December 3, 2024 • 20 mins
And now for something completely different: reacting to TikToks.
Join us on 'Real Talk on Talent' as we unpack the controversial practice of posting 'ghost jobs' among other questionable hiring tactics. We confront the truth behind these misleading methods, contrasting them with legitimate strategies like evergreen positions and talent communities. We promise you'll walk away with a clearer understanding of what might be happening behind the scenes and how to navigate these murky waters.
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Featured TikToks:
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➡︎ @greglangstaff
➡︎ @loewhaley
➡︎ @chantalcowie
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Connect with our Team of Huemans:
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➡︎ Website: https://www.hueman.com/
➡︎ Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/@huemanps/podcasts
➡︎ LI: https://www.linkedin.com/company/hueman-people-solutions
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#hueman #talentacquisition #recruiting #recruitmentprocess #rpo
Don't forget to subscribe to the Hueman Resources Podcast Channel for more valuable insights on talent acquisition, recruiting, and workforce planning and management.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Welcome to Real Talk on Talent, a human resources
podcast where we talk abouttalent acquisition, recruiting
and all things hiring.
Hey, dina, hi, hilary, do youwant to do a special episode?
I totally do, okay, okay.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
What do you want to do?
A special episode, I totally do.
Okay, okay, what do you want todo?
I would love for us to react topeople's videos.
Is this the idea you just had?
Oh my God, yes, let's do it.
Okay, that sounds perfect.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
I think Whitney picked out some for us to look
at.
I think she did.
And then we're like I think shedid, whitney picked out some
videos for us.
She did, she did, and they'reall related to hiring and
employment.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Yes, let's watch them .
Oh, I think so.
This is gonna be great.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
All right, fine I'm sorry to have to come back to
this, but there is a concerningtrend affecting the job market
right now that everyone needs toknow about.
So companies are doingsomething right now called ghost
job postings, where they areposting jobs online with no
intention of hiring for thosepositions.
This means thousands of peopleprobably you at some point will
(01:13):
apply to a job online forabsolutely no reason and not
hear back, thinking it's yourfault, when it's not.
Companies are doing this for afew reasons.
Number one they're trying tomake it look like they're
growing and successful to maybecompetitors or other people in
the market.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Okay, have you ever?
Speaker 3 (01:29):
had a client.
No, admit to that.
Yeah, no, I've never Like, so Iknow people do.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
evergreen positions where you're constantly
recruiting for a position, butthat's because you have a steady
stream of openings you have tofill.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Yeah, I've never heard of somebody posting fake
jobs to look like they'regrowing Never.
No, I'm calling BS on this one.
I kind of want to dig into thata little bit more.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
It's an interesting thought, but when I look at it
it's like there are so many waysto validate if an individual is
growing.
Linkedin, for example, willactually say how many people
have changed roles into it, soyou could super easily disprove.
Oh, you have a thousandopenings, but you've only hired
15 people in the last threemonths.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
Yeah, so what I'm thinking about is the action,
like so there are jobs that areposted that are not actual jobs.
That has happened forever.
So like, give me an example.
Yeah, so first this idea ofevergreen requisition.
Yeah but that's a real jobthough, but not necessarily so.
(02:33):
Let's use an example that acompany, a pest control company,
is going to continuously keep atechnician job open year round.
What they're trying to do isfill up the pipeline of
candidates within there for whenthey need to do peak season
hiring.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
And two they're creating sort of a standby list
so they have some names ready incase they ever decide to.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
They need to do that differently, so companies need
to do that differently.
You should be reallytransparent that, hey, we're
building a talent pipeline.
Well, that's where a talentcommunity comes in.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Talent community, exactly Like.
That's different than having ajob position open.
But my thing is if you do hirethroughout the year, you can
have two benefits.
You can get candidates so thatyour database is being built,
but if you know that you aregoing to have to hire someone in
the next two to four weeks,that's not a lie.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
Yeah, no, I agree.
Okay but I agree with you.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
If you're trying to hire someone and you have the
benefit of building yourdatabase, nothing wrong with
that Great.
If you're trying, yeah, ifyou're actually going to pull
the trigger, if it's a natural,organic part of the process.
But if you're just trying toget people into your system, do
a talent community.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Yeah, exactly that.
One feels super self-serving.
And number three they're kindof doing the employer version of
casual job searching, wherethey are putting these job
postings out there with nointent really to hire, unless
the absolute perfect personapplies.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
That is true, that happens.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
And so.
But here's my thing with thisyeah, because I don't have.
I've never seen someone wherethey're like you know what.
I may want to upgrade mymarketing manager.
Yeah, so I'm just going toleave it continuously open
Because, unless it's a positionwhere you're constantly filling,
the odds of that employeeseeing their own position posted
(04:23):
on the website it's a highprobability.
So then you run the risk of, ifyou don't have a good person in
the role, you need to activelywork to replace them.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
Yeah, so where I actually have seen people do
this is, if it is.
I'm just going to make up a badexample here.
There's a company that employsengineers.
They have 50 engineers andthey'd like to upgrade 20 of
them, but they don't want toactively do any.
They're going to post a job andhope that they get rockstar
candidates in there, and if theydo, they'll slowly upgrade
(04:53):
those 20.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
But I think that's different, and I'll tell you why
.
I'll tell you.
Well, from the example I wastalking about, what he's saying
is like they have thesepositions open with no intent to
actually hire you.
Okay, my thing is, if you haveit open and they're like, oh,
you're a great person, if we getthe right person in, then we
(05:15):
will hire them.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
That's not a false job.
Oh, I completely agree with you.
So then there's nothing wrongwith that having it continuously
open, because you would alwayshire the right person that comes
in Completely agree with you.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
Yeah, so this guy wrong.
He positioned it wrong, wrongyeah.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
So, if you are an employer, I implore you to stop
doing this.
People are investing a lot oftime in these job applications
and, more importantly, putting alot of hope into these job
applications, which is a finiteresource when you're job
searching.
If you don't intend to givethese people a shot.
Stop posting to jobs.
He is a job seeker, if you aregetting ghosted?
No, it's very likely not yourfault.
(05:53):
Now, to optimize your chance ofactually getting hired when you
happen to apply to real jobs,check out the resume resources
in my bio.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Interesting Mixed thoughts on that one.
I think it brings up a reallyinteresting point, but I do like
some of the things that weresaid with so much confidence.
I'm like is that really thatcommon?
Or is what or is the real issuethat the employer does not have
a good internal recruitmentprocess so they're not
responding to candidates?
(06:22):
So you feel like you're beingghosted.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
So that's the whole other thing.
Yeah, I would say it's.
You're more likely to beghosted by an employer with a
really bad recruitment processthan you are by somebody doing a
ghost posting A hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Yeah, I like that Okay.
Speaker 5 (06:39):
Next one Okay, I asked a community of
professionals what one piece ofadvice was that they've learned
throughout their careers, andI'm going to share a few with
you Document everything, savework, compliments, document,
everything is one of the piecesof advice I give to people all
the time.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
Really.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Yes, oh I don't.
Speaker 5 (06:57):
Yes, listen to that.
It's in a folder to look backon when you start to doubt
yourself.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
Urgent, so well, first I will say that start to
doubt yourself.
Okay, so well, first I will saythat so I actually have kept,
like we do, core value awardsand whenever I get to get get
like somebody writes somethingnice about me, I have them and I
go back and I read them.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
But you should yes, but you should also do that.
If someone sends you an emailand it's just the subtle, like,
hey, you did a great job on thisproject or whatever Huge on
that.
But I will say, um, when I saydocument everything.
Yeah, let me hear this so oftenit comes in this idea of like,
oh, make sure you document forHR.
Yeah, not the case.
The biggest piece of advice Igive to people is I say when you
(07:31):
sit down in a meeting,especially if it's a one-on-one
with your boss, and you'reasking for feedback, or you say,
hey, I'm struggling with this.
Or like, especially in a timewhere, if you need something
from your boss and maybe you'reconcerned about it or maybe not,
whatever, um, or vice versa,like, if you're giving difficult
feedback to someone, whetherit's a peer, a direct employee,
(07:52):
it doesn't matter I always saysend a followup email.
That just it doesn't.
It can be super nice.
Like, hey, thank you so muchfor hearing me out, great
conversation, I appreciate yourinsights, whatever.
But you literally say you saywhat you talked about.
Yep, thank you for hearing meout on the feedback regarding to
your communication skills.
And here are the things, hereare the next steps.
(08:14):
And then you send it, okay,because so often I have been in
a in a situation where I'm likeI know we talked about that,
yeah, and like you want to feelyou don't want to like gaslight
yourself, to be like, well,maybe it wasn't clear enough, or
anything like that, or evenjust like you do have times
where you have to go back and belike no boss, you forgot, but
(08:35):
we talked about this, yeah, andI still need your help on this
both ways, manager and managee.
Yeah, okay, I document, I'mhuge on that.
So I think, or to put itanother way, communicate clearly
, communicate clearly.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
So what I think I'm hearing from you is
documentation to close the loop,kind of a close-the-loop
documentation, but now you havesomething that you can reference
.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Yes, it's documented, but it doesn't have to be like
on May 17th we had a 32-minutediscussion.
It does not have to be likethat.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
Yeah, I think.
What I think is an unhealthywork practice is this idea of
you have to document everythingto CYA.
That is not.
I would never tell somebody, oh, make sure you document that to
CYA.
That's just a bad workenvironment I wouldn't want to
be in.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
That's why I do it I do.
I do because it is because andthis is the other thing is
because it removes the he said,she said, and the what gets lost
in memory.
Yeah, because if you have aconversation, especially a
difficult one, and then youwrite it down and say, hey, we
talked about this, and you putit objectively, you say the
(09:39):
facts and then say, and this iswhat we talked about for next
steps, or how we're going tohandle it, what you're going to
own, what I'm going to own, it'snot putting, you're not
blasting anyone.
Yeah, but then in three months,when you continue to have
issues, then you may rememberthat conversation differently.
But I'm like, hey, not only didI write it down, but like I
sent it to you as like we talkedabout this.
So now there's something thatsays, hey, we talked about this,
(10:02):
we agreed to that.
It is a level of CYA, but notbecause I don't trust you.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
So I think that's that's the difference, is
explaining the why.
So yeah, so okay, yes, documenteverything.
Just don't tell people todocument everything from a place
of fear.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Completely, but it's just.
You know, we write our to-dolist it's just a.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Like, it's just a way to like make sure you're
remembering things.
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (10:29):
I'm in for it.
Let's do it.
Urgent and important are notsynonyms listen to understand,
not to respond.
You are replaceable at work,but not at home.
It is okay to not knoweverything.
Not all good things are goodfor you.
Things Negotiate your joboffers, always add a buffer when
giving estimates, and work issomething that you do not who
you are.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Okay, I love that.
It's what you do, not who youare.
I have stopped like in socialsettings.
I no longer ask people whatthey do, yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
At all Well, and it's it's so hard if you so strongly
identify with work.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Well, what I ask?
I say tell me about you, yeah,because then they can choose.
Do they want to tell me abouttheir job?
Do they want to tell me thatthey went traveling last week?
Do they you know?
Yeah, yeah, no, I like that.
Yeah, there was one she saidthat was oh, huge.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
Oh my God, Give buffers when giving estimates.
Yes, give buffers.
Give yourself a little bit ofgrace in your buffers.
That's a CYA as well.
Yeah, oh, I don't do CYA, Ijust do great work all the time
You're like I'm perfect, it'sfine, don't need it.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Cool, love it, love it.
Speaker 5 (11:33):
Love it Love.
Speaker 4 (11:35):
Just to give people in other countries an example of
what job descriptions inAmerica look like.
We work hard, not because wehave to, but because we want to.
We don't expect you to work24-7, but you are expected to do
what needs to be done to movethe needle in your role.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
Go ahead.
So as a marketer I have thebenefit of my job is not tied to
a nine to five desk, like ifyou're working at a front desk
or if you're a recruiter.
Your job is to be available.
So I am a big believer that youknow what.
There are times you have anevent coming up, you have a
(12:17):
campaign that's being launchedyou're going to have to put in
the time because you have aspecific job to get done.
But this whole idea of like thejob get done yeah, the absolute
, like ballsiness oh my God,it's not 24-7, but you basically
(12:38):
just need to make sure it's18-5.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
It's 18-6.
It's 18-6.
It's 18-6.
Gosh yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
I'm already sweaty from this.
This is like stressing me out.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (12:49):
All right, okay, keep going.
If you're selected to work withus, you're not accepting a
9-to-5 punch-in, punch-out joband we certainly are not a
company where you'd expect tocompletely disconnect every week
.
Stop, stop stop, stop.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
Do you not want anybody to apply to your job?
This isn't an arranged marriage.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Wow, yeah also how like for you I want to.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
There are some people who are listening to this and
they're like, yes, this job is,job is for me.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
I just Maybe there's not.
Well, I think there are peoplewho like love the grind.
Yeah, like you can't be anentrepreneur without having some
of that like grind mentality,and that's great, but especially
in a business, not everyone.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
Not everybody should need to grind all the time.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
You need your like steady eddies who show up and do
the job.
So to have this idea of like weall just going to hustle, yeah,
Then then you're understaffedand burnt out.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Yeah, oh, all right.
Speaker 4 (13:51):
Clients or team members are counting on you to
keep the ball rolling.
Although we encourage settingboundaries and creating space to
relax and recharge when youlove what you do, you don't need
to escape from work.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
Okay, unless my job is a professional online shopper
.
I need to escape from work.
What?
Speaker 2 (14:11):
What this is where I think Is such an interesting
disconnect.
I understand Again, if you'rethe owner of a company company,
or if you're a senior leader inthe company, your job is to care
about the success of thecompany.
Yes, everybody should care.
Yes, but the stakes are muchhigher if you are an owner,
(14:32):
obviously.
And when you get promoted upinto a leadership role, part of
the expectation is that you'relike you have a different.
It's part of your job now, yes,yes.
And so to have this idea thatyou want every single person to
have the same level of buy-inand the same level of commitment
, it's are you paying yourpeople the same as you'd?
Speaker 3 (14:54):
pay a leader in your company.
Yeah, as you pay yourexecutives.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Like what's?
Why would they care that much?
Speaker 3 (14:57):
Yeah, it's really bad .
Speaker 2 (15:01):
It's really like.
This is like toxic ex-boyfriendsituation.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
Like every level.
I have never met anybody who'slike oh my God, I love my job so
much I don't ever need a breakfrom it.
It doesn't matter what your jobis Like at some point you need
a break from it.
You need a break.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Like this is brainwashing.
Well, the other thing is, Ithink it misses out on.
How do you, as a manager, it ismy job to like translate
expectations to and from my teammembers.
Yes, and so I want people whoare hustlers, like if you look
(15:41):
at my team, like they'recommitted, they're hardworking,
they put in the time, they dothe work, but that doesn't mean
that they're doing it youtranslate it for the work that
they're doing.
I'm like, okay, this needs toget done.
This is the expectation.
I need you to be on top of it.
Let's do this.
Let's make it happen.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
And part of the reason people can sustain the
hustle is because of theirability to disconnect and the
ability to escape from work.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
I think hustle should only be applied to people who
are building their own thing.
Okay, I'm a big fan of hustle.
I mean, I think hustle in thesense of you do good work, you
move fast yeah, there's that,yeah.
But this whole hustle culturething, okay, unless you're
building your own company andit's like you do like this, like
you grind, like yeah no, whywould you, why would any person
(16:26):
opt to do that?
Speaker 3 (16:27):
I mean, there, there needs to be some significant
payout.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Well, there has to be , and I guess in that sense then
the hustle is cause I've Ihustled early in my career and
it yeah, and it paid off.
Yeah, but I was investing inmyself.
So this idea of like I put inthe time because I grew from it,
I had opportunities come fromit.
Yeah, but like I learned veryearly in my career that I was
not going to work all weekendlong every weekend, yeah,
(16:53):
because I was like that doesn'tfurther me, that just gets more
things off the to-do list.
So that doesn't further me,that just gets more things off
the to-do list.
So I'll hustle when I'm like,okay, this is going to again
open doors, challenge me,whatever.
But if it's just the work thatneeds to get done, I can do that
tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
Yeah, that can wait, that can wait.
Interesting.
Speaker 4 (17:11):
That's my opinion, doing what you love feels like a
vacation.
Okay, and when you do have sometime off, you're still thinking
about your work because you'reobsessed with it in a healthy
way.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
Legit, is this a job advertisement for a cult Like I?
Honestly, that's what it soundslike this is crazy.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
That's kind of I have a similar reaction when they're
like we're all family here,stop it.
Like I want to enjoy beingaround you, yes.
Like we can be friends yeah.
But this idea that like we'refamily here, yeah, stop it.
Like I want to enjoy beingaround you, yes.
Like we can be friends yeah.
But this idea that like we'refamily, like no guys, we're in a
business.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Yeah, we're in a business Like we got to like
let's have a healthy way.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
Oh my God, yeah, no, that's just awful oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Yeah, if you're like hey, I need someone who's a
hustler Like this is where it ispoint of high growth.
It's going to be high demand,it's like you're going to have
weekends or whatever.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
Yeah, so how would you describe that?
Yeah, so I've got an excitingopportunity for a person who is
very motivated to help us getthe business to the next level
in order to get here.
That's what this means.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Yeah, Boom, boom boom .
I, that's what this means, yeah, boom, boom.
I think that's it.
It's like hey, we're highgrowth, who has a bunch of big
projects yes, and you'll becompensated.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
The upside for this work is a, b.
I'm hitting your table.
The upside for this is boom,boom, boom one year when we hit
our x goal, whatever, yeah Imean show a trade-off.
You you have to show peoplewhat's in it for them.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
I agree, and I think you also have to be honest about
what jobs are actually criticalto the hustle Exactly and how
do you staff it appropriately,exactly.
Yes, because you know what.
I think that's.
The other thing that kind of isin the back of my mind is are
they doing this because?
They can get 80 hours Well it'slike you can now get 80 hours
of work out of someone, so youdon't have to hire two people.
(18:59):
Yeah Well, that's no good.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
And that's my point is saying like why is this such
a hustle?
Interesting, very interesting.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
I really want to know who this employer is.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
I wonder if you Googled her exact phrase.
I feel like we need to.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
Maybe it would pull up.
Yeah, you should contact themabout some branding work.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
It's like, hey, no, that's a cultural issue.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
That's a larger.
Oh, you know what?
You're right, yeah, that is waybigger than just branding.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Hey, dina, I'm starting a company.
Oh, yes, it's all about thehustle.
Oh, you're going to have towork like 70 hours a day.
Oh, I prefer 80.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
That's totally fine, it's within my wheel.
Wow, that was fun.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Yes, I do like our.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
that was a hot take though.
Yeah, yeah, no, it was a.
It was really good hot take.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Cool, well, dina, hey , thank you, thank you, thank
you.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
Till we meet again.
Bye, bye, bye, bye.
Welcome to Real Talk on Talent, a human resources
podcast where we talk abouttalent acquisition, recruiting
and all things hiring.
Hey, dina, hi, hilary, do youwant to do a special episode?
I totally do, okay, okay.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
What do you want to do?
A special episode, I totally do.
Okay, okay, what do you want todo?
I would love for us to react topeople's videos.
Is this the idea you just had?
Oh my God, yes, let's do it.
Okay, that sounds perfect.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
I think Whitney picked out some for us to look
at.
I think she did.
And then we're like I think shedid, whitney picked out some
videos for us.
She did, she did, and they'reall related to hiring and
employment.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Yes, let's watch them .
Oh, I think so.
This is gonna be great.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
All right, fine I'm sorry to have to come back to
this, but there is a concerningtrend affecting the job market
right now that everyone needs toknow about.
So companies are doingsomething right now called ghost
job postings, where they areposting jobs online with no
intention of hiring for thosepositions.
This means thousands of peopleprobably you at some point will
(01:13):
apply to a job online forabsolutely no reason and not
hear back, thinking it's yourfault, when it's not.
Companies are doing this for afew reasons.
Number one they're trying tomake it look like they're
growing and successful to maybecompetitors or other people in
the market.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Okay, have you ever?
Speaker 3 (01:29):
had a client.
No, admit to that.
Yeah, no, I've never Like, so Iknow people do.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
evergreen positions where you're constantly
recruiting for a position, butthat's because you have a steady
stream of openings you have tofill.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Yeah, I've never heard of somebody posting fake
jobs to look like they'regrowing Never.
No, I'm calling BS on this one.
I kind of want to dig into thata little bit more.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
It's an interesting thought, but when I look at it
it's like there are so many waysto validate if an individual is
growing.
Linkedin, for example, willactually say how many people
have changed roles into it, soyou could super easily disprove.
Oh, you have a thousandopenings, but you've only hired
15 people in the last threemonths.
Speaker 3 (02:12):
Yeah, so what I'm thinking about is the action,
like so there are jobs that areposted that are not actual jobs.
That has happened forever.
So like, give me an example.
Yeah, so first this idea ofevergreen requisition.
Yeah but that's a real jobthough, but not necessarily so.
(02:33):
Let's use an example that acompany, a pest control company,
is going to continuously keep atechnician job open year round.
What they're trying to do isfill up the pipeline of
candidates within there for whenthey need to do peak season
hiring.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
And two they're creating sort of a standby list
so they have some names ready incase they ever decide to.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
They need to do that differently, so companies need
to do that differently.
You should be reallytransparent that, hey, we're
building a talent pipeline.
Well, that's where a talentcommunity comes in.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Talent community, exactly Like.
That's different than having ajob position open.
But my thing is if you do hirethroughout the year, you can
have two benefits.
You can get candidates so thatyour database is being built,
but if you know that you aregoing to have to hire someone in
the next two to four weeks,that's not a lie.
Speaker 3 (03:24):
Yeah, no, I agree.
Okay but I agree with you.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
If you're trying to hire someone and you have the
benefit of building yourdatabase, nothing wrong with
that Great.
If you're trying, yeah, ifyou're actually going to pull
the trigger, if it's a natural,organic part of the process.
But if you're just trying toget people into your system, do
a talent community.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Yeah, exactly that.
One feels super self-serving.
And number three they're kindof doing the employer version of
casual job searching, wherethey are putting these job
postings out there with nointent really to hire, unless
the absolute perfect personapplies.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
That is true, that happens.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
And so.
But here's my thing with thisyeah, because I don't have.
I've never seen someone wherethey're like you know what.
I may want to upgrade mymarketing manager.
Yeah, so I'm just going toleave it continuously open
Because, unless it's a positionwhere you're constantly filling,
the odds of that employeeseeing their own position posted
(04:23):
on the website it's a highprobability.
So then you run the risk of, ifyou don't have a good person in
the role, you need to activelywork to replace them.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
Yeah, so where I actually have seen people do
this is, if it is.
I'm just going to make up a badexample here.
There's a company that employsengineers.
They have 50 engineers andthey'd like to upgrade 20 of
them, but they don't want toactively do any.
They're going to post a job andhope that they get rockstar
candidates in there, and if theydo, they'll slowly upgrade
(04:53):
those 20.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
But I think that's different, and I'll tell you why
.
I'll tell you.
Well, from the example I wastalking about, what he's saying
is like they have thesepositions open with no intent to
actually hire you.
Okay, my thing is, if you haveit open and they're like, oh,
you're a great person, if we getthe right person in, then we
(05:15):
will hire them.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
That's not a false job.
Oh, I completely agree with you.
So then there's nothing wrongwith that having it continuously
open, because you would alwayshire the right person that comes
in Completely agree with you.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
Yeah, so this guy wrong.
He positioned it wrong, wrongyeah.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
So, if you are an employer, I implore you to stop
doing this.
People are investing a lot oftime in these job applications
and, more importantly, putting alot of hope into these job
applications, which is a finiteresource when you're job
searching.
If you don't intend to givethese people a shot.
Stop posting to jobs.
He is a job seeker, if you aregetting ghosted?
No, it's very likely not yourfault.
(05:53):
Now, to optimize your chance ofactually getting hired when you
happen to apply to real jobs,check out the resume resources
in my bio.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Interesting Mixed thoughts on that one.
I think it brings up a reallyinteresting point, but I do like
some of the things that weresaid with so much confidence.
I'm like is that really thatcommon?
Or is what or is the real issuethat the employer does not have
a good internal recruitmentprocess so they're not
responding to candidates?
(06:22):
So you feel like you're beingghosted.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
So that's the whole other thing.
Yeah, I would say it's.
You're more likely to beghosted by an employer with a
really bad recruitment processthan you are by somebody doing a
ghost posting A hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Yeah, I like that Okay.
Speaker 5 (06:39):
Next one Okay, I asked a community of
professionals what one piece ofadvice was that they've learned
throughout their careers, andI'm going to share a few with
you Document everything, savework, compliments, document,
everything is one of the piecesof advice I give to people all
the time.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
Really.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Yes, oh I don't.
Speaker 5 (06:57):
Yes, listen to that.
It's in a folder to look backon when you start to doubt
yourself.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
Urgent, so well, first I will say that start to
doubt yourself.
Okay, so well, first I will saythat so I actually have kept,
like we do, core value awardsand whenever I get to get get
like somebody writes somethingnice about me, I have them and I
go back and I read them.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
But you should yes, but you should also do that.
If someone sends you an emailand it's just the subtle, like,
hey, you did a great job on thisproject or whatever Huge on
that.
But I will say, um, when I saydocument everything.
Yeah, let me hear this so oftenit comes in this idea of like,
oh, make sure you document forHR.
Yeah, not the case.
The biggest piece of advice Igive to people is I say when you
(07:31):
sit down in a meeting,especially if it's a one-on-one
with your boss, and you'reasking for feedback, or you say,
hey, I'm struggling with this.
Or like, especially in a timewhere, if you need something
from your boss and maybe you'reconcerned about it or maybe not,
whatever, um, or vice versa,like, if you're giving difficult
feedback to someone, whetherit's a peer, a direct employee,
(07:52):
it doesn't matter I always saysend a followup email.
That just it doesn't.
It can be super nice.
Like, hey, thank you so muchfor hearing me out, great
conversation, I appreciate yourinsights, whatever.
But you literally say you saywhat you talked about.
Yep, thank you for hearing meout on the feedback regarding to
your communication skills.
And here are the things, hereare the next steps.
(08:14):
And then you send it, okay,because so often I have been in
a in a situation where I'm likeI know we talked about that,
yeah, and like you want to feelyou don't want to like gaslight
yourself, to be like, well,maybe it wasn't clear enough, or
anything like that, or evenjust like you do have times
where you have to go back and belike no boss, you forgot, but
(08:35):
we talked about this, yeah, andI still need your help on this
both ways, manager and managee.
Yeah, okay, I document, I'mhuge on that.
So I think, or to put itanother way, communicate clearly
, communicate clearly.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
So what I think I'm hearing from you is
documentation to close the loop,kind of a close-the-loop
documentation, but now you havesomething that you can reference
.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Yes, it's documented, but it doesn't have to be like
on May 17th we had a 32-minutediscussion.
It does not have to be likethat.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
Yeah, I think.
What I think is an unhealthywork practice is this idea of
you have to document everythingto CYA.
That is not.
I would never tell somebody, oh, make sure you document that to
CYA.
That's just a bad workenvironment I wouldn't want to
be in.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
That's why I do it I do.
I do because it is because andthis is the other thing is
because it removes the he said,she said, and the what gets lost
in memory.
Yeah, because if you have aconversation, especially a
difficult one, and then youwrite it down and say, hey, we
talked about this, and you putit objectively, you say the
(09:39):
facts and then say, and this iswhat we talked about for next
steps, or how we're going tohandle it, what you're going to
own, what I'm going to own, it'snot putting, you're not
blasting anyone.
Yeah, but then in three months,when you continue to have
issues, then you may rememberthat conversation differently.
But I'm like, hey, not only didI write it down, but like I
sent it to you as like we talkedabout this.
So now there's something thatsays, hey, we talked about this,
(10:02):
we agreed to that.
It is a level of CYA, but notbecause I don't trust you.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
So I think that's that's the difference, is
explaining the why.
So yeah, so okay, yes, documenteverything.
Just don't tell people todocument everything from a place
of fear.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Completely, but it's just.
You know, we write our to-dolist it's just a.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Like, it's just a way to like make sure you're
remembering things.
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (10:29):
I'm in for it.
Let's do it.
Urgent and important are notsynonyms listen to understand,
not to respond.
You are replaceable at work,but not at home.
It is okay to not knoweverything.
Not all good things are goodfor you.
Things Negotiate your joboffers, always add a buffer when
giving estimates, and work issomething that you do not who
you are.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Okay, I love that.
It's what you do, not who youare.
I have stopped like in socialsettings.
I no longer ask people whatthey do, yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
At all Well, and it's it's so hard if you so strongly
identify with work.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Well, what I ask?
I say tell me about you, yeah,because then they can choose.
Do they want to tell me abouttheir job?
Do they want to tell me thatthey went traveling last week?
Do they you know?
Yeah, yeah, no, I like that.
Yeah, there was one she saidthat was oh, huge.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
Oh my God, Give buffers when giving estimates.
Yes, give buffers.
Give yourself a little bit ofgrace in your buffers.
That's a CYA as well.
Yeah, oh, I don't do CYA, Ijust do great work all the time
You're like I'm perfect, it'sfine, don't need it.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Cool, love it, love it.
Speaker 5 (11:33):
Love it Love.
Speaker 4 (11:35):
Just to give people in other countries an example of
what job descriptions inAmerica look like.
We work hard, not because wehave to, but because we want to.
We don't expect you to work24-7, but you are expected to do
what needs to be done to movethe needle in your role.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
Go ahead.
So as a marketer I have thebenefit of my job is not tied to
a nine to five desk, like ifyou're working at a front desk
or if you're a recruiter.
Your job is to be available.
So I am a big believer that youknow what.
There are times you have anevent coming up, you have a
(12:17):
campaign that's being launchedyou're going to have to put in
the time because you have aspecific job to get done.
But this whole idea of like thejob get done yeah, the absolute
, like ballsiness oh my God,it's not 24-7, but you basically
(12:38):
just need to make sure it's18-5.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
It's 18-6.
It's 18-6.
It's 18-6.
Gosh yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
I'm already sweaty from this.
This is like stressing me out.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (12:49):
All right, okay, keep going.
If you're selected to work withus, you're not accepting a
9-to-5 punch-in, punch-out joband we certainly are not a
company where you'd expect tocompletely disconnect every week
.
Stop, stop stop, stop.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
Do you not want anybody to apply to your job?
This isn't an arranged marriage.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Wow, yeah also how like for you I want to.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
There are some people who are listening to this and
they're like, yes, this job is,job is for me.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
I just Maybe there's not.
Well, I think there are peoplewho like love the grind.
Yeah, like you can't be anentrepreneur without having some
of that like grind mentality,and that's great, but especially
in a business, not everyone.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
Not everybody should need to grind all the time.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
You need your like steady eddies who show up and do
the job.
So to have this idea of like weall just going to hustle, yeah,
Then then you're understaffedand burnt out.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Yeah, oh, all right.
Speaker 4 (13:51):
Clients or team members are counting on you to
keep the ball rolling.
Although we encourage settingboundaries and creating space to
relax and recharge when youlove what you do, you don't need
to escape from work.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
Okay, unless my job is a professional online shopper
.
I need to escape from work.
What?
Speaker 2 (14:11):
What this is where I think Is such an interesting
disconnect.
I understand Again, if you'rethe owner of a company company,
or if you're a senior leader inthe company, your job is to care
about the success of thecompany.
Yes, everybody should care.
Yes, but the stakes are muchhigher if you are an owner,
(14:32):
obviously.
And when you get promoted upinto a leadership role, part of
the expectation is that you'relike you have a different.
It's part of your job now, yes,yes.
And so to have this idea thatyou want every single person to
have the same level of buy-inand the same level of commitment
, it's are you paying yourpeople the same as you'd?
Speaker 3 (14:54):
pay a leader in your company.
Yeah, as you pay yourexecutives.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Like what's?
Why would they care that much?
Speaker 3 (14:57):
Yeah, it's really bad .
Speaker 2 (15:01):
It's really like.
This is like toxic ex-boyfriendsituation.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
Like every level.
I have never met anybody who'slike oh my God, I love my job so
much I don't ever need a breakfrom it.
It doesn't matter what your jobis Like at some point you need
a break from it.
You need a break.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Like this is brainwashing.
Well, the other thing is, Ithink it misses out on.
How do you, as a manager, it ismy job to like translate
expectations to and from my teammembers.
Yes, and so I want people whoare hustlers, like if you look
(15:41):
at my team, like they'recommitted, they're hardworking,
they put in the time, they dothe work, but that doesn't mean
that they're doing it youtranslate it for the work that
they're doing.
I'm like, okay, this needs toget done.
This is the expectation.
I need you to be on top of it.
Let's do this.
Let's make it happen.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
And part of the reason people can sustain the
hustle is because of theirability to disconnect and the
ability to escape from work.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
I think hustle should only be applied to people who
are building their own thing.
Okay, I'm a big fan of hustle.
I mean, I think hustle in thesense of you do good work, you
move fast yeah, there's that,yeah.
But this whole hustle culturething, okay, unless you're
building your own company andit's like you do like this, like
you grind, like yeah no, whywould you, why would any person
(16:26):
opt to do that?
Speaker 3 (16:27):
I mean, there, there needs to be some significant
payout.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Well, there has to be , and I guess in that sense then
the hustle is cause I've Ihustled early in my career and
it yeah, and it paid off.
Yeah, but I was investing inmyself.
So this idea of like I put inthe time because I grew from it,
I had opportunities come fromit.
Yeah, but like I learned veryearly in my career that I was
not going to work all weekendlong every weekend, yeah,
(16:53):
because I was like that doesn'tfurther me, that just gets more
things off the to-do list.
So that doesn't further me,that just gets more things off
the to-do list.
So I'll hustle when I'm like,okay, this is going to again
open doors, challenge me,whatever.
But if it's just the work thatneeds to get done, I can do that
tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
Yeah, that can wait, that can wait.
Interesting.
Speaker 4 (17:11):
That's my opinion, doing what you love feels like a
vacation.
Okay, and when you do have sometime off, you're still thinking
about your work because you'reobsessed with it in a healthy
way.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
Legit, is this a job advertisement for a cult Like I?
Honestly, that's what it soundslike this is crazy.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
That's kind of I have a similar reaction when they're
like we're all family here,stop it.
Like I want to enjoy beingaround you, yes.
Like we can be friends yeah.
But this idea that like we'refamily here, yeah, stop it.
Like I want to enjoy beingaround you, yes.
Like we can be friends yeah.
But this idea that like we'refamily, like no guys, we're in a
business.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Yeah, we're in a business Like we got to like
let's have a healthy way.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
Oh my God, yeah, no, that's just awful oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Yeah, if you're like hey, I need someone who's a
hustler Like this is where it ispoint of high growth.
It's going to be high demand,it's like you're going to have
weekends or whatever.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
Yeah, so how would you describe that?
Yeah, so I've got an excitingopportunity for a person who is
very motivated to help us getthe business to the next level
in order to get here.
That's what this means.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
Yeah, Boom, boom boom .
I, that's what this means, yeah, boom, boom.
I think that's it.
It's like hey, we're highgrowth, who has a bunch of big
projects yes, and you'll becompensated.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
The upside for this work is a, b.
I'm hitting your table.
The upside for this is boom,boom, boom one year when we hit
our x goal, whatever, yeah Imean show a trade-off.
You you have to show peoplewhat's in it for them.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
I agree, and I think you also have to be honest about
what jobs are actually criticalto the hustle Exactly and how
do you staff it appropriately,exactly.
Yes, because you know what.
I think that's.
The other thing that kind of isin the back of my mind is are
they doing this because?
They can get 80 hours Well it'slike you can now get 80 hours
of work out of someone, so youdon't have to hire two people.
(18:59):
Yeah Well, that's no good.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
And that's my point is saying like why is this such
a hustle?
Interesting, very interesting.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
I really want to know who this employer is.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
I wonder if you Googled her exact phrase.
I feel like we need to.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
Maybe it would pull up.
Yeah, you should contact themabout some branding work.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
It's like, hey, no, that's a cultural issue.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
That's a larger.
Oh, you know what?
You're right, yeah, that is waybigger than just branding.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Hey, dina, I'm starting a company.
Oh, yes, it's all about thehustle.
Oh, you're going to have towork like 70 hours a day.
Oh, I prefer 80.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
That's totally fine, it's within my wheel.
Wow, that was fun.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Yes, I do like our.
Speaker 3 (19:38):
that was a hot take though.
Yeah, yeah, no, it was a.
It was really good hot take.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Cool, well, dina, hey , thank you, thank you, thank
you.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
Till we meet again.
Bye, bye, bye, bye.
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