March 31, 2025 • 38 mins
How can men protect women instead of complying with sexism and abuse? Dr. Andrew Bauman shares the results of his research with over 2,800 Christian women, and what men need to hear in order to advocate for change in our churches and communities.
Dr. Andrew J. Bauman is the founder and director of the Christian Counseling Center: For Sexual Health & Trauma (CCC) and has served as a mental health counselor. Also formerly a pastor, Andrew now works with men and women to bring healing and wholeness to their sexual and spiritual lives.
Buy Andrew's books (paid links):
- Safe Church
- How Not To Be An *SS
- The Sexually Healthy Man
- The Psychology Of Porn
- Stumbling Toward Wholeness
Learn more about Andrew's 4-day men's workshops here.
Connect with Andrew at andrewjbauman.com.
Also mentioned in this episode:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Hey man, thank you forlistening to part two of this
(00:22):
interview with Andrew Bauman,where we talk about why women do
not feel safe in church, whatwe as men can do to protect them
and ultimately, re-examiningsome important teachings in the
Bible, some theological ideasand seeing how Jesus is so
(00:44):
different than what we see inour churches today.
Andrew is an author, therapist,husband and leader who has done
his own work around sexism andabuse, and he has listened to
thousands of women telling theirstories, and he's presenting
this in a way that's difficultto hear and also absolutely
(01:08):
necessary.
No matter what your personalbeliefs are about men and women,
I really think we all havesomething to learn from Andrew.
Enjoy the episode.
Welcome back for part two ofour conversation with Andrew
Bauman, who is the author ofSafe Church how to Guard Against
Sexism and Abuse in ChristianCommunities.
Welcome back.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Andrew, yeah, thank you, glad to be here, glad to
talk about this as this is.
Yeah, this is near and dear tomy heart in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Why did you start reading and writing about sexism
and abuse in the church?
Speaker 2 (01:43):
about sexism and abuse in the church.
Yeah, I mean, it goes back tomy origin story.
So my father was a pastor, evenprominent evangelical leader.
They wanted him to run forpolitical office and yet he also
had a secret sexual life,cheating on my mom for
20-something years.
And basically somebody foundout who he was and kind of
threatened you know blackmailedhim.
(02:05):
So he stole $100,000 from theconservative college that he was
the vice president of and paidoff the blackmailer and got
caught stealing the money.
You know, it was just crazy.
So my whole life blows up andI'm seven years old, you know I
have no idea, obviously, what'sgoing on.
But out of that, you know, mydad tries to get help and
(02:28):
eventually my mom leaves withthree kids in tow and I became
an orphan.
My mother goes numb because ofthe abuse and because of the
trauma in her own life anddoesn't get the proper help that
she needs to recover.
And then that slowly set me upfor kind of my own addictive
patterns, around 12, 13 yearsold, becoming a porn user myself
(02:51):
and then becoming a pastor.
And so I begin to mix kind ofmy objectifying of women with
degrading views of oppressivetheology and they go in a really
weird sense, well together,which is not good, and so that
(03:11):
was kind of the beginning of mywork.
And then kind of realizing, asI'm in ministry, still using
dabbling in pornography, likeslowly realizing this ministry
is not, I can't be as honest asI want to be being a pastor,
like there's more for me, andthen realizing, okay, I'm going
to.
You know, so I was only apastor for a year, year and a
(03:31):
half, until I began to changedirections to become a therapist
and then began to really facemyself, tell the truth about my
story and do the hard work ofredemptive suffering.
So that's facing my deepestshame, facing my fears,
confronting my story and my ownstory as a perpetrator.
(03:55):
And so that was kind of theorigin of the why, and I
dedicated this book to my momjust because of what she had to
suffer.
Dedicated this book to my momjust because of what she had to
suffer and the church's kind ofscarlet letter that was put on
her of being a single mom ofthree kids, and so that was kind
of the behind the scenes.
(04:17):
And yet in 2018, I read a studycalled the Elephant in the
Valley, which studied sexism inSilicon Valley, which is a
male-dominated industry and thatgot me thinking.
Well, I wonder what that's likein another male-dominated
industry.
And that got me thinking well,I wonder what that's like in
another male-dominated industrythat I know quite well the
church and so that was kind ofthe beginning of the study for
me, and so I developed aquestionnaire and got over 2,800
women who worked in the churchto fill out the questionnaire
(04:41):
and then did in-depth interviewsand I really dove in for the
last five years in this know,did in-depth interviews and I'm
really dove in for the last fiveyears in this topic, ended up
doing my dissertation on thistopic, then turned it into to a
book to make it actuallyenjoyable to read versus just
terrible to read as mydissertation.
So, yeah, so that was kind ofthe you know, setting me on the
(05:02):
path of justice and learningadvocacy over these past, you
know, 20 years, but then reallydeepening it with this study.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
What did your study reveal to you?
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Yeah.
So there was a lot of big kindof wow moments.
One of those was 82% of thewomen believe that sexism plays
a role in their church.
So it's in what is sexism?
Just simply prejudice,discrimination, stereotyping
because of someone's sex.
And so 82% of women experiencethat and believe it played a
(05:38):
role in their church.
So I heard so many justhorrific stories.
This one woman we changed alltheir names, but we'll call her
Hannah she was on her churchstaff and she was a worship
leader.
And she heard all the malechurch staff joking about how to
increase church attendance andthey said well, why don't we
require women to wear whitet-shirts to get baptized?
(06:00):
That was the joke, oh mygoodness.
And so what do you think Hannahfelt about her own body in the
midst of that Right Quote,unquote joke?
Rose shared that she felt thechurch placed responsibility on
women for having bodies ratherthan holding men accountable for
(06:21):
their perverse thoughts.
So she felt shamed for having afemale body.
Unfair responsibility wasplaced on her by men in
leadership.
Kelly said I have a big buttdirect quote.
So I would always wear hugeskirts to cover my butt because
I didn't want men to lust afterme.
Beth went on to say women couldnot wear tank tops.
(06:44):
I remember working at VacationBible School and it was 9,000
degrees in this little country,bumpkin church, and someone said
she cannot be on stage.
Look, she has a sleevelessshirt on.
So many women shared differentforms of discrimination because
of their bodies.
Different forms ofdiscrimination because of their
(07:09):
bodies because, trying to changemale arousal rather than
addressing the men, they made itthe women's issue.
And so some of the other bigdiscoveries 62% said they would
not be surprised if they heard asexist joke in church.
So I remember growing up andhearing these jokes all the time
and they're just jokes.
And yet as women confrontedthese jokes, they were just told
(07:30):
hey, just get used to it.
One woman said sexist jokesthat were very inappropriate and
sexual were so common.
When I asked the male leadersif they would tell less, I was
told men will be men and if youwant to succeed in this male
profession, you better be okaywith it.
So, even if women wouldconfront the joking.
And yet research of Dr ThomasFord from Western North Carolina
(07:55):
, western Carolina University.
He wrote a study called MoreThan Just a Joke and what he
found was sexist humor increasestolerance of discrimination.
In other words, men who tellthese jokes are more likely to
accept them or participate inoutright sexism towards women.
(08:15):
And he also found this sexisthumor act as a releaser of
prejudice for men who alreadyhave antagonistic attitudes
towards women.
So it actually shares whatthese pastors already believe
about women.
They already have.
(08:36):
Sexist humor acts as a releaser, so it's a balloon right.
So instead of popping it, theyjust slowly let it out, which
speaks to who they are.
This is what it means of.
It's just a joke.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
We're using this to actually release prejudice
against women While being ableto deny responsibility and
accountability by saying bingoit's a woman's issue, she just
needs to be more okay with it.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
It's just a joke.
Go, it's a woman's issue, shejust needs to be more okay with
it.
It's just a joke.
Some of the other horrificstatistics.
Big findings 35.1% of womenreported suffering from sexual
harassment or some form ofsexual misconduct while serving
in ministry, or they answered itwas complicated.
35.1%.
So this is wild.
So these aren't just women.
(09:24):
5.1%.
So this is wild.
So these aren't just women.
Right, I pulled off the streetwith 16% of them had worked 25
years or longer in the church.
25% had worked 16 years orlonger.
So these are women on the frontlines of ministry that are
saying excuse me, our churchesare not safe for me, right, and
(09:45):
87% of churches are male led.
So we've got a male problem.
We've got an issue here, right,we've got to deal with, we've
got to confront.
And so, as far as stories ofsexual abuse, you know, the one
that stood out to me was Rebeccaand she shared.
As a teenager.
They had to wear full modestybathing suits, so this was full
(10:08):
all the way up to the neck, downto the wrists, covered
everything.
On hot summer days at the lake,her and her sisters would be
made to wear these bathing suitsand they would go to the lake
and their dad's friend wouldcome with them and the dad's
friend would tell the dad, I amso thankful that you make your
daughters wear these things so Idon't have to struggle with
(10:30):
lust when I come to the, to thelake, thank you, thank you for
protecting, and so she would beapplauded Well done.
Well, you're protecting yourbrothers in Christ, well done.
That's the way the narrativewas posed.
What, if it was posed?
Excuse me, you potentially havea pedophile coming to the lake
(10:52):
with you who is sexualizing yourteenage girls, your 13-year-old
girls.
Who's confronting that man andhis pornographic mindset?
Rather, we're going to make itabout applauding brothers in
Christ for protecting modestywhen you're making these girls
(11:13):
wear these full, you know,onesie bathing suits.
But who's calling out, who'sconfronting the actual
perversion?
Nobody did, and so here she is,30 years later, still bearing
the scars of an assiduous formof sexual abuse that she was
(11:38):
actually applauded for.
No wonder why so many womenturn on their own bodies.
No wonder why so many eatingdisorders.
Right Like, yes, but so much ofit comes from what we're doing,
what men in power are doing, toactually perpetrate abuse.
(12:01):
So the final big stat was 77.9%of women felt like their
opportunity in ministry waslimited due to their gender.
So this is women that justwanted to be pastors, wanted to
do something for God, includingyour wife.
Yes, exactly.
Gail said she was kept frombeing hired as a worship leader,
(12:24):
although she'd been filling infor over a year, had a degree in
music and a decade ofexperience.
She couldn't be hired becauseshe was a woman.
Direct quote even thoughleadership agreed I was doing an
exemplary job and I wasextremely qualified.
The man hired in my place was afar less capable musician, far
(12:44):
less capable administrator and afar less capable music director
, but he had a penis Like thisis what we're talking about.
Another woman said I got adivinity degree from Harvard,
but I couldn't find a church inmy denomination that would hire
me, so I changed denominationsto try to find a job.
(13:06):
These are the stories, andthese are the heartbreaking
stories that are in this bookthat need to.
They call us to more.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
And I know many of us have different theologies or
different perspectives aboutwomen in ministry.
What are some of the biblicaltexts and teachings we really
need to re-examine?
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Yeah, so this is what I believed, right, growing up
in the Southern Baptist Church.
And it's like if you don'tbelieve what the Bible says,
you're going to hell.
And what I'm saying is actuallyno, let's believe what the
Bible says, but how we'veinterpreted them is not correct,
is not actually what they say?
We have taken these texts andwe've put in our own misogyny,
(13:52):
our own way of engaging them,and it's not good, not healthy.
And so some of the classictexts, the problematic texts
that I address in the book 1Corinthians 14, 34, that I
address in the book 1Corinthians 14, 34, women should
be silent in churches, forthey're not permitted to speak
or submit themselves.
As the law says, if they wantto learn something, they should
go ask their husbands.
(14:12):
It's disgraceful for a woman tospeak in church.
And then number two is 1Timothy 2, 11 through 12.
A woman should learn quietly,with full submission.
I do not allow a woman to teachor have authority over a man.
Instead, she should remainquiet.
So when you read those books, Imean those passages like oh
well, that's pretty clear.
And yet, unfortunately, it'snot clear at all.
(14:35):
So dive into some of these texts.
Right?
So, paul, he talks about theword Heshua.
Okay, heshua, it's translatedinto quiet, right?
Heshua doesn't mean quiet,that's a problem.
Heshua actually means stillness.
Okay, and Sarah Bessie writesthe word quietly here in Timothy
(14:59):
.
Isn't actually silence, asmentioned in Corinthians.
No, the Greek word meansstillness More along the lines
of peacefulness or minding one'sown business.
It's not about talking versusnot talking.
It's about learning in a stillway, far from meddling in
people's affairs.
That changes the verse entirely.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
Yeah, women learn to be, still Learn to be still,
it's about not gossiping,correct, not about not speaking.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Correct and when you take it in to consideration of
the patriarchal culture, thatJesus was in right and it's
radical right, like some of theJewish laws, some of the old.
The Greek texts of women hatred, right and then plop the early
church into the early church wasso pro-women that women were
(15:57):
excited.
They were.
You know.
When you look at what Paultalks about with women, I mean
it's wild.
In Romans 16, priscilla isoutstanding among the apostles.
Prominent roles Anna, who wasnamed a prophet in Luke 2.36,.
Right Philip had four daughterswho prophesied in Acts 21.
Phoebe was a deacon in Romans16.1.
(16:20):
Juno was outstanding in Romans16.7.
Like, women are so vital in theearly church and the success of
the church and leading it right.
Jesus tells you know, revealshimself for the first time the
woman at the well right, maryMagdalene, literally the most
important part of the gospel,the resurrection of Christ.
(16:42):
He shows to Mary Magdalene gotell the world Like there's
women preachers.
This is how we know the gospelright, the way Jesus engages the
woman, the alabaster jar.
We see Jesus.
I think Jesus should be ourguide in how we should engage
women.
That seems wise, instead oftaking a few of these scriptures
and misinterpreting them.
(17:03):
So the word authoritarian theorigin of this word relates to
abusing or misusing authority.
So when we read it like thatright, I do not permit a woman
to teach or have authority overa man.
I do not want a woman to abusehave authority over a man.
I do not want a woman to abuseher authority over a man.
(17:24):
So that actually implies womenhave authority.
And yet the way we'veinterpreted it, the way it's
been written, actually isopposite.
Right, when he says go and talkto your husbands about it,
that's actually because in theJewish world you weren't allowed
(17:46):
to talk to women in public.
That was a law.
Right, you had to go.
And so they're saying no, as amutual partner, go and face your
husband and talk about it.
Like, go with him.
Right.
And this is where we then.
What I asked for is consistencyand interpretation, because if
(18:07):
you misinterpret those scriptureverses, then you've got a
problem with a myriad of otherverses.
Right, luke 24, 9, john 4, 39,judges 5, 7, exodus 15, 20,
esther 7, 3.
You've got to contend with allthese other verses then where
women do have power.
Or what about Acts 2, 18?
(18:29):
I will pour out my spirit.
Both men and women willprophesy, or there's no Greek or
Jew, slave or free, male orfemale.
Since we are all one in Christ,we are one.
God's Spirit is equally upon us.
You know, equality is not aliberal curse word, it's a
longing of our Creator, god, andI truly believe that.
(18:52):
And what I think has happened iswe've misinterpreted some
scripture verses and we've madeit the norm, which is mixed in
with our own misogyny and ourown pornographic way of thinking
, to make women less than andfor us to retain control.
And it's gross.
But yet it's not thatsurprising when I think about
(19:12):
how scripture has been used,when you think about the
horrific justification ofslavery, right when verses were
slaves obey your earthly masters, right were used to perpetrate
horrific abuse, so much so theslave Bible in 1807, you know
(19:33):
what they did?
They just removed the story ofExodus.
They just took it out.
They just took it out, goodness.
They just took it out becausethey did not want them to read a
story of an enslaved peoplereclaiming their power that
could inspire black people tobreak free from oppressive
(19:54):
systems.
So that's to me.
What's happening here is we'veweaponized scripture to continue
to retain power.
I think a lot of men are afraid.
Well then, women will end updoing to us what we've done to
them.
I'm not advocating for anotheroppressive system.
Oh, now it's time for women tojust run the show.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
No, I'm advocating for equality and mutuality
because we both bear God's image.
I love the way you describe howJesus did that.
What?
Speaker 2 (20:33):
did he show us about how to relate to women and how
to protect women?
Yeah, you look at what he saidin Luke 4.18, which was his
mission and purpose To set thecaptives and the prisoners of
society free under an oppressiveRoman rule.
Like, okay, that's women.
That's, women are theoppressive class in that culture
.
You know St Augustine.
(20:53):
You know he was the first oneto separate a woman's
non-gendered soul and her sexualbody, her sexual body, sinful.
So literally women are in asense split right from from
Augustine and it believes likethese.
These are early.
You know Thomas Aquinas women'sbodies are biologically and
(21:14):
physically defectives, he claimsthey're inferior in mind, body
and and will and must besubjected to male rule.
You have all these churchfathers, like these founding
fathers, that write somehorrific things about women.
Right, just horrific.
And it's like, oh my gosh, somuch of our early thinking in
(21:36):
the early church was built onthe subjugation of women.
No wonder why we'reinterpreting scripture with this
gross lens.
It's not a knock against God.
I'm reminded of the legend DrDiane Laneberg who says people
are sacred, created in the imageof God.
Systems are not.
(21:56):
They are only worth the peoplein them, in the people they
serve and people are to betreated, whether one or many,
the way Jesus Christ treatedpeople.
So I speak out against thechurch, not because I'm mad at
the church, not because I hatethe church, but because I love
it.
We have to speak truth.
(22:18):
People are sacred, systems arenot, and so we've got to address
this.
Because women are dying, womenare being annihilated,
objectified, subjected to somuch unprocessed stuff and male
leaders, and we have to addressit.
We have to confront this all tocommon norm.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
What are some of the most damaging theologies that we
need to avoid?
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Yeah, so it comes out of when we misread scripture,
right, and we have, of course,these damaging theological
understandings, these damagingscriptural understandings.
Of course it's going to lead toproblematic theologies and
problematic teachings when wemisinterpret scripture.
So I agree with author KevinGarcia who says bad theology
kills, right.
So some of the theologies andteachings that I cover in the
book are submission and headship, authority, grace and
(23:15):
forgiveness, modesty, purity andmarriage and divorce.
And so you know, when I'mlooking at the term headship and
how that's been abused, thatcomes from Genesis 2.
The word ezer, the Hebrew,originally translated to the
word helper and we think of itkind of almost like the helpmate
(23:36):
, think of it as like hamburgerhelper, and yet that's not what
it means at all.
Ezer is such a different word,it's a powerful word.
So there's nothing about thisword.
That means subordination,Originally derived from phrases
to rescue or to save or to bestrong.
(23:57):
The word ezer appears 21 timesin the Old Testament.
Twice it refers to women.
Three times it refers to bestrong.
The word Ezra appears 21 timesin the Old Testament.
Twice it refers to women.
Three times it refers to peoplehelping or failing to help in
life-threatening situations and16 times it refers to God as our
helper and in eight instancesit actually means Savior.
How different is that thanhelpmate, right?
(24:21):
The word ezer is directlyfollowed by conegdo, which means
in front of him orcorresponding to him like a
mirror image.
It has nothing to do withputting another person's lives
or goals ahead of your own.
It's not about subordination.
Helpmate literally would bebetter translated as Savior, Wow
(24:45):
.
And yet when I think about mymarriage and what my wife calls
me to so many times, she savesme from my own bullshit.
She saves me how many times Iremember a client literally
would read scripture over hiswife so she'd submit to his
perverse sexual fetish, Submitto me, woman.
(25:12):
You know, I think about whenChristy and I were dating and I
was a pastor and I introducedher to my boss and my pastor, my
friend, and he pulled me aside.
He said, Andrew, like don't youwant more of a helpmate,
Somebody that will support youin your goals?
Because he knew I had big goalsand dreams and I thought about
it.
I was like no, actually I don't, I want a woman that'll take me
(25:37):
on.
I knew enough of my darkness andmy Enneagram eightness that I
could dominate and steamrollsomebody and I needed a strong
woman that could call me on mycrap and that would face me and
take me on.
And that, to me, is what apartner is Right Somebody that
(25:58):
could run fast.
And so my wife, Dr ChristyBauman, like she's a beast and
you should have her on.
Yeah, I think you're right,she's a beast, and this is what
partnership is.
This is what like.
That's what that means.
I want an equal, because I wantto be inspired.
I want to inspire her.
I want a partner who can run asfast as I do, Wow.
(26:21):
And yet we've we've interpretedit as something like doormat or
something Right?
Speaker 1 (26:25):
Instead of a powerful person who can make a big
difference in our lives.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Correct, that's just.
You know, submission, headship,grace and forgiveness.
We've learned to weaponizegrace and forgiveness.
You know a reminder ofKristen's response.
She said after my husband.
Kristen's response she saidafter my husband was abusive and
addicted to porn, I was told toforgive that my anger would
cause him to do more porn.
So I shouldn't get angry that Iwas a Christian for longer, so
(26:54):
I should set the better example.
Direct quote Like she goes toher pastor, he tells her.
Like she goes to her pastor, hetells her kill her humanity,
Cut off what she's feeling right, Completely, spiritually,
bypasses everything when reallyshe should not only feel angry,
(27:15):
she should feel rage, she shouldfeel betrayal, heartbreak,
grief.
But rather than focusing on theabuser and what he did, his
abuse, they weaponizedforgiveness.
And this is what happens allthe time.
They pressure the abuser I meanthe abused to forgive quickly,
(27:35):
right, Without actual properrepentance from the abuser.
Right.
They misquote Bible verses tomanipulate into spiritual
bypassing.
They make it more about the actof doing forgiveness, like
getting, almost, like aspiritual point, rather than
actually feeling and being with.
(27:57):
Moving on is the highestpriority.
It's a transaction, Exactly,Exactly, Exactly.
And that's what weaponizingforgiveness is.
And it's a call to cheap grace.
It's a cheap form of grace, asBonhoeffer wrote, and so that's
what we're talking about, whichis just gross and hard.
Modesty purity that's such acommon one.
(28:21):
I'm reminded by this tweet fromthis pastor in Utah.
He wrote dear ladies, there'sno reason whatsoever for you to
post pictures of yourself in lowcut shirts, bikinis, bras,
underwear, anything ever.
Not to show your weight lossjourney, not to show your
newborn baby, not to documentyour birth story?
Signed your brothers, baby.
(28:43):
Not to document your birthstory?
Signed your brothers.
And then the comedian DustinNickerson responded dear donuts,
there's no reason whatsoeverfor you to be so delicious.
You look so good, you smell sogood, you taste better than
anything ever.
Me eating eight of you andhaving no self-control is on you
for just being the way you are.
My character flaws are yourfault.
(29:03):
Signed your brothers.
I just love that response.
Right, Blaming donuts.
And yet how much is that?
Is that what that pastor wassaying?
He was telling on themselvesthat he has a pornographic
mindset, and yet I was that guytoo.
Like, I get it Right.
It reminds me of Adam and Evein Genesis 3.12.
(29:24):
Right, the woman you gave medid this.
Right, it's like we want toblame women.
We want to blame their bodies,their lack of modesty, and yet
look at the statistics of sexualabuse.
When women are fully veiled, itdoesn't matter, it doesn't
matter, right.
And when you actually look atscripture, modesty has nothing
(29:49):
to do with what we're wearing.
That is an Americaninterpretation.
It has to do with flauntingyour wealth and the women in the
early church right that we'rewearing fancy dresses and you
know fancy jewelry and fancyhairstyles and they're flaunting
it.
That's what he's Paul's talkingabout.
Nothing to do but our modernsexualized obsession and, you
(30:13):
know, pornographic mindset likethat's what we're putting into
the text.
It's insane.
So there's just a few of thehighlights of kind of how
problematic theologies andteachings come out of
problematic misinterpretationsof scripture.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
Absolutely.
What role can we as men play inadvocating for women and
protecting women, especially inchurch?
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Yeah, well, if 87% of men are leaders, it's like okay
, we've got to use our power forgood.
We've got to use our place asdeacons, as leaders in the
church to advocate for women, toreally look deeply into issues
of trauma and abuse, tounderstand you have to do your
(31:02):
own internal work.
You can't lead others where youhaven't gone yourself, right.
So if you want to startimplementing church policies and
safeguards, it's like okay,what?
What about you?
What have you done inside ofyourself?
Right, are you at peace withyour own sexism, your own abuse,
your own issues?
Right, and then we can begin tostart the conversation.
(31:24):
Right.
Then we can begin to usetrusted resources.
We can begin to trust ourbodies.
We can begin to advocate forwomen.
We can do the basic stuff ofyearly abuse prevention,
training and criminal backgroundchecks and becoming familiar
with policies and procedures,open dialogue sessions and what
I heard from women over and over.
(31:45):
I just wanted representation.
I just wanted another woman atthe table.
I just wanted to.
I didn't want to be alone inthis right.
One woman shared about she wassexually abused by a church
leader and she goes to herpastor and he calls it sex and
he blames her for seducing thismarried man because she was 18
(32:06):
and he was in his 40s.
And finally, I guess, in onemeeting, the pastor's wife is in
the meeting and she says wait aminute, I don't know if we
should call this sex.
This sounds more like rape.
And she was like, oh, just onewoman in the room and she felt
so seen, and yet they had nounderstanding of power dynamics
(32:29):
that this leader in the church,who also worked at their private
Christian school, who was ascience teacher, seduced, you
know, this young teenage girlwho had just become an adult,
you know, left the high schoolor whatever, and but like, oh my
gosh, this is horrific, yeah,and this is so normalized.
So let's have more diversity inleadership, let's have more
(32:51):
women at the table, let's not beafraid to share power.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
What are some specific ways that churches can
better handle reports of abuseor misconduct?
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Yeah, we can't be quiet.
So when's the last time youheard a sermon about domestic
violence?
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Never.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
One out of four women will have experience with that.
When's the last sermon youheard about sexual abuse?
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Never.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
One out of three women will experience sexual
abuse and men experience sexualabuse.
The stats are not as common.
It happens all the time.
So are we starting theconversation?
Are we at least beginning?
And if your church isn't, yes,buy this book, share it with
your pastor If he's not willing.
(33:38):
We've got to do somethingdifferent.
We've got to begin to takesteps towards cultivating safety
.
I know the organization calledGrace, godly Response to Abuse
in Christian Communities.
They do abuse preventiontrainings to Christian
communities.
It's like we've got to begin tocreate healthier institutions
(33:59):
that represent Christ more fully, rather than our own
unprocessed wounds.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
And protecting those who have been harmed, rather
than protecting the image of thechurch.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
Bingo.
So many churches want toprotect the institution.
Well, this would look bad, thiswould look bad on us and then
our giving would go down.
We don't want to hurt themission, yep, and it's so gross,
it's so wrong.
We would rather protect theimage rather than the actual
(34:39):
image.
Bearer of God.
How is that possible?
And yet that's so normal.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
It's fear and shame instead of love.
I mean, andrew, this is heavy,this is difficult to hear, it's
difficult to focus on.
What would you say to a manwho's having trouble digesting
some of this?
Speaker 2 (35:03):
We can be part of the change.
Eating an elephant, one pieceat a time, right.
So what can you do?
What can you do to become anhonest man?
What can you do to become anauthentic man who advocates for
women?
Do to become an authentic manwho advocates for women.
(35:25):
What can you do to begin toself-reflect and realize your
experience might not beeverybody else's experience.
Begin to look out of the windowof someone else's experience.
Begin to listen to women.
I listened to 2,800 of them.
They told me stuff I didn'twant to know.
I listened to 2,800 of them.
They told me stuff I didn'twant to know.
I'm not proud of that, but Ilearned a lot because we need to
(35:48):
begin to listen to women andwhat they're telling us.
But without power, if they'rejust being told, oh, it's just a
joke, who's going to begin tochange?
This is a man's work, becausewe're the one perpetrating the
harm and the abuse.
So I say like, okay, lick yourwounds and let's go.
(36:09):
Like, let's care for thatlittle boy Heal.
Because what does it mean forhusbands to lay down your life
to your wife, as Christ did forthe church?
We are called to death.
So stop being defensive, stopbeing reactive.
Stop being oh, you know you'rehurting me.
It's just like, oh my gosh,like come on, like I get it, but
(36:31):
that's actually part of yourdefensiveness that's causing you
to not actually go to actionLike it's time.
It's time that we step into ourstrength and actually begin to
advocate rather than abuse.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
Resurrection only comes after a death.
Yes, so thank you for leadingthe way as a man who's willing
to die to some of these patternsthat were handed down to you.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
Exactly, yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
You're welcome, Andrew.
What gives you hope?
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Yeah, I mean.
It's obviously the hundreds ofmen that'll go through our
program this year that arefighting for healthier
masculinity, the women that arecontinuing to speak even though
they're being maligned anddismissed.
It's like okay, people aren'tgiving up.
If I have to feel the weight ofthis, I didn't have to live it.
(37:40):
I'm a white man who'sarticulate.
I've always been in seats ofpower.
It's like I think I can bearthis for a little bit.
Like I'm not.
I haven't lived it my wholelife Like these women have.
They're much stronger than I am.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
It's really eyeopening and I would encourage
you guys to get a copy of safechurch.
You can find it at the link inthe show notes.
Andrew, thank you so much fortaking a stand.
Thanks for having me, gentlemen, always remember you are God's
(38:20):
beloved son and you, he is wellpleased.
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Hey man, thank you forlistening to part two of this
(00:22):
interview with Andrew Bauman,where we talk about why women do
not feel safe in church, whatwe as men can do to protect them
and ultimately, re-examiningsome important teachings in the
Bible, some theological ideasand seeing how Jesus is so
(00:44):
different than what we see inour churches today.
Andrew is an author, therapist,husband and leader who has done
his own work around sexism andabuse, and he has listened to
thousands of women telling theirstories, and he's presenting
this in a way that's difficultto hear and also absolutely
(01:08):
necessary.
No matter what your personalbeliefs are about men and women,
I really think we all havesomething to learn from Andrew.
Enjoy the episode.
Welcome back for part two ofour conversation with Andrew
Bauman, who is the author ofSafe Church how to Guard Against
Sexism and Abuse in ChristianCommunities.
Welcome back.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Andrew, yeah, thank you, glad to be here, glad to
talk about this as this is.
Yeah, this is near and dear tomy heart in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Why did you start reading and writing about sexism
and abuse in the church?
Speaker 2 (01:43):
about sexism and abuse in the church.
Yeah, I mean, it goes back tomy origin story.
So my father was a pastor, evenprominent evangelical leader.
They wanted him to run forpolitical office and yet he also
had a secret sexual life,cheating on my mom for
20-something years.
And basically somebody foundout who he was and kind of
threatened you know blackmailedhim.
(02:05):
So he stole $100,000 from theconservative college that he was
the vice president of and paidoff the blackmailer and got
caught stealing the money.
You know, it was just crazy.
So my whole life blows up andI'm seven years old, you know I
have no idea, obviously, what'sgoing on.
But out of that, you know, mydad tries to get help and
(02:28):
eventually my mom leaves withthree kids in tow and I became
an orphan.
My mother goes numb because ofthe abuse and because of the
trauma in her own life anddoesn't get the proper help that
she needs to recover.
And then that slowly set me upfor kind of my own addictive
patterns, around 12, 13 yearsold, becoming a porn user myself
(02:51):
and then becoming a pastor.
And so I begin to mix kind ofmy objectifying of women with
degrading views of oppressivetheology and they go in a really
weird sense, well together,which is not good, and so that
(03:11):
was kind of the beginning of mywork.
And then kind of realizing, asI'm in ministry, still using
dabbling in pornography, likeslowly realizing this ministry
is not, I can't be as honest asI want to be being a pastor,
like there's more for me, andthen realizing, okay, I'm going
to.
You know, so I was only apastor for a year, year and a
(03:31):
half, until I began to changedirections to become a therapist
and then began to really facemyself, tell the truth about my
story and do the hard work ofredemptive suffering.
So that's facing my deepestshame, facing my fears,
confronting my story and my ownstory as a perpetrator.
(03:55):
And so that was kind of theorigin of the why, and I
dedicated this book to my momjust because of what she had to
suffer.
Dedicated this book to my momjust because of what she had to
suffer and the church's kind ofscarlet letter that was put on
her of being a single mom ofthree kids, and so that was kind
of the behind the scenes.
(04:17):
And yet in 2018, I read a studycalled the Elephant in the
Valley, which studied sexism inSilicon Valley, which is a
male-dominated industry and thatgot me thinking.
Well, I wonder what that's likein another male-dominated
industry.
And that got me thinking well,I wonder what that's like in
another male-dominated industrythat I know quite well the
church and so that was kind ofthe beginning of the study for
me, and so I developed aquestionnaire and got over 2,800
women who worked in the churchto fill out the questionnaire
(04:41):
and then did in-depth interviewsand I really dove in for the
last five years in this know,did in-depth interviews and I'm
really dove in for the last fiveyears in this topic, ended up
doing my dissertation on thistopic, then turned it into to a
book to make it actuallyenjoyable to read versus just
terrible to read as mydissertation.
So, yeah, so that was kind ofthe you know, setting me on the
(05:02):
path of justice and learningadvocacy over these past, you
know, 20 years, but then reallydeepening it with this study.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
What did your study reveal to you?
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Yeah.
So there was a lot of big kindof wow moments.
One of those was 82% of thewomen believe that sexism plays
a role in their church.
So it's in what is sexism?
Just simply prejudice,discrimination, stereotyping
because of someone's sex.
And so 82% of women experiencethat and believe it played a
(05:38):
role in their church.
So I heard so many justhorrific stories.
This one woman we changed alltheir names, but we'll call her
Hannah she was on her churchstaff and she was a worship
leader.
And she heard all the malechurch staff joking about how to
increase church attendance andthey said well, why don't we
require women to wear whitet-shirts to get baptized?
(06:00):
That was the joke, oh mygoodness.
And so what do you think Hannahfelt about her own body in the
midst of that Right Quote,unquote joke?
Rose shared that she felt thechurch placed responsibility on
women for having bodies ratherthan holding men accountable for
(06:21):
their perverse thoughts.
So she felt shamed for having afemale body.
Unfair responsibility wasplaced on her by men in
leadership.
Kelly said I have a big buttdirect quote.
So I would always wear hugeskirts to cover my butt because
I didn't want men to lust afterme.
Beth went on to say women couldnot wear tank tops.
(06:44):
I remember working at VacationBible School and it was 9,000
degrees in this little country,bumpkin church, and someone said
she cannot be on stage.
Look, she has a sleevelessshirt on.
So many women shared differentforms of discrimination because
of their bodies.
Different forms ofdiscrimination because of their
(07:09):
bodies because, trying to changemale arousal rather than
addressing the men, they made itthe women's issue.
And so some of the other bigdiscoveries 62% said they would
not be surprised if they heard asexist joke in church.
So I remember growing up andhearing these jokes all the time
and they're just jokes.
And yet as women confrontedthese jokes, they were just told
(07:30):
hey, just get used to it.
One woman said sexist jokesthat were very inappropriate and
sexual were so common.
When I asked the male leadersif they would tell less, I was
told men will be men and if youwant to succeed in this male
profession, you better be okaywith it.
So, even if women wouldconfront the joking.
And yet research of Dr ThomasFord from Western North Carolina
(07:55):
, western Carolina University.
He wrote a study called MoreThan Just a Joke and what he
found was sexist humor increasestolerance of discrimination.
In other words, men who tellthese jokes are more likely to
accept them or participate inoutright sexism towards women.
(08:15):
And he also found this sexisthumor act as a releaser of
prejudice for men who alreadyhave antagonistic attitudes
towards women.
So it actually shares whatthese pastors already believe
about women.
They already have.
(08:36):
Sexist humor acts as a releaser, so it's a balloon right.
So instead of popping it, theyjust slowly let it out, which
speaks to who they are.
This is what it means of.
It's just a joke.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
We're using this to actually release prejudice
against women While being ableto deny responsibility and
accountability by saying bingoit's a woman's issue, she just
needs to be more okay with it.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
It's just a joke.
Go, it's a woman's issue, shejust needs to be more okay with
it.
It's just a joke.
Some of the other horrificstatistics.
Big findings 35.1% of womenreported suffering from sexual
harassment or some form ofsexual misconduct while serving
in ministry, or they answered itwas complicated.
35.1%.
So this is wild.
So these aren't just women.
(09:24):
5.1%.
So this is wild.
So these aren't just women.
Right, I pulled off the streetwith 16% of them had worked 25
years or longer in the church.
25% had worked 16 years orlonger.
So these are women on the frontlines of ministry that are
saying excuse me, our churchesare not safe for me, right, and
(09:45):
87% of churches are male led.
So we've got a male problem.
We've got an issue here, right,we've got to deal with, we've
got to confront.
And so, as far as stories ofsexual abuse, you know, the one
that stood out to me was Rebeccaand she shared.
As a teenager.
They had to wear full modestybathing suits, so this was full
(10:08):
all the way up to the neck, downto the wrists, covered
everything.
On hot summer days at the lake,her and her sisters would be
made to wear these bathing suitsand they would go to the lake
and their dad's friend wouldcome with them and the dad's
friend would tell the dad, I amso thankful that you make your
daughters wear these things so Idon't have to struggle with
(10:30):
lust when I come to the, to thelake, thank you, thank you for
protecting, and so she would beapplauded Well done.
Well, you're protecting yourbrothers in Christ, well done.
That's the way the narrativewas posed.
What, if it was posed?
Excuse me, you potentially havea pedophile coming to the lake
(10:52):
with you who is sexualizing yourteenage girls, your 13-year-old
girls.
Who's confronting that man andhis pornographic mindset?
Rather, we're going to make itabout applauding brothers in
Christ for protecting modestywhen you're making these girls
(11:13):
wear these full, you know,onesie bathing suits.
But who's calling out, who'sconfronting the actual
perversion?
Nobody did, and so here she is,30 years later, still bearing
the scars of an assiduous formof sexual abuse that she was
(11:38):
actually applauded for.
No wonder why so many womenturn on their own bodies.
No wonder why so many eatingdisorders.
Right Like, yes, but so much ofit comes from what we're doing,
what men in power are doing, toactually perpetrate abuse.
(12:01):
So the final big stat was 77.9%of women felt like their
opportunity in ministry waslimited due to their gender.
So this is women that justwanted to be pastors, wanted to
do something for God, includingyour wife.
Yes, exactly.
Gail said she was kept frombeing hired as a worship leader,
(12:24):
although she'd been filling infor over a year, had a degree in
music and a decade ofexperience.
She couldn't be hired becauseshe was a woman.
Direct quote even thoughleadership agreed I was doing an
exemplary job and I wasextremely qualified.
The man hired in my place was afar less capable musician, far
(12:44):
less capable administrator and afar less capable music director
, but he had a penis Like thisis what we're talking about.
Another woman said I got adivinity degree from Harvard,
but I couldn't find a church inmy denomination that would hire
me, so I changed denominationsto try to find a job.
(13:06):
These are the stories, andthese are the heartbreaking
stories that are in this bookthat need to.
They call us to more.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
And I know many of us have different theologies or
different perspectives aboutwomen in ministry.
What are some of the biblicaltexts and teachings we really
need to re-examine?
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Yeah, so this is what I believed, right, growing up
in the Southern Baptist Church.
And it's like if you don'tbelieve what the Bible says,
you're going to hell.
And what I'm saying is actuallyno, let's believe what the
Bible says, but how we'veinterpreted them is not correct,
is not actually what they say?
We have taken these texts andwe've put in our own misogyny,
(13:52):
our own way of engaging them,and it's not good, not healthy.
And so some of the classictexts, the problematic texts
that I address in the book 1Corinthians 14, 34, that I
address in the book 1Corinthians 14, 34, women should
be silent in churches, forthey're not permitted to speak
or submit themselves.
As the law says, if they wantto learn something, they should
go ask their husbands.
(14:12):
It's disgraceful for a woman tospeak in church.
And then number two is 1Timothy 2, 11 through 12.
A woman should learn quietly,with full submission.
I do not allow a woman to teachor have authority over a man.
Instead, she should remainquiet.
So when you read those books, Imean those passages like oh
well, that's pretty clear.
And yet, unfortunately, it'snot clear at all.
(14:35):
So dive into some of these texts.
Right?
So, paul, he talks about theword Heshua.
Okay, heshua, it's translatedinto quiet, right?
Heshua doesn't mean quiet,that's a problem.
Heshua actually means stillness.
Okay, and Sarah Bessie writesthe word quietly here in Timothy
(14:59):
.
Isn't actually silence, asmentioned in Corinthians.
No, the Greek word meansstillness More along the lines
of peacefulness or minding one'sown business.
It's not about talking versusnot talking.
It's about learning in a stillway, far from meddling in
people's affairs.
That changes the verse entirely.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
Yeah, women learn to be, still Learn to be still,
it's about not gossiping,correct, not about not speaking.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Correct and when you take it in to consideration of
the patriarchal culture, thatJesus was in right and it's
radical right, like some of theJewish laws, some of the old.
The Greek texts of women hatred, right and then plop the early
church into the early church wasso pro-women that women were
(15:57):
excited.
They were.
You know.
When you look at what Paultalks about with women, I mean
it's wild.
In Romans 16, priscilla isoutstanding among the apostles.
Prominent roles Anna, who wasnamed a prophet in Luke 2.36,.
Right Philip had four daughterswho prophesied in Acts 21.
Phoebe was a deacon in Romans16.1.
(16:20):
Juno was outstanding in Romans16.7.
Like, women are so vital in theearly church and the success of
the church and leading it right.
Jesus tells you know, revealshimself for the first time the
woman at the well right, maryMagdalene, literally the most
important part of the gospel,the resurrection of Christ.
(16:42):
He shows to Mary Magdalene gotell the world Like there's
women preachers.
This is how we know the gospelright, the way Jesus engages the
woman, the alabaster jar.
We see Jesus.
I think Jesus should be ourguide in how we should engage
women.
That seems wise, instead oftaking a few of these scriptures
and misinterpreting them.
(17:03):
So the word authoritarian theorigin of this word relates to
abusing or misusing authority.
So when we read it like thatright, I do not permit a woman
to teach or have authority overa man.
I do not want a woman to abusehave authority over a man.
I do not want a woman to abuseher authority over a man.
(17:24):
So that actually implies womenhave authority.
And yet the way we'veinterpreted it, the way it's
been written, actually isopposite.
Right, when he says go and talkto your husbands about it,
that's actually because in theJewish world you weren't allowed
(17:46):
to talk to women in public.
That was a law.
Right, you had to go.
And so they're saying no, as amutual partner, go and face your
husband and talk about it.
Like, go with him.
Right.
And this is where we then.
What I asked for is consistencyand interpretation, because if
(18:07):
you misinterpret those scriptureverses, then you've got a
problem with a myriad of otherverses.
Right, luke 24, 9, john 4, 39,judges 5, 7, exodus 15, 20,
esther 7, 3.
You've got to contend with allthese other verses then where
women do have power.
Or what about Acts 2, 18?
(18:29):
I will pour out my spirit.
Both men and women willprophesy, or there's no Greek or
Jew, slave or free, male orfemale.
Since we are all one in Christ,we are one.
God's Spirit is equally upon us.
You know, equality is not aliberal curse word, it's a
longing of our Creator, god, andI truly believe that.
(18:52):
And what I think has happened iswe've misinterpreted some
scripture verses and we've madeit the norm, which is mixed in
with our own misogyny and ourown pornographic way of thinking
, to make women less than andfor us to retain control.
And it's gross.
But yet it's not thatsurprising when I think about
(19:12):
how scripture has been used,when you think about the
horrific justification ofslavery, right when verses were
slaves obey your earthly masters, right were used to perpetrate
horrific abuse, so much so theslave Bible in 1807, you know
(19:33):
what they did?
They just removed the story ofExodus.
They just took it out.
They just took it out, goodness.
They just took it out becausethey did not want them to read a
story of an enslaved peoplereclaiming their power that
could inspire black people tobreak free from oppressive
(19:54):
systems.
So that's to me.
What's happening here is we'veweaponized scripture to continue
to retain power.
I think a lot of men are afraid.
Well then, women will end updoing to us what we've done to
them.
I'm not advocating for anotheroppressive system.
Oh, now it's time for women tojust run the show.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
No, I'm advocating for equality and mutuality
because we both bear God's image.
I love the way you describe howJesus did that.
What?
Speaker 2 (20:33):
did he show us about how to relate to women and how
to protect women?
Yeah, you look at what he saidin Luke 4.18, which was his
mission and purpose To set thecaptives and the prisoners of
society free under an oppressiveRoman rule.
Like, okay, that's women.
That's, women are theoppressive class in that culture
.
You know St Augustine.
(20:53):
You know he was the first oneto separate a woman's
non-gendered soul and her sexualbody, her sexual body, sinful.
So literally women are in asense split right from from
Augustine and it believes likethese.
These are early.
You know Thomas Aquinas women'sbodies are biologically and
(21:14):
physically defectives, he claimsthey're inferior in mind, body
and and will and must besubjected to male rule.
You have all these churchfathers, like these founding
fathers, that write somehorrific things about women.
Right, just horrific.
And it's like, oh my gosh, somuch of our early thinking in
(21:36):
the early church was built onthe subjugation of women.
No wonder why we'reinterpreting scripture with this
gross lens.
It's not a knock against God.
I'm reminded of the legend DrDiane Laneberg who says people
are sacred, created in the imageof God.
Systems are not.
(21:56):
They are only worth the peoplein them, in the people they
serve and people are to betreated, whether one or many,
the way Jesus Christ treatedpeople.
So I speak out against thechurch, not because I'm mad at
the church, not because I hatethe church, but because I love
it.
We have to speak truth.
(22:18):
People are sacred, systems arenot, and so we've got to address
this.
Because women are dying, womenare being annihilated,
objectified, subjected to somuch unprocessed stuff and male
leaders, and we have to addressit.
We have to confront this all tocommon norm.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
What are some of the most damaging theologies that we
need to avoid?
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Yeah, so it comes out of when we misread scripture,
right, and we have, of course,these damaging theological
understandings, these damagingscriptural understandings.
Of course it's going to lead toproblematic theologies and
problematic teachings when wemisinterpret scripture.
So I agree with author KevinGarcia who says bad theology
kills, right.
So some of the theologies andteachings that I cover in the
book are submission and headship, authority, grace and
(23:15):
forgiveness, modesty, purity andmarriage and divorce.
And so you know, when I'mlooking at the term headship and
how that's been abused, thatcomes from Genesis 2.
The word ezer, the Hebrew,originally translated to the
word helper and we think of itkind of almost like the helpmate
(23:36):
, think of it as like hamburgerhelper, and yet that's not what
it means at all.
Ezer is such a different word,it's a powerful word.
So there's nothing about thisword.
That means subordination,Originally derived from phrases
to rescue or to save or to bestrong.
(23:57):
The word ezer appears 21 timesin the Old Testament.
Twice it refers to women.
Three times it refers to bestrong.
The word Ezra appears 21 timesin the Old Testament.
Twice it refers to women.
Three times it refers to peoplehelping or failing to help in
life-threatening situations and16 times it refers to God as our
helper and in eight instancesit actually means Savior.
How different is that thanhelpmate, right?
(24:21):
The word ezer is directlyfollowed by conegdo, which means
in front of him orcorresponding to him like a
mirror image.
It has nothing to do withputting another person's lives
or goals ahead of your own.
It's not about subordination.
Helpmate literally would bebetter translated as Savior, Wow
(24:45):
.
And yet when I think about mymarriage and what my wife calls
me to so many times, she savesme from my own bullshit.
She saves me how many times Iremember a client literally
would read scripture over hiswife so she'd submit to his
perverse sexual fetish, Submitto me, woman.
(25:12):
You know, I think about whenChristy and I were dating and I
was a pastor and I introducedher to my boss and my pastor, my
friend, and he pulled me aside.
He said, Andrew, like don't youwant more of a helpmate,
Somebody that will support youin your goals?
Because he knew I had big goalsand dreams and I thought about
it.
I was like no, actually I don't, I want a woman that'll take me
(25:37):
on.
I knew enough of my darkness andmy Enneagram eightness that I
could dominate and steamrollsomebody and I needed a strong
woman that could call me on mycrap and that would face me and
take me on.
And that, to me, is what apartner is Right Somebody that
(25:58):
could run fast.
And so my wife, Dr ChristyBauman, like she's a beast and
you should have her on.
Yeah, I think you're right,she's a beast, and this is what
partnership is.
This is what like.
That's what that means.
I want an equal, because I wantto be inspired.
I want to inspire her.
I want a partner who can run asfast as I do, Wow.
(26:21):
And yet we've we've interpretedit as something like doormat or
something Right?
Speaker 1 (26:25):
Instead of a powerful person who can make a big
difference in our lives.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Correct, that's just.
You know, submission, headship,grace and forgiveness.
We've learned to weaponizegrace and forgiveness.
You know a reminder ofKristen's response.
She said after my husband.
Kristen's response she saidafter my husband was abusive and
addicted to porn, I was told toforgive that my anger would
cause him to do more porn.
So I shouldn't get angry that Iwas a Christian for longer, so
(26:54):
I should set the better example.
Direct quote Like she goes toher pastor, he tells her.
Like she goes to her pastor, hetells her kill her humanity,
Cut off what she's feeling right, Completely, spiritually,
bypasses everything when reallyshe should not only feel angry,
(27:15):
she should feel rage, she shouldfeel betrayal, heartbreak,
grief.
But rather than focusing on theabuser and what he did, his
abuse, they weaponizedforgiveness.
And this is what happens allthe time.
They pressure the abuser I meanthe abused to forgive quickly,
(27:35):
right, Without actual properrepentance from the abuser.
Right.
They misquote Bible verses tomanipulate into spiritual
bypassing.
They make it more about the actof doing forgiveness, like
getting, almost, like aspiritual point, rather than
actually feeling and being with.
(27:57):
Moving on is the highestpriority.
It's a transaction, Exactly,Exactly, Exactly.
And that's what weaponizingforgiveness is.
And it's a call to cheap grace.
It's a cheap form of grace, asBonhoeffer wrote, and so that's
what we're talking about, whichis just gross and hard.
Modesty purity that's such acommon one.
(28:21):
I'm reminded by this tweet fromthis pastor in Utah.
He wrote dear ladies, there'sno reason whatsoever for you to
post pictures of yourself in lowcut shirts, bikinis, bras,
underwear, anything ever.
Not to show your weight lossjourney, not to show your
newborn baby, not to documentyour birth story?
Signed your brothers, baby.
(28:43):
Not to document your birthstory?
Signed your brothers.
And then the comedian DustinNickerson responded dear donuts,
there's no reason whatsoeverfor you to be so delicious.
You look so good, you smell sogood, you taste better than
anything ever.
Me eating eight of you andhaving no self-control is on you
for just being the way you are.
My character flaws are yourfault.
(29:03):
Signed your brothers.
I just love that response.
Right, Blaming donuts.
And yet how much is that?
Is that what that pastor wassaying?
He was telling on themselvesthat he has a pornographic
mindset, and yet I was that guytoo.
Like, I get it Right.
It reminds me of Adam and Evein Genesis 3.12.
(29:24):
Right, the woman you gave medid this.
Right, it's like we want toblame women.
We want to blame their bodies,their lack of modesty, and yet
look at the statistics of sexualabuse.
When women are fully veiled, itdoesn't matter, it doesn't
matter, right.
And when you actually look atscripture, modesty has nothing
(29:49):
to do with what we're wearing.
That is an Americaninterpretation.
It has to do with flauntingyour wealth and the women in the
early church right that we'rewearing fancy dresses and you
know fancy jewelry and fancyhairstyles and they're flaunting
it.
That's what he's Paul's talkingabout.
Nothing to do but our modernsexualized obsession and, you
(30:13):
know, pornographic mindset likethat's what we're putting into
the text.
It's insane.
So there's just a few of thehighlights of kind of how
problematic theologies andteachings come out of
problematic misinterpretationsof scripture.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
Absolutely.
What role can we as men play inadvocating for women and
protecting women, especially inchurch?
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Yeah, well, if 87% of men are leaders, it's like okay
, we've got to use our power forgood.
We've got to use our place asdeacons, as leaders in the
church to advocate for women, toreally look deeply into issues
of trauma and abuse, tounderstand you have to do your
(31:02):
own internal work.
You can't lead others where youhaven't gone yourself, right.
So if you want to startimplementing church policies and
safeguards, it's like okay,what?
What about you?
What have you done inside ofyourself?
Right, are you at peace withyour own sexism, your own abuse,
your own issues?
Right, and then we can begin tostart the conversation.
(31:24):
Right.
Then we can begin to usetrusted resources.
We can begin to trust ourbodies.
We can begin to advocate forwomen.
We can do the basic stuff ofyearly abuse prevention,
training and criminal backgroundchecks and becoming familiar
with policies and procedures,open dialogue sessions and what
I heard from women over and over.
(31:45):
I just wanted representation.
I just wanted another woman atthe table.
I just wanted to.
I didn't want to be alone inthis right.
One woman shared about she wassexually abused by a church
leader and she goes to herpastor and he calls it sex and
he blames her for seducing thismarried man because she was 18
(32:06):
and he was in his 40s.
And finally, I guess, in onemeeting, the pastor's wife is in
the meeting and she says wait aminute, I don't know if we
should call this sex.
This sounds more like rape.
And she was like, oh, just onewoman in the room and she felt
so seen, and yet they had nounderstanding of power dynamics
(32:29):
that this leader in the church,who also worked at their private
Christian school, who was ascience teacher, seduced, you
know, this young teenage girlwho had just become an adult,
you know, left the high schoolor whatever, and but like, oh my
gosh, this is horrific, yeah,and this is so normalized.
So let's have more diversity inleadership, let's have more
(32:51):
women at the table, let's not beafraid to share power.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
What are some specific ways that churches can
better handle reports of abuseor misconduct?
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Yeah, we can't be quiet.
So when's the last time youheard a sermon about domestic
violence?
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Never.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
One out of four women will have experience with that.
When's the last sermon youheard about sexual abuse?
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Never.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
One out of three women will experience sexual
abuse and men experience sexualabuse.
The stats are not as common.
It happens all the time.
So are we starting theconversation?
Are we at least beginning?
And if your church isn't, yes,buy this book, share it with
your pastor If he's not willing.
(33:38):
We've got to do somethingdifferent.
We've got to begin to takesteps towards cultivating safety
.
I know the organization calledGrace, godly Response to Abuse
in Christian Communities.
They do abuse preventiontrainings to Christian
communities.
It's like we've got to begin tocreate healthier institutions
(33:59):
that represent Christ more fully, rather than our own
unprocessed wounds.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
And protecting those who have been harmed, rather
than protecting the image of thechurch.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
Bingo.
So many churches want toprotect the institution.
Well, this would look bad, thiswould look bad on us and then
our giving would go down.
We don't want to hurt themission, yep, and it's so gross,
it's so wrong.
We would rather protect theimage rather than the actual
(34:39):
image.
Bearer of God.
How is that possible?
And yet that's so normal.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
It's fear and shame instead of love.
I mean, andrew, this is heavy,this is difficult to hear, it's
difficult to focus on.
What would you say to a manwho's having trouble digesting
some of this?
Speaker 2 (35:03):
We can be part of the change.
Eating an elephant, one pieceat a time, right.
So what can you do?
What can you do to become anhonest man?
What can you do to become anauthentic man who advocates for
women?
Do to become an authentic manwho advocates for women.
(35:25):
What can you do to begin toself-reflect and realize your
experience might not beeverybody else's experience.
Begin to look out of the windowof someone else's experience.
Begin to listen to women.
I listened to 2,800 of them.
They told me stuff I didn'twant to know.
I listened to 2,800 of them.
They told me stuff I didn'twant to know.
I'm not proud of that, but Ilearned a lot because we need to
(35:48):
begin to listen to women andwhat they're telling us.
But without power, if they'rejust being told, oh, it's just a
joke, who's going to begin tochange?
This is a man's work, becausewe're the one perpetrating the
harm and the abuse.
So I say like, okay, lick yourwounds and let's go.
(36:09):
Like, let's care for thatlittle boy Heal.
Because what does it mean forhusbands to lay down your life
to your wife, as Christ did forthe church?
We are called to death.
So stop being defensive, stopbeing reactive.
Stop being oh, you know you'rehurting me.
It's just like, oh my gosh,like come on, like I get it, but
(36:31):
that's actually part of yourdefensiveness that's causing you
to not actually go to actionLike it's time.
It's time that we step into ourstrength and actually begin to
advocate rather than abuse.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
Resurrection only comes after a death.
Yes, so thank you for leadingthe way as a man who's willing
to die to some of these patternsthat were handed down to you.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
Exactly, yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
You're welcome, Andrew.
What gives you hope?
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Yeah, I mean.
It's obviously the hundreds ofmen that'll go through our
program this year that arefighting for healthier
masculinity, the women that arecontinuing to speak even though
they're being maligned anddismissed.
It's like okay, people aren'tgiving up.
If I have to feel the weight ofthis, I didn't have to live it.
(37:40):
I'm a white man who'sarticulate.
I've always been in seats ofpower.
It's like I think I can bearthis for a little bit.
Like I'm not.
I haven't lived it my wholelife Like these women have.
They're much stronger than I am.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
It's really eyeopening and I would encourage
you guys to get a copy of safechurch.
You can find it at the link inthe show notes.
Andrew, thank you so much fortaking a stand.
Thanks for having me, gentlemen, always remember you are God's
(38:20):
beloved son and you, he is wellpleased.
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