions about high school, which was a surprise. It felt casual, and everyone was very nice."
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Hilary (00:06):
Welcome to Real Talk on Talent, a human resources
podcast where we talk abouttalent acquisition, recruiting
and all things hiring.
Dina (00:20):
Hi Dina, hi, Hilary, welcome back.
Oh, thank you, pleasure to beback.
Hilary (00:23):
You know, it's always a pleasure to be here with you,
Dina.
It's always a pleasure to behere with you.
If only people could listen into our pre-recording antics.
Oh my gosh, the pre-recordinggoldmine.
Dina (00:32):
Cannot share a lot of that .
Goldmine Just got to get in thezone.
We do a lot of exercises, vocalexercises, yeah, so you do.
You're more of the singer,obviously.
Um, random side note here I waswatching a shakespeare play and
, um, they were doingshakespeare in the park by me,
oh yeah, and I was watching thepeople warm up.
(00:53):
So cool and it was the mostinteresting.
I mean, that was better thanthe actual performance.
I was like I'm just watchingthe warm-up.
Hilary (00:58):
There you go, yeah well, that was a good warm-up for us.
Yeah, I think so.
We needed, I think, did.
Yeah, well, what are we?
Dina (01:04):
talking about today.
So today we're going to talkabout the recruitment process
Process, uh-huh, and then we'regoing to talk about sometimes
people can over-engineer aprocess at the expense of
candidate experience.
How do you find the balancebetween candidate experience and
efficiency?
Hilary (01:23):
Which I think is interesting because when we
first talked about process, oneof the big items we talked about
was documentation.
So, being like really clear on,like owner, next steps decision
points.
So can you give me yourthoughts a little bit?
When you said sometimes peoplecan over-engineer their process,
Just give me your elevatorpitch version of what you mean
(01:44):
by that and how you balance itwith everything we said about
documentation, clarity, etcetera.
Dina (01:49):
Great, great great, great question.
So I think, when you think ofthe recruitment process, each
person involved in therecruitment process should be
additive to the process and theyshould not be duplicating
efforts.
And I think it is, but man, isit not?
And I'll give you a perfectexample.
How many times do candidates goin for an interview?
(02:12):
And they're doing multipleinterviews and they're being
asked the same question bydifferent people in different
interviews.
That is not an efficientprocess and that's not a good
candidate experience.
Hilary (02:22):
Okay, so I really want to dig into that, but I feel
like we need a little bit ofstructure for this discussion
because otherwise we might justlike piecemeal parts of the
process.
Let's just start at thebeginning and kind of talk
through.
What does it mean to you for itto be an efficient process,
like soup to nuts?
Dina (02:41):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like this.
Okay, so an efficient processsoup to nuts.
So I think, ultimately, thegoal of recruiting is to get
great talent onto your team, andso, if it's going to be an
efficient process, what you wantto do is really make sure that
everybody again involved in theprocess is benefiting from
(03:03):
whoever was before them in theprocess.
So, like a true workflow, atrue workflow, a true workflow
there, and I think that it isreally important that we
understand everybody's rolewithin the process and how does
what they are doing impact otherpeople within the workflow
process.
Hilary (03:22):
All right.
So let's dig into this, becauseI really do want to kind of
give some specifics andespecially see where you've run
into issues before or like redflags that you'll often see pop
up.
Yeah, because I think one pieceof this that we'll probably
uncover is when you're in theprocess, you're not seeing what
like to your point, you're notseeing what's coming before or
after you, and so there may besome of those like issues.
Dina (03:50):
Yeah, all right.
So opening a rec, opening a rec, pretty straightforward, okay.
I mean, where do you see issuesin that process?
Yeah, so where do I see issues?
Well, first, it's a lack ofunderstanding.
Who is actually able to openthe rec?
Who has approval for it?
Who's the ultimate?
Hilary (03:59):
decision maker, because if you have everyone who could
just open a rec and then there'snot actually budget for it,
then you may have candidatesapplying to a role that's just
going to be canceled because itnever actually existed in the
first place.
Dina (04:10):
Okay, so you know there needs to be understanding of who
.
This is where I like a goodracy.
Okay, you know I like a goodracy here, but you need to
understand who can actuallyapprove requisitions.
Hilary (04:22):
And then, and how do you make that process efficient?
Yeah, let's say you have acompany of a couple hundred
people and so you're going tohave multiple groups that may
need to hire or may want to opena position.
How do you recommend opening,like making that rec process
really efficient?
Dina (04:39):
Yeah.
So I think that, first of all,let's use technology where we
have technology available.
So, to me, if you have anapplicant tracking system that
has a requisition process, arequisition approval process,
built in, let's use it.
What that means is you need toset up your technology right on
the front end.
So, you know, make sure that itall comes back to technology.
It really does.
(05:00):
Well and that's part of anefficient process is technology.
So you know.
I think it is important tounderstand again where do you
approve the rec, who isultimately approving it, what
happens after you approve it andwhat are your expectations as a
hiring manager once you say, oryou get a rec approved, what
are your expectations then ofthe recruiter Got it?
Hilary (05:21):
All right, let's move on from opening the rec.
Okay, let's talk about gettingcandidates.
Okay, getting candidates.
Let's talk about an efficientprocess for getting candidates,
and this is gonna be apotentially a big one, yeah,
yeah.
Dina (05:31):
So I actually think you'll have some interesting insight
on this too, sure hope so.
So again, let's hope you havetechnology here and you're you
know you're able to post yourjob.
You get good organic applicants.
Hilary (05:40):
Okay, hold on.
So I'm going to jump in on thisone.
So when we talk about anefficient process, you very
casually said you need atechnology that's going to help
with that.
But when I think about that,there are so many layers to it.
So you started with saying anefficient process really is
elevated by technology in havinga way to manage communication
(06:03):
between individuals, processflows, documentation, but in
this case talk about candidatesthere's that automation
component of it.
So an efficient process isenabled not just by where people
are in, but that technologygetting it out to as many places
as possible.
So when I think about how doyou make sure that the candidate
selection process is reallyefficient if you have an ATS
(06:26):
this is what you're referencingwhere it proliferates jobs
around, so it has that thenative function of being able to
get jobs out in front ofcandidates but then also make it
really easy for candidates tocome back in.
So that may be setting up aprogrammatic advertising
structure.
That may be setting up reallyshort paths of conversion on the
(06:49):
candidate apply side, becausethere is that balance of how do
you get jobs out there as muchas possible but have it be a
good candidate experience.
For example, there are some jobdistribution sites where their
whole function is toredistribute jobs so your jobs
get to as many people aspossible with the fewest
(07:10):
recruiter steps possible.
But then what happens is when acandidate finds the job, they
go on this like click throughtrail of like reference back,
and so it's super efficient forthe recruiter.
And then the candidate clicksto seven different sites only to
find the job's already beenclosed.
Yep, yeah.
Dina (07:29):
Thank you for following my rabbit hole, listen.
No, appreciate that rabbit holewhich you actually made me
think of, kind of another redflag something that we see a lot
.
So obviously job syndication isimportant.
You want to get your job outthere with the hopes that
qualified candidates apply.
Want to get your job out therewith the hopes that qualified
candidates apply.
So when I think of a placewhere people are often looking
(07:51):
at efficiency on the wrong endis in their job application
length.
So I will see a lot of peopleput out really cumbersome and
clunky applications for thecandidate, and what they're
thinking is is that?
Oh well, this will make myrecruiter's life easier because
they're going to have all of theinformation up front.
Hilary (08:09):
Yes, or they think that a more qualified candidate is
going to spend more timesubmitting an application which
is not true.
Dina (08:16):
Which is not true?
Hilary (08:16):
So you and I actually talked about this, I think, in
like one of our very firstpodcasts around.
It's the recruiter's job tomake the process easy for
everyone else.
So and then I think that I saidand therefore it's a TA
leader's job to make the processas easy for the recruiter,
Because if the recruiter'sfocusing on their clients, like
(08:37):
the hiring- managers andcandidates.
So what is that balance?
What's the balance of?
You?
Don't want it to be soburdensome for a recruiter that
they're miserable or they can'thit KPIs or whatever it may be.
So what's your balance on thatand what are your red flags for
saying you've leaned?
Dina (08:54):
too far one way or the other, yeah, yeah.
So I think that first, it's notgoing to be the same for every
job.
I do think that there is abaseline bit of information that
you need to be able toascertain from every candidate,
and then I think it isunderstanding with different
positions, what will you expectyour candidate volume to be?
And so I'll give you an exampleIf I post a staff accountant,
(09:18):
chances are I'm going to get agood amount of candidates coming
in Because it's a low specialty, high like active candidate
type of a role, exactly, exactly.
However, I may also get.
50% of those candidates aren'tactually qualified for the job
Because, let's be clear, peopledon't really read job
descriptions all that wellanymore.
That's a whole other story.
(09:39):
Keep going, whole other story.
Hilary (09:40):
So job descriptions in general, job in general, but
let's not get down.
Dina (09:45):
Let's keep going In general, and so there is a
balance for the recruiter tofind.
How many additional questionscan I ask on this candidate's
application in order to makesure that I'm still getting the
best people converting while notdiscouraging them from applying
, and the right amount ofinformation?
Hilary (10:02):
So it's a balancing act and that makes sense of saying
you want to.
There's kind of a throttle, is.
What you're saying is you canadd burden to the candidate
process as long as it is stillproviding the right pipeline of
candidates.
But when you see that pipelineshift, you have to start pulling
(10:23):
back and put more burden on therecruiter.
And vice versa If you've gotway more candidates, start
putting more burden on thecandidates to self-assess or to
self-qualify, so that therecruiter can kind of balance
through that Exactly.
So, how do you do that if arecruiter has 15 positions
they're trying to fill?
Dina (10:42):
Yeah.
So I think it is a matter ofunderstanding positions before
you go to market them.
Before you post a job, what Ialways like to do is I like to
see how many similar jobs areout there posted.
If I do a quick data analysis,if I look at some of the tools
that we have, I can see what thecandidate supply is within a
given market.
If I've got a pretty plushcandidate supply and there's a
(11:04):
fair amount of these jobs postedand there's good activity, then
guess what Is that in yourprocess like that assessment?
So it's going to depend on theposition.
So in my particular world we dothat assessment quite a bit,
just given the variety of rolesthat we're working on.
Hilary (11:21):
So what you're saying is , at a certain point you're
going to innately know what theanswer is, but if it's a new rec
or a new recruiter, then it isa part of your process.
Like, do you do that when youdo like an intake call or yes?
Dina (11:34):
Okay.
So you want to figure out fromthe hiring manager.
They should have an idea ofwhat what the candidate pool
looks like.
Is this a position that's easyto fill?
Historically has it beendifficult for you in the past?
So you want to understand that.
But also, as a candidate, thereare a couple, two or three
things.
Or as a recruiter, there are acouple of things you can do
pretty quickly to figure out howhard is it going to be to fill
(11:55):
this job A if a similar job isposted on LinkedIn.
Linkedin is going to show youthe number of applicants.
That's one data point for you B.
That's one data point for you B.
If you have an Indeed resumeseat, for example, go on Indeed,
do a quick keyword search andsee what you're getting out
there, see how many candidatesare out there Exactly.
So there are two quick thingsyou can do to kind of quickly
gauge the market and calibratehow much burden do I need to put
(12:17):
on myself versus how muchburden do I need to put on the
candidate?
Hilary (12:20):
Interesting.
And what do you do as a managerof people to keep a recruiter
from leaning too far into the?
Oh, let the candidate do thework for me.
How do you balance that type ofa relationship?
Dina (12:34):
So I actually think it is the manager's role to help
recruiters to understand whatmethods of recruitment are going
to be most effective for whichtypes of jobs.
So I do think it's up to amanager to understand, by
looking at historical or lookingat data in large, that, hey, we
know that if we're posting anursing position, for example,
(12:57):
we need to remove all burdenpossible.
The only thing I want to knowis that you're a licensed nurse
and you're open for looking fora new position, whatever it is.
So I think that a lot of thatis up to their next level leader
to help them make thesedecisions and help them guide.
Hilary (13:12):
So that's interesting because a couple of things come
to mind.
Like, you bring up RNspecifically, and that's
definitely been true for thepast four years, since 2019.
But we're starting to see themarket shift into more of an
employer market.
So there is that element of youhave to be able to be a
strategic thinker and pivot toreally know, kind of, where your
(13:35):
efforts are going to be mostefficient.
The other thing is thinkingabout the higher level like
overview.
So you know, we started thistalking about process and we're
talking about working withinthat process, which makes sense.
But there are certain pointsand seeing a shifting market
might be a good time to do itwhere a higher level individual
(14:00):
or person of responsibilityneeds to sit back and say do we
rethink what our process lookslike?
Because, to your point, for thepast four years we've kind of
said screening for RNs, just getas many candidates in and then
we'll find them the right role.
Who cares?
So our process changed over thelast couple of years and so do
(14:23):
you?
Do you have a cadence or like amarket indicator where you then
say, hey, leader, you shouldprobably go rethink your process
or the expectations within thatprocess.
Dina (14:34):
Yeah, so I think that it is a great idea to do an annual
review of your entirerecruitment process, and I'm
actually in the process ofconducting one right now, and so
one thing I'm actually doing isI am looking at my different
jobs by job function and by joblevel and I'm going to be able
to tell you how many activeorganic job candidates we get
(14:55):
for X number of positions.
So we'll have a matrix to gooff of, so that will help us
when we are posting a position,we can figure out how much work
do we have to do.
Are we sourcing or finding?
Hilary (15:06):
candidates.
Is there a risk of over youmentioned this earlier
over-engineering that, and whatwould that risk be?
Dina (15:14):
Yeah, yeah, so yes, there is a risk of over-engineering it
.
Yeah, so I think the thing aboutrecruitment is that there's yes
, there's data, and we know Ilove data, but there's also gut,
and what you don't want to dois rely too heavily on data that
you stop the kind of the peoplepart of the process, or the gut
(15:35):
, or the so this is interestingbecause you get a gut through
experience Mm-hmm, and datahelps you validate your
experiences right, like thereare moments where you say I kind
of think this is going tohappen, but then the results are
proven in the data.
Hilary (15:54):
So how, like how do you trust someone's gut?
Dina (16:00):
I only trust my own gut.
Okay, I was going to say Numberone.
Hilary (16:02):
You only trust your own gut, okay, I was going to say
Number one.
You only trust your own gut.
Okay, okay, that answers my.
So what you're saying is youhave to have the right people
who've done this long enough tobe able to understand like, hey,
we need to have these datapoints to help someone new learn
the process become innate.
But when you talk about beinggut, there's that human element
of we've done this.
We know what works.
Don't get controlled by thedata, but use the data to
(16:24):
validate, educate and drivedirection Exactly.
Dina (16:27):
And the reason why is that with data, there will never be
a piece of data exactly for whatyou need.
So say, for example, I havesomebody who says, dina, can
your team fill us?
We need a VP of HR inWashington DC.
Sure, totally fine, we can dothat of HR in Washington DC.
Sure, totally fine, we can dothat.
But now, if you ask me, can wedo a VP of HR in a manufacturing
(16:47):
setting in some small town inIdaho?
All my data says that we'regoing to be very successful in a
VP of HR role.
But there are these otherpieces of information that I
know from previous experiences,that you know, rural Idaho
manufacturing.
These are all kind of differentvariabilities, interesting or
variables.
Hilary (17:03):
So yeah, there you go.
We went off a little bit, butwe were talking about that
process, management, development, all that kind of stuff.
Dina (17:11):
So annual review, so every year review your recruitment
process.
Ok.
And when you're reviewing yourrecruitment process, you should
look at your candidatesatisfaction in the process.
I love to survey our candidates.
Hilary (17:25):
I love to survey our-.
Do you do it in bulk duringreview time or do you do that
consistently along the way?
Consistently?
Dina (17:30):
along the way.
So I like to survey candidatesand hiring managers.
Nice, I'm not only surveyingcandidates who get hired, I'm
surveying candidates who werecontacted by a recruiter.
Hilary (17:40):
And what are you looking for in that feedback, like as
it relates to reviewing yourprocess?
Dina (17:45):
Yeah.
So really, what I want to theanecdotal feedback is it's
usually little nuggets and bitsof information, so you will get.
I like to do an NPS survey.
I think an NPS survey is aquick data point that's going to
tell me directionally how we'redoing.
If I'm seeing that you knowwe're getting sixes, fours and
fives, I'm going to dive intothe specific questions that I
(18:06):
asked them.
So, for example, you know how'syour communication?
Oh, I felt like I didn't haveany communication, or
communication was great orwhatever it is.
So I like to get the feedbackof all of the stakeholders.
And then what I like to do is Ilike to layer on data, just a
little sprinkle, A littlesprinkle of data, but really.
(18:28):
So I like to think of it from apipeline perspective, like,
what I want to do is I want tolook at a job and I want to look
at how many candidates appliedand then eventually, when we get
to the bottom, when I got thatcandidate hired, what I want to
see is the difference in thenumber of candidates at each
step in that process to tell mehow efficient that step is.
(18:50):
And so?
Hilary (18:51):
And do you ever look at a step and say you know, that
wasn't super efficient, but thatwas by design?
Dina (18:57):
So yes, okay, yeah, can you give me an?
Hilary (19:01):
example.
Dina (19:01):
So I will give you an example.
A lot of those have to do with.
We were working with a clientand what we found was they had a
.
This is going to kind of be along answer to your question.
So they had a recruiter who wasscreening candidates for the
hiring managers.
When we looked at the data, therecruiter was sending over 99%
(19:22):
of the candidates to the hiringmanagers.
When we looked at the data, therecruiter was sending over 99%
of the candidates to the hiringmanager.
So the recruiter wasn'tscreening candidates.
They weren't being additive tothe process.
Okay, what we found was thereason why the recruiter was
doing that was because they feltit was necessary to touch base
with the candidates, which isappropriate.
You should touch base withpeople who are applying to every
(19:44):
job.
They just misinterpreted whatthat meant.
They misinterpreted what itmeant and they didn't find the
best way to do it.
So to me, when I'm adding extrasteps in the process, that may
not be the most efficient, it'sabout converting candidates.
It's about maintaining goodrelationships.
Hilary (19:59):
Interesting.
So when you said and youanswered that in a different
frame of reference, than I askedit no no, no, it's just
interesting how we read throughthat, because you say, okay,
when I looked at a process, itwas a very streamlined number of
steps, but it did not actuallymake it a more efficient end
(20:20):
result or like use of time.
So we are going to add more tothe process instead of
streamlining it.
We're actually going to addsteps because that is going to
make the overall workflow moreefficient, have an improved
focus of what you're spendingyour time on, etc.
Exactly See, in my question,the way I was thinking of it was
(20:42):
do you ever look at somethingand say you know, the recruiter
is spending an inordinate amountof time on this step, but
that's what I want them to bedoing?
Like we're trying to like chokethe pipeline down a little bit
more, or something like that.
Yeah, you don't have to answerthat, because you answered it
beautifully as it is okay, justmy point is saying it's
(21:02):
interesting how we're kind ofsaying the same thing.
What I was trying to say is wewere saying the same thing kind
of in a different framework yeah, yeah, whereas you're saying
add to the process and I wassaying add to the workload, okay
, got it, got it.
Yes, yeah, I think we're comingup close on time.
Okay, but I do want to quicklyhit on the.
(21:24):
You get to decide.
Actually, do we want to talkabout the hiring manager process
, efficiencies, or we've kind ofreferenced the like cause and
effect.
So the process, like whatyou're doing here, has the
downstream impacts and how youkeep an eye on that.
I like hiring manager.
Dina (21:39):
All right, let's do hiring manager yeah.
Hilary (21:48):
Yeah, you keep an eye on that.
I like hiring manager.
Dina (21:50):
All right, let's do.
Hiring manager, yeah, yeah.
So so wait, let me ask this GoBiggest pet peeve in a recruiter
hiring manager processinefficiency.
Okay, hiring managers, pleasedon't ask to review your
candidates before recruiterssend them over to you.
Trust your recruiter and justlet them schedule.
Hilary (21:59):
Let them be a recruiter, not just an admin like a
glorified admin.
Exactly Okay.
Dina (22:04):
Yeah, continue, okay, so, yeah.
So I think as a recruiter, yourjob is to lift the recruitment
burden off of a hiring manager'splate, and first you obviously
we know you have to have trustto get there.
I really where I see the mostinefficiencies is where hiring
managers are reluctant to givethat trust, often because they
(22:27):
don't understand what therecruiter is actually doing for
them.
Hilary (22:30):
And so in a lot of ways, they shouldn't know what a
recruiter is doing day to dayBecause, to your point earlier
in the process, they have tomake these decisions at a job
level of where is the best useof my time?
How do I rely on technology orthe candidates to get as many
qualified individuals in aspossible?
So how can a process help buildthat trust with a new recruiter
(22:51):
or a new hiring manager?
Dina (22:52):
Yeah, so first, there's, repetition creates awareness.
Okay, so the more you dosomething, the more familiar
people are going to become withthe way you operate.
So I think there is a littlebit of consistency and
repetition in what you dosomething, the more familiar
people are going to become withthe way you operate.
So I think there is a littlebit of consistency and
repetition in what you do.
But when we think of just thetrue process, what I tell my
(23:13):
recruiters is listen.
You tell those managers, my jobis to make your job easy and
this is how I am going to do it.
And so let me screen yourcandidates for you, Let me
schedule them for you.
When it comes to interviewing,you know what understand.
Ask the managers what are theyactually interviewing for?
And help them figure out iftheir interview process is the
best process, Is it the correctprocess and is it a process
(23:35):
that's actually going to addvalue to the recruitment process
.
Hilary (23:38):
I think that's an interesting point of saying I'm
going to use my own words butessentially finding out from the
hiring manager what's importantto them, like what do they want
to know, what do they wantcontrol of when?
And so if you can understandwhat their needs are, then as a
recruiter you can help educate,like hey, I've checked these
boxes off or I'm going to enableyou to still control those, but
(24:00):
here's how I'm gonna make iteasier for you or streamline
that down, exactly, exactly,nice, yeah.
Any final thoughts on efficientprocesses?
Dina (24:08):
Any final thoughts on efficient processes?
So I'll just give one verytactical yes, please.
So, as we are embarking on ouryear end process review it's not
year end.
Hilary (24:19):
My annual yes, okay.
Whitney (24:21):
Yeah, let me just tell you how I do it really quick,
okay, please Okay.
Dina (24:26):
So I have my major recruitment milestones.
Hilary (24:28):
Yes, Okay, Such as like open rec submit like hired.
Dina (24:32):
So I have candidate apply phone screen submitted,
interviewed, offered, hired,Beautiful.
Just look at the numbersbetween them, Look at the ratios
.
How many people go from thisstep to the next step, this step
to the next step?
You want to see a good amountof fall off in between the steps
.
Hilary (24:51):
So you look at quantity, not at time.
Dina (24:54):
Well, I look at time too.
I look at time too, but if I amtrying to figure out if an
individual's role is beingadditive to the recruitment
process, what I want to see istheir throughput.
I want to know, if you talk to50 candidates at the top, how
many did you send out the?
Hilary (25:11):
bottom and if you're doing this annually and you have
it documented, you're able tothen cross-check how process or
people or technology additionsimpacted the overall workflow.
So there's a validation pointthere.
But you have to have yourbaseline and the only way to
know that is to document yourprocess, have clear KPIs tied to
it, to regularly check in on itand then, at a macro level, to
(25:35):
do a larger process and consider, like to your point, you have
this candidate throughput whatare the different elements going
into it and how do we need toadjust it based off of company
changes, market changes etc.
Yeah, we could have just saidthat, we could have had like a
three-minute podcast and justsaid that, but that was the
(25:56):
essence of it.
It's so much fun.
Dina (25:58):
You know what I do want to give a shout out to Hillary,
because you make stuff soundreally nice.
Hilary (26:03):
That's why we're good together.
You just serve up the contentand then I market it to make it
sound nice.
Dina (26:07):
Oh my God, I love it.
So that's my job.
Yes, there we go.
Thank you, dina.
It's very nice.
Hey, thank you Hillary.
Hilary (26:13):
Again the Dina DeMarco and Hillary Jarman.
There we do.
So no musical moments from Dina.
We'll save that, that's okay.
Oh, but now my favorite partHot takes on hot topics yes, Ooh
(26:33):
okay.
I like how we act, like wedon't do that every time so.
Dina (26:36):
I kind of forgot about it and like full transparency.
Hilary (26:39):
I forgot, so I'm right it was the reaction I was
looking for.
So, thank you All.
Right, well, you're not goingto forget this, no, no, it's
going to be a good one.
Whitney (26:45):
It's come to my attention that our hot takes
aren't quite hot enough, so I'mgoing to spice this up a bit.
So this episode's hot take iscandidates.
It's okay if they lie during aninterview.
Hilary (27:01):
According to whom?
Whitney (27:02):
Here's why I say this that's the hot take.
Hilary (27:05):
Oh, okay, I was like okay, okay.
Whitney (27:08):
And it's based on this hot topic that Resume Genius
recently released a reportrevealing that 70% of hiring
managers have lied to jobcandidates during a recruitment
process.
Whether it's in a need tofulfill immediate hiring needs,
(27:29):
I'm seeing some guilty lookshere.
Hilary (27:30):
No, I'm like, I'm like.
Dina (27:33):
I am the brutally honest hiring manager.
Hilary (27:36):
No, not guilty, that was me being like whoa, I will
attach the Forbes article.
Whitney (27:40):
But yeah, the biggest reason is to fill immediate
hiring needs and the secondbiggest reason is to protect you
.
Hilary (27:45):
Do that.
They're going to leaveimmediately.
Whitney (27:48):
And also to protect sensitive company information
and avoid negativities likerevealing negative aspects.
Dina (27:54):
Okay.
Whitney (27:55):
So you have the floor.
Dina (27:58):
Okay, so here we go.
So hiring managers.
Hilary (28:00):
We got to start with the hiring managers Don't, yeah,
no-transcript.
Yes, you need to know, becauseif you know how to tell your
story and you know how to sellyour story, you don't have to
lie.
Correct, you craft it in a waywhere you may accentuate certain
(28:20):
things or not bring up otherelements, and that's okay.
It's just like when you startdating, you're not going to say
like here's all my baggage, butyou are going to go in and put
your best foot forward.
So, from a hiring managerstandpoint, you should never
actively lie, never actively lie.
If there is something that isan issue, like a reputation
(28:43):
issue, whatever, first of allyou need to own it, and if the
company is not doing somethingabout it, then the candidate
deserves to know that.
Second of all, if you're lyingabout the job, then no one,
they're not going to stay, thenyour turnover is going to be
ridiculous and you're actuallygoing to be wasting more time,
(29:04):
because then you have to startall over and then the cost of
turnover and all of that kind ofstuff.
Dina (29:08):
All those things, yeah.
Hilary (29:11):
So just hands down, do not lie.
No, know your story.
I've had to do that.
I've known that there wereissues on a team that I had to
be like.
I use this example, okay, inone of my trainings that I did.
I seriously dislike nougat,okay.
I think the texture is weird.
Dina (29:32):
You don't have to explain this.
Well, I need to explain.
I need to explain.
Okay, look at the texture isweird, you don't have to explain
.
Well, I need to explain.
Okay, look at my marshmallowfriend over here.
Hilary (29:39):
I do not like nougat.
I don't like the texture, it'stoo sugary, it's just.
It's not my thing.
My favorite candy bar, though,is a Snickers.
Okay, and it's because thecombination of the nougat with
the caramel and the peanuts andthe chocolate, it comes together
beautifully Okay.
So when you are a hiringmanager, you have to know how to
(30:01):
describe the snicker bar andnot get caught up on the nougat.
That's my analogy of how tosell a good story.
Okay, from a candidatestandpoint it's a similar thing.
It is.
But if you lie first of all,why are you lying to get a job?
Is that job not for you?
Are you just trying to makeyourself feel better?
Dina (30:20):
So I'm going to, totally I'm going to go on the candidate
side here.
Hilary (30:23):
I'm heated.
Dina (30:24):
I didn't realize.
So I don't think that peopleshould out and out lie, yeah.
But what I will say, andobviously I would never do this,
but what I will say, andobviously I would never do this.
Continue.
Here's what I would say.
Have we looked at your resume?
Hilary (30:39):
recently, I know right.
Dina (30:41):
You have to put your best foot forward.
Yeah, and oftentimes you areapplying for a position that
requires you to do somethingthat you've only done a little
bit of.
But, man, when you only did ita little bit, you kicked butt at
it.
And so I do know people whohave gone into interviews and
(31:04):
inflated experience that theyhave had in order to get other
positions I don't agree with it?
Hilary (31:11):
No.
Here's my opinion on this.
Two things.
One, remember that a jobdescription is an ideal person
Okay, You're never.
If you hit every singlerequirement in a job description
, you're overqualified for thejob.
Okay, so in that scenario, ifyou don't hit or you very
lightly have experience, thenthat's okay.
(31:33):
First of all, and to your point, if you have some exposure,
then you know what you're goingto be stepping into.
So, yeah, you should feelconfident, saying like I haven't
done a ton of that, but I havedone this and here's how I would
approach it in this scenario.
That's not inflating, that issaying this little experience
actually makes me qualified forall that.
Dina (31:54):
So I think, where candidates feel like they could
lie and again I don't I don'tthink anybody should lie.
That's one of my downfalls isI'm just I shoot it too straight
.
Hilary (32:02):
They say straight up lie or inflation because lie.
Dina (32:07):
So yeah, so you know what.
So don't lie, but do spend timeunderstanding why you want the
job and how you can tell yourstory relevant to why you want
the job.
Hilary (32:18):
Also, if you're the kind of person I'm not a karma
person, but if you're going toshow up and lie at your
interview, then you have to beokay if your company is lying to
you.
Whitney (32:32):
And that is not the kind of place I want to work.
Hilary (32:34):
You're right, and if I find out someone straight up
lied to me to get a job, I'mgoing to be like what else are
you comfortable not being honestabout?
I?
Dina (32:45):
mean, yeah, that's just such a bad footing to start a
relationship.
Those are not our core valueshere at Human.
No, actually, I have aninterview for a dentist position
a little bit later.
I went to dental school and Ineed to go ahead and prep for
this.
What Good luck Like good luck?
Hilary (33:03):
Yeah, so hot, I have teeth so I know how to be a
dentist Qualified.
Dina (33:09):
Don't lie.
I think I mean Figure out howto tell your story in the best
light possible.
If you're a hiring manager,tell the story the way it is.
Don't paint it pretty.
Paint a realistic picture.
Hilary (33:20):
I do think you bring up a good point.
It is an interesting reflectionof the perspective of the
relationship between employeeand employer.
If there's a perspective that ahiring manager is just going to
lie to me anyway and makeeverything sound perfect, then
there's broken trust within theemployment system.
So I would say, if you areconcerned, if you're stepping in
(33:40):
and you have a feeling that youmay want to lie because the
hiring manager is going to lie,then ask to talk to people.
And if a hiring manager is like, no, you can't meet team
members, you can't, whatever,that's a red flag.
Yeah, if you just say, hey, I'dlove to like talk to someone
about their experience, like youknow, just like 15 minutes
before or after an interview, ifthey're not willing to say,
(34:02):
sure, here is who you would workwith.
Dina (34:05):
Yeah, Okay, you just stumbled upon something
Employment references.
I've done that before.
Yes, absolutely New thing,reinvented.
But again.
Hilary (34:17):
I'm like, because I think this is probably a symptom
and we should probably do awhole podcast on this.
Good work, whitney.
Very hot topic Is if you are ata point where you feel like the
system is failing you, so you'rejust going to say, like screw
the system, I'm going to justfigure out any way to get into
this.
Why is that a system you'd wantto be in?
(34:38):
Oh yes.
And if you feel that way, thereare things you can do to
validate or educate or grow.
Don't fall into that like it'sall broken.
Who cares?
We'll just like throw thesystem out the window.
There are things you can do tobypass that and to feel better.
So, all right, yeah, Great work, Dina.
(34:58):
Wow, Wow.
Dina (35:02):
Technology is next time.
Technology, is it?
I think we're going to talkabout AI, right?
Yes, yeah.
Hilary (35:08):
Artificial intelligence.
It's going to take over my job.
It's actually just going to betwo AI systems.
Dina (35:14):
Listen, just doing the podcast next time.
I'm currently not here.
I'm at my dental interviewright now.
Whitney (35:19):
Well, Dina, you do that .
I'm going to go to mypodcasting job and tell you how
much of an expert I am at this,love it.
Dina (35:25):
Oh, yes, yes, listen, listen 100%.
Awesome Thousands of viewers Ican.
Hilary (35:32):
I can start a podcast.
I have a million.
Oh my god.
Thank you anyway.
Whitney (35:38):
Thank you dina, thank you hillary thanks whitney
thanks we'll see you guys laterbye, bye.
Welcome to Real Talk on Talent, a human resources
podcast where we talk abouttalent acquisition, recruiting
and all things hiring.
Dina (00:20):
Hi Dina, hi, Hilary, welcome back.
Oh, thank you, pleasure to beback.
Hilary (00:23):
You know, it's always a pleasure to be here with you,
Dina.
It's always a pleasure to behere with you.
If only people could listen into our pre-recording antics.
Oh my gosh, the pre-recordinggoldmine.
Dina (00:32):
Cannot share a lot of that .
Goldmine Just got to get in thezone.
We do a lot of exercises, vocalexercises, yeah, so you do.
You're more of the singer,obviously.
Um, random side note here I waswatching a shakespeare play and
, um, they were doingshakespeare in the park by me,
oh yeah, and I was watching thepeople warm up.
(00:53):
So cool and it was the mostinteresting.
I mean, that was better thanthe actual performance.
I was like I'm just watchingthe warm-up.
Hilary (00:58):
There you go, yeah well, that was a good warm-up for us.
Yeah, I think so.
We needed, I think, did.
Yeah, well, what are we?
Dina (01:04):
talking about today.
So today we're going to talkabout the recruitment process
Process, uh-huh, and then we'regoing to talk about sometimes
people can over-engineer aprocess at the expense of
candidate experience.
How do you find the balancebetween candidate experience and
efficiency?
Hilary (01:23):
Which I think is interesting because when we
first talked about process, oneof the big items we talked about
was documentation.
So, being like really clear on,like owner, next steps decision
points.
So can you give me yourthoughts a little bit?
When you said sometimes peoplecan over-engineer their process,
Just give me your elevatorpitch version of what you mean
(01:44):
by that and how you balance itwith everything we said about
documentation, clarity, etcetera.
Dina (01:49):
Great, great great, great question.
So I think, when you think ofthe recruitment process, each
person involved in therecruitment process should be
additive to the process and theyshould not be duplicating
efforts.
And I think it is, but man, isit not?
And I'll give you a perfectexample.
How many times do candidates goin for an interview?
(02:12):
And they're doing multipleinterviews and they're being
asked the same question bydifferent people in different
interviews.
That is not an efficientprocess and that's not a good
candidate experience.
Hilary (02:22):
Okay, so I really want to dig into that, but I feel
like we need a little bit ofstructure for this discussion
because otherwise we might justlike piecemeal parts of the
process.
Let's just start at thebeginning and kind of talk
through.
What does it mean to you for itto be an efficient process,
like soup to nuts?
Dina (02:41):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like this.
Okay, so an efficient processsoup to nuts.
So I think, ultimately, thegoal of recruiting is to get
great talent onto your team, andso, if it's going to be an
efficient process, what you wantto do is really make sure that
everybody again involved in theprocess is benefiting from
(03:03):
whoever was before them in theprocess.
So, like a true workflow, atrue workflow, a true workflow
there, and I think that it isreally important that we
understand everybody's rolewithin the process and how does
what they are doing impact otherpeople within the workflow
process.
Hilary (03:22):
All right.
So let's dig into this, becauseI really do want to kind of
give some specifics andespecially see where you've run
into issues before or like redflags that you'll often see pop
up.
Yeah, because I think one pieceof this that we'll probably
uncover is when you're in theprocess, you're not seeing what
like to your point, you're notseeing what's coming before or
after you, and so there may besome of those like issues.
Dina (03:50):
Yeah, all right.
So opening a rec, opening a rec, pretty straightforward, okay.
I mean, where do you see issuesin that process?
Yeah, so where do I see issues?
Well, first, it's a lack ofunderstanding.
Who is actually able to openthe rec?
Who has approval for it?
Who's the ultimate?
Hilary (03:59):
decision maker, because if you have everyone who could
just open a rec and then there'snot actually budget for it,
then you may have candidatesapplying to a role that's just
going to be canceled because itnever actually existed in the
first place.
Dina (04:10):
Okay, so you know there needs to be understanding of who
.
This is where I like a goodracy.
Okay, you know I like a goodracy here, but you need to
understand who can actuallyapprove requisitions.
Hilary (04:22):
And then, and how do you make that process efficient?
Yeah, let's say you have acompany of a couple hundred
people and so you're going tohave multiple groups that may
need to hire or may want to opena position.
How do you recommend opening,like making that rec process
really efficient?
Dina (04:39):
Yeah.
So I think that, first of all,let's use technology where we
have technology available.
So, to me, if you have anapplicant tracking system that
has a requisition process, arequisition approval process,
built in, let's use it.
What that means is you need toset up your technology right on
the front end.
So, you know, make sure that itall comes back to technology.
It really does.
(05:00):
Well and that's part of anefficient process is technology.
So you know.
I think it is important tounderstand again where do you
approve the rec, who isultimately approving it, what
happens after you approve it andwhat are your expectations as a
hiring manager once you say, oryou get a rec approved, what
are your expectations then ofthe recruiter Got it?
Hilary (05:21):
All right, let's move on from opening the rec.
Okay, let's talk about gettingcandidates.
Okay, getting candidates.
Let's talk about an efficientprocess for getting candidates,
and this is gonna be apotentially a big one, yeah,
yeah.
Dina (05:31):
So I actually think you'll have some interesting insight
on this too, sure hope so.
So again, let's hope you havetechnology here and you're you
know you're able to post yourjob.
You get good organic applicants.
Hilary (05:40):
Okay, hold on.
So I'm going to jump in on thisone.
So when we talk about anefficient process, you very
casually said you need atechnology that's going to help
with that.
But when I think about that,there are so many layers to it.
So you started with saying anefficient process really is
elevated by technology in havinga way to manage communication
(06:03):
between individuals, processflows, documentation, but in
this case talk about candidatesthere's that automation
component of it.
So an efficient process isenabled not just by where people
are in, but that technologygetting it out to as many places
as possible.
So when I think about how doyou make sure that the candidate
selection process is reallyefficient if you have an ATS
(06:26):
this is what you're referencingwhere it proliferates jobs
around, so it has that thenative function of being able to
get jobs out in front ofcandidates but then also make it
really easy for candidates tocome back in.
So that may be setting up aprogrammatic advertising
structure.
That may be setting up reallyshort paths of conversion on the
(06:49):
candidate apply side, becausethere is that balance of how do
you get jobs out there as muchas possible but have it be a
good candidate experience.
For example, there are some jobdistribution sites where their
whole function is toredistribute jobs so your jobs
get to as many people aspossible with the fewest
(07:10):
recruiter steps possible.
But then what happens is when acandidate finds the job, they
go on this like click throughtrail of like reference back,
and so it's super efficient forthe recruiter.
And then the candidate clicksto seven different sites only to
find the job's already beenclosed.
Yep, yeah.
Dina (07:29):
Thank you for following my rabbit hole, listen.
No, appreciate that rabbit holewhich you actually made me
think of, kind of another redflag something that we see a lot
.
So obviously job syndication isimportant.
You want to get your job outthere with the hopes that
qualified candidates apply.
Want to get your job out therewith the hopes that qualified
candidates apply.
So when I think of a placewhere people are often looking
(07:51):
at efficiency on the wrong endis in their job application
length.
So I will see a lot of peopleput out really cumbersome and
clunky applications for thecandidate, and what they're
thinking is is that?
Oh well, this will make myrecruiter's life easier because
they're going to have all of theinformation up front.
Hilary (08:09):
Yes, or they think that a more qualified candidate is
going to spend more timesubmitting an application which
is not true.
Dina (08:16):
Which is not true?
Hilary (08:16):
So you and I actually talked about this, I think, in
like one of our very firstpodcasts around.
It's the recruiter's job tomake the process easy for
everyone else.
So and then I think that I saidand therefore it's a TA
leader's job to make the processas easy for the recruiter,
Because if the recruiter'sfocusing on their clients, like
(08:37):
the hiring- managers andcandidates.
So what is that balance?
What's the balance of?
You?
Don't want it to be soburdensome for a recruiter that
they're miserable or they can'thit KPIs or whatever it may be.
So what's your balance on thatand what are your red flags for
saying you've leaned?
Dina (08:54):
too far one way or the other, yeah, yeah.
So I think that first, it's notgoing to be the same for every
job.
I do think that there is abaseline bit of information that
you need to be able toascertain from every candidate,
and then I think it isunderstanding with different
positions, what will you expectyour candidate volume to be?
And so I'll give you an exampleIf I post a staff accountant,
(09:18):
chances are I'm going to get agood amount of candidates coming
in Because it's a low specialty, high like active candidate
type of a role, exactly, exactly.
However, I may also get.
50% of those candidates aren'tactually qualified for the job
Because, let's be clear, peopledon't really read job
descriptions all that wellanymore.
That's a whole other story.
(09:39):
Keep going, whole other story.
Hilary (09:40):
So job descriptions in general, job in general, but
let's not get down.
Dina (09:45):
Let's keep going In general, and so there is a
balance for the recruiter tofind.
How many additional questionscan I ask on this candidate's
application in order to makesure that I'm still getting the
best people converting while notdiscouraging them from applying
, and the right amount ofinformation?
Hilary (10:02):
So it's a balancing act and that makes sense of saying
you want to.
There's kind of a throttle, is.
What you're saying is you canadd burden to the candidate
process as long as it is stillproviding the right pipeline of
candidates.
But when you see that pipelineshift, you have to start pulling
(10:23):
back and put more burden on therecruiter.
And vice versa If you've gotway more candidates, start
putting more burden on thecandidates to self-assess or to
self-qualify, so that therecruiter can kind of balance
through that Exactly.
So, how do you do that if arecruiter has 15 positions
they're trying to fill?
Dina (10:42):
Yeah.
So I think it is a matter ofunderstanding positions before
you go to market them.
Before you post a job, what Ialways like to do is I like to
see how many similar jobs areout there posted.
If I do a quick data analysis,if I look at some of the tools
that we have, I can see what thecandidate supply is within a
given market.
If I've got a pretty plushcandidate supply and there's a
(11:04):
fair amount of these jobs postedand there's good activity, then
guess what Is that in yourprocess like that assessment?
So it's going to depend on theposition.
So in my particular world we dothat assessment quite a bit,
just given the variety of rolesthat we're working on.
Hilary (11:21):
So what you're saying is , at a certain point you're
going to innately know what theanswer is, but if it's a new rec
or a new recruiter, then it isa part of your process.
Like, do you do that when youdo like an intake call or yes?
Dina (11:34):
Okay.
So you want to figure out fromthe hiring manager.
They should have an idea ofwhat what the candidate pool
looks like.
Is this a position that's easyto fill?
Historically has it beendifficult for you in the past?
So you want to understand that.
But also, as a candidate, thereare a couple, two or three
things.
Or as a recruiter, there are acouple of things you can do
pretty quickly to figure out howhard is it going to be to fill
(11:55):
this job A if a similar job isposted on LinkedIn.
Linkedin is going to show youthe number of applicants.
That's one data point for you B.
That's one data point for you B.
If you have an Indeed resumeseat, for example, go on Indeed,
do a quick keyword search andsee what you're getting out
there, see how many candidatesare out there Exactly.
So there are two quick thingsyou can do to kind of quickly
gauge the market and calibratehow much burden do I need to put
(12:17):
on myself versus how muchburden do I need to put on the
candidate?
Hilary (12:20):
Interesting.
And what do you do as a managerof people to keep a recruiter
from leaning too far into the?
Oh, let the candidate do thework for me.
How do you balance that type ofa relationship?
Dina (12:34):
So I actually think it is the manager's role to help
recruiters to understand whatmethods of recruitment are going
to be most effective for whichtypes of jobs.
So I do think it's up to amanager to understand, by
looking at historical or lookingat data in large, that, hey, we
know that if we're posting anursing position, for example,
(12:57):
we need to remove all burdenpossible.
The only thing I want to knowis that you're a licensed nurse
and you're open for looking fora new position, whatever it is.
So I think that a lot of thatis up to their next level leader
to help them make thesedecisions and help them guide.
Hilary (13:12):
So that's interesting because a couple of things come
to mind.
Like, you bring up RNspecifically, and that's
definitely been true for thepast four years, since 2019.
But we're starting to see themarket shift into more of an
employer market.
So there is that element of youhave to be able to be a
strategic thinker and pivot toreally know, kind of, where your
(13:35):
efforts are going to be mostefficient.
The other thing is thinkingabout the higher level like
overview.
So you know, we started thistalking about process and we're
talking about working withinthat process, which makes sense.
But there are certain pointsand seeing a shifting market
might be a good time to do itwhere a higher level individual
(14:00):
or person of responsibilityneeds to sit back and say do we
rethink what our process lookslike?
Because, to your point, for thepast four years we've kind of
said screening for RNs, just getas many candidates in and then
we'll find them the right role.
Who cares?
So our process changed over thelast couple of years and so do
(14:23):
you?
Do you have a cadence or like amarket indicator where you then
say, hey, leader, you shouldprobably go rethink your process
or the expectations within thatprocess.
Dina (14:34):
Yeah, so I think that it is a great idea to do an annual
review of your entirerecruitment process, and I'm
actually in the process ofconducting one right now, and so
one thing I'm actually doing isI am looking at my different
jobs by job function and by joblevel and I'm going to be able
to tell you how many activeorganic job candidates we get
(14:55):
for X number of positions.
So we'll have a matrix to gooff of, so that will help us
when we are posting a position,we can figure out how much work
do we have to do.
Are we sourcing or finding?
Hilary (15:06):
candidates.
Is there a risk of over youmentioned this earlier
over-engineering that, and whatwould that risk be?
Dina (15:14):
Yeah, yeah, so yes, there is a risk of over-engineering it
.
Yeah, so I think the thing aboutrecruitment is that there's yes
, there's data, and we know Ilove data, but there's also gut,
and what you don't want to dois rely too heavily on data that
you stop the kind of the peoplepart of the process, or the gut
(15:35):
, or the so this is interestingbecause you get a gut through
experience Mm-hmm, and datahelps you validate your
experiences right, like thereare moments where you say I kind
of think this is going tohappen, but then the results are
proven in the data.
Hilary (15:54):
So how, like how do you trust someone's gut?
Dina (16:00):
I only trust my own gut.
Okay, I was going to say Numberone.
Hilary (16:02):
You only trust your own gut, okay, I was going to say
Number one.
You only trust your own gut.
Okay, okay, that answers my.
So what you're saying is youhave to have the right people
who've done this long enough tobe able to understand like, hey,
we need to have these datapoints to help someone new learn
the process become innate.
But when you talk about beinggut, there's that human element
of we've done this.
We know what works.
Don't get controlled by thedata, but use the data to
(16:24):
validate, educate and drivedirection Exactly.
Dina (16:27):
And the reason why is that with data, there will never be
a piece of data exactly for whatyou need.
So say, for example, I havesomebody who says, dina, can
your team fill us?
We need a VP of HR inWashington DC.
Sure, totally fine, we can dothat of HR in Washington DC.
Sure, totally fine, we can dothat.
But now, if you ask me, can wedo a VP of HR in a manufacturing
(16:47):
setting in some small town inIdaho?
All my data says that we'regoing to be very successful in a
VP of HR role.
But there are these otherpieces of information that I
know from previous experiences,that you know, rural Idaho
manufacturing.
These are all kind of differentvariabilities, interesting or
variables.
Hilary (17:03):
So yeah, there you go.
We went off a little bit, butwe were talking about that
process, management, development, all that kind of stuff.
Dina (17:11):
So annual review, so every year review your recruitment
process.
Ok.
And when you're reviewing yourrecruitment process, you should
look at your candidatesatisfaction in the process.
I love to survey our candidates.
Hilary (17:25):
I love to survey our-.
Do you do it in bulk duringreview time or do you do that
consistently along the way?
Consistently?
Dina (17:30):
along the way.
So I like to survey candidatesand hiring managers.
Nice, I'm not only surveyingcandidates who get hired, I'm
surveying candidates who werecontacted by a recruiter.
Hilary (17:40):
And what are you looking for in that feedback, like as
it relates to reviewing yourprocess?
Dina (17:45):
Yeah.
So really, what I want to theanecdotal feedback is it's
usually little nuggets and bitsof information, so you will get.
I like to do an NPS survey.
I think an NPS survey is aquick data point that's going to
tell me directionally how we'redoing.
If I'm seeing that you knowwe're getting sixes, fours and
fives, I'm going to dive intothe specific questions that I
(18:06):
asked them.
So, for example, you know how'syour communication?
Oh, I felt like I didn't haveany communication, or
communication was great orwhatever it is.
So I like to get the feedbackof all of the stakeholders.
And then what I like to do is Ilike to layer on data, just a
little sprinkle, A littlesprinkle of data, but really.
(18:28):
So I like to think of it from apipeline perspective, like,
what I want to do is I want tolook at a job and I want to look
at how many candidates appliedand then eventually, when we get
to the bottom, when I got thatcandidate hired, what I want to
see is the difference in thenumber of candidates at each
step in that process to tell mehow efficient that step is.
(18:50):
And so?
Hilary (18:51):
And do you ever look at a step and say you know, that
wasn't super efficient, but thatwas by design?
Dina (18:57):
So yes, okay, yeah, can you give me an?
Hilary (19:01):
example.
Dina (19:01):
So I will give you an example.
A lot of those have to do with.
We were working with a clientand what we found was they had a
.
This is going to kind of be along answer to your question.
So they had a recruiter who wasscreening candidates for the
hiring managers.
When we looked at the data, therecruiter was sending over 99%
(19:22):
of the candidates to the hiringmanagers.
When we looked at the data, therecruiter was sending over 99%
of the candidates to the hiringmanager.
So the recruiter wasn'tscreening candidates.
They weren't being additive tothe process.
Okay, what we found was thereason why the recruiter was
doing that was because they feltit was necessary to touch base
with the candidates, which isappropriate.
You should touch base withpeople who are applying to every
(19:44):
job.
They just misinterpreted whatthat meant.
They misinterpreted what itmeant and they didn't find the
best way to do it.
So to me, when I'm adding extrasteps in the process, that may
not be the most efficient, it'sabout converting candidates.
It's about maintaining goodrelationships.
Hilary (19:59):
Interesting.
So when you said and youanswered that in a different
frame of reference, than I askedit no no, no, it's just
interesting how we read throughthat, because you say, okay,
when I looked at a process, itwas a very streamlined number of
steps, but it did not actuallymake it a more efficient end
(20:20):
result or like use of time.
So we are going to add more tothe process instead of
streamlining it.
We're actually going to addsteps because that is going to
make the overall workflow moreefficient, have an improved
focus of what you're spendingyour time on, etc.
Exactly See, in my question,the way I was thinking of it was
(20:42):
do you ever look at somethingand say you know, the recruiter
is spending an inordinate amountof time on this step, but
that's what I want them to bedoing?
Like we're trying to like chokethe pipeline down a little bit
more, or something like that.
Yeah, you don't have to answerthat, because you answered it
beautifully as it is okay, justmy point is saying it's
(21:02):
interesting how we're kind ofsaying the same thing.
What I was trying to say is wewere saying the same thing kind
of in a different framework yeah, yeah, whereas you're saying
add to the process and I wassaying add to the workload, okay
, got it, got it.
Yes, yeah, I think we're comingup close on time.
Okay, but I do want to quicklyhit on the.
(21:24):
You get to decide.
Actually, do we want to talkabout the hiring manager process
, efficiencies, or we've kind ofreferenced the like cause and
effect.
So the process, like whatyou're doing here, has the
downstream impacts and how youkeep an eye on that.
I like hiring manager.
Dina (21:39):
All right, let's do hiring manager yeah.
Hilary (21:48):
Yeah, you keep an eye on that.
I like hiring manager.
Dina (21:50):
All right, let's do.
Hiring manager, yeah, yeah.
So so wait, let me ask this GoBiggest pet peeve in a recruiter
hiring manager processinefficiency.
Okay, hiring managers, pleasedon't ask to review your
candidates before recruiterssend them over to you.
Trust your recruiter and justlet them schedule.
Hilary (21:59):
Let them be a recruiter, not just an admin like a
glorified admin.
Exactly Okay.
Dina (22:04):
Yeah, continue, okay, so, yeah.
So I think as a recruiter, yourjob is to lift the recruitment
burden off of a hiring manager'splate, and first you obviously
we know you have to have trustto get there.
I really where I see the mostinefficiencies is where hiring
managers are reluctant to givethat trust, often because they
(22:27):
don't understand what therecruiter is actually doing for
them.
Hilary (22:30):
And so in a lot of ways, they shouldn't know what a
recruiter is doing day to dayBecause, to your point earlier
in the process, they have tomake these decisions at a job
level of where is the best useof my time?
How do I rely on technology orthe candidates to get as many
qualified individuals in aspossible?
So how can a process help buildthat trust with a new recruiter
(22:51):
or a new hiring manager?
Dina (22:52):
Yeah, so first, there's, repetition creates awareness.
Okay, so the more you dosomething, the more familiar
people are going to become withthe way you operate.
So I think there is a littlebit of consistency and
repetition in what you dosomething, the more familiar
people are going to become withthe way you operate.
So I think there is a littlebit of consistency and
repetition in what you do.
But when we think of just thetrue process, what I tell my
(23:13):
recruiters is listen.
You tell those managers, my jobis to make your job easy and
this is how I am going to do it.
And so let me screen yourcandidates for you, Let me
schedule them for you.
When it comes to interviewing,you know what understand.
Ask the managers what are theyactually interviewing for?
And help them figure out iftheir interview process is the
best process, Is it the correctprocess and is it a process
(23:35):
that's actually going to addvalue to the recruitment process
.
Hilary (23:38):
I think that's an interesting point of saying I'm
going to use my own words butessentially finding out from the
hiring manager what's importantto them, like what do they want
to know, what do they wantcontrol of when?
And so if you can understandwhat their needs are, then as a
recruiter you can help educate,like hey, I've checked these
boxes off or I'm going to enableyou to still control those, but
(24:00):
here's how I'm gonna make iteasier for you or streamline
that down, exactly, exactly,nice, yeah.
Any final thoughts on efficientprocesses?
Dina (24:08):
Any final thoughts on efficient processes?
So I'll just give one verytactical yes, please.
So, as we are embarking on ouryear end process review it's not
year end.
Hilary (24:19):
My annual yes, okay.
Whitney (24:21):
Yeah, let me just tell you how I do it really quick,
okay, please Okay.
Dina (24:26):
So I have my major recruitment milestones.
Hilary (24:28):
Yes, Okay, Such as like open rec submit like hired.
Dina (24:32):
So I have candidate apply phone screen submitted,
interviewed, offered, hired,Beautiful.
Just look at the numbersbetween them, Look at the ratios
.
How many people go from thisstep to the next step, this step
to the next step?
You want to see a good amountof fall off in between the steps
.
Hilary (24:51):
So you look at quantity, not at time.
Dina (24:54):
Well, I look at time too.
I look at time too, but if I amtrying to figure out if an
individual's role is beingadditive to the recruitment
process, what I want to see istheir throughput.
I want to know, if you talk to50 candidates at the top, how
many did you send out the?
Hilary (25:11):
bottom and if you're doing this annually and you have
it documented, you're able tothen cross-check how process or
people or technology additionsimpacted the overall workflow.
So there's a validation pointthere.
But you have to have yourbaseline and the only way to
know that is to document yourprocess, have clear KPIs tied to
it, to regularly check in on itand then, at a macro level, to
(25:35):
do a larger process and consider, like to your point, you have
this candidate throughput whatare the different elements going
into it and how do we need toadjust it based off of company
changes, market changes etc.
Yeah, we could have just saidthat, we could have had like a
three-minute podcast and justsaid that, but that was the
(25:56):
essence of it.
It's so much fun.
Dina (25:58):
You know what I do want to give a shout out to Hillary,
because you make stuff soundreally nice.
Hilary (26:03):
That's why we're good together.
You just serve up the contentand then I market it to make it
sound nice.
Dina (26:07):
Oh my God, I love it.
So that's my job.
Yes, there we go.
Thank you, dina.
It's very nice.
Hey, thank you Hillary.
Hilary (26:13):
Again the Dina DeMarco and Hillary Jarman.
There we do.
So no musical moments from Dina.
We'll save that, that's okay.
Oh, but now my favorite partHot takes on hot topics yes, Ooh
(26:33):
okay.
I like how we act, like wedon't do that every time so.
Dina (26:36):
I kind of forgot about it and like full transparency.
Hilary (26:39):
I forgot, so I'm right it was the reaction I was
looking for.
So, thank you All.
Right, well, you're not goingto forget this, no, no, it's
going to be a good one.
Whitney (26:45):
It's come to my attention that our hot takes
aren't quite hot enough, so I'mgoing to spice this up a bit.
So this episode's hot take iscandidates.
It's okay if they lie during aninterview.
Hilary (27:01):
According to whom?
Whitney (27:02):
Here's why I say this that's the hot take.
Hilary (27:05):
Oh, okay, I was like okay, okay.
Whitney (27:08):
And it's based on this hot topic that Resume Genius
recently released a reportrevealing that 70% of hiring
managers have lied to jobcandidates during a recruitment
process.
Whether it's in a need tofulfill immediate hiring needs,
(27:29):
I'm seeing some guilty lookshere.
Hilary (27:30):
No, I'm like, I'm like.
Dina (27:33):
I am the brutally honest hiring manager.
Hilary (27:36):
No, not guilty, that was me being like whoa, I will
attach the Forbes article.
Whitney (27:40):
But yeah, the biggest reason is to fill immediate
hiring needs and the secondbiggest reason is to protect you
.
Hilary (27:45):
Do that.
They're going to leaveimmediately.
Whitney (27:48):
And also to protect sensitive company information
and avoid negativities likerevealing negative aspects.
Dina (27:54):
Okay.
Whitney (27:55):
So you have the floor.
Dina (27:58):
Okay, so here we go.
So hiring managers.
Hilary (28:00):
We got to start with the hiring managers Don't, yeah,
no-transcript.
Yes, you need to know, becauseif you know how to tell your
story and you know how to sellyour story, you don't have to
lie.
Correct, you craft it in a waywhere you may accentuate certain
(28:20):
things or not bring up otherelements, and that's okay.
It's just like when you startdating, you're not going to say
like here's all my baggage, butyou are going to go in and put
your best foot forward.
So, from a hiring managerstandpoint, you should never
actively lie, never actively lie.
If there is something that isan issue, like a reputation
(28:43):
issue, whatever, first of allyou need to own it, and if the
company is not doing somethingabout it, then the candidate
deserves to know that.
Second of all, if you're lyingabout the job, then no one,
they're not going to stay, thenyour turnover is going to be
ridiculous and you're actuallygoing to be wasting more time,
(29:04):
because then you have to startall over and then the cost of
turnover and all of that kind ofstuff.
Dina (29:08):
All those things, yeah.
Hilary (29:11):
So just hands down, do not lie.
No, know your story.
I've had to do that.
I've known that there wereissues on a team that I had to
be like.
I use this example, okay, inone of my trainings that I did.
I seriously dislike nougat,okay.
I think the texture is weird.
Dina (29:32):
You don't have to explain this.
Well, I need to explain.
I need to explain.
Okay, look at the texture isweird, you don't have to explain
.
Well, I need to explain.
Okay, look at my marshmallowfriend over here.
Hilary (29:39):
I do not like nougat.
I don't like the texture, it'stoo sugary, it's just.
It's not my thing.
My favorite candy bar, though,is a Snickers.
Okay, and it's because thecombination of the nougat with
the caramel and the peanuts andthe chocolate, it comes together
beautifully Okay.
So when you are a hiringmanager, you have to know how to
(30:01):
describe the snicker bar andnot get caught up on the nougat.
That's my analogy of how tosell a good story.
Okay, from a candidatestandpoint it's a similar thing.
It is.
But if you lie first of all,why are you lying to get a job?
Is that job not for you?
Are you just trying to makeyourself feel better?
Dina (30:20):
So I'm going to, totally I'm going to go on the candidate
side here.
Hilary (30:23):
I'm heated.
Dina (30:24):
I didn't realize.
So I don't think that peopleshould out and out lie, yeah.
But what I will say, andobviously I would never do this,
but what I will say, andobviously I would never do this.
Continue.
Here's what I would say.
Have we looked at your resume?
Hilary (30:39):
recently, I know right.
Dina (30:41):
You have to put your best foot forward.
Yeah, and oftentimes you areapplying for a position that
requires you to do somethingthat you've only done a little
bit of.
But, man, when you only did ita little bit, you kicked butt at
it.
And so I do know people whohave gone into interviews and
(31:04):
inflated experience that theyhave had in order to get other
positions I don't agree with it?
Hilary (31:11):
No.
Here's my opinion on this.
Two things.
One, remember that a jobdescription is an ideal person
Okay, You're never.
If you hit every singlerequirement in a job description
, you're overqualified for thejob.
Okay, so in that scenario, ifyou don't hit or you very
lightly have experience, thenthat's okay.
(31:33):
First of all, and to your point, if you have some exposure,
then you know what you're goingto be stepping into.
So, yeah, you should feelconfident, saying like I haven't
done a ton of that, but I havedone this and here's how I would
approach it in this scenario.
That's not inflating, that issaying this little experience
actually makes me qualified forall that.
Dina (31:54):
So I think, where candidates feel like they could
lie and again I don't I don'tthink anybody should lie.
That's one of my downfalls isI'm just I shoot it too straight
.
Hilary (32:02):
They say straight up lie or inflation because lie.
Dina (32:07):
So yeah, so you know what.
So don't lie, but do spend timeunderstanding why you want the
job and how you can tell yourstory relevant to why you want
the job.
Hilary (32:18):
Also, if you're the kind of person I'm not a karma
person, but if you're going toshow up and lie at your
interview, then you have to beokay if your company is lying to
you.
Whitney (32:32):
And that is not the kind of place I want to work.
Hilary (32:34):
You're right, and if I find out someone straight up
lied to me to get a job, I'mgoing to be like what else are
you comfortable not being honestabout?
I?
Dina (32:45):
mean, yeah, that's just such a bad footing to start a
relationship.
Those are not our core valueshere at Human.
No, actually, I have aninterview for a dentist position
a little bit later.
I went to dental school and Ineed to go ahead and prep for
this.
What Good luck Like good luck?
Hilary (33:03):
Yeah, so hot, I have teeth so I know how to be a
dentist Qualified.
Dina (33:09):
Don't lie.
I think I mean Figure out howto tell your story in the best
light possible.
If you're a hiring manager,tell the story the way it is.
Don't paint it pretty.
Paint a realistic picture.
Hilary (33:20):
I do think you bring up a good point.
It is an interesting reflectionof the perspective of the
relationship between employeeand employer.
If there's a perspective that ahiring manager is just going to
lie to me anyway and makeeverything sound perfect, then
there's broken trust within theemployment system.
So I would say, if you areconcerned, if you're stepping in
(33:40):
and you have a feeling that youmay want to lie because the
hiring manager is going to lie,then ask to talk to people.
And if a hiring manager is like, no, you can't meet team
members, you can't, whatever,that's a red flag.
Yeah, if you just say, hey, I'dlove to like talk to someone
about their experience, like youknow, just like 15 minutes
before or after an interview, ifthey're not willing to say,
(34:02):
sure, here is who you would workwith.
Dina (34:05):
Yeah, Okay, you just stumbled upon something
Employment references.
I've done that before.
Yes, absolutely New thing,reinvented.
But again.
Hilary (34:17):
I'm like, because I think this is probably a symptom
and we should probably do awhole podcast on this.
Good work, whitney.
Very hot topic Is if you are ata point where you feel like the
system is failing you, so you'rejust going to say, like screw
the system, I'm going to justfigure out any way to get into
this.
Why is that a system you'd wantto be in?
(34:38):
Oh yes.
And if you feel that way, thereare things you can do to
validate or educate or grow.
Don't fall into that like it'sall broken.
Who cares?
We'll just like throw thesystem out the window.
There are things you can do tobypass that and to feel better.
So, all right, yeah, Great work, Dina.
(34:58):
Wow, Wow.
Dina (35:02):
Technology is next time.
Technology, is it?
I think we're going to talkabout AI, right?
Yes, yeah.
Hilary (35:08):
Artificial intelligence.
It's going to take over my job.
It's actually just going to betwo AI systems.
Dina (35:14):
Listen, just doing the podcast next time.
I'm currently not here.
I'm at my dental interviewright now.
Whitney (35:19):
Well, Dina, you do that .
I'm going to go to mypodcasting job and tell you how
much of an expert I am at this,love it.
Dina (35:25):
Oh, yes, yes, listen, listen 100%.
Awesome Thousands of viewers Ican.
Hilary (35:32):
I can start a podcast.
I have a million.
Oh my god.
Thank you anyway.
Whitney (35:38):
Thank you dina, thank you hillary thanks whitney
thanks we'll see you guys laterbye, bye.
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