May 12, 2025 • 29 mins
What does it mean to objectify yourself? Sam Jolman explains objectification, why and how we objectify ourselves, and what healing and repentance can look like.
Sam Jolman (MA, LPC) is a trauma therapist with over twenty years of experience specializing in men’s issues and sexual trauma recovery. His writing flows out of this unique opportunity to help people know and heal their stories, and find greater sexual wholeness and aliveness. He received his master’s in counseling from Reformed Theological Seminary and was further trained in Narrative Focused Trauma Care through the Allender Center at The Seattle School of Theology and Psychology. Sam lives in Colorado with his wife and three sons. Fun fact: Sam and Drew attend the same church! Learn more at samjolman.com
Buy Sam's book: The Sex Talk You Never Got: Reclaiming the Heart of Masculine Sexuality
Write a review of The Sex Talk You Never Got: https://amazon.com/review/create-review?&asin=1400243904
Listen to Sam's first Husband Material interview: It's Good To Be Aroused (with Sam Jolman)
Take the Husband Material Journey...
- Step 1: Listen to this podcast or watch on YouTube
- Step 2: Join the private Husband Material Community
- Step 3: Take the free mini-course: How To Outgrow Porn
- Step 4: Try the all-in-one program: Husband Material Academy
Thanks for listening!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Hey man, thank you forlistening to my interview with
(00:21):
Sam Joelman about why weobjectify ourselves, especially
as men In the journey of freedomfrom porn.
We often focus on how weobjectify others, not realizing
that we can also objectifyourselves.
In this interview, sam talksabout what that means, why we do
that, and then what healing andrepentance looks like.
(00:42):
This was such a gift of aconversation.
Then.
What healing and repentancelooks like.
This was such a gift of aconversation.
It was also very convicting forme, because the truth is,
sometimes we're not kind toourselves.
In this episode, you mightbecome aware of the ways that
you settle for being used ratherthan being loved and cared for.
Sam is a counselor, he's agreat friend and he is the
author of the book.
Is a counselor, he's a greatfriend and he is the author of
(01:03):
the book the Sex Talk you NeverGot Reclaiming the Heart of
Masculine Sexuality.
Over the past year, many of youhave bought this book.
We gave it away at the HusbandMaterial Retreat.
To every person who attendedand for those of you who have
loved it, would you pleaseconsider writing an Amazon
review for Sam.
It would mean a lot.
(01:24):
I think you're going to get alot out of this interview.
It was mind-blowing for me torealize that I'm not only
tempted to objectify others, I'mtempted to objectify myself.
You're going to find out whatthat means how to heal from it.
Enjoy the episode.
I am excited to be back with myfriend, sam Joelman.
Sam, welcome back.
Thank you, drew.
(01:45):
It's such a privilege to behere.
It's great to see you, eventhough I see you in church, like
every week.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Yes, you playing your accordion.
Have you disclosed all theinstruments that you play?
Speaker 1 (01:58):
No, people don't know about that.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Okay, am I allowed to disclose your multi-talents?
Piano, accordion, bass guitar,other things.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Acoustic guitar is also an option, but I prefer to
not sing because it's so muchmultitasking.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Well, I think you're the only accordion player that
I've seen and I appreciate anaccordion in church worship.
Thanks, it's not for every song, but in general.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
I think I appreciate an accordion in church worship.
Thanks, you know it's not forevery song, but in general I
think we need more accordion.
That's right, sam.
It's been almost one year sincethe sex talk you never got was
published.
As you look back on the pastyear, what?
Speaker 2 (02:40):
stands out to you.
What I'm most blown away by isthe conversations with men out
of this book.
And getting emails, gettingone-on-one interactions with men
, is just that, how much menwant to have this conversation,
how much they want to find theheart of their sexuality, not
(03:02):
just the body arousal, but alsothe heart of desire.
And what I've been blown awayby is just how men get it and my
publisher, you know we had acouple of conversations.
They weren't so sure.
Are men going to resonate witha book on beauty, sensuality,
the lover right?
(03:24):
Is that something they're gonnabe like?
Oh, I'm not going there, orthat doesn't resonate.
But men get it Like.
They want that conversation.
Men want to be more than animals.
They want to be honored as morethan animals.
They don't wanna just beanimals with urges sexual urges,
right that can barely controlit.
They know there's more tobarely control it.
(03:45):
They know there's more to whothey are.
They know that they're capableof intimacy.
They know that they want to begood lovers.
They want to reclaim this loverheart, their sensuality, their
capacity for beauty, theirability to be intimate.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Thank you for giving us permission to enjoy our
sexuality.
Yes, you were made to be aroused, amen.
And if you guys want to hearmore about that, go down to the
link in the show notes where youcan find my interview with Sam
from a year ago.
Today we are going to talkabout one of the ways that we
(04:27):
avoid our lover hearts, one ofthe ways that, maybe, we treat
ourselves as less than human.
The concept of objectifyingourselves is a new one for me
that you taught on at theHusband Material Retreat.
Yes, what does it mean toobjectify yourself?
Speaker 2 (04:48):
You know, in very basic terms, to objectify
yourself is to see yourself asan object, to see yourself only
as a means to an end.
So it's using any part of yourbody, your being, your existence
, to accomplish something.
And only you know to seeyourself sort of as a tool of
accomplishment.
So I'm here to make money, I'mhere to accomplish, get the job
(05:13):
done right.
I'm pushing my body, myexistence to just function to
accomplish something.
You know, the opposite oftreating yourself as an object
would be to see yourself as acreature right, worthy of care.
You're the image of God, you'rethe artwork of God, you're part
(05:33):
of God's creation and, likeevery other part of creation,
you're worthy of care.
You and yourself are not just ameans to an end, you're an end
in itself.
You bear the glory of God andyou're meant to be treated with
care.
You're meant to have encounter,intimacy, relationship.
Do I need to be a means to anend?
(05:53):
At some level?
You know, as a primarybreadwinner in my home, yes,
we're not saying that's bad, butif you only do that, and I
would say you know, as men,there is a temptation right to
kind of disregard your body,disregard your spiritual life,
(06:14):
disregard your well-being.
You know we call it survivalmode.
Right, I'm getting through, I'mgetting a bunch of things done,
I've got my to-do list and thatjust kind of drives existence
and I don't stop to encounterhow am I doing?
When have I stopped and justcared about my well-being?
(06:37):
So that's objectifying yourself.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
One of the reasons why we don't often think about
objectifying ourselves isbecause it's so normalized in
our culture and it's not a newthing Like this has been
happening forever.
What are some examples of howmen historically have
objectified ourselves?
Speaker 2 (06:59):
You know, we both live here in Colorado and it's
interesting.
You know, in my camping tripsand travels, vacations with my
family, it's not uncommon tofind yourself in a mining town,
right?
Even some of these old skitowns are old mining towns and
it's been interesting to walkaround and notice, you know,
(07:22):
there's the common buildingsthat each mining town has, along
with the jail right, the postoffice, the jail, and then two
other buildings that are likeubiquitous, like common in every
town, which are a saloon and abrothel right.
And so you think about thesemining towns.
(07:43):
You know these guys are doingbackbreaking work to mine for
gold or etc.
And what's given to these men tocare for their bodies, right.
What's given to these men tonot objectify themselves?
A saloon and a brothel right.
(08:07):
There's not much else whenthey're off the clock to do.
And so it's basically againways to numb yourself, right
With alcohol, or get sex asrelease, but not relationship,
right.
Again, objectifying others,right?
Do you see how it starts toroll downhill?
So now they're objectifyingwomen and again, I'm not
(08:30):
excusing these men, but in partbecause they lived such an
objectified life themselves.
So you know, even there,historically right in our state,
is this profound example of theculture of men being driven to
be objectified and thereforeobjectify, and I think that
carries forward to today.
(08:53):
So we just don't have a cultureof men that knows how to bless
our bodies well.
Even the gym rats, right, theguys that are pumping iron, talk
to some of those men and a lotof times there's not really an
attunement to their own bodies.
They're pushing themselves toinjury, sometimes right Again.
(09:16):
Why To try to get theappearance right?
Why are there mirrors at somany of these gyms?
It's image, not self-care, orat least it can cross into that.
I'm not saying everybody thereis doing that, but we need to
recover that in our masculineculture.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Amen.
For so many of us with workbeing on screens and computers,
it's like our little digitalmining town.
Yeah, going from the labor ofwork to the digital next door
website of porn.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Right, and you know even our what could be
considered a type of playwatching a sports game baseball,
football, basketball Again, Ithink that can be pleasurable
and leisure, but, in the wordsof Dan Allender, that's still a
(10:18):
form of vicarious play.
Right, it can be fun and it canbe bonding, and I'm not trying
to diminish that, but thequestion still remains are you
just watching other people playor do you have places that you
go play Pick up basketball,throw the football in the
(10:39):
backyard with your kids, gogolfing?
Right?
Do you have places that youactually do let yourself play,
not just watch it on yourfavorite sports teams?
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Mm-hmm, it's convicting.
Objectifying myself isessentially treating myself as a
means to an end, something tobe used yes, instead of someone
who's worthy of care.
Right Instead of someone who'sworthy of care, right.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
And you know we often think of objectification in
terms of lust, right, which isI'm objectifying somebody else,
meaning I'm seeing them as ameans to an end, my own sexual
gratification, my own sexualfulfillment, right, I don't care
who they are, I'm just usingtheir form, their body, you know
(11:34):
, for fantasy or for actualsexual acting out, or, you know,
in pornography I'm using thisperson, I don't know who they
are, but I don't care, they'rean object.
You know, we knowobjectification in those terms
as lust, but you know, to thinkabout it outside of the realm of
sexuality is when you abusesomebody, again as a means to an
(11:56):
end and not for genuinerelationship and encountering
and knowing and relating to Ithink there's even a
spiritualized objectification ofbeing used by God.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Yes, I heard Michael John Cusick say that God's
ultimate goal is not to use usbecause that would be abusive.
His ultimate goal is union withus.
Isn't that refreshing, that'sso good, that's awesome.
And yet the ways that we use orabuse ourselves can be really
subtle.
How do you know if you'reobjectifying yourself?
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Yeah, great question.
I think there are two ways thatyou can kind of do an
assessment.
One would be kind of lifeassessment, kind of reading your
life, you know, and that couldbe as simple as like how often
are you kind of off the clock,literally?
You know in our day and agewhere we work from home and we
have laptops and phones, that weoften give access to our
(12:53):
employers you know employersaccess to our personal phones,
so like anybody can text me atany time, right, and sometimes
there's expectation of I'm goingto answer an email at nine
o'clock at night, and so youknow, just a life assessment
could be how did you havedowntime?
How often are you off the clock?
How often are you out of thegetting things done mode?
(13:16):
And again, I'm not saying thatgetting things done is wrong.
We have to.
My dishwasher has to be filledand emptied and filled and
emptied, like several times aday, and so those are necessary
parts of life.
But where are you leaving kindof that fallow ground?
Where do you have what would bemore like a restorative rest
(13:37):
time?
Where do you play?
Where do you leave time forpersonal growth?
Where do you leave time forrelationships?
When was the last time you sawa friend?
When was the last time you sawa friend?
When was the last time youexercised your body?
In my last 24 hours did I doanything that allowed me to be a
creature and encounter God orhave relationship?
(13:59):
When did I have a relationship?
More than hey, how you doingGood, you Good, right, something
like that would be a lifeassessment.
The second thing would just befelt experience.
You know what is life feelinglike?
Are you tired, are you spent,are you burnt out, are you
stressed?
And again, there's such a thingas good stress, right, like
(14:22):
accomplishing tasks, going afterthings in life.
We're not saying having any ofthis is bad.
We're just saying if it's theonly mode you live in, that's
where you're objectifyingyourself.
But it can be as.
One thing for me is when I knowI'm irritable with my wife, my
kids, other drivers.
(14:42):
That's a sign that I know I'mspent.
I'm now seeing other people asbeing in the way of my life.
Right, that pull of evenobjectifying other drivers like
get out of my way.
I can notice that irritabilityin myself and that's usually a
sign for me internally of like Ineed a couple minutes to pray.
(15:03):
Right, it doesn't have to belike, oh, you need a week off,
maybe you do, maybe it is that.
But it can be as simple as liketaking five minutes breathing,
feeling the chair you're sittingin and just remembering like
I'm a creature that's loved.
I am complete and whole rightnow.
(15:27):
I don't need to accomplishanything.
I'm loved right here.
So you know, just that feltexperience.
Assessment of like.
Are you burned out?
And you know, I think even justyou know, maybe this is kind of
a combination of both would bedo you find yourself doing
dissociative activity to try toget rest, when you know to try
(15:50):
to be off the clock doom,scrolling Instagram, whatever,
being too much on your phonePornography use would fall into
that right.
Are you doing things that aremore dissociative,
non-relational, and it can bealcohol or other things you know
(16:12):
, just sort of like numbing,eating.
Those sorts of things can alsobe a felt kind of a felt sense
of like whoa, I'm kind of tryingto binge time off.
I'm not actually doingrestorative things, I'm just
doing kind of checkout things.
Those can be the triggers orthe clues of like you're
(16:33):
probably using yourself too much.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
This is a big paradigm shift for those of us
who have become aware of how weobjectify others to now think of
how am I objectifying myself?
Speaker 2 (16:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
And how am I mistreating my own body, not
just someone else's body?
I know this has been a verypersonal journey for you.
Could you say more about that?
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Yeah, a year ago I threw out my back.
So the week before the launchof my book, the Sex Talk you
Never Got, I threw out my backand my muscle sees up to the
point that I couldn't sit Like Iwas flat on my back and the
assessment was from my physicaltherapist.
(17:19):
This is all induced by stressand a lack of self-care, so I'd
quit exercising self-care.
So I'd quit exercising.
I'd kind of thrown my wholebody into the task of launching
my book and in a way that justwas not humanizing, and my body
(17:39):
talked back to me, as it will,to say hey, remember, you're a
creature, you know we need care.
And so it was a painfullearning lesson.
It was a painful learninglesson and it came with the
grief of like, how did I?
I wrote a book on blessing yourbody and the lover within, and
(18:00):
I threw out my back.
Talk about needing to smokewhat you sell.
As I said, practice what youpreach.
And so it's been a year ofrecovering my workout routine.
So I'm back to CrossFit.
My body feels like a goldenretriever that's gotten back
(18:21):
into being able to play.
It's weird to find the voice ofmy body again and it's
interesting to notice in theworkout, like my body's ready to
go and it wants to be workedout and thankfully, my back is
back, so to speak.
It's healed.
And, yeah, your body will talkto you, your life will talk to
(18:58):
you.
You know, back to the lifeassessment.
Things will stop working.
Relationships will start totalk back to you and say, hey,
where are you?
I don't feel like you're here.
Or your body will say, hey, youneed to think about us.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
I love that concept of your body talking, listening
to your body.
Sometimes we talk about theimportance of listening to your
body but sometimes guys havetrouble with that.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
You know, I wish that I had had the presence of mind
to say body, what are you sayingto me?
And that's sometimes a practice, literally I will ask clients
to do in session, actuallyregularly.
You know, what are you?
Just, what are you feeling inyour body?
Can you put your hand on thatplace and can you ask your body
what it's saying to you?
(19:45):
What does your body want to sayto you?
That can feel somewhatsubjective and like what, but
you're trying to get out of yourhead.
You're trying to listen towhat's my body saying.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
I love the question.
If that feeling could talk,what would it say?
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Yes.
And so then, listening to whatyour body is saying to you,
trying to follow that, trying tohonor that.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
So, instead of just pushing and working hard and
trying to get things done usingmy body, actually develop a
relationship with my body.
Yes, that's humanizing.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Yes, and even you know it may not be.
We're talking about physicalactivity, right, mine was very
much talking to me about needingplay and physical activity and
the joy of a workout.
For some reason, my body likesCrossFit, I don't know why.
You know I'm not the20-year-old with his shirt off
pumping iron, but I'm there andI have fun.
(20:45):
But you know, it could be likeother times, like loneliness.
It could be a dream you have.
That is kind of haunting andasking like is there?
(21:06):
something I'm not listening toin my daily life that needs to
haunt me at night.
Or it could be you've acted outwith porn, or you're waking up
from being a bit hung over, youhad one too many drinks.
You know, there's probably aplace for some confession, right
, but I think it's so easy tomove on and just say, well, that
was bad behavior and confess itas sin, and I move on and I
(21:30):
would say don't waste thosemoments, don't waste your sin,
so to speak, right as like stopand say, well, what did I really
need?
What was I trying to accomplish?
As you say so well, drew, right, pornography is not a problem,
it's an attempt at a solution.
I mean, it is a problem in somany ways, but it's experienced
(21:51):
as an attempt as a solution.
And so, to help you start toread, what was I really needing
or wanting that was driving metowards this that I struggled to
embody well, or to listen towell, to engage those needs.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Sam, you talked about repenting.
How do you practically repentfrom objectifying yourself?
Speaker 2 (22:16):
yeah, there's this like sweet spot you have to hit
in repentance.
This is true of probably allsin, but particularly here.
You know, there's the sweetswap between self-hatred and
self-pity called self-compassion.
And so self-hatred, you know,is the I need to beat myself up,
I need to be mean to myself insome way, and the horror stories
(22:41):
of, like, church fathers that,would you know, maybe even
castrated themselves or threwthemselves into thorn bushes,
right, that is self-hatred.
It is a harming of the body,not a coming home to it.
But then there is self-pitywhich is I couldn't help myself,
I'm just struggling, so bad,right, that tends to be where we
(23:02):
get some of that entitlement.
That's actually not kindness,right, it's actually just
keeping you from growing andyour body, your being, wants to
become more and your naturalstate want to grow.
So you know, that self-pityplace is, well, I can't help it.
(23:22):
You know, I've had a hard life,I've had a hard day, I have a
hard marriage and I just needrelief and I'm I deserve it, I
earned it, right.
That's kind of that self-pityvoice, right.
But then there's this sweetspot of self-compassion which is
, again, I'm a creature worthyof care and I even have a
(23:44):
responsibility to myself, tocare well for my presence and my
being, and that involvespersonal growth.
It involves attending to myneeds.
It involves even things likeeating good food, getting good
rest right.
The humility of just sleepright Can actually be a form of
repentance.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Let's talk about the workshop you led at the Husband
Material Retreat, where youguided us into that incredible
time with the men of HusbandMaterial community, like such
good dudes.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
We had chocolate and strawberries and we stopped and,
rather than just consume,consume right, which is what we
can do.
That's one of those other kindof dissociative things.
It's just food, food, food,food, food, and not really stop
to even taste the food.
So we spent time savoring apiece of chocolate, letting the
(24:45):
piece of chocolate melt, orsavoring a strawberry and
letting the kind of waves ofdifferent tastes as the
strawberry passed to differentparts of our tongue, right Like
that practice of slow sensuality.
We did smell exercises, so someessential oils.
It was incredible.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
How countercultural for a group of men to get
together saying we want to growand to do so through our five
senses and through lying down ina field of wildflowers.
Senses, and through lying downin a field of wildflowers
(25:26):
listening to the sound of thebreeze and the pine trees, I
mean this is part of what Godwants to give us.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Yes, and I was so moved at just the maturity of
the men at the husband materialretreat because they were open
to returning to their bodies ina sensual way and it's not
something we talk about right inour the culture of men that you
(26:01):
know the hunter types.
You know a lot of times whatthey say they love about hunting
is it's just permission to goto the woods and sit and enjoy
the pleasure of the sounds andthe views and the beauty.
It's armed solitude.
It's what they've said.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
Amazing and that's a really helpful distinction to
name solitude and isolation astwo different things.
Isolation is putting myself ina cage.
Solitude is putting mydistractions in a cage, and that
is connection.
This connection we're talkingabout with God, with nature,
(26:40):
with ourselves, with each other.
That is the opposite ofaddiction.
I love that distinction.
Sam, what is your favoritething about coming back to your
body and healing fromobjectifying yourself?
Speaker 2 (26:52):
I'm going to try to put words to some the felt
experience of that because ithas a definite feel and I hope
that this resonates with others.
But there's like a fullness oflife.
Life feels more experiential.
I feel more present to littleeveryday moments of beauty or
(27:15):
play or awe.
There's like a brightness tolife.
I just feel like my senses aremore available to both the world
and to God.
And then I think also that thereally wonderful byproduct is,
you know, the more you honoryour own dignity, it's just
(27:37):
natural and implicit that youwill honor the dignity of others
.
And so I find that when I givemyself a chance to read or pray
or even just take a little extratime to enjoy a moment of
beauty or savor my food, that Iam able to be more patient with
(27:58):
my family.
I'm able to see little momentswhere my own boys are in just a
moment of embodiment.
I have a son, my youngest son,who loves when I wake him up in
the morning.
He loves to have my wife comehelp him get dressed, and he's
(28:19):
eight, so he doesn't need itright, it's not necessary, but I
know it's just for connectionand I think having the awareness
of my own body has let menotice.
Oh, that's him wanting a momentof relationship and it would be
so easy to push him.
No, buddy, you just got to getdressed.
We got to start getting readyfor school and objectify him
(28:42):
right.
You need to get in the car.
You need to get to schoolbecause I need to get to work.
Right.
Can you start to hear?
I could miss that and I'm sograteful that God has given me
the eyes to see.
No, that's a moment ofembodiment for him.
So one of the greatest gifts ofthis freedom is it is
(29:04):
inherently going to help.
You want to treat people withdignity, relationship,
connection, you know, in a waythat's just flows out of your
own love and self-love.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Yeah, that's so true.
Thank you, Sam.
Thank you, Drew.
It's good to be here.
It's great to have you back.
Guys, if you want to connectwith Sam, go to samjolmancom.
You can find more links in theshow notes.
Definitely get a copy of theSex Talk you Never Got.
If you haven't, and if you haveread the book, please review it
(29:40):
on Amazon.
And, regardless of whether ornot you do all these things,
always remember you are God'sbeloved son.
In you he is well-pleased.
Welcome to the Husband Material podcast, where
we help Christian men outgrowporn.
Why?
So you can change your brain,heal your heart and save your
relationship.
My name is Drew Boa and I'mhere to show you how let's go.
Hey man, thank you forlistening to my interview with
(00:21):
Sam Joelman about why weobjectify ourselves, especially
as men In the journey of freedomfrom porn.
We often focus on how weobjectify others, not realizing
that we can also objectifyourselves.
In this interview, sam talksabout what that means, why we do
that, and then what healing andrepentance looks like.
(00:42):
This was such a gift of aconversation.
Then.
What healing and repentancelooks like.
This was such a gift of aconversation.
It was also very convicting forme, because the truth is,
sometimes we're not kind toourselves.
In this episode, you mightbecome aware of the ways that
you settle for being used ratherthan being loved and cared for.
Sam is a counselor, he's agreat friend and he is the
author of the book.
Is a counselor, he's a greatfriend and he is the author of
(01:03):
the book the Sex Talk you NeverGot Reclaiming the Heart of
Masculine Sexuality.
Over the past year, many of youhave bought this book.
We gave it away at the HusbandMaterial Retreat.
To every person who attendedand for those of you who have
loved it, would you pleaseconsider writing an Amazon
review for Sam.
It would mean a lot.
(01:24):
I think you're going to get alot out of this interview.
It was mind-blowing for me torealize that I'm not only
tempted to objectify others, I'mtempted to objectify myself.
You're going to find out whatthat means how to heal from it.
Enjoy the episode.
I am excited to be back with myfriend, sam Joelman.
Sam, welcome back.
Thank you, drew.
(01:45):
It's such a privilege to behere.
It's great to see you, eventhough I see you in church, like
every week.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Yes, you playing your accordion.
Have you disclosed all theinstruments that you play?
Speaker 1 (01:58):
No, people don't know about that.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Okay, am I allowed to disclose your multi-talents?
Piano, accordion, bass guitar,other things.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Acoustic guitar is also an option, but I prefer to
not sing because it's so muchmultitasking.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Well, I think you're the only accordion player that
I've seen and I appreciate anaccordion in church worship.
Thanks, it's not for every song, but in general.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
I think I appreciate an accordion in church worship.
Thanks, you know it's not forevery song, but in general I
think we need more accordion.
That's right, sam.
It's been almost one year sincethe sex talk you never got was
published.
As you look back on the pastyear, what?
Speaker 2 (02:40):
stands out to you.
What I'm most blown away by isthe conversations with men out
of this book.
And getting emails, gettingone-on-one interactions with men
, is just that, how much menwant to have this conversation,
how much they want to find theheart of their sexuality, not
(03:02):
just the body arousal, but alsothe heart of desire.
And what I've been blown awayby is just how men get it and my
publisher, you know we had acouple of conversations.
They weren't so sure.
Are men going to resonate witha book on beauty, sensuality,
the lover right?
(03:24):
Is that something they're gonnabe like?
Oh, I'm not going there, orthat doesn't resonate.
But men get it Like.
They want that conversation.
Men want to be more than animals.
They want to be honored as morethan animals.
They don't wanna just beanimals with urges sexual urges,
right that can barely controlit.
They know there's more tobarely control it.
(03:45):
They know there's more to whothey are.
They know that they're capableof intimacy.
They know that they want to begood lovers.
They want to reclaim this loverheart, their sensuality, their
capacity for beauty, theirability to be intimate.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Thank you for giving us permission to enjoy our
sexuality.
Yes, you were made to be aroused, amen.
And if you guys want to hearmore about that, go down to the
link in the show notes where youcan find my interview with Sam
from a year ago.
Today we are going to talkabout one of the ways that we
(04:27):
avoid our lover hearts, one ofthe ways that, maybe, we treat
ourselves as less than human.
The concept of objectifyingourselves is a new one for me
that you taught on at theHusband Material Retreat.
Yes, what does it mean toobjectify yourself?
Speaker 2 (04:48):
You know, in very basic terms, to objectify
yourself is to see yourself asan object, to see yourself only
as a means to an end.
So it's using any part of yourbody, your being, your existence
, to accomplish something.
And only you know to seeyourself sort of as a tool of
accomplishment.
So I'm here to make money, I'mhere to accomplish, get the job
(05:13):
done right.
I'm pushing my body, myexistence to just function to
accomplish something.
You know, the opposite oftreating yourself as an object
would be to see yourself as acreature right, worthy of care.
You're the image of God, you'rethe artwork of God, you're part
(05:33):
of God's creation and, likeevery other part of creation,
you're worthy of care.
You and yourself are not just ameans to an end, you're an end
in itself.
You bear the glory of God andyou're meant to be treated with
care.
You're meant to have encounter,intimacy, relationship.
Do I need to be a means to anend?
(05:53):
At some level?
You know, as a primarybreadwinner in my home, yes,
we're not saying that's bad, butif you only do that, and I
would say you know, as men,there is a temptation right to
kind of disregard your body,disregard your spiritual life,
(06:14):
disregard your well-being.
You know we call it survivalmode.
Right, I'm getting through, I'mgetting a bunch of things done,
I've got my to-do list and thatjust kind of drives existence
and I don't stop to encounterhow am I doing?
When have I stopped and justcared about my well-being?
(06:37):
So that's objectifying yourself.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
One of the reasons why we don't often think about
objectifying ourselves isbecause it's so normalized in
our culture and it's not a newthing Like this has been
happening forever.
What are some examples of howmen historically have
objectified ourselves?
Speaker 2 (06:59):
You know, we both live here in Colorado and it's
interesting.
You know, in my camping tripsand travels, vacations with my
family, it's not uncommon tofind yourself in a mining town,
right?
Even some of these old skitowns are old mining towns and
it's been interesting to walkaround and notice, you know,
(07:22):
there's the common buildingsthat each mining town has, along
with the jail right, the postoffice, the jail, and then two
other buildings that are likeubiquitous, like common in every
town, which are a saloon and abrothel right.
And so you think about thesemining towns.
(07:43):
You know these guys are doingbackbreaking work to mine for
gold or etc.
And what's given to these men tocare for their bodies, right.
What's given to these men tonot objectify themselves?
A saloon and a brothel right.
(08:07):
There's not much else whenthey're off the clock to do.
And so it's basically againways to numb yourself, right
With alcohol, or get sex asrelease, but not relationship,
right.
Again, objectifying others,right?
Do you see how it starts toroll downhill?
So now they're objectifyingwomen and again, I'm not
(08:30):
excusing these men, but in partbecause they lived such an
objectified life themselves.
So you know, even there,historically right in our state,
is this profound example of theculture of men being driven to
be objectified and thereforeobjectify, and I think that
carries forward to today.
(08:53):
So we just don't have a cultureof men that knows how to bless
our bodies well.
Even the gym rats, right, theguys that are pumping iron, talk
to some of those men and a lotof times there's not really an
attunement to their own bodies.
They're pushing themselves toinjury, sometimes right Again.
(09:16):
Why To try to get theappearance right?
Why are there mirrors at somany of these gyms?
It's image, not self-care, orat least it can cross into that.
I'm not saying everybody thereis doing that, but we need to
recover that in our masculineculture.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Amen.
For so many of us with workbeing on screens and computers,
it's like our little digitalmining town.
Yeah, going from the labor ofwork to the digital next door
website of porn.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Right, and you know even our what could be
considered a type of playwatching a sports game baseball,
football, basketball Again, Ithink that can be pleasurable
and leisure, but, in the wordsof Dan Allender, that's still a
(10:18):
form of vicarious play.
Right, it can be fun and it canbe bonding, and I'm not trying
to diminish that, but thequestion still remains are you
just watching other people playor do you have places that you
go play Pick up basketball,throw the football in the
(10:39):
backyard with your kids, gogolfing?
Right?
Do you have places that youactually do let yourself play,
not just watch it on yourfavorite sports teams?
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Mm-hmm, it's convicting.
Objectifying myself isessentially treating myself as a
means to an end, something tobe used yes, instead of someone
who's worthy of care.
Right Instead of someone who'sworthy of care, right.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
And you know we often think of objectification in
terms of lust, right, which isI'm objectifying somebody else,
meaning I'm seeing them as ameans to an end, my own sexual
gratification, my own sexualfulfillment, right, I don't care
who they are, I'm just usingtheir form, their body, you know
(11:34):
, for fantasy or for actualsexual acting out, or, you know,
in pornography I'm using thisperson, I don't know who they
are, but I don't care, they'rean object.
You know, we knowobjectification in those terms
as lust, but you know, to thinkabout it outside of the realm of
sexuality is when you abusesomebody, again as a means to an
(11:56):
end and not for genuinerelationship and encountering
and knowing and relating to Ithink there's even a
spiritualized objectification ofbeing used by God.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Yes, I heard Michael John Cusick say that God's
ultimate goal is not to use usbecause that would be abusive.
His ultimate goal is union withus.
Isn't that refreshing, that'sso good, that's awesome.
And yet the ways that we use orabuse ourselves can be really
subtle.
How do you know if you'reobjectifying yourself?
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Yeah, great question.
I think there are two ways thatyou can kind of do an
assessment.
One would be kind of lifeassessment, kind of reading your
life, you know, and that couldbe as simple as like how often
are you kind of off the clock,literally?
You know in our day and agewhere we work from home and we
have laptops and phones, that weoften give access to our
(12:53):
employers you know employersaccess to our personal phones,
so like anybody can text me atany time, right, and sometimes
there's expectation of I'm goingto answer an email at nine
o'clock at night, and so youknow, just a life assessment
could be how did you havedowntime?
How often are you off the clock?
How often are you out of thegetting things done mode?
(13:16):
And again, I'm not saying thatgetting things done is wrong.
We have to.
My dishwasher has to be filledand emptied and filled and
emptied, like several times aday, and so those are necessary
parts of life.
But where are you leaving kindof that fallow ground?
Where do you have what would bemore like a restorative rest
(13:37):
time?
Where do you play?
Where do you leave time forpersonal growth?
Where do you leave time forrelationships?
When was the last time you sawa friend?
When was the last time you sawa friend?
When was the last time youexercised your body?
In my last 24 hours did I doanything that allowed me to be a
creature and encounter God orhave relationship?
(13:59):
When did I have a relationship?
More than hey, how you doingGood, you Good, right, something
like that would be a lifeassessment.
The second thing would just befelt experience.
You know what is life feelinglike?
Are you tired, are you spent,are you burnt out, are you
stressed?
And again, there's such a thingas good stress, right, like
(14:22):
accomplishing tasks, going afterthings in life.
We're not saying having any ofthis is bad.
We're just saying if it's theonly mode you live in, that's
where you're objectifyingyourself.
But it can be as.
One thing for me is when I knowI'm irritable with my wife, my
kids, other drivers.
(14:42):
That's a sign that I know I'mspent.
I'm now seeing other people asbeing in the way of my life.
Right, that pull of evenobjectifying other drivers like
get out of my way.
I can notice that irritabilityin myself and that's usually a
sign for me internally of like Ineed a couple minutes to pray.
(15:03):
Right, it doesn't have to belike, oh, you need a week off,
maybe you do, maybe it is that.
But it can be as simple as liketaking five minutes breathing,
feeling the chair you're sittingin and just remembering like
I'm a creature that's loved.
I am complete and whole rightnow.
(15:27):
I don't need to accomplishanything.
I'm loved right here.
So you know, just that feltexperience.
Assessment of like.
Are you burned out?
And you know, I think even justyou know, maybe this is kind of
a combination of both would bedo you find yourself doing
dissociative activity to try toget rest, when you know to try
(15:50):
to be off the clock doom,scrolling Instagram, whatever,
being too much on your phonePornography use would fall into
that right.
Are you doing things that aremore dissociative,
non-relational, and it can bealcohol or other things you know
(16:12):
, just sort of like numbing,eating.
Those sorts of things can alsobe a felt kind of a felt sense
of like whoa, I'm kind of tryingto binge time off.
I'm not actually doingrestorative things, I'm just
doing kind of checkout things.
Those can be the triggers orthe clues of like you're
(16:33):
probably using yourself too much.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
This is a big paradigm shift for those of us
who have become aware of how weobjectify others to now think of
how am I objectifying myself?
Speaker 2 (16:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
And how am I mistreating my own body, not
just someone else's body?
I know this has been a verypersonal journey for you.
Could you say more about that?
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Yeah, a year ago I threw out my back.
So the week before the launchof my book, the Sex Talk you
Never Got, I threw out my backand my muscle sees up to the
point that I couldn't sit Like Iwas flat on my back and the
assessment was from my physicaltherapist.
(17:19):
This is all induced by stressand a lack of self-care, so I'd
quit exercising self-care.
So I'd quit exercising.
I'd kind of thrown my wholebody into the task of launching
my book and in a way that justwas not humanizing, and my body
(17:39):
talked back to me, as it will,to say hey, remember, you're a
creature, you know we need care.
And so it was a painfullearning lesson.
It was a painful learninglesson and it came with the
grief of like, how did I?
I wrote a book on blessing yourbody and the lover within, and
(18:00):
I threw out my back.
Talk about needing to smokewhat you sell.
As I said, practice what youpreach.
And so it's been a year ofrecovering my workout routine.
So I'm back to CrossFit.
My body feels like a goldenretriever that's gotten back
(18:21):
into being able to play.
It's weird to find the voice ofmy body again and it's
interesting to notice in theworkout, like my body's ready to
go and it wants to be workedout and thankfully, my back is
back, so to speak.
It's healed.
And, yeah, your body will talkto you, your life will talk to
(18:58):
you.
You know, back to the lifeassessment.
Things will stop working.
Relationships will start totalk back to you and say, hey,
where are you?
I don't feel like you're here.
Or your body will say, hey, youneed to think about us.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
I love that concept of your body talking, listening
to your body.
Sometimes we talk about theimportance of listening to your
body but sometimes guys havetrouble with that.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
You know, I wish that I had had the presence of mind
to say body, what are you sayingto me?
And that's sometimes a practice, literally I will ask clients
to do in session, actuallyregularly.
You know, what are you?
Just, what are you feeling inyour body?
Can you put your hand on thatplace and can you ask your body
what it's saying to you?
(19:45):
What does your body want to sayto you?
That can feel somewhatsubjective and like what, but
you're trying to get out of yourhead.
You're trying to listen towhat's my body saying.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
I love the question.
If that feeling could talk,what would it say?
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Yes.
And so then, listening to whatyour body is saying to you,
trying to follow that, trying tohonor that.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
So, instead of just pushing and working hard and
trying to get things done usingmy body, actually develop a
relationship with my body.
Yes, that's humanizing.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Yes, and even you know it may not be.
We're talking about physicalactivity, right, mine was very
much talking to me about needingplay and physical activity and
the joy of a workout.
For some reason, my body likesCrossFit, I don't know why.
You know I'm not the20-year-old with his shirt off
pumping iron, but I'm there andI have fun.
(20:45):
But you know, it could be likeother times, like loneliness.
It could be a dream you have.
That is kind of haunting andasking like is there?
(21:06):
something I'm not listening toin my daily life that needs to
haunt me at night.
Or it could be you've acted outwith porn, or you're waking up
from being a bit hung over, youhad one too many drinks.
You know, there's probably aplace for some confession, right
, but I think it's so easy tomove on and just say, well, that
was bad behavior and confess itas sin, and I move on and I
(21:30):
would say don't waste thosemoments, don't waste your sin,
so to speak, right as like stopand say, well, what did I really
need?
What was I trying to accomplish?
As you say so well, drew, right, pornography is not a problem,
it's an attempt at a solution.
I mean, it is a problem in somany ways, but it's experienced
(21:51):
as an attempt as a solution.
And so, to help you start toread, what was I really needing
or wanting that was driving metowards this that I struggled to
embody well, or to listen towell, to engage those needs.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
Sam, you talked about repenting.
How do you practically repentfrom objectifying yourself?
Speaker 2 (22:16):
yeah, there's this like sweet spot you have to hit
in repentance.
This is true of probably allsin, but particularly here.
You know, there's the sweetswap between self-hatred and
self-pity called self-compassion.
And so self-hatred, you know,is the I need to beat myself up,
I need to be mean to myself insome way, and the horror stories
(22:41):
of, like, church fathers that,would you know, maybe even
castrated themselves or threwthemselves into thorn bushes,
right, that is self-hatred.
It is a harming of the body,not a coming home to it.
But then there is self-pitywhich is I couldn't help myself,
I'm just struggling, so bad,right, that tends to be where we
(23:02):
get some of that entitlement.
That's actually not kindness,right, it's actually just
keeping you from growing andyour body, your being, wants to
become more and your naturalstate want to grow.
So you know, that self-pityplace is, well, I can't help it.
(23:22):
You know, I've had a hard life,I've had a hard day, I have a
hard marriage and I just needrelief and I'm I deserve it, I
earned it, right.
That's kind of that self-pityvoice, right.
But then there's this sweetspot of self-compassion which is
, again, I'm a creature worthyof care and I even have a
(23:44):
responsibility to myself, tocare well for my presence and my
being, and that involvespersonal growth.
It involves attending to myneeds.
It involves even things likeeating good food, getting good
rest right.
The humility of just sleepright Can actually be a form of
repentance.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Let's talk about the workshop you led at the Husband
Material Retreat, where youguided us into that incredible
time with the men of HusbandMaterial community, like such
good dudes.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
We had chocolate and strawberries and we stopped and,
rather than just consume,consume right, which is what we
can do.
That's one of those other kindof dissociative things.
It's just food, food, food,food, food, and not really stop
to even taste the food.
So we spent time savoring apiece of chocolate, letting the
(24:45):
piece of chocolate melt, orsavoring a strawberry and
letting the kind of waves ofdifferent tastes as the
strawberry passed to differentparts of our tongue, right Like
that practice of slow sensuality.
We did smell exercises, so someessential oils.
It was incredible.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
How countercultural for a group of men to get
together saying we want to growand to do so through our five
senses and through lying down ina field of wildflowers.
Senses, and through lying downin a field of wildflowers
(25:26):
listening to the sound of thebreeze and the pine trees, I
mean this is part of what Godwants to give us.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Yes, and I was so moved at just the maturity of
the men at the husband materialretreat because they were open
to returning to their bodies ina sensual way and it's not
something we talk about right inour the culture of men that you
(26:01):
know the hunter types.
You know a lot of times whatthey say they love about hunting
is it's just permission to goto the woods and sit and enjoy
the pleasure of the sounds andthe views and the beauty.
It's armed solitude.
It's what they've said.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
Amazing and that's a really helpful distinction to
name solitude and isolation astwo different things.
Isolation is putting myself ina cage.
Solitude is putting mydistractions in a cage, and that
is connection.
This connection we're talkingabout with God, with nature,
(26:40):
with ourselves, with each other.
That is the opposite ofaddiction.
I love that distinction.
Sam, what is your favoritething about coming back to your
body and healing fromobjectifying yourself?
Speaker 2 (26:52):
I'm going to try to put words to some the felt
experience of that because ithas a definite feel and I hope
that this resonates with others.
But there's like a fullness oflife.
Life feels more experiential.
I feel more present to littleeveryday moments of beauty or
(27:15):
play or awe.
There's like a brightness tolife.
I just feel like my senses aremore available to both the world
and to God.
And then I think also that thereally wonderful byproduct is,
you know, the more you honoryour own dignity, it's just
(27:37):
natural and implicit that youwill honor the dignity of others
.
And so I find that when I givemyself a chance to read or pray
or even just take a little extratime to enjoy a moment of
beauty or savor my food, that Iam able to be more patient with
(27:58):
my family.
I'm able to see little momentswhere my own boys are in just a
moment of embodiment.
I have a son, my youngest son,who loves when I wake him up in
the morning.
He loves to have my wife comehelp him get dressed, and he's
(28:19):
eight, so he doesn't need itright, it's not necessary, but I
know it's just for connectionand I think having the awareness
of my own body has let menotice.
Oh, that's him wanting a momentof relationship and it would be
so easy to push him.
No, buddy, you just got to getdressed.
We got to start getting readyfor school and objectify him
(28:42):
right.
You need to get in the car.
You need to get to schoolbecause I need to get to work.
Right.
Can you start to hear?
I could miss that and I'm sograteful that God has given me
the eyes to see.
No, that's a moment ofembodiment for him.
So one of the greatest gifts ofthis freedom is it is
(29:04):
inherently going to help.
You want to treat people withdignity, relationship,
connection, you know, in a waythat's just flows out of your
own love and self-love.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Yeah, that's so true.
Thank you, Sam.
Thank you, Drew.
It's good to be here.
It's great to have you back.
Guys, if you want to connectwith Sam, go to samjolmancom.
You can find more links in theshow notes.
Definitely get a copy of theSex Talk you Never Got.
If you haven't, and if you haveread the book, please review it
(29:40):
on Amazon.
And, regardless of whether ornot you do all these things,
always remember you are God'sbeloved son.
In you he is well-pleased.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.