April 8, 2025 • 54 mins
Lindsay Ware takes us deep into the remarkable world of professional game recovery with tracking dogs, revealing the intricate relationship between hunter, handler, and canine that ensures ethical hunting outcomes. As one of Maine's busiest wildlife trackers, Lindsay shares why she chose wire-haired dachshunds over larger breeds for their maneuverability in thick terrain and impressive stamina during long tracking days.
The conversation dispels common misconceptions about how tracking dogs work. Far from simply following blood, these extraordinary animals use every available scent marker - interdigital gland secretions, body odor, breath traces, disturbed vegetation, and the distinctive smell of stressed animals. When blood trails fade or rain washes evidence away, these additional scent sources become crucial to successful recovery.
Lindsay provides fascinating insights into wounded animal behavior that few hunters ever witness. The sophisticated "J-hook" maneuver where animals circle back to observe their trail, strategic use of water crossings to slow pursuers, and the surprising terrain challenges animals will navigate despite injuries all demonstrate wildlife's remarkable adaptability. She partially debunks the "wounded animals always head to water" myth while explaining the specific circumstances when water entry actually occurs.
Perhaps most valuable are the practical tips for hunters facing the distressing situation of an uncertain hit. Lindsay explains why calling professional help early before contaminating the scene with multiple searchers dramatically increases recovery chances. Her stories of close calls with wounded moose highlight the dangers trackers sometimes face, while the emotional relief of successful recovery underscores why this work matters so deeply to the hunting community.
For anyone who values ethical hunting practices and wildlife conservation, this episode offers a rare glimpse into the specialized world of tracking that combines ancient canine instincts with modern training techniques to honor our responsibility to the animals we hunt.
Check us out on Facebook and instagram Hunts On Outfitting, and also our YouTube page Hunts On Outfitting Podcast. Tell your hunting buddies about the podcast if you like it, Thanks!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
this is hunts on outfitting podcast.
I'm your host and rookie guide,ken meyer.
I love everything hunting theoutdoors and all things
associated with it, fromstories-tos.
You'll find it here.
Welcome to the podcast.
Hey, thanks for tuning in.
(00:34):
This week we are talking aboutsomething very near and dear to
us hunters, and that's findingand recovering our game.
It's great if whatever youshoot drops dead in its tracks,
but what if it doesn't?
What if there isn't much bloodto follow and darkness is
approaching and then off in thedistance, you see some rain
clouds closing in?
Well, if you made a call to askilled animal recovery team,
like our guest today, lindsayWare, then you can be assured
(00:56):
you're in good hands.
This episode I really learned alot.
Lindsay does an excellent jobexplaining what her and her
canine team do and share somegreat stories.
In this episode we're going tobe talking about some
hard-working dogs that you cantrust will do their absolute
best to find your animal.
But we need to always make surewe are feeding our dogs the
(01:20):
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you where someone sells it nearyou.
(01:41):
Yeah, lindsay, I mean thanksfor taking my call and I'm
really excited to learn aboutwhat you do.
But first you know, how did you?
I mean, what was your start inthe outdoors?
Did you hunt before, or haveyou had time to hunt now that
you're into the big game,tracking, I mean?
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Yeah, so I'm one of those people that grew up with
it.
I grew up in a hunting familyand, very outdoorsy, I did hunt.
I used to hunt and you kind ofhit the nail on the head,
implying that it's possible Imight not hunt anymore because I
tracked so much, and that'stotally true.
So I found that my place inhunting is and my passion is
(02:23):
really working with the dogs andtracking, and while I'm still,
of course, a big part of thehunting community, I myself
that's not really where my placeis anymore and it's not where
my passion is anymore.
It's really about doing thetracking piece.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Yeah, I mean you get to.
I mean it must be great whenyou all these hunters that are,
you know they call you up.
They're probably so worried,sick to their stomach, like I
don't know if I hit it wellenough where it is.
And then just for you to bringthem that relief by finding
their game dogs and uh, yeah, Iused to sit up when I still
(03:06):
hunted.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
I used to sit up in my tree stand and get texts and
calls from people and think,like you know, I'm gonna go help
them, like I, I'm gonna climbdown.
I'd rather climb down from thetree stand and and help uh,
instead of stay up here and hunt.
So, um, yeah, it's a a big partof it is you.
You're working with someone whois in a very distressing
(03:27):
situation and you're doingeverything that you can to try
to help them and and to help thewildlife as well.
So it's, it's great.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Right, yeah.
So I mean, have you, did youhave working dogs before this?
Like, where, where did the dogs, the dogs come into all this?
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Blood tracking was actually my introduction to
working dogs.
That was actually where I gotstarted.
Now I do other things withworking dogs.
I grew up with hunting dogsjust in the family and things
like that.
I also was at about the sametime as I was getting into blood
tracking I was getting intoprofessionally doing pet dog
training and so it kind of allcame together for me around the
(04:14):
same time.
And then, because of my workwith blood tracking dogs, I
actually got further intoworking dogs in general and
realized because of bloodtracking that this is what I
wanted to do all the time.
I wanted to work with my dogs,not just in the fall, but always
.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely so.
How did you?
I've seen, you know, videos andpictures from all over North
America and beyond of differenttypes and breeds of dogs.
What breeds do you use and whydid you settle on them?
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Well, I started off with a Labrador and I'm
currently using wire-haireddachshunds, or teckles as we
call them, and a lot of mydecision around working with the
dachshunds has to do with myregion and the laws in my region
.
So in Maine we're an on-leashtracking state, so we have to
(05:14):
have our dogs.
I work on a 30-foot leash withmy dogs and it is really, you
know, it's probably very similarto terrain that you're used to.
It's super, super, super thickand there can be some rugged
terrain, especially when we'remoose and bear tracking and when
we have a very large dog justme personally, when I have that
(05:38):
large Labrador on a leash andhe's like pulling me basically
through this terrain, it can bea little difficult for me, and
so I just personally kind oflike the smaller size dogs and
so the dachshunds kind of bringthat aspect of it to it.
They can pull me over a lotless easily than the Labrador
(06:00):
could.
And I also worked my originalmentor in blood tracking.
She is from Germany and shekind of introduced me to these
little dogs, so she was aninspiration, for sure.
But I kind of fell in love withthem and they just suited me
really well.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Okay, yeah, that's neat.
Yeah, because the labs.
I was surprised.
I mean, they have one of thebest noses of most any dog, the
Beagle's ahead of them and stuff, but they are right up there,
even with Coonhounds, which Iwas surprised about.
But the dachshunds, I mean, howbig are they?
They're what?
Would it be?
8, 10 pounds?
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Well, so they're standard-sized dachshunds, so
they tend to be the Europeanstyle working line dachshunds
tend to be a little bit longerin the leg and a little bit more
athletically built than like ashow line dachshund that you'd
find like an AKC Americandachshund.
So they are built a bit moreand really surprisingly agile.
(07:02):
They're built more for kind ofbeing in the woods, Um, but we
also use standard sizedachshunds.
So I have I've actuallyhappened to have a standard male
who's very small, Um, buttypically the males of this
breed are going to be, uh, 22pounds and upwards, maybe even
(07:24):
as as big as, you know, hightwenties.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Okay, so like um, like a, say like a 15 inch
beagle, like that sort of size.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Yeah, I mean, um, yeah, there's a little bit of
variety I have I just laughingbecause I have this male that
just he's, just he's 15 pounds.
He's super tiny, um, but buttypically, yeah, you're, you're
seeing uh, the males rangingfrom, uh, maybe usually very,
very small ones would be morelike 20 pounds, and then a
(07:57):
little bit up from there, andthen the females.
You're looking at, my femaledachshund is 18 or 19 pounds, so
yeah, yeah, so that's kind of.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Yeah, that sounds like a very easy breed to
maneuver around in the woods andnot have them, you know, just
pulling your arm off the wholetime.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Yeah, I like that.
You know, physically the waythat I track is I'm a high
volume tracker, so I try to do alot and in the fall I am able
to rearrange my schedule so thatI can mostly do this full time.
So I need a dog that can reallylast all day and I can carry
(08:34):
them like.
I even will carry these dogsout to the starting point and
then if we're way in the woodswhen we end, I can carry them
out, and so that's somethingthat I can't do with my Labrador
.
He has to get all those extramiles on his paws right.
So anything that I can do toconserve them, that's really
nice to be able to hike them inand hike them out.
I'm also I really, when I amtracking, I love analyzing
(09:01):
everything and if I can have adog that I can kind of better
spot evidence, with whichtypically with a dachshund, I'm
not like basically just runningfor my life after this dog, so I
can, I'm more likely to be ableto spot that tiny little drop
of blood, you know, or that tinylittle chunk of bone, and I
(09:23):
really like that to be able tolook at it and analyze it and
try to use that to figure outwhat's going on with the wounded
animal.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Okay, yeah, that makes sense, Since we're talking
about the dogs right now too.
I mean, what's the trainingconsist of?
Do you get them as pups?
How do you kind of start them?
Speaker 2 (09:44):
So you mean like when they're puppies.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Yeah, like just training for the blood tracking.
Would you say that most anybreed is capable of this?
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Oh yes, like it's really.
You know, we have everyone'sgot their breed preferences,
that sort of thing, but it'sreally about the individual dog
and we find that a lot of dogsare able to do it as far as
breeds are concerned especially,and then when you look into the
hunting breeds and more so,there's very, very many dogs in
the hunting breeds that we seedoing it.
(10:15):
But we also see you know herdingbreeds and things like that as
well.
It's more about that dog'smotivations.
It's more about that dog'smotivations.
So we really want a dog that ishighly motivated for the work,
has a lot of drive Often that isin the form of prey drive and a
(10:37):
dog that is going to be able tobe convinced to stick with one
particular line.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Right.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Right.
So a dog that's not going tohave kind of a temperament where
they're you know, oh, thissmells good, oh, this smells
good.
Oh, this smells good, right.
So we want a lot of tenacityfrom a dog as far as being able
to stick to a line, so yeah.
But the early training, youknow it helps shape that as well
(11:06):
, for sure.
So it's like a lot of dogrelated things.
You want that combination ofgood genetics and good natural
propensity for the work, but alot of dedicated training to go
into it.
And if we can start them young,that's great.
We start them really young ifwe can.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
So so I mean, do you start with drags?
I mean, I've always heard um Idon't know myths or whatever
about how some people say thatthe dogs and I.
I've just heard this.
I'm not sure if it's true ornot.
You could be able to tell me?
But if the dogs actually trackblood or they're tracking the
animals tracks like they're senton their say like a deer you
(11:44):
know from their hooves.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Yeah, yeah.
So the dogs are tracking theanimal and they're using they're
using anything they can totrack that animal, whatever's
available.
So if the animal is bleeding,animal's bleeding like, for
example, if a hunter shoots adeer and there's a very good
(12:09):
blood trail but then it rainsand so the hunter can't see the
blood trail, the dog is stillgetting a lot of blood odor.
So the dog's certainly going touse that blood odor.
If there's no blood odor,because there's very little
blood hitting the ground, thedog's going to use whatever's
available to it.
So that's going to beinterdigital gland scent.
(12:29):
That's going to be some bodyscent.
I have my little dogs.
You'll see them kind of go upon their hind legs every once in
a while and sniff like onebranch that's kind of leading
out into the trail and thattells me that deer rubbed up
against that, that you know pinebough as it walked by.
So there'll be body scent there.
(12:51):
You know that.
We can suspect it that there'ssome kind of saliva or almost
like breath scent.
It's really anything the deeris giving off.
We're going to also assume thatyou know there's something
happening to the ground when ananimal is going across it, so
crushed vegetation, things likethat, anything that tells the
dog that the animal went thatway they'll use.
(13:12):
It's likely a combination ofseveral things and there's also
a suspicion that there's aparticular odor.
You know that a wounded animalgives off, you can call it, you
know, fear, scent or adrenalineor whatever you want to call it,
but it's a particular odor of astressed animal.
So it's really really anythingthat's available to them.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Okay, yeah, that's interesting.
So that kind of clears it upfor me.
Because, yeah, you'd hear somepeople say that they don't track
the blood, they just track, youknow, the animal itself.
But you know, that makes sense,like you said, just using
whatever they can.
So I mean it's yeah, it's kindof that's kind of right, kind of
wrong.
I guess it's just whateverthere is.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Yes, it's whatever there is, it's likely several
things at the same time.
And, that being said, when wetrain dogs, a completely valid
way to train a puppy or train adog is to use blood.
You can use just blood whenyou're training, and the reason
for that is because when you'redoing a training line, the point
(14:16):
is not always to make it asrealistic as possible.
It's good to try to make itrealistic as you can, but our
dogs know the difference betweena real animal being injured and
a training line.
The point of a training line isto teach them the process of
following their nose to get to areward.
(14:38):
It's so that we can put inchallenges that they're likely
to see a real animal do, liketurns and backtracks and, you
know, distractions and thingslike that.
It's not always, you know,imperative to make sure that
it's going to be an exact copyof the scenario that you're
going to encounter when you'retracking because, honestly, it's
(15:01):
amazing what these animals doand we're never going to be able
to completely mimic all theincredible things.
I'm learning every year,different things that animals
will do that I've never seenbefore, right.
So the point of training isbasically to do the best we can
to teach the dog about being toalign, about, you know, working
(15:22):
out scent problems, ignoringdistractions, things like that.
So if we just have blood towork with, that's a completely
valid way to train.
Some people will use deer pose,some people will use blood,
some people will use acombination of the two.
I know people that didn't havegame blood to use and they used
(15:44):
beef blood and it worked justfine.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Okay, huh, yeah, that's that's yeah, that's neat.
So when they're tracking, theyget to it.
Is it like you know?
You see some of the, the, thepolice canines.
When they get there, theirreward is like playing with the
ball or something when they find, when they find the drugs or
you know whatever they're after,like playing with the ball or
something when they find thedrugs or whatever they're after.
So is it like that with yours,or the reward is the actual
(16:08):
animal itself getting to it?
Speaker 2 (16:11):
My dog's reward is the actual animal itself and
typically, I mean, there is asmall percentage of people that
will use a different type ofreward because you got to use
whatever the dog's motivated by,right?
But, um, I personally look forand like a dog that is
intrinsically motivated byfinding that animal.
(16:33):
It it lets you it really.
It's really helpful when thething that they're trying to
find is actually what'smotivating them.
Yeah, so, so we, you knoweveryone's different with what
they do when they find theanimal, but my dogs are allowed
to go over to it and you know, Ihave one that likes to give a
little bit of a chew and I haveone that just kind of celebrates
(16:58):
and wiggles around and, youknow, licks it a little bit and
then just gets really fired upby all the excitement and, uh,
just wants to be with it.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Um, so yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, that makes sense.
Um, so I mean, does it help to?
Is there a stronger blood scentdepending on the shot placement
, like can you see the dogsreally fire off down the trail,
depending on where the animalshit?
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Yeah, I think, depending on where the animals
hit and also how fresh the odoris, or if we ourselves have like
the animal has heard us and is,you know, freshly kind of been
running off in front of us andthey're leaving a lot of fresh
adrenaline scent off in front ofus and they're leaving a lot of
(17:45):
fresh adrenaline spent For thetype of wound that they have.
That certainly is a very strongbelief.
Of course, we don't have anyactual proof of this because we
can't ask the dogs, but when welook at our dog's body language,
we believe very strongly thatthere's differences in odor
(18:07):
depending on the wound.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
And it's likely something to do with the dog
being able to identify the smellof something that is dead or
dying or going, you know, goingin the process of dying.
You often will hear trackerssay, you know, oh, it's a muscle
wound.
Whatever, it seems to be anon-fatal muscle wound.
(18:33):
My dog kind of tracks a littlebit less intensely.
Uh, they're more likely to.
I know with my dogs, especiallymy older, experienced dogs, if
I am tracking something andwe're getting all this evidence
that it's a non-fatal hit, he'llgo forever right.
(18:53):
But the second I'm like, okay,this is the time to just leave
this deer alone.
It's going to survive.
The best thing we can do iskind of leave it alone and let
it finish clotting up and callthis one, and if I pick him up
I'd be like, okay, we're done.
And he's like, yeah, okay,that's kind of his behavior and
his body language that I get.
(19:13):
You know, if the animal isdying, in general his body
language and intensity is alittle bit different.
Body language and intensity isa little bit different.
And if I were, there are somecircumstances where we have to
leave an animal that's dyingbecause we have to maybe go and
get some permission from alandowner, or we have decided
(19:35):
that the animal actually needs alittle bit more time, so we
have to leave and come back, andthat's when the dog is going to
be incredibly frustratedbecause I'm pulling him off a
dying animal and he knows it.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
They know, yeah, just the predatory instincts.
So is there many non-fatal hitswhere the hunter thinks like no
, it's a good shot, and you getthere?
And you look at the evidenceand the dog how it's reacting,
you're just like no, and you getthere and you look at the
evidence and the dog how it'sreacting, you're just like no.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
So we do our best to assess everything, both over the
phone, when we're interviewingthe hunter, and along the track.
So there's certainlycircumstances where, even over
the phone, I'm like, yeah, I'mstill going to take it, but I'm
like it doesn't sound very fatal.
However, I'm not always rightabout that Right.
So I'm just taking informationthat I get and over the years,
you know, I've seen a lot oftracks so I can make a pretty
(20:38):
good educated guess.
But it's always just aneducated guess and I'm never
100% right about these things.
So that could be one thing Icould found non-fatal.
The other thing is that a lotof animals they are hit
non-fatally and so, yeah, thehunter often is going to assume
they made a fatal shot, becauseyou know, hunters care about the
(21:02):
animals and the're.
The idea of this animal dyingout there and not being able to
find it is extremely distressing.
And so when there is a bloodtrail, um, or you know an
obvious instance where theanimal's wounded, they're going
to be like, yeah, like we got tofind it, it's out there,
they're going to assume that itis and that's.
I think that's a goodassumption that makes it so that
(21:24):
you're going to do everythingyou can to try to find it.
But and in reality a prettyhigh percentage of tracks
actually end up with non-fatalwounds or the non-fatally hit
animal.
And that's just because thereare actually a lot of non-fatal
places hit an animal.
(21:45):
But part of what we do is kindof provide that information and
so we can provide a lot of peaceof mind and track the animal
way further than we could withour eyes in order to figure out
that, oh, this animal's stillgoing.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Okay, yeah.
Yeah, I was going to ask thismight ruffle some feathers, I
don't know, but do you go tomore bow or gun recoveries.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Oh, so that's a question that I get a lot, so I
go to more gun track.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Really.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
I do, and the reason now is where I live there are
way more gun hunters than thereare archery hunters.
Okay, yeah, so just bypercentage wise I'm going to.
I'm way busier in gun seasonthan I am in archery season.
Yeah, so as far as theproportion of archery hits that
(22:45):
end up needing a tracking dogversus the proportion of gun
hits that end up needing a track, I don't know, I don't know
that.
Information, information.
I just know that number-wisenot percentage-wise, but
number-wise I take way moregun-related tracks than archery,
right, yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
That that's, you know , what the majority of people
are hunting with.
And I find too, I mean, if theanimal takes off, bow hunters
normally know just to leave it,you know, because it's rare that
they drop right then and there.
So, yeah, I mean, and then mostyou know, modern day broadheads
and stuff are usually leavingquite a, quite a blood trail.
But I mean a lot, do get away.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Yeah, we do.
I have always noticed that withbow hunters, where bow hunters
are used to having to track,where gun hunters do have had to
sometimes, but they also haveexperiences where the animal's
right there, uh, whereas the bowhunters are, you know they're
sometimes more equipped, they'vegot like their tracking
flagging tape and you knowthey're just that's part more of
(23:48):
their routine.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Um.
So it is kind of interestingworking with all different
hunters.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Yeah, yeah, it would be Well speaking about that.
So I saw one of your poststhere.
You're saying that you know ahunter.
The scent line was handled wellby the hunter.
So what do you?
What's that mean exactly?
Speaker 2 (24:09):
So when we say that a scent line has been handled or
a situation has been handledwell by a hunter, it means a few
things.
It means, first, that theyaren't calling us two or three
days later, that they called uspretty soon into realizing that
they were going to need someassistance.
Also, that they were reallycareful to not step in the track
(24:36):
of a deer.
You know, potentially steppingin blood, that sort of thing.
Carefully flagging is anotherway to handle a track really
well.
If they have a really sparseblood trail, every time they
would find a spot.
They would put some toiletpaper up in a tree or put some
flagging tape up or somethinglike that up in the tree or put
some plugging tape up orsomething like that.
(24:57):
And then the biggest way that Iwould say somebody handling a
track well would be to call mebefore they had invited like 10
of their friends out there to doa grid search.
And the reason for that isbecause whenever we're
disturbing an area, so we'recreating tons of ground
disturbance that's going toconfuse the dog because of all
(25:20):
the crushed vegetationeverywhere.
People are going to be steppingin the deer's odor, in the
deer's blood, and then they'regoing to be gritting that
everywhere.
So it's like an ink stamp on aclean piece of paper and you're
just stamping blood particlesthen all over the woods, that
sort of thing.
So you know, obviously we wantpeople to look for their, their
(25:43):
animals first, but how you dothat makes a big difference on
how difficult it is for us andhow difficult it is for the dog.
I have a really experienced dogthat after many years of work he
really can do wonders on acontaminated track.
But it's going to take hours.
(26:03):
I mean, it's going to take mehave to walk everywhere where
everybody went and just sort itout and map it out and circle,
circle, circle, circle, and thatreduces the number of other
tracks that day that I can takeand help other people.
So, uh, so yeah, so that makessense that you would have seen
me on social media praisingsomebody for handling a lot,
(26:25):
cause that's what we, what thiswould encourage people to do to
try to maximize, you know, ourtime and our efforts so they can
help as many people as possibleand, honestly, just increase
the chances of success.
Because you're going to reducethe more you contaminate and
grid, search and track bloodeverywhere.
There's also a possibility thatthe dog just will not have
(26:48):
success with the track.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Yeah, and, like you're saying too, I imagine it
makes it a lot harder.
If you know, a guy shoots adeer and he calls all his
hunting buddies out and we'vedone that and say what someone
else had just finished, you know, uh, gutting their deer and
they stepped in the guts and allthat.
And then they come out thereand they're tramping through the
woods.
Imagine the dog.
It, you know, really difficulton them.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Yeah, it's just a real, it's a real challenge for
them, for sure.
And uh, yeah, we just want,whenever we make suggestions
like this or make posts likethat, talking about people
handling tract wells, the wholeintent is to make it so that the
hunter can get their deer, orcan get their, their, their
moose, or whatever it may belike we, you know, whenever we
(27:31):
talk to hunters about this stuff, it's not to you to bug them
about their practices, it's justto be like, hey, if you do it
like this, then there's a muchhigher chance that we're going
to have a big celebration at theend of this, versus just more
disappointment.
And even if the dogs can workthrough it which a good know, a
(27:53):
good dog can it's just that dogscooked, we're cooked for the
day, you know.
And then you know the peoplethat needed our help later in
the day.
They either I've got to waituntil tomorrow or, you know,
overnight something could happento the deer, um, or we just
(28:20):
can't help them at all.
And so we, we try to educatefolks, to try to maximize the
use of the dogs and to maximizehow many people we can help.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
Yeah, no, that, that, uh, that definitely would make
your guys' job easier.
When people like you said no,you know well.
I guess this goes to my nextquestion when do you think
people need to?
I mean, it might depend on thespecies deer, moose or bear but
when is it at the point whereyou're like, ah, you probably
should have backed out a littlesooner and called me?
Speaker 2 (28:50):
You know, it really depends a little bit on the
fencing conditions.
Like, if it's like reallyterrible windy, dry conditions
and you just know that you're introuble and you don't have a
good blood trail, then it wouldbe really good just to call
(29:11):
right away, like if you knoweither your shot was a little
off, maybe you know that you hita branch, or something like
that.
If something's just wrong andthe animal is just not leaving a
good blood trail, it's good toat least touch base, you know,
and call and get some kind ofguidance.
Sometimes people will call meright away and they're like yeah
(29:32):
, I know I hit it.
There's no blood at the hitsite, I haven't even done
anything yet and I'm like okay.
And then I kind of talk themthrough, like okay, I'm, you
know, wait a little bit longer,go up a little head, tell me if
you see anything, talk themthrough it.
I love when people engage meearly because it's it's great.
(29:54):
But generally speaking, ifyou're tracking along and you
know your blood trail isstarting to get sparse and
you're really struggling to getthe next drop, what I usually
suggest is you know you shouldalways be flagging your last
drop when it starts to getsparse.
So if you find your last dropand you're doing careful
(30:15):
searching ahead, being carefulwhere you step, doing nice
careful little arc semicircles,and you're just still not really
coming up with anything after alittle bit, after you know like
20 minutes or so of this kindof careful looking ahead kind of
(30:36):
a thing, then it's a good timeto call.
You know, and in my area ifit's a Saturday in November,
which is like our busiest gunhunting time, it's always good
to touch base with us and youknow, see what our scheduling is
and that sort of thing, so thatwe can get you, you know, get
(30:59):
you on the list here so that wecould try to come out.
And if you can't get a tracker,then that's when you bring in
lots more people, start doinggridding instead of little
circles and really get the bootson the ground out there.
Completely good strategy if youdon't have a good nose
(31:22):
available, but if you can get adog it's really going to make
much quicker work of it.
To call sooner than later.
You know to call sooner thanlater and uh and and most of the
time not always, but most ofthe time when somebody, when
(31:42):
something's not right, you knowyou track up to an empty wound
bed, for example, uh, the deeris not in the wound bed and uh,
a lot of times when a deerweighs down and gets up, there's
not much blood after that bed.
If you're in that situation andyou're like, oh, there's really
no blood on this bed, that'sprobably going to be a situation
(32:03):
where you know getting a dog isgoing to be a great option,
right?
Or if you know right off thebat, you know, say you're you
took your child hunting andyou're videoing and you've got
it on video and, um, you know,you go out there and there's
just very, very little blood andyou play the video back and you
(32:26):
see that you know that theyshot a little bit further back,
which is notorious area for notbleeding.
Well, great time.
Just to touch base with a dogtracker, you know, and tell them
what's going on.
And if you get a good bloodtrail, great.
But if you don't, it's notlikely to suddenly get
incredibly easy to follow.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Yeah, yeah, no, that's good advice.
I've got a next question too.
Before you answer, I'd like toguess.
Okay, out of the deer moose andbear, what calls do you get the
most?
If I could guess, I'd say bear,just because they clawed up.
If someone's trying to followblood, I find that the bears.
(33:09):
From what I've seen, they don'tbleed too much.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
Yeah, from what I've seen they don't bleed too much.
Yeah, so as far as volume, justbecause of the number of
hunters, it's deer again justbecause we have so many deer
hunters.
But I bet you, if you couldcalculate some kind of
percentage-wise as far asanimals that would benefit from
a dog tracker or that peoplehave trouble you know you can't
(33:38):
find it I bet you bears wouldprobably be a higher percentage
for the exact reasons that youstated they.
For us in Maine it's terrain isa big problem.
So the bears like the swampyareas where it's hard to see
blood in.
They like the mossy areas whereit's hard to see blood in.
They like the mossy area whereit's hard to see blood in.
(33:59):
Um would be, if you ever gothrough like a huge pine grove,
to see blood spots on pineneedles is very difficult.
Unless they're big, littledrops on pine needles are
extremely hard to see.
So that's one factor.
Like you said, the anatomy of abear is they're fatty and the
(34:21):
exit wounds often get plugged up.
Their coats are like giantpaintbrushes and you come up to
a bear that we find and you canlook at its coat and go.
It's just amazing that none ofthat hit the ground but it just
(34:41):
soaked up like the blood soakedup in the coat, you know.
So, yeah, they're prettyamazing like that.
They also go through some ofthe most amazing, like hands and
knees.
You know, I don't evenunderstand how a bear has fit
through this.
You know, my dachshund canbarely fit through it.
(35:04):
I can barely fit through it.
I'm on my hands and kneesgetting through it.
They're just amazing animalsand so it makes them, I think,
easy to lose honestly.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Yeah, that's what I was thinking.
Yeah, with how many animals doyou have?
Many instances where you'rewith the hunter, you're tracking
, and you come upon the animaland it's still alive.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
Yeah, that happens from time to time and the way
that we handle that is, at leastin Maine, the way that our laws
are is that if it's legalhunting hours, our hunter
dispatches the animal, eventhough we're there with our dog
(36:26):
it's a Sunday, or if it's just,you know, dark, then that
because it can happen where wego up and you know we need to
put an end to things and do itquickly and humanely.
And that gives us our bestchance of doing that, because
sometimes we we have to track atnight, we have to track off
hunting hours, right, yeah, soyeah, that's how.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
That's how we handle that yeah, that's no, it's
really good.
Um well, just wonder, have you,have you had any close calls
where you're tracking a woundedbear?
You get up on the bear and it's, you know, a bit grumpy or
anything like if you had anyclose calls or um, I, it's funny
.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
It's a good question.
I have never had a super diceysituation with a bear and I've
tracked as far as people inmaine.
I live in bear country and Itrack a lot, so I track a lot of
bears.
Um for a tracker, lots and lotsof bears every year.
Never, never, had somethingreally really super bad.
(37:17):
Uh, it's moose.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
Okay, yeah, it's moose.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
Yeah, yeah, um, and I and getting back to bears, I
completely respect bears and I'msuper cautious of them Um, I
keep my dogs on extremely shortleash.
I do track bears at night, whichpeople think I'm a little crazy
for, but, uh, I really want toget these animals recovered and
people be able to eat them, andif a lot of times the way our
(37:43):
bear season is so uh, it's inSeptember and it could be very
warm Um, the best chance ofgetting that bear recovered
without any meat spoilage isgoing to be the track at night.
So I do that and I do it verycarefully and, uh, so I do that
and I do it very carefully and,you know, do everything that I
can to prevent problems.
But I also bears seem to bereally good about understanding
(38:08):
that we're restricted, like thedog is slow and on a leash, and
that it can get away from us.
So if it can get away from us,they typically will.
Okay, yeah, moose like to standtheir ground.
So, there, we've had some diceysituations there, for sure, and
we don't even track a hugeamount of moose, but the
(38:29):
percentage of moose that we havecome up on that are still alive
, that have charged us, ispretty high oh um, yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
Yeah, yeah.
Is there a particular storyyou'd like to share?
Sure.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
I'm trying to pick one here.
The worst one was one where Iactually did get physically hurt
, not very badly, I was verylucky.
But this move, this was afatally hit moose, but we were
just, I guess, a little tooearly and the moose had actually
(39:06):
this is very typical of, Iguess, all wounded game.
They'll do it like a J hook, sothey will kind of lay their
scent line and then, before theylay down to rest, they will
kind of do a hook and then watchtheir back track to see if
anything's following them, andso, uh, many animals do that.
(39:27):
So this moose did that, and thething with moose is that they
tend to use this opportunity asum, a way to also, kind of, you
know, get us off their, off,their back.
Uh, so this moose Jay hooked,and in the middle of Jay hook
with a big clump of vegetation,so this moose was bedded, uh,
right behind this vegetation,watching me walk down its track
(39:49):
with my little dog and, um, andI did not see it.
And then so, when he stood upand whipped around to charge us,
I think he was.
There was nothing I could do.
He was right there.
So I just hit the deck, hit theground, and my dog was right
there and I covered him with mybody and the moose went right
(40:13):
over us and kicked us a bit asit went over us and kicked us a
bit as it went over.
And then I, the guide I had withme was great and he is also a
bear hound guide and so he'svery used to like quick
situation, because with the offleash dogs, the hounds, they get
(40:35):
in some, you know, they getsome quick work sometimes.
He was able to dispatch themoose.
These dogs are hounds.
They get in some.
You know they gotta do somequick work sometimes.
Um, he, he was able to dispatchuh the moose safely and
everyone was okay.
Um, but uh, yeah, they moosereally hate dogs like.
Their method of dealing withcanids is typically to stand
(40:57):
their ground and and to justtake control of the situation.
So, yeah, so I don't, I don'tblame them for it.
It's a wounded animal.
You know we were, we were goingafter it and we just got really
, we got really lucky, so yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
Yeah, yeah, very lucky.
That definitely gets the theheart pumping.
Wow, that's, that's crazy, uh.
And you know, in doing this I'msure you've uh, even being a
hunter before, but doing thisyou'd learn so much more and
probably have a much biggerappreciation and just uh,
sometimes disbelief at whatthese animals are capable of,
(41:33):
like how smart they are, their,their will to survive and just
tricks and stuff that they haveto try to elude predators, I
guess.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
No, absolutely.
They're amazing, and Imentioned earlier my mentor that
got me into this, susana.
We were always discussingthings with each other and she's
been doing this for like 25years or so and I've been doing
it for, I don't know, 12 or 13.
It doesn't matter, it reallydoesn't matter how long you do
it.
You're always learning aboutthese animals and like feeding
(42:07):
something different, and theystill are like shocking us
sometimes with the things thatthey can do or how smart they
are.
Or you know like yeah, we'llcall each other up and be like
you cannot believe what thisdude did, or you know.
And then, uh, another part ofthat is really fun introducing
(42:28):
the hunters to that, becausemost hunters like things go
right all the time, right, andwe're only seeing when things
are.
Things are different and thingsgo a little wrong and and so
they're not often exposed to.
This is a very rare occasionfor hunters right when something
goes wrong like this.
So it's pretty neat to kind oflike show them that.
(42:51):
Or you know, like we'll begoing up this, we'll be
following a deer, for example,and we're going up this wicked
steep hill and we know, maybefrom the evidence, that the deer
has a leg wound and, you know,I just might be like I can't
imagine that a deer would everdo this when wounded.
And and, of course, those thathave seen it over and over, like
, oh, yeah, they're, they'reamazing, like you know yeah,
(43:13):
this is not surprising me at allLike they'll do this and um,
it's just seeing seeing thesethings.
Or like the backtracks and thetricks they'll do, or you know
the uh and they know things.
Like they'll, they'll dosomething where, uh, you know,
they'll cross a stream and maybeit's kind of a deep stream.
(43:36):
So, uh, it takes us a littlewhile to find a way to get
across the stream withoutgetting ourselves soaked in
freezing, and it's almost likethe animals figure that out and
they go oh, that's blowing themdown, all right, I'm going to
keep doing that.
So then, next thing, you know,the deer hadn't crossed the
stream, the whole track, and nowthey just went back and forth
five times across the stream.
(43:57):
Wow, yeah.
Because they're just so amazing.
You know, their instincts areincredible.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
Yeah, well, they notice what slows you down,
mm-hmm, yeah, yeah, it's amazing.
I mean, when you go out, youmust educate a lot of hunters
and I'm sure they appreciate ittoo on just things to look for
when you're tracking and whatthe animals are capable of and,
like you said, all these thingsthat they might not have uh
realized before because theyhaven't been in this situation.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
Absolutely, yeah, and I really try the best I can to
uh involve them and all that andto show them what I'm seeing
and explaining it and and alsoexplaining things about my dog,
because I don't know my dogRight, and a lot of times we're
not actually getting much forevidence, if anything.
There's been a whole trackwhere we haven't seen a drop of
(44:46):
blood Right, and then there'sthe animal and so they don't
know that I'm not just this Likewho am I?
I'm out here taking my dog fora walk, right?
I've had people tell me thatbefore.
Of course they weren't sayinganything.
And then we find the deer andthey're like you know, but they
don't know, yeah, so I get a lotof enjoyment out of making sure
I'm explaining like, oh, lookat what my dog is doing there or
(45:09):
look how fast he's going or howhard he's going.
This means that we've actuallygotten onto fresh scent of this
deer, know, and just likeexplaining what the deer is
doing, what the dog is doing, um, even like you know, say we
find like a wound bed.
We're gonna all go, the wholeteam, everyone that's out there,
(45:29):
we're gonna go and we're gonnalook at it and I'm gonna show
them, tell them what I see in it, like oh look, okay, uh, this
bed's warm.
You know this blood's so wet.
It's a darker, uh darker, blood.
Oh, I kind of you smell that.
You smell that little tinge ofscent there.
You know all that that means itmight be a further back hit.
(45:50):
You know, I'm always talkingthis stuff through so that
they're kind of understandingwhat's going on, but also just
to learn from and it's yeah,it's a big part of what we do
for sure.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
Yeah, yeah, I mean it's really neat and I'm sure,
like I said, the hunters reallyappreciate it and it's so great
that you're there.
You know for their lowest oflows on the hunting excursion to
their highest, of highs whenyou know they're not sure what
they hit the animal where itwent.
Highs, when you know theythey're not sure what they hit
the animal where it went.
And then you know when you guysfind it.
And it's just this side ofrelief and excitement and all
that.
Speaker 2 (46:24):
Yeah it's great.
There's nothing better than youknow, just being just the
relief, you know, and theexcitement from people and, of
course, like the best, is thekids right, kids.
When you do this for kids it'sgreat, but for anybody really,
it's just to have that thatrelief is a really fun
(46:49):
experience to share your dogslike their knight in shining
armor.
I guess you could say yes, ourhunters become very fond of our
dogs and it's really fun to havethem.
Like you know, remember thingsabout the dogs and I just did a
(47:10):
sportsman show recently, so Igot to see some people that I
attract for, you know, and it'sjust so fun for them to come and
be like oh how's Aldo doing?
Or how's person doing and youknow, like um great.
Speaker 1 (47:22):
Yeah Well, yeah, you know, they're just, yeah, like I
said, you're with them on allthese different emotions and
they uh come to really reallyappreciate what you and your
dogs can do, um, with woundedanimals wounded animals do you
find in a lot of scenarios willthey go towards water?
Speaker 2 (47:50):
I would say they sometimes will, but it's
certainly not.
It's not as much of a thing asit's rumored to be.
Okay and the we we find we havefound some animals right dead
in water, but not really for theamount of tracks.
We do not really that many.
And uh, the biggest thing thatanimals, the biggest
circumstances I see animalsgoing to water in, is actually
(48:11):
when, uh, the hunter actuallyaccidentally jumped the animal a
little too early.
Speaker 1 (48:18):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (48:19):
So when that animal was feeling pressured of some
kind so maybe it was a type ofwound, that takes a little bit
of time and the hunter went intoo soon and bumped the animal,
or bumped it once and didn'trealize they should back out and
then come back a little laterand it just kind of kept pushing
.
Water entries are from whatI've seen.
(48:40):
This is what I've seen.
They almost never justnaturally like right after the
hit and then they run to waterand die in water.
It's almost always when theanimal has been kind of pushed
at some point.
Speaker 1 (48:55):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (48:57):
Either by the hunter or coyotes or something like
that.
It's a.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
It's a often a desperation move for us for a
wounded animal okay, yeah, I wascurious about that because I
mean I've found on a fewtracking jobs here.
They've gone towards it, butyou always hear everyone say
that like they'll go towardswater.
So I mean, you'd know betterthan a lot of people.
So yeah, it's interesting, it'slike a myth.
Speaker 2 (49:19):
I guess you could say I mean I, I call it.
When hunters ask me that.
I always call it like a, like apartial myth, like it's not
completely a myth, but it's justnot as a significant thing as
as it's sometimes made out to be.
I'd say and I always tell people, like animals will do whatever
(49:46):
they think they have to go to besafe.
So if you're a deer that livesnear a huge bog and they know
that that's a really safe spot,then yeah, they're going to go
into the big mucky grossness,right, because that's a nice
safe spot for them.
Going to go into the big muckygrossness, right, because that's
a nice safe spot for them.
Um, if you're a mountain deerand you think your safe spot is
to go way up high on the ridge,where they're going to go, uh,
(50:08):
you know.
So it's kind of like whatever,wherever they think they're
going to be safe, and then if,if they're pressured, if they're
they're really stressed andthey're dying and they're
they're pushed, they're going to.
Well, I'm going to jump intothis lake because you know I
need to get away from you.
So, yeah, they'll do all sortsof things and water definitely
(50:31):
can factor in, for sure, incertain circumstances.
Okay, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (50:35):
Yeah, yeah, no thanks for.
So yeah, partial myth.
Okay yeah, yeah, no thanks for.
So yeah, partial myth.
Um, so can in Maine?
Can anybody do this?
Or is there any specialized uhtraining?
Do you have to show that yourdogs like certified to do it?
How's that work?
Speaker 2 (50:50):
In Maine we have a license and you need to be
licensed to do this um for otherpeople.
Um, well, for for anybody, evenfor yourself.
In order to use a dog to track awounded deer in Maine, you have
to have a license and to getthe license you need to go and
take a written exam.
(51:11):
So there's no testing involvedwith your actual dog, but there
is a written exam that you needto take.
If you are a registered Maineguide, you don't need you still
need a license unless you'regoing to only track for your
guide clients.
So if you're only going totrack for your guide clients,
you do not need a license, youjust track under your guide
(51:33):
license.
If you're going to track forother people other than your
hunting clients, then you need atracking license, but you don't
need to take the test because alot of what they test for in
the tracking exam is as a guide,you've tracked, you've tested
for above and beyond all thatstuff exam for uh, for trackers.
(52:03):
And the part of why a licenseis required is because we do
have certain abilities, right,so we can dispatch an animal um
at night and on Sundays, and soyou know there's a certain
amount of competency with gunsafety and things like that.
Um, that we need to to show.
Speaker 1 (52:17):
Okay, yeah, no, that's good, I was wondering
about that, but that definitelyhelps regulate it.
So you don't have, you know,everybody going out with their
whatever kind of dog runningaround trying to find stuff.
Speaker 2 (52:30):
For sure, and it helps that helps protect the
tracking community too, becauseyou know, tracking as it is, a
lot of people don't understandtracking, especially when you're
in a state that doesn't allowit.
So I think they picture, like,you know, dogs running around
chasing deer or something, and,and so you don't want to do
anything, that's going to giveum, kind of like a negative view
(52:55):
of it.
And if people are just kind oftaking their dogs out
willy-nilly and you know there'speople aren't kind of keeping
track of it, then it's, you know, it can just get a little, get
a little out of control and, youknow, do some negative things
(53:15):
for the hunting and trackingcommunity.
Speaker 1 (53:18):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, like I said, yeah, it's good to
hear that it's monitored andstuff.
Just to have a positive yeah,help have the positive light on
it and how help there be thatlevel of standard for you know,
the people like yourself thatare doing it and um, just helps,
probably helps with the successobviously for sure yeah, uh,
(53:39):
well, lindsey, you know Ilearned a lot.
This was really interesting.
I was looking helps probablyhelps with the success,
obviously For sure.
Yeah, Uh, well, Lindsay, youknow I learned a lot.
This was really interesting.
I was looking forward to uh tothis podcast with you.
Uh, thanks so much for comingon.
Uh, if people want to be ableto see your adventures cause you
are uh, fairly active onFacebook, which is great, I love
following it and seeing uh,where can they find you on
Facebook?
What it's under?
Speaker 2 (54:00):
So on Facebook I am Lindsay Ware.
Large game bud tracking.
Speaker 1 (54:04):
Perfect.
And then, yeah, no, you post.
I know during the season you'revery, very busy, but you still,
you know, are able to post hereand there and it's, it's
interesting to see, and, youknow, see the happy faces of
yourself and the hunters and thedogs and on a job well done.
Speaker 2 (54:20):
Well, thank you.
Speaker 1 (54:22):
Yeah, thanks.
Thanks so much for coming onand hope this season goes well
for you and hopefully we'll haveyou on again and talk about
some of your adventures.
Speaker 2 (54:31):
Thanks so much for having me.
this is hunts on outfitting podcast.
I'm your host and rookie guide,ken meyer.
I love everything hunting theoutdoors and all things
associated with it, fromstories-tos.
You'll find it here.
Welcome to the podcast.
Hey, thanks for tuning in.
(00:34):
This week we are talking aboutsomething very near and dear to
us hunters, and that's findingand recovering our game.
It's great if whatever youshoot drops dead in its tracks,
but what if it doesn't?
What if there isn't much bloodto follow and darkness is
approaching and then off in thedistance, you see some rain
clouds closing in?
Well, if you made a call to askilled animal recovery team,
like our guest today, lindsayWare, then you can be assured
(00:56):
you're in good hands.
This episode I really learned alot.
Lindsay does an excellent jobexplaining what her and her
canine team do and share somegreat stories.
In this episode we're going tobe talking about some
hard-working dogs that you cantrust will do their absolute
best to find your animal.
But we need to always make surewe are feeding our dogs the
(01:20):
best Well.
With Nook Shook Dog Food, youcan trust that you are.
This is the world's highestenergy dog food and it's all
made in a strict, non-gmofactory With trusted resellers
all over Canada and the UnitedStates.
If you go on their website andput in your area, it will show
you where someone sells it nearyou.
(01:41):
Yeah, lindsay, I mean thanksfor taking my call and I'm
really excited to learn aboutwhat you do.
But first you know, how did you?
I mean, what was your start inthe outdoors?
Did you hunt before, or haveyou had time to hunt now that
you're into the big game,tracking, I mean?
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Yeah, so I'm one of those people that grew up with
it.
I grew up in a hunting familyand, very outdoorsy, I did hunt.
I used to hunt and you kind ofhit the nail on the head,
implying that it's possible Imight not hunt anymore because I
tracked so much, and that'stotally true.
So I found that my place inhunting is and my passion is
(02:23):
really working with the dogs andtracking, and while I'm still,
of course, a big part of thehunting community, I myself
that's not really where my placeis anymore and it's not where
my passion is anymore.
It's really about doing thetracking piece.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Yeah, I mean you get to.
I mean it must be great whenyou all these hunters that are,
you know they call you up.
They're probably so worried,sick to their stomach, like I
don't know if I hit it wellenough where it is.
And then just for you to bringthem that relief by finding
their game dogs and uh, yeah, Iused to sit up when I still
(03:06):
hunted.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
I used to sit up in my tree stand and get texts and
calls from people and think,like you know, I'm gonna go help
them, like I, I'm gonna climbdown.
I'd rather climb down from thetree stand and and help uh,
instead of stay up here and hunt.
So, um, yeah, it's a a big partof it is you.
You're working with someone whois in a very distressing
(03:27):
situation and you're doingeverything that you can to try
to help them and and to help thewildlife as well.
So it's, it's great.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Right, yeah.
So I mean, have you, did youhave working dogs before this?
Like, where, where did the dogs, the dogs come into all this?
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Blood tracking was actually my introduction to
working dogs.
That was actually where I gotstarted.
Now I do other things withworking dogs.
I grew up with hunting dogsjust in the family and things
like that.
I also was at about the sametime as I was getting into blood
tracking I was getting intoprofessionally doing pet dog
training and so it kind of allcame together for me around the
(04:14):
same time.
And then, because of my workwith blood tracking dogs, I
actually got further intoworking dogs in general and
realized because of bloodtracking that this is what I
wanted to do all the time.
I wanted to work with my dogs,not just in the fall, but always
.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely so.
How did you?
I've seen, you know, videos andpictures from all over North
America and beyond of differenttypes and breeds of dogs.
What breeds do you use and whydid you settle on them?
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Well, I started off with a Labrador and I'm
currently using wire-haireddachshunds, or teckles as we
call them, and a lot of mydecision around working with the
dachshunds has to do with myregion and the laws in my region
.
So in Maine we're an on-leashtracking state, so we have to
(05:14):
have our dogs.
I work on a 30-foot leash withmy dogs and it is really, you
know, it's probably very similarto terrain that you're used to.
It's super, super, super thickand there can be some rugged
terrain, especially when we'remoose and bear tracking and when
we have a very large dog justme personally, when I have that
(05:38):
large Labrador on a leash andhe's like pulling me basically
through this terrain, it can bea little difficult for me, and
so I just personally kind oflike the smaller size dogs and
so the dachshunds kind of bringthat aspect of it to it.
They can pull me over a lotless easily than the Labrador
(06:00):
could.
And I also worked my originalmentor in blood tracking.
She is from Germany and shekind of introduced me to these
little dogs, so she was aninspiration, for sure.
But I kind of fell in love withthem and they just suited me
really well.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Okay, yeah, that's neat.
Yeah, because the labs.
I was surprised.
I mean, they have one of thebest noses of most any dog, the
Beagle's ahead of them and stuff, but they are right up there,
even with Coonhounds, which Iwas surprised about.
But the dachshunds, I mean, howbig are they?
They're what?
Would it be?
8, 10 pounds?
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Well, so they're standard-sized dachshunds, so
they tend to be the Europeanstyle working line dachshunds
tend to be a little bit longerin the leg and a little bit more
athletically built than like ashow line dachshund that you'd
find like an AKC Americandachshund.
So they are built a bit moreand really surprisingly agile.
(07:02):
They're built more for kind ofbeing in the woods, Um, but we
also use standard sizedachshunds.
So I have I've actuallyhappened to have a standard male
who's very small, Um, buttypically the males of this
breed are going to be, uh, 22pounds and upwards, maybe even
(07:24):
as as big as, you know, hightwenties.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Okay, so like um, like a, say like a 15 inch
beagle, like that sort of size.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Yeah, I mean, um, yeah, there's a little bit of
variety I have I just laughingbecause I have this male that
just he's, just he's 15 pounds.
He's super tiny, um, but buttypically, yeah, you're, you're
seeing uh, the males rangingfrom, uh, maybe usually very,
very small ones would be morelike 20 pounds, and then a
(07:57):
little bit up from there, andthen the females.
You're looking at, my femaledachshund is 18 or 19 pounds, so
yeah, yeah, so that's kind of.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Yeah, that sounds like a very easy breed to
maneuver around in the woods andnot have them, you know, just
pulling your arm off the wholetime.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Yeah, I like that.
You know, physically the waythat I track is I'm a high
volume tracker, so I try to do alot and in the fall I am able
to rearrange my schedule so thatI can mostly do this full time.
So I need a dog that can reallylast all day and I can carry
(08:34):
them like.
I even will carry these dogsout to the starting point and
then if we're way in the woodswhen we end, I can carry them
out, and so that's somethingthat I can't do with my Labrador
.
He has to get all those extramiles on his paws right.
So anything that I can do toconserve them, that's really
nice to be able to hike them inand hike them out.
I'm also I really, when I amtracking, I love analyzing
(09:01):
everything and if I can have adog that I can kind of better
spot evidence, with whichtypically with a dachshund, I'm
not like basically just runningfor my life after this dog, so I
can, I'm more likely to be ableto spot that tiny little drop
of blood, you know, or that tinylittle chunk of bone, and I
(09:23):
really like that to be able tolook at it and analyze it and
try to use that to figure outwhat's going on with the wounded
animal.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Okay, yeah, that makes sense, Since we're talking
about the dogs right now too.
I mean, what's the trainingconsist of?
Do you get them as pups?
How do you kind of start them?
Speaker 2 (09:44):
So you mean like when they're puppies.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Yeah, like just training for the blood tracking.
Would you say that most anybreed is capable of this?
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Oh yes, like it's really.
You know, we have everyone'sgot their breed preferences,
that sort of thing, but it'sreally about the individual dog
and we find that a lot of dogsare able to do it as far as
breeds are concerned especially,and then when you look into the
hunting breeds and more so,there's very, very many dogs in
the hunting breeds that we seedoing it.
(10:15):
But we also see you know herdingbreeds and things like that as
well.
It's more about that dog'smotivations.
It's more about that dog'smotivations.
So we really want a dog that ishighly motivated for the work,
has a lot of drive Often that isin the form of prey drive and a
(10:37):
dog that is going to be able tobe convinced to stick with one
particular line.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Right.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Right.
So a dog that's not going tohave kind of a temperament where
they're you know, oh, thissmells good, oh, this smells
good.
Oh, this smells good, right.
So we want a lot of tenacityfrom a dog as far as being able
to stick to a line, so yeah.
But the early training, youknow it helps shape that as well
(11:06):
, for sure.
So it's like a lot of dogrelated things.
You want that combination ofgood genetics and good natural
propensity for the work, but alot of dedicated training to go
into it.
And if we can start them young,that's great.
We start them really young ifwe can.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
So so I mean, do you start with drags?
I mean, I've always heard um Idon't know myths or whatever
about how some people say thatthe dogs and I.
I've just heard this.
I'm not sure if it's true ornot.
You could be able to tell me?
But if the dogs actually trackblood or they're tracking the
animals tracks like they're senton their say like a deer you
(11:44):
know from their hooves.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Yeah, yeah.
So the dogs are tracking theanimal and they're using they're
using anything they can totrack that animal, whatever's
available.
So if the animal is bleeding,animal's bleeding like, for
example, if a hunter shoots adeer and there's a very good
(12:09):
blood trail but then it rainsand so the hunter can't see the
blood trail, the dog is stillgetting a lot of blood odor.
So the dog's certainly going touse that blood odor.
If there's no blood odor,because there's very little
blood hitting the ground, thedog's going to use whatever's
available to it.
So that's going to beinterdigital gland scent.
(12:29):
That's going to be some bodyscent.
I have my little dogs.
You'll see them kind of go upon their hind legs every once in
a while and sniff like onebranch that's kind of leading
out into the trail and thattells me that deer rubbed up
against that, that you know pinebough as it walked by.
So there'll be body scent there.
(12:51):
You know that.
We can suspect it that there'ssome kind of saliva or almost
like breath scent.
It's really anything the deeris giving off.
We're going to also assume thatyou know there's something
happening to the ground when ananimal is going across it, so
crushed vegetation, things likethat, anything that tells the
dog that the animal went thatway they'll use.
(13:12):
It's likely a combination ofseveral things and there's also
a suspicion that there's aparticular odor.
You know that a wounded animalgives off, you can call it, you
know, fear, scent or adrenalineor whatever you want to call it,
but it's a particular odor of astressed animal.
So it's really really anythingthat's available to them.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Okay, yeah, that's interesting.
So that kind of clears it upfor me.
Because, yeah, you'd hear somepeople say that they don't track
the blood, they just track, youknow, the animal itself.
But you know, that makes sense,like you said, just using
whatever they can.
So I mean it's yeah, it's kindof that's kind of right, kind of
wrong.
I guess it's just whateverthere is.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Yes, it's whatever there is, it's likely several
things at the same time.
And, that being said, when wetrain dogs, a completely valid
way to train a puppy or train adog is to use blood.
You can use just blood whenyou're training, and the reason
for that is because when you'redoing a training line, the point
(14:16):
is not always to make it asrealistic as possible.
It's good to try to make itrealistic as you can, but our
dogs know the difference betweena real animal being injured and
a training line.
The point of a training line isto teach them the process of
following their nose to get to areward.
(14:38):
It's so that we can put inchallenges that they're likely
to see a real animal do, liketurns and backtracks and, you
know, distractions and thingslike that.
It's not always, you know,imperative to make sure that
it's going to be an exact copyof the scenario that you're
going to encounter when you'retracking because, honestly, it's
(15:01):
amazing what these animals doand we're never going to be able
to completely mimic all theincredible things.
I'm learning every year,different things that animals
will do that I've never seenbefore, right.
So the point of training isbasically to do the best we can
to teach the dog about being toalign, about, you know, working
(15:22):
out scent problems, ignoringdistractions, things like that.
So if we just have blood towork with, that's a completely
valid way to train.
Some people will use deer pose,some people will use blood,
some people will use acombination of the two.
I know people that didn't havegame blood to use and they used
(15:44):
beef blood and it worked justfine.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Okay, huh, yeah, that's that's yeah, that's neat.
So when they're tracking, theyget to it.
Is it like you know?
You see some of the, the, thepolice canines.
When they get there, theirreward is like playing with the
ball or something when they find, when they find the drugs or
you know whatever they're after,like playing with the ball or
something when they find thedrugs or whatever they're after.
So is it like that with yours,or the reward is the actual
(16:08):
animal itself getting to it?
Speaker 2 (16:11):
My dog's reward is the actual animal itself and
typically, I mean, there is asmall percentage of people that
will use a different type ofreward because you got to use
whatever the dog's motivated by,right?
But, um, I personally look forand like a dog that is
intrinsically motivated byfinding that animal.
(16:33):
It it lets you it really.
It's really helpful when thething that they're trying to
find is actually what'smotivating them.
Yeah, so, so we, you knoweveryone's different with what
they do when they find theanimal, but my dogs are allowed
to go over to it and you know, Ihave one that likes to give a
little bit of a chew and I haveone that just kind of celebrates
(16:58):
and wiggles around and, youknow, licks it a little bit and
then just gets really fired upby all the excitement and, uh,
just wants to be with it.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Um, so yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, that makes sense.
Um, so I mean, does it help to?
Is there a stronger blood scentdepending on the shot placement
, like can you see the dogsreally fire off down the trail,
depending on where the animalshit?
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Yeah, I think, depending on where the animals
hit and also how fresh the odoris, or if we ourselves have like
the animal has heard us and is,you know, freshly kind of been
running off in front of us andthey're leaving a lot of fresh
adrenaline scent off in front ofus and they're leaving a lot of
(17:45):
fresh adrenaline spent For thetype of wound that they have.
That certainly is a very strongbelief.
Of course, we don't have anyactual proof of this because we
can't ask the dogs, but when welook at our dog's body language,
we believe very strongly thatthere's differences in odor
(18:07):
depending on the wound.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
And it's likely something to do with the dog
being able to identify the smellof something that is dead or
dying or going, you know, goingin the process of dying.
You often will hear trackerssay, you know, oh, it's a muscle
wound.
Whatever, it seems to be anon-fatal muscle wound.
(18:33):
My dog kind of tracks a littlebit less intensely.
Uh, they're more likely to.
I know with my dogs, especiallymy older, experienced dogs, if
I am tracking something andwe're getting all this evidence
that it's a non-fatal hit, he'llgo forever right.
(18:53):
But the second I'm like, okay,this is the time to just leave
this deer alone.
It's going to survive.
The best thing we can do iskind of leave it alone and let
it finish clotting up and callthis one, and if I pick him up
I'd be like, okay, we're done.
And he's like, yeah, okay,that's kind of his behavior and
his body language that I get.
(19:13):
You know, if the animal isdying, in general his body
language and intensity is alittle bit different.
Body language and intensity isa little bit different.
And if I were, there are somecircumstances where we have to
leave an animal that's dyingbecause we have to maybe go and
get some permission from alandowner, or we have decided
(19:35):
that the animal actually needs alittle bit more time, so we
have to leave and come back, andthat's when the dog is going to
be incredibly frustratedbecause I'm pulling him off a
dying animal and he knows it.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
They know, yeah, just the predatory instincts.
So is there many non-fatal hitswhere the hunter thinks like no
, it's a good shot, and you getthere?
And you look at the evidenceand the dog how it's reacting,
you're just like no, and you getthere and you look at the
evidence and the dog how it'sreacting, you're just like no.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
So we do our best to assess everything, both over the
phone, when we're interviewingthe hunter, and along the track.
So there's certainlycircumstances where, even over
the phone, I'm like, yeah, I'mstill going to take it, but I'm
like it doesn't sound very fatal.
However, I'm not always rightabout that Right.
So I'm just taking informationthat I get and over the years,
you know, I've seen a lot oftracks so I can make a pretty
(20:38):
good educated guess.
But it's always just aneducated guess and I'm never
100% right about these things.
So that could be one thing Icould found non-fatal.
The other thing is that a lotof animals they are hit
non-fatally and so, yeah, thehunter often is going to assume
they made a fatal shot, becauseyou know, hunters care about the
(21:02):
animals and the're.
The idea of this animal dyingout there and not being able to
find it is extremely distressing.
And so when there is a bloodtrail, um, or you know an
obvious instance where theanimal's wounded, they're going
to be like, yeah, like we got tofind it, it's out there,
they're going to assume that itis and that's.
I think that's a goodassumption that makes it so that
(21:24):
you're going to do everythingyou can to try to find it.
But and in reality a prettyhigh percentage of tracks
actually end up with non-fatalwounds or the non-fatally hit
animal.
And that's just because thereare actually a lot of non-fatal
places hit an animal.
(21:45):
But part of what we do is kindof provide that information and
so we can provide a lot of peaceof mind and track the animal
way further than we could withour eyes in order to figure out
that, oh, this animal's stillgoing.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Okay, yeah.
Yeah, I was going to ask thismight ruffle some feathers, I
don't know, but do you go tomore bow or gun recoveries.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Oh, so that's a question that I get a lot, so I
go to more gun track.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Really.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
I do, and the reason now is where I live there are
way more gun hunters than thereare archery hunters.
Okay, yeah, so just bypercentage wise I'm going to.
I'm way busier in gun seasonthan I am in archery season.
Yeah, so as far as theproportion of archery hits that
(22:45):
end up needing a tracking dogversus the proportion of gun
hits that end up needing a track, I don't know, I don't know
that.
Information, information.
I just know that number-wisenot percentage-wise, but
number-wise I take way moregun-related tracks than archery,
right, yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
That that's, you know , what the majority of people
are hunting with.
And I find too, I mean, if theanimal takes off, bow hunters
normally know just to leave it,you know, because it's rare that
they drop right then and there.
So, yeah, I mean, and then mostyou know, modern day broadheads
and stuff are usually leavingquite a, quite a blood trail.
But I mean a lot, do get away.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Yeah, we do.
I have always noticed that withbow hunters, where bow hunters
are used to having to track,where gun hunters do have had to
sometimes, but they also haveexperiences where the animal's
right there, uh, whereas the bowhunters are, you know they're
sometimes more equipped, they'vegot like their tracking
flagging tape and you knowthey're just that's part more of
(23:48):
their routine.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Um.
So it is kind of interestingworking with all different
hunters.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Yeah, yeah, it would be Well speaking about that.
So I saw one of your poststhere.
You're saying that you know ahunter.
The scent line was handled wellby the hunter.
So what do you?
What's that mean exactly?
Speaker 2 (24:09):
So when we say that a scent line has been handled or
a situation has been handledwell by a hunter, it means a few
things.
It means, first, that theyaren't calling us two or three
days later, that they called uspretty soon into realizing that
they were going to need someassistance.
Also, that they were reallycareful to not step in the track
(24:36):
of a deer.
You know, potentially steppingin blood, that sort of thing.
Carefully flagging is anotherway to handle a track really
well.
If they have a really sparseblood trail, every time they
would find a spot.
They would put some toiletpaper up in a tree or put some
flagging tape up or somethinglike that up in the tree or put
some plugging tape up orsomething like that.
(24:57):
And then the biggest way that Iwould say somebody handling a
track well would be to call mebefore they had invited like 10
of their friends out there to doa grid search.
And the reason for that isbecause whenever we're
disturbing an area, so we'recreating tons of ground
disturbance that's going toconfuse the dog because of all
(25:20):
the crushed vegetationeverywhere.
People are going to be steppingin the deer's odor, in the
deer's blood, and then they'regoing to be gritting that
everywhere.
So it's like an ink stamp on aclean piece of paper and you're
just stamping blood particlesthen all over the woods, that
sort of thing.
So you know, obviously we wantpeople to look for their, their
(25:43):
animals first, but how you dothat makes a big difference on
how difficult it is for us andhow difficult it is for the dog.
I have a really experienced dogthat after many years of work he
really can do wonders on acontaminated track.
But it's going to take hours.
(26:03):
I mean, it's going to take mehave to walk everywhere where
everybody went and just sort itout and map it out and circle,
circle, circle, circle, and thatreduces the number of other
tracks that day that I can takeand help other people.
So, uh, so yeah, so that makessense that you would have seen
me on social media praisingsomebody for handling a lot,
(26:25):
cause that's what we, what thiswould encourage people to do to
try to maximize, you know, ourtime and our efforts so they can
help as many people as possibleand, honestly, just increase
the chances of success.
Because you're going to reducethe more you contaminate and
grid, search and track bloodeverywhere.
There's also a possibility thatthe dog just will not have
(26:48):
success with the track.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Yeah, and, like you're saying too, I imagine it
makes it a lot harder.
If you know, a guy shoots adeer and he calls all his
hunting buddies out and we'vedone that and say what someone
else had just finished, you know, uh, gutting their deer and
they stepped in the guts and allthat.
And then they come out thereand they're tramping through the
woods.
Imagine the dog.
It, you know, really difficulton them.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Yeah, it's just a real, it's a real challenge for
them, for sure.
And uh, yeah, we just want,whenever we make suggestions
like this or make posts likethat, talking about people
handling tract wells, the wholeintent is to make it so that the
hunter can get their deer, orcan get their, their, their
moose, or whatever it may belike we, you know, whenever we
(27:31):
talk to hunters about this stuff, it's not to you to bug them
about their practices, it's justto be like, hey, if you do it
like this, then there's a muchhigher chance that we're going
to have a big celebration at theend of this, versus just more
disappointment.
And even if the dogs can workthrough it which a good know, a
(27:53):
good dog can it's just that dogscooked, we're cooked for the
day, you know.
And then you know the peoplethat needed our help later in
the day.
They either I've got to waituntil tomorrow or, you know,
overnight something could happento the deer, um, or we just
(28:20):
can't help them at all.
And so we, we try to educatefolks, to try to maximize the
use of the dogs and to maximizehow many people we can help.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
Yeah, no, that, that, uh, that definitely would make
your guys' job easier.
When people like you said no,you know well.
I guess this goes to my nextquestion when do you think
people need to?
I mean, it might depend on thespecies deer, moose or bear but
when is it at the point whereyou're like, ah, you probably
should have backed out a littlesooner and called me?
Speaker 2 (28:50):
You know, it really depends a little bit on the
fencing conditions.
Like, if it's like reallyterrible windy, dry conditions
and you just know that you're introuble and you don't have a
good blood trail, then it wouldbe really good just to call
(29:11):
right away, like if you knoweither your shot was a little
off, maybe you know that you hita branch, or something like
that.
If something's just wrong andthe animal is just not leaving a
good blood trail, it's good toat least touch base, you know,
and call and get some kind ofguidance.
Sometimes people will call meright away and they're like yeah
(29:32):
, I know I hit it.
There's no blood at the hitsite, I haven't even done
anything yet and I'm like okay.
And then I kind of talk themthrough, like okay, I'm, you
know, wait a little bit longer,go up a little head, tell me if
you see anything, talk themthrough it.
I love when people engage meearly because it's it's great.
(29:54):
But generally speaking, ifyou're tracking along and you
know your blood trail isstarting to get sparse and
you're really struggling to getthe next drop, what I usually
suggest is you know you shouldalways be flagging your last
drop when it starts to getsparse.
So if you find your last dropand you're doing careful
(30:15):
searching ahead, being carefulwhere you step, doing nice
careful little arc semicircles,and you're just still not really
coming up with anything after alittle bit, after you know like
20 minutes or so of this kindof careful looking ahead kind of
(30:36):
a thing, then it's a good timeto call.
You know, and in my area ifit's a Saturday in November,
which is like our busiest gunhunting time, it's always good
to touch base with us and youknow, see what our scheduling is
and that sort of thing, so thatwe can get you, you know, get
(30:59):
you on the list here so that wecould try to come out.
And if you can't get a tracker,then that's when you bring in
lots more people, start doinggridding instead of little
circles and really get the bootson the ground out there.
Completely good strategy if youdon't have a good nose
(31:22):
available, but if you can get adog it's really going to make
much quicker work of it.
To call sooner than later.
You know to call sooner thanlater and uh and and most of the
time not always, but most ofthe time when somebody, when
(31:42):
something's not right, you knowyou track up to an empty wound
bed, for example, uh, the deeris not in the wound bed and uh,
a lot of times when a deerweighs down and gets up, there's
not much blood after that bed.
If you're in that situation andyou're like, oh, there's really
no blood on this bed, that'sprobably going to be a situation
(32:03):
where you know getting a dog isgoing to be a great option,
right?
Or if you know right off thebat, you know, say you're you
took your child hunting andyou're videoing and you've got
it on video and, um, you know,you go out there and there's
just very, very little blood andyou play the video back and you
(32:26):
see that you know that theyshot a little bit further back,
which is notorious area for notbleeding.
Well, great time.
Just to touch base with a dogtracker, you know, and tell them
what's going on.
And if you get a good bloodtrail, great.
But if you don't, it's notlikely to suddenly get
incredibly easy to follow.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Yeah, yeah, no, that's good advice.
I've got a next question too.
Before you answer, I'd like toguess.
Okay, out of the deer moose andbear, what calls do you get the
most?
If I could guess, I'd say bear,just because they clawed up.
If someone's trying to followblood, I find that the bears.
(33:09):
From what I've seen, they don'tbleed too much.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
Yeah, from what I've seen they don't bleed too much.
Yeah, so as far as volume, justbecause of the number of
hunters, it's deer again justbecause we have so many deer
hunters.
But I bet you, if you couldcalculate some kind of
percentage-wise as far asanimals that would benefit from
a dog tracker or that peoplehave trouble you know you can't
(33:38):
find it I bet you bears wouldprobably be a higher percentage
for the exact reasons that youstated they.
For us in Maine it's terrain isa big problem.
So the bears like the swampyareas where it's hard to see
blood in.
They like the mossy areas whereit's hard to see blood in.
They like the mossy area whereit's hard to see blood in.
(33:59):
Um would be, if you ever gothrough like a huge pine grove,
to see blood spots on pineneedles is very difficult.
Unless they're big, littledrops on pine needles are
extremely hard to see.
So that's one factor.
Like you said, the anatomy of abear is they're fatty and the
(34:21):
exit wounds often get plugged up.
Their coats are like giantpaintbrushes and you come up to
a bear that we find and you canlook at its coat and go.
It's just amazing that none ofthat hit the ground but it just
(34:41):
soaked up like the blood soakedup in the coat, you know.
So, yeah, they're prettyamazing like that.
They also go through some ofthe most amazing, like hands and
knees.
You know, I don't evenunderstand how a bear has fit
through this.
You know, my dachshund canbarely fit through it.
(35:04):
I can barely fit through it.
I'm on my hands and kneesgetting through it.
They're just amazing animalsand so it makes them, I think,
easy to lose honestly.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Yeah, that's what I was thinking.
Yeah, with how many animals doyou have?
Many instances where you'rewith the hunter, you're tracking
, and you come upon the animaland it's still alive.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
Yeah, that happens from time to time and the way
that we handle that is, at leastin Maine, the way that our laws
are is that if it's legalhunting hours, our hunter
dispatches the animal, eventhough we're there with our dog
(36:26):
it's a Sunday, or if it's just,you know, dark, then that
because it can happen where wego up and you know we need to
put an end to things and do itquickly and humanely.
And that gives us our bestchance of doing that, because
sometimes we we have to track atnight, we have to track off
hunting hours, right, yeah, soyeah, that's how.
Speaker 1 (36:39):
That's how we handle that yeah, that's no, it's
really good.
Um well, just wonder, have you,have you had any close calls
where you're tracking a woundedbear?
You get up on the bear and it's, you know, a bit grumpy or
anything like if you had anyclose calls or um, I, it's funny
.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
It's a good question.
I have never had a super diceysituation with a bear and I've
tracked as far as people inmaine.
I live in bear country and Itrack a lot, so I track a lot of
bears.
Um for a tracker, lots and lotsof bears every year.
Never, never, had somethingreally really super bad.
(37:17):
Uh, it's moose.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
Okay, yeah, it's moose.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
Yeah, yeah, um, and I and getting back to bears, I
completely respect bears and I'msuper cautious of them Um, I
keep my dogs on extremely shortleash.
I do track bears at night, whichpeople think I'm a little crazy
for, but, uh, I really want toget these animals recovered and
people be able to eat them, andif a lot of times the way our
(37:43):
bear season is so uh, it's inSeptember and it could be very
warm Um, the best chance ofgetting that bear recovered
without any meat spoilage isgoing to be the track at night.
So I do that and I do it verycarefully and, uh, so I do that
and I do it very carefully and,you know, do everything that I
can to prevent problems.
But I also bears seem to bereally good about understanding
(38:08):
that we're restricted, like thedog is slow and on a leash, and
that it can get away from us.
So if it can get away from us,they typically will.
Okay, yeah, moose like to standtheir ground.
So, there, we've had some diceysituations there, for sure, and
we don't even track a hugeamount of moose, but the
(38:29):
percentage of moose that we havecome up on that are still alive
, that have charged us, ispretty high oh um, yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
Yeah, yeah.
Is there a particular storyyou'd like to share?
Sure.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
I'm trying to pick one here.
The worst one was one where Iactually did get physically hurt
, not very badly, I was verylucky.
But this move, this was afatally hit moose, but we were
just, I guess, a little tooearly and the moose had actually
(39:06):
this is very typical of, Iguess, all wounded game.
They'll do it like a J hook, sothey will kind of lay their
scent line and then, before theylay down to rest, they will
kind of do a hook and then watchtheir back track to see if
anything's following them, andso, uh, many animals do that.
(39:27):
So this moose did that, and thething with moose is that they
tend to use this opportunity asum, a way to also, kind of, you
know, get us off their, off,their back.
Uh, so this moose Jay hooked,and in the middle of Jay hook
with a big clump of vegetation,so this moose was bedded, uh,
right behind this vegetation,watching me walk down its track
(39:49):
with my little dog and, um, andI did not see it.
And then so, when he stood upand whipped around to charge us,
I think he was.
There was nothing I could do.
He was right there.
So I just hit the deck, hit theground, and my dog was right
there and I covered him with mybody and the moose went right
(40:13):
over us and kicked us a bit asit went over us and kicked us a
bit as it went over.
And then I, the guide I had withme was great and he is also a
bear hound guide and so he'svery used to like quick
situation, because with the offleash dogs, the hounds, they get
(40:35):
in some, you know, they getsome quick work sometimes.
He was able to dispatch themoose.
These dogs are hounds.
They get in some.
You know they gotta do somequick work sometimes.
Um, he, he was able to dispatchuh the moose safely and
everyone was okay.
Um, but uh, yeah, they moosereally hate dogs like.
Their method of dealing withcanids is typically to stand
(40:57):
their ground and and to justtake control of the situation.
So, yeah, so I don't, I don'tblame them for it.
It's a wounded animal.
You know we were, we were goingafter it and we just got really
, we got really lucky, so yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
Yeah, yeah, very lucky.
That definitely gets the theheart pumping.
Wow, that's, that's crazy, uh.
And you know, in doing this I'msure you've uh, even being a
hunter before, but doing thisyou'd learn so much more and
probably have a much biggerappreciation and just uh,
sometimes disbelief at whatthese animals are capable of,
(41:33):
like how smart they are, their,their will to survive and just
tricks and stuff that they haveto try to elude predators, I
guess.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
No, absolutely.
They're amazing, and Imentioned earlier my mentor that
got me into this, susana.
We were always discussingthings with each other and she's
been doing this for like 25years or so and I've been doing
it for, I don't know, 12 or 13.
It doesn't matter, it reallydoesn't matter how long you do
it.
You're always learning aboutthese animals and like feeding
(42:07):
something different, and theystill are like shocking us
sometimes with the things thatthey can do or how smart they
are.
Or you know like yeah, we'llcall each other up and be like
you cannot believe what thisdude did, or you know.
And then, uh, another part ofthat is really fun introducing
(42:28):
the hunters to that, becausemost hunters like things go
right all the time, right, andwe're only seeing when things
are.
Things are different and thingsgo a little wrong and and so
they're not often exposed to.
This is a very rare occasionfor hunters right when something
goes wrong like this.
So it's pretty neat to kind oflike show them that.
(42:51):
Or you know, like we'll begoing up this, we'll be
following a deer, for example,and we're going up this wicked
steep hill and we know, maybefrom the evidence, that the deer
has a leg wound and, you know,I just might be like I can't
imagine that a deer would everdo this when wounded.
And and, of course, those thathave seen it over and over, like
, oh, yeah, they're, they'reamazing, like you know yeah,
(43:13):
this is not surprising me at allLike they'll do this and um,
it's just seeing seeing thesethings.
Or like the backtracks and thetricks they'll do, or you know
the uh and they know things.
Like they'll, they'll dosomething where, uh, you know,
they'll cross a stream and maybeit's kind of a deep stream.
(43:36):
So, uh, it takes us a littlewhile to find a way to get
across the stream withoutgetting ourselves soaked in
freezing, and it's almost likethe animals figure that out and
they go oh, that's blowing themdown, all right, I'm going to
keep doing that.
So then, next thing, you know,the deer hadn't crossed the
stream, the whole track, and nowthey just went back and forth
five times across the stream.
(43:57):
Wow, yeah.
Because they're just so amazing.
You know, their instincts areincredible.
Speaker 1 (44:05):
Yeah, well, they notice what slows you down,
mm-hmm, yeah, yeah, it's amazing.
I mean, when you go out, youmust educate a lot of hunters
and I'm sure they appreciate ittoo on just things to look for
when you're tracking and whatthe animals are capable of and,
like you said, all these thingsthat they might not have uh
realized before because theyhaven't been in this situation.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
Absolutely, yeah, and I really try the best I can to
uh involve them and all that andto show them what I'm seeing
and explaining it and and alsoexplaining things about my dog,
because I don't know my dogRight, and a lot of times we're
not actually getting much forevidence, if anything.
There's been a whole trackwhere we haven't seen a drop of
(44:46):
blood Right, and then there'sthe animal and so they don't
know that I'm not just this Likewho am I?
I'm out here taking my dog fora walk, right?
I've had people tell me thatbefore.
Of course they weren't sayinganything.
And then we find the deer andthey're like you know, but they
don't know, yeah, so I get a lotof enjoyment out of making sure
I'm explaining like, oh, lookat what my dog is doing there or
(45:09):
look how fast he's going or howhard he's going.
This means that we've actuallygotten onto fresh scent of this
deer, know, and just likeexplaining what the deer is
doing, what the dog is doing, um, even like you know, say we
find like a wound bed.
We're gonna all go, the wholeteam, everyone that's out there,
(45:29):
we're gonna go and we're gonnalook at it and I'm gonna show
them, tell them what I see in it, like oh look, okay, uh, this
bed's warm.
You know this blood's so wet.
It's a darker, uh darker, blood.
Oh, I kind of you smell that.
You smell that little tinge ofscent there.
You know all that that means itmight be a further back hit.
(45:50):
You know, I'm always talkingthis stuff through so that
they're kind of understandingwhat's going on, but also just
to learn from and it's yeah,it's a big part of what we do
for sure.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
Yeah, yeah, I mean it's really neat and I'm sure,
like I said, the hunters reallyappreciate it and it's so great
that you're there.
You know for their lowest oflows on the hunting excursion to
their highest, of highs whenyou know they're not sure what
they hit the animal where itwent.
Highs, when you know theythey're not sure what they hit
the animal where it went.
And then you know when you guysfind it.
And it's just this side ofrelief and excitement and all
that.
Speaker 2 (46:24):
Yeah it's great.
There's nothing better than youknow, just being just the
relief, you know, and theexcitement from people and, of
course, like the best, is thekids right, kids.
When you do this for kids it'sgreat, but for anybody really,
it's just to have that thatrelief is a really fun
(46:49):
experience to share your dogslike their knight in shining
armor.
I guess you could say yes, ourhunters become very fond of our
dogs and it's really fun to havethem.
Like you know, remember thingsabout the dogs and I just did a
(47:10):
sportsman show recently, so Igot to see some people that I
attract for, you know, and it'sjust so fun for them to come and
be like oh how's Aldo doing?
Or how's person doing and youknow, like um great.
Speaker 1 (47:22):
Yeah Well, yeah, you know, they're just, yeah, like I
said, you're with them on allthese different emotions and
they uh come to really reallyappreciate what you and your
dogs can do, um, with woundedanimals wounded animals do you
find in a lot of scenarios willthey go towards water?
Speaker 2 (47:50):
I would say they sometimes will, but it's
certainly not.
It's not as much of a thing asit's rumored to be.
Okay and the we we find we havefound some animals right dead
in water, but not really for theamount of tracks.
We do not really that many.
And uh, the biggest thing thatanimals, the biggest
circumstances I see animalsgoing to water in, is actually
(48:11):
when, uh, the hunter actuallyaccidentally jumped the animal a
little too early.
Speaker 1 (48:18):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (48:19):
So when that animal was feeling pressured of some
kind so maybe it was a type ofwound, that takes a little bit
of time and the hunter went intoo soon and bumped the animal,
or bumped it once and didn'trealize they should back out and
then come back a little laterand it just kind of kept pushing
.
Water entries are from whatI've seen.
(48:40):
This is what I've seen.
They almost never justnaturally like right after the
hit and then they run to waterand die in water.
It's almost always when theanimal has been kind of pushed
at some point.
Speaker 1 (48:55):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (48:57):
Either by the hunter or coyotes or something like
that.
It's a.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
It's a often a desperation move for us for a
wounded animal okay, yeah, I wascurious about that because I
mean I've found on a fewtracking jobs here.
They've gone towards it, butyou always hear everyone say
that like they'll go towardswater.
So I mean, you'd know betterthan a lot of people.
So yeah, it's interesting, it'slike a myth.
Speaker 2 (49:19):
I guess you could say I mean I, I call it.
When hunters ask me that.
I always call it like a, like apartial myth, like it's not
completely a myth, but it's justnot as a significant thing as
as it's sometimes made out to be.
I'd say and I always tell people, like animals will do whatever
(49:46):
they think they have to go to besafe.
So if you're a deer that livesnear a huge bog and they know
that that's a really safe spot,then yeah, they're going to go
into the big mucky grossness,right, because that's a nice
safe spot for them.
Going to go into the big muckygrossness, right, because that's
a nice safe spot for them.
Um, if you're a mountain deerand you think your safe spot is
to go way up high on the ridge,where they're going to go, uh,
(50:08):
you know.
So it's kind of like whatever,wherever they think they're
going to be safe, and then if,if they're pressured, if they're
they're really stressed andthey're dying and they're
they're pushed, they're going to.
Well, I'm going to jump intothis lake because you know I
need to get away from you.
So, yeah, they'll do all sortsof things and water definitely
(50:31):
can factor in, for sure, incertain circumstances.
Okay, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (50:35):
Yeah, yeah, no thanks for.
So yeah, partial myth.
Okay yeah, yeah, no thanks for.
So yeah, partial myth.
Um, so can in Maine?
Can anybody do this?
Or is there any specialized uhtraining?
Do you have to show that yourdogs like certified to do it?
How's that work?
Speaker 2 (50:50):
In Maine we have a license and you need to be
licensed to do this um for otherpeople.
Um, well, for for anybody, evenfor yourself.
In order to use a dog to track awounded deer in Maine, you have
to have a license and to getthe license you need to go and
take a written exam.
(51:11):
So there's no testing involvedwith your actual dog, but there
is a written exam that you needto take.
If you are a registered Maineguide, you don't need you still
need a license unless you'regoing to only track for your
guide clients.
So if you're only going totrack for your guide clients,
you do not need a license, youjust track under your guide
(51:33):
license.
If you're going to track forother people other than your
hunting clients, then you need atracking license, but you don't
need to take the test because alot of what they test for in
the tracking exam is as a guide,you've tracked, you've tested
for above and beyond all thatstuff exam for uh, for trackers.
(52:03):
And the part of why a licenseis required is because we do
have certain abilities, right,so we can dispatch an animal um
at night and on Sundays, and soyou know there's a certain
amount of competency with gunsafety and things like that.
Um, that we need to to show.
Speaker 1 (52:17):
Okay, yeah, no, that's good, I was wondering
about that, but that definitelyhelps regulate it.
So you don't have, you know,everybody going out with their
whatever kind of dog runningaround trying to find stuff.
Speaker 2 (52:30):
For sure, and it helps that helps protect the
tracking community too, becauseyou know, tracking as it is, a
lot of people don't understandtracking, especially when you're
in a state that doesn't allowit.
So I think they picture, like,you know, dogs running around
chasing deer or something, and,and so you don't want to do
anything, that's going to giveum, kind of like a negative view
(52:55):
of it.
And if people are just kind oftaking their dogs out
willy-nilly and you know there'speople aren't kind of keeping
track of it, then it's, you know, it can just get a little, get
a little out of control and, youknow, do some negative things
(53:15):
for the hunting and trackingcommunity.
Speaker 1 (53:18):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, like I said, yeah, it's good to
hear that it's monitored andstuff.
Just to have a positive yeah,help have the positive light on
it and how help there be thatlevel of standard for you know,
the people like yourself thatare doing it and um, just helps,
probably helps with the successobviously for sure yeah, uh,
(53:39):
well, lindsey, you know Ilearned a lot.
This was really interesting.
I was looking helps probablyhelps with the success,
obviously For sure.
Yeah, Uh, well, Lindsay, youknow I learned a lot.
This was really interesting.
I was looking forward to uh tothis podcast with you.
Uh, thanks so much for comingon.
Uh, if people want to be ableto see your adventures cause you
are uh, fairly active onFacebook, which is great, I love
following it and seeing uh,where can they find you on
Facebook?
What it's under?
Speaker 2 (54:00):
So on Facebook I am Lindsay Ware.
Large game bud tracking.
Speaker 1 (54:04):
Perfect.
And then, yeah, no, you post.
I know during the season you'revery, very busy, but you still,
you know, are able to post hereand there and it's, it's
interesting to see, and, youknow, see the happy faces of
yourself and the hunters and thedogs and on a job well done.
Speaker 2 (54:20):
Well, thank you.
Speaker 1 (54:22):
Yeah, thanks.
Thanks so much for coming onand hope this season goes well
for you and hopefully we'll haveyou on again and talk about
some of your adventures.
Speaker 2 (54:31):
Thanks so much for having me.
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