March 10, 2025 • 32 mins
What are the building blocks of a healthy relationship? In this episode, Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith reveal the "Intimacy Pyramid" of what is required for trust and intimacy—especially for couples healing from sexual betrayal. Get wisdom from two people who rebuilt their marriage after porn almost destroyed it.
Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith are clinicians, speakers, and authors of the book Building True Intimacy: Creating a Connection that Stands the Test of Time (paid link). They have over 20 years of combined experience in counseling, coaching, and guiding couples toward healing and transformation. Their mission is to help couples navigate the complexities of relational challenges, particularly in the aftermath of sexual addiction and betrayal trauma, fostering deep restoration and growth.
Matthew is a Professional Certified Coach (ICF) with a background in pastoral leadership, while Joanna is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, EMDR practitioner, and Certified Clinical Partner Specialist through APSATS. Both hold Master of Divinity degrees and have served together on multiple church leadership teams. Currently, they co-lead their private practice, The Raabsmith Team, where they specialize in helping couples rebuild connection, trust, and intimacy.
Download the Raabsmiths' free check-in: The Honest Connection.
Get a copy of Building True Intimacy to dive into the Intimacy Pyramid.
Learn more and connect with Matthew and Joanna at raabsmithteam.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Hey man, thank you forlistening to my interview with
(00:22):
Matthew and Joanna Rabsmith.
It's not often that we get tohear a story from a couple who
have been through the fire ofdiscovering Matthew's double
life and his relationship withpornography and the broken trust
all the way to rebuilding theirrelationship stronger than it
was before.
I love to hear these stories ofredemption and when you listen
(00:44):
to them share, you will not onlyhave a sense of hope, but also
really practical help.
Matthew and Joanna have createdthis tool called the Intimacy
Pyramid, which is a frameworkfor how to heal as a couple, not
just as individuals separately,but together, and what that
looks like, even when there hasbeen significant pornography,
(01:08):
sexual addiction, sexualbetrayal.
So in this episode, you willlearn how to build a foundation
for true intimacy and at thevery end, matthew and Joanna
share a check-in for couplesthey created called the Honest
Connection, which I'm reallyexcited about and I think you're
going to love it.
Enjoy the episode I am soexcited to introduce you all to
Matthew and Joanna Rabsmith, theauthors of this book Building
(01:32):
True Intimacy and co-founders ofthe Rabsmith team.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Welcome to the show, so excited to be here.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Yeah, really, really pumped to have this conversation
.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
I was excited to meet you at SILS at the Sexual
Integrity Leadership Summit andwould love for you to start by
telling your stories.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Yeah, we've been doing work professionally now
for close to 10 years different,various ways.
Um, we got into this specificwork dealing with betrayal,
(02:13):
sexual addiction, problematicsexual behavior, recovery for
couples, specifically mainlybecause it was our story.
We, we um knew we wanted towork with couples.
We knew we wanted to have agreat marriage.
Joanna didn't know that, cominginto the marriage, that I was
bringing in a decades longstruggle with pornography,
different types of sexuallyacting out, and that all came to
a head about three years in andreally changed our trajectory
forever.
(02:34):
And thankful for that because Ithink we were finding ourselves
happy in some ways but reallystuck kind of feeling like there
was this, this relationship wecouldn't have.
And so when we started recoverywe were scared.
We were really unsure of whatthe journey looked like.
Nobody really had a greatvision for it.
(02:55):
They were kind of like if youmake it, congrats, you know.
And so we were kind ofdetermined to make it and then,
I think, also determined to helpother couples make it.
I think once we once we feltlike we were out of, determined
to make it and then, I think,also determined to help other
couples make it.
I think once we felt like wewere out of the woods.
We were like how do we makethis easier, how do we make this
more accessible to couples andfor them to have that kind of
(03:15):
sense of hope?
Speaker 2 (03:16):
early on.
Yeah, a lot of our experienceof recovery was that there's a
lot of great resources forMatthew, very few resources for
me and zero resources for us asa couple when we went through
recovery, and so it was abumpier journey than we would
have liked and so, as we got,like Matthew was saying on the
other side and realized, likethis is absolutely possible for
(03:38):
couples to heal and thrive afterbetrayal.
But it'd be really nice thatthere's some sort of roadmap for
them, right, and that thosefirst few weeks when they're in
utter chaos, right, when thatpartner is traumatized and they
don't know if there's any wayout, for someone to be able to
kind of show them the path out,and so that's then what kind of
(04:00):
led us into developing theintimacy pyramid with Dan Drake.
It was kind of we finally saw astructure, kind of a fairly
clear and easy structure tounderstand.
This is how you do it.
This is how you build healthyrelationship and healthy
intimacy post-betrayal.
And what we realized in workingwith couple after couple after
couple, both betrayal andnon-betrayal couples, is that
(04:20):
the building blocks are the samewhether or not you've been
through betrayal, non-betrayalcouples, is that the building
blocks are the same whether ornot you've been through betrayal
.
This is just healthyrelationship and we just didn't
have the roadmap, the tools whenwe first got married to know
how to do that, and so when thathonesty broke down, everything
else crumbled, and so just sucha joy being able to, and an
(04:41):
honor to walk with other couplesthrough that journey, help show
them kind of that roadmap alongthe way.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Yeah, a roadmap for the relationship, because many
of us are familiar with theindividual roadmap.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Exactly yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
But what about the couple's road?
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Yeah, and it's really tricky because you've got two
people in very different placesand very similar places.
Right, you've got somebody whohas spent a lifetime of hiding,
typically, and a lifetime ofreally battling shame and really
low sense of self, and we'reasking that person to step up.
We're saying, hey, thisrelationship needs you in a very
(05:24):
, very particular way.
We've got a spouse who thoughtthey knew their life, thought
they knew their story, who isnow having to re kind of learn
everything about their marriage,their, their you know their
partner, their life, and pick upthose pieces.
And then we're saying, and atthe same time, right, you're
going to be married.
And a lot of these couples,right, they have kids, they have
jobs, they have friendships,they're often in small groups at
(05:48):
churches.
Right, they're active, they'reliving a life, and so we
recognize that, as nice as itwould think to kind of keep
these two people siloed forever,right, and it'll just kind of
work itself out.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
They'll be really good roommates, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
We were having these couples be like but how do we
pay taxes together?
Right, if I don't trust him?
Right?
We?
Speaker 3 (06:11):
had a conversation about where to eat dinner, yeah,
and so that was that was reallythe hope is to say like this
this third thing, thisrelationship, is going to be
something you're taking care offrom day one.
Um, even if you're not doingkind of couples work or couples
counseling right, you might bedoing some really individual
work early on You're stillworking on the relationship,
you're still caring for therelationship the moment there's
(06:33):
discovery, because it's you know, if you're committed to that
restoration process, it startsday one.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Let's talk about this awesome framework, the intimacy
pyramid.
Okay, what is it?
Speaker 2 (06:48):
What is it?
Yes, so it is a visual of apyramid, and if you ever seen
Maslow's hierarchy of needs,that kind of right.
They each build on each otherthose different levels.
We kind of use that samestructure and thinking about the
relational needs right, whatdoes the relationship need to
thrive and be healthy?
And what we realized from rightgoing through betrayal, helping
(07:10):
other couples through it, isthat honesty is that bedrock, is
that foundation of the pyramid,because once that honesty is
shattered, everything else comescrumbling down around the
couple.
And so step one is rebuildinghonesty.
And so for most couples thatincludes what we would call a
full therapeutic disclosure,where the betrayer will share
(07:34):
everything, all the secrets,every single thing that was
hidden, that was kept from theirpartner.
They share because we have to.
Really it's almost like arestart button in honesty.
We can't get honest if we don'tget honest about the past first
, right.
And so we really focus onhonest about the past.
Then we shift into honest aboutthe present Right.
(07:55):
We also tell couples we hope wenever do another full
disclosure again with you guysRight, like one and done.
Now let's maintain thatfoundation of honesty on a daily
basis in the way we live ourlives in the way we are
transparent with one another inthe way we are transparent with
one another and from honesty werebuild the safety of the
relationship, because we can'thave safety without honesty,
(08:15):
right?
Speaker 3 (08:15):
That's what someone who's been betrayed knows.
Like I can't feel safe in arelationship where someone's
choosing to tell me bits ofinformation based on what's
gonna serve them, and so oncewe've established honesty, that
doesn't guarantee safety, thoughthat's the idea.
I think everybody has this idea.
Well, I'm being honest, butthat doesn't necessarily mean
(08:36):
it's safe if I'm honest.
But I'm going back to myaddiction every week and I'm
reengaging those destructivehabits.
Even if I'm being honest aboutit, that's still not a safe
relationship for the otherperson to enter into.
So safety is really about thekind of rebuilding of
trustworthiness in therelationship.
Am I back in the relationshipand am I operating relationally?
It's not about am I perfect,but it is about I've kind of
(08:59):
recommitted, I've revowed, andwhen I'm working with guys I
talk about that kind ofintegrity piece.
It's that the values that Icarry are now matching, more
aligned with my actions, andthat's what's going to rebuild
safety.
And so that safety is whatallows for that next level,
(09:22):
which is trust.
And trust is where the couplegets to start kind of being a
couple again.
Right, more collaborative work,right, more partnership.
They're thinking more about whodo we want to be after this is
all over?
Right, after we're kind of outof the woods, what's that going
to look like?
What's different?
What stays the same, right,what do we carry from the past
that we may be really lovedabout us, but what do we want to
be different about us?
(09:43):
And once they've had thatfoundation of trust, this is
when they truly get to kind ofstep into being a married couple
.
Right, by first beingvulnerable with each other,
really opening up some of themore tender places of their
hearts, right, sharing thingswith each other, bearing each
other's burdens a little bitmore because of that trust
(10:03):
that's been established.
And that's what gives way tothis beautiful intimacy, this
kind of oneness that we see,where they really get to feel
like we are one again.
And it's a different one thanmaybe they experienced before.
It's not just physical intimacy, right, it's intimacy kind of
across the whole, but it's thestructure that's built
(10:24):
underneath it that makes thatintimacy so special.
And that's what we were findingis, all these couples were
getting out of like discoveryand they wanted to go right to
intimacy.
They were like I want this, Iwant to go back right, or I want
it to be great, and we werehaving to explain to them.
We've got to go through thisprocess so that when you get to
this level of connection, thislevel of vulnerability, it has a
(10:46):
foundation, it rests on right,it's still going to move around
a little bit right.
All relationships are fluid.
We're constantly growing andchanging, we're struggling, but
we want this foundation thatwasn't there before, that will
help really protect you as youcontinue to lean into those more
kind of tender spaces.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
And it's not kind of we build the pyramid, then we're
done right, like, okay, checkdid honesty, check great did
safety.
These are things that wecontinue to build on Right.
And so, as you start toexperience intimacy at the top
of the pyramid, it allows for adeeper level of honesty,
self-awareness, vulnerability,right, which means we're going
(11:25):
to have a deeper sense of trustand safety with one another
which Right.
And so it is then kind ofcyclical, right.
We continue feeding into eachof those things our entire
relationship.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
You also talk about some of the skills that we need
to work on.
What are some of the mostimportant ones?
Speaker 3 (11:43):
Yeah, and I think it was really interesting because
when we first designed thepyramid, it really was just
about those levels, right, wewere kind of like big, really,
just big picture.
But then, as we were workingwith couples and individuals, we
were recognizing like it's onething just to tell someone to be
honest, like I I can.
I grew up in church and Iremember people being like you
should, you should, love yourneighbor.
Okay, great, right, you know,don't hate people.
(12:07):
Okay, I'm not trying to.
But guess what?
I come back the next week.
They're like did you love yourneighbor?
I'm like no, I didn't.
Actually this was not a goodlove your neighbor week for me.
I don't know that, I know how,right, I'm not quite sure.
And so when we, when we kind ofwent back to write the book, we
recognize the need to identifythese skills, we call them these
components of honesty.
(12:27):
Right, what is it that makes anhonest person?
And so, for honesty, forinstance, we recognize there has
to be awareness.
If I don't, if I'm not aware ofmyself, my body, my history, it
is really hard for me to behonest.
People are going to ask mequestions that I can't answer
legitimately.
I might want to, but I'm goingto stumble around and they're
(12:49):
going to realize wait, somethingdoesn't add up right with this
person, and so awareness and ifyou've ever seen someone, you
can tell they're clearlydysregulated or not.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Ok, you're like, hey, what's going on?
What's wrong?
Oh, nothing, I'm fine, right,lack of awareness and that's not
going to feel very safe for theother person.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Yeah, and we also recognize a practice of
authenticity, the skill of beingauthentic.
Right Shame creates such thismask that many of us wear.
I learned that the way for meto survive was by hiding and
putting on this front and kindof an unwillingness to be
(13:28):
inauthentic.
And I was a pastor for manyyears and I thought I was being
vulnerable.
But what I was really doing wasI was giving people a piece of
vulnerability so that I couldhide something else.
I wasn't willing to beauthentic and because I wasn't
authentic, I didn't really knowwhat I needed to deal with.
I didn't know what my truestruggles were and it was only
(13:49):
when I became authentic withmyself, with trusted other
people.
Right For me, one of the firstplaces I learned to be authentic
was in a healthy men'scommunity.
I was in a community of men whoare in recovery and that was
the place that I kind of firstlearned it.
That actually helped me to bemore authentic with Joanna.
It was that place that I wasable then to translate it and
say, okay, if I can be authenticthere, maybe I can be more
(14:11):
authentic here and you can get amore real version of me.
I can get a more real versionof me.
I'm going to know what I wantto celebrate and what I want to
work on, what I want to maybeimprove, what I want to be
different.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
And an important part of being able to demonstrate
that on authenticity is beingassertive in relationship.
It's actually it's this veryactive step of being transparent
.
It's not right.
Honesty isn't just like theabsence of lies or deceit.
It's me actively making thechoice to be more and more open,
honest, transparent with mypartner, and so we include that
(14:45):
assertiveness piece there.
It's hugely important.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Let's talk about assertiveness, because a lot of
us have trouble with that.
Either we are avoiding it orwe're becoming aggressive.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Yeah, yes, yeah, yeah , we like to tell people
opinionated does not meanassertive.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Sometimes they'll say healthy assertiveness is what
we mean.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
And I like that aggressive.
I have some people who are likeyeah, I was super assertive,
what did you do?
I walked in there and Idemanded that she finally
respect me.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
And I was like that.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
Yeah, we see assertiveness as working for the
relational good, because I knowone of the things that that we
learned when we were in ourgraduate program was that
healthy people are able to takecare of themselves.
They're not isolated, they'renot, they're not like
independent, but they're.
(15:44):
They are able to care forthemselves.
They're able to.
And that means creatingcommunity for myself, that I can
be vulnerable, right, that Ican be authentic with it, means
seeking out professionalresources where it's helpful and
where it's needed.
That's what, then allows me.
It's that that self-care whichis allows me to care for the
relationship, and not my partnernecessarily, but actually to
(16:06):
care for the relationship, andnot my partner necessarily, but
actually to care for therelationship.
And so assertiveness is thatkind of first act of caring for
the relationship.
I see an opportunity for us towork better or to be more open
with each other, or to take anext step, and I can speak into
that in a loving and invitingway, not demanding right, not
aggressive, but I'm also notsitting back thinking that I
(16:28):
don't have a say.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Yeah, that kind of like you mentioned the avoidance
or we see a lot of timescompliance and people think that
this is such a great thingthey're bringing to the
relationship, like sure we cando whatever you want, right, and
not actually speaking up, beinghonest, and what we see is the
more compliance, the moreresentment is hiding underneath
that compliance and so it reallywill destroy that relationship
(16:52):
very quickly.
And so learning how to speakassertively, openly, taking that
active step, not having yourpartner have to draw information
out of you, right, itdemonstrates kind of that
responsibility and that care,like Matthew's saying, that care
for the relationship and sohealthy assertiveness is always,
always good for the individualsand the relationship, and so if
(17:14):
it's not, then we're going totalk about OK, maybe this is not
the healthiest version what'sgoing on?
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Yeah, I love your story about trying to decide
where to go out to eat, andneither of you were being
assertive.
Speaker 3 (17:28):
And we would.
We would go round and round andI can speak like, especially
after discovery.
This was really difficult forme because in a lot of ways I
felt like my betrayal of Joannainvalidated my voice and that I
really I didn't deserve a voicein our relationship anymore
because of what I had done and Ithought that was the loving
(17:49):
thing to do.
Right, I'm going to step away.
But then I recognized I wasactually doing more of what I
had done in the past.
I was stepping out of therelationship.
Now I was doing that because ofthe kind of trap you were
talking about.
I kind of felt like I knewavoidance or aggression.
Those were the languages that Iwas able to speak, that I was
(18:12):
trained in.
I always thought, well,avoidance is the lesser of the
evils, right, it's, it's better.
But then I recognized, no,avoidance is what I was doing in
my addiction.
Right, that's what porn was.
It was an avoidance of my ownissues.
It was avoidance of relationalissues.
Right, I was.
I was using it to medicate, notdealing with anything in a
healthy way.
And so it is.
And that's why we say it'sreally cyclical, right it's.
This process works in on itself.
(18:33):
I'm a more assertive person.
As I've continued to work onmyself, I'm more capable of
having the kind of conversationsthat share my desires, my
dreams, my hopes, but withoutputting the demands, and that's
usually when you know it's ahealthy assertiveness, when I'm
not demanding of the otherperson right?
(18:53):
I'm seeing an opportunity, I'mnaming it and I'm letting us
decide as a couple.
Is this where we want to moveforward?
Speaker 2 (18:59):
And it can be really helpful if you have that
awareness right.
Again, that's why awareness isin there, so you understand your
own pattern and why you'removing into compliance right or
not being assertive.
Matthew shared his with thiskind of avoidance that maybe
came from shame For me, thatcompliance when it shows up,
it's actually control.
(19:19):
It's me trying to manage hisemotions.
Right, we'll just go along withwhat you want, because then you
will show up happier, you won'tbe as upset, right, we'll just
go along with what you want,because then you will show up
happier, you won't be as upset,right.
And so it was kind of a controltactic for me.
And so understanding okay, thatcomes from a place of feeling
unsafe inside of me and I needto notice that, be aware of that
and instead of complying ortrying to manage, I can name
(19:42):
those things hey, I'm notfeeling super safe right now and
I can tell I'm wanting tomanage you by not being
assertive.
But I know that is not the kindof relationship we've said that
we want, right, and so then Ican, and then I can lean into
that assertiveness.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
And as you talk about feeling unsafe, I'm reminded
that there is no 100% safety inany relationship.
So how do you move toward trustwhen you can't have that 100%
assurance that I'm going to besafe?
Speaker 2 (20:16):
And that's probably one of the scariest things for
partners, right, because aftergoing through betrayal, after
having your entire worldexplodes, it seems crazy to step
back into anything that youcan't have that 100% safety
right.
And so I think it takes so muchcourage, those partners who
choose to step in and work onthat relationship.
(20:39):
That is such a step of courage,especially early on, when
sometimes there's zero safetythat's been rebuilt and then
learning right, coming to gripswith like no, that 100% is not
possible.
It is sometimes reassuring whenwe tell them but 90, 95% is
possible and that's when youwill have a sense of safety,
right, the Gottmans have donesome research that shows us that
(20:59):
you can have a sense of safetyand experience of safety
relationally when thatpercentage is high enough.
You're never going to get to100.
But if you stay at 60%, youwill never feel safe.
And so we've seen some couplesdive into recovery pretty
aggressively early on, take somereally good steps in rebuilding
safety, and then they kind ofmaybe like get tired or burn out
(21:22):
or think, well, it's so muchdifferent than before, this must
be good enough, and they kindof stop.
But then they get reallyfrustrated because months, even
sometimes years, go by andthey're really stuck in that
safety level, going like whyaren't we rebuilding trust, why
aren't we experiencingvulnerability together and so
making sure they understand whatare the components of safety,
(21:43):
how do we rebuild to a feltsense of security?
And that partner is going tofeel that differently in their
body.
Right, it will be a prettypivotal experience and helping
them understand.
You're not going to feel thatin your body at 60%, at 70%, at
80%.
So it's helpful to track thegrowth, even if you're not
(22:05):
feeling it, experiencing it,knowing we're moving in the
right direction.
So in some ways, we're going totrust the process till we get
to that place where that secureattachment is starting to be
felt again.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
And one of the things that we've seen in couples.
That's an opportunity, I think,for and I'm going to speak to
men as betrayers.
We obviously there's differentsides of this, but we
predominantly work with husbandswho've betrayed, wives who've
been betrayed, and I will oftenspeak to the guys.
I think one of the moststraightforward things you can
do for your partner is to takethat 100% expectation off the
table.
I think a lot of people have inmind I've broken trust.
(22:40):
So what I need is I need ahundred percent trust from you
again and I'll feel okay.
And that puts all that pressureon the person who's been hurt
right, who's been betrayed.
That's putting that pressure onthem and you can do so much to
build safety by saying I'mtaking that pressure off of you.
When I accepted that Joannawould never fully trust me again
(23:01):
, it opened up an avenue for usto do so much healing versus
when I was in this place of whenare we going to expunge this
from my record right?
When is this going to be not apart of our story anymore?
And and I was recognizing all Iwas doing was elongating that
process.
I was wanting to get to trustand I was just pushing it
further and further down theroad.
Once I let go of that, once Ilet go of this kind of desire to
(23:27):
want to get my history out ofour story, that's when our
relationship started to growfaster and faster and faster.
Right Trust began to reallyblossom, and so I get it Like I
understand.
I remember that time thinkingwhat do I got to do to be back
to the kind of trust we hadbefore?
It was once I said that trustthat that is gone.
(23:49):
But what we have now, eventhough it's not what it was
before, is actually so muchbetter because it's built on
something.
I remember that Joanna trustedme before, but I knew I was
lying to her.
That was awful because I knewat any point she was going to
write, see a web history, or shewas going to write ask me a
(24:12):
question that I couldn't answerwell enough to keep her off of,
off of the trail, and thatwasn't a trusting relationship.
You know she thought she wastrusting something, but I, even
in my own experience, knew likeshe doesn't trust me because she
doesn't know me, she doesn'tknow what's going on.
And so, even though our trustis different now, I like it
because it's a trust that I know.
(24:33):
She knows me, she knows who Iam, she knows my struggles, she
knows where I am in my processand that's who she's choosing
right on that daily basis.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Yeah Well, tell betrayers your job is to be
trustworthy, not to be trusted.
And there is a big differencein how you will show up
depending on which one you seeas the goal.
If my goal is to be trusted,I'm going to try and manage this
other person, control them.
I'm going to perform and tryand look really good so I earn
(25:04):
their trust back Right and andpartners can feel that.
And then recovery.
That recovery doesn't feel safeand authentic.
If my job is to be trustworthy,the focus is all of a sudden
living a life of integrity,which is ultimately what that
relationship needs to heal andrebuild trust.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
So good.
This is challenging for me.
Like this is wonderful.
Thank you for unpacking theintimacy pyramid and I know you
have a lot of free resourcesthat I'm going to put in the
description for this episode.
Can you talk about?
Speaker 3 (25:38):
those love to share with people is a check-in that
we created.
We call it the HonestConnection, and we wanted
something that was challengingpersonally and really
relationally kind of a gift.
And what we did was is wewanted to create a check-in that
(26:00):
moved the heart, because wewere finding that so many
check-ins were about information.
I'm going to tell you this andI'm going to here's where I was
in my yellow circle and here'sthe person that I called and
that that information matters.
Information does matter.
We want to make sure there'sclarity, right, there's
transparency, but what we were,what we also weren't seeing, was
these kinds of movements of theheart and and for both right,
(26:22):
for for betraying spouses andfor for spouses who have
betrayed, and so that wasn't aconnecting experience.
It wasn't something that wasactually drawing them together.
It was something they oftenusually dreaded when, when we
would hear couples like, do youdo your check-in, they'd be like
no, and so we created somethingthat, as I do it, it's designed
to help me shift right Indifferent ways, and so, for
(26:45):
instance, right, we start withhonoring your partner.
My challenge and my check-in isto see if I can identify
something my spouse has donethat day that was either loving,
supportive of our relationshipor just kind of healthy for our
life together.
And when I do that, when Itruly do that, it shifts right
the way I see my partner, evenjust a little bit right.
(27:06):
It sees them as the workthey're putting in, even if
they're having a struggle, evenif they're struggling that day
right, even if it was a reallyhard day for them or we felt
disconnected.
I have the opportunity beforeme to kind of shift that focus.
I also then we have differentparts of the check-in where it's
designed to kind of create somehumility in myself, right, you
know, being able to name whereI'm struggling so I can remember
(27:29):
I still got work to do.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Yeah, it's that kind of that awareness,
self-awareness and ownership,taking responsibility.
So one of the pieces is own.
You own something from the daythat you did that maybe broke
connection, or maybe it'ssomething you didn't do, you
avoided, maybe you werecompliant right, or maybe it's
something you didn't do, youavoided, maybe you were
compliant right Something thatdidn't move you towards your
(27:50):
goals or the relationshiptowards the goals.
And so really, it's reallydesigned to help you practice
the different levels of thepyramid on a daily basis and
kind of build in that honesty,build in that safety for
yourself and for therelationship.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
And the cool part is we run a couples group program
and we have a challenge as apart of that program.
We challenge them to do theircheck-in for about 60 days and
then come back to us and tell usevery day for 60 days, and it
is amazing the difference thatthose 60 days is.
And so part of what we've doneis we've created a kind of
(28:26):
challenge for people.
Even if you're not in ourprogram.
We have a 30 day challenge forcouples.
Just try this for 30 days andsee what feels different about
your relationship Right.
See the feel, the connection,See how that is.
Because that's really whatcouples need.
They need the sense ofconnection, even if what they're
going through is reallydifficult.
If they feel connected in it,they will grow together.
(28:48):
They will be a stronger, morehealthy environment for each
individual.
And so that's what we wanted todo.
We wanted to create somethingthat could just kind of help a
couple like find that connectionright, Kind of get to a better
connected place in 30 days anduse that energy to take those
next steps in their relationship.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
I like that a lot.
I'm going to go download it.
I hope you guys can go down tothis link and get the honest
connection, Because I often getthe question like okay, well,
what should I talk about with myspouse, Like how should we do
this?
You know, when should we do it,what should we say?
And so this definitely meetsthat need.
Matthew and Joanna, thank youfor being here.
(29:29):
What is your favorite thingabout healing?
Speaker 3 (29:32):
I think it's the, it's to be able, the living
integrity, like I recognizedwhen, when discovery happened
and I was, and I was challengedto kind of look at my life, I
realized how distant my valuesand my actions were and how much
that burdened my heart and howmuch that really hurt because I
just didn't feel like I wasgetting to be myself.
(29:54):
And so I think what healing hasmeant is that I get to be
myself more often.
I get to see myself and live itout, and it looks like me.
It looks like the me that Godcreated and the me that I have
liked being, and so, and a lotof that is in our marriage, but
it's also now as a dad, it's asa coach to men that I work with,
(30:14):
it's as a speaker, it's as anauthor.
It's all these places that Iget to be myself, and I'm so
thankful for recovery.
Recovery was something for me atfirst that I felt like was a
burden I had to bear.
I have to go through recoverybecause I'm a bad person and I
need to stop being a bad person.
Now that I'm healed, Irecognize no, I get to be the
(30:38):
thing God created me to be, andthere's no greater.
There's no greater gift.
And the fact that I get to doit in this marriage the marriage
where I almost blew it up, Ialmost really ripped everything
apart, right that just makes iteven better, that that really
makes the life I get to lead sogreat.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
I think for me it's that the meaning and the purpose
that comes through theexperience and the journey of
healing.
And it's it's hard, you know,before I went through it, I've
heard other people say it, butit's just different on the other
side, once you've been throughthe fire, you've been through
the pain, you've experiencedthat healing and you found a
sense of purpose in it.
(31:17):
Just the life we get toexperience is so rich and so
blessed.
The people who we get to pourinto the transformation that we
get to see on a daily basis.
Like I could not have dreamedthat up myself.
God really has used our journeyto give us a life where there
(31:38):
is so much joy and so muchfulfillment, and so I'm honored
and so blessed to be able tokind of use my story and us to
use our story to bring hope andhealing to others.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
So redemptive, praising God for your story, and
hopeful for many others whoneed to hear it, because
oftentimes we get discouraged orwe wonder if we'll ever get
there.
And if you all want to connectwith Matthew and Joanna, go to
rabsmithteamcom and you cancheck out the other links down
(32:15):
there in the description.
Always remember you are God'sbeloved son and you he is
well-pleased.
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Hey man, thank you forlistening to my interview with
(00:22):
Matthew and Joanna Rabsmith.
It's not often that we get tohear a story from a couple who
have been through the fire ofdiscovering Matthew's double
life and his relationship withpornography and the broken trust
all the way to rebuilding theirrelationship stronger than it
was before.
I love to hear these stories ofredemption and when you listen
(00:44):
to them share, you will not onlyhave a sense of hope, but also
really practical help.
Matthew and Joanna have createdthis tool called the Intimacy
Pyramid, which is a frameworkfor how to heal as a couple, not
just as individuals separately,but together, and what that
looks like, even when there hasbeen significant pornography,
(01:08):
sexual addiction, sexualbetrayal.
So in this episode, you willlearn how to build a foundation
for true intimacy and at thevery end, matthew and Joanna
share a check-in for couplesthey created called the Honest
Connection, which I'm reallyexcited about and I think you're
going to love it.
Enjoy the episode I am soexcited to introduce you all to
Matthew and Joanna Rabsmith, theauthors of this book Building
(01:32):
True Intimacy and co-founders ofthe Rabsmith team.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Welcome to the show, so excited to be here.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Yeah, really, really pumped to have this conversation
.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
I was excited to meet you at SILS at the Sexual
Integrity Leadership Summit andwould love for you to start by
telling your stories.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Yeah, we've been doing work professionally now
for close to 10 years different,various ways.
Um, we got into this specificwork dealing with betrayal,
(02:13):
sexual addiction, problematicsexual behavior, recovery for
couples, specifically mainlybecause it was our story.
We, we um knew we wanted towork with couples.
We knew we wanted to have agreat marriage.
Joanna didn't know that, cominginto the marriage, that I was
bringing in a decades longstruggle with pornography,
different types of sexuallyacting out, and that all came to
a head about three years in andreally changed our trajectory
forever.
(02:34):
And thankful for that because Ithink we were finding ourselves
happy in some ways but reallystuck kind of feeling like there
was this, this relationship wecouldn't have.
And so when we started recoverywe were scared.
We were really unsure of whatthe journey looked like.
Nobody really had a greatvision for it.
(02:55):
They were kind of like if youmake it, congrats, you know.
And so we were kind ofdetermined to make it and then,
I think, also determined to helpother couples make it.
I think once we once we feltlike we were out of, determined
to make it and then, I think,also determined to help other
couples make it.
I think once we felt like wewere out of the woods.
We were like how do we makethis easier, how do we make this
more accessible to couples andfor them to have that kind of
(03:15):
sense of hope?
Speaker 2 (03:16):
early on.
Yeah, a lot of our experienceof recovery was that there's a
lot of great resources forMatthew, very few resources for
me and zero resources for us asa couple when we went through
recovery, and so it was abumpier journey than we would
have liked and so, as we got,like Matthew was saying on the
other side and realized, likethis is absolutely possible for
(03:38):
couples to heal and thrive afterbetrayal.
But it'd be really nice thatthere's some sort of roadmap for
them, right, and that thosefirst few weeks when they're in
utter chaos, right, when thatpartner is traumatized and they
don't know if there's any wayout, for someone to be able to
kind of show them the path out,and so that's then what kind of
(04:00):
led us into developing theintimacy pyramid with Dan Drake.
It was kind of we finally saw astructure, kind of a fairly
clear and easy structure tounderstand.
This is how you do it.
This is how you build healthyrelationship and healthy
intimacy post-betrayal.
And what we realized in workingwith couple after couple after
couple, both betrayal andnon-betrayal couples, is that
(04:20):
the building blocks are the samewhether or not you've been
through betrayal, non-betrayalcouples, is that the building
blocks are the same whether ornot you've been through betrayal
.
This is just healthyrelationship and we just didn't
have the roadmap, the tools whenwe first got married to know
how to do that, and so when thathonesty broke down, everything
else crumbled, and so just sucha joy being able to, and an
(04:41):
honor to walk with other couplesthrough that journey, help show
them kind of that roadmap alongthe way.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Yeah, a roadmap for the relationship, because many
of us are familiar with theindividual roadmap.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Exactly yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
But what about the couple's road?
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Yeah, and it's really tricky because you've got two
people in very different placesand very similar places.
Right, you've got somebody whohas spent a lifetime of hiding,
typically, and a lifetime ofreally battling shame and really
low sense of self, and we'reasking that person to step up.
We're saying, hey, thisrelationship needs you in a very
(05:24):
, very particular way.
We've got a spouse who thoughtthey knew their life, thought
they knew their story, who isnow having to re kind of learn
everything about their marriage,their, their you know their
partner, their life, and pick upthose pieces.
And then we're saying, and atthe same time, right, you're
going to be married.
And a lot of these couples,right, they have kids, they have
jobs, they have friendships,they're often in small groups at
(05:48):
churches.
Right, they're active, they'reliving a life, and so we
recognize that, as nice as itwould think to kind of keep
these two people siloed forever,right, and it'll just kind of
work itself out.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
They'll be really good roommates, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
We were having these couples be like but how do we
pay taxes together?
Right, if I don't trust him?
Right?
We?
Speaker 3 (06:11):
had a conversation about where to eat dinner, yeah,
and so that was that was reallythe hope is to say like this
this third thing, thisrelationship, is going to be
something you're taking care offrom day one.
Um, even if you're not doingkind of couples work or couples
counseling right, you might bedoing some really individual
work early on You're stillworking on the relationship,
you're still caring for therelationship the moment there's
(06:33):
discovery, because it's you know, if you're committed to that
restoration process, it startsday one.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Let's talk about this awesome framework, the intimacy
pyramid.
Okay, what is it?
Speaker 2 (06:48):
What is it?
Yes, so it is a visual of apyramid, and if you ever seen
Maslow's hierarchy of needs,that kind of right.
They each build on each otherthose different levels.
We kind of use that samestructure and thinking about the
relational needs right, whatdoes the relationship need to
thrive and be healthy?
And what we realized from rightgoing through betrayal, helping
(07:10):
other couples through it, isthat honesty is that bedrock, is
that foundation of the pyramid,because once that honesty is
shattered, everything else comescrumbling down around the
couple.
And so step one is rebuildinghonesty.
And so for most couples thatincludes what we would call a
full therapeutic disclosure,where the betrayer will share
(07:34):
everything, all the secrets,every single thing that was
hidden, that was kept from theirpartner.
They share because we have to.
Really it's almost like arestart button in honesty.
We can't get honest if we don'tget honest about the past first
, right.
And so we really focus onhonest about the past.
Then we shift into honest aboutthe present Right.
(07:55):
We also tell couples we hope wenever do another full
disclosure again with you guysRight, like one and done.
Now let's maintain thatfoundation of honesty on a daily
basis in the way we live ourlives in the way we are
transparent with one another inthe way we are transparent with
one another and from honesty werebuild the safety of the
relationship, because we can'thave safety without honesty,
(08:15):
right?
Speaker 3 (08:15):
That's what someone who's been betrayed knows.
Like I can't feel safe in arelationship where someone's
choosing to tell me bits ofinformation based on what's
gonna serve them, and so oncewe've established honesty, that
doesn't guarantee safety, thoughthat's the idea.
I think everybody has this idea.
Well, I'm being honest, butthat doesn't necessarily mean
(08:36):
it's safe if I'm honest.
But I'm going back to myaddiction every week and I'm
reengaging those destructivehabits.
Even if I'm being honest aboutit, that's still not a safe
relationship for the otherperson to enter into.
So safety is really about thekind of rebuilding of
trustworthiness in therelationship.
Am I back in the relationshipand am I operating relationally?
It's not about am I perfect,but it is about I've kind of
(08:59):
recommitted, I've revowed, andwhen I'm working with guys I
talk about that kind ofintegrity piece.
It's that the values that Icarry are now matching, more
aligned with my actions, andthat's what's going to rebuild
safety.
And so that safety is whatallows for that next level,
(09:22):
which is trust.
And trust is where the couplegets to start kind of being a
couple again.
Right, more collaborative work,right, more partnership.
They're thinking more about whodo we want to be after this is
all over?
Right, after we're kind of outof the woods, what's that going
to look like?
What's different?
What stays the same, right,what do we carry from the past
that we may be really lovedabout us, but what do we want to
be different about us?
(09:43):
And once they've had thatfoundation of trust, this is
when they truly get to kind ofstep into being a married couple
.
Right, by first beingvulnerable with each other,
really opening up some of themore tender places of their
hearts, right, sharing thingswith each other, bearing each
other's burdens a little bitmore because of that trust
(10:03):
that's been established.
And that's what gives way tothis beautiful intimacy, this
kind of oneness that we see,where they really get to feel
like we are one again.
And it's a different one thanmaybe they experienced before.
It's not just physical intimacy, right, it's intimacy kind of
across the whole, but it's thestructure that's built
(10:24):
underneath it that makes thatintimacy so special.
And that's what we were findingis, all these couples were
getting out of like discoveryand they wanted to go right to
intimacy.
They were like I want this, Iwant to go back right, or I want
it to be great, and we werehaving to explain to them.
We've got to go through thisprocess so that when you get to
this level of connection, thislevel of vulnerability, it has a
(10:46):
foundation, it rests on right,it's still going to move around
a little bit right.
All relationships are fluid.
We're constantly growing andchanging, we're struggling, but
we want this foundation thatwasn't there before, that will
help really protect you as youcontinue to lean into those more
kind of tender spaces.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
And it's not kind of we build the pyramid, then we're
done right, like, okay, checkdid honesty, check great did
safety.
These are things that wecontinue to build on Right.
And so, as you start toexperience intimacy at the top
of the pyramid, it allows for adeeper level of honesty,
self-awareness, vulnerability,right, which means we're going
(11:25):
to have a deeper sense of trustand safety with one another
which Right.
And so it is then kind ofcyclical, right.
We continue feeding into eachof those things our entire
relationship.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
You also talk about some of the skills that we need
to work on.
What are some of the mostimportant ones?
Speaker 3 (11:43):
Yeah, and I think it was really interesting because
when we first designed thepyramid, it really was just
about those levels, right, wewere kind of like big, really,
just big picture.
But then, as we were workingwith couples and individuals, we
were recognizing like it's onething just to tell someone to be
honest, like I I can.
I grew up in church and Iremember people being like you
should, you should, love yourneighbor.
Okay, great, right, you know,don't hate people.
(12:07):
Okay, I'm not trying to.
But guess what?
I come back the next week.
They're like did you love yourneighbor?
I'm like no, I didn't.
Actually this was not a goodlove your neighbor week for me.
I don't know that, I know how,right, I'm not quite sure.
And so when we, when we kind ofwent back to write the book, we
recognize the need to identifythese skills, we call them these
components of honesty.
(12:27):
Right, what is it that makes anhonest person?
And so, for honesty, forinstance, we recognize there has
to be awareness.
If I don't, if I'm not aware ofmyself, my body, my history, it
is really hard for me to behonest.
People are going to ask mequestions that I can't answer
legitimately.
I might want to, but I'm goingto stumble around and they're
(12:49):
going to realize wait, somethingdoesn't add up right with this
person, and so awareness and ifyou've ever seen someone, you
can tell they're clearlydysregulated or not.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Ok, you're like, hey, what's going on?
What's wrong?
Oh, nothing, I'm fine, right,lack of awareness and that's not
going to feel very safe for theother person.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Yeah, and we also recognize a practice of
authenticity, the skill of beingauthentic.
Right Shame creates such thismask that many of us wear.
I learned that the way for meto survive was by hiding and
putting on this front and kindof an unwillingness to be
(13:28):
inauthentic.
And I was a pastor for manyyears and I thought I was being
vulnerable.
But what I was really doing wasI was giving people a piece of
vulnerability so that I couldhide something else.
I wasn't willing to beauthentic and because I wasn't
authentic, I didn't really knowwhat I needed to deal with.
I didn't know what my truestruggles were and it was only
(13:49):
when I became authentic withmyself, with trusted other
people.
Right For me, one of the firstplaces I learned to be authentic
was in a healthy men'scommunity.
I was in a community of men whoare in recovery and that was
the place that I kind of firstlearned it.
That actually helped me to bemore authentic with Joanna.
It was that place that I wasable then to translate it and
say, okay, if I can be authenticthere, maybe I can be more
(14:11):
authentic here and you can get amore real version of me.
I can get a more real versionof me.
I'm going to know what I wantto celebrate and what I want to
work on, what I want to maybeimprove, what I want to be
different.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
And an important part of being able to demonstrate
that on authenticity is beingassertive in relationship.
It's actually it's this veryactive step of being transparent
.
It's not right.
Honesty isn't just like theabsence of lies or deceit.
It's me actively making thechoice to be more and more open,
honest, transparent with mypartner, and so we include that
(14:45):
assertiveness piece there.
It's hugely important.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Let's talk about assertiveness, because a lot of
us have trouble with that.
Either we are avoiding it orwe're becoming aggressive.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Yeah, yes, yeah, yeah , we like to tell people
opinionated does not meanassertive.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Sometimes they'll say healthy assertiveness is what
we mean.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
And I like that aggressive.
I have some people who are likeyeah, I was super assertive,
what did you do?
I walked in there and Idemanded that she finally
respect me.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
And I was like that.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
Yeah, we see assertiveness as working for the
relational good, because I knowone of the things that that we
learned when we were in ourgraduate program was that
healthy people are able to takecare of themselves.
They're not isolated, they'renot, they're not like
independent, but they're.
(15:44):
They are able to care forthemselves.
They're able to.
And that means creatingcommunity for myself, that I can
be vulnerable, right, that Ican be authentic with it, means
seeking out professionalresources where it's helpful and
where it's needed.
That's what, then allows me.
It's that that self-care whichis allows me to care for the
relationship, and not my partnernecessarily, but actually to
(16:06):
care for the relationship, andnot my partner necessarily, but
actually to care for therelationship.
And so assertiveness is thatkind of first act of caring for
the relationship.
I see an opportunity for us towork better or to be more open
with each other, or to take anext step, and I can speak into
that in a loving and invitingway, not demanding right, not
aggressive, but I'm also notsitting back thinking that I
(16:28):
don't have a say.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Yeah, that kind of like you mentioned the avoidance
or we see a lot of timescompliance and people think that
this is such a great thingthey're bringing to the
relationship, like sure we cando whatever you want, right, and
not actually speaking up, beinghonest, and what we see is the
more compliance, the moreresentment is hiding underneath
that compliance and so it reallywill destroy that relationship
(16:52):
very quickly.
And so learning how to speakassertively, openly, taking that
active step, not having yourpartner have to draw information
out of you, right, itdemonstrates kind of that
responsibility and that care,like Matthew's saying, that care
for the relationship and sohealthy assertiveness is always,
always good for the individualsand the relationship, and so if
(17:14):
it's not, then we're going totalk about OK, maybe this is not
the healthiest version what'sgoing on?
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Yeah, I love your story about trying to decide
where to go out to eat, andneither of you were being
assertive.
Speaker 3 (17:28):
And we would.
We would go round and round andI can speak like, especially
after discovery.
This was really difficult forme because in a lot of ways I
felt like my betrayal of Joannainvalidated my voice and that I
really I didn't deserve a voicein our relationship anymore
because of what I had done and Ithought that was the loving
(17:49):
thing to do.
Right, I'm going to step away.
But then I recognized I wasactually doing more of what I
had done in the past.
I was stepping out of therelationship.
Now I was doing that because ofthe kind of trap you were
talking about.
I kind of felt like I knewavoidance or aggression.
Those were the languages that Iwas able to speak, that I was
(18:12):
trained in.
I always thought, well,avoidance is the lesser of the
evils, right, it's, it's better.
But then I recognized, no,avoidance is what I was doing in
my addiction.
Right, that's what porn was.
It was an avoidance of my ownissues.
It was avoidance of relationalissues.
Right, I was.
I was using it to medicate, notdealing with anything in a
healthy way.
And so it is.
And that's why we say it'sreally cyclical, right it's.
This process works in on itself.
(18:33):
I'm a more assertive person.
As I've continued to work onmyself, I'm more capable of
having the kind of conversationsthat share my desires, my
dreams, my hopes, but withoutputting the demands, and that's
usually when you know it's ahealthy assertiveness, when I'm
not demanding of the otherperson right?
(18:53):
I'm seeing an opportunity, I'mnaming it and I'm letting us
decide as a couple.
Is this where we want to moveforward?
Speaker 2 (18:59):
And it can be really helpful if you have that
awareness right.
Again, that's why awareness isin there, so you understand your
own pattern and why you'removing into compliance right or
not being assertive.
Matthew shared his with thiskind of avoidance that maybe
came from shame For me, thatcompliance when it shows up,
it's actually control.
(19:19):
It's me trying to manage hisemotions.
Right, we'll just go along withwhat you want, because then you
will show up happier, you won'tbe as upset, right, we'll just
go along with what you want,because then you will show up
happier, you won't be as upset,right.
And so it was kind of a controltactic for me.
And so understanding okay, thatcomes from a place of feeling
unsafe inside of me and I needto notice that, be aware of that
and instead of complying ortrying to manage, I can name
(19:42):
those things hey, I'm notfeeling super safe right now and
I can tell I'm wanting tomanage you by not being
assertive.
But I know that is not the kindof relationship we've said that
we want, right, and so then Ican, and then I can lean into
that assertiveness.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
And as you talk about feeling unsafe, I'm reminded
that there is no 100% safety inany relationship.
So how do you move toward trustwhen you can't have that 100%
assurance that I'm going to besafe?
Speaker 2 (20:16):
And that's probably one of the scariest things for
partners, right, because aftergoing through betrayal, after
having your entire worldexplodes, it seems crazy to step
back into anything that youcan't have that 100% safety
right.
And so I think it takes so muchcourage, those partners who
choose to step in and work onthat relationship.
(20:39):
That is such a step of courage,especially early on, when
sometimes there's zero safetythat's been rebuilt and then
learning right, coming to gripswith like no, that 100% is not
possible.
It is sometimes reassuring whenwe tell them but 90, 95% is
possible and that's when youwill have a sense of safety,
right, the Gottmans have donesome research that shows us that
(20:59):
you can have a sense of safetyand experience of safety
relationally when thatpercentage is high enough.
You're never going to get to100.
But if you stay at 60%, youwill never feel safe.
And so we've seen some couplesdive into recovery pretty
aggressively early on, take somereally good steps in rebuilding
safety, and then they kind ofmaybe like get tired or burn out
(21:22):
or think, well, it's so muchdifferent than before, this must
be good enough, and they kindof stop.
But then they get reallyfrustrated because months, even
sometimes years, go by andthey're really stuck in that
safety level, going like whyaren't we rebuilding trust, why
aren't we experiencingvulnerability together and so
making sure they understand whatare the components of safety,
(21:43):
how do we rebuild to a feltsense of security?
And that partner is going tofeel that differently in their
body.
Right, it will be a prettypivotal experience and helping
them understand.
You're not going to feel thatin your body at 60%, at 70%, at
80%.
So it's helpful to track thegrowth, even if you're not
(22:05):
feeling it, experiencing it,knowing we're moving in the
right direction.
So in some ways, we're going totrust the process till we get
to that place where that secureattachment is starting to be
felt again.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
And one of the things that we've seen in couples.
That's an opportunity, I think,for and I'm going to speak to
men as betrayers.
We obviously there's differentsides of this, but we
predominantly work with husbandswho've betrayed, wives who've
been betrayed, and I will oftenspeak to the guys.
I think one of the moststraightforward things you can
do for your partner is to takethat 100% expectation off the
table.
I think a lot of people have inmind I've broken trust.
(22:40):
So what I need is I need ahundred percent trust from you
again and I'll feel okay.
And that puts all that pressureon the person who's been hurt
right, who's been betrayed.
That's putting that pressure onthem and you can do so much to
build safety by saying I'mtaking that pressure off of you.
When I accepted that Joannawould never fully trust me again
(23:01):
, it opened up an avenue for usto do so much healing versus
when I was in this place of whenare we going to expunge this
from my record right?
When is this going to be not apart of our story anymore?
And and I was recognizing all Iwas doing was elongating that
process.
I was wanting to get to trustand I was just pushing it
further and further down theroad.
Once I let go of that, once Ilet go of this kind of desire to
(23:27):
want to get my history out ofour story, that's when our
relationship started to growfaster and faster and faster.
Right Trust began to reallyblossom, and so I get it Like I
understand.
I remember that time thinkingwhat do I got to do to be back
to the kind of trust we hadbefore?
It was once I said that trustthat that is gone.
(23:49):
But what we have now, eventhough it's not what it was
before, is actually so muchbetter because it's built on
something.
I remember that Joanna trustedme before, but I knew I was
lying to her.
That was awful because I knewat any point she was going to
write, see a web history, or shewas going to write ask me a
(24:12):
question that I couldn't answerwell enough to keep her off of,
off of the trail, and thatwasn't a trusting relationship.
You know she thought she wastrusting something, but I, even
in my own experience, knew likeshe doesn't trust me because she
doesn't know me, she doesn'tknow what's going on.
And so, even though our trustis different now, I like it
because it's a trust that I know.
(24:33):
She knows me, she knows who Iam, she knows my struggles, she
knows where I am in my processand that's who she's choosing
right on that daily basis.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Yeah Well, tell betrayers your job is to be
trustworthy, not to be trusted.
And there is a big differencein how you will show up
depending on which one you seeas the goal.
If my goal is to be trusted,I'm going to try and manage this
other person, control them.
I'm going to perform and tryand look really good so I earn
(25:04):
their trust back Right and andpartners can feel that.
And then recovery.
That recovery doesn't feel safeand authentic.
If my job is to be trustworthy,the focus is all of a sudden
living a life of integrity,which is ultimately what that
relationship needs to heal andrebuild trust.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
So good.
This is challenging for me.
Like this is wonderful.
Thank you for unpacking theintimacy pyramid and I know you
have a lot of free resourcesthat I'm going to put in the
description for this episode.
Can you talk about?
Speaker 3 (25:38):
those love to share with people is a check-in that
we created.
We call it the HonestConnection, and we wanted
something that was challengingpersonally and really
relationally kind of a gift.
And what we did was is wewanted to create a check-in that
(26:00):
moved the heart, because wewere finding that so many
check-ins were about information.
I'm going to tell you this andI'm going to here's where I was
in my yellow circle and here'sthe person that I called and
that that information matters.
Information does matter.
We want to make sure there'sclarity, right, there's
transparency, but what we were,what we also weren't seeing, was
these kinds of movements of theheart and and for both right,
(26:22):
for for betraying spouses andfor for spouses who have
betrayed, and so that wasn't aconnecting experience.
It wasn't something that wasactually drawing them together.
It was something they oftenusually dreaded when, when we
would hear couples like, do youdo your check-in, they'd be like
no, and so we created somethingthat, as I do it, it's designed
to help me shift right Indifferent ways, and so, for
(26:45):
instance, right, we start withhonoring your partner.
My challenge and my check-in isto see if I can identify
something my spouse has donethat day that was either loving,
supportive of our relationshipor just kind of healthy for our
life together.
And when I do that, when Itruly do that, it shifts right
the way I see my partner, evenjust a little bit right.
(27:06):
It sees them as the workthey're putting in, even if
they're having a struggle, evenif they're struggling that day
right, even if it was a reallyhard day for them or we felt
disconnected.
I have the opportunity beforeme to kind of shift that focus.
I also then we have differentparts of the check-in where it's
designed to kind of create somehumility in myself, right, you
know, being able to name whereI'm struggling so I can remember
(27:29):
I still got work to do.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Yeah, it's that kind of that awareness,
self-awareness and ownership,taking responsibility.
So one of the pieces is own.
You own something from the daythat you did that maybe broke
connection, or maybe it'ssomething you didn't do, you
avoided, maybe you werecompliant right, or maybe it's
something you didn't do, youavoided, maybe you were
compliant right Something thatdidn't move you towards your
(27:50):
goals or the relationshiptowards the goals.
And so really, it's reallydesigned to help you practice
the different levels of thepyramid on a daily basis and
kind of build in that honesty,build in that safety for
yourself and for therelationship.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
And the cool part is we run a couples group program
and we have a challenge as apart of that program.
We challenge them to do theircheck-in for about 60 days and
then come back to us and tell usevery day for 60 days, and it
is amazing the difference thatthose 60 days is.
And so part of what we've doneis we've created a kind of
(28:26):
challenge for people.
Even if you're not in ourprogram.
We have a 30 day challenge forcouples.
Just try this for 30 days andsee what feels different about
your relationship Right.
See the feel, the connection,See how that is.
Because that's really whatcouples need.
They need the sense ofconnection, even if what they're
going through is reallydifficult.
If they feel connected in it,they will grow together.
(28:48):
They will be a stronger, morehealthy environment for each
individual.
And so that's what we wanted todo.
We wanted to create somethingthat could just kind of help a
couple like find that connectionright, Kind of get to a better
connected place in 30 days anduse that energy to take those
next steps in their relationship.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
I like that a lot.
I'm going to go download it.
I hope you guys can go down tothis link and get the honest
connection, Because I often getthe question like okay, well,
what should I talk about with myspouse, Like how should we do
this?
You know, when should we do it,what should we say?
And so this definitely meetsthat need.
Matthew and Joanna, thank youfor being here.
(29:29):
What is your favorite thingabout healing?
Speaker 3 (29:32):
I think it's the, it's to be able, the living
integrity, like I recognizedwhen, when discovery happened
and I was, and I was challengedto kind of look at my life, I
realized how distant my valuesand my actions were and how much
that burdened my heart and howmuch that really hurt because I
just didn't feel like I wasgetting to be myself.
(29:54):
And so I think what healing hasmeant is that I get to be
myself more often.
I get to see myself and live itout, and it looks like me.
It looks like the me that Godcreated and the me that I have
liked being, and so, and a lotof that is in our marriage, but
it's also now as a dad, it's asa coach to men that I work with,
(30:14):
it's as a speaker, it's as anauthor.
It's all these places that Iget to be myself, and I'm so
thankful for recovery.
Recovery was something for me atfirst that I felt like was a
burden I had to bear.
I have to go through recoverybecause I'm a bad person and I
need to stop being a bad person.
Now that I'm healed, Irecognize no, I get to be the
(30:38):
thing God created me to be, andthere's no greater.
There's no greater gift.
And the fact that I get to doit in this marriage the marriage
where I almost blew it up, Ialmost really ripped everything
apart, right that just makes iteven better, that that really
makes the life I get to lead sogreat.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
I think for me it's that the meaning and the purpose
that comes through theexperience and the journey of
healing.
And it's it's hard, you know,before I went through it, I've
heard other people say it, butit's just different on the other
side, once you've been throughthe fire, you've been through
the pain, you've experiencedthat healing and you found a
sense of purpose in it.
(31:17):
Just the life we get toexperience is so rich and so
blessed.
The people who we get to pourinto the transformation that we
get to see on a daily basis.
Like I could not have dreamedthat up myself.
God really has used our journeyto give us a life where there
(31:38):
is so much joy and so muchfulfillment, and so I'm honored
and so blessed to be able tokind of use my story and us to
use our story to bring hope andhealing to others.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
So redemptive, praising God for your story, and
hopeful for many others whoneed to hear it, because
oftentimes we get discouraged orwe wonder if we'll ever get
there.
And if you all want to connectwith Matthew and Joanna, go to
rabsmithteamcom and you cancheck out the other links down
(32:15):
there in the description.
Always remember you are God'sbeloved son and you he is
well-pleased.
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