EP 1,000 - Chris Mullin (2x Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Famer, 5x NBA All Star, 2x Olympic Gold Medalist, Dream Team Member & NYC Legend) - I AM RAPAPORT: STEREO PODCAST

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
The I Am Rappaport Stereo Podcast Live. You're down with Rappaport,
Yes I am, I'm a Rappaport, Yes I am I
am a Rappaport. Yes, I am dam a Rapperport. Yes
I am at a tune in. I am Rappaport dot
com because every single podcast, you know, he drops bombs.

(00:25):
I've seen him on set a season Vetman, True Town,
catch him on his way across Fit rocking the New Balance.
He asked me to do the track because you know,
I rom a leak. But I'm just waiting for the
Robert the Neiro line of the week, Breakfast the Champions
host the Bagel, Cream, Cheese and lock. This is I
Am Rappaport. The show never stopped. Mike catch him Mountain
Public stretching his knees. But if you don't listen to
the show, yo, wig up, please wigga please. I podcast

(00:52):
Senior Michael Rappaport, What up? It's your boy? Dj e
FN Crazy Hood Productions, one half of the Drink Champs podcast,
and I just want to say salute and congratulations for
your one thousandth episode. And that's huge man. You know
trust me, I know being in the podcast game and
we could only wish and hope to get to a

(01:13):
thousand like you. So so shout out to the I
Am Rappaport Podcast and everybody in your team. Congratulations man
from Drink Champs, DJ E FM. Peace. This is a

(01:47):
cold opening of the one thousandth I Am Rappaport Stereo Podcast.
This is episode one thousand of the I M Rappaport
Stereo Podcast, the world's most disruptive podcast. My name is

(02:07):
Michael Rappaport a k a. The Gringo Man Dingo aka
the Sultan of Sniff aka the White Chocolateito aka White
Magic Mike aka White Mike aka the Jewish Jakelamatta a
k A. Mister New York a ka Mister two one

(02:29):
two aka the Disruptive Warrior. And what can I say?
I never thought that podcasting would take it this far.
This is the man, This is crazy. It's the one
thousandth episode of the podcast and I got very very

(02:50):
very exciting special guest Hall of Famer, NBA Hall of
Famer Icon two times. I'm Dream Team Olympic gold Medalist,
New Yorker, great New Yorker, great guy, someone who I
looked up to before I met him. Chris Mullen from

(03:13):
Saint John's University, from Power Memorial High School, Xaverian High School,
Golden State Warriors, Indiana Pacers joining me on the im
Rappaport Stereo podcast. And it's a fantastic interview with somebody that,
like I said, I really just I mean, sort of

(03:34):
idolized as a kid when I was growing up playing basketball,
and I just wanted to just take a moment to just,
first of all, thank all the listeners. The millions, literally
millions of people have heard the im Rappaport Stereo podcast,
and I just want to first of all, thank all
the fans, the new fans, the old fans, the Day

(03:57):
one fans, the episode one hundred fans, the episode five
hundred fans, the fans we got last week, and all
the fans in between. Started doing the podcast literally on
a whim in twenty fourteen, which is crazy. And when
I think back to twenty fourteen, so much in the

(04:18):
world has changed, so much in my life has changed personally,
so much has changed professionally, and I just appreciate the support.
I appreciate the patience from the fans. I appreciate all
the people that have gotten to meet. I appreciate every

(04:38):
single person who's ever stopped me in an airport, in
a Starbucks on the street, who have supported the podcast,
who've listened to the podcast. It really means a lot.
It really, really really means a lot. And like I said,
you know, when we started doing the podcast, podcasts were
just not what they are today. Not everybody even knew

(05:01):
what a podcast was. It's so cool to have been
doing it for going on eight years and we're just
getting started. You know, if you've been listening from the beginning,
you've known the ebbs, the flows, the highs, the lows,
the controversy, the guests and everything in between. It's just

(05:21):
been so much fun. But we've done a thousand episodes
and I was talking to the Dust Brothers, who have
been with me from every episode, every incident, every subject,
every edit, making me sound great when I didn't feel great,
making me sound great, probably when I didn't sound great.

(05:44):
It's been a true team effort with my guys Miles
Davis who's Asian, and Jordan Winter, the Dust Brothers aka
the Bleach Brothers, literally holding me down every single episode.
Sound snaf foods. You know, when I've been in shitty moods,

(06:05):
when I've been in good moods, when I've been, you know,
in weird locations. It's just everything that they've been rocking
with me from day one, and their lives have changed,
they've grown, and you know, we've grown together, and the
fans we you know, I've grown with you, and hopefully
you've grown with me. But I was tripping because we

(06:27):
were talking about doing a thousand episodes, and we're saying,
how many things in your life have you actually done
one thousand times? Like have you played one thousand basketball games?
Have you been to the gym a thousand times? Have
you seen a thousand movies? You know, they talk about
ten thousand hours being the marker of becoming an expert.

(06:53):
I don't know if that applies for podcasting, because I
feel like I'm somewhat of an expert. But I feel
like I have plenty of room to grow and to
improve and to just continue to kick ass and continue
to disrupt. And as you know, when I say disruptive
doesn't necessarily mean bad, it doesn't necessarily mean outrageous. It

(07:14):
just means to for me, what disruption means for me.
On this episode, it just means to be yourself just
means to be honest to yourself, to be true to yourself,
to be trusting of yourself. Because in any platform, whether
it's show business, which is what I am only familiar with,

(07:35):
but in any in any business and any you know, life,
everybody has their trials and tribulations, and the most important
thing is to stay true to yourself and stay truly,
truly disruptive. But I am the Cal Ripken junior of podcasting,
one thousand fucking episodes. Cal Ripkin, Michael Rappaport, Michael Rappaport,

(07:58):
Cal Ripken. And the other day I said, I don't
think we took a week off, and the Dust Brothers
corrected me. They said, We've never taken a week off.
There's been some weeks where just a couple in eight
years we've only done one episode. But the majority of
the time, it's like clockwork Tuesday morning, Friday morning. You know,

(08:21):
disruption is coming live and direct. I know you hear
the sirens. That's because I'm in the og gloom tomb
here in New York City. But we've done it all.
We've had. We've had a bunch of weeks where we
did three episodes. We had a one week where we
did four episodes and I wish I could podcast every day.

(08:44):
I do, I really do, because I have so much
to say. And you know, like I said at the start,
you know, it's the fans, It's you guys, It's the listeners.
It's the people that have been rocking with the show,
whether you've been rocking from day one or you know,
last week, because we pick up new fans, new listeners
every single week. You know. We obviously we have the

(09:05):
Wrappa Pack. In the United States, we have the Rappa
Pack and Buffalo, we have the Rappa Pack in Texas,
Wrappa Pack, California, of course, the New York Wrappa Pack.
We have the Rappa Packs. Abroad we have the Brazilian
Wrappa Pack, the Saudi Arabian Wrappa Pack, the Polish Wrappa Pack,
we have the Australian Rappa Pack, we have the New
Zealand Wrappa Pack, the French France contingent, the Canadian Rapper Pack,

(09:30):
and I'm forgetting the Mexico Wrappa Pack. The Rappa Pack
community is a world wide thing because what the Iron
Rapports tereo podcast is a worldwide phenomenon. It started as
a worldwide phenomenon, and it continues to gain speed and
gain momentum. And some of the guests, you know, the

(09:53):
Danny Iello, the late great Danny Iello. So many people
have been illoed, so many of people have gotten the
Will Hutch treatment. We've had Marv Albert on the podcast.
We've had Mark Ruffalo, Regina Hall, Juliet Lewis, Jake Lamata,
I'm the Jake Clamata of podcasting, Jake Lamata before he

(10:15):
passes on the podcast, Martin Scorsese, so many athletes, Warren
sapp Lamar old him, so many just great exciting moments,
you know, Alec Baldwin, Shooter McGavin, Chris Hansen, and there's
so much more to come. And I just wanted to

(10:37):
just wax a little poetically because I just truly appreciate,
like I said, everybody letting me evolve, letting me grow,
letting the show grow, letting the show let its hair down,
and continuing to try, literally every single episode to give
blood on the mic, because that's what my intention is,

(10:58):
to make it pure, early, personal and entertaining every single
show because it is a show. It is a show,
and it is a show for you the people. Okay,
because if I'm podcasting and no one's listening, where do
you want me bellevue preferably in a straight jacket hopped

(11:21):
up on some of that one flow over the cuckoo's nest. Anyway,
without further ado, Episode one thousand with my Man special guest.
This is a great interview guys. This is a dope, dope,
dope interview. Special guest from Brooklyn, New York. Chris mull

(11:41):
and Miles Jordan aka the Bleached Brothers aka the Dust Brothers.
Start this one thousandth episode off with something real nice.
Start this puppy off with something real loud, but most importantly,
start the one thousandth episode off with something Miles dig deep,
give me something real real fucking see. I am rapping
port Stereo pockets ligety. Let's fucking go be no fact

(12:06):
check it do that? Ain't no fact check it? Oh yeah,
we always go wall door without pain, no fact checking.
I don't want to know whar you're little bit attain
no check it? All right, I am rapp ports Stereo podcast.

(12:30):
Chris Mullen, Brooklyn Royalty. Humble. We're gonna get the humbleness
out of him. They got Vinnie Barberino, they got Tony Manero,
they got Chris Mullin, they got Jay Z, they got
Biggie Smalls, they got Chris Mullen. Brooklyn's finest, one of

(12:52):
Brooklyn's finest. Don't forget do a die bed sty I
am Mike Tyson. The list goes on. But the point,
the point that I may mully, is that we talk
about this Brooklyn, especially Brooklyn basketball. For some reason, your
name sometimes gets left off the list or you're just
squeezed in there. So I know you're humble. I know
you don't like talking about your career. I never get

(13:14):
to see you talk so much about your career, and
I think you're humble. You're low key, which I respect.
We're gonna knock all the humility. We're gonna go back
in the days. I can only talk about so many
things with you on the im Wrap hors Tereo podcast.
But I've always been a fan and I want to
jump right into it. You grew up in Brooklyn, New York.

(13:38):
The high school basketball scene when you were tenth, eleven,
twelfth grade. There's so many players in New York City
at the time. This is when New York truly was
king despite when anybody wants to say now they say
New York isn't the best and all that stuff, But
talk about the high school basketball Brooklyn team. Who is there,
who are the players? And how you amerged at the time,

(14:01):
because it wasn't social media where you connect. How did
you emerge to play for Riverside Church? How did you
emerge from your neighborhood to sort of be that guy
that that was moving around your white dude in New
York City in the late seventies early eighties. Yeah, Michael,
my pleasure to be with you, man. I love being
on your podcast. Big fan of goes as well. Yeah.
So so without like going back, you got you gotta

(14:22):
get the history a little bit right. The history of
New York City basketball goes way way back. Billy Cunningham,
Lenny Wilkins, Kareem tiny Ocherball, Connie Hawkins. You know, this
is a rich, rich tradition. So it was born in
bread in the streets, right in the parks. You know,
we didn't have access to Jim's like they do now.

(14:45):
As you said, a lot of your reputation was gained
on a daily basis by word of mouth, but how
you played, not the junk you spoke and all that
stuff that was part of it maybe, but you had
to go up there and show up every single day
because to gain your reputation, to gain your respect. For me,
you know, I grew up in Flatbush pretty much, you know,

(15:07):
Irish Catholic, White Italian Julia. You know, we all had
all little neighborhoods. But not until I went to high
school in Manhattan did I kind of branch out and
get exposed to different style of basketball, different cultures, kids
with different upbringings than me. So I went to pal
Memorial Academy, which was on sixty first in Amsterdam, legendary school.

(15:30):
Obviously Kareem len Elmore had some Jap tremble, some incredible
basketball history in that school alone. And that league was
Rice High School, Mount Saint Michael, Saint Raymond's all hollows,
the Bronx Manhattan League was. It was really really tough league.
My older brother Rod went there, so that I kind

(15:51):
of followed in his footsteps. It was, you know, big
commute for me from Floppush up there. Took um, you know,
like ninety minutes. That alone was an education for me.
Jumping on the you know b forty one bust down
Flaba Chavin you jumping on the number three train up
to you know forty second Street, trans over to one
train to go to you know, fifty nine Street, Columbus Circle,

(16:13):
walking over the power. So at that point, you know,
now all my friends were not from Brooklyn. I had
friends from Harlem, the Bronx Hell's Kitchen. So uh. Mary
Whalley was a teammate of mine at Poal Memorial, a
few other guys on I never I resented him when
he did the Kiss of Death in the Garden with
the Spurs when they won the championship. Yeah, he was

(16:35):
nasty man. He actually and this is he did not
appreciate him doing the kiss of death. Well, that wasn't cool.
It was a kiss of death though with the rockets
it was Yeah, it was rockets at Phoenix. That that
was Phoenix to get to the wind of getting to
the final. I was on the Western Conference finals. Yeah,
that wasn't cool. He didn't need to do that. He did,
but he did win a championship at the Garden with
Kenny Smith, two New York City kids. Yeah, I get that,

(16:59):
but I so I resented the kiss of death in
the You gotta understand Mario's background, who actually was cut
from our freshman team, so he carried that forever. He's
got that chip on his shoulder to this day. From
ninety six in Amsterdam, you know, the hood I got it,
so they focused on you. Yet we were power and
you know, I'm playing with these guys in the city
and a few guys are playing at Riverside Church. My

(17:21):
older brother Rod had played there at Riverside Church. So
my dad, you know, you said, we're talking late seventies,
early eighties. New York's pretty rough place, subways, you know,
pretty rough from fourteen to fifteen. The fact that my
brother Rod went up there and had no problems made
a little kay for me to go. So he paved
the way for me. He was the trailblazer for me to,

(17:41):
you know, to go up there and play Riverside. And
now you're talking about in that day and they just
only two AAU teams. The word A that term was
in a round Navia. It was just it was an
all star team basically, so it wasn't twelve on every block.
There was basically twenty four kids playing in that AU system,
and what were the teams Riverside Church and the Gauchos,

(18:02):
which was based out of the Bronx too. You know,
so if you the top, there was somewhat tryout's invitation only.
And so anyway through power, I wound up going to
Riverside Church. And really that's when I really got exposed
to a different style of play, a different level of competition,
trash talk, all those things that you know are synonymous

(18:25):
with New York City basketball, especially up in Harlem, the Bronx,
you know, queens. And so now we're traveling all over.
Some of the guys I played with, we were talking.
We just spoke with Eddie Pickney, you know, he's one
of my dear friends, ed Pinky. When you were a teenager, easy,
Ed Pickney played with him. He played both he played
Riverside Gallery. Guys would bounce back and forth. One of

(18:46):
the teams I played for a Riverside Five of those
guys went to Iona College. Who are they? Rory Grimes,
Tony Hargraves, Troy Trusdale, all New York City legends through
high school. Steve burt Right, big time scorer, played in
the NBA. Gary Springer, who at that time was the
number one high school player in the country, right, and

(19:07):
he went to iona college. So there was a point
in time, and you talked about the high schools, right,
So things have changed quite a bit now. But we
actually went to city schools and stayed in the city.
Kids don't even stay in the city for high school anymore.
That's a big difference. So now you're developing rivalries almost
through grade school and you've seen the same guys, and

(19:28):
as you said earlier, you develop your reputation each and
every day. It doesn't last. You have a good game
that doesn't last for two weeks. You had a good
game yesterday, What are you gonna do today? And a
lot of time. For me, a lot of times being
the only white guy, I had to like prove myself
to even come back the next day because if I
played like trash everything, I might not be invited back. So,

(19:52):
you know, looking back, it really prepared me for you know,
bringing it each and every day, which that's what pros do.
Pros bring it every day. Anyone can play good once
in a while, the pros bring it every single day.
And to do that you need not only motivation, a
little pressure on you and that's pressure to go prove

(20:12):
yourself each and every day. You know there's something to
that that you feel, that pressure, that stress to perform.
So when you met with Ed Pinckney, we see one
of the guys outside of the games with the church.
Because pickup games, if you go to different neighborhoods, especially
a white dude, you go to different neighborhoods who was
sort of taking you around the playball. Just pickup games

(20:34):
in different hoods because that's where like dudes with no name,
but they play hard, like New York City street basketball.
Even in mind, like dudes play hard and they might
not even play for a high school team. You're like, yeah,
who is this dude? Oh, he's just that's Jeff. He's nice,
but he doesn't play. Yeah, I used to go. I
had a buddy of mine lived in on twentieth and seventh.

(20:56):
Right when you go down to West Faur Street, the cave,
I play down there. That's straight. You walk on the court,
you win, you stay, you lose, you're done again. You
win five, six, seven games in a row, all of
a suddenly, like yo, this guy could play right, but
you got to come back the next day to do
it again. We'd go to Carmine Street gym that was
indoor gym in the old school. It's almost like a

(21:18):
boxing gym on Carmine Street and play the same thing.
Can you go in and win a bunch of games,
gain your reputation. But with Riverside Church, we were going
to Mitchell Houses where tiny Ocherbo grew up. That was
his tournament. We'd play in El McColl, which was out
in Queens. Someday we played three or four games a

(21:38):
day in different burrows. Right, so a little by little,
you know, in Riverside. I don't think we lost many games,
maybe one. We didn't lose many games. We were going
around all of the burrows. On the train. I used
to meet the van. I used to actually meet the
van on one hundred twenty fifth and the right over
to Tribal Bridge and then I get in that van.
They would take us around. Yeah, So cruising a van

(22:01):
with these guys, getting to know them, it opened up
my eyes to stuffed more than basketball, but also toughened
me up. It was on high alert all the time,
from a competitive standpoint, from a safety standpoint, all those things.
I mean, look him back, I think I learned more
just traveling the city by subway, by bus, by a van,

(22:24):
different neighborhoods, different vibes. I think I learned more in
that period my life than any class I took in
high school or college. I'm sure who were some of
the names besides Ed who were some of the gauchos.
I mean New York basketball at the time, was you know,
Strickland's a little younger than you. I think, yeah, so Pearl,
And talk about Pearl because he passed it. I always think,

(22:47):
just talk about some of the other guys that we
were playing against, playing with so right below me, so
with me, we had Eddie Pickney, Jerry Reynolds, Beatle Washington Beatles,
Pearls brother not his brother was the same. He went
he went to Alexander Hamilton's Okay, yeah, but he was
a heck of a player. Jerry Reynolds was like ahead
of his time. Yeah, Ice Man, Stephan Maberry's older brothers

(23:10):
all were playing at Lincoln at that time. You know,
right before me was Bernardo Albert King. You know. So
there was an incredible amount of players throughout the city.
But right around my time, I went, I want to
go to school in nineteen eighty one, right, and I'm
a freshman sophomore, and we're recruiting these four guards, Mark Jackson,

(23:33):
Kenny Smith, Pearl Washington, and the kid named Kenny Hutchinson,
all incredibly talented cards, all in New York City schools.
Marks at Lachlan Stricks at Truman, Kenny's right down the
block from Saint John's, Kenny Smith that Archbishop Malloy, and
I think Kenny Hutchins is at Benjamin Franklin. So this

(23:54):
is four guys we're recruiting, and at some point, you know,
coach Connorseck is like, you know, whoever signs first, I'm
taken because they're all great, great players. So Mark Jackson
winds up signing with us, and at that point, probably
not the most heralded of those four, right, but wind
up having the greatest career of all of them. Right.
So Walter Berry another guy we wound up signing in

(24:15):
Saint John's. Walter was one of my favorite players because
he was left handed. He had everybody doing that shot
that he did. You know, we'd go up and sort
of why don't you think Walter was able to transcend
into the NBA? Yeah, first of all, he's the one guy.
So this day everyone asked me about you know, if
I'm if I'm back. He was a player of the year,
he was eighty six Player of the Year. Just a

(24:37):
unique game though, and always had huge games against Georgetown,
and like you said, just a unique style, very unorthodox.
Would his shot, he would he would release it at
all different going up and every time he dunked he
would fall down. But to this day that's like everyone's like,
what is that guy Walter Berry doing now? But yeah,

(24:58):
his game did not transition as much because at that
point in time, they had legit bigs because Walter was
what six seven, he's like six to eight, but was
more of a center, played inside, didn't really step out,
didn't really have a jump shot. So at that point
in time, you either big or you played on the premier.
We didn't have that positionless type basketball, right. But he

(25:20):
went overseas, had a great career overseas, and he's just
a really good guy. But a legend, you know, again
in New York City, legend. People always bring his name
up to me all the time. They always want to
know what what the Barry's doing. Legend You went to
Saint John's. And there's so many questions I could ask you.
I can only ask you so many questions in one pocket.
You went to Saint John's. What other schools were recruiting you?

(25:42):
What other schools were you considering? Yeah, so I visited
coming out of when I was a senior in high school,
I visited a Villanova, Duke, Virginia, and Louisville. That were
my four visits. And basically I had a unique relationship
with coach Kona Second. I had gone to his basketball
camp since I was twelve years old, so I knew
him as a coach, I knew him as a person.

(26:03):
So when I took those visits, and I had great visits,
they were all very nice. But in my mind when
I went on those weekend visits, I was always looking
through I have something here that I don't have at home.
You already had this. Yeah, I knew Saint John's was.
It was a great place. It's a good fit for me.
I loved the coach. So every time I went, you know,
for that weekend, I was like, Wow, this is really nice.

(26:24):
But then I got home by Monday or Tuesday at
war off, like I was like, I'm good Man, I
don't need to go anywhere else. Coach k was his
first year at Duke, his first recruiting year. Really impressive
my mom, I think looking back, I think she kind
of wanted me to go there to a degree. They
didn't have that pedigree yet. I hadn't become Duke yet.
Coach k wasn't Coach k yet. Yeah, so it was

(26:47):
you know, I kind of just really it was really
coach kind a second. That's why I went there. It
wasn't you know, at that point in time, Saint John's
it was a commuter school. It was basically going to
you know, extension of high school. So it wasn't the
facility is It wasn't you know, all the raw raw stuff.
It was my relationship with Coach Kaca because even when
I was just there, when you were back at Saint John's,

(27:08):
I'm like, this is Saint John's. Yeah, Like so I
imagine when you played there it was like even less
like yeah, because there was no big deal. It's not.
It's a small school, yeah, especially back in the eighties
where it was commuter school. So when you know, three
nothing now there is, but there was not, But it
was it was did you live at home when you
play there. Now we got apartments near school, so that

(27:29):
was nice, but it was not your typical college experience.
But it just shows you the power and the trust
and the love that we all have for coach Kanaseca.
That's what made it work because if when you went
on the other visits, there was way more attractive things
at those other campuses, but the thing that kept bringing
players to that university was coach lu Konnaseca. Right, because
this is in Queens. No disrespect to Queens, but it's

(27:51):
like it's like out there, Yeah, let me jump into this.
The Big East at the time, which is no more.
There's been documentaries, movies. There should be a Ken Burns
twelve part documentary. ESPN did a great Big East thing.
We all the fans reminisce about it. I'm sure the
players reminisce about it. It was such a unique time.

(28:14):
There was so many good players in so many the
Carrier Dome, you know, you'd see these games on ESPN.
Villanova I didn't even know where the eleven twelve years
old and white. Where the fuck is Villanova? You know,
in Boston College. When did you realize that the Big
East was becoming a thing, and what were those games like? Yeah,

(28:34):
so you know, growing up, I would watch Saint John's,
but they weren't on TV all the time. Local TV, Yeah,
local TV. Maybe on a Saturday afternoon ECAC Game of
the Week or something like that. But again, I had
this relationship with coach Connesseca beyond you know, college basketball
things like that. I got to know him as a
you know, as a person. But the perfect storm right

(28:56):
ESPN S thoughts In nineteen seventy nine, the Big East's
f by Dave Gavitt, who was the head coach at Providence,
your basketball visionary, and he basically saw this opportunity to
create a local league. You know, you had those Big
Football League, the Big Ten and the Big you know
ab out here at that point it was probably the

(29:17):
PAC eight, which is the Pac twelve now. But he
had this vision of creating a local East Coast basketball
only conference, which a lot of you know, coaches and
I think athletic directors were, you know, not too keen
on it at the first because you can make your
own schedule, if you get your twenty wins, you get

(29:38):
in the tournament, you kind of controlled your own destiny
where now all of a sudden, your schedules carved out
and you're playing all these great teams you know, home
and home, and you know it puts a little more pressure.
So I think at first it was like an unconventional
theory to these coaches, but it wound up being the
best thing for all those schools. So nineteen seventy nine,
it starts, you know, it's Saint John's Syracuse, and we

(29:59):
know all the teams and all the legendary coaches, Coach Karaseca,
Jim Beheim. I mean, it's literally like it really is.
And when you look back at that documentary on ESPN
really because it's like this spaghetti guy in Villanova, John
Thompson with his presidence, Beheim's nuts, Karna Ska's nuts, I mean,
these are personnelity. But what it did, Michael, was it

(30:20):
gave players like myself another reason to stay home. Right,
you didn't have to go away to get national exposure.
So and so the perfect storm was ESPN's growing. They
need content, this league's formed, it's right in their backyard. Boom,
ESPN Big Monday, it made they made each other. ESPN made,

(30:45):
uh the Big East, but the Big East put ESPN
on the map, right, and it exploded. It was the timing,
which we do not control, right do. You always have
to be prepared for opportunity, but you never know when
it's gonna come. So all of a sudden, look, the
Big East had its eighty eighty one. So I got
school name. It was two three years old. Right. They
had some good play Louis all who you know rest

(31:06):
in Pec he just passed away, Roosevelt Bowie, you know,
Reggie Carter, George Chown, had some great players, John Dorn.
They had some great, beautiful games. And you know they're
playing at Manley Fieldhouse before they carried dome. So it
was it was in motion. But this business connection with
ESPN and the Big East just exploded and the players
and but also yeah, so Patrick Ewing, who's a number

(31:29):
one player in the country a year year? Wait year
did he come ye? Same year in nineteen eighty one.
What was the first time you saw Patrick play? First
time I saw him in person was at the McDonald's
All American game. Who else was in that game? Michael Jordan,
Bill Wennington, Wait a second, wait a second, your high
school game? Okay, you fucked me up. With that. Okay,

(31:52):
start again, Michael Jordan, Patrick Ewing, Bill Wennington, one of
the pros, Adrian Branch, who was the MVP of that game.
West Coast was full of UCLA and Nigel Miguel full
of UCLA guys. But that's the first time I was
with them Patrick. I had played against Patrick in the
Boston Shootout, which was a tournament post high school. I

(32:16):
played for Riverside Church and we played the Boston team
which Patrick was on. On that team was Pearl Washington,
Dwayne Johnson, myself, Jerry Reynolds had a nasty dunk compass
and art coach was Tiny Oucherbald for that tournament, and
the Boston team had Patrick, Dwayne McLain, Gary McClain, the

(32:38):
guys that played at Villanova. Their coach was Dave Cowens. Wow.
So that you know, that was the first time I
played against him, right, and then obviously we all knew
who he was. He was number one playing the country.
But getting back to the Big East, it gave him
a reason to stay in the East. Coat you didn't
have to go to Carolina to UCLA to get this platform.

(32:59):
So Patrick actually visited Boston College. He was from Massachusetts.
There he was from Cambridge, Ridge, Ridge and Latin High
School in Massachusetts. He visited BC when obviously went to Georgetown.
Eddie Pickney, right, another great, great high school, big time
recruit went to Villanova. Me and Bill Winnington went to
Saint John. All of a sudden, this Big East is

(33:22):
keeping their star players home. They're not leaving the East Coast,
right And you know, the first time I really felt
the impact of this exposure on ESPN was, you know,
after my college where I come out here to Golden
State and all the kids know who I am. They
all watched the you know, out here on the West coast,

(33:44):
the Big Monday comes on at four pm. They rushed
home from school and they watched The Big East. Right now,
all of a sudden, and you saw in that documentary
Jim Behian goes, I fly into LA to recruit a kid,
and the baggage thinking, oh, you're Pearl Washington's coach. So
that the exposia and the popularity of just exploded. And

(34:04):
it was a phenomenon the way it came together so quickly.
So I think it started seventy nine, in nineteen eighty five,
three or four Big East teams were in the final four, Villanova, Georgetown,
and Saint John's. The fourth team was at that time
known as Memphis State University right now the University of
Memphis now again, I can't get to everything. We've mentioned

(34:27):
Pearl a few times. He's one of my favorite players.
How good was Pearl in high school? What was so
unique about him going into college? Just give a little
hole manage to the great Pearl Washington, no doubt, Dwayne
Pearl Washington. I met him when he was a freshman
in high school, really, and at that point in time,
he had an NBA game already. He was physically advanced,

(34:49):
more than anybody's strong lower body quick He had a
unique combination of strength and quickness, an incredible ball handling.
You know, he had to Tim Hardaway crossover before everyone
knew who Tim Hardaway was. He In my opinion, he
brought the crossover to mainstream because Tim Nick van Hexel.
Tim led to Allen Iverson and so forth and so on,

(35:12):
and Tim talks about the influence of Pearl, right And
that's why I always like when you talk about point coach,
when you talk about dribbling, when you talk about any
of this crossover stuff. What it's done now, like it
should be cold almost now. The Pearl Washington move. Yeah,
he revolutionized the ball handling. You think about it, Mike,
and you watched those Georgetown teams. They were that Georgetown

(35:34):
team the years out they were an NBA team. They
had five or six NBA players on their roster. Nasty,
tough defense, first and foremost full court man a man.
Pearl would walk through that thing like they were standing still.
And you know, the Georgetown press was something everybody feared
and you had a press breaker. Syracuse just gave the
ball a Pearl instead of get out of my way.

(35:55):
I'm dribbling through this thing. I got this and then
you know he Georgetown play his own which they never
did and usually against his zone you needed shooting. Pearl
just dribbled through it and finished over the top. So
he was a nasty and he's so ahead of his time,
you know. I mean when we when we would play
Syracuse and coach connessec would, you know, go over the

(36:18):
scanner he put on the board. He would jokingly say it,
but almost he had like somewhat he goes this guy Pearl,
he's just a different type player. He goes I swear
to God, I think I coached against him in the
ABA like ten years ago. That's how long. By the
time he was in eighth grade, he was so mature
as a player, and you knew so much about him. Again,

(36:38):
pre social media. It was all by word of mouth
and by him going to different parts of the city
and just killing in the parks and just gaining this reputation.
And he backed it up. And he was a great,
great guy. He was loved the game. He was charismatic,
I mean way beyond his years on and off the court. Really,

(36:58):
he was a you know, a guy loved It was
sad to see, you know, what happened to him, But
my felt, Me and Ed Pickney went to that funeral together.
So that's great. Now, when you mentioned your high school
all American, we just skirted over some guy Michael Sea,
some guy at that time, who is Michael Jordan? Was

(37:47):
he any better? Like, you're all American? You guys are
all young. You gotta eagos. Everybody's from all over the country.
You're not growing up watching them on Instagram at that
moment when you're a high school all American? Who is
this George kid? Yeah, so much is he any better
than anybody else. Well, first you see the name Michael
Jordan magazines as a first team All American or whatever,

(38:07):
and see Wilmington, North Carolina, Like okay, like what, like, right,
you're the best in Wilmington. Yeah, you're willing from New
York City Wilming to North Carolina. Gave me a break,
but you asked me. The first time I saw Patrick,
The first time I saw Michael physically was at that
McDonald's All American game in nineteen eighty one in Wichita, Kansas.
And at those games, it's you know, it's after the season,

(38:29):
it's just a showcase. You have some walk through practices,
you know. I remember getting to Wichita and you know,
had like nine am practice. So by the time I
got in the fly you get up there, you kind
of tired. Everyone's sitting on the bench just kind of like, okay,
we're gonna have like a little walk through. And there's
this guy out there just grabbed the basketball, is going
up and down full court by himself, dunking and running.

(38:52):
I'm like, whoa, Like what is this guy doing? Like
this is kind of insane, the athleticism and early in
the morning, and that was Michael. In that particular game,
he had a great He had like thirty I think
at that time was the highest he had thirty maybe
thirty five points. He did not get the MVP, which
later on he used as motivation. Jesus, these are one

(39:15):
of these. Well, Adrian Branch got the MVP. Who aren't
going to Maryland? So then now they're in the ACC
conference together. Yeah, it didn't work out too good for Adrian.
So that was one of those that's one of those things.
Michael got them. He was clearly MVP. He did not
get it, but he used that. You know how Michael
was historically known for using these snubs as motivation. That

(39:36):
was one one that's never been that's probably an outtake
from the last. That's leg that's legit. Did he seem
like a great athlete or a very very very good
athlete who could play ball. Like when you just think
about that memory, and it's hard to because you played
against him, played with him, but like at that time
when you saw him, like could you even fathom that
he was so McDonald's All American game? You know, then

(40:01):
he goes obviously goes to North Carolina. I played against
him twice when he was in college, played with him
in the eighty four Olympics. But you talk about, you
know when I first saw him. I'm friends of mine,
you know, tell me to this day. We remember when
you came back from Wichita. You're saying that you saw
the best player you've ever seen before, and we were like, yo,

(40:22):
They're like really, like all those guys you play with
in New York and all those guys in the Big
East and you know whatever these how was this guy
the best? So I don't remember saying it, but people
say they said you came back like, yo, this guy
is different. So you asked me what said him apart
was Yes, his athleticism was off the chunk, the greatest
athlete in the gym, but was really fundamentally sound. Now,

(40:44):
if you think about it, you watched Michael Jordan's highlights,
and you see the sick dunks, you know, just the
you know, the nasty dunks over people and just phenomenal
clutch shots. But if you watch that entire possession, he
does something fundamentally sound, you know, perfect denial defense, a

(41:05):
good week side help. He very fundamentally sound basketball player.
He moved without the basketball beautifully, playing at North Carolina.
You know a lot of people said the only person
that held him down was Dean Smith. But also to me,
he was world coaching high school and at North Carolina.
And at North Carolina, he also played with star players.
He played with James Worthy, he played with Sam Perkins,

(41:25):
so he understood the team game yet had that incredible
athletic ability, but the knowledge in the field for the
game with him without the basketball. So you put all
that together and you got Michael Jordan and incredibly competitive
beyond compare. That was real. Yeah still is if you

(41:50):
see him now, like it's something. Go yeah, golf, You're
gonna try and take your lungs. Man. Now. We talked
about Pearl, We talked about these other guys. I want
to talk about you. Where was your head at in
terms of playing in the NBA your freshman, sophomore year,
and your workouts were legendary too, Like if Instagram existed

(42:12):
when you were in high school, your workouts would You'd
be like one of these guys would be like, here
was his workouts? Because I remember when I was in
the eighth grade. I don't have to do the math,
but there was an article about you in the New
York Times, and they talked about your workouts. Twofold questions.
Where was your head in terms of the reality of

(42:33):
playing in the NBA. You're a kid from Brooklyn, You're
playing in Saint John's. But also talk to me about
what you did when no one was around in the
gym to compete at the level you compete in because
you weren't that quick. I bring slow as molasses. You dunked.
The last time I show you dunked the ball, Saint
John's was blowing out Syracuse. In carried them. You bounced it.

(42:55):
It was fancy. It was the fanciest Chris Mullen player.
You bounce yourself and dunk, and if it had been
on Instagram, the world would have stopped like it was
one of those things like I didn't even know this
fucking guy could touch the net. But just talk to
me about your workouts and where your head was at
in terms of playing in the NBA. Yeah, so, Michael,
that goes back to um. You know, I was blessed

(43:16):
to have a great family around me. You know, my
older brother was an incredible athlete. I followed in his footsteps.
The neighborhood I grew up in We played every sport.
We swam, we were on a swim team, We played
little league baseball, we played stickball, we played where football,
we played bounce ball, we played stup ball. Everything was
around sports. So whether it be you know, and my

(43:37):
dad used to say that a lot of those games
that I played as a kid really helped my hand
eye coordination, being ambidexterious, you know, doing all those street games.
In a way, there's there's a transfer of that, you know.
Now kids they get so specific with one sports. It
was cool growing up and playing all those different sports.
But I was blessed to have a great family but

(43:58):
an incredibly great coaches at a young age, not only
the way they taught me fundamentally how to play the
game of basketball, but why I was playing. I was
not playing to necessarily get to the NBA. I was
playing and I was taught practice habits at a young
age to get better that day, which sounds simple and

(44:20):
sounds kind of obvious, but that's not the deal now.
The deal now is to get to that make that money,
whatever that materialist same thing is, and there's an endpoint there.
I still enjoy the game of basketball, and I do
believe because that was the way I was introduced to it,
the way I was taught it. So I lived. I

(44:41):
lived on Troy Avenue. It was one block of Flapp
of Chavenue and on Flapper Chavue and Flatlands. It was
a school called Saint Thomas Aquinas. That was my grade school.
So I could walk up there in one minute. My coach,
the janitor, this guy named Wally Dean, gave me a
key of the gym. But the deal they made was
when I went in there, I had to work on

(45:02):
my game. I wasn't in there to be fucking around,
you know, it wasn't in there to be bringing other
people in there and you know, sneaking all this shit.
If we're going to give you the key, but you
need to work on your game. And I would write
some stuff down I had to do, which was what
ball handling and walk me be simple as I want
basketball nerves ship as this so I'm in fourth fifth grade.

(45:24):
As simple as zig zag dribbling right hand zig zag,
drill the left hand back you know, Mike, and drill
free throws and then then you could play. But there
was a specific thing I had to get done before
I played. So it was a combination of skill development
then compete right, you do both right equally right. So

(45:45):
it wasn't just because you know, back then if you
were a shooter didn't mean you could play right. There's
lack of guys who could shoot that couldn't play right,
but the lack of guys who could play it who
couldn't shoot right. So having both I would That was
introduced to me at a young age. So from a
young age, I always even when I went to the park,
would I would shoot and then play or play then shoot,

(46:07):
always do both skill development, compete, compete skill development. So
that was ingraining me at a young age. Thank god
from this guy Jack ELSI Lupa Cola my Cyo coaches.
The other thing was I had access to this gym,
and in my neighborhood was Sundays we were at the
I was at the gym from nine to the morning
to ten at night, watching games, reffing games, working the concessions,

(46:31):
then working the front door collecting money. I was just
there all the time. So I'm watching girls games, young
kids younger than me, kids older than me, just watching, listening,
you know, hanging around coaches. So I was blessed to
have that fundamental introduction to the game, and that carried

(46:53):
on through high school and obviously in college. So you know,
to me, how you're introduced to the game and why
you play the game is really important because at some
point I would have reached an endpoint, but that was
not my thing. It wasn't to get just to the NBA.
But so so you asked me who, so, like, when

(47:14):
did I have that feeling that maybe I could or
was that a dream? Yeah? Look, I love wal Frasier.
I loved those Knicks teams, but that seems so far away.
They were like way over there, like for me to
master Square Garden, I couldn't get there, you know, I
mean that seemed like not even a dream. But I
mentioned Jack Elsie, who was my CYO coach. He also

(47:36):
coached me a Zavarian high school. I remember driving with him.
I was a junior. I had transferred school. I left
Power transferred to Zavarian. I was sitting out, so I
was training on my own. Jack was training trying to
keep me in shape because I was gonna come into
the Zavarian play that January of my senior year. Because
I had to sit out because I transferred. I remember

(47:57):
driving with him and he said. I remember in his car,
He's like, have you ever thought about could you play
in the NBA. I'm like, come on, man, no way.
So he brought up a name, which at the time
was you know someone compared to. He goes, you know
Ernie Grenfeld. Yeah, of course, Ernie and Bernie. He goes

(48:18):
six four six five. That's what you are. I think
you can shoot like him and Ernie had made an
All Star team, right. It was the first time he
put a name and someone to compare, like, you're similar
to if he could do it, you could do it.
Looked like seemed like from here, so all of a sudden,

(48:39):
it's not that far fetch. So maybe maybe, but nah,
but my baby's it's in the back of my head there.
And then I have a really successful senior year and
then going to Saint John's. Even my freshman year of
Saint John's, I was not even thinking about the NBA.
The first time it really popped in that it could
be reality was my sophomore year, which was one of

(49:01):
my favorite years ever. Why we had a great team.
I was really the young buck on on a veteran team.
David Russell, Billy Goodwin, Bob Kelly, Kevin Williams, Bill went
into was on that team, but I was a sophomore
and those guys were seniors. Let's say Billy Goodwin. Yeah,

(49:21):
so these guys were great veteran guys. We should have
won a national championship. We were twenty eight and three.
We lost up at the carry down to Georgia, who
wind up going to the final four. But we really
were one of the best teams in the country that year.
But after that season, I remember I had a really
good year, you know, effishing and you know, just had

(49:42):
a really good year. And I remember waking up one
day in New York post was like, is Mullan gonna
go pro? Which I had never even there wasn't a
thing back then, but it was I think the article
rated the top two guards and I was in that mix.
Who were the other ones? Eighty three was probably like
Clyde Drexel. That's that's the year NC State won the championship,

(50:05):
right right, So it was Houston, NC stayed, Michael went
eighty four. So eighty three is a year before all
those guys. But it's just an article that gets out
that it could be and I didn't think about it.
It had no traction. But again it's the second time, Like, man,
I'm kind of trending that way, like and it just

(50:26):
it motivates you more. Uh, it gets you like, it
gets you hungry, like let me, let me keep climbing,
let me keep climbing, and then you know, eighty four
good season Olympic team. Now of a sudden, that Olympic
team I played on in nineteen eighty four. Shoot, I
think eight of the eight of those guys that were

(50:49):
top draft picks. One of the only the only four
award that we'd stayed in school. The eighty four Olympic
team tryouts. Again, if there had been phones and video
footage and it had been documented as well as some
of the other things, I'm sure the footage is probably ridiculous.
Everybody tried out, John Stocked and Karl Malone, Len Bias,

(51:11):
Michael Jordan's on the team, Pearl Washington. John Stockton said
Pearl Washington was the best player. I mean, I looked
at the list of names. It's incredible. What do you
remember about those tryouts? It was it Bobby Knights to coach.
It's in Indiana. He's literally like you have to make
the team, right, it's a legitimate tryout. So seventy two

(51:33):
players are invited, college players, seventy two the top players,
and the tryouts are in Bloomington, Indiana. Bobby Knight is
at the height of his powers. You know, seventy six
they had the undefeated season. He's one of the most
powerful basketball people in the world. At that point in time.
The NBA is still second fiddle to college basketball. At

(51:57):
that point in time, college basketball was I think more popular.
Those coaches had tremendous power. And this is the Spring
of eight. April of eighty four is when the trout
started because there was this Summer Olympics obviously in July
and August. So we start, we report in April seventy
two of us. Well, the team winds up being Alvin Robertson,

(52:23):
Verne Fleming, Leon Wood, Steve Alford, myself, Contact. Well, then
that was gonna go be think Joe Klein, John Contact,
Jeff Turner, Sam Perkins, Waymond Tisdale, Patrick, and Michael So
it winds up being I think that's twelve. I think

(52:43):
I got everybody. But before we get to the guys
who made the team, yeah, so that was gonna go.
So that's the guys that made it. And you mentioned, okay,
the guys that were cut at the very end. So
it goes from seventy two and they cut it to
like forty, send you home and bring you back to
see if you're gonna come back in shape. And it
goes from forty to twenty. They send you home, bring

(53:06):
you back. You know, it's a little mind game to
see if you're gonna come back in shape. Then at
twenty you're together for a few weeks, and now it's
it's a battle. Every day. We're practicing three times a day,
not twice. Three times a day, three times a day,
full full practice, not shoot around, not taped up. You
get arrested for that now, right, probably probably so probably so.

(53:26):
So at twenty guys and you we're going at it.
You're battling at that point in time too. You mentioned
Dre the NBA players were not eligible, so it's the
one and only time you get a chance to play
for the Olympics, you know. So you were coming off
seventy two where we had that brutal loss. The medal
was stolen from US by Russia. Seventy six, we won,

(53:47):
eighty we boycotted, so eighty four. You know, it's a
big thing, you know, I mean it's the one and
only time you get to play. So it's each and
every practice session is pressure packed and you're trying to
do everything you can make that team. And dudes really
want it. Wasn't this Las fair thing. Dudes wanted to
make that team. No, you wanted to be invited first
and foremast getting invited. And then yes, yeah everyone was

(54:09):
clarin except for one guy, and we'll get to that
in a minute. But I love this. So we're down
to twenty. Some of the guys that that did not
make it. Mark Price, how sick? Was Mark so good?
So good like you talked about if they had you know,
he was doing shooting threes, off, picking rolls across yours

(54:31):
up splitting pick and roll, shooting floaters, just dynamic, quick
as shit. Yeah, just a little kid from Oklahoma. Looked
crazy like Opie, like Richie Cunningham. Yeah, no doubt. He
was nasty, skill personified, so nasty with that Cleveland team.
He's so good. Antoine car who had played a year overseas,
he was over the killing, dunking everything call him alone.

(54:56):
Cut who was karme alone at the time? Well, he was.
He was physically a monster. But again, like he played
Louisiana Tech, did you see him plage to see him player?
I never saw him play. I saw him play at
the trials, but I never saw Louisiana Tech. It wasn't
that interact, right, So you didn't see some of these players.

(55:17):
John Stockton, No, no, Gonzaga. Don't know what Gonzaga was.
Couldn't even pronounce it even know if it was a
school or now we thought maybe he was coming from
a company Gonzaga, but never made a mistake. Was flawless
and tough. He made to sixteen. Charles Barkley, what was
he so, Charles was? You know when we practiced, we

(55:39):
practicing this big. It was like six courts because it
was seventy two players. It was you know, stations and
full court games. Things going on. The gym is packed
with NBA scouts because that's now they're watching all the
players for the draft. But all the best players are
here in Bloomington, so everyone's there as from as far
as a personnel and talent scouts and things like that.

(56:00):
Charles is just dunking and hanging on the rim and
everyone's just always looking at his court, like WHOA, what's
going on over there? And this guy was a freak,
you know he was. He was basically Zion Williamson, Zion Williams.
That's who he was. You know. His body and his
athleticism didn't make sense. He looked like he was out
of shape, but he was the fastest and he could
jump over the you know at the gym was pretty amazing.

(56:24):
But when he got down to it, you know, I
think Charles he was totally focused on just getting in
the draft, making name for himself and moving on. But
he came there dominated accomplished his goal. He was a
top five pick. But I do remember, like so Bobby,
there was sixteen of us, and he announced the cuts
like he like like you know, like like when you

(56:46):
see why, you'll like yo. He put the sheet up
and you know he checking in. But he just did it,
you know, like the players that made it and the
other four didn't. I think it was John. I think
it was Mark Price, Charles, you know, the other guys
were kind of upset, and damn Charles got up and say, yo, man,
good luck to you guys. I'm away of the NBA,

(57:06):
So I don't think he was so much into the
whole Olympic experience at that point. So Gold accomplished obviously.
You know, his career speaks for itself. He wanted to
playing for two Olympic teams anyway later on miraculously, But yeah,
I mean that experience again gives you that set long.

(57:26):
I'm with the best now and I'm competing with them now.
It's legit, like now I got a chance to like
make a career out of this and that team. By
the way, going back, I think at some point that
group of players and coaches will be recognized because it
winds up being the last amateur Olympic gold medal one

(57:48):
in basketball. Yeah, I mean that experience and those I mean,
there's been documented, there's been things. I mean that eighty
four Los Angeles Olympics was so much was going on
and there were so many Olympic stars. Mary lou Retton
I fell in love with different podcasts, fell in love
with her out of my mind, Carl Lewis. I mean,
it was there were stars, It was you know, you

(58:09):
guys were a big deal for basketball fans, but basketball
as a whole was it wasn't. And then also the
coverage where you'd see twenty minutes of gym mostly gymnastics
because Mary lou Carl Lewis. Yeah, you see the track
and field and that's that's what the Olympic sports with
more of those because you didn't see them doing a
year basketball. They they show part of our game and
then breakaway, you see, but you bring up you bring

(58:31):
up Mary Lou Rett and it's funny. So we're in
LA was staying we'll talk about my girl on USC campus. Okay,
USC campus, and you have to take the buses over
to the LA Sports Arena. That's where you had to
congregate before you go into the march into the LA
Sports Arena. So we're on the bus and this is
you know, day zero, the just haven't started here. We're

(58:53):
getting ready for opening ceremonies and the gymnastics team is
on our bus and you know, nice little girls and
friendly lo and behold, ten days later, the biggest star
in the world was on our bus. That was funny,
how you see, you know, they were kind of you know,
just happened to be on our bus, right, they were
hanging whatever. And then ten days later, like yo, she's

(59:15):
like the biggest stall in the world. That's crazy, And
ten days earlier no one knew who she was. Right,
we have a photo Carl Lewis, So we're our whole
team's kind of getting ready to walking, and he's hanging
with us, trying, you know, just hanging with us. It's
but again, that's crazy, hang with us. But ten days
later he's way bigger stars than any of us were
after those Olympic games. That's cool. Was Bobby Knight the

(59:39):
motherfucker as a coach or did you see a human
or was it always just remember because like you know,
as a kid, I remember I went to the five
star basketball game and it was like the guy from
Full Metal Jacket walked. It was like and then you'd
see him throwing chairs and no person out. I was like,
who this guy is scary? You know, he's like the
old school authority figure. When when he was coaching you guys,

(01:00:00):
was there any funny moments? Was there any lighthearted stuff?
It is he always liked that, especially when he was
younger and time. Yeah, I think what you said, Michael
is that reputation was earned and preceded him, But there
was a human side to him, and I got to
see that because we would spend so much time together.
Now he had that coaches at that point in time,

(01:00:21):
that's what they were. What you just said, most coaches
now different degrees, and Bobby was like the at the
highest level of that disciplinary. Look. He came from Army.
He coached at Army, so that was a big part
of his life. Was discipline, on time, work hard, no distractions,

(01:00:41):
do what you're told, no questions. Right, That's based on
what he was about. But we practiced three times, so
there was a huge emphasis on discipline, unselfishness, teamwork, You
don't ask quy, you do what you're told. Yes, that
was in place in nineteen eighty four. But what I
saw from him and he had tremendous respect. We talked

(01:01:03):
about Michael Jordan's right from North Carolina. Dean Smith was
his coach, right, Very similar principles, different delivery, right, John Thompson,
very similar foundation of beliefs and principles, a little different message, right,
lou Carneseca. They all respected each other and they all

(01:01:26):
were teaching the same thing, but their personalities were different.
So so the message was the same delivery, Like you said,
it might have been with a chair as opposed to
you know, a play call. But I saw the human
side of Bobby Knight, and what really I always tell
people list, Look, he was tough to play for, but
I didn't matter. I played for coaches that I took

(01:01:48):
the message and didn't really if you told us to
me quietly or yelled at it, it didn't matter. Let
me get the message. I know what you want me
to do, I'll go do it. But years later, my
dad worked that JFK was US customs inspect He worked
there for twenty eight years. So back then, obviously pre
nine eleven, the airport was you know, open and you
kind of floated around and do what you want. After

(01:02:11):
those Olympics, obviously my dad got to know Bobby and
when he was flying internationally, whether it be recruiting pleasure trips,
when he would be coming through customs, he would look
my dad up all the time, even on a commercial flight.
My dad would come home, Hey, Bobby Knight, stop buying
and say hello, which meant so much to me. So

(01:02:31):
so Bobby to me. And I'm not going to pretend
like I know him all that well, I know him
pretty well. He did most of his kindness and human
kindness things behind the scenes and the stuff we saw.
Obviously his coaching was what we saw publicly. So I

(01:02:52):
do believe there's a really cool, kind, harder dude. God.
That's that's my personal pick. And it got to me
later on, not from coaching. Dude, Hey man came through
the airport, took time out, took time out, goes out
of my dad, right, I like that. I want to

(01:03:29):
skip to when you got drafted, your first year in
the NBA, your first games. What's your oh shit moment
I'm in the NBA, Like where you're playing against somebody
you watched, you idolized, like you remember being on the
court and you're like, you know, when I've talked to
basketball players, you know, they always have that moment. I've
had it with actors. Well, I'm like, there's I'm we're

(01:03:51):
working together now, Robert de Niro. You know, basketball different
because you're competing against each other. What do you remember
your rookie season where we're like, oh shit, yeah, my
two biggest Doctor Jay and Kareem that my two biggest
Like wow, like this is insane. Doctor Jay obviously, you know,

(01:04:14):
ironically he's from New York and Long Island. But to me,
like when I think of Doctor Jay, the first thing
I think when I was a kid was him in
the ABA at the Nassau Coliseum. Like that's some of
the nastiest highlights ever, right, basically carrying that league all
by himself. So too, I played it against him my
rookie year. And back then we all flew commercials, so

(01:04:36):
a lot of times the teams would obviously stay the night,
and a lot of times we'd all go to the
same restaurant. I remember going to the place in Hayward,
not a fund from where we are right now, Hayward Fishery,
where a lot of teams would go because the guy
would take care of everyone. And I'm sitting at a
big table and doctors, and I found myself just staring
at him. He had this glow about him. He was

(01:04:56):
Michael Jordan. He had he had it, man, he just
had it. He was beyond a great basketball player. He
looked he does. He's got that that glow him. Yes,
And imagine when he played with you didn't watch sports
and you saw him, you go, he's an act. He's
something he's something different. And that's what Doc was and

(01:05:16):
then Kareem. I remember playing at the Forum and it
was in game and somehow we were both checking in
like say like mid third or something at the scorer's
table check him back into the game, and were sitting
at the floors and I'm looking like, holy shit, dude,
this is the guy. When I was at pow Memorial,
every time I walked up to the gym, I saw

(01:05:36):
this guy's jersey hanging there and he's sitting next to me,
like this is this is Chris. So those are the
fucking goggles and everything. Yeah, just like you know Airplane
the movie. I'm like, you know what the hell is
going on here? You know this? Yeah? I mean because again,
like every time I walked from the locker room to
the gym to practice of Power, his jersey was sitting there,

(01:05:59):
like and this was some some mystical figure that had
broken every single record at every level of basketball Power UCLA,
Milwaukee Bucks and yeah. So those those were the two
Magic and Bird, Yes, but in my mind it was
Doc and Kareem who gave you the business like where

(01:06:22):
you were like, holy shit when you were in the
league those first couple of years, that where you were
just like what like obviously the Birds, and but like
what was another player that you played against? I mean,
you know, I was looking at some of the names
that Fat Sleever and Albert Robertson. I mean these like
who did you guard or that you were like in
those first couple of years that you were like, fuck,

(01:06:44):
this is a problem. Yeah, I mean almost every night
there was a problem for me athletically, right, I had
to navigate that different level of athleticism, match it with skill,
try to figure out how to you know off someone
enough where I can get beat off the dribble, you'd
also be able to contest. These were things I dealt

(01:07:05):
with pretty much your whole career, but at the NBA
it gets magnified by a hundred because now you're talking
about the greatest athletes. So defensively was always a tough
thing for me, but I could counter that with offense, right,
That's what that was my thing, Like, don't get killed
on defense, be smart, be conscientious, don't get blown by.

(01:07:28):
But you gotta make them pay it the other end,
because I'm going out there getting six points. That's not
going to work. But so you know, Michael Cooper, Derek McKee, shit,
you know, the Michael Scottie, these long, athletic guys that
could guard you off the dribble, run you down off screen,

(01:07:49):
basically shut you down, you know, single handling. It was Cooper,
motherfucker Coop Cooper. I remember one time I saw Cooper recently.
I told him, I said, man to me, like we
always talk about and rightfully, so guys who were active, right,
the Warriors got a bunch, you know, future Hall of famers,
which is cool. But there's also a guy a lot

(01:08:09):
of guys that are left off so to meet is
like Cooper, Like they was started putting guys in for
defense and for team success, right, That's which is cool.
He's got to be in there. He's one of those guys.
He was doing the chase down block like Lebron does.
That was one of his things. He was shooting threes.
He was a six man and nasty. So I remember

(01:08:31):
one time I played it was a rookie. I stole it.
I'm like kind of like, yeah, I'm gonna let me
go down dunk this thing. You know, didn't really go
after it. He pinned my ship to the glass. Man, like, man,
get that shit out of here. So the athleticism the
ability to play individual defense, and then the competitive spirit. Man.
You know, so guys like that I mentioned Derek mckeetie's

(01:08:53):
guys who were all of a sudden, You've seen guys
with six nine six ten who in college we're playing centers.
Now they're actually switching on the perimeter and locking your
ass down. Now you gotta like go back to the
drawing board, like, man, I gotta ninety more screens. I
gotta get these guys off me. When did your lack

(01:09:15):
of speed, your lack of foot speed become something you
were very aware of that you knew you had to counteract.
Were you always aware of it? Now? I was again
going back to my um grade school coach. He always
he talked to me about that as being a fact,
but not necessarily liability, but being aware of it. And
it also came down to anticipation. Did you try to

(01:09:37):
fight it though, like I'm gonna make myself faster? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
I always worked on it. I did a lot of
training to just get just a nano second better, just
a little bit, and staying in shape, being being more fit, yes,
you know, especially on the off running more. You know
what I mean when I played. I was really conscious
of never standing still. You were conscious of never standing STI,

(01:10:00):
no doubt, just trying to wear that person down mentally
and physically to where at some point you would spring
yourself open. It might not happen right away, it might
not happen as much as you wanted to. But if
you keep doing it and you gain their reputation, that
becomes a skill that myself is a skill. Steph Curry.
One of his skills is his endurance, his stamina, and

(01:10:22):
the pressure he puts on his opponent physically and mentally
to be locked in every second that you're playing against him. Right,
So I was aware of it. I worked to compensate
for that. The flip side is the fact that an offense,
it's actually your strength. Being slower on offense is actually

(01:10:44):
a big time strength, big time weakness on defense. But again,
to counter both, you figure it out. Talk to me
about the Boston Garden, the Boston Celtics and Larry Bird
at that time. The Boston Garden. You know, there's all
these myths, facts, fakes. There's ghosts. They didn't have a

(01:11:05):
hot water, they didn't have cold water. There's the air conditioning.
They don't have an air conditioning talk to him about
playing in there and what Larry Bird meant to you
as somebody who came before you, and what his game
was like when you're actually on the court with him. Yeah.
So Larry and Magic obviously played in that nineteen seventy
nine final and CLA final. I think till this day

(01:11:27):
the most watched college basketball gun. So they had a
huge impact on college basketball and the way it's viewed.
And you know the impact of their their greatness and
how the players were introduced as individual stars at that
point in time. That's what David Stern wind up doing
in the NBA, promoting individuals as opposed to teams. Worked magically.

(01:11:51):
But Bird again, you know, you try and emulate someone
like you. Yeah, I wish I could have been Doctor j.
That wouldn't have happened it, you know, So I was
told to watch John havelcheck Larry Bird. Your magic to
a degree was his passing. He wasn't fast, right, guys
that were playing, you know, more like what I was

(01:12:12):
capable of doing. But Larry Bird, you know, they said
he was slow, couldn't jump. You know, there was a
lot of similarities there. So watching him again, you know,
before social media, Um the coacham Arkansas. What's his name, Um,
Nolan Richardson. Nolan Richardson, great, great coache, one of the great.
So so anyway, the legend was again before social media.

(01:12:37):
You heard about this guy from French Lick and State
the twenty nine and oh like magic and Larry had
that probably as big an impact as anybody on the
transition of the NBA. But it started in that nineteen
seventy nine final game. Yeah, so I watched him, try
to emulate him, heard about his work, ethic, things like that,

(01:12:58):
you know. So and then when we played against him,
you talked about the Boston Garden. It was as far
as aesthetically and the actual building was a shipole. But
it was a museum, dude. It was a museum. It
was It didn't matter that there was the floor had
dead spots. That was it. Man, It's the Boston Garden.

(01:13:21):
I had played there in college. We played Boston College
there a few times. So, yeah, the banners, the history,
Bill Russell read all back, John Haletcheck, you know, all
the greats played there was you know, a staple you
know of the NBA. So it was a museum. So

(01:13:43):
it didn't matter all else, it didn't matter, but it
was true. There were dead spots in the floor. It
was really cool because the Boston Bruins played the night before.
There was two showers, only one work. You know, that's
all true. But the lake is I think it was
like nineteen eighty four or five or six. It's like
one hundred and thirteen degrees in there, right, So that's

(01:14:05):
all true, but it's still it's the Boston Garden. You know,
we got we went to play there. We went to
play there. U probably like nineteen eighty eight or eighty nine,
Mitch Richmond's rookie year. We go in there, we have
a day off, we're practicing, and we're you know, looking
all the banners. You know, everyone's up there, and there's

(01:14:27):
a number nineteen. There's no names, just numbers, right, So like, yo, Mitch,
look number nineteen. You know, he's like, who's that? I
saw a coach man? That's Nellie Man. Every time he
goes Nellie played. That's miss even know you played. That's
fucking funny. That is funny. Might be why Nelly traded him,

(01:14:51):
that was it, that was to break them. That's funny. Yeah,
all right, I'm gonna jump into Dream Team because we
can't talk. I'm gonna end. There's so much shit I
could talk. We'll pick up in New York Man. We'll
give a part two, but the Dream Team. Yeah, give
me something. It's been talked about, books, documentaries, on time.
What was that like? Give me a story that's never

(01:15:11):
been told. Those games? Were they as competitive as they said? Like?
What was the climate like playing in that game? In
those games and that team? Well, I said earlier, right right?
So I said earlier, like in nineteen eighty four. You know,
at that point in time, it's the only time you
get a chance to play an Olympics. So it was
the pressure to make that team. Who would have thought

(01:15:31):
eight years later, it's opened up to pros and miraculously timing,
which we have no control over. I'm playing at a
really high level, so that that alone was miraculous. The
selection of the team. Like I said, at that point
in time, I was playing a really high level for
a few years in a row. The international game was
still a little different than the NBA, so it was

(01:15:53):
a little more specific player that you needed internationally. Now
the game is almost identical, but back then it was
still you know, a different type of style. So obviously
the selection of the team happens for me the biggest
moment for me in my NBA career because of all
those things and things that had been through the fourth

(01:16:14):
back to get playing at a high level, and then
this magical thing happens where FIBA and the NBA declares
NBA players are eligible. So as far as you know,
we all know who's on that team. Incredible, all the
legends of the game a lot. We just talked about Magic, Bird,
Jordan Ewing, Robinson, Barkley, and now you've grown up with

(01:16:36):
these guys in a way, yeah a lot. Yeah, well,
you know, to live Magic and Bird are the elder
statesman guys we all looked up to, right, Patrick and
Michael I had played on eighty four together, so where
we reunited for that team and then played against you know,
Carl and John, David Clyde, all these other guys are

(01:16:56):
all peers who we competed against. But to to spend
that summer together with the group of those guys, to
get to know them away from the court, because you know,
we spent a lot of time obviously together, not just
because you know, the time frame, but also being in
the hotel not so much secluded, but you know, you

(01:17:19):
had a We just hung together a lot. You know,
there wasn't a whole lot guys were going out and
doing their thing, but our families were there, We had
our kids. It was really a really cool time. Everybody
was really secure and who they were, their careers were established.
No one was trying to build a brand. It was

(01:17:39):
just a team and that was the coolest thing to me.
The coolest thing was we became a team like that
and part of that. The reason for that was everyone
understood their their role and when it was very secure
and come to who they were and just go out
there and do your things. Sounds simple. Didn't always happen.

(01:18:01):
We've seen other teams not to be able to do that.
But the character that the awareness of all those players
was really cool to play with and to be around,
even socially right, we made lifelong friendships. But as far
as like competitively, I remember we had a report to
San Diego that was our first report for training camp.

(01:18:22):
First session, everyone's kind of on eggshells getting out of
each other's way. I remember the magic kicked the ball
up in the stands and say, Yo, this is fucking bullshit, dude,
We're fucking bullshit. Like you know, you talk about leadership
and awareness, like, let's fucking you know, everyone fucking play now.
Don't be worried about what Everyone do their thing, right.

(01:18:43):
So I was like practice one. Then we had a
few good practices and we had the legendary scrimmage with
those young fellas Chris Webber, Grant Hill, Bobby Hurley, all
those guys, and they beat us in that scrimmage. What
the fuck I mean you watched the documentary. I wasn't
even aware of at the time, not that it mat
at that time, but look, you're talking about first of all,

(01:19:04):
they were all talented. They were, yes, and they were kids, right,
but they were talented that those guys wound up all
being stars, so they're right there. Of course, they're obviously
a little hungrier, right right, all that stuff, Um, so
give them their credit, right, they did their thing. Lo
and behold, Michael did not play. You know at the

(01:19:24):
in the moment, didn't really realize that. You know, in
the documentary, Coach K made that very clear that Chuck
daily knew exactly what he was doing. And the next
day we beat him by fifty. But again, you know,
I think you got to give them their credit there,
and a lot of those guys, you know, went on
to have some more amazing careers, so that that was cool.
We had to go to Portland play that qualify. We

(01:19:46):
had to qualify for the limits by the way, right
because we lost an eighty eight. Go to Portland, knocked
those games out, take a little break. Then we were
flying from from New York to Nice, Yes to uh
what we call with Monico, I have a little training
camp theory. So we're there for a few days practice
and stuff. We played the French national team had a

(01:20:09):
subpart performance again you know, guy's in casinos whatever you know,
with blah blah blah. And then Chuck Daly, who was
just one of the nicest guys I ever met, you know,
blue collar, had that charisma, you know, like your uncle,
but also like you know the chief, great good dude man,
good dude's shop. Just just a really cool guy, perfect

(01:20:32):
guy for that job. You know. Senses were kind of
like not ready maybe, so it calls a practice in
the morning after everyone's been out or whatever, and instead
of practicing, just divides the team up like once you
get that edge going. So, you know, Michael, I think
I was with Michael and he splits Michael and Magic

(01:20:55):
and whatever. I don't know exactly what the teams were,
but now Michael and Magic going at it like verbally,
physically and really getting after it. So that was, you know,
one of the coolest closed gyms I've ever been in
my life, really, and you had call going against Charles,

(01:21:18):
Michael versus Magic, all these different David and Patrick and
what about you? Who were you? Chis probably with Scottie.
I was probably matter with Scott I would think, you know,
but what dominated was Michael and Magic that dominated the gym.
And right before it got to be too much, Chuck Delly,

(01:21:41):
we got it now we're ready, just got that that
edge going. But all through that summer, Michael was, you know,
he's the best player in the world by far. He
just was you know, Magic was the best player in
the world right and was still really good and was
not just gonna hand that mantled to Michael. You know,

(01:22:04):
he made he made Michael take it from him, which
he did, uh huh. You know, I remember a few times,
you know, Larry at that point in time, his back
was bothered, and you know he's playing sparingly but you know,
still really good. You know, he's sit out some practices
and then you know if Michael and Magic going out,
I look over Larry and he's kind of like shakings,
like no, no, no, it's over, dude. He's the man,

(01:22:27):
like he got it. It's over. Yeah. So it was
pretty cool seeing that. But again it was used in
a constructive matter. It wasn't it didn't get too far. No,
it was strictly out of respect and admiration, and it
actually you know, made the team better. All right, that's it, Molly.
We talked hour and fifteen minutes. I could go on

(01:22:49):
and on and on. I mean, there's people are gonna
be like, why didn't jazz this whnz New York don't
do in New York? How much fucking how much can
I do? To hour and fifteen minutes? Okay? Tired? Got
pickle ball to play. We got a show to night
to see that shows. You got pick a ball tournaments,
he got games, got naps. Chris Mullen, I am rapp
ports stereo podcats. I appreciate it, my pleasure, Mike anytime.

(01:23:18):
Thank you, Chris, Mullin for joining me on the podcats.
You heard him, he said in New York Will Due
Part two. That was the one thousandth episode of The
Iron rapp Reports Stereo Podcasts. Tell a friend to tell
a friend about the world's most disruptive podcast, the Iron
Rappaport Stereo Podcast. We started the way we ended, We

(01:23:39):
ended the way we started. Miles Join a k. The
Bleach Brothers aka the Dust Brothers. Take me out here
with something real nights, yes, Take me out here with
something real loud, yes, But most importantly, end this puppy
with something real funky. I am Rappaport Stereo Podcast. One
thousand in the can. Here's to the next one thousand
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EP 1,000 - Chris Mullin (2x Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Famer, 5x NBA All Star, 2x Olympic Gold Medalist, Dream Team Member & NYC Legend)

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}EP 1,000 - Chris Mullin (2x Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Famer, 5x NBA All Star, 2x Olympic Gold Medalist, Dream Team Member & NYC Legend)