April 17, 2025 • 28 mins
Return to office policies have become one of the most divisive workplace topics of the post-pandemic era. Dina and Hilary tackle this controversial subject by examining how companies are making drastically different choices – from Spotify's bold "our employees are not children" remote-first stance to organizations mandating full five-day office attendance.
Have you experienced a return-to-office mandate? Share your thoughts on whether companies are effectively communicating the "why" behind their policies and what's working (or not) in your workplace!
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Links & Mentions:
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➡︎ Spotify says employees "aren't children"
➡︎ How Employees Are Coffee Badging To Avoid Full Days At The Office
➡︎ Return-to-Office Mandates: The Talent Exodus CEOs Didn’t See Coming
➡︎ Forget the company car. Top earners want remote work.
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Connect with our Team of Huemans:
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➡︎ Website: https://www.hueman.com/
➡︎ Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/@huemanps/podcasts
➡︎ LI: https://www.linkedin.com/company/hueman-people-solutions
Don't forget to subscribe to the Hueman Resources Podcast Channel for more valuable insights on talent acquisition, recruiting, and workforce planning and management.
Visit Hueman.com to learn more about our recruiting services.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to Real Talk on Talent, a human resources
podcast where we talk abouttalent acquisition, recruiting
and all things hiring.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Hi Hilary, hi Dina, how are you?
I'm good, good.
Are you excited to be backtoday?
Speaker 1 (00:25):
I am.
I'm having a hard time, though,keeping a straight face and
actually thinking about whatwe're going to talk about.
Okay, because you're hilarious.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Why, thank you.
Yeah, that's it Full stop.
I would say I try, but it comesnaturally to me Ba-dum-.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
I think what I love about you is it's so unexpected
and yet so on brand, you know ILike the way that you mash up
sayings and it's correct in theDina way I got to tell you
something Idioms is that whatthey're called?
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Yes, yeah, I just I can't get them right.
I personally, you can't evenremember what they're called.
Well, there we go.
I think you're really funny,hilary.
Thank you, I think you're apretty funny person.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Honestly, though, this is why we are sitting here
today is because, unfortunately,we People think we're funny and
, to be clear, we don't know ifit's good or bad, I don't know
if it's correct or not, butanyway, I just feel like, or
maybe entertaining is probablylike maybe funny is here, but
(01:24):
entertaining Maybe it's becauseour shame levels are a little
bit lower than everybody else itcould be.
It could be, yeah, and it'slike hey, go dance in front of a
camera.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
We're like sure, why not?
When you've got moves likethese, you shouldn't hide them.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
I want to say, actually this is going to sound
like a weird pivot, but I'mgoing to bring us to our point.
Okay, let's hear it.
Good, we would not have thisinteraction if we were not
sitting in the office today.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Oh, hillary, you like that Dang, I'm not wrong.
No, you are not wrong.
I mean flawless transition.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
I wouldn't say flawless, but thank you.
I mean, I thought it was prettygood.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
It was pretty good.
Are we talking about we'retalking about return to office.
Return to office, boom, boom,boom.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
This is a very controversial, yet brave topic
for us it is, it is.
Yeah, yeah, let's set the stage.
Dina, will you set the stagefor us Return to office in the
world, return to office in theworld, whatever that means to
you set us up the world.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Okay, so we all know COVID happened.
Covid changed everything.
Everybody went work from home.
Slowly there were people comingback in the office.
What we're finding right now isa lot of organizations are
hybrid, hybrid, not hybrid.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
But what we're also finding Coming into the office
would be a lot more fun if therewas fresh bread every day.
Totally concur, but continue.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
What we're finding most recently is a lot of
organizations are mandating areturn to office, and especially
like a full five-day week.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Full five-day week yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
And then now there are other organizations pushing
back against that, like Spotify,saying huh, we don't.
No, we trust you guys, we'refully remote.
Oh listen, I think remote firstis their problem.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Spotify didn't just say we're fine being remote,
like they came out swinging.
I mean I thought it was greatthey had like the largest
billboard ever.
Is that what I say?
Our employees are not children.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like well, that's one way tothere we go.
I want to say make a plug foremployer branding on that.
That was a very specific choice.
Yes, because, honestly, spotifywasn't doing that to talk to
(03:21):
their employees.
Yeah, but they were doing that,so they were known as, like
that kind of a company.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Yeah, yeah, good call .
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Good call.
Return to office is aninteresting one.
It is.
How do you want to approachthis Pros and cons of in office
remote.
Coming back, in.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
You know what I would love to hear?
Yeah, I would love to hearabout your experiences working
in the office, working remotelyyes, and then kind of tell us
that, because what I want tohear about is how that impacted
your career journey.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Oh, that's good.
Okay, I'm going to make thisreally quick, okay.
So my very first job out ofcollege was a startup and in
office, you know, totallystandard, I am a pre COVID
employee, meaning like my firstjob was pre COVID.
Cause there is now thisinteresting cultural distinction
of like if you have, if you gotyour first professional job
(04:18):
after COVID completely different.
So, anyway, so I was in theoffice and then this was back
west and then my husband gotinto school here in Florida and,
long story short, I was allowedto work remotely.
I was the only remote employee.
They put me on contractor statusand I did that for a year and
(04:39):
hated it.
I didn't know anyone in Florida.
I was working at home and theydidn't know how to use me
because I was not.
It was like I was it wasn't acommon thing, yeah, and it was
like and I also realized Ididn't set myself up correctly
what I should have done isleaned in and gotten a bunch of
projects to work on for people,but instead I just kind of was
(05:00):
like all right, what am I doingfor you guys?
So just that's.
One takeaway that I had is Ishould have leaned in more to
say give me work that I can do,yeah, as opposed to just waiting
for work to come my way, yeah,anyway.
So it wasn't necessarily badfor my career, but it didn't do
anything good for me, okay.
And then, when the companystarted to struggle, my role was
(05:20):
the first to be eliminated.
Yeah, yeah, you know my role wasthe first to be eliminated, so
it was a lot more at risk Thenfound a local job, went back
into the office full time, didthat and then my job after that
I was there for about five orsix years was fully remote, and
this was before COVID.
So this would have been, Ithink, 2017, 2018.
(05:42):
And the company was primarilyremote just to begin with.
They were a global company,really leaned into it, and so
they had a really good structurefor building a remote culture.
And I really struggled.
I loved the people I worked with, I liked the work, but it was
(06:03):
really hard for me to feel likeI was building relationships
despite the fact that I did.
I didn't love it and did it fora year.
And then that's when I came tohuman, because I was excited
about being back in the officeand seeing people again.
And then, a year later or sixmonths after I started, human
COVID hit Okay.
And then a year later or sixmonths after I started, human
(06:23):
COVID hit Okay, and then we didCOVID and then I was remote.
So I give that backgroundbecause I think that for me,
when I look at my career, I'velearned a lot from the remote
experience about how to engageteams about how to position
myself, about how I work, abouthow I need my space, position
(06:47):
myself about how I work, abouthow I need my space.
But I also know that there arethings I would not be in the
position that I am today if Ididn't have the in-office
experience.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Yeah, I think you said a couple of really
important other things.
So I think one of the biggestquestions is are you set up for
success in a remote role and isyour organization built for
remote?
Speaker 1 (07:08):
work?
That, I think, is a reallygreat question.
No-transcript.
I don't think anyone reallyknows the answer to that.
Yeah, and I think it also isreally contingent on what kind
of work you're doing.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
So completely agree, Completely agree.
So I think that some companiesare more akin to working
remotely, Such as Such as ohgosh technical companies, you
know where maybe.
Perhaps you have a lot ofindividual contributors who are
kind of working on siloedprojects, things like that.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Or the projects are like okay, we collaborate on
what needs to get done.
Now people go do your part andwe'll come back together.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Yeah, I do think that if you are a person younger in
your career or new to aparticular career, I struggle to
figure out how you can developin that particular career if
you're not in person withsomebody.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Yeah, and that's what I think is part of what's
making return to office socontroversial right now is
because, is that the case?
Are younger people strugglingto get the mentorship and the
growth and the exposure becauseof a remote workforce, just
(08:30):
inherent structure?
Or because the people withexperience in leadership who
would provide that mentorshipdon't know how to open up, don't
know how to mentor remotelyopen up, don't know how to
mentor remotely, or the companyhasn't figured out the right way
to create those organicintersections, or inorganic,
like we're going to activelycreate these intersections, yeah
(08:52):
.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Yeah, so that's, I may be jumping the gun here.
So, you know, I think, that ifyou are a company like Spotify
that says we are remote first,you need to make sure you have
all of that stuff figured out.
You need to make sure that Doyou, though, I mean I think Walk
me through this, because I'mnot disagreeing.
I'm just curious about I mean, Ifeel like you are shortcutting
(09:14):
your employees If you don't haveways, a proven way for them to
grow and develop in a remotesetting, if you don't have
proven ways for people tocollaborate, share best
practices, mentor in a remotesetting.
So that's why, to me, likehybrid is kind of just the
default best model.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Yeah, but then what's interesting too is if you think
about hybrid.
I think hybrid can have twodefinitions, you're right.
So you have hybrid in the senseof, like a human, we come into
the office a couple days.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
We're in the office three days.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
You're not in the office two days a week, and
that's for people who livewithin the radius of one of our
offices.
Yeah Right, but then we havehalf of our workforce is fully
remote.
So you have the two definitionsEither you are part-time in the
office or part of your workforceis in the office and part is
not right and I think thatsometimes the like oh, you can
(10:14):
work from home two days a week,but you're in the office three
days.
I sometimes feel like it's aconsolation prize.
Okay, like, oh, in order toretain employees, we have to let
them work from home.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Okay, yeah, yeah, I get where you're going with that
which there's nothing wrongwith that, but I think that it's
.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
I think it misses the opportunity to see the value of
the remote experience.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Okay, well, and you know you're 100% correct,
because one thing here at Humanthat we always struggle with is
making sure that our remoteemployees are truly engaged and
that they are getting all of thesame opportunities that our
internal or in-office employeesare having, and that goes back
to my and vice versa, and viceversa.
Yeah, yeah.
(10:56):
So how do you make sure that,regardless of if you are remote
in person, whatever it is, thatopportunities are available
consistently, regardless of ifyou are remote in person,
whatever it is, thatopportunities are available
consistently, regardless oflocation?
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Yeah, and my opinion on that is that we talk a lot
about culture and likeculture-based hiring and
defining your culture and thebehaviors that go into your core
values, whatever that may bebut also defining how does that
translate across different worklocations.
So what is the expectation fora remote employee?
(11:27):
What is the expectation for anin-office employee?
What are the pros and cons,what are the benefits and
trade-offs and, as a company,can you be confident with that?
So, for example, if you compareSpotify to like Amazon, Yep, I
feel like if Amazon had beenbetter able to clarify their own
(11:51):
reasoning, you know they gavereasons for why they were
forcing people in, but the storythat comes out is like they're
just trying to like tightentheir workforce.
Yeah, yeah, or like themanagement is not willing to
learn how to engage remotely.
Yeah, you know, whereas if it'sa company you say, okay, do can
, can we provide the rightexperience remote, hybrid or in
(12:13):
person.
And if you can't, that's thequestion.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
To me that's the question.
Can we provide the right andthe right and consistent
experience as well?
Yeah, okay.
So if you were to start acompany Hillary's company I'm
going to be your first applicant.
What are you?
Speaker 1 (12:34):
mandating.
What is your work schedule looklike?
So for me, I really like whatwe have at Human, where we have
an office.
We all come in on the same daysso that we can have meetings in
person, we can engage with eachother, whatever, but those days
I work from home.
(12:56):
Those are my head down.
Get things done, bust it out.
There's less distraction for meand it's a lot more productive
in the individual like worksense and that helps keep my
work balanced in, like when do Iengage with people, when do I
have meetings and when do I havespace where I'm less likely to
have someone come knock on mydoor, and I love that.
I will say I think it's reallyimportant to make sure that that
(13:19):
hybrid approach gives anopportunity to include remote
people, because no city is goingto have the best talent for all
jobs in one place, and I thinkit's in Hillary Co that we've
now founded.
I have to have space for talentthat doesn't live within
driving distance.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
And what's your business again?
Will you remind me?
Speaker 1 (13:41):
I sell fancy things to fancy people.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Okay, I thought.
Just wanted to confirm.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
Yeah, it's very exclusive and very expensive.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Okay, yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
So thus, you are actually my number one customer,
so you can't be an employee.
This podcast has gotten viral.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Sorry, okay, what about you?
Speaker 1 (13:59):
So yeah, d and Co has just founded Dina and Co.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
How do you approach it Okay.
So first of all, werehabilitate wild animals.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Oh my gosh, that's what we do at Dina and Co See.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
this has been founded already, though.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Yeah, no, it has, it has Okay.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
No, so.
So I like the hybrid schedule.
So like, like the in office forclarification yeah, in office
and then home a couple of days,um, I do think, just from a
mental health perspective, goingto the office is good, I think,
for me personally.
I like having to get dressed up, I like having to put my best
(14:33):
foot forward, I like seeingpeople in person.
Um, you know, when we were homefrom COVID, like, yeah, it was
great wearing sweatsuits for thefirst six months, but let me
tell you something, after awhile I'm like I need to get up
and get dressed and go and seepeople.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
I really thrived living in my little cave.
I thrived.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
So no, I'm a big fan of kind of you know, same reason
you are.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
How would you do?
Like the non-local piece?
So I Would you hire people whodon't live close enough to the
office to come in.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
I mean I struggle with that.
If I had yes, because I dobelieve, like I mean, half of my
I was going to say most of yourteam is.
Most of my team is truly remote, but I guess it depends on what
it is that we're doing.
Because I do think that forpeople who are more junior in
their career, I really want themmore hands-on, more working
(15:25):
closely in person type space.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Yes, and you know what it just.
It inspired the thought andmaybe this is part of the pain
of why return to office is aneasy answer because I completely
agree with you and I bringpeople in to the office as often
as I can, like my, my true, ourtrue remotes it's what we call
(15:50):
people who don't live within theproximity of an office.
It requires the business toinvest in like.
If that person-to-personexperience is that valuable,
then I have to invest in makingthat happen and that is a huge
financial change, because if onyour budget, you're just used to
(16:11):
people driving themselves intothe office, then there's that
mental shift of like okay, nowwe invest in bringing people in.
And so I think I don't thinkit's wrong either way, like it's
not wrong to say I want peoplelocal so they can come into the
office, and it's not wrong tosay like I don't know if I want
to invest in them coming in, butI think that's an interesting
(16:31):
potential change if it's thatvaluable.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
And here's the thing.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
Like it forces a different conversation of like
value versus output.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
You know yeah yeah, and I'm looking at this, that
thought is very specific tohuman and knowing that
oftentimes we're employingpeople who are recruiters for
the first time and so you knowfrom that context, I'm like gosh
, be in office, be around otherindividuals, hear other
recruiters on the phone, etcetera.
But if I look at my team,people who have been recruiting
(17:01):
for 15, 20 years, work whereveryou're comfortable working at,
work, whatever's available toyou.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
So I also think there is, you know you know, I do
know, and I think it'sinteresting because that also
moves us into, like, the futureof work Uh-huh, and that
mentality of if you are new inthis, you really should be hip
(17:29):
to hip with someone who canwatch you share with you.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
I feel like that's such an old school mentality it
is.
I just don't know how to getpast it.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
No, but that's and I guess that's the challenge is
saying it is an old schoolmentality.
Yeah, doesn't mean it's wrong,yeah, but it'll be interesting
to see as work changes.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
I mean, oh my gosh, are we going to have to do like
virtual reality?
Maybe that's how this happenedLike hi, you're a new employee,
you want to be a recruiter,you're just going to VR with me
all day.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
I will tell you that I did a virtual conference where
, like it was, it was a LinkedInconference, yeah, and it was
for leaders in the staffingindustry.
So they they sent, like theOculus headset, yeah, and.
And we actually did a virtual,like in person, but remote
(18:16):
conference.
And there is something to besaid about that.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Yeah, okay, we're onto something.
I think that we should get oneof those companies to let us
demo.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Okay, but I got to say I'm jumping the gun here.
I'm ready to have fun at thispoint.
So, but what about Spot thevirtual office?
No, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Because to me I didn't like that.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
I loved that.
I didn't like it.
I loved that Because, to me, itcaptured so many of the
elements of an in-personexperience.
In a way, it was digital buteveryone was on a level playing
field, and I think that is whenwe think about that.
(18:55):
To me bridges some of thoseconcerns yeah, you know what,
adoption and like so yeah, sothat is yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
So I think when I say I don't like spot, when I would
get in there it'd be, you know,I'd go and just walk right up
to remote people it.
It could be because I'm moretenured in my career.
Thank you, you are well, arewell-aged, I am well-aged, I'm
like a fine one.
Yes, you are.
No, I always like to look atthe camera.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Watch me be funny, continue.
You're engaging remoteemployees.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
But I think this goes back to does your company have
the infrastructure appropriatelyGranted?
We were piloting that system.
Change management, changemanagement.
There we go.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Yeah, yeah, okay.
Let me ask you this Okay, ifyou had a workforce that was
entirely remote and you weregiven the directive, dina, your
chief operating officer, oh Godbless.
Okay, dina, your chiefoperating officer, oh God bless.
The chief executive officer hastold you, okay, that in three
months, no more work from home.
(20:04):
How would you do it?
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Yeah, so I, you can't say quit Peace.
Well, obviously I'd want tounderstand why.
Yep, what is your thought?
What is the business reason?
For this just because you wanteverybody here.
Please give me some type ofbusiness reason for it um.
And then I mean I would.
It's a good thing we're arecruitment company, because I
(20:29):
would anticipate a lot ofturnover.
Yes, yes, you know.
I mean gosh, I don't know.
I don't know how you do that, Idon't know.
Yeah, I don't know.
I mean just when we came backto the office three days a week,
it was really hard for a lot ofpeople.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
It was really hard Change is really hard.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Change is very hard.
So I mean gosh, hillary, Idon't know what would you do.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
But then also think through what are the personal
cases?
So because if you tell like anindividual contributor that the
business case is, or like you'regoing to have natural
(21:07):
intersections with leaders,First of all, like their job is
to not care about the overallbusiness case.
Their job is to care about theirjob.
And if they're not someone whocares about growing their career
, they're like this is my job, Ishow up, I do it and then I go
home.
Then they're not going to careabout mentorship opportunities,
right?
Or they may not understand,like, if you don't have exposure
(21:31):
to what that means, there's novalue in that for you.
So what I would try, what Iwould do, is I would map out
okay, this is the business case,so that you're always grounded
in, like this is ultimately abusiness decision and we know
what that is.
But then how do you find the?
What are the stories for eachof your key audiences?
(21:54):
And it has to be genuine.
It may not be a great story,yeah.
It may not be a story you like,but this is the lie, or it may
not be a story they like, theylike and that's in which case
it's like understood that thisis how we run as a business now
and like we want you to be apart of it.
But like this is how it is, andthis is why we think it's going
to be good for you and howwe're going to support you in
that effort.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
I know and then you call Dean and I get recruiting
support.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Yes, we're available 866-517.
Sorry, just spitting out myphone number in case anybody
needed recruiting support.
Love it yeah, tough yeah.
That's not a conversation Iwould want to have, but yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
This is fun.
This was good yeah yeah um.
Are we returning?
To the office no, we are in theoffice.
What?
Speaker 2 (22:41):
um.
Are we returning to hot takesfor hot topics?
Speaker 3 (22:43):
yes, hot takes well, the hot take is how a lot of
employees have been respondingto returning to the office,
which brings me to a fun newbuzz term called coffee badging,
in which people will clock infor the first half of the day,
then during their lunch orcoffee break they will badge out
(23:04):
and go home, so they'refulfilling halfway those
mandates.
Is that a okay way to respondor is this just a sign of how
companies did not really workpeople in to the mandates
effectively?
Speaker 2 (23:24):
So here's Dina grounds for termination.
I'm sorry if I tell you thatyour job is in the office five
days a week.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Did you define eight hours a day?
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Well, so to be clear, I'm going to assume I did.
I'm going to assume I did.
I'm going to assume that allthat has been made clear.
So anybody who is gaming asystem that's just not right,
Just don't do that.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
So here's my thought on it.
I've got two thoughts on this.
Whoa, are you doing it as aleader?
That's none of your business.
That's my point.
It is, and again, like if youare an executive Pop, just
called the kettle black.
Well, no and I want to be clearon this If you are an individual
(24:12):
contributor, an entry-levelindividual contributor, it is
expected that you do your jobfrom 8.30 to 5.30, with an hour
lunch, right?
Sure, yeah.
If you're an executive, when'sthe last time that you worked
eight hours in a day, five daysa week, and that's it?
Yeah, exactly Because theexpectation of your job is
different.
Yes, in my personal opinion, ifyou are expected to be more
(24:33):
available because you have adifferent type of job, then
there's some flexibility thatcomes in, if you know you're
going to have to take a latecall you're going to leave the
office early because you'regoing to work late, right and
again.
That's just kind of, in myopinion, by definition of that.
But I think that the balance isif you have a team that
(24:55):
constantly sees the people incharge coming and going as they
please.
They don't understand that it'sbecause they spent all weekend
on calls and working right.
Yeah, and so I think it's abalance of saying do I think?
I think if you're doing it tobe deceitful?
Speaker 2 (25:17):
That's mine.
Yes, yeah, if you're doing itto be deceitful non-starter,
yeah, I don't think I would eversay to somebody your job is
eight to five, you need to behere eight to five.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
I mean, I don't care what hours you do your job in as
long as you get it done, see,but the problem is, if you have
like recruiters, our recruiters,the expectation of their job is
they're available to the clientduring business hours yeah yeah
I think we've talked about thisbefore like marketers are very
different very different.
Get it done, you get it done Ithink for me, you need to be
(25:48):
clear on what is the expectationfor being in the office yeah
and what is your flexibility forwhen things are out of the
ordinary.
Yeah, you know.
Yeah, you got a doctor'sappointment.
You come into the office forthe first half of the day, go to
the doctor's appointment.
Is it okay to go home?
Yeah, is it expected that youcome back to the office?
You're expected.
(26:10):
You see what I'm saying, yeahyeah yeah, and I feel like
coffee badging is where peopleare thumbing their noses at the
letter of the law, whereas, like, how do companies help people
understand the spirit of the law?
There we go.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Well said, you're very on point right now.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
I don't know.
If I'm right, I might get somepeople who are like annoyed.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Yeah, well, that's okay.
That's okay.
Yeah, I mean, I would say Ithink you summed it up really
well.
I mean, to me, if you're doingit to be deceitful, non-starter,
that's always an issue, nomatter what it is, no matter
what it is.
And that's to me, that's theline.
That being said, I believe thatwe should be flexible as needed
.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
I do.
But also I'll also say this theone problem I do have with the
concept of like showing up justto like buzz in and then
disappear is how much time didyou waste just showing up?
Well, also that.
But I think about the peoplelike me who are rule followers
and I'm going to be there LikeI'm going to be in the office,
(27:13):
and it is a less like if I'msitting in an office all by
myself because everybody elsehas coffee badged, but I'm there
because I'm trying to be a goodemployee and follow the rules.
You kind of screwed me over.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
Yeah, and the idea is they are meeting that baseline
of they are making an appearance, they are talking with their
colleagues and I think they gohome because they are not
getting a better explanation ofwhy the mandate exists.
They're not seeing that and, asa non-leader, I think that
(27:46):
would be beneficial.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
Yeah, I think, I think you hit a really good
point.
What?
Is the why and if you'reforcing people to come into an
office but not ensuring that theoffice experience provides
value.
Office, yes, thank you.
Then why are you forcing peoplein the office?
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're 100% correct.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Be clear on the value of the office.
Yeah, I like it here at Human.
It's to see us.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Available Mondays, wednesdays and Thursdays.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
Do you not know what days we're in the?
Speaker 2 (28:19):
office.
Ours vary.
I do travel a lot for work.
Bye.
Welcome to Real Talk on Talent, a human resources
podcast where we talk abouttalent acquisition, recruiting
and all things hiring.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Hi Hilary, hi Dina, how are you?
I'm good, good.
Are you excited to be backtoday?
Speaker 1 (00:25):
I am.
I'm having a hard time, though,keeping a straight face and
actually thinking about whatwe're going to talk about.
Okay, because you're hilarious.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
Why, thank you.
Yeah, that's it Full stop.
I would say I try, but it comesnaturally to me Ba-dum-.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
I think what I love about you is it's so unexpected
and yet so on brand, you know ILike the way that you mash up
sayings and it's correct in theDina way I got to tell you
something Idioms is that whatthey're called?
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Yes, yeah, I just I can't get them right.
I personally, you can't evenremember what they're called.
Well, there we go.
I think you're really funny,hilary.
Thank you, I think you're apretty funny person.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Honestly, though, this is why we are sitting here
today is because, unfortunately,we People think we're funny and
, to be clear, we don't know ifit's good or bad, I don't know
if it's correct or not, butanyway, I just feel like, or
maybe entertaining is probablylike maybe funny is here, but
(01:24):
entertaining Maybe it's becauseour shame levels are a little
bit lower than everybody else itcould be.
It could be, yeah, and it'slike hey, go dance in front of a
camera.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
We're like sure, why not?
When you've got moves likethese, you shouldn't hide them.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
I want to say, actually this is going to sound
like a weird pivot, but I'mgoing to bring us to our point.
Okay, let's hear it.
Good, we would not have thisinteraction if we were not
sitting in the office today.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Oh, hillary, you like that Dang, I'm not wrong.
No, you are not wrong.
I mean flawless transition.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
I wouldn't say flawless, but thank you.
I mean, I thought it was prettygood.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
It was pretty good.
Are we talking about we'retalking about return to office.
Return to office, boom, boom,boom.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
This is a very controversial, yet brave topic
for us it is, it is.
Yeah, yeah, let's set the stage.
Dina, will you set the stagefor us Return to office in the
world, return to office in theworld, whatever that means to
you set us up the world.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Okay, so we all know COVID happened.
Covid changed everything.
Everybody went work from home.
Slowly there were people comingback in the office.
What we're finding right now isa lot of organizations are
hybrid, hybrid, not hybrid.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
But what we're also finding Coming into the office
would be a lot more fun if therewas fresh bread every day.
Totally concur, but continue.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
What we're finding most recently is a lot of
organizations are mandating areturn to office, and especially
like a full five-day week.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Full five-day week yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
And then now there are other organizations pushing
back against that, like Spotify,saying huh, we don't.
No, we trust you guys, we'refully remote.
Oh listen, I think remote firstis their problem.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Spotify didn't just say we're fine being remote,
like they came out swinging.
I mean I thought it was greatthey had like the largest
billboard ever.
Is that what I say?
Our employees are not children.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like well, that's one way tothere we go.
I want to say make a plug foremployer branding on that.
That was a very specific choice.
Yes, because, honestly, spotifywasn't doing that to talk to
(03:21):
their employees.
Yeah, but they were doing that,so they were known as, like
that kind of a company.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Yeah, yeah, good call .
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Good call.
Return to office is aninteresting one.
It is.
How do you want to approachthis Pros and cons of in office
remote.
Coming back, in.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
You know what I would love to hear?
Yeah, I would love to hearabout your experiences working
in the office, working remotelyyes, and then kind of tell us
that, because what I want tohear about is how that impacted
your career journey.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Oh, that's good.
Okay, I'm going to make thisreally quick, okay.
So my very first job out ofcollege was a startup and in
office, you know, totallystandard, I am a pre COVID
employee, meaning like my firstjob was pre COVID.
Cause there is now thisinteresting cultural distinction
of like if you have, if you gotyour first professional job
(04:18):
after COVID completely different.
So, anyway, so I was in theoffice and then this was back
west and then my husband gotinto school here in Florida and,
long story short, I was allowedto work remotely.
I was the only remote employee.
They put me on contractor statusand I did that for a year and
(04:39):
hated it.
I didn't know anyone in Florida.
I was working at home and theydidn't know how to use me
because I was not.
It was like I was it wasn't acommon thing, yeah, and it was
like and I also realized Ididn't set myself up correctly
what I should have done isleaned in and gotten a bunch of
projects to work on for people,but instead I just kind of was
(05:00):
like all right, what am I doingfor you guys?
So just that's.
One takeaway that I had is Ishould have leaned in more to
say give me work that I can do,yeah, as opposed to just waiting
for work to come my way, yeah,anyway.
So it wasn't necessarily badfor my career, but it didn't do
anything good for me, okay.
And then, when the companystarted to struggle, my role was
(05:20):
the first to be eliminated.
Yeah, yeah, you know my role wasthe first to be eliminated, so
it was a lot more at risk Thenfound a local job, went back
into the office full time, didthat and then my job after that
I was there for about five orsix years was fully remote, and
this was before COVID.
So this would have been, Ithink, 2017, 2018.
(05:42):
And the company was primarilyremote just to begin with.
They were a global company,really leaned into it, and so
they had a really good structurefor building a remote culture.
And I really struggled.
I loved the people I worked with, I liked the work, but it was
(06:03):
really hard for me to feel likeI was building relationships
despite the fact that I did.
I didn't love it and did it fora year.
And then that's when I came tohuman, because I was excited
about being back in the officeand seeing people again.
And then, a year later or sixmonths after I started, human
COVID hit Okay.
And then a year later or sixmonths after I started, human
(06:23):
COVID hit Okay, and then we didCOVID and then I was remote.
So I give that backgroundbecause I think that for me,
when I look at my career, I'velearned a lot from the remote
experience about how to engageteams about how to position
myself, about how I work, abouthow I need my space, position
(06:47):
myself about how I work, abouthow I need my space.
But I also know that there arethings I would not be in the
position that I am today if Ididn't have the in-office
experience.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Yeah, I think you said a couple of really
important other things.
So I think one of the biggestquestions is are you set up for
success in a remote role and isyour organization built for
remote?
Speaker 1 (07:08):
work?
That, I think, is a reallygreat question.
No-transcript.
I don't think anyone reallyknows the answer to that.
Yeah, and I think it also isreally contingent on what kind
of work you're doing.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
So completely agree, Completely agree.
So I think that some companiesare more akin to working
remotely, Such as Such as ohgosh technical companies, you
know where maybe.
Perhaps you have a lot ofindividual contributors who are
kind of working on siloedprojects, things like that.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Or the projects are like okay, we collaborate on
what needs to get done.
Now people go do your part andwe'll come back together.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Yeah, I do think that if you are a person younger in
your career or new to aparticular career, I struggle to
figure out how you can developin that particular career if
you're not in person withsomebody.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Yeah, and that's what I think is part of what's
making return to office socontroversial right now is
because, is that the case?
Are younger people strugglingto get the mentorship and the
growth and the exposure becauseof a remote workforce, just
(08:30):
inherent structure?
Or because the people withexperience in leadership who
would provide that mentorshipdon't know how to open up, don't
know how to mentor remotelyopen up, don't know how to
mentor remotely, or the companyhasn't figured out the right way
to create those organicintersections, or inorganic,
like we're going to activelycreate these intersections, yeah
(08:52):
.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Yeah, so that's, I may be jumping the gun here.
So, you know, I think, that ifyou are a company like Spotify
that says we are remote first,you need to make sure you have
all of that stuff figured out.
You need to make sure that Doyou, though, I mean I think Walk
me through this, because I'mnot disagreeing.
I'm just curious about I mean, Ifeel like you are shortcutting
(09:14):
your employees If you don't haveways, a proven way for them to
grow and develop in a remotesetting, if you don't have
proven ways for people tocollaborate, share best
practices, mentor in a remotesetting.
So that's why, to me, likehybrid is kind of just the
default best model.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Yeah, but then what's interesting too is if you think
about hybrid.
I think hybrid can have twodefinitions, you're right.
So you have hybrid in the senseof, like a human, we come into
the office a couple days.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
We're in the office three days.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
You're not in the office two days a week, and
that's for people who livewithin the radius of one of our
offices.
Yeah Right, but then we havehalf of our workforce is fully
remote.
So you have the two definitionsEither you are part-time in the
office or part of your workforceis in the office and part is
not right and I think thatsometimes the like oh, you can
(10:14):
work from home two days a week,but you're in the office three
days.
I sometimes feel like it's aconsolation prize.
Okay, like, oh, in order toretain employees, we have to let
them work from home.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Okay, yeah, yeah, I get where you're going with that
which there's nothing wrongwith that, but I think that it's
.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
I think it misses the opportunity to see the value of
the remote experience.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Okay, well, and you know you're 100% correct,
because one thing here at Humanthat we always struggle with is
making sure that our remoteemployees are truly engaged and
that they are getting all of thesame opportunities that our
internal or in-office employeesare having, and that goes back
to my and vice versa, and viceversa.
Yeah, yeah.
(10:56):
So how do you make sure that,regardless of if you are remote
in person, whatever it is, thatopportunities are available
consistently, regardless of ifyou are remote in person,
whatever it is, thatopportunities are available
consistently, regardless oflocation?
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Yeah, and my opinion on that is that we talk a lot
about culture and likeculture-based hiring and
defining your culture and thebehaviors that go into your core
values, whatever that may bebut also defining how does that
translate across different worklocations.
So what is the expectation fora remote employee?
(11:27):
What is the expectation for anin-office employee?
What are the pros and cons,what are the benefits and
trade-offs and, as a company,can you be confident with that?
So, for example, if you compareSpotify to like Amazon, Yep, I
feel like if Amazon had beenbetter able to clarify their own
(11:51):
reasoning, you know they gavereasons for why they were
forcing people in, but the storythat comes out is like they're
just trying to like tightentheir workforce.
Yeah, yeah, or like themanagement is not willing to
learn how to engage remotely.
Yeah, you know, whereas if it'sa company you say, okay, do can
, can we provide the rightexperience remote, hybrid or in
(12:13):
person.
And if you can't, that's thequestion.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
To me that's the question.
Can we provide the right andthe right and consistent
experience as well?
Yeah, okay.
So if you were to start acompany Hillary's company I'm
going to be your first applicant.
What are you?
Speaker 1 (12:34):
mandating.
What is your work schedule looklike?
So for me, I really like whatwe have at Human, where we have
an office.
We all come in on the same daysso that we can have meetings in
person, we can engage with eachother, whatever, but those days
I work from home.
(12:56):
Those are my head down.
Get things done, bust it out.
There's less distraction for meand it's a lot more productive
in the individual like worksense and that helps keep my
work balanced in, like when do Iengage with people, when do I
have meetings and when do I havespace where I'm less likely to
have someone come knock on mydoor, and I love that.
I will say I think it's reallyimportant to make sure that that
(13:19):
hybrid approach gives anopportunity to include remote
people, because no city is goingto have the best talent for all
jobs in one place, and I thinkit's in Hillary Co that we've
now founded.
I have to have space for talentthat doesn't live within
driving distance.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
And what's your business again?
Will you remind me?
Speaker 1 (13:41):
I sell fancy things to fancy people.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
Okay, I thought.
Just wanted to confirm.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
Yeah, it's very exclusive and very expensive.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Okay, yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
So thus, you are actually my number one customer,
so you can't be an employee.
This podcast has gotten viral.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Sorry, okay, what about you?
Speaker 1 (13:59):
So yeah, d and Co has just founded Dina and Co.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
How do you approach it Okay.
So first of all, werehabilitate wild animals.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Oh my gosh, that's what we do at Dina and Co See.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
this has been founded already, though.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
Yeah, no, it has, it has Okay.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
No, so.
So I like the hybrid schedule.
So like, like the in office forclarification yeah, in office
and then home a couple of days,um, I do think, just from a
mental health perspective, goingto the office is good, I think,
for me personally.
I like having to get dressed up, I like having to put my best
(14:33):
foot forward, I like seeingpeople in person.
Um, you know, when we were homefrom COVID, like, yeah, it was
great wearing sweatsuits for thefirst six months, but let me
tell you something, after awhile I'm like I need to get up
and get dressed and go and seepeople.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
I really thrived living in my little cave.
I thrived.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
So no, I'm a big fan of kind of you know, same reason
you are.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
How would you do?
Like the non-local piece?
So I Would you hire people whodon't live close enough to the
office to come in.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
I mean I struggle with that.
If I had yes, because I dobelieve, like I mean, half of my
I was going to say most of yourteam is.
Most of my team is truly remote, but I guess it depends on what
it is that we're doing.
Because I do think that forpeople who are more junior in
their career, I really want themmore hands-on, more working
(15:25):
closely in person type space.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Yes, and you know what it just.
It inspired the thought andmaybe this is part of the pain
of why return to office is aneasy answer because I completely
agree with you and I bringpeople in to the office as often
as I can, like my, my true, ourtrue remotes it's what we call
(15:50):
people who don't live within theproximity of an office.
It requires the business toinvest in like.
If that person-to-personexperience is that valuable,
then I have to invest in makingthat happen and that is a huge
financial change, because if onyour budget, you're just used to
(16:11):
people driving themselves intothe office, then there's that
mental shift of like okay, nowwe invest in bringing people in.
And so I think I don't thinkit's wrong either way, like it's
not wrong to say I want peoplelocal so they can come into the
office, and it's not wrong tosay like I don't know if I want
to invest in them coming in, butI think that's an interesting
(16:31):
potential change if it's thatvaluable.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
And here's the thing.
Speaker 1 (16:37):
Like it forces a different conversation of like
value versus output.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
You know yeah yeah, and I'm looking at this, that
thought is very specific tohuman and knowing that
oftentimes we're employingpeople who are recruiters for
the first time and so you knowfrom that context, I'm like gosh
, be in office, be around otherindividuals, hear other
recruiters on the phone, etcetera.
But if I look at my team,people who have been recruiting
(17:01):
for 15, 20 years, work whereveryou're comfortable working at,
work, whatever's available toyou.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
So I also think there is, you know you know, I do
know, and I think it'sinteresting because that also
moves us into, like, the futureof work Uh-huh, and that
mentality of if you are new inthis, you really should be hip
(17:29):
to hip with someone who canwatch you share with you.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
I feel like that's such an old school mentality it
is.
I just don't know how to getpast it.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
No, but that's and I guess that's the challenge is
saying it is an old schoolmentality.
Yeah, doesn't mean it's wrong,yeah, but it'll be interesting
to see as work changes.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
I mean, oh my gosh, are we going to have to do like
virtual reality?
Maybe that's how this happenedLike hi, you're a new employee,
you want to be a recruiter,you're just going to VR with me
all day.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
I will tell you that I did a virtual conference where
, like it was, it was a LinkedInconference, yeah, and it was
for leaders in the staffingindustry.
So they they sent, like theOculus headset, yeah, and.
And we actually did a virtual,like in person, but remote
(18:16):
conference.
And there is something to besaid about that.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Yeah, okay, we're onto something.
I think that we should get oneof those companies to let us
demo.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Okay, but I got to say I'm jumping the gun here.
I'm ready to have fun at thispoint.
So, but what about Spot thevirtual office?
No, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Because to me I didn't like that.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
I loved that.
I didn't like it.
I loved that Because, to me, itcaptured so many of the
elements of an in-personexperience.
In a way, it was digital buteveryone was on a level playing
field, and I think that is whenwe think about that.
(18:55):
To me bridges some of thoseconcerns yeah, you know what,
adoption and like so yeah, sothat is yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
So I think when I say I don't like spot, when I would
get in there it'd be, you know,I'd go and just walk right up
to remote people it.
It could be because I'm moretenured in my career.
Thank you, you are well, arewell-aged, I am well-aged, I'm
like a fine one.
Yes, you are.
No, I always like to look atthe camera.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Watch me be funny, continue.
You're engaging remoteemployees.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
But I think this goes back to does your company have
the infrastructure appropriatelyGranted?
We were piloting that system.
Change management, changemanagement.
There we go.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Yeah, yeah, okay.
Let me ask you this Okay, ifyou had a workforce that was
entirely remote and you weregiven the directive, dina, your
chief operating officer, oh Godbless.
Okay, dina, your chiefoperating officer, oh God bless.
The chief executive officer hastold you, okay, that in three
months, no more work from home.
(20:04):
How would you do it?
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Yeah, so I, you can't say quit Peace.
Well, obviously I'd want tounderstand why.
Yep, what is your thought?
What is the business reason?
For this just because you wanteverybody here.
Please give me some type ofbusiness reason for it um.
And then I mean I would.
It's a good thing we're arecruitment company, because I
(20:29):
would anticipate a lot ofturnover.
Yes, yes, you know.
I mean gosh, I don't know.
I don't know how you do that, Idon't know.
Yeah, I don't know.
I mean just when we came backto the office three days a week,
it was really hard for a lot ofpeople.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
It was really hard Change is really hard.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Change is very hard.
So I mean gosh, hillary, Idon't know what would you do.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
But then also think through what are the personal
cases?
So because if you tell like anindividual contributor that the
business case is, or like you'regoing to have natural
(21:07):
intersections with leaders,First of all, like their job is
to not care about the overallbusiness case.
Their job is to care about theirjob.
And if they're not someone whocares about growing their career
, they're like this is my job, Ishow up, I do it and then I go
home.
Then they're not going to careabout mentorship opportunities,
right?
Or they may not understand,like, if you don't have exposure
(21:31):
to what that means, there's novalue in that for you.
So what I would try, what Iwould do, is I would map out
okay, this is the business case,so that you're always grounded
in, like this is ultimately abusiness decision and we know
what that is.
But then how do you find the?
What are the stories for eachof your key audiences?
(21:54):
And it has to be genuine.
It may not be a great story,yeah.
It may not be a story you like,but this is the lie, or it may
not be a story they like, theylike and that's in which case
it's like understood that thisis how we run as a business now
and like we want you to be apart of it.
But like this is how it is, andthis is why we think it's going
to be good for you and howwe're going to support you in
that effort.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
I know and then you call Dean and I get recruiting
support.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Yes, we're available 866-517.
Sorry, just spitting out myphone number in case anybody
needed recruiting support.
Love it yeah, tough yeah.
That's not a conversation Iwould want to have, but yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
This is fun.
This was good yeah yeah um.
Are we returning?
To the office no, we are in theoffice.
What?
Speaker 2 (22:41):
um.
Are we returning to hot takesfor hot topics?
Speaker 3 (22:43):
yes, hot takes well, the hot take is how a lot of
employees have been respondingto returning to the office,
which brings me to a fun newbuzz term called coffee badging,
in which people will clock infor the first half of the day,
then during their lunch orcoffee break they will badge out
(23:04):
and go home, so they'refulfilling halfway those
mandates.
Is that a okay way to respondor is this just a sign of how
companies did not really workpeople in to the mandates
effectively?
Speaker 2 (23:24):
So here's Dina grounds for termination.
I'm sorry if I tell you thatyour job is in the office five
days a week.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Did you define eight hours a day?
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Well, so to be clear, I'm going to assume I did.
I'm going to assume I did.
I'm going to assume that allthat has been made clear.
So anybody who is gaming asystem that's just not right,
Just don't do that.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
So here's my thought on it.
I've got two thoughts on this.
Whoa, are you doing it as aleader?
That's none of your business.
That's my point.
It is, and again, like if youare an executive Pop, just
called the kettle black.
Well, no and I want to be clearon this If you are an individual
(24:12):
contributor, an entry-levelindividual contributor, it is
expected that you do your jobfrom 8.30 to 5.30, with an hour
lunch, right?
Sure, yeah.
If you're an executive, when'sthe last time that you worked
eight hours in a day, five daysa week, and that's it?
Yeah, exactly Because theexpectation of your job is
different.
Yes, in my personal opinion, ifyou are expected to be more
(24:33):
available because you have adifferent type of job, then
there's some flexibility thatcomes in, if you know you're
going to have to take a latecall you're going to leave the
office early because you'regoing to work late, right and
again.
That's just kind of, in myopinion, by definition of that.
But I think that the balance isif you have a team that
(24:55):
constantly sees the people incharge coming and going as they
please.
They don't understand that it'sbecause they spent all weekend
on calls and working right.
Yeah, and so I think it's abalance of saying do I think?
I think if you're doing it tobe deceitful?
Speaker 2 (25:17):
That's mine.
Yes, yeah, if you're doing itto be deceitful non-starter,
yeah, I don't think I would eversay to somebody your job is
eight to five, you need to behere eight to five.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
I mean, I don't care what hours you do your job in as
long as you get it done, see,but the problem is, if you have
like recruiters, our recruiters,the expectation of their job is
they're available to the clientduring business hours yeah yeah
I think we've talked about thisbefore like marketers are very
different very different.
Get it done, you get it done Ithink for me, you need to be
(25:48):
clear on what is the expectationfor being in the office yeah
and what is your flexibility forwhen things are out of the
ordinary.
Yeah, you know.
Yeah, you got a doctor'sappointment.
You come into the office forthe first half of the day, go to
the doctor's appointment.
Is it okay to go home?
Yeah, is it expected that youcome back to the office?
You're expected.
(26:10):
You see what I'm saying, yeahyeah yeah, and I feel like
coffee badging is where peopleare thumbing their noses at the
letter of the law, whereas, like, how do companies help people
understand the spirit of the law?
There we go.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Well said, you're very on point right now.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
I don't know.
If I'm right, I might get somepeople who are like annoyed.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Yeah, well, that's okay.
That's okay.
Yeah, I mean, I would say Ithink you summed it up really
well.
I mean, to me, if you're doingit to be deceitful, non-starter,
that's always an issue, nomatter what it is, no matter
what it is.
And that's to me, that's theline.
That being said, I believe thatwe should be flexible as needed
.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
I do.
But also I'll also say this theone problem I do have with the
concept of like showing up justto like buzz in and then
disappear is how much time didyou waste just showing up?
Well, also that.
But I think about the peoplelike me who are rule followers
and I'm going to be there LikeI'm going to be in the office,
(27:13):
and it is a less like if I'msitting in an office all by
myself because everybody elsehas coffee badged, but I'm there
because I'm trying to be a goodemployee and follow the rules.
You kind of screwed me over.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
Yeah, and the idea is they are meeting that baseline
of they are making an appearance, they are talking with their
colleagues and I think they gohome because they are not
getting a better explanation ofwhy the mandate exists.
They're not seeing that and, asa non-leader, I think that
(27:46):
would be beneficial.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
Yeah, I think, I think you hit a really good
point.
What?
Is the why and if you'reforcing people to come into an
office but not ensuring that theoffice experience provides
value.
Office, yes, thank you.
Then why are you forcing peoplein the office?
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're 100% correct.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Be clear on the value of the office.
Yeah, I like it here at Human.
It's to see us.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Available Mondays, wednesdays and Thursdays.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
Do you not know what days we're in the?
Speaker 2 (28:19):
office.
Ours vary.
I do travel a lot for work.
Bye.
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