February 17, 2025 • 22 mins
Most of us were never taught how to be vulnerable when we’re sexually struggling. In this episode, Henry Brown shares a simple framework called “scratches, scabs, and scars” to help you decide what to share, when to share, how much to share, and who to trust.
Henry Brown is the Director Of Operations & Support at Husband Material. He is nationally certified as a Life Coach, Recovery Coach, and Sex Addiction Coach. Henry is also a Certified Husband Material Coach. Learn more at henrybrown.net
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- Step 1: Listen to this podcast or watch on YouTube
- Step 2: Join the private Husband Material Community
- Step 3: Take the free mini-course: How To Outgrow Porn
- Step 4: Try the all-in-one program: Husband Material Academy
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Hey man, thank you so much forlistening to my interview with
(00:21):
Henry Brown on how to bevulnerable.
You're going to get a glimpseinto his story, which is amazing
, and then a framework he hasdeveloped for learning when to
share and how to share whatyou're sexually struggling with.
It's called scratches, scabsand scars.
This is such crucialinformation because many of us
(00:42):
never learned the differencebetween sharing something in the
moment when we're feelingtriggered, versus being able to
process what's going on at adeeper level once we have some
space.
And then also how to know whento share these things publicly
Scratches, scabs and Scars isgoing to help you learn how to
do that.
I love Henry so much.
I'm so grateful for hisguidance, both to me and to all
(01:05):
of us in the community.
Enjoy the episode.
Today, I have the delight ofwelcoming Henry Brown back to
the show.
Henry is our Director ofOperations and Support at
Husband Material Ministries andyou may not know that he is our
newest certified husbandmaterial coach hey Henry.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Hey Drew, how are you today?
Speaker 1 (01:28):
I'm really excited for what you're going to share
with everyone about this topicof scratches, scabs and scars
and how to be vulnerable.
Before we get to that, I feellike it would be really helpful
for everyone to hear more ofyour story and what God has done
in your life to bring you tothis place.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Sure Drew.
I was adopted as an infant intoa Christian family and had what
I considered a wonderfulchildhood.
And for me, I discoveredmasturbation early, at the age
of 11, not long after I turned11.
And that allowed me to feelthings that I wasn't allowed to
(02:11):
feel in my home.
Since, going through husbandmaterial, what I realize is my
family might have been normal,but it wasn't perfect, and one
of the things that I heard overand over as a kid growing up is
when I felt something that was adifficult emotion.
It was met with.
You know that isn't true andthat's a great thing to
(02:35):
understand, but at the time itdoesn't do anything for your
heart.
You know it can feel bad and itcan be false, but the falseness
of it doesn't negate how itfeels.
And for me, I left that outthrough masturbatory orgasms and
(02:59):
that was my solution to notbeing allowed to feel.
And it wasn't until five yearslater that I experienced some
non-contact sexual abuse at aswim camp where some older guys
when I was 16, were trying toorganize a hookup for me so I
(03:19):
could lose my virginity, butthey decided it wasn't worth
their campus job and so theysent me back to my room with a
stack of magazines to spend theweekend with, and so that's kind
of how porn was introduced.
Later that summer I became aChristian.
I'd always been in the churchbut I wasn't a follower of Jesus
(03:40):
and then I didn't reallystruggle with porn toward the
end of college, when thingsweren't working out on the
dating front.
Then I was like what's what?
I don't understand, what'swrong?
What I think it was wrong nowis when I've had the breakup
talk.
Most of the time I've beendumped.
(04:00):
One time I did the dumping itwas you're two in your head and
I didn't know how to feel, andso I didn't understand what that
meant.
And that's how you were raisedwas very confusing to me, and so
(04:27):
porn became a thing.
What am I missing?
Is there something here thatI'm missing?
Again, it was a solution, not agood one, and so it became a
struggle toward the end ofcollege and early 20s.
I even was at a youth ministryconference in Atlanta and
confessed that to a mentor, andit was just like, well, we'll
pray for you.
And so I attributed mypornography use to spiritual
(04:52):
warfare.
It was very sporadic, I like tosay.
It was consistent, but notconstant that it would pop up,
and in the work I've done sincefinding husband material, I've
realized what that pattern is.
Now, once we got to COVID gosh,my porn and masturbation
(05:15):
escalated dramatically, and whatI've discovered through the
work that I've done is that wasbecause of the isolation and
abandonment that I felt, andthat's when I would act out is
when I felt alone, and so COVIDreally magnified that
(05:36):
tremendously, and so I contactedyou, like in a panic, like oh
my gosh, I've got to dosomething.
Like, oh my gosh, I've got todo something.
And then I joined one of yoursmall groups and then joined the
beta of Husband MaterialAcademy in September of 2020.
And so that was just aphenomenal experience.
And then we worked togetherafter that to refine Husband
(06:03):
Material Academy.
I took all the surveys that youdid of what worked and what
didn't and compiled thatinformation for you.
And then you took that and youmade a lot of changes to what
exists now Completely differentprogram, but it's the same.
Then, almost two years ago, Istarted working for you part
time doing support for clientsand then about a year ago I
(06:27):
started working with youpart-time doing support for
clients and then about a yearago I started working with you
full-time.
Yeah, you know, and throughthat processing and that healing
that really helped me gain alot of sobriety.
It doesn't come easy.
There's a physical component toporn recovery and then there's
the emotional component to pornrecovery.
And then there's the emotionalcomponent to porn recovery.
And you know, the statisticssay it takes somewhere between
(06:51):
two and five years to recoverfrom sexual addiction.
I don't know where thatstatistic comes from Patrick
Carnes, I've heard it repeatedmultiple times and it took
probably three, yeah, threeyears.
Sometimes you deal with thingsand then you think, oh, I've got
(07:13):
a handle on this.
And six months, 12 months, 18months later it comes back and
it's like peeling an onion.
It's just layer after layerafter layer after layer and
there's a different thing andyou've just got to keep at it
and it can be so frustrating.
I know in husband material wedon't really count sobriety
streaks, but in those beginningdays that was important because
(07:35):
I didn't really know what wasgoing on.
And it took me a while to getpast day 17 or 18 because I
would forget to do the emotionalwork that I needed to do to
process these things.
And so just getting up on thosetraining wheels and moving and
then taking the training wheelsoff takes time.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
That's really well said, henry.
Thank you so much for sharingyour story.
You talk about how difficult itis when we're just starting out
with other men in recovery,especially if other men are part
of your sexual arousal template.
We need help to learn how toshare vulnerably, like how do
(08:21):
you be vulnerable?
So many of us were not taughtthis, henry, the reason that I
wanted to interview you aboutthis topic of how to be
vulnerable is because I reallylove the framework you've put
together, building on a teachingfrom Amy Porterfield about
scratches, scabs and scars.
What's that about?
I?
Speaker 2 (08:39):
listened to Amy Porterfield for a really long
time and she was talking abouthow to share mistakes with your
audience.
It really resonated with me andI said this would be great for
recovery, but it's incomplete.
And so if you think ofscratches, scabs and scars, this
will be how to relate to otherswhen you're in different phases
(09:03):
of an episode.
We'll call it an incident, andso a scratch can be something
that's real surface level.
It could be just somebodyhonked at you in the drive-thru
today and it kind of rubbed youthe wrong way and you don't feel
like you deserved it, and soyou may be tempted to act out
(09:26):
because of that.
It could be a really deepscratch that really needs like
if it was a physical wound, itwould need stitches.
But the main thing in thatfirst part, when you've got that
scratch, is to connect withothers so you don't end up
(09:46):
isolating and acting out.
And so what do you talk about?
You can talk about anything.
The point here is connection.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
So in a conversation about a scratch you wouldn't
necessarily open up aboutspecific sexual fantasies or
trauma.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
No, and the scratch may go even further, because if
it's a surface level scratch,you haven't started to act out.
If it's a little deeper, maybeyou've already pulled up the
browser and gone to yourfavorite porn site.
You don't even have to tell theperson that you talk to that
you've done that much.
You're just trying to get outof that tunnel of isolation to
(10:31):
connect with other people.
I know I've had people reportto me inside the community that
yeah, this guy I've been talkingto and I asked him how he's
doing and he was verydescriptive in telling me how he
was acting out.
We don't need to be thatdescriptive where we have a
(10:52):
scratch.
We need to communicate first topull us out of that isolation.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
So when you're on the scene of being sexually or
emotionally triggered, there's aneed to break the isolation,
simply connect, and there's adanger in oversharing.
At that point, am I right?
Speaker 2 (11:11):
I think the danger is huge in oversharing.
You're not in the right mindset, you just need that connection
with another person and maybeyou can't talk too much about
what's going on with you.
But you might say hey, I knowyou're going on a trip next week
.
What do you have left toprepare?
You're doing things to connectwith other people, to pull you
(11:35):
out of that tunnel of isolation,to pull you out of that cave.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
So when you're in the cave and you're feeling
emotionally triggered, you'refeeling the urge to watch porn.
You don't necessarily need toshare all the details.
You just need to find somepoint of connection to get out
of the cave.
Yes, and it could be a sign ofdanger or a red flag if
someone's reaching out whilethey're being triggered, but
(12:02):
they're being very, verydescriptive about the type of
porn they're trying to get to orwhat they're feeling in their
body.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
Yeah, because the person that's most available may
not be someone that you canshare those things with.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
And that's why we have the HMA International SOS
chat where people can reach outfor prayer.
They don't go deep, they justbreak isolation and connect.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Yeah, in the International SOS, sometimes
they'll request prayer.
Sometimes men will say I needto talk and they'll talk through
WhatsApp.
They'll talk through FaceTime,maybe it's audio only, maybe
it's video.
They just need another personto be in their lives in that
moment.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
That makes a lot of sense.
So that's the scratch category.
What about scabs?
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Well, scab, if you think about it, when you have a
wound, the first thing is isyou've kind of got a scratch and
maybe it's bleeding.
Then you're going to have ascab and that scab is where the
healing occurs.
That is where, with trustedpeople, you can begin to discuss
what was happening in thatmoment and be curious about it.
(13:12):
So the person cut you off andyou are with your triad and one
of the reasons why we promotetriads is for the safety aspect
and the availability aspect isanother, because not everyone's
available 24-7.
And so with your triad, youhave that group, you have that
(13:33):
safety in numbers and you canbegin to process.
Well, why did it make you so mad?
When that person cut you off?
Did you think about?
Maybe you didn't see them, orwhat is it?
When can you remember feelinglike that?
Before you go back into yourpast, into your childhood, and
(13:54):
maybe you had a cousin that wasa bully, that would constantly,
anytime you said I want to playClue, they would cut you off and
say, no, we're going to play,sorry.
And you begin to learn wherethat scratch, why it hurts so
bad.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
And if that cousin sexually abused you, it would
make a lot of sense why youmight go to porn that would be
similar to that sexual abuse.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Or even opposite of that sexual abuse.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
So true.
So after a bit of time haspassed, the scratch becomes a
scab and that's where thehealing happens.
That's where we need to createspace with people who really
know us to process what wasgoing on underneath the surface
level.
Cut, yes, and I love that imageof a scab because, you know,
(14:50):
scabs can often get infected ifwe don't clean them out, if we
don't make sure that the spaceis safe and it's contained.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
And the thing about a scab is is if you cover it up,
it can't get the air that itneeds to heal your body and
that's when it gets infected andit's just like going back in
that cave and it just makes itworse.
And exposure is what helps thehealing.
The process of getting from ascratch to a scab is pretty
(15:22):
quick but that scab can staythere a while.
It can get kind of itchy.
Parts of it come off.
It doesn't all come offnecessarily at once.
When the last big bit of thescab comes off, it might hurt.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Isn't that exactly what we go through in outgrowing
porn and healing childhoodtrauma?
The way you described the scabscoming off bit by bit, it's not
all at once, but when there's abig breakthrough it hurts.
Oh my goodness, that resonateswith me so much.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
When that scab finally comes off, the skin that
was underneath that is still alittle bit tender and hasn't
completely healed and maybe ascar is going to form over that.
I remember when I was probablyeight, I fell on a gravel road
riding my bike and I had thislong line keloid scar on my arm
(16:17):
for the longest time.
And when we have the scar iswhen we can talk about it
publicly, and so the things ourmembers or the listeners hear
you talk about on this podcastare the scars from the things
that you've healed from.
You're not sharing them whenthey're a scratch.
(16:37):
You're not sharing them whenthey're scabbed over.
You're sharing those when theybecome a scar and you know what
was behind it.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
And I don't do that perfectly.
None of us do.
We are learners.
So if you're wondering how do Ishare about a recent relapse,
or how do I tell others aboutthis sexual struggle that I'm
having, Ask yourself is this ascratch that's happening in the
moment?
Is this a scab where enoughtime has passed that you're
(17:10):
ready to allow the healingprocess to unfold, but not ready
to share it publicly yet?
Or is this a scar that you canbe open about because it's
healed?
When I'm opening up about a scabthat's still in the process of
being healed, it still needs tobe exposed.
(17:30):
There's more stuff down therethat is not ready for the world
to know about.
We need to be selective aboutwho we entrust ourselves to.
Not everyone is going to beable to receive that.
Not every space is going to besafe for that kind of processing
.
Able to receive that.
(17:51):
Not every space is going to besafe for that kind of processing
.
When we can have that space andthe scabs finally come off and
when there is a scar, that'swhen we can share our story more
publicly and with people whomay not respond in the way that
we would want, and that's okay.
I love this framework.
It gives us a really great gameplan for what to do when we're
(18:14):
in the moment of sexuallystruggling and then a little bit
afterwards, when we have thechance to process it or we're in
a safe space.
And then at what point can webe more public about it?
Henry, you help guys at HazardMaterial figure out how to
relate to other communitymembers all the time.
What are some situations wherethis framework of scratches,
(18:37):
scabs and scars is reallyhelpful?
Speaker 2 (18:39):
It's very helpful in the scratch phase.
That is probably where amajority of the issues occur.
A majority of the issues occuryou find someone that's
available to talk and you sharetoo much.
They're not a trustedindividual, but they're
available.
And then it spirals out ofcontrol and there's so many men
(19:01):
that were like, oh, this washappening and I didn't need to
hear that because this was goingon with me.
And there's not that mutualconcern necessarily.
It's just someone that'savailable and it can spiral.
And there have been men thatthought they were being
(19:22):
vulnerable, sharing those things, that ended up acting out with
other men in the community andthey've had to be removed.
And that's not a permanentthing, but it's not something
that we enjoy doing, but we doit for a reason.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Cause we want this to be a safe place.
We want husband material to belike that hospital where you can
bring your surface levelstruggles or your deep wounds
and find a place to receivecuriosity, compassion and
connection.
One of the most popular ways formen in our community to be
(20:01):
vulnerable and connect with eachother is by joining a triad,
which is a student-led smallgroup as part of Husband
Material Academy.
We currently have 32 of thesegroups.
Of course, you can form yourown groups outside of that, but
those are the ones that weoversee and support, and the
level of support and the levelof commitment in a group and in
a place to be vulnerable tendsto be higher when there's more
(20:23):
investment.
So that's one of the reasonswhy joining Husband Material
Academy or joining a privatesmall group can lead to higher
quality friendships wherethere's more training, there's
more commitment, there's moresafety involved, and so when
you're being vulnerable, youwant to consider how safe is the
space that I'm in and what'sthe level of commitment required
(20:44):
to be here, because that'sgoing to determine what kind of
a response you can expect toreceive.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
And then there's a place to share the healing that
we've received.
Being Christian-based, we'retalking about God's faithfulness
, of how he's helped us overcomethis, and you look in Scripture
(21:10):
and there are so many differentways God healed people.
But being able to be faithfulto talk about that that I
received this healing is hugeand that this is how it happened
for me.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
I love that the Husband Material community is a
place to tell your story, askquestions, make friends and
celebrate wins.
So often we are so focused onconfessing all of our mistakes.
At Husband Material, we areequally focused on confessing
(21:46):
our growth, our healing and theredemption that's unfolding in
our lives.
I feel so privileged to have afront row seat to what God is
doing in your life, henry, andfor all of you guys who have
listened to this podcast andreceived a lot of help and
insight.
Thank you for being part ofthis.
And if you would like coachingfrom Henry, our newest certified
(22:10):
husband material coach, henry,where should they go?
Speaker 2 (22:13):
They can just go to henrybrownnet and it will take
them to my booking link and then, hopefully later I'll have a
website that explains a littlemore.
Awesome, henry, what is yourfavorite?
Speaker 1 (22:24):
thing about freedom from porn.
Awesome, Henry.
What is your favorite thingabout freedom from porn?
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Just being able to feel I don't just have to be
numb anymore.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
I love that.
That goes all the way back tothe story of how your parents
responded to your feelings.
Yeah, it does.
At the risk of being reallytrite, feel it to heal it.
It's tweetable.
It's tweetable.
There's truth in that, henry.
Thank you so much for beingwith us.
I'm going to say another phrasethat for some of you may sound
cheesy or it may soundrepetitive, but it's true.
Always remember you are God'sbeloved son and you, he, is
(23:05):
well-pleased.
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Hey man, thank you so much forlistening to my interview with
(00:21):
Henry Brown on how to bevulnerable.
You're going to get a glimpseinto his story, which is amazing
, and then a framework he hasdeveloped for learning when to
share and how to share whatyou're sexually struggling with.
It's called scratches, scabsand scars.
This is such crucialinformation because many of us
(00:42):
never learned the differencebetween sharing something in the
moment when we're feelingtriggered, versus being able to
process what's going on at adeeper level once we have some
space.
And then also how to know whento share these things publicly
Scratches, scabs and Scars isgoing to help you learn how to
do that.
I love Henry so much.
I'm so grateful for hisguidance, both to me and to all
(01:05):
of us in the community.
Enjoy the episode.
Today, I have the delight ofwelcoming Henry Brown back to
the show.
Henry is our Director ofOperations and Support at
Husband Material Ministries andyou may not know that he is our
newest certified husbandmaterial coach hey Henry.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Hey Drew, how are you today?
Speaker 1 (01:28):
I'm really excited for what you're going to share
with everyone about this topicof scratches, scabs and scars
and how to be vulnerable.
Before we get to that, I feellike it would be really helpful
for everyone to hear more ofyour story and what God has done
in your life to bring you tothis place.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Sure Drew.
I was adopted as an infant intoa Christian family and had what
I considered a wonderfulchildhood.
And for me, I discoveredmasturbation early, at the age
of 11, not long after I turned11.
And that allowed me to feelthings that I wasn't allowed to
(02:11):
feel in my home.
Since, going through husbandmaterial, what I realize is my
family might have been normal,but it wasn't perfect, and one
of the things that I heard overand over as a kid growing up is
when I felt something that was adifficult emotion.
It was met with.
You know that isn't true andthat's a great thing to
(02:35):
understand, but at the time itdoesn't do anything for your
heart.
You know it can feel bad and itcan be false, but the falseness
of it doesn't negate how itfeels.
And for me, I left that outthrough masturbatory orgasms and
(02:59):
that was my solution to notbeing allowed to feel.
And it wasn't until five yearslater that I experienced some
non-contact sexual abuse at aswim camp where some older guys
when I was 16, were trying toorganize a hookup for me so I
(03:19):
could lose my virginity, butthey decided it wasn't worth
their campus job and so theysent me back to my room with a
stack of magazines to spend theweekend with, and so that's kind
of how porn was introduced.
Later that summer I became aChristian.
I'd always been in the churchbut I wasn't a follower of Jesus
(03:40):
and then I didn't reallystruggle with porn toward the
end of college, when thingsweren't working out on the
dating front.
Then I was like what's what?
I don't understand, what'swrong?
What I think it was wrong nowis when I've had the breakup
talk.
Most of the time I've beendumped.
(04:00):
One time I did the dumping itwas you're two in your head and
I didn't know how to feel, andso I didn't understand what that
meant.
And that's how you were raisedwas very confusing to me, and so
(04:27):
porn became a thing.
What am I missing?
Is there something here thatI'm missing?
Again, it was a solution, not agood one, and so it became a
struggle toward the end ofcollege and early 20s.
I even was at a youth ministryconference in Atlanta and
confessed that to a mentor, andit was just like, well, we'll
pray for you.
And so I attributed mypornography use to spiritual
(04:52):
warfare.
It was very sporadic, I like tosay.
It was consistent, but notconstant that it would pop up,
and in the work I've done sincefinding husband material, I've
realized what that pattern is.
Now, once we got to COVID gosh,my porn and masturbation
(05:15):
escalated dramatically, and whatI've discovered through the
work that I've done is that wasbecause of the isolation and
abandonment that I felt, andthat's when I would act out is
when I felt alone, and so COVIDreally magnified that
(05:36):
tremendously, and so I contactedyou, like in a panic, like oh
my gosh, I've got to dosomething.
Like, oh my gosh, I've got todo something.
And then I joined one of yoursmall groups and then joined the
beta of Husband MaterialAcademy in September of 2020.
And so that was just aphenomenal experience.
And then we worked togetherafter that to refine Husband
(06:03):
Material Academy.
I took all the surveys that youdid of what worked and what
didn't and compiled thatinformation for you.
And then you took that and youmade a lot of changes to what
exists now Completely differentprogram, but it's the same.
Then, almost two years ago, Istarted working for you part
time doing support for clientsand then about a year ago I
(06:27):
started working with youpart-time doing support for
clients and then about a yearago I started working with you
full-time.
Yeah, you know, and throughthat processing and that healing
that really helped me gain alot of sobriety.
It doesn't come easy.
There's a physical component toporn recovery and then there's
the emotional component to pornrecovery.
And then there's the emotionalcomponent to porn recovery.
And you know, the statisticssay it takes somewhere between
(06:51):
two and five years to recoverfrom sexual addiction.
I don't know where thatstatistic comes from Patrick
Carnes, I've heard it repeatedmultiple times and it took
probably three, yeah, threeyears.
Sometimes you deal with thingsand then you think, oh, I've got
(07:13):
a handle on this.
And six months, 12 months, 18months later it comes back and
it's like peeling an onion.
It's just layer after layerafter layer after layer and
there's a different thing andyou've just got to keep at it
and it can be so frustrating.
I know in husband material wedon't really count sobriety
streaks, but in those beginningdays that was important because
(07:35):
I didn't really know what wasgoing on.
And it took me a while to getpast day 17 or 18 because I
would forget to do the emotionalwork that I needed to do to
process these things.
And so just getting up on thosetraining wheels and moving and
then taking the training wheelsoff takes time.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
That's really well said, henry.
Thank you so much for sharingyour story.
You talk about how difficult itis when we're just starting out
with other men in recovery,especially if other men are part
of your sexual arousal template.
We need help to learn how toshare vulnerably, like how do
(08:21):
you be vulnerable?
So many of us were not taughtthis, henry, the reason that I
wanted to interview you aboutthis topic of how to be
vulnerable is because I reallylove the framework you've put
together, building on a teachingfrom Amy Porterfield about
scratches, scabs and scars.
What's that about?
I?
Speaker 2 (08:39):
listened to Amy Porterfield for a really long
time and she was talking abouthow to share mistakes with your
audience.
It really resonated with me andI said this would be great for
recovery, but it's incomplete.
And so if you think ofscratches, scabs and scars, this
will be how to relate to otherswhen you're in different phases
(09:03):
of an episode.
We'll call it an incident, andso a scratch can be something
that's real surface level.
It could be just somebodyhonked at you in the drive-thru
today and it kind of rubbed youthe wrong way and you don't feel
like you deserved it, and soyou may be tempted to act out
(09:26):
because of that.
It could be a really deepscratch that really needs like
if it was a physical wound, itwould need stitches.
But the main thing in thatfirst part, when you've got that
scratch, is to connect withothers so you don't end up
(09:46):
isolating and acting out.
And so what do you talk about?
You can talk about anything.
The point here is connection.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
So in a conversation about a scratch you wouldn't
necessarily open up aboutspecific sexual fantasies or
trauma.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
No, and the scratch may go even further, because if
it's a surface level scratch,you haven't started to act out.
If it's a little deeper, maybeyou've already pulled up the
browser and gone to yourfavorite porn site.
You don't even have to tell theperson that you talk to that
you've done that much.
You're just trying to get outof that tunnel of isolation to
(10:31):
connect with other people.
I know I've had people reportto me inside the community that
yeah, this guy I've been talkingto and I asked him how he's
doing and he was verydescriptive in telling me how he
was acting out.
We don't need to be thatdescriptive where we have a
(10:52):
scratch.
We need to communicate first topull us out of that isolation.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
So when you're on the scene of being sexually or
emotionally triggered, there's aneed to break the isolation,
simply connect, and there's adanger in oversharing.
At that point, am I right?
Speaker 2 (11:11):
I think the danger is huge in oversharing.
You're not in the right mindset, you just need that connection
with another person and maybeyou can't talk too much about
what's going on with you.
But you might say hey, I knowyou're going on a trip next week
.
What do you have left toprepare?
You're doing things to connectwith other people, to pull you
(11:35):
out of that tunnel of isolation,to pull you out of that cave.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
So when you're in the cave and you're feeling
emotionally triggered, you'refeeling the urge to watch porn.
You don't necessarily need toshare all the details.
You just need to find somepoint of connection to get out
of the cave.
Yes, and it could be a sign ofdanger or a red flag if
someone's reaching out whilethey're being triggered, but
(12:02):
they're being very, verydescriptive about the type of
porn they're trying to get to orwhat they're feeling in their
body.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
Yeah, because the person that's most available may
not be someone that you canshare those things with.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
And that's why we have the HMA International SOS
chat where people can reach outfor prayer.
They don't go deep, they justbreak isolation and connect.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Yeah, in the International SOS, sometimes
they'll request prayer.
Sometimes men will say I needto talk and they'll talk through
WhatsApp.
They'll talk through FaceTime,maybe it's audio only, maybe
it's video.
They just need another personto be in their lives in that
moment.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
That makes a lot of sense.
So that's the scratch category.
What about scabs?
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Well, scab, if you think about it, when you have a
wound, the first thing is isyou've kind of got a scratch and
maybe it's bleeding.
Then you're going to have ascab and that scab is where the
healing occurs.
That is where, with trustedpeople, you can begin to discuss
what was happening in thatmoment and be curious about it.
(13:12):
So the person cut you off andyou are with your triad and one
of the reasons why we promotetriads is for the safety aspect
and the availability aspect isanother, because not everyone's
available 24-7.
And so with your triad, youhave that group, you have that
(13:33):
safety in numbers and you canbegin to process.
Well, why did it make you so mad?
When that person cut you off?
Did you think about?
Maybe you didn't see them, orwhat is it?
When can you remember feelinglike that?
Before you go back into yourpast, into your childhood, and
(13:54):
maybe you had a cousin that wasa bully, that would constantly,
anytime you said I want to playClue, they would cut you off and
say, no, we're going to play,sorry.
And you begin to learn wherethat scratch, why it hurts so
bad.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
And if that cousin sexually abused you, it would
make a lot of sense why youmight go to porn that would be
similar to that sexual abuse.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Or even opposite of that sexual abuse.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
So true.
So after a bit of time haspassed, the scratch becomes a
scab and that's where thehealing happens.
That's where we need to createspace with people who really
know us to process what wasgoing on underneath the surface
level.
Cut, yes, and I love that imageof a scab because, you know,
(14:50):
scabs can often get infected ifwe don't clean them out, if we
don't make sure that the spaceis safe and it's contained.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
And the thing about a scab is is if you cover it up,
it can't get the air that itneeds to heal your body and
that's when it gets infected andit's just like going back in
that cave and it just makes itworse.
And exposure is what helps thehealing.
The process of getting from ascratch to a scab is pretty
(15:22):
quick but that scab can staythere a while.
It can get kind of itchy.
Parts of it come off.
It doesn't all come offnecessarily at once.
When the last big bit of thescab comes off, it might hurt.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Isn't that exactly what we go through in outgrowing
porn and healing childhoodtrauma?
The way you described the scabscoming off bit by bit, it's not
all at once, but when there's abig breakthrough it hurts.
Oh my goodness, that resonateswith me so much.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
When that scab finally comes off, the skin that
was underneath that is still alittle bit tender and hasn't
completely healed and maybe ascar is going to form over that.
I remember when I was probablyeight, I fell on a gravel road
riding my bike and I had thislong line keloid scar on my arm
(16:17):
for the longest time.
And when we have the scar iswhen we can talk about it
publicly, and so the things ourmembers or the listeners hear
you talk about on this podcastare the scars from the things
that you've healed from.
You're not sharing them whenthey're a scratch.
(16:37):
You're not sharing them whenthey're scabbed over.
You're sharing those when theybecome a scar and you know what
was behind it.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
And I don't do that perfectly.
None of us do.
We are learners.
So if you're wondering how do Ishare about a recent relapse,
or how do I tell others aboutthis sexual struggle that I'm
having, Ask yourself is this ascratch that's happening in the
moment?
Is this a scab where enoughtime has passed that you're
(17:10):
ready to allow the healingprocess to unfold, but not ready
to share it publicly yet?
Or is this a scar that you canbe open about because it's
healed?
When I'm opening up about a scabthat's still in the process of
being healed, it still needs tobe exposed.
(17:30):
There's more stuff down therethat is not ready for the world
to know about.
We need to be selective aboutwho we entrust ourselves to.
Not everyone is going to beable to receive that.
Not every space is going to besafe for that kind of processing
.
Able to receive that.
(17:51):
Not every space is going to besafe for that kind of processing
.
When we can have that space andthe scabs finally come off and
when there is a scar, that'swhen we can share our story more
publicly and with people whomay not respond in the way that
we would want, and that's okay.
I love this framework.
It gives us a really great gameplan for what to do when we're
(18:14):
in the moment of sexuallystruggling and then a little bit
afterwards, when we have thechance to process it or we're in
a safe space.
And then at what point can webe more public about it?
Henry, you help guys at HazardMaterial figure out how to
relate to other communitymembers all the time.
What are some situations wherethis framework of scratches,
(18:37):
scabs and scars is reallyhelpful?
Speaker 2 (18:39):
It's very helpful in the scratch phase.
That is probably where amajority of the issues occur.
A majority of the issues occuryou find someone that's
available to talk and you sharetoo much.
They're not a trustedindividual, but they're
available.
And then it spirals out ofcontrol and there's so many men
(19:01):
that were like, oh, this washappening and I didn't need to
hear that because this was goingon with me.
And there's not that mutualconcern necessarily.
It's just someone that'savailable and it can spiral.
And there have been men thatthought they were being
(19:22):
vulnerable, sharing those things, that ended up acting out with
other men in the community andthey've had to be removed.
And that's not a permanentthing, but it's not something
that we enjoy doing, but we doit for a reason.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Cause we want this to be a safe place.
We want husband material to belike that hospital where you can
bring your surface levelstruggles or your deep wounds
and find a place to receivecuriosity, compassion and
connection.
One of the most popular ways formen in our community to be
(20:01):
vulnerable and connect with eachother is by joining a triad,
which is a student-led smallgroup as part of Husband
Material Academy.
We currently have 32 of thesegroups.
Of course, you can form yourown groups outside of that, but
those are the ones that weoversee and support, and the
level of support and the levelof commitment in a group and in
a place to be vulnerable tendsto be higher when there's more
(20:23):
investment.
So that's one of the reasonswhy joining Husband Material
Academy or joining a privatesmall group can lead to higher
quality friendships wherethere's more training, there's
more commitment, there's moresafety involved, and so when
you're being vulnerable, youwant to consider how safe is the
space that I'm in and what'sthe level of commitment required
(20:44):
to be here, because that'sgoing to determine what kind of
a response you can expect toreceive.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
And then there's a place to share the healing that
we've received.
Being Christian-based, we'retalking about God's faithfulness
, of how he's helped us overcomethis, and you look in Scripture
(21:10):
and there are so many differentways God healed people.
But being able to be faithfulto talk about that that I
received this healing is hugeand that this is how it happened
for me.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
I love that the Husband Material community is a
place to tell your story, askquestions, make friends and
celebrate wins.
So often we are so focused onconfessing all of our mistakes.
At Husband Material, we areequally focused on confessing
(21:46):
our growth, our healing and theredemption that's unfolding in
our lives.
I feel so privileged to have afront row seat to what God is
doing in your life, henry, andfor all of you guys who have
listened to this podcast andreceived a lot of help and
insight.
Thank you for being part ofthis.
And if you would like coachingfrom Henry, our newest certified
(22:10):
husband material coach, henry,where should they go?
Speaker 2 (22:13):
They can just go to henrybrownnet and it will take
them to my booking link and then, hopefully later I'll have a
website that explains a littlemore.
Awesome, henry, what is yourfavorite?
Speaker 1 (22:24):
thing about freedom from porn.
Awesome, Henry.
What is your favorite thingabout freedom from porn?
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Just being able to feel I don't just have to be
numb anymore.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
I love that.
That goes all the way back tothe story of how your parents
responded to your feelings.
Yeah, it does.
At the risk of being reallytrite, feel it to heal it.
It's tweetable.
It's tweetable.
There's truth in that, henry.
Thank you so much for beingwith us.
I'm going to say another phrasethat for some of you may sound
cheesy or it may soundrepetitive, but it's true.
Always remember you are God'sbeloved son and you, he, is
(23:05):
well-pleased.
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