February 10, 2025 • 30 mins
What is narcissistic personality disorder, and how does it interact with porn and sex addiction? For someone with NPD or narcissistic traits, what does healing and growth look like?
Dr. Alexandra Repke (CSAT, EMDR, C-PD) is a Christian psychologist who typically work with successful professionals facing challenges in their relationships or careers, often stemming from issues related to addiction, personality, or trauma. She is a lifelong learner, committed to understanding the complexities of mental health and advocating for practical, impactful solutions.
Learn more at repkepsychologicalservices.com
Books mentioned (these are paid links):
- Thanks for the Feedback, by Douglas Stone and Sheila Heen
- The Wizard of Oz and Other Narcissists, by Eleanor Payson
- A Game Free Life, by Stephen Karpman
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Hey, my name is Drew Boa,founder of Husband Material,
(00:21):
where I help men outgrow porn.
Thank you so much for listeningto today's interview with Dr
Alexandra Repke on porn andnarcissistic personality
disorder.
If you have ever wondered whatis narcissism and am I a
narcissist, Do I havenarcissistic traits?
Is someone in my familystruggling with narcissistic
(00:42):
personality disorder?
This is the episode for you.
We get so much clarity,information, education from Dr
Repke.
I'm so grateful that this isall provided for free, and
listening to this interview isnot only educational, it's
enjoyable, because Alexanderdoes a great job of putting
everything in simple terms sothat we can understand it and
(01:04):
see more healing in this world.
Enjoy Welcome to HusbandMaterial.
Today, we get to hear from DrAlexandra Repke, who is a
licensed psychologistspecializing in the treatment of
adults with addiction, anxiety,depression, personality
disorders and trauma.
She's trained in EMDR.
She's a certified sex addictiontherapist and personality
(01:26):
disorder treatment provider,which means that she is the
perfect person for us to learnfrom about today's topic of
narcissism.
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Thank you, I am so excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Alexandra, where does this word narcissist come from?
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Like a lot of fun words we have in the here and
now.
It comes from Greek mythology,interestingly enough, and so
there was a man named Narcissusand I might butcher this a
little bit, so forgive me, but aman named Narcissus.
He was considered beautiful byall and he would reject the
(02:03):
advances of others, thinkingthey weren't good enough for him
something along those lines andeventually he catches a glimpse
of himself in a stream andfalls in love with his image, to
the point where he isn't takingcare of himself, he's not
feeding his body, he's notgetting rest, and I believe he
(02:24):
ends up dying there, and thenthe flower narcissist grows in
his place.
So there's a lot of symbolismhere, but what I think can be
missed in the story is that hedidn't fall in love with himself
.
He fell in love with his image.
And here's the difference.
I'm going to liken it to thehere and now, where we have all
(02:46):
of this ability to filter oredit our own photos.
Right, we take selfies and theycan be heavily filtered or
edited, or at the exact rightangle that we like, and the
image we produce, yeah, it'srepresentative of us, but it's
not actually us.
There's a disconnect betweenwho we are and the image, and so
(03:08):
, similarly, for a truenarcissist, there's a disconnect
between the image that theycultivate and curate versus who
they actually are, and thatdisconnect for them is
intolerable, which is why theyhave a really hard time
accepting feedback, especiallyconstructive feedback, because
(03:29):
it doesn't align with this imagethat I mean they've been
enslaved to, is the best way Iknow how to put it.
So that's where the story comesfrom and, to be really clear, a
narcissist they're not in lovewith themselves, they're in love
with the image they becomeenslaved to.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
So why are you passionate about this issue of
narcissism, especially for menwho are struggling with
compulsive sexual behavior?
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Yes, so I've worked in the personality disorder
field, if you will, for sevenyears, so meaning it's become my
specialty and my passion and myfocus.
And the reason that I've zoomedin on personality disorders and
narcissism in particular isbecause I've watched as it can
impede people's recovery.
It serves as a direct barrierfor people getting well and
(04:16):
staying well, and that is why Iam incredibly passionate about
not just proper treatment butdistributing information that is
correct, because narcissism issuch a buzzword.
You Google it and so manythings are going to come up and
next thing, you know everyoneyou know in your life is
considered a narcissist basedoff of some BuzzFeed quiz.
(04:36):
And so just really excitedabout today to take the
opportunity to be clear aboutwhat narcissism is, what a
personality disorder is, andthen how and why that would
impact somebody getting well andstaying well in the context of
pornography, addiction,compulsive sexual behaviors, etc
.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
This is so needed, especially for some of our guys
who are wondering like am I anarcissist?
Or my wife is saying that Ihave these narcissistic traits?
What exactly is narcissism?
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Great question.
So to get to that answer, wehave to back up just a little
bit and talk about what is apersonality, then what is a
healthy personality, and then,finally, what is a personality
disorder?
Personality, and then, finally,what is a personality disorder?
So let's backtrack and go there.
So what is your personality?
You ask 10 clinicians, you'llget 10 different answers.
(05:32):
This is the answer that I heardonce and just resonated the
most with me.
Your personality is yourpsychological toolkit.
What it means is what tools doyou have at your disposal that
you can pull out at will basedon the environment around you?
That's what your personality is, and so in a healthy
(05:54):
personality, you have access toreally all and most of the tools
.
For example, you can choose toeither trust someone, or you can
choose to mistrust them, or youcan choose any of the spectrum
in between those two things.
That's a healthy personalityhaving access to a myriad of
traits and being able to pullthem out at will to navigate
(06:17):
your environment.
And then we get to a personalitydisorder.
So I already alluded to this alittle bit.
And then we get to apersonality disorder so I
already alluded to this a littlebit.
To have full access to a trait,you have to have access to its
antithesis.
And that's a littlephilosophical, so I'll break it
down saying picture a penny or aquarter or a coin.
You need to have access to bothsides to then allow you for the
(06:44):
range in between those traits.
So, like trust and mistrust,you need to have access to both
to be able to pick from thegradients in between.
So, for a personality disorder,what's going on is you don't
have access to both sides of thecoin, you are limited in your
access.
You have one trait, you don'thave its antithesis and
(07:05):
therefore you don't have therange that would fall between
those two traits.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
You don't have all the tools.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Exactly.
You don't have all the tools,and so, for narcissism in
particular, what we're lookingat is for a true narcissistic
personality disorder.
You are missing the ability tosee others as equals.
You're missing it, and then,without that ability, you are
then stuck, if you will, in aland of grandiosity that becomes
(07:36):
your tool, the tool of I ambetter than other people, I am
superior, I deserve more.
So that, in a nutshell, is whatnarcissistic personality
disorder is.
You are missing an incrediblyimportant tool of equality.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
It sounds really sad.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
It is, and it's actually one of the things that
I struggle with when I look atthose Buzzfeed articles as
they're they're typically moreso looking at things from the
victim's lens.
So the person who's been hurt bya narcissist and there's truth
in that and there's validity inthat, but the reality is is for
(08:15):
somebody who's a true narcissistthey're missing a piece that
you and I get to take forgranted and there is a sadness
in that.
So a question I get asked a lotis why does a personality
disorder, or narcissism in thiscase, impede somebody from
getting well, what is the actualbarrier?
And so to answer that, I thinkto the phrase that a lot of
(08:40):
folks will know the opposite ofaddiction is connection.
As a psychologist, like thatphrase has my stamp of approval
on it, without a doubt.
And what's going on with apersonality disorder is it's
impeding someone's ability toconnect 10 different personality
(09:02):
disorders.
In each personality disorderyou're missing something
important to be able to not justnavigate life, but to connect
with another human being.
That's why it impedes recovery,because it's it's harming your
ability to connect.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
So I can imagine how somebody who is dealing with the
personality disorder would feelconstantly frustrated or
disappointed in trying to buildfriendships or trying to connect
.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Yes, these are folks that on the outside might look
like they have a lot of friends,but they feel so utterly alone,
and the strength and fortitudeof those relationships does not
match those of someone else whohas access to that missing trait
.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
That makes so much sense, Especially if we've heard
about narcissism from popularsources.
What are some commonmisconceptions people have about
this?
Speaker 2 (09:54):
So I would say the main one is the origin of true
narcissism.
So I align with Dr GregoryLester's conceptualizations and
teachings and interpretations ofthis.
He's considered to be a leaderin the field and narcissism is
something you're born with.
And narcissism is somethingyou're born with True narcissism
(10:16):
if it is what we just discussedyou are born with that deficit.
That doesn't happen throughtrauma.
Later on in life you are alwaysmissing this piece.
Now I want to be really clear.
Somebody can developnarcissistic characteristics
based off of trauma.
They still have access to bothsides of the coin, but for some
(10:37):
reason they're keeping the coinone side up because of trauma or
something like that.
So narcissistic characteristicscan be developed through the
course of your life, but interms of a full-blown
personality disorder, you wereborn that way.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
So it sounds like two people might be exhibiting very
similar narcissistic behaviors,but one is a true narcissist
and one isn't.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
How do I know if I'm really a narcissist?
Speaker 2 (11:05):
It's a great question .
So first of all, let's look atthis in context to compulsive
sexual behaviors.
I want to be really clear thatthe majority of people in the
throes of such behaviors aregoing to kind of look like a
narcissist, because foraddiction to be sustained and
maintained in some ways you haveto disregard the impact that is
(11:28):
causing other people.
You have to create that mentaldivorce and somehow say I
deserve this or something alongthose lines divorce and somehow
say I deserve this or somethingalong those lines.
So again, in the throes ofcompulsive sexual behaviors, I
think most people look like anarcissist, but that's just it.
It doesn't mean that you are atrue narcissist.
It doesn't mean you qualify fornarcissistic personality
(11:50):
disorder.
Those characteristics of youputting yourself above other
people that always had to be thecase.
That had to happen way beforethe addiction.
This was a lifelong pattern,this was something you were born
with.
So that can be a way to teaseapart, if you will.
Is this narcissism or is thisnarcissistic characteristics?
Speaker 1 (12:12):
What are some examples of those
characteristics for someone whois frequently using porn?
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Yeah.
So that would be lackingempathy for your spouse or
family members, because, thinkabout it If you're not seeing
somebody as an equal, you can'treally have empathy for them,
and so I think that's actuallywhy a lot of spouses will say
he's a narcissist, becausethey're sensing that you're not
(12:39):
viewing them as an equal andyou're not having empathy for
them.
They're sensing that, so a lackof empathy would be a huge
piece that I would look for,also the idea of the
justification I deserve it.
That would be a potentialsignal here.
But again, if we're looking atnarcissism in regards to a
(13:00):
personality disorder, this can'tjust be contained in your
addiction.
This has to have impacted youin other ways throughout your
life.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
So what does healing and growth look like for someone
who is enslaved to his ownimage?
Speaker 2 (13:19):
There's a couple of things I look for.
Firstly, their ability to startaccepting who they are outside
of this image that they havespent a lifetime crafting and
cultivating.
That's a huge piece of it.
Becoming at peace with thedisconnect and then also
recognizing some of thesuperficialness of the image,
(13:44):
that's a big piece.
I mean, that's been their God.
That's a strong statement, butthat is the case here.
And so really starting torecognize how superficial and
how meaningless so many aspectsof this image they've curated
has been, that's a big step.
I would also say I look forsomeone who can start taking
(14:06):
more constructive feedback as acue for healthy growth.
Because a narcissist, for themto start out with constructive
feedback, even if you deliver itbeautifully to them, it feels
like an attack on their image tostart with and they can't
tolerate it.
They become rageful and if youdon't see it on the outside,
it's going on on the inside.
(14:27):
So healthy growth looks at thembeing able to accept feedback
and it not feel like that attackanymore.
That's a big part of growth andhealing for somebody with
narcissism.
And then a third piece thatI'll add in here looks at them
getting off the Cartman triangle.
(14:48):
I don't know how familiar theaudience will be with the
Cartman triangle.
If you're okay, let's quick, doa little sidebar and then come
back.
The Cartman Triangle looks at usengaging in conflict in
unhealthy ways or showing up torelationships in unhealthy ways.
There are three positions, ifyou will.
(15:09):
We've got the rescuer, whichsounds better than it is.
I'll get back to it.
The persecutor and the victim.
The rescuer, which soundsbetter than it is, I'll get back
to it.
The persecutor and the victim.
The rescuer it's kind of thewhite knight in shining armor
coming in, except it's reallynot.
It's somebody coming in andslowly taking away from somebody
else's autonomy, if you will,and creating a dependency on
(15:34):
them.
They're stepping in in a waythat is interfering with the
other person's ability to growand be independent and make
autonomous choices.
That's the rescuer.
Another word could be enabler.
That might sound familiar tosome.
So we've got the rescuer.
Then we have the persecutor.
This is the individual who theymight look like they're just in
(15:58):
their anger, but really they'rejust causing and inflicting
unnecessary amounts of pain topunish.
That's what they're actuallydoing.
Their boundaries they'reputting forward aren't to
protect, they're to punish.
And also, I would say, ifsomebody is yelling or shouting
or pointing the finger oractively trying to blame or
(16:19):
shame.
That would fit under persecutoras well.
Then we have the third positionof victim.
I have referred to it as avictim mentality because you and
I both know that there are truevictims.
We can all like people arevictimized and there's nothing
wrong with having been a victim.
What we're looking at on thistriangle is the victim mentality
(16:42):
.
That's where someone,essentially, is wearing these
lenses, where when they look atthe world, they don't see the
overall picture.
They just zoom in on any pieceof evidence that that person
could be hurting them and theyget stuck.
It's the woe is me.
I'm always being hurt and justreally having a hard time
zooming out.
(17:03):
That's the Cartman triangle andeach of the personality
disorders.
If you will have their owndance, they do on the triangle
and for a narcissist, typicallyit can change, but typically
it's occupying the space ofrescuer in a relationship for a
time and then going between thatand persecutor, rescuer to
(17:25):
persecutor, rescuer topersecutor.
I also think it's reallyimportant for me to add here
that all of us, personalitydisorder or not, we hop on this
triangle.
I have my home bases with myhusband.
Not we hop on this triangle.
I have my home bases with myhusband.
We hop on this triangle.
It's a non-clinical thing tohave been on the triangle we all
do it.
What's a little different aboutpersonality disorders, though,
(17:46):
is they more so live on thistriangle.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Got it.
What would be an example of anarcissist going back and forth
between rescuer and persecutor?
Speaker 2 (17:58):
of a narcissist going back and forth between rescuer
and persecutor.
Yeah, so it would be anarcissist.
It's kind of the grand gesturesafter a fight to start with,
like reminders of hey look, I'mhere for you, I'm taking care of
you, let me do this for you,and then, on the back end, for
the persecutor, you're notgrateful enough for me.
Look at everything I do for you.
Don't you see this house that Ihave bought with the money I
(18:20):
make?
Like it's a sudden turn, if youwill.
It's whiplash for the person onthe other end and they go from
oh look, I'm here to take careof you all, while kind of
cultivating some dependency, ifyou will, in an unhealthy way.
And the next thing, you knowyou're not grateful enough.
I could take all this away fromyou if I wanted to.
(18:44):
It's a scary vacillation.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
It could be so confusing.
Yes, so all of us hop on theCartman triangle at times in
different ways, and we can havecompassion for ourselves and
each other in the middle of that.
Yes, how do you work withsomeone who's experiencing
narcissistic personalitydisorder to try to shift some of
these things?
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Yeah.
So first thing that I do is alot of evaluation.
I am very hesitant to just slapon that diagnostic label,
because the treatment fornarcissistic personality
disorder is different than thetreatment for narcissistic
tendencies.
They're two different things.
For the former, I'm trying tohelp install a missing trait
(19:30):
that you never had.
I'm trying to install a qualitythat means I'm going to be
speaking to you very differentlythan I would if I'm treating
someone who has picked up thesethings along the way but has
access to equality For that kindof treatment.
For narcissistic tendencieswe're usually looking at
trauma-based things and thetreatment of the trauma can help
(19:54):
bring some reprieve and some ofthose symptoms down.
For narcissistic personalitydisorder, it is highly
confrontational.
There's a lot of structure toit.
The patient will sign what'scalled a treatment frame, which
is just an agreement for certaintreatment boundaries that they
need to adhere to for me to bewilling to continue forward with
(20:17):
treatment.
It's intensive, more than oncea week therapy.
If you go to my website, you'llsee my structure is different
here, where I see patients morethan four times a month and I
also communicate with thembetween sessions, because for a
personality disorder you needthat constant feedback.
My job as a clinician is tohold a mirror in front of you
(20:40):
and you're going to try to dodgeit and I'm going to follow you
with it and also be really inthe moment.
Something that's different aboutpersonality disorder treatment
is that, as much as you can andthis is how I do it, based off
of my training I bring it to thehere and now.
So, for example, if I'm workingwith a narcissist with a sexual
(21:01):
addiction and he's trying totell me about his interaction
with his wife and I'm trying toget information and he's like,
no, no, but you weren't there,you don't actually understand.
Okay, we bring it to the hereand now.
I talk to him about how hisarrogance is impacting me.
I talked to him about how hishis snarky remark that he made.
I interpreted it as a jab andI'm not okay with that.
(21:24):
He doesn't get to talk to melike that.
Let's go ahead and try adifferent way for you to express
your anger at me.
That isn't just sparring.
And then I coach him throughthat process.
So it's a it.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
That sounds really intense and potentially really
impactful.
Could you share one or twosuccess stories?
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Oh my goodness.
Yes, this is my favorite partof the job is watching people
transform.
So one story that I have inmind.
This was a physician.
I saw him at a residentiallevel of care, which just means
that there was a lot of therapy.
It was 40 hours a week oftherapy is what that means for X
(22:09):
amount of months, so very, veryintensive.
And he came in with a chemicaladdiction as well as
narcissistic personalitydisorder.
And on the front end he hadsuch a hard time getting honest
about his chemical addiction.
And it wasn't just because fora lot of people with addiction
there's shame For him, it was heneeded to protect the image.
(22:32):
That was the narcissistic part.
Like the pieces he waswithholding were not these giant
pieces that his medical boardwould have looked at him and
like, oh no, you can't practice.
So it wasn't out of protection,it was.
I don't want to tell you thesepieces because it goes so
against the image that I haveguarded and protected my whole
life.
And so the start of treatmentwas rough.
There were polygraphs involved,there were hair follicles
(22:55):
involved.
It took a lot to have him behonest about the extent of his
addiction because of hisnarcissism, and eventually he
was honest, but he was more sohonest at first because he was
backed into a corner, notbecause he wanted to be
proactively honest.
So after we finally got theextent of what was actually
going on and began treatment, wedid the thing.
(23:17):
I say we it was a clinical team, but he was my primary patient
where we followed him aroundwith a mirror and just kept
giving him feedback, feedback,feedback, and then kept coaching
him for different ways torespond and calling him out when
those tendencies would becomealive and well.
And there's this one beautifulmoment where we did what was
(23:38):
called an experiential, and thepoint of the experiential was
for him to see the cheapness ofthe image that he's been
enslaved to.
It's actually something that'sgoing to be published in a book
of mine, hopefully in the nextyear.
But the long story short iswhen that exercise was complete,
he looked around at us and saidI have been something along the
(24:00):
lines of I've been chasingafter nothing my whole life.
I know we were sitting in theroom and I had props and all the
things.
Like one prop represented, Ithink, the vacations he had been
on the other, like thedecorations for the house that
were so important.
Like he just sat there.
I was like this is, this ismeaningless to me.
(24:21):
There was a moment where wegrieved that together.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
It's like his eyes were opened.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
Something broke through.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
It did.
After there was grief and wethen transitioned it to okay,
what now?
This stuff doesn't matter, whatmatters?
And so we got to do a lot ofvalue work and he got to figure
out for him and this is no small, small work what is the meaning
(24:57):
of his life, because it's nolonger this shiny stuff.
What is the meaning of his lifeand how is he going to be
congruent, value congruent, andit was beautiful just watching
his interactions change with hiswife.
He became a different person.
He graduated, if you will, fromthere, I believe, went back
(25:18):
into practice and I have everyreason to believe is is doing
well.
It was such a beautiful thingto watch and I want to be really
clear.
It was really painful for himto get there.
It was again.
We're following him with amirror and not letting him look
away.
When he looks away, we're likeno, no, no, look back.
Nope, nope, nope, look back.
It was so much hard work forhim to get there, but he did.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
I'm imagining that it's also a lot of hard work for
people to get to the point ofsaying I need help with this.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Yes, it is, most of the folks that come to me come
to me because they've hit rockbottom.
Their life has exploded.
I've had a few people be ableto come in before that point,
which is always really excitingto me because I'm like, okay,
good, the snowball's rolling,but it doesn't have to crash at
the bottom Like let's, let's getto work now.
(26:10):
But it takes a lot.
And so my encouragement tolisteners whether it's a
personality disorder or thecharacteristics would be to
really be open to some of thefeedback that you've heard in
your life.
If you have a history offishing for compliments or rage
(26:32):
when you feel challenged, ifyou're overly competitive, if
you're demeaning to others, andif you get that feedback from
others that this is a true thingin your life, consider getting
some help.
And I obviously can't tell youfrom here is it the personality
disorder, is it thecharacteristics?
But what I can tell you isthere are clinicians that can
(26:53):
assess and let you know and thengive you a treatment plan to
help you on the road to recovery.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
That's awesome.
I know you're passionate aboutgiving people good information
and good resources, so where canwe go to get more help?
Speaker 2 (27:08):
So, first of all, reference to the Cartman
Triangle.
There's a great book.
It's by Stephen Cartman, it'scalled A Game-Free Life.
I think that that narcissisticpersonality disorder or
narcissistic characteristicsthat would be helpful.
And then there's another bookcalled Thanks for the Feedback
by Douglas Stone and Sheila Heen.
(27:28):
With narcissisticcharacteristics or narcissistic
personality disorder, you'regoing to have a rough
relationship with feedback andactually, in general, human
beings do have a roughrelationship with feedback.
But if you feel yourself beingenraged, angry, not being able
to let that feedback go, this isa book for you.
(27:52):
For the family members ofsomeone with suspected
characteristics or the disorder,there's a book called the
Wizard of Oz and OtherNarcissists by Eleanor Payson.
That would be a good one.
She talks about the one-wayrelationship that is present
with somebody with narcissism.
So that would be a good one toread.
(28:13):
And then, finally, what I wouldsay is, if this is something
that you suspect and want to getfurther information on, I would
recommend going to a certifiedpersonality disorder treatment
professional.
It's alphabet soup around here,but that would be a C-PD and
that's just going to be somebodythat you know has the extra
(28:35):
training on this to be able topoint you in the right direction
.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Awesome.
I'm going to put the links toall of those books in the
description here so that you canaccess those, and you are one
of those specialists.
So if you want to learn moreabout Alexandra, you can go to
her website, which we're alsoincluding in the description for
RepKey Psychological Services.
Alexandra, what is yourfavorite thing about healing?
Speaker 2 (29:05):
healing that gets spread to their families, their
co-workers, their socialacquaintances, their community.
(29:34):
It's beautiful to watch theripple effect of and.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
I'm so grateful to be able to do what I do.
Amen.
Isn't that amazing.
We'll never know all the rippleeffects of just one person's
redemption.
Thank you so much for teachingus about narcissism and
narcissistic personalitydisorder and how that intersects
with the issues that a lot ofus are facing with sexuality.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Glad to be here.
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
You're welcome, gentlemen.
Always remember you are God'sbeloved son In you.
He is well-pleased.
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Hey, my name is Drew Boa,founder of Husband Material,
(00:21):
where I help men outgrow porn.
Thank you so much for listeningto today's interview with Dr
Alexandra Repke on porn andnarcissistic personality
disorder.
If you have ever wondered whatis narcissism and am I a
narcissist, Do I havenarcissistic traits?
Is someone in my familystruggling with narcissistic
(00:42):
personality disorder?
This is the episode for you.
We get so much clarity,information, education from Dr
Repke.
I'm so grateful that this isall provided for free, and
listening to this interview isnot only educational, it's
enjoyable, because Alexanderdoes a great job of putting
everything in simple terms sothat we can understand it and
(01:04):
see more healing in this world.
Enjoy Welcome to HusbandMaterial.
Today, we get to hear from DrAlexandra Repke, who is a
licensed psychologistspecializing in the treatment of
adults with addiction, anxiety,depression, personality
disorders and trauma.
She's trained in EMDR.
She's a certified sex addictiontherapist and personality
(01:26):
disorder treatment provider,which means that she is the
perfect person for us to learnfrom about today's topic of
narcissism.
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Thank you, I am so excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Alexandra, where does this word narcissist come from?
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Like a lot of fun words we have in the here and
now.
It comes from Greek mythology,interestingly enough, and so
there was a man named Narcissusand I might butcher this a
little bit, so forgive me, but aman named Narcissus.
He was considered beautiful byall and he would reject the
(02:03):
advances of others, thinkingthey weren't good enough for him
something along those lines andeventually he catches a glimpse
of himself in a stream andfalls in love with his image, to
the point where he isn't takingcare of himself, he's not
feeding his body, he's notgetting rest, and I believe he
(02:24):
ends up dying there, and thenthe flower narcissist grows in
his place.
So there's a lot of symbolismhere, but what I think can be
missed in the story is that hedidn't fall in love with himself
.
He fell in love with his image.
And here's the difference.
I'm going to liken it to thehere and now, where we have all
(02:46):
of this ability to filter oredit our own photos.
Right, we take selfies and theycan be heavily filtered or
edited, or at the exact rightangle that we like, and the
image we produce, yeah, it'srepresentative of us, but it's
not actually us.
There's a disconnect betweenwho we are and the image, and so
(03:08):
, similarly, for a truenarcissist, there's a disconnect
between the image that theycultivate and curate versus who
they actually are, and thatdisconnect for them is
intolerable, which is why theyhave a really hard time
accepting feedback, especiallyconstructive feedback, because
(03:29):
it doesn't align with this imagethat I mean they've been
enslaved to, is the best way Iknow how to put it.
So that's where the story comesfrom and, to be really clear, a
narcissist they're not in lovewith themselves, they're in love
with the image they becomeenslaved to.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
So why are you passionate about this issue of
narcissism, especially for menwho are struggling with
compulsive sexual behavior?
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Yes, so I've worked in the personality disorder
field, if you will, for sevenyears, so meaning it's become my
specialty and my passion and myfocus.
And the reason that I've zoomedin on personality disorders and
narcissism in particular isbecause I've watched as it can
impede people's recovery.
It serves as a direct barrierfor people getting well and
(04:16):
staying well, and that is why Iam incredibly passionate about
not just proper treatment butdistributing information that is
correct, because narcissism issuch a buzzword.
You Google it and so manythings are going to come up and
next thing, you know everyoneyou know in your life is
considered a narcissist basedoff of some BuzzFeed quiz.
(04:36):
And so just really excitedabout today to take the
opportunity to be clear aboutwhat narcissism is, what a
personality disorder is, andthen how and why that would
impact somebody getting well andstaying well in the context of
pornography, addiction,compulsive sexual behaviors, etc
.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
This is so needed, especially for some of our guys
who are wondering like am I anarcissist?
Or my wife is saying that Ihave these narcissistic traits?
What exactly is narcissism?
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Great question.
So to get to that answer, wehave to back up just a little
bit and talk about what is apersonality, then what is a
healthy personality, and then,finally, what is a personality
disorder?
Personality, and then, finally,what is a personality disorder?
So let's backtrack and go there.
So what is your personality?
You ask 10 clinicians, you'llget 10 different answers.
(05:32):
This is the answer that I heardonce and just resonated the
most with me.
Your personality is yourpsychological toolkit.
What it means is what tools doyou have at your disposal that
you can pull out at will basedon the environment around you?
That's what your personality is, and so in a healthy
(05:54):
personality, you have access toreally all and most of the tools
.
For example, you can choose toeither trust someone, or you can
choose to mistrust them, or youcan choose any of the spectrum
in between those two things.
That's a healthy personalityhaving access to a myriad of
traits and being able to pullthem out at will to navigate
(06:17):
your environment.
And then we get to a personalitydisorder.
So I already alluded to this alittle bit.
And then we get to apersonality disorder so I
already alluded to this a littlebit.
To have full access to a trait,you have to have access to its
antithesis.
And that's a littlephilosophical, so I'll break it
down saying picture a penny or aquarter or a coin.
You need to have access to bothsides to then allow you for the
(06:44):
range in between those traits.
So, like trust and mistrust,you need to have access to both
to be able to pick from thegradients in between.
So, for a personality disorder,what's going on is you don't
have access to both sides of thecoin, you are limited in your
access.
You have one trait, you don'thave its antithesis and
(07:05):
therefore you don't have therange that would fall between
those two traits.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
You don't have all the tools.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Exactly.
You don't have all the tools,and so, for narcissism in
particular, what we're lookingat is for a true narcissistic
personality disorder.
You are missing the ability tosee others as equals.
You're missing it, and then,without that ability, you are
then stuck, if you will, in aland of grandiosity that becomes
(07:36):
your tool, the tool of I ambetter than other people, I am
superior, I deserve more.
So that, in a nutshell, is whatnarcissistic personality
disorder is.
You are missing an incrediblyimportant tool of equality.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
It sounds really sad.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
It is, and it's actually one of the things that
I struggle with when I look atthose Buzzfeed articles as
they're they're typically moreso looking at things from the
victim's lens.
So the person who's been hurt bya narcissist and there's truth
in that and there's validity inthat, but the reality is is for
(08:15):
somebody who's a true narcissistthey're missing a piece that
you and I get to take forgranted and there is a sadness
in that.
So a question I get asked a lotis why does a personality
disorder, or narcissism in thiscase, impede somebody from
getting well, what is the actualbarrier?
And so to answer that, I thinkto the phrase that a lot of
(08:40):
folks will know the opposite ofaddiction is connection.
As a psychologist, like thatphrase has my stamp of approval
on it, without a doubt.
And what's going on with apersonality disorder is it's
impeding someone's ability toconnect 10 different personality
(09:02):
disorders.
In each personality disorderyou're missing something
important to be able to not justnavigate life, but to connect
with another human being.
That's why it impedes recovery,because it's it's harming your
ability to connect.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
So I can imagine how somebody who is dealing with the
personality disorder would feelconstantly frustrated or
disappointed in trying to buildfriendships or trying to connect
.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Yes, these are folks that on the outside might look
like they have a lot of friends,but they feel so utterly alone,
and the strength and fortitudeof those relationships does not
match those of someone else whohas access to that missing trait
.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
That makes so much sense, Especially if we've heard
about narcissism from popularsources.
What are some commonmisconceptions people have about
this?
Speaker 2 (09:54):
So I would say the main one is the origin of true
narcissism.
So I align with Dr GregoryLester's conceptualizations and
teachings and interpretations ofthis.
He's considered to be a leaderin the field and narcissism is
something you're born with.
And narcissism is somethingyou're born with True narcissism
(10:16):
if it is what we just discussedyou are born with that deficit.
That doesn't happen throughtrauma.
Later on in life you are alwaysmissing this piece.
Now I want to be really clear.
Somebody can developnarcissistic characteristics
based off of trauma.
They still have access to bothsides of the coin, but for some
(10:37):
reason they're keeping the coinone side up because of trauma or
something like that.
So narcissistic characteristicscan be developed through the
course of your life, but interms of a full-blown
personality disorder, you wereborn that way.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
So it sounds like two people might be exhibiting very
similar narcissistic behaviors,but one is a true narcissist
and one isn't.
Speaker 2 (11:02):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
How do I know if I'm really a narcissist?
Speaker 2 (11:05):
It's a great question .
So first of all, let's look atthis in context to compulsive
sexual behaviors.
I want to be really clear thatthe majority of people in the
throes of such behaviors aregoing to kind of look like a
narcissist, because foraddiction to be sustained and
maintained in some ways you haveto disregard the impact that is
(11:28):
causing other people.
You have to create that mentaldivorce and somehow say I
deserve this or something alongthose lines divorce and somehow
say I deserve this or somethingalong those lines.
So again, in the throes ofcompulsive sexual behaviors, I
think most people look like anarcissist, but that's just it.
It doesn't mean that you are atrue narcissist.
It doesn't mean you qualify fornarcissistic personality
(11:50):
disorder.
Those characteristics of youputting yourself above other
people that always had to be thecase.
That had to happen way beforethe addiction.
This was a lifelong pattern,this was something you were born
with.
So that can be a way to teaseapart, if you will.
Is this narcissism or is thisnarcissistic characteristics?
Speaker 1 (12:12):
What are some examples of those
characteristics for someone whois frequently using porn?
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Yeah.
So that would be lackingempathy for your spouse or
family members, because, thinkabout it If you're not seeing
somebody as an equal, you can'treally have empathy for them,
and so I think that's actuallywhy a lot of spouses will say
he's a narcissist, becausethey're sensing that you're not
(12:39):
viewing them as an equal andyou're not having empathy for
them.
They're sensing that, so a lackof empathy would be a huge
piece that I would look for,also the idea of the
justification I deserve it.
That would be a potentialsignal here.
But again, if we're looking atnarcissism in regards to a
(13:00):
personality disorder, this can'tjust be contained in your
addiction.
This has to have impacted youin other ways throughout your
life.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
So what does healing and growth look like for someone
who is enslaved to his ownimage?
Speaker 2 (13:19):
There's a couple of things I look for.
Firstly, their ability to startaccepting who they are outside
of this image that they havespent a lifetime crafting and
cultivating.
That's a huge piece of it.
Becoming at peace with thedisconnect and then also
recognizing some of thesuperficialness of the image,
(13:44):
that's a big piece.
I mean, that's been their God.
That's a strong statement, butthat is the case here.
And so really starting torecognize how superficial and
how meaningless so many aspectsof this image they've curated
has been, that's a big step.
I would also say I look forsomeone who can start taking
(14:06):
more constructive feedback as acue for healthy growth.
Because a narcissist, for themto start out with constructive
feedback, even if you deliver itbeautifully to them, it feels
like an attack on their image tostart with and they can't
tolerate it.
They become rageful and if youdon't see it on the outside,
it's going on on the inside.
(14:27):
So healthy growth looks at thembeing able to accept feedback
and it not feel like that attackanymore.
That's a big part of growth andhealing for somebody with
narcissism.
And then a third piece thatI'll add in here looks at them
getting off the Cartman triangle.
(14:48):
I don't know how familiar theaudience will be with the
Cartman triangle.
If you're okay, let's quick, doa little sidebar and then come
back.
The Cartman Triangle looks at usengaging in conflict in
unhealthy ways or showing up torelationships in unhealthy ways.
There are three positions, ifyou will.
(15:09):
We've got the rescuer, whichsounds better than it is.
I'll get back to it.
The persecutor and the victim.
The rescuer, which soundsbetter than it is, I'll get back
to it.
The persecutor and the victim.
The rescuer it's kind of thewhite knight in shining armor
coming in, except it's reallynot.
It's somebody coming in andslowly taking away from somebody
else's autonomy, if you will,and creating a dependency on
(15:34):
them.
They're stepping in in a waythat is interfering with the
other person's ability to growand be independent and make
autonomous choices.
That's the rescuer.
Another word could be enabler.
That might sound familiar tosome.
So we've got the rescuer.
Then we have the persecutor.
This is the individual who theymight look like they're just in
(15:58):
their anger, but really they'rejust causing and inflicting
unnecessary amounts of pain topunish.
That's what they're actuallydoing.
Their boundaries they'reputting forward aren't to
protect, they're to punish.
And also, I would say, ifsomebody is yelling or shouting
or pointing the finger oractively trying to blame or
(16:19):
shame.
That would fit under persecutoras well.
Then we have the third positionof victim.
I have referred to it as avictim mentality because you and
I both know that there are truevictims.
We can all like people arevictimized and there's nothing
wrong with having been a victim.
What we're looking at on thistriangle is the victim mentality
(16:42):
.
That's where someone,essentially, is wearing these
lenses, where when they look atthe world, they don't see the
overall picture.
They just zoom in on any pieceof evidence that that person
could be hurting them and theyget stuck.
It's the woe is me.
I'm always being hurt and justreally having a hard time
zooming out.
(17:03):
That's the Cartman triangle andeach of the personality
disorders.
If you will have their owndance, they do on the triangle
and for a narcissist, typicallyit can change, but typically
it's occupying the space ofrescuer in a relationship for a
time and then going between thatand persecutor, rescuer to
(17:25):
persecutor, rescuer topersecutor.
I also think it's reallyimportant for me to add here
that all of us, personalitydisorder or not, we hop on this
triangle.
I have my home bases with myhusband.
Not we hop on this triangle.
I have my home bases with myhusband.
We hop on this triangle.
It's a non-clinical thing tohave been on the triangle we all
do it.
What's a little different aboutpersonality disorders, though,
(17:46):
is they more so live on thistriangle.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Got it.
What would be an example of anarcissist going back and forth
between rescuer and persecutor?
Speaker 2 (17:58):
of a narcissist going back and forth between rescuer
and persecutor.
Yeah, so it would be anarcissist.
It's kind of the grand gesturesafter a fight to start with,
like reminders of hey look, I'mhere for you, I'm taking care of
you, let me do this for you,and then, on the back end, for
the persecutor, you're notgrateful enough for me.
Look at everything I do for you.
Don't you see this house that Ihave bought with the money I
(18:20):
make?
Like it's a sudden turn, if youwill.
It's whiplash for the person onthe other end and they go from
oh look, I'm here to take careof you all, while kind of
cultivating some dependency, ifyou will, in an unhealthy way.
And the next thing, you knowyou're not grateful enough.
I could take all this away fromyou if I wanted to.
(18:44):
It's a scary vacillation.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
It could be so confusing.
Yes, so all of us hop on theCartman triangle at times in
different ways, and we can havecompassion for ourselves and
each other in the middle of that.
Yes, how do you work withsomeone who's experiencing
narcissistic personalitydisorder to try to shift some of
these things?
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Yeah.
So first thing that I do is alot of evaluation.
I am very hesitant to just slapon that diagnostic label,
because the treatment fornarcissistic personality
disorder is different than thetreatment for narcissistic
tendencies.
They're two different things.
For the former, I'm trying tohelp install a missing trait
(19:30):
that you never had.
I'm trying to install a qualitythat means I'm going to be
speaking to you very differentlythan I would if I'm treating
someone who has picked up thesethings along the way but has
access to equality For that kindof treatment.
For narcissistic tendencieswe're usually looking at
trauma-based things and thetreatment of the trauma can help
(19:54):
bring some reprieve and some ofthose symptoms down.
For narcissistic personalitydisorder, it is highly
confrontational.
There's a lot of structure toit.
The patient will sign what'scalled a treatment frame, which
is just an agreement for certaintreatment boundaries that they
need to adhere to for me to bewilling to continue forward with
(20:17):
treatment.
It's intensive, more than oncea week therapy.
If you go to my website, you'llsee my structure is different
here, where I see patients morethan four times a month and I
also communicate with thembetween sessions, because for a
personality disorder you needthat constant feedback.
My job as a clinician is tohold a mirror in front of you
(20:40):
and you're going to try to dodgeit and I'm going to follow you
with it and also be really inthe moment.
Something that's different aboutpersonality disorder treatment
is that, as much as you can andthis is how I do it, based off
of my training I bring it to thehere and now.
So, for example, if I'm workingwith a narcissist with a sexual
(21:01):
addiction and he's trying totell me about his interaction
with his wife and I'm trying toget information and he's like,
no, no, but you weren't there,you don't actually understand.
Okay, we bring it to the hereand now.
I talk to him about how hisarrogance is impacting me.
I talked to him about how hishis snarky remark that he made.
I interpreted it as a jab andI'm not okay with that.
(21:24):
He doesn't get to talk to melike that.
Let's go ahead and try adifferent way for you to express
your anger at me.
That isn't just sparring.
And then I coach him throughthat process.
So it's a it.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
That sounds really intense and potentially really
impactful.
Could you share one or twosuccess stories?
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Oh my goodness.
Yes, this is my favorite partof the job is watching people
transform.
So one story that I have inmind.
This was a physician.
I saw him at a residentiallevel of care, which just means
that there was a lot of therapy.
It was 40 hours a week oftherapy is what that means for X
(22:09):
amount of months, so very, veryintensive.
And he came in with a chemicaladdiction as well as
narcissistic personalitydisorder.
And on the front end he hadsuch a hard time getting honest
about his chemical addiction.
And it wasn't just because fora lot of people with addiction
there's shame For him, it was heneeded to protect the image.
(22:32):
That was the narcissistic part.
Like the pieces he waswithholding were not these giant
pieces that his medical boardwould have looked at him and
like, oh no, you can't practice.
So it wasn't out of protection,it was.
I don't want to tell you thesepieces because it goes so
against the image that I haveguarded and protected my whole
life.
And so the start of treatmentwas rough.
There were polygraphs involved,there were hair follicles
(22:55):
involved.
It took a lot to have him behonest about the extent of his
addiction because of hisnarcissism, and eventually he
was honest, but he was more sohonest at first because he was
backed into a corner, notbecause he wanted to be
proactively honest.
So after we finally got theextent of what was actually
going on and began treatment, wedid the thing.
(23:17):
I say we it was a clinical team, but he was my primary patient
where we followed him aroundwith a mirror and just kept
giving him feedback, feedback,feedback, and then kept coaching
him for different ways torespond and calling him out when
those tendencies would becomealive and well.
And there's this one beautifulmoment where we did what was
(23:38):
called an experiential, and thepoint of the experiential was
for him to see the cheapness ofthe image that he's been
enslaved to.
It's actually something that'sgoing to be published in a book
of mine, hopefully in the nextyear.
But the long story short iswhen that exercise was complete,
he looked around at us and saidI have been something along the
(24:00):
lines of I've been chasingafter nothing my whole life.
I know we were sitting in theroom and I had props and all the
things.
Like one prop represented, Ithink, the vacations he had been
on the other, like thedecorations for the house that
were so important.
Like he just sat there.
I was like this is, this ismeaningless to me.
(24:21):
There was a moment where wegrieved that together.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
It's like his eyes were opened.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
Something broke through.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
It did.
After there was grief and wethen transitioned it to okay,
what now?
This stuff doesn't matter, whatmatters?
And so we got to do a lot ofvalue work and he got to figure
out for him and this is no small, small work what is the meaning
(24:57):
of his life, because it's nolonger this shiny stuff.
What is the meaning of his lifeand how is he going to be
congruent, value congruent, andit was beautiful just watching
his interactions change with hiswife.
He became a different person.
He graduated, if you will, fromthere, I believe, went back
(25:18):
into practice and I have everyreason to believe is is doing
well.
It was such a beautiful thingto watch and I want to be really
clear.
It was really painful for himto get there.
It was again.
We're following him with amirror and not letting him look
away.
When he looks away, we're likeno, no, no, look back.
Nope, nope, nope, look back.
It was so much hard work forhim to get there, but he did.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
I'm imagining that it's also a lot of hard work for
people to get to the point ofsaying I need help with this.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Yes, it is, most of the folks that come to me come
to me because they've hit rockbottom.
Their life has exploded.
I've had a few people be ableto come in before that point,
which is always really excitingto me because I'm like, okay,
good, the snowball's rolling,but it doesn't have to crash at
the bottom Like let's, let's getto work now.
(26:10):
But it takes a lot.
And so my encouragement tolisteners whether it's a
personality disorder or thecharacteristics would be to
really be open to some of thefeedback that you've heard in
your life.
If you have a history offishing for compliments or rage
(26:32):
when you feel challenged, ifyou're overly competitive, if
you're demeaning to others, andif you get that feedback from
others that this is a true thingin your life, consider getting
some help.
And I obviously can't tell youfrom here is it the personality
disorder, is it thecharacteristics?
But what I can tell you isthere are clinicians that can
(26:53):
assess and let you know and thengive you a treatment plan to
help you on the road to recovery.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
That's awesome.
I know you're passionate aboutgiving people good information
and good resources, so where canwe go to get more help?
Speaker 2 (27:08):
So, first of all, reference to the Cartman
Triangle.
There's a great book.
It's by Stephen Cartman, it'scalled A Game-Free Life.
I think that that narcissisticpersonality disorder or
narcissistic characteristicsthat would be helpful.
And then there's another bookcalled Thanks for the Feedback
by Douglas Stone and Sheila Heen.
(27:28):
With narcissisticcharacteristics or narcissistic
personality disorder, you'regoing to have a rough
relationship with feedback andactually, in general, human
beings do have a roughrelationship with feedback.
But if you feel yourself beingenraged, angry, not being able
to let that feedback go, this isa book for you.
(27:52):
For the family members ofsomeone with suspected
characteristics or the disorder,there's a book called the
Wizard of Oz and OtherNarcissists by Eleanor Payson.
That would be a good one.
She talks about the one-wayrelationship that is present
with somebody with narcissism.
So that would be a good one toread.
(28:13):
And then, finally, what I wouldsay is, if this is something
that you suspect and want to getfurther information on, I would
recommend going to a certifiedpersonality disorder treatment
professional.
It's alphabet soup around here,but that would be a C-PD and
that's just going to be somebodythat you know has the extra
(28:35):
training on this to be able topoint you in the right direction
.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Awesome.
I'm going to put the links toall of those books in the
description here so that you canaccess those, and you are one
of those specialists.
So if you want to learn moreabout Alexandra, you can go to
her website, which we're alsoincluding in the description for
RepKey Psychological Services.
Alexandra, what is yourfavorite thing about healing?
Speaker 2 (29:05):
healing that gets spread to their families, their
co-workers, their socialacquaintances, their community.
(29:34):
It's beautiful to watch theripple effect of and.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
I'm so grateful to be able to do what I do.
Amen.
Isn't that amazing.
We'll never know all the rippleeffects of just one person's
redemption.
Thank you so much for teachingus about narcissism and
narcissistic personalitydisorder and how that intersects
with the issues that a lot ofus are facing with sexuality.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Glad to be here.
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
You're welcome, gentlemen.
Always remember you are God'sbeloved son In you.
He is well-pleased.
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