September 26, 2024 • 23 mins
Can a great story change the perception of being a public school teacher? Discover how talent branding and recruitment marketing can address the teacher shortage crisis in public schools. Despite the inflexible pay structures and other constraints, we explore creative strategies to attract and retain talent. Tune in for an insightful discussion on navigating recruitment challenges creatively and effectively.
➡︎ Watch on YouTube: https://youtu.be/Mo3oBrRliwA?si=gTYNG7240wpxexQL
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Links & Mentions:
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➡︎ Hubspot Database Decay
➡︎ How To Implement the Right Strategies for Teacher Recruitment
➡︎ Teacher Salary, Career and Benefits Guide
➡︎ Teacher Case Study: “The cause of the teacher shortage is teachers leaving primarily within their first 3-5 years, not a lack of new people entering the profession. For example, my former district just raised the new teacher salary to $60k, but a teacher entering the district with 25 years of experience would make roughly $75k. Make it make sense.”
“On a related note, teacher turnover should be a major factor in school evaluations by the states/districts. If a third of your staff quit every year, that’s a glaring red flag that someone needs to step in and make meaningful change.” —Easy-Trust786
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Connect with our Team of Huemans:
===========================
➡︎ Website: https://www.hueman.com/
➡︎ Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/@huemanps/podcasts
➡︎ LI: https://www.linkedin.com/company/hueman-people-solutions
===========================
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to Real Talk on Talent, a human resources
podcast where we talk abouttalent acquisition, recruiting
and all things hiring.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Hey, Hillary, Hi.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Tina, how are you?
I'm great.
How are you doing?
Speaker 2 (00:24):
I'm good Welcome back , thank you Pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
You know it's always a pleasure with how are you, I'm
great.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
How are you doing?
I'm good.
Welcome back.
Thank you, pleasure to be here,you know it's always a pleasure
with you.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
I'll tell you what I feel like we say some variation
of this, but it's like genuinelytrue every time.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
You know what.
We just have fun together.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
I just want to say I would not do this podcast with
anybody else?
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Oh no, no possible way.
And if we didn't have Whitneyhere, yeah, forget about it,
we'd just be sitting in a room.
I mean why is Flavor Flav who'son next week?
But that's neither here northere.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
If you don't get the Flavor Flav reference, go watch
our last podcast.
There we go, there we go Love,that yeah we are talking about
marketing today.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
We are, we are, and I think we're going to take an
interesting position on it.
We're in a little.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
So school's coming back.
School is coming back, and sowe wanted to use the case study
of the teacher shortage to talkabout branding, recruitment,
marketing, ways to tap into likea difficult candidate, like
hard to find candidate.
Yes, because the governmentwhich we're talking about public
(01:25):
school education everybody hasan opinion about the government
and everyone has a very strongopinion about government
employees.
So how do you recruit verydifficult positions when there's
not a lot you can do to changeyour public persona and you're
(01:45):
competing against a bunch ofprivate institutions competing
industries.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
So a very similar story to this could be
recruiting nurses for the VAhealthcare system.
Yeah same equally difficultsame challenges.
So positions where you arelooking for people with certain
experience, certain expertise,are looking for people with
certain experience, certainexpertise, to come work in
fields where there is a knownshortage and perhaps the
(02:11):
employer may not have the moststerling reputation or there may
be limitations that are wellknown, yes and well publicized.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
I think the limitations is probably a big
thing, because a lot of timeswhen we talk to employers, we
say like, okay, how do you getcreative?
How do you rethink yourcompensation, rethink your
benefits, how do you think aboutthe interesting, like any ways
that you can make employmentlife different?
But the one core function ofthe government is that it's very
(02:39):
structured.
There are pay grades that are.
There's no flexibility.
It is what it is.
And so then what do you do?
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Interesting question.
Well, you're the marketer,Hillary.
I thought that you were goingto tell us.
And that concludes the podcast.
Good luck, no, I mean.
So it really is interesting,like how, and I'm not saying
that being a public schoolteacher is not a desirable job.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Listen my number well , probably my number one hot
button issue is the fact that wedo not fund our education
systems appropriately so we arepro public school teachers.
Yes, 100%.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
We'll just be very clear on that yeah, public
school graduate Woo Woo Same.
There we go, but you know so,here in Florida, just in general
, we know it's difficult torecruit teachers.
What can organizations do tohelp make positions that are
known to be difficult moreappealing?
Speaker 1 (03:36):
So you said organizations.
I'm going to speak about thegovernment, because they're
actually doing some things thatare interesting but not really
surprising in the context of allthe discussions we've had about
like candidates in our worldWe'd find it very familiar.
So just for some context, we'vehad issues with teacher
(03:56):
shortages for a while, but COVIDexacerbated it.
I think there was somethingthat said it was.
I think we've lost 10% of theteacher workforce since COVID
hit.
And so with that you thinkabout what are the?
So let me ask you, when I talkabout a public school teaching
(04:18):
position, what do you anticipatethat looks like?
What is the stereotype that youimmediately think of?
Speaker 2 (04:24):
I think it's a tough job, why?
I think it's demanding.
I think in Florida at least,and in the South, compensation
isn't good, they're underpaidfor what they're doing.
You hear about violence in theschools these days, which is a
concern.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
So lack of compensation, lack of support,
difficult, high demand, and it'sall kind of getting worse when
you think about inflation andyou think about if you lose 10%
of your workforce, then thatputs extra burden on the
teachers, all that kind of stuff, right.
So the government has somespecific programs that they're
(05:03):
doing right now and they'refocused on competitive pay, okay
.
So that's one of the big thingsis looking and saying how do we
make it competitive?
How do we look at supportingthat?
Looking at support staff, okay.
So one of the interesting statsI was reading about said that
even though we are down onteachers, there are actually
(05:24):
more employees in schools todaythan there were before COVID,
because there are more nurses,there are more admin roles,
there are more special educationsupport networks.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
So really, how do you adjust the role or how do you
support the role differently inorder to get more value from the
teacher?
Speaker 1 (05:43):
type position.
How do you alleviate thatburden?
You can't necessarily justcrank up pay rates, because
everything is within a matrixsystem.
But if you can alleviate theburden of how many hands are
there to help with the studentsor they're also doing, they're
increasing the planning support.
So if you about like a highdemand job, so if you have more
(06:08):
hands to help and you have moresupport in making in, in
planning and actually doing yourjob, then that alleviates the
burden.
So then it kind of balances outthe low compensation in some
ways.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
So I'm just thinking of parallels that are kind of
related but not really related.
It's similar to how do wesupport recruiters to make
recruiters more effective,dealing with more hiring
managers, and what you want isyour recruiter dealing with the
hiring manager, but what is thebehind the scenes support that
(06:41):
you can provide them?
So sourcing support, interviewcoordination, et cetera.
So kind of the same thing.
How do we have the teacherdoing the teaching, but what are
the other layers we can providethem to?
Absolutely Okay.
Yeah, I get it.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
One thing I do I am curious about, though, is in
thinking about these programsthat are set up to support
teachers.
Oh, the other thing that, ofcourse, hit exactly in the same
way looking at increasing thediversity of their uh teacher
pipeline, and not just in likehaving an increased pipeline of
potential teachers to bettermatch what the student
populations look like, but alsothinking about the various skill
(07:20):
sets, like special educationteachers.
How do you pipeline that alittle more aggressively?
And we talk about that all thetime, um, but one thing I am
curious about is how are all ofthese efforts resonating with
their, their population?
yeah, because we know the targetcandidate yeah, yes, because
when we think about us for thepast years, we've hired a lot of
(07:43):
teachers to become recruiters.
Teachers make great recruiters.
They do, yeah, but this is theproblem is now, public schools
are fighting not just againstcharter schools and other
districts.
They're fighting against careerchanges.
What would you do If you werein charge of the government?
Let's not go down tooaggressively with that because I
(08:04):
apologize.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
The election is coming up, so you look very
professional.
I am a professionalbusinesswoman, so this is what I
would expect.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
So let's say you couldn't change your budget.
I've laid out the facts there.
How would you get in front ofyour candidates and change that
perception of being a publicschool?
Speaker 2 (08:22):
teacher, so I'm leaning heavy into storytelling
here.
Please, that's what I'm doing.
I'm so proud of you by the way.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
So first, what I want to do is wow, I'm not the
marketer, but I'm going to ownthis answer.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
That's why I asked.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
So I want to find teachers who absolutely love
their jobs and I want them totell the world why they love
their jobs.
I think that people don'tunderstand the impact that
teachers can make, and I thinkif we can make that impact
tangible to potential candidates, I think that helps in the
interest and conversion of them.
(08:55):
So I want some really goodstorytelling.
I want videos about teachersand the impacts that they've
made.
I also want to hear fromstudents.
I want to hear from studentsabout how a teacher positively
impacted them.
I actually have a story thatthey've made.
I also want to hear fromstudents.
I wanna hear from studentsabout how a teacher positively
impacted them.
I actually have a story thatI'll share right now.
Oh, yes, this is a great one.
So probably about a month ago,my high school history teacher
(09:18):
tracked me down I hadn't talkedto him in 20 years tracked me
down and said I was cleaning outmy garage.
I found an old project of yoursDo you want the project back?
And he sent me a picture of itand it was.
The project was where Iinterviewed my mother and it had
a picture of me and my motheron the cover of it.
My mom passed away two yearsago and so this is something
(09:41):
that I would have never seen,never had.
So amazing.
And I'm just sitting here goingGod, this guy, what a great,
freaking teacher he was and I'mlike what other students did he
reach out to and just kind ofbrought this little gem you know
back, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
And so like that.
Thank you for sharing that.
Yeah, and now that picture's onyour Mr Bond, by the way.
Mr Bond, yeah, shout out to MrBond, thank you, and that
picture's on your desk.
Now it is on my desk.
Yeah, it's so great.
And I completely agree thosestories and those pieces of it.
The other thing that I wouldlike, when I think about what I
would do and think about someparallels, potentially for like
other hiring managers or TAleaders, is yes, you want to
(10:21):
tell the impact stories.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Yes, Impact stories.
There we go.
Marketing term that's mymarketing term.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
I guess I like it Today.
I think most people who areteachers know that because there
is that passion that's going in.
I would also then say, okay, ifthey know, if they're sold on
the story, but where do theyhave the biggest roadblocks to
being able to focus on that intheir day-to-day?
(10:48):
How do you help them recognizethe investments that you are
making to support them?
So how do you, through yournetworks, through your
interviewing, through yourpipelining, to like on education
, like systems a lot of statesare actually starting to create
their own talent by having morelike apprenticeship pipelines
and things like that.
(11:09):
So, if you help them understandnot just this is a path for you
, but here's how we're going toenable you with debt relief,
with making sure you have theright ratios to students, how do
you help craft the insight ofwe hear you, we see you, we know
what you care about, we knowthe burdens that you're going to
have to carry.
Here's what we're doing tosupport you through that.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
So I love that you said this.
So this reminds me of I don'tknow a couple of podcasts ago,
where we were talking aboutemployers putting their best
foot forward and a realistic jobpreview.
So to me, this is a reallygreat opportunity for public
schools to say, hey, listen,here are some of the challenges
that we've heard, and justaddress it head on.
(11:52):
Let me tell you what we'redoing.
So when you become a publicschool teacher with us, we're
going to help you in this way,this way, this way.
So I love it, you know, I meanhit it on the head.
Here's what we're doing tosupport you.
Here's what it looks like.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
I also think you're never going to be able to change
that perspective of like,working for the government
Because, again, like, if youthink back to when you talk
about what is a talent, identity, it's every single interaction
that you have, for positive ornegative, and we interact with
the government in every like.
All of these different ways totry and change that identity is
(12:25):
something that I think would bea lesson in futility, is
something that I think would bea lesson in futility.
But so I'm going to challengethat, in that I can easily
separate education andgovernment and that's where I
was going with it saying how doyou then create that identity at
the district level?
There we go, so I kind of thinkabout this like, if you it's
like oh, you know you talk aboutlike corporate.
(12:45):
Yeah, it's like, oh yeah,corporate's like that.
Yeah, but like here's what ouroffice is like you know big
organizations.
I think it's that kind ofperspective of saying there are
always going to be thisconnotation here, but the
reality is that you deal withthis superintendent, this is the
PTA, and here is how thecommunity kind of plays into
this larger thing.
So it's like reframing theactual experience, because I
(13:08):
completely yeah, we're sayingthe same thing.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Interesting?
Yes, we are.
It's because we're both likesuper smart.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
It's like one brain Mensa.
There we go.
Okay, we really struggled to becreative on how smart we are.
We're like, yes, brains, smartMensa.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
So here's what I would like to say.
So I think we've talked aboutthere is kind of the whole
advertising play, impactbranding, impact stories, as
Hillary said.
There is the interview andrecruitment process.
Let's do a realistic jobpreview, let's talk about what
the known or the perceivedchallenges are and let's address
(13:49):
them head on with our solutions.
So those are tips that reallyany organization can apply when
they have let's call itknowingly difficult positions to
recruit for.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Also, can I make a plug?
Yeah, please fund your schools.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Oh yeah, and keep your local schools too.
They're trying to shut down alittle local school in my
community.
Oh no, yeah, it breaks my heart.
Not enough kids, that's whatthey say.
And yet, ironically, last timeyou told us about the flyer.
Yeah well, that's because I'mgetting advertisements.
You're right for privateschools, I might be part of your
problem.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Know your community, know your target audience.
There we go, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
AB Elementary.
I'm with you, aw, just want tosay that.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Schools are great, yeah, yeah, schools are great,
yeah, any other?
Speaker 2 (14:33):
thoughts on that?
No, I just think that they'rehere.
Any other thoughts?
No, but yes, let me continue.
So time is all back into talent.
It is really important thatpeople understand if a position
is challenging, be upfront aboutit, but also talk about what
your plans are to make it better.
And I think that's kind of themajor lesson from the teacher
(14:54):
shortage discussion today.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Thank you, it's been a minute since we've had that.
(15:56):
Oh, it gave me joy.
So last time we were talkingabout data and you asked when
does data go bad?
And it reminded me of a studythat I read from HubSpot and I
threw out a number that I wasn'ttoo far off, but we wanted to
give the exact number.
But it said in a 12 monthperiod of time, your data will
(16:18):
deplete or depreciate by about25%.
So every 12 months, about aquarter of your data is bad.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Hey, fyi, open to best practices on staying on top
of data, like keeping it cleanand up to date and all of that.
You want them now?
No, okay, just FYI.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
I think well and I do want to make a side note that
the fact that you are payingattention to it is half the
battle.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
There we go.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
There we go.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Yeah, alright, okay Cool.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Are we hot taking?
Hot hot takes for hot topics,not hot my favorite.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
Oh, this is actually a hot take from a teacher, so I
just I'm going to read what shesays and I would love to hear
your thoughts on it.
So her hot take is the cause ofthe teacher shortage is
teachers leaving, primarilywithin their three to first
three to five years, not a lackof new people entering the
(17:21):
profession.
For example, my former, formerdistrict just raised the new
teacher salary to sixty thousanddollars.
District just raised the newteacher salary to $60,000.
But a teacher entering thedistrict with 25 years of
experience would make roughly$75,000.
Make it make sense.
On a related note, teacherturnover should be a major
factor in school evaluations bythe states or districts.
(17:43):
If a third of your staff quitsevery year, that's a glaring red
flag that someone needs to stepin and make meaningful change.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Yeah, I don't know if I agree with that.
Go ahead.
Well, so is it to clarify whenthey say turnover, are they
leaving the industry or are theyjust leaving that particular
school?
Did they clarify?
I'm gonna assume that they justleft that particular school.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
I mean 35% turnover if a third's leaving, it's
probably not that bad third,within the first three years.
So I think there's a couple ofthings here.
So first they talked aboutpeople are leaving the
profession within the firstthree to five years.
Is that what we heard?
Yeah, which is different.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Which is different.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
I know, I want to talk about that.
Not surprised by that, though?
I think a lot of people.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
I don't think that people have professions now the
way they did historically, sothat's company longevity I don't
think those are things that areas, and that's where, and
that's where I was going for itis saying that, um, we have
younger generations.
The people who are joining nowtend to be in the younger
generation.
They might be a second careertype of thing, but still they're
(18:54):
going to be younger.
The expectation on longevity isvery different and, granted, I
think school dynamics aredifferent than like business or
corporation dynamics, but to me,I think it's unfair to hold a
school If you use turnovermetrics within the first, let's
say, three years, let's say thatthree-year mark, I don't know
if it's fair to then hold theschools accountable to that,
(19:16):
because that might also just bea change in expectation.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Yeah you know, here we go.
This harkens back to our lastpodcast, using data without
context.
So I think that, yes, you canhold schools accountable to
turnover, but you have tounderstand what type of turnover
you're looking for.
You have to understand what thebaseline is, but you have to
understand what type of turnoveryou're looking for.
You have to understand what thebaseline is and you have to
understand historicals Correct.
And then you need to look atindustry benchmarking.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Great, great point.
But to just slap a label oflike turnover is bad.
I mean, here's the other thing,and I've actually seen this.
I'm not trying to throw anyoneunder the bus.
They'll never see this, I'msure.
But I have a couple cousinswho've recently.
By the way, I have 40 firstcousins, so I have many cousins.
I have a couple who-.
(20:02):
That's a lot, that's a lot ofcousins and I have a couple who
started into careers with veryspecific career paths, education
requirements, et cetera.
And then they've gotten intothe career and they're like, oh
yeah, like this isn't reallywhat I thought it was going to
be.
And now there's this moment oflike well, I've jumped into this
(20:26):
.
Now what?
I think we need to be better atsetting expectations of what
careers are Like.
Not just a realistic jobpreview of like what is this job
going to look like?
But think about the educationsystem.
What does a teaching careerlook like?
What is it like?
How often are you actually infront of kids and how often are
(20:46):
you doing planning schedules andhow much do you have to deal
with the principal of yourschool?
What does that look like?
Where is the expectation forthe PTA plays in and how are you
going to have to deal with theprincipal of your school?
What does that look like?
Where is the expectation forthe PTA plays in and how are you
going to have to work with them?
Because those are all verydifferent expectations and
dynamics that if you thought youwere just going to be able to
spend all day growing youngminds, you may hate all those
(21:07):
other things Interesting.
So the fix may not be entirelyon the school district.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
That will, and I think we're going to see that
across a lot of different typesof careers.
You know, I think it's going tobe the same thing.
It's this evolution, you know,I I mean how many kids go to
school, go to college and studysome degree and then never work
in that degree?
A lot of them.
You don't know as much planningand as much information as we
(21:36):
want to give somebody.
Oftentimes you can't make adecision until you've actually
experienced it yourself.
So you know, there is theexperiential part of all this.
Experiential.
There we go, dang it Close.
I left out a syllable, right.
Okay, I need a cup of coffee, Imean listen, you know, We'll
(21:57):
get you one but not before wefinish this podcast.
That's it.
Coffee break.
That's a wrap I need my coffee.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Nope, that's yeah I agree and I think this is the
other thing?
Going back to saying thegovernment has a lot of these
like structures and and, becauseyou can't run a government of
our size without very specificstructures and rules.
But are there certain tippingpoints of saying, okay, this is
no longer working?
Now what?
(22:21):
I will say one thing.
So one of my aunts she wentback for a second career to get
her teaching degree afterworking in the corporate world
and she worked at a school.
I thought this was interestingand I thought about this in the
context of turnover.
In three years, her school wasset up where she was assigned a
(22:43):
class in first grade and thenwas with them first, second,
third, fourth, fifth, sixth,until they went.
They moved on, and so you endup creating these really close
relationships with these kidsand so they would do these
cycles.
Yeah, I don't know what thetheory was behind that.
(23:04):
I don't know.
I mean, it's obviously not themost common thing.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
But that might be one of those ways to think, being
creative within the framework oflimitations you may have.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Yeah, no, I like that .
Is that I get what you'resaying?
Speaker 1 (23:16):
No, yeah, I'm not advocating for that, I'm just
saying it's one of those thingsI think about.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
No, that is, it's interesting.
Yeah, got to work with what youhave.
Thanks for being here, dina.
Thank you, hilary.
Okay, bye.
Welcome to Real Talk on Talent, a human resources
podcast where we talk abouttalent acquisition, recruiting
and all things hiring.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Hey, Hillary, Hi.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Tina, how are you?
I'm great.
How are you doing?
Speaker 2 (00:24):
I'm good Welcome back , thank you Pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
You know it's always a pleasure with how are you, I'm
great.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
How are you doing?
I'm good.
Welcome back.
Thank you, pleasure to be here,you know it's always a pleasure
with you.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
I'll tell you what I feel like we say some variation
of this, but it's like genuinelytrue every time.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
You know what.
We just have fun together.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
I just want to say I would not do this podcast with
anybody else?
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Oh no, no possible way.
And if we didn't have Whitneyhere, yeah, forget about it,
we'd just be sitting in a room.
I mean why is Flavor Flav who'son next week?
But that's neither here northere.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
If you don't get the Flavor Flav reference, go watch
our last podcast.
There we go, there we go Love,that yeah we are talking about
marketing today.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
We are, we are, and I think we're going to take an
interesting position on it.
We're in a little.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
So school's coming back.
School is coming back, and sowe wanted to use the case study
of the teacher shortage to talkabout branding, recruitment,
marketing, ways to tap into likea difficult candidate, like
hard to find candidate.
Yes, because the governmentwhich we're talking about public
(01:25):
school education everybody hasan opinion about the government
and everyone has a very strongopinion about government
employees.
So how do you recruit verydifficult positions when there's
not a lot you can do to changeyour public persona and you're
(01:45):
competing against a bunch ofprivate institutions competing
industries.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
So a very similar story to this could be
recruiting nurses for the VAhealthcare system.
Yeah same equally difficultsame challenges.
So positions where you arelooking for people with certain
experience, certain expertise,are looking for people with
certain experience, certainexpertise, to come work in
fields where there is a knownshortage and perhaps the
(02:11):
employer may not have the moststerling reputation or there may
be limitations that are wellknown, yes and well publicized.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
I think the limitations is probably a big
thing, because a lot of timeswhen we talk to employers, we
say like, okay, how do you getcreative?
How do you rethink yourcompensation, rethink your
benefits, how do you think aboutthe interesting, like any ways
that you can make employmentlife different?
But the one core function ofthe government is that it's very
(02:39):
structured.
There are pay grades that are.
There's no flexibility.
It is what it is.
And so then what do you do?
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Interesting question.
Well, you're the marketer,Hillary.
I thought that you were goingto tell us.
And that concludes the podcast.
Good luck, no, I mean.
So it really is interesting,like how, and I'm not saying
that being a public schoolteacher is not a desirable job.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Listen my number well , probably my number one hot
button issue is the fact that wedo not fund our education
systems appropriately so we arepro public school teachers.
Yes, 100%.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
We'll just be very clear on that yeah, public
school graduate Woo Woo Same.
There we go, but you know so,here in Florida, just in general
, we know it's difficult torecruit teachers.
What can organizations do tohelp make positions that are
known to be difficult moreappealing?
Speaker 1 (03:36):
So you said organizations.
I'm going to speak about thegovernment, because they're
actually doing some things thatare interesting but not really
surprising in the context of allthe discussions we've had about
like candidates in our worldWe'd find it very familiar.
So just for some context, we'vehad issues with teacher
(03:56):
shortages for a while, but COVIDexacerbated it.
I think there was somethingthat said it was.
I think we've lost 10% of theteacher workforce since COVID
hit.
And so with that you thinkabout what are the?
So let me ask you, when I talkabout a public school teaching
(04:18):
position, what do you anticipatethat looks like?
What is the stereotype that youimmediately think of?
Speaker 2 (04:24):
I think it's a tough job, why?
I think it's demanding.
I think in Florida at least,and in the South, compensation
isn't good, they're underpaidfor what they're doing.
You hear about violence in theschools these days, which is a
concern.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
So lack of compensation, lack of support,
difficult, high demand, and it'sall kind of getting worse when
you think about inflation andyou think about if you lose 10%
of your workforce, then thatputs extra burden on the
teachers, all that kind of stuff, right.
So the government has somespecific programs that they're
(05:03):
doing right now and they'refocused on competitive pay, okay
.
So that's one of the big thingsis looking and saying how do we
make it competitive?
How do we look at supportingthat?
Looking at support staff, okay.
So one of the interesting statsI was reading about said that
even though we are down onteachers, there are actually
(05:24):
more employees in schools todaythan there were before COVID,
because there are more nurses,there are more admin roles,
there are more special educationsupport networks.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
So really, how do you adjust the role or how do you
support the role differently inorder to get more value from the
teacher?
Speaker 1 (05:43):
type position.
How do you alleviate thatburden?
You can't necessarily justcrank up pay rates, because
everything is within a matrixsystem.
But if you can alleviate theburden of how many hands are
there to help with the studentsor they're also doing, they're
increasing the planning support.
So if you about like a highdemand job, so if you have more
(06:08):
hands to help and you have moresupport in making in, in
planning and actually doing yourjob, then that alleviates the
burden.
So then it kind of balances outthe low compensation in some
ways.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
So I'm just thinking of parallels that are kind of
related but not really related.
It's similar to how do wesupport recruiters to make
recruiters more effective,dealing with more hiring
managers, and what you want isyour recruiter dealing with the
hiring manager, but what is thebehind the scenes support that
(06:41):
you can provide them?
So sourcing support, interviewcoordination, et cetera.
So kind of the same thing.
How do we have the teacherdoing the teaching, but what are
the other layers we can providethem to?
Absolutely Okay.
Yeah, I get it.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
One thing I do I am curious about, though, is in
thinking about these programsthat are set up to support
teachers.
Oh, the other thing that, ofcourse, hit exactly in the same
way looking at increasing thediversity of their uh teacher
pipeline, and not just in likehaving an increased pipeline of
potential teachers to bettermatch what the student
populations look like, but alsothinking about the various skill
(07:20):
sets, like special educationteachers.
How do you pipeline that alittle more aggressively?
And we talk about that all thetime, um, but one thing I am
curious about is how are all ofthese efforts resonating with
their, their population?
yeah, because we know the targetcandidate yeah, yes, because
when we think about us for thepast years, we've hired a lot of
(07:43):
teachers to become recruiters.
Teachers make great recruiters.
They do, yeah, but this is theproblem is now, public schools
are fighting not just againstcharter schools and other
districts.
They're fighting against careerchanges.
What would you do If you werein charge of the government?
Let's not go down tooaggressively with that because I
(08:04):
apologize.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
The election is coming up, so you look very
professional.
I am a professionalbusinesswoman, so this is what I
would expect.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
So let's say you couldn't change your budget.
I've laid out the facts there.
How would you get in front ofyour candidates and change that
perception of being a publicschool?
Speaker 2 (08:22):
teacher, so I'm leaning heavy into storytelling
here.
Please, that's what I'm doing.
I'm so proud of you by the way.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
So first, what I want to do is wow, I'm not the
marketer, but I'm going to ownthis answer.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
That's why I asked.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
So I want to find teachers who absolutely love
their jobs and I want them totell the world why they love
their jobs.
I think that people don'tunderstand the impact that
teachers can make, and I thinkif we can make that impact
tangible to potential candidates, I think that helps in the
interest and conversion of them.
(08:55):
So I want some really goodstorytelling.
I want videos about teachersand the impacts that they've
made.
I also want to hear fromstudents.
I want to hear from studentsabout how a teacher positively
impacted them.
I actually have a story thatthey've made.
I also want to hear fromstudents.
I wanna hear from studentsabout how a teacher positively
impacted them.
I actually have a story thatI'll share right now.
Oh, yes, this is a great one.
So probably about a month ago,my high school history teacher
(09:18):
tracked me down I hadn't talkedto him in 20 years tracked me
down and said I was cleaning outmy garage.
I found an old project of yoursDo you want the project back?
And he sent me a picture of itand it was.
The project was where Iinterviewed my mother and it had
a picture of me and my motheron the cover of it.
My mom passed away two yearsago and so this is something
(09:41):
that I would have never seen,never had.
So amazing.
And I'm just sitting here goingGod, this guy, what a great,
freaking teacher he was and I'mlike what other students did he
reach out to and just kind ofbrought this little gem you know
back, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
And so like that.
Thank you for sharing that.
Yeah, and now that picture's onyour Mr Bond, by the way.
Mr Bond, yeah, shout out to MrBond, thank you, and that
picture's on your desk.
Now it is on my desk.
Yeah, it's so great.
And I completely agree thosestories and those pieces of it.
The other thing that I wouldlike, when I think about what I
would do and think about someparallels, potentially for like
other hiring managers or TAleaders, is yes, you want to
(10:21):
tell the impact stories.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Yes, Impact stories.
There we go.
Marketing term that's mymarketing term.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
I guess I like it Today.
I think most people who areteachers know that because there
is that passion that's going in.
I would also then say, okay, ifthey know, if they're sold on
the story, but where do theyhave the biggest roadblocks to
being able to focus on that intheir day-to-day?
(10:48):
How do you help them recognizethe investments that you are
making to support them?
So how do you, through yournetworks, through your
interviewing, through yourpipelining, to like on education
, like systems a lot of statesare actually starting to create
their own talent by having morelike apprenticeship pipelines
and things like that.
(11:09):
So, if you help them understandnot just this is a path for you
, but here's how we're going toenable you with debt relief,
with making sure you have theright ratios to students, how do
you help craft the insight ofwe hear you, we see you, we know
what you care about, we knowthe burdens that you're going to
have to carry.
Here's what we're doing tosupport you through that.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
So I love that you said this.
So this reminds me of I don'tknow a couple of podcasts ago,
where we were talking aboutemployers putting their best
foot forward and a realistic jobpreview.
So to me, this is a reallygreat opportunity for public
schools to say, hey, listen,here are some of the challenges
that we've heard, and justaddress it head on.
(11:52):
Let me tell you what we'redoing.
So when you become a publicschool teacher with us, we're
going to help you in this way,this way, this way.
So I love it, you know, I meanhit it on the head.
Here's what we're doing tosupport you.
Here's what it looks like.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
I also think you're never going to be able to change
that perspective of like,working for the government
Because, again, like, if youthink back to when you talk
about what is a talent, identity, it's every single interaction
that you have, for positive ornegative, and we interact with
the government in every like.
All of these different ways totry and change that identity is
(12:25):
something that I think would bea lesson in futility, is
something that I think would bea lesson in futility.
But so I'm going to challengethat, in that I can easily
separate education andgovernment and that's where I
was going with it saying how doyou then create that identity at
the district level?
There we go, so I kind of thinkabout this like, if you it's
like oh, you know you talk aboutlike corporate.
(12:45):
Yeah, it's like, oh yeah,corporate's like that.
Yeah, but like here's what ouroffice is like you know big
organizations.
I think it's that kind ofperspective of saying there are
always going to be thisconnotation here, but the
reality is that you deal withthis superintendent, this is the
PTA, and here is how thecommunity kind of plays into
this larger thing.
So it's like reframing theactual experience, because I
(13:08):
completely yeah, we're sayingthe same thing.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Interesting?
Yes, we are.
It's because we're both likesuper smart.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
It's like one brain Mensa.
There we go.
Okay, we really struggled to becreative on how smart we are.
We're like, yes, brains, smartMensa.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
So here's what I would like to say.
So I think we've talked aboutthere is kind of the whole
advertising play, impactbranding, impact stories, as
Hillary said.
There is the interview andrecruitment process.
Let's do a realistic jobpreview, let's talk about what
the known or the perceivedchallenges are and let's address
(13:49):
them head on with our solutions.
So those are tips that reallyany organization can apply when
they have let's call itknowingly difficult positions to
recruit for.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Also, can I make a plug?
Yeah, please fund your schools.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Oh yeah, and keep your local schools too.
They're trying to shut down alittle local school in my
community.
Oh no, yeah, it breaks my heart.
Not enough kids, that's whatthey say.
And yet, ironically, last timeyou told us about the flyer.
Yeah well, that's because I'mgetting advertisements.
You're right for privateschools, I might be part of your
problem.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Know your community, know your target audience.
There we go, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
AB Elementary.
I'm with you, aw, just want tosay that.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Schools are great, yeah, yeah, schools are great,
yeah, any other?
Speaker 2 (14:33):
thoughts on that?
No, I just think that they'rehere.
Any other thoughts?
No, but yes, let me continue.
So time is all back into talent.
It is really important thatpeople understand if a position
is challenging, be upfront aboutit, but also talk about what
your plans are to make it better.
And I think that's kind of themajor lesson from the teacher
(14:54):
shortage discussion today.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Thank you, it's been a minute since we've had that.
(15:56):
Oh, it gave me joy.
So last time we were talkingabout data and you asked when
does data go bad?
And it reminded me of a studythat I read from HubSpot and I
threw out a number that I wasn'ttoo far off, but we wanted to
give the exact number.
But it said in a 12 monthperiod of time, your data will
(16:18):
deplete or depreciate by about25%.
So every 12 months, about aquarter of your data is bad.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Hey, fyi, open to best practices on staying on top
of data, like keeping it cleanand up to date and all of that.
You want them now?
No, okay, just FYI.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
I think well and I do want to make a side note that
the fact that you are payingattention to it is half the
battle.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
There we go.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
There we go.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Yeah, alright, okay Cool.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Are we hot taking?
Hot hot takes for hot topics,not hot my favorite.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
Oh, this is actually a hot take from a teacher, so I
just I'm going to read what shesays and I would love to hear
your thoughts on it.
So her hot take is the cause ofthe teacher shortage is
teachers leaving, primarilywithin their three to first
three to five years, not a lackof new people entering the
(17:21):
profession.
For example, my former, formerdistrict just raised the new
teacher salary to sixty thousanddollars.
District just raised the newteacher salary to $60,000.
But a teacher entering thedistrict with 25 years of
experience would make roughly$75,000.
Make it make sense.
On a related note, teacherturnover should be a major
factor in school evaluations bythe states or districts.
(17:43):
If a third of your staff quitsevery year, that's a glaring red
flag that someone needs to stepin and make meaningful change.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Yeah, I don't know if I agree with that.
Go ahead.
Well, so is it to clarify whenthey say turnover, are they
leaving the industry or are theyjust leaving that particular
school?
Did they clarify?
I'm gonna assume that they justleft that particular school.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
I mean 35% turnover if a third's leaving, it's
probably not that bad third,within the first three years.
So I think there's a couple ofthings here.
So first they talked aboutpeople are leaving the
profession within the firstthree to five years.
Is that what we heard?
Yeah, which is different.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Which is different.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
I know, I want to talk about that.
Not surprised by that, though?
I think a lot of people.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
I don't think that people have professions now the
way they did historically, sothat's company longevity I don't
think those are things that areas, and that's where, and
that's where I was going for itis saying that, um, we have
younger generations.
The people who are joining nowtend to be in the younger
generation.
They might be a second careertype of thing, but still they're
(18:54):
going to be younger.
The expectation on longevity isvery different and, granted, I
think school dynamics aredifferent than like business or
corporation dynamics, but to me,I think it's unfair to hold a
school If you use turnovermetrics within the first, let's
say, three years, let's say thatthree-year mark, I don't know
if it's fair to then hold theschools accountable to that,
(19:16):
because that might also just bea change in expectation.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Yeah you know, here we go.
This harkens back to our lastpodcast, using data without
context.
So I think that, yes, you canhold schools accountable to
turnover, but you have tounderstand what type of turnover
you're looking for.
You have to understand what thebaseline is, but you have to
understand what type of turnoveryou're looking for.
You have to understand what thebaseline is and you have to
understand historicals Correct.
And then you need to look atindustry benchmarking.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Great, great point.
But to just slap a label oflike turnover is bad.
I mean, here's the other thing,and I've actually seen this.
I'm not trying to throw anyoneunder the bus.
They'll never see this, I'msure.
But I have a couple cousinswho've recently.
By the way, I have 40 firstcousins, so I have many cousins.
I have a couple who-.
(20:02):
That's a lot, that's a lot ofcousins and I have a couple who
started into careers with veryspecific career paths, education
requirements, et cetera.
And then they've gotten intothe career and they're like, oh
yeah, like this isn't reallywhat I thought it was going to
be.
And now there's this moment oflike well, I've jumped into this
(20:26):
.
Now what?
I think we need to be better atsetting expectations of what
careers are Like.
Not just a realistic jobpreview of like what is this job
going to look like?
But think about the educationsystem.
What does a teaching careerlook like?
What is it like?
How often are you actually infront of kids and how often are
(20:46):
you doing planning schedules andhow much do you have to deal
with the principal of yourschool?
What does that look like?
Where is the expectation forthe PTA plays in and how are you
going to have to deal with theprincipal of your school?
What does that look like?
Where is the expectation forthe PTA plays in and how are you
going to have to work with them?
Because those are all verydifferent expectations and
dynamics that if you thought youwere just going to be able to
spend all day growing youngminds, you may hate all those
(21:07):
other things Interesting.
So the fix may not be entirelyon the school district.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
That will, and I think we're going to see that
across a lot of different typesof careers.
You know, I think it's going tobe the same thing.
It's this evolution, you know,I I mean how many kids go to
school, go to college and studysome degree and then never work
in that degree?
A lot of them.
You don't know as much planningand as much information as we
(21:36):
want to give somebody.
Oftentimes you can't make adecision until you've actually
experienced it yourself.
So you know, there is theexperiential part of all this.
Experiential.
There we go, dang it Close.
I left out a syllable, right.
Okay, I need a cup of coffee, Imean listen, you know, We'll
(21:57):
get you one but not before wefinish this podcast.
That's it.
Coffee break.
That's a wrap I need my coffee.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Nope, that's yeah I agree and I think this is the
other thing?
Going back to saying thegovernment has a lot of these
like structures and and, becauseyou can't run a government of
our size without very specificstructures and rules.
But are there certain tippingpoints of saying, okay, this is
no longer working?
Now what?
(22:21):
I will say one thing.
So one of my aunts she wentback for a second career to get
her teaching degree afterworking in the corporate world
and she worked at a school.
I thought this was interestingand I thought about this in the
context of turnover.
In three years, her school wasset up where she was assigned a
(22:43):
class in first grade and thenwas with them first, second,
third, fourth, fifth, sixth,until they went.
They moved on, and so you endup creating these really close
relationships with these kidsand so they would do these
cycles.
Yeah, I don't know what thetheory was behind that.
(23:04):
I don't know.
I mean, it's obviously not themost common thing.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
But that might be one of those ways to think, being
creative within the framework oflimitations you may have.
Speaker 2 (23:14):
Yeah, no, I like that .
Is that I get what you'resaying?
Speaker 1 (23:16):
No, yeah, I'm not advocating for that, I'm just
saying it's one of those thingsI think about.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
No, that is, it's interesting.
Yeah, got to work with what youhave.
Thanks for being here, dina.
Thank you, hilary.
Okay, bye.
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