March 24, 2025 • 26 mins
Am I abusive? How can I acknowledge the truth without beating myself up? What makes a good and safe man? Dr. Andrew Bauman explains two ways to be abusive, the difference between humility and self-hatred, and how to express clean anger and fight fair.
Dr. Andrew J. Bauman is the founder and director of the Christian Counseling Center: For Sexual Health & Trauma (CCC) and has served as a mental health counselor. Also formerly a pastor, Andrew now works with men and women to bring healing and wholeness to their sexual and spiritual lives.
Buy Andrew's books (paid links):
- Safe Church
- How Not To Be An *SS
- The Sexually Healthy Man
- The Psychology Of Porn
- Stumbling Toward Wholeness
Learn more about Andrew's 4-day men's workshops here.
Connect with Andrew at andrewjbauman.com.
Take the Husband Material Journey...
- Step 1: Listen to this podcast or watch on YouTube
- Step 2: Join the private Husband Material Community
- Step 3: Take the free mini-course: How To Outgrow Porn
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Thanks for listening!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Hey man, thanks for listeningto my interview with Dr Andrew
(00:22):
Bauman about abuse.
I just want to acknowledge howvulnerable and brave it is for
you to even engage with thistopic.
It's tough, it's reallychallenging and it's so
important and it's so important.
(00:43):
Andrew is going to guide you inhow to acknowledge some
difficult truths while also notbeating yourself up or shaming
yourself, and owning the impactthat pornography has had on you
and, through you, onto others.
You'll hear about theabusiveness of pornography, what
(01:03):
it means to be a good, safe man, and why Andrew believes in men
, and so do I.
Andrew is someone I trust andlook up to.
I really think you're going toget a lot out of this.
I encourage you to listen withan open heart.
Enjoy the episode.
Today we get to be with DrAndrew Bauman, who is the author
(01:24):
of so many books now, but inparticular, today we're talking
about this question Am I anabusive man?
Based on his book how Not to Bean Ass.
Essays on Becoming a Good andSafe man, hey Andrew.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Hey, thanks for having me, man.
Thanks for chatting about thebook.
I feel like it's an importantconversation.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
It is increasingly important for us to talk about
abuse.
We need to deal with this.
Why are you so passionate aboutthis topic?
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Yeah, because for 13 years I used and abused women
through pornography use.
But, as often it happens, ourpornographic mindsets lead into
pornographic styles of relatingand that bleeds over into how we
relate to the world.
And so I began to objectifywomen, began to use women
(02:19):
inappropriately to soothe my ownwounds and try to heal my own
unprocessed trauma, and it ledme into not being a very good
and safe man.
And so, over the years,realizing not all abusers are
created equal, right, and so Istarted working with all these
(02:40):
men in my private practice andthen getting all this feedback
my husband's abusive, myhusband's abusive and I'd meet
with these men and I had thisidea of what an abusive man was
right, okay, he's going to punchher in the face, he's going to
you know like, and realizing, oh, wow, we have such archaic
definitions and then justrealize we have to widen our
definition so much.
(03:02):
And then we have to do it insuch a way, without
self-contempt, without turningon ourself, without beating
ourselves up, and actually beginto tell the truth of wow, my
unprocessed trauma is coming outsideways, through entitlement,
through how I treat women,through how I engage my wife,
(03:23):
through my theologicalunderstandings and my use of
scripture, whatever it is.
It's coming out sideways in allthese ways and that is a form
of abuse.
In my book, how Not to Be an Ass, I talk about the spectrum of
an abuser and it's important tokind of name like, okay, where
am I on the spectrum?
And I would say 90% of men thatI work with fall on one side of
(03:47):
the spectrum and I call thatthe unaware fool.
This is a guy who has not donehis internal work, he has not
looked at his own life, he hadnot done his own story,
integrated into his own body,his own story integrated into
his own body.
And he abuses, not because he'sa bad guy, but because he
(04:15):
doesn't even know what else todo.
It almost comes out of him.
It's in the sludge that we areliving in, which is in a
patriarchal culture thatnormalizes sexism and abuse.
And we have developed theseways of being and yet we don't
even realize how it's impactinghow we treat women, how we
engage, and so those men are onone side of the spectrum and
that's so common.
(04:35):
That's so many men that comeinto therapy, that want to work
on it.
Their wives are complaining andonce they kind of realize, oh, I
can actually heal quickly, Ican actually start lifting
emotional weights and I canbegin to like understand this
because I'm not just somearchaic, you know, caveman, I'm
actually incredibly capable ofemotional intimacy, but we've
(04:58):
been socialized into not right.
And so in our retreats, youknow, we'll stare at each other
six inches from apart most ofthe whole retreat and I'm our
retreats, you know, we'll stareat each other six inches from
apart most of the whole retreatand I'm like, okay, when have
you last stared into a man'seyes?
Never.
Or what is socially acceptablethrough fighting right, ufc or
boxing?
We it's.
It's about domination of theother versus actually knowing
(05:21):
each other.
Letting me both receivingintimacy and also learning to
engage intimacy through deepconnection, and it's like this
is.
We have to retrain, we have tounlearn these toxic ways of
being and relearn healthy waysof engaging so we can become
healthier men.
So on the other side of thespectrum, this is much rarer.
(05:41):
This is probably less than 10%of the guys that I see, and I
call this side the narcissisticcoward, and this is a much
darker way of relating.
There was just a few.
I can remember One I thought Iremember putting my keys in
between my hands because Ithought it was going to kill me.
When I walked out of my officeat night in the parking lot
(06:03):
because I've confronted hisnarcissism.
And then I remember this otherguy.
I had to get my family out ofthe house because I thought it
was going to come back and kill,kill me and my family.
Um, there's a few of those thatI have through my practice, and
then many more now that I'vedoing this on a much larger
scale with groups, but there's afew that I'm like wow, this is
(06:25):
a different level.
This is not only intentional.
This is morphed into thispathological darkness where evil
is here.
Evil, really dark things can beused and justified, and this is
where that narcissism happensand that abuse happens, but
that's much more rare.
So there's a spectrum of anabuser.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
So if guys are listening to this, they might
think well, am I an abuser?
No, like I'm thinking aboutthis narcissistic coward.
Yet there is a pattern or maybea style of relating that all of
us probably have at some levelA little bit of abusiveness, if
not more.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Yeah Well, if you're born in this, you know culture.
You know American culture inthe nineties, right, look at,
look at the advertising.
I remember some of the ads thatwould go up like the
objectification of women sellsproducts right, it's normalized.
Right, Growing up 12 years oldand beginning to, you know, have
access to internet pornography,it's normalized.
(07:25):
Every man's battle, rememberthis, is everybody's struggles
with it.
It's become so normalized andyet it is incredibly abusive and
we are dishonoring the image ofGod in the face of the woman
and turning ourselves,dishonoring ourselves too,
turning into just some cavemanrather than actually healthy
(07:48):
image bearers of God.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
If someone's listening to this, thinking well
, yeah, I struggle withpornography and I occasionally
masturbate or fantasize.
Does that really make me anabusive man?
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Yes, and you can own that without crumbling, you can
own that without going intodespair.
We can tell the truth because Itruly believe God is truth and
so the more we tell the truth,the more we experience God.
So, yes, that way of being isabusive.
(08:23):
Because you are objectifying,right.
If you look at the statisticsbetween pornography and domestic
violence, right, it's sonormalized because you are
slowly teaching yourself womenare less than women are here for
me to devour and I can makethem do whatever I want with a
click right.
So you're training.
(08:44):
This is not intentional.
You're not like oh, I want tobe an abusive man.
You're not even thinking aboutthat.
You're thinking of oh, I feelanxious and I want to
self-soothe, and this is how Ican self-soothe.
And we stunt our growth ofdealing with hard emotions by
this way of self-soothing.
But it's harming someone else,it's harming the feminine, and
(09:04):
we have to do our work aroundthe feminine.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Yeah, and we also have a lot of guys who are
sexually attracted to men aswell.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Yeah, it's not any different, right?
It's not any different.
You are objectifying.
You are using men in that wayto soothe an unprocessed wound
and it's eroticized wounds, andthat way to soothe an
unprocessed wound and it'seroticized wounds, and so we got
to go heal those wounds, and sowhether whatever you look at
doesn't actually matter, thecore is the same.
(09:33):
You're running from pain andthen you're sexualizing that.
So maybe it's we're not so muchaddicted to sex as we're
addicted to running away fromour pain.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Yeah, that's so true.
You talk about how our violenceis related to insecurity and
oftentimes these patterns comefrom deeper fears.
Deeper shame, deeper fear.
Can you give an example of that?
Speaker 2 (10:03):
Yeah, so many times our unprocessed shame is
projected outward.
Okay, so I see this often inthe church around the issue of
purity or modesty, right, and soyou'll have a pastor who has
struggled with porn and has alot of shame.
I can't say it, I'll lose myjob.
(10:24):
I got to feed my kids, I don'tknow any other career.
I've only say it, I'll lose myjob.
I got to feed my kids, I've gotI don't know.
I don't know any other career,I've only done this.
I've only been a missionaryLike I don't know what else to
do.
And we push them towardsauthenticity, we push them
towards honesty.
But what happens if they don'tdo that?
Then it becomes a projectionoutward.
So my unprocessed shame ofdealing with my sexuality,
(10:45):
dealing with my deception, thenwill come out in a various
amount different forms.
So I could modesty and tellthese women what to wear.
Look, I am like it's all aprojection.
So many popular books that areout are literally unprocessed
(11:17):
projections that are then takenand made as gospel norms and
then it gets into our theologyoh, this is what God is, when
really it's like no, this issome dude who never did his work
, who never healed his woundsand then pathologized it through
writing and said this is thenorm, this is every man's battle
, this is what we're supposed todo, this is how we're supposed
(11:39):
to engage the feminine, and it'scompletely wrong and we've got
to take it back it's completelywrong and we've got to take it
back.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
So that's a picture of what's wrong.
Let's get into what's supposedto happen.
What makes a good and safe man?
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Yeah.
So there's six things that Ilike to say about what makes a
good and safe man.
Number one he's self-aware.
He knows his story, he knowshis wounds and he has humbly
owned how those impact hisrelationships, right.
So that's number one he'sself-aware.
Number two he's aware of safety.
Right, he knows when he is safeand he knows when he's
(12:18):
triggered.
He knows when he's off-centered, when he's allowing his wounded
little boy to lead him.
So he goes hey, timeout.
I'm not well right now.
I need to take a break.
I need to go for a walk, I needto go shoot hoops, I need to go
sing a song, I need to go writesome poetry, I need to go
journal, I need to go pray Idon't care what it is but he
(12:39):
knows his inner world and heknows when he's not living, when
he's either living out of hiswounded child or what I call an
adaptive adolescent, and he'snot living into his safe, wise
self.
So he stops and getsre-centered.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
I had to do that yesterday, man, I had so much
anger and I went down into thebasement, found a beanbag and I
was punching that beanbagbecause I know that that needs a
place to go.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
We need to find ways to express our emotions without
taking them out on other people.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Exactly, and so that's a way to process clean
anger right, without turninginto aggression, without
actually dehumanizing your wifeor your kids or whatever.
We need to put that somewherein a healthy way that does not
harm ourself or others.
Yeah Right.
So number three what's a goodand safe man?
He knows the difference betweenanger and aggression, he has
(13:34):
learned how to fight clean,right, and this is something I'm
still working on all the timeof like I want to fight in a
healthier way, a better way.
I did it yesterday too.
I'm like I had to apologize tomy wife hey, babe, like I did
not fight clean, I made a snideremark.
And that's what I do.
I make this snide.
Well, that's coming from ayoung place in me that feels
(13:56):
scared.
So what did I learn in myfamily of origin?
Assholes to each other to tryto gain the upper hand, whoever
could dehumanize the other.
So we all became very good atarticulating my siblings and I,
you don't want to fight with us,you don't want to verbally spar
(14:16):
.
And yet that's my shadow,that's my dark side, because
that helped me guard my littlewounded boy and get out of there
alive.
So in a sense, I can bless thatpart of me and I have to be
very aware of how that plays outin my marriage, because I will
harm my wife.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
So can you give an example of how to fight fair?
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Yeah.
So how to clean fight?
There's all sorts of things.
Let me break it down for you ina better way.
Number one is you try a softstartup, right?
So it's Dr Gottman, based on DrGottman's 40 years of research,
a soft startup.
Hey, babe, are you in a goodplace to hear a complaint?
No, actually I'm dealing withthe kids, I'm doing this, I'm
(14:57):
doing this, are you you know?
Okay, how about tonight afterdinner, after the kids are down?
Yeah, let's do it then, okay.
So when you said this, I feltthis and everybody's nervous
systems can be settled, versusjust kind of we're going through
life where we're balancing allthis crazy stuff and then you
just drop a bomb and they'redefensive and reactive, or
you're defensive and reactive.
So a soft startup is a greatway.
(15:20):
Number two is staying connectedto your body.
We got to stay connected to ourbody.
Our body's our compass.
I believe God lives in our body.
Right, instead of you know youare this, you are a.
You know I feel.
Right, I got to.
I feel in my body, I feel angry.
You know, feelings are normallyone word, right Versus I feel
(15:41):
you're a jerk.
That's not a feeling, that'sjust a passive, aggressive,
slash, aggressive comment, right.
We have to be aware, like, whatyou're thinking is very
different than what you'refeeling.
So remain connected to yourbody.
Number three avoid extremelanguage.
You always well, you never dothis.
Everyone else does it, right.
(16:02):
No one does it right.
Using extreme language isalmost always dishonest and
manipulative, right.
No one does it right.
Using extreme language isalmost always dishonest and
manipulative, right, becauseextremes are rarely true, right.
So I know you have done this inthe past and it is very hurtful
, right, like that can be waybetter than you always, or you
never.
Number four stay curious, right,when we lack curiosity towards
(16:25):
the other person.
So what we do, my wife and Ioften we're really in a deep
place is we'll get six inchesfrom each other's face and we'll
fight eye to eye, face to face,and it sucks, but it helps us
keep each other's humanity andstay curious, rather than some
of our darker fights are whenwe're not eye to eye and we're
(16:47):
just in passing, because we loseeach other's humanity.
We lose each other's, you know,but staying eye to eye keeps us
grounded, keeps us connected toour own bodies and to their
body.
Right, and then we alreadytalked about this.
Number five knowing thedifference between anger and
aggression.
That's how you can fight clean.
So those are just some of thetips that I address in the book.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
These practices are so valuable.
I encourage you guys to chooseone and try it out.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Definitely A few other steps of becoming a good
and safe man.
We've got to be aware of theother.
Right, this man can see theother and can be emotionally
present while remaining kind inthe midst of conflict.
So if you do that inner workright, if you become self-aware,
being a good and safe man, youcan be aware of the other.
(17:34):
Oh, my partner, you know she'sin her inner child, she's in her
wounded child.
She's not well right now.
Let's take a break.
Let's come back to this.
I can be kind to you because Ihave learned to be kind to
myself.
Which is number five of a goodand safe man is you've embraced
(17:55):
kindness to self and to other,and so when you can give
yourself kindness, you can beginto be kind to your partner,
who's also in the journey,hopefully.
And finally, the final thing ofa good and safe man is he's
secure, he is consistent, he isnot easily threatened.
(18:18):
He knows who he is and he knowswhy he is, and so that's an
important distinction.
He knows who he is and he knowswhy he is, and so that's an
important distinction.
He knows who he is and he knowswhy he is.
He's rooted in his purposeCause, when you've done the
story work.
Out of that comes depth ofpurpose.
I don't I hate.
(18:41):
I hate that I have to face myshame every day.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
And yet that is where my integrity is.
I have to face what I've done20 something years ago, you know
, like engaging women.
And yet I lead from that placenow and I know who I am, I know
why I am.
I have purpose because I facemy fear and face my shame and
that creates deep safety andgoodness and integrity in me
that people can trust.
And when you say being securein who I am, that's also tied
into humility.
What's the difference betweenbeing humble and being weak?
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Well, yeah, I mean, genuine humility is such
strength.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
I think for a lot of us it feels like weakness,
though it feels like man.
I'm such a sinner, I just keepmessing up all the time.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Right, well, you're also describing like we've
confused humility withself-hatred, right?
It's just like, oh, I'm sohumble and I just beat the crap
out of myself with self-contempt, oh, I'm such a piece of crap.
And then we get awarded oh wow,you're so spiritual.
Oh, he must become greater, Imust become less, and we self
annihilate and we actually getrewarded Like that's humility.
(19:53):
I think that's an incredibleform of narcissism.
Um, self-contempt, it's not thegrandiose type, but it's the,
it's the subtle type thatliterally makes it all about me,
cause I'm such a piece of crap,I'm more crappy than you are.
There's such this weirdnarcissism that's
self-deprecating, that actuallystill isolates you, that makes
(20:17):
you distant from your partner,not connected to your partner,
and it's a form of manipulation.
It has nothing to do withhumility.
Genuine humility.
Holds my glory and my goodnessside by side with my depravity.
So I can never become tooarrogant because I know my sin,
I know my darkness, and I cannever become too
(20:37):
self-deprecating because I knowmy goodness.
And those hold, those are heldside by side, and that, to me,
is healthy humility that we cantrust.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Man that is so good.
I feel like in our recoverygroups a lot of times we're
either hiding or we're justfueling that self-contempt and
wallowing in shame.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Yes, very common.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
One of my favorite things about how you approach
this topic of abusive patternsis saying I believe in men, I
want more for men.
Why do you believe in men, evenwhile seeing the darkness
within us?
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Because I believe in myself, because if I hadn't
taken this journey, I think backon my story.
I've just my story is so rough.
I was an orphan, I had noguidance.
I'm literally in a psychiatricward 20 some years ago, you know
, until a therapist kind of cameinto my life and began to
(21:44):
father me and take me in andlike realizing, oh, I'm so
capable, but I was never taughtit was.
You know, we were church 10times a week and behaviorisms
and but not actual souldevelopment or character
development.
You know, I developed acharisma as a pastor and people
were drawn to me, but I didn'tdevelop character.
(22:08):
I had a hidden life with, withdeceptive sexuality and shame,
and so it was like sodisconnected from actually who I
am, whereas now it's like, no,I'm the same guy everywhere and
it's so much easier to live thatway because I can just be
authentic.
And now sometimes I can beauthentically a dick, but I'm
authentic.
There's a refreshingness tothat that I'm the same guy
(22:30):
everywhere and it's like that'spart of the liberation.
This is much better.
And many men, their bodies,they're going to die of a heart
attack because they'recontinuing to live this way.
And I see it all the time inmen that comes through our
program, like your body isscreaming at you to live
differently.
You need a different way ofbeing, and authenticity to me is
(22:52):
spiritual.
It's God's invitation.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
It's so much better and at the same time it's scary.
Yeah, like man authenticity,especially listening to what my
body's trying to tell me isrisky.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
Yeah, and I would say it's actually far less risky at
the end of the day versus theother way of living, Because the
other way of living nearly Ialmost took my life, led me to
near suicide.
So though it feels risky, it'sactually quite safe.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Yeah, and it's certainly safer for the people
in our lives who are affected byour abusive tendencies.
Definitely, andrew.
What is your favorite thingabout this work?
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Done with another workshop last weekend, and I
just think it's the men that aregetting it, that are actually
changing their lives, and I canlike, oh, like.
That to me is the best rewardto say, okay, we've got some
more guys on our team.
I used to be on the other teamas an abuser and now I'm an
(24:03):
advocate and we obviously Ican't do this alone.
We need more men.
And yet it's completelydifferent than what we've been
taught masculinity is.
And yet when I look at the lifeof Jesus and I look at how he
engaged women oh yes, Sign me upfor that.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Yes, and we're going to get to that in next week's
interview on safe church.
Yes For now, for anybody whowants to become a good and safe
man.
Could you say a little bit moreabout the opportunities to work
with you?
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.
We've got all sorts ofopportunities as far as
intensives and workshops.
What we like to say is it'skind of throwing you into the
deep end, so it's going to themajor leagues and diving in deep
as far as your body, as far asyour story.
We have a very potent four-daymen's workshop.
Our Level 1 workshopincorporates story work and body
(25:04):
work in a very full way andthat's kind of our premier
program.
We offer that every month.
I've got two of them coming upin May and then the other months
they're in North Carolina.
We have Level 2 programs, whichis basically men and women
together, women who've beenabused and men who've abused,
and all weekend they're staringin each other's eyes and
(25:27):
engaging their deepest fears anddeepest shames of what they've
done with the other gender andfacing that.
We also have another level twogroup for men, a level two
retreat coming up in a few weeksin Yosemite, and so we've got
all sorts of groups going on allthe time all over the country,
and I've got folks from all overthe world coming and it's just
(25:48):
a powerful, potent thing and I'mso honored to be a part of it.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
I continue to hear great things from husband
material, men who've attendedand I got to visit one time and
it is truly remarkable.
So I would encourage you guysto go to christianccorg and
check out more of Andrew'smaterial.
Thank you, thanks so much forbeing with us and diving into
these incredibly vulnerable,sensitive topics.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
Awesome.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
You're welcome, guys.
Come back next week for asecond interview with Andrew,
where we are going into thestate of the church today, why
women don't feel safe and whatwe can do as men to help protect
them.
Always remember you are God'sbeloved son.
In you he is well-pleased.
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Hey man, thanks for listeningto my interview with Dr Andrew
(00:22):
Bauman about abuse.
I just want to acknowledge howvulnerable and brave it is for
you to even engage with thistopic.
It's tough, it's reallychallenging and it's so
important and it's so important.
(00:43):
Andrew is going to guide you inhow to acknowledge some
difficult truths while also notbeating yourself up or shaming
yourself, and owning the impactthat pornography has had on you
and, through you, onto others.
You'll hear about theabusiveness of pornography, what
(01:03):
it means to be a good, safe man, and why Andrew believes in men
, and so do I.
Andrew is someone I trust andlook up to.
I really think you're going toget a lot out of this.
I encourage you to listen withan open heart.
Enjoy the episode.
Today we get to be with DrAndrew Bauman, who is the author
(01:24):
of so many books now, but inparticular, today we're talking
about this question Am I anabusive man?
Based on his book how Not to Bean Ass.
Essays on Becoming a Good andSafe man, hey Andrew.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
Hey, thanks for having me, man.
Thanks for chatting about thebook.
I feel like it's an importantconversation.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
It is increasingly important for us to talk about
abuse.
We need to deal with this.
Why are you so passionate aboutthis topic?
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Yeah, because for 13 years I used and abused women
through pornography use.
But, as often it happens, ourpornographic mindsets lead into
pornographic styles of relatingand that bleeds over into how we
relate to the world.
And so I began to objectifywomen, began to use women
(02:19):
inappropriately to soothe my ownwounds and try to heal my own
unprocessed trauma, and it ledme into not being a very good
and safe man.
And so, over the years,realizing not all abusers are
created equal, right, and so Istarted working with all these
(02:40):
men in my private practice andthen getting all this feedback
my husband's abusive, myhusband's abusive and I'd meet
with these men and I had thisidea of what an abusive man was
right, okay, he's going to punchher in the face, he's going to
you know like, and realizing, oh, wow, we have such archaic
definitions and then justrealize we have to widen our
definition so much.
(03:02):
And then we have to do it insuch a way, without
self-contempt, without turningon ourself, without beating
ourselves up, and actually beginto tell the truth of wow, my
unprocessed trauma is coming outsideways, through entitlement,
through how I treat women,through how I engage my wife,
(03:23):
through my theologicalunderstandings and my use of
scripture, whatever it is.
It's coming out sideways in allthese ways and that is a form
of abuse.
In my book, how Not to Be an Ass, I talk about the spectrum of
an abuser and it's important tokind of name like, okay, where
am I on the spectrum?
And I would say 90% of men thatI work with fall on one side of
(03:47):
the spectrum and I call thatthe unaware fool.
This is a guy who has not donehis internal work, he has not
looked at his own life, he hadnot done his own story,
integrated into his own body,his own story integrated into
his own body.
And he abuses, not because he'sa bad guy, but because he
(04:15):
doesn't even know what else todo.
It almost comes out of him.
It's in the sludge that we areliving in, which is in a
patriarchal culture thatnormalizes sexism and abuse.
And we have developed theseways of being and yet we don't
even realize how it's impactinghow we treat women, how we
engage, and so those men are onone side of the spectrum and
that's so common.
(04:35):
That's so many men that comeinto therapy, that want to work
on it.
Their wives are complaining andonce they kind of realize, oh, I
can actually heal quickly, Ican actually start lifting
emotional weights and I canbegin to like understand this
because I'm not just somearchaic, you know, caveman, I'm
actually incredibly capable ofemotional intimacy, but we've
(04:58):
been socialized into not right.
And so in our retreats, youknow, we'll stare at each other
six inches from apart most ofthe whole retreat and I'm our
retreats, you know, we'll stareat each other six inches from
apart most of the whole retreatand I'm like, okay, when have
you last stared into a man'seyes?
Never.
Or what is socially acceptablethrough fighting right, ufc or
boxing?
We it's.
It's about domination of theother versus actually knowing
(05:21):
each other.
Letting me both receivingintimacy and also learning to
engage intimacy through deepconnection, and it's like this
is.
We have to retrain, we have tounlearn these toxic ways of
being and relearn healthy waysof engaging so we can become
healthier men.
So on the other side of thespectrum, this is much rarer.
(05:41):
This is probably less than 10%of the guys that I see, and I
call this side the narcissisticcoward, and this is a much
darker way of relating.
There was just a few.
I can remember One I thought Iremember putting my keys in
between my hands because Ithought it was going to kill me.
When I walked out of my officeat night in the parking lot
(06:03):
because I've confronted hisnarcissism.
And then I remember this otherguy.
I had to get my family out ofthe house because I thought it
was going to come back and kill,kill me and my family.
Um, there's a few of those thatI have through my practice, and
then many more now that I'vedoing this on a much larger
scale with groups, but there's afew that I'm like wow, this is
(06:25):
a different level.
This is not only intentional.
This is morphed into thispathological darkness where evil
is here.
Evil, really dark things can beused and justified, and this is
where that narcissism happensand that abuse happens, but
that's much more rare.
So there's a spectrum of anabuser.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
So if guys are listening to this, they might
think well, am I an abuser?
No, like I'm thinking aboutthis narcissistic coward.
Yet there is a pattern or maybea style of relating that all of
us probably have at some levelA little bit of abusiveness, if
not more.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Yeah Well, if you're born in this, you know culture.
You know American culture inthe nineties, right, look at,
look at the advertising.
I remember some of the ads thatwould go up like the
objectification of women sellsproducts right, it's normalized.
Right, Growing up 12 years oldand beginning to, you know, have
access to internet pornography,it's normalized.
(07:25):
Every man's battle, rememberthis, is everybody's struggles
with it.
It's become so normalized andyet it is incredibly abusive and
we are dishonoring the image ofGod in the face of the woman
and turning ourselves,dishonoring ourselves too,
turning into just some cavemanrather than actually healthy
(07:48):
image bearers of God.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
If someone's listening to this, thinking well
, yeah, I struggle withpornography and I occasionally
masturbate or fantasize.
Does that really make me anabusive man?
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Yes, and you can own that without crumbling, you can
own that without going intodespair.
We can tell the truth because Itruly believe God is truth and
so the more we tell the truth,the more we experience God.
So, yes, that way of being isabusive.
(08:23):
Because you are objectifying,right.
If you look at the statisticsbetween pornography and domestic
violence, right, it's sonormalized because you are
slowly teaching yourself womenare less than women are here for
me to devour and I can makethem do whatever I want with a
click right.
So you're training.
(08:44):
This is not intentional.
You're not like oh, I want tobe an abusive man.
You're not even thinking aboutthat.
You're thinking of oh, I feelanxious and I want to
self-soothe, and this is how Ican self-soothe.
And we stunt our growth ofdealing with hard emotions by
this way of self-soothing.
But it's harming someone else,it's harming the feminine, and
(09:04):
we have to do our work aroundthe feminine.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Yeah, and we also have a lot of guys who are
sexually attracted to men aswell.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Yeah, it's not any different, right?
It's not any different.
You are objectifying.
You are using men in that wayto soothe an unprocessed wound
and it's eroticized wounds, andthat way to soothe an
unprocessed wound and it'seroticized wounds, and so we got
to go heal those wounds, and sowhether whatever you look at
doesn't actually matter, thecore is the same.
(09:33):
You're running from pain andthen you're sexualizing that.
So maybe it's we're not so muchaddicted to sex as we're
addicted to running away fromour pain.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Yeah, that's so true.
You talk about how our violenceis related to insecurity and
oftentimes these patterns comefrom deeper fears.
Deeper shame, deeper fear.
Can you give an example of that?
Speaker 2 (10:03):
Yeah, so many times our unprocessed shame is
projected outward.
Okay, so I see this often inthe church around the issue of
purity or modesty, right, and soyou'll have a pastor who has
struggled with porn and has alot of shame.
I can't say it, I'll lose myjob.
(10:24):
I got to feed my kids, I don'tknow any other career.
I've only say it, I'll lose myjob.
I got to feed my kids, I've gotI don't know.
I don't know any other career,I've only done this.
I've only been a missionaryLike I don't know what else to
do.
And we push them towardsauthenticity, we push them
towards honesty.
But what happens if they don'tdo that?
Then it becomes a projectionoutward.
So my unprocessed shame ofdealing with my sexuality,
(10:45):
dealing with my deception, thenwill come out in a various
amount different forms.
So I could modesty and tellthese women what to wear.
Look, I am like it's all aprojection.
So many popular books that areout are literally unprocessed
(11:17):
projections that are then takenand made as gospel norms and
then it gets into our theologyoh, this is what God is, when
really it's like no, this issome dude who never did his work
, who never healed his woundsand then pathologized it through
writing and said this is thenorm, this is every man's battle
, this is what we're supposed todo, this is how we're supposed
(11:39):
to engage the feminine, and it'scompletely wrong and we've got
to take it back it's completelywrong and we've got to take it
back.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
So that's a picture of what's wrong.
Let's get into what's supposedto happen.
What makes a good and safe man?
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Yeah.
So there's six things that Ilike to say about what makes a
good and safe man.
Number one he's self-aware.
He knows his story, he knowshis wounds and he has humbly
owned how those impact hisrelationships, right.
So that's number one he'sself-aware.
Number two he's aware of safety.
Right, he knows when he is safeand he knows when he's
(12:18):
triggered.
He knows when he's off-centered, when he's allowing his wounded
little boy to lead him.
So he goes hey, timeout.
I'm not well right now.
I need to take a break.
I need to go for a walk, I needto go shoot hoops, I need to go
sing a song, I need to go writesome poetry, I need to go
journal, I need to go pray Idon't care what it is but he
(12:39):
knows his inner world and heknows when he's not living, when
he's either living out of hiswounded child or what I call an
adaptive adolescent, and he'snot living into his safe, wise
self.
So he stops and getsre-centered.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
I had to do that yesterday, man, I had so much
anger and I went down into thebasement, found a beanbag and I
was punching that beanbagbecause I know that that needs a
place to go.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
We need to find ways to express our emotions without
taking them out on other people.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Exactly, and so that's a way to process clean
anger right, without turninginto aggression, without
actually dehumanizing your wifeor your kids or whatever.
We need to put that somewherein a healthy way that does not
harm ourself or others.
Yeah Right.
So number three what's a goodand safe man?
He knows the difference betweenanger and aggression, he has
(13:34):
learned how to fight clean,right, and this is something I'm
still working on all the timeof like I want to fight in a
healthier way, a better way.
I did it yesterday too.
I'm like I had to apologize tomy wife hey, babe, like I did
not fight clean, I made a snideremark.
And that's what I do.
I make this snide.
Well, that's coming from ayoung place in me that feels
(13:56):
scared.
So what did I learn in myfamily of origin?
Assholes to each other to tryto gain the upper hand, whoever
could dehumanize the other.
So we all became very good atarticulating my siblings and I,
you don't want to fight with us,you don't want to verbally spar
(14:16):
.
And yet that's my shadow,that's my dark side, because
that helped me guard my littlewounded boy and get out of there
alive.
So in a sense, I can bless thatpart of me and I have to be
very aware of how that plays outin my marriage, because I will
harm my wife.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
So can you give an example of how to fight fair?
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Yeah.
So how to clean fight?
There's all sorts of things.
Let me break it down for you ina better way.
Number one is you try a softstartup, right?
So it's Dr Gottman, based on DrGottman's 40 years of research,
a soft startup.
Hey, babe, are you in a goodplace to hear a complaint?
No, actually I'm dealing withthe kids, I'm doing this, I'm
(14:57):
doing this, are you you know?
Okay, how about tonight afterdinner, after the kids are down?
Yeah, let's do it then, okay.
So when you said this, I feltthis and everybody's nervous
systems can be settled, versusjust kind of we're going through
life where we're balancing allthis crazy stuff and then you
just drop a bomb and they'redefensive and reactive, or
you're defensive and reactive.
So a soft startup is a greatway.
(15:20):
Number two is staying connectedto your body.
We got to stay connected to ourbody.
Our body's our compass.
I believe God lives in our body.
Right, instead of you know youare this, you are a.
You know I feel.
Right, I got to.
I feel in my body, I feel angry.
You know, feelings are normallyone word, right Versus I feel
(15:41):
you're a jerk.
That's not a feeling, that'sjust a passive, aggressive,
slash, aggressive comment, right.
We have to be aware, like, whatyou're thinking is very
different than what you'refeeling.
So remain connected to yourbody.
Number three avoid extremelanguage.
You always well, you never dothis.
Everyone else does it, right.
(16:02):
No one does it right.
Using extreme language isalmost always dishonest and
manipulative, right.
No one does it right.
Using extreme language isalmost always dishonest and
manipulative, right, becauseextremes are rarely true, right.
So I know you have done this inthe past and it is very hurtful
, right, like that can be waybetter than you always, or you
never.
Number four stay curious, right,when we lack curiosity towards
(16:25):
the other person.
So what we do, my wife and Ioften we're really in a deep
place is we'll get six inchesfrom each other's face and we'll
fight eye to eye, face to face,and it sucks, but it helps us
keep each other's humanity andstay curious, rather than some
of our darker fights are whenwe're not eye to eye and we're
(16:47):
just in passing, because we loseeach other's humanity.
We lose each other's, you know,but staying eye to eye keeps us
grounded, keeps us connected toour own bodies and to their
body.
Right, and then we alreadytalked about this.
Number five knowing thedifference between anger and
aggression.
That's how you can fight clean.
So those are just some of thetips that I address in the book.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
These practices are so valuable.
I encourage you guys to chooseone and try it out.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Definitely A few other steps of becoming a good
and safe man.
We've got to be aware of theother.
Right, this man can see theother and can be emotionally
present while remaining kind inthe midst of conflict.
So if you do that inner workright, if you become self-aware,
being a good and safe man, youcan be aware of the other.
(17:34):
Oh, my partner, you know she'sin her inner child, she's in her
wounded child.
She's not well right now.
Let's take a break.
Let's come back to this.
I can be kind to you because Ihave learned to be kind to
myself.
Which is number five of a goodand safe man is you've embraced
(17:55):
kindness to self and to other,and so when you can give
yourself kindness, you can beginto be kind to your partner,
who's also in the journey,hopefully.
And finally, the final thing ofa good and safe man is he's
secure, he is consistent, he isnot easily threatened.
(18:18):
He knows who he is and he knowswhy he is, and so that's an
important distinction.
He knows who he is and he knowswhy he is, and so that's an
important distinction.
He knows who he is and he knowswhy he is.
He's rooted in his purposeCause, when you've done the
story work.
Out of that comes depth ofpurpose.
I don't I hate.
(18:41):
I hate that I have to face myshame every day.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
And yet that is where my integrity is.
I have to face what I've done20 something years ago, you know
, like engaging women.
And yet I lead from that placenow and I know who I am, I know
why I am.
I have purpose because I facemy fear and face my shame and
that creates deep safety andgoodness and integrity in me
that people can trust.
And when you say being securein who I am, that's also tied
into humility.
What's the difference betweenbeing humble and being weak?
Speaker 2 (19:19):
Well, yeah, I mean, genuine humility is such
strength.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
I think for a lot of us it feels like weakness,
though it feels like man.
I'm such a sinner, I just keepmessing up all the time.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Right, well, you're also describing like we've
confused humility withself-hatred, right?
It's just like, oh, I'm sohumble and I just beat the crap
out of myself with self-contempt, oh, I'm such a piece of crap.
And then we get awarded oh wow,you're so spiritual.
Oh, he must become greater, Imust become less, and we self
annihilate and we actually getrewarded Like that's humility.
(19:53):
I think that's an incredibleform of narcissism.
Um, self-contempt, it's not thegrandiose type, but it's the,
it's the subtle type thatliterally makes it all about me,
cause I'm such a piece of crap,I'm more crappy than you are.
There's such this weirdnarcissism that's
self-deprecating, that actuallystill isolates you, that makes
(20:17):
you distant from your partner,not connected to your partner,
and it's a form of manipulation.
It has nothing to do withhumility.
Genuine humility.
Holds my glory and my goodnessside by side with my depravity.
So I can never become tooarrogant because I know my sin,
I know my darkness, and I cannever become too
(20:37):
self-deprecating because I knowmy goodness.
And those hold, those are heldside by side, and that, to me,
is healthy humility that we cantrust.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Man that is so good.
I feel like in our recoverygroups a lot of times we're
either hiding or we're justfueling that self-contempt and
wallowing in shame.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Yes, very common.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
One of my favorite things about how you approach
this topic of abusive patternsis saying I believe in men, I
want more for men.
Why do you believe in men, evenwhile seeing the darkness
within us?
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Because I believe in myself, because if I hadn't
taken this journey, I think backon my story.
I've just my story is so rough.
I was an orphan, I had noguidance.
I'm literally in a psychiatricward 20 some years ago, you know
, until a therapist kind of cameinto my life and began to
(21:44):
father me and take me in andlike realizing, oh, I'm so
capable, but I was never taughtit was.
You know, we were church 10times a week and behaviorisms
and but not actual souldevelopment or character
development.
You know, I developed acharisma as a pastor and people
were drawn to me, but I didn'tdevelop character.
(22:08):
I had a hidden life with, withdeceptive sexuality and shame,
and so it was like sodisconnected from actually who I
am, whereas now it's like, no,I'm the same guy everywhere and
it's so much easier to live thatway because I can just be
authentic.
And now sometimes I can beauthentically a dick, but I'm
authentic.
There's a refreshingness tothat that I'm the same guy
(22:30):
everywhere and it's like that'spart of the liberation.
This is much better.
And many men, their bodies,they're going to die of a heart
attack because they'recontinuing to live this way.
And I see it all the time inmen that comes through our
program, like your body isscreaming at you to live
differently.
You need a different way ofbeing, and authenticity to me is
(22:52):
spiritual.
It's God's invitation.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
It's so much better and at the same time it's scary.
Yeah, like man authenticity,especially listening to what my
body's trying to tell me isrisky.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
Yeah, and I would say it's actually far less risky at
the end of the day versus theother way of living, Because the
other way of living nearly Ialmost took my life, led me to
near suicide.
So though it feels risky, it'sactually quite safe.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Yeah, and it's certainly safer for the people
in our lives who are affected byour abusive tendencies.
Definitely, andrew.
What is your favorite thingabout this work?
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Done with another workshop last weekend, and I
just think it's the men that aregetting it, that are actually
changing their lives, and I canlike, oh, like.
That to me is the best rewardto say, okay, we've got some
more guys on our team.
I used to be on the other teamas an abuser and now I'm an
(24:03):
advocate and we obviously Ican't do this alone.
We need more men.
And yet it's completelydifferent than what we've been
taught masculinity is.
And yet when I look at the lifeof Jesus and I look at how he
engaged women oh yes, Sign me upfor that.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Yes, and we're going to get to that in next week's
interview on safe church.
Yes For now, for anybody whowants to become a good and safe
man.
Could you say a little bit moreabout the opportunities to work
with you?
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.
We've got all sorts ofopportunities as far as
intensives and workshops.
What we like to say is it'skind of throwing you into the
deep end, so it's going to themajor leagues and diving in deep
as far as your body, as far asyour story.
We have a very potent four-daymen's workshop.
Our Level 1 workshopincorporates story work and body
(25:04):
work in a very full way andthat's kind of our premier
program.
We offer that every month.
I've got two of them coming upin May and then the other months
they're in North Carolina.
We have Level 2 programs, whichis basically men and women
together, women who've beenabused and men who've abused,
and all weekend they're staringin each other's eyes and
(25:27):
engaging their deepest fears anddeepest shames of what they've
done with the other gender andfacing that.
We also have another level twogroup for men, a level two
retreat coming up in a few weeksin Yosemite, and so we've got
all sorts of groups going on allthe time all over the country,
and I've got folks from all overthe world coming and it's just
(25:48):
a powerful, potent thing and I'mso honored to be a part of it.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
I continue to hear great things from husband
material, men who've attendedand I got to visit one time and
it is truly remarkable.
So I would encourage you guysto go to christianccorg and
check out more of Andrew'smaterial.
Thank you, thanks so much forbeing with us and diving into
these incredibly vulnerable,sensitive topics.
Speaker 2 (26:14):
Awesome.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
You're welcome, guys.
Come back next week for asecond interview with Andrew,
where we are going into thestate of the church today, why
women don't feel safe and whatwe can do as men to help protect
them.
Always remember you are God'sbeloved son.
In you he is well-pleased.
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