May 9, 2023 • 45 mins
I have always wanted to know more about how to protect assets and still be able to qualify for Medicaid benefits, in this episode, I realize it is possible for all of us!
Sayge Grubbs is an Elder Law attorney that is on a mission to improve the lives of our elderly population. Not only does he help protect assets and qualify clients for Medicaid benefits, he has also created Seniorsindex.com for Alabama residents to access necessary information quickly.
I am so honored to be able to interview a lawyer and gain so much knowledge and insight to share with everyone who asks.
Main take-a-ways:
1. Prepare early
2. There is a trust available that will protect assets from Medicaid. Sage Legacy Counsel is a firm that specializes in this type of trust.
3. Not all trusts are created equal. Know what kind of trust you want.
4. The cost for a trust should be $1500+. If you are ever around people who are claiming they can create a trust for you for less than $1000 be very critical about their legitimacy.
5.Having a trust will avoid probate. That means peace for your family after your passing.
The event Sayge Grubbs is hosting is the 3rd Annual Successful Aging Bootcamp in Montgomery, Alabama. The event will be held at Vaughn Forest Church May 19, 2023 and starts at 10am and ends at 3pm.. This event will have CEU's for social workers and nurses. All proceeds will be donated to a local charity delivering meals on wheels.
You can go to seniorsindex.com to register for the event.
I am a presenter, and I am excited to talk about: How to have "The Talk" with our Elderly Loved Ones and What to Expect."
You can connect with me at www.aspireformorewitherin.com
You can join my email list here.
You can schedule a call for us to connect about your caregiving journey here.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:32):
I'm so excited too.
Be able to get this podcastepisode out for you to listen
to.
I, um, interviewed Sayge Grubbsan elder law attorney from
Montgomery, Alabama.
I met him through this wholedigital world, and it's just
fascinating to see hownetworking can grow just by
(00:55):
finding people that areconnected and making the world a
better place for our seniors.
For our elderly loved ones.
Sayge Grubbs is a university ofAlabama law school graduate and
is the founder of Sage legacycounsel and estate planning law
firm, where he focuses on assetprotection and other estate
planning needs.
(01:16):
His passion for serving hiscommunity came from his
childhood.
Working in the funeral home, hisfamily operated and later
working with his father attorneyNorman Grubbs while in law
school.
Through Sage's work at the Sagelegacy council.
He recognized a need for morefactual information, easily
accessible to his clients andothers in the state of Alabama.
(01:37):
And therefore senior's index.comwas born.
Seniors index.com is a networkof vetted and caring senior care
providers that share the samebelief that families and
caregivers need factualinformation available in one
place and easily accessible.
Hope you enjoy the episode.
Erin Thompson (01:57):
Thank you so much Sayge for being here today.
I appreciate your time and I'mhonored that I am able to speak
at your event coming up and anhonor and be a part of your
Seniors Index program that youhave going on.
So I want you to take it awayand tell us everything about the
event and about Seniors Index aswell.
(02:20):
Well, thank you
Sayge Grubbs (02:21):
and thank you for being one of our key speakers.
We are here in the river regionin Montgomery, and in this area
there is an organization calledMACOA.
And so this event is going tohelp donate some funds to their
Meals on Wheels program, whichtakes meals to seniors that are
(02:42):
in need.
And I mean, they deliver a lotof meals on a weekly basis, like
Monday through Friday.
So we annually partner.
With them to do an event, and itkind of slowed down during
Covid.
But the event is called TheSuccessful Aging Bootcamp, and
it's May 19th.
(03:03):
It's from 10 to three at VaunForest Church.
And the whole goal and objectiveof the Successful Aging Bootcamp
is to allow, I would say, notonly family caregivers, but that
sandwich generation.
They can come get answers.
So one of the things that I'venoticed just from my law
(03:26):
practice being an a, an elderlaw attorney, is that people can
get what I say lost in therabbit hole when they get on
Google or when they starttalking to other family members.
Or friends about their optionsfor their parents or their loved
ones, you know, or their spousewhen it comes to home care or
(03:48):
going into a facility, whetherit's a, even an independent
facility or an assisted living,or any of those types of
facilities.
It can just get confusingbecause the laws change from
state state and, and things arejust different.
So what might have worked foryour aunt in Michigan or Florida
is not gonna work in Alabama.
And so, you know, at this eventwe're going to shed light on
(04:12):
what does work here in the stateof Alabama and we're gonna shed
light on how to actually, or Ishould say not we, but you we're
gonna shed light on actually howto have that talk with people.
And, you know, their loved onesabout how to actually, navigate
this aging process.
(04:32):
And I'm excited because I thinkwe have a, a good group of
people that are going to be onthe expert panel at the end,
answer a lot of questions.
We have a lady that's going tospeak in the beginning named
Angela Boyd, and she's going todiscuss Medicare and all the
different options there.
Of course, I will do a talk.
On asset protection and how toprotect your loved ones assets
(04:56):
so they don't go broke in thenursing home.
And I think, you know, we'regonna raise a lot of money.
We're gonna have a lot of fun,and it's gonna be a great event.
I mean, seriously, if you havesomeone who's already receiving
home care, or if you havesomeone that is in a facility
already, you know, to me this isa.
(05:17):
Not miss type of event, likethere's nowhere else can you go
and get this group of people andthese types of experts all in
the same room to answer your
Erin Thompson (05:28):
questions.
Yeah, it sounds pretty powerful.
And, I get to talk about mygrandmother's story and how we
would go through every phase ofthe in-home caregiving, to
moving into assisted living,even a respite stay.
And then also my ability tocoach the thousands of family
members throughout my career,whether or not they moved in my
(05:49):
community or not, but problemsolving.
Their current situation.
So yeah, it's exciting and quitean honor and to be able to learn
from the expert panels and ofcourse asset protection being a
lot of what we wanna talk abouttoday, because there's so many
questions that I have about itthat I've also seen in my
experience as well.
(06:11):
And I have a lot of parents, inthat generation where, My
parents are divorced andremarried.
My husband's parents aredivorced and remarried, and I
have a lot of parents.
And so actually getting thequestions about trust and asset
protection is important becauseI want what's best for them.
And when you want what's bestfor your loved one, you can help
(06:31):
everybody else, which is reallyexciting.
So, I'm excited about that.
Again, it's May 19th and it's atVaughn Forest Church.
Sayge Grubbs (06:39):
in Montgomery, Alabama, and it's sponsored by
seniors index.com and I createdand founded Seniors Index,
mainly because my clients, I wastired of.
Talking with them and seeingthem go down that rabbit hole on
Google and other searches thatthey do, trying to figure out
(07:02):
what's what and, and you knowwho to talk to, who's reliable,
who's this and that.
So, you know, I said, how can Ihelp lessen the stress of my
clients?
Which turned into me saying, howcan I help lessen the stress?
Of people that are going throughthis aging process and have
family members that they'retrying to help.
(07:24):
Right?
So by lessening the stress, theeasiest thing to do is
information.
Yes.
You know, the correctinformation, the right
information, vetted, curatedinformation that state specific.
I had a person say, well, youknow, that website's going to be
full of advertorials.
And I said, well, if someone isjust putting advertorials on
(07:46):
there, then they really won'tget any business because no
one's going to just readsomething that just says, use
me, use me, use me, use me.
Right?
So we try to make sure thateverything on the site, Has some
good information and educationthat you can use.
That's state specific here forthe state of Alabama, and it's
free.
So for the public it's 100%free, you know, to join, to get
(08:09):
on there to become part of thecommunity.
There's, uh, dashboards onthere, so if you just have a
question or topic you'd like todiscuss in senior care, you can
put it on dashboard.
People will come in and answeryou.
And, you know, in order toregister for the event, you just
have to get on seniors indexcom.
And click on the button.
So seniors index.com is helpingput this event on because we at
(08:36):
Senior Index really believe thatit's very important for people
to get the right information, toget educated.
On these topics and you know,actually hear it from experts,
people that are in the industrythat are doing this on a daily
basis, helping family memberssolve these problems and these
issues, right?
So with that being said, you canclick on the very top where it
(09:00):
says RSVP Bootcamp.
So if you go to seniorsindex.com, you just click on
that button, RSVP bootcamp, andthen a page will pop up.
And it'll say, you know, fillout this form and hit submit.
You just fill that out.
RSVP.
We only have a certain number ofspots available and for everyone
(09:22):
that's coming, we're just askingthat you donate$15 to hear all
this good information.
You'll get a swag bag from allthe people that are there and
all the experts, but we're justasking you to donate$15 to help
us go ahead and, build some,what I would say, Good vibes for
MACOA and all the meals onwheels that they're serving,
(09:43):
Monday through Friday, everyweek here in the, in the river
Erin Thompson (09:46):
region.
It's nice to partner with peoplewho have a heart to serve.
You know, I mean, we all are ina business.
We have to make money, butreally, ultimately it's a
business to serve people, andthis is a great way of doing
that with seniors index.com, andthen also events like this.
To just educate, empower, andequip family members and
(10:08):
residents or elderly peoplethemselves on how to make the
best choices for themselves toreally just define success for
them at every stage of thecaregiving journey or you know,
your life's journey.
So that is very inspiring.
It's nice to see a lawyer do agood thing.
(10:29):
You know what I mean?
Let it go sa let
Sayge Grubbs (10:33):
it go.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Yes.
Hey, we're not, we're not allout chasing ambulances.
Erin Thompson (10:41):
That's good.
That's important.
That's important to note.
And for me, it's important to beable to focus in on the state of
Alabama, which for my entirecareer I haven't been able to do
so.
Um, I've worked for largercompanies and so it's really
nice just to be able to, tospeak to people in Alabama, and
to, you know, equip them withstrategies to help them be
(11:06):
successful throughout theirjourney.
So that's exciting.
Again, May 19th, and you can goto seniors index.com to
register.
So I wanna get into the nuts andbolts of Sage Legacy Council and
Asset Protection because there'sa lot of people that ask
(11:26):
questions and of course I can'tanswer those questions.
And like I said, I have parentswho are, Looking at protecting
their assets for the future.
And I have had people questionme, how do I protect my loved
one's assets?
and when we're looking atMedicaid and how they look back
five years and all of the, thehoops that people have to go
(11:48):
through to even get Medicaid,and I want you to explain to us
how you advise people to dothat.
Number one.
We'll start there.
And then what are some of thered flags to look for And To me,
an average cost of whatsomething they can trust can be.
(12:10):
So those are our threequestions, but we'll start with
number one, how do you protectassets?
How do you do that?
Well, you gotta use
Sayge Grubbs (12:19):
the right type of trust.
Okay?
I tell people all the time,there's three types of planning
you can do.
You can do no planning, whichis.
What majority of Americans haveyou can do will planning, which
is the most popular, or you cando trust planning.
Trust planning is the onlyplanning that can actually help
(12:40):
you protect your assets as faras the state planning is
concerned.
Now, when we say trust planning,they're three different types of
trust.
So, you know, everything comesin threes, right?
Mm-hmm.
Um, you got three types ofplans, three types of trust.
You've got a revocable livingtrust, which helps you skip
(13:00):
probate.
It allows you to be the owner ofthe trust.
You can be the manager, or whatwe like to call the trustee of
the trust.
And you can benefit the trust,which is everybody's favorite
position, because the personthat benefits is a person that
can actually receive the moneyor the house, home, whatever's.
In the trust, right?
(13:21):
So in that type of trust or aliving trust, you get all the
benefits, but asset protection.
So then people came along andthey said, well, we want asset
protection, and they created airrevocable trust.
That'd be the second type oftrust.
Now, the irrevocable trust,within and of itself allows you
(13:42):
to skip probate, allows you toprotect your assets, and you own
the trust.
What we like to say.
The problem though, a lot oftimes is that you aren't the
trustee or the manager of thetrust, meaning you cannot do
anything with the stuff that'sactually in it.
Once you put it in there, it'sthere and it's done.
(14:03):
Also, you can't benefit from it,so you can't take anything out
and give it to yourself.
So for a long time, that was themain way that people did asset
protection.
I happen to have joined anassociation where we have kind
of a hybrid of those two trusts,which is why I say there's three
types of trust.
(14:24):
It's
a
irrevocable trust, and we use it for asset
protection planning.
But because it's a special typeof trust, it allows the person
to still be their own manager ortrustee, which is huge because
that means if you put your housein there, well you're still in
charge of your house, right?
(14:44):
And the other one, theirrevocable one, where you can't
be in charge or the trustee ifyou put your house in there,
well, you're not in charge ofyour own house anymore.
You know what I mean?
Your trustee is, so if theywanna sell it or do something,
there's nothing you can do aboutit.
Also, in the third type, whichis kind of a hybrid, You can
(15:06):
actually be a beneficiary.
So not only do you get the assetprotection from Medicaid or a
creditor or credit or lawsuit,but you get to be in charge and
you can actually receive moneyand things like that outta the
trust.
And the funny thing about usinga trust is something that we
call Medicaid freeze that Idon't think people will
(15:26):
understand or take advantage of.
So for instance, becauseMedicaid looks back five years,
Let's say you put a hundredthousand dollars in the trust,
right?
Well, all Medicaid seizes duringthat five year period is a
hundred thousand dollars.
Now, if that hundred thousanddollars is one of these, you
(15:47):
know, unicorn cryptos orsomething, and it doubles within
five years, and it's now at200,000, well they can't see
that growth.
They can't see that hundredthousand dollars growth.
Your amount that they can see isfrozen at that hundred thousand
that you originally put in.
So that's another reason whytrust is so important when it
(16:07):
comes to this type of planningand when we're doing Medicaid
planning or long-term careplanning for, you know,
facilities, whether even if it'sassisted living and someone's a
veteran.
And they're trying to get what'scalled VA eight in attendance.
Mm-hmm.
That still has a look back.
It's got a three year look back.
So we still use trust planningfor that same type of trust,
(16:30):
same type of deal, differentrules than Medicaid.
But you know, just as important.
And when we're doing that typeof planning, you know, you can
either do pre-planning or youcan do crisis planning.
Pre-planning is everybody'shealthy, everybody's okay.
You know, uh, maybe someone'swent to the hospital, but you
(16:53):
know, you haven't signed up fora home caregiver to come in.
Things of that nature.
That is all pre-planning.
Crisis planning is when you aresitting in the assisted living
or as you know, you're sittingin rehab and they tell you, you
got 21 days and it's day 19, andthey're like, And they're like,
(17:13):
Hey, you are about to go to theskilled nursing facility.
Okay?
Mm-hmm.
That is crisis planning.
Now, in both types of planning,you know, that's kind of what we
focus on.
We focus on the pre-planning andthe crisis planning, but in both
types of planning, you can savea lot of assets.
(17:34):
Like our goal is to make surethat that person had a will.
That it's followed and thatthose people can still receive
that stuff through our trustplanning, right?
And that that stuff doesn't getliquidated and eaten up.
Now, sometimes the best thing todo is to liquidate some stuff,
but if, as I tell people, if Iliquidate something and I get a
(17:57):
hundred thousand dollars and Idon't have any plan at all,
well, until I spend$98,000 ofthat, I don't qualify for
Medicaid, right?
Correct.
Now, this person wanted to givethat, let's say, to their two
kids, well now I've got ahundred thousand dollars and I
(18:19):
wanted to give it to my twokids.
I don't have a plan.
I've gotta spend 98,000 before Iqualify for Medicaid.
So my kids aren't going to getanything if you do pre-planning
in that same scenario.
You may possibly be able to savea whole hundred thousand and
qualify for Medicaid if you docrisis planning.
(18:40):
In that scenario, you may stillbe able to save like 60,000 and
still qualify for Medicaid.
So the timing of when someoneplans is key, yet it's better to
plan than to not plan at
Erin Thompson (18:53):
all.
Yeah, I mean, A, a trustcompletely.
Negate probate altogether, whichis worth having a trust, I would
say, for the people.
Yes.
On the other side, it's worthhaving a trust just to not have
to go through probate becausethere's a lot of things that
people don't realize when youhave to go through that process,
(19:14):
that can really hinder you fromforward progress on anything
that you wanna do.
Number two, I mean, pre-planningis important, especially if
there are assets.
Involved and if there are, ifthey are a veteran, because yes,
Aiden attendance is available topeople who have spent 90 days in
(19:36):
active duty with at least oneday being wartime for their
healthcare needs.
But there is that three yearlookback that five years ago was
not there.
So That's right.
If, if they earned it.
This pre-planning is veryimportant.
Because now they can get thepension that they rightfully
earned.
(19:56):
Um, and it's just if you loveyour, your, your people, this is
just the most peaceful way toset them up.
Yeah.
At a very, sad and traumatictime for them, you know.
So would you suggest like around65, I mean, of course we never
know, right?
And this is the perfect casescenario would be.
(20:19):
If you're gonna live to 85.
Right.
Which I know it's all based, Iguess, on the amount of assets
that you have and the differentkinds of things.
Yeah.
Like I'm asking a real simplequestion here.
Um, that is very complicated.
But if you were a person with a$100,000, let's just say all you
had was a$100,000 in liquid cashand maybe a house, right?
(20:43):
Nothing fancy, no LLCs, nothinglike that.
I mean, when you're looking atMedicare and all that other kind
of stuff, would you say thatthat's a perfect time to start
the process?
Yeah,
Sayge Grubbs (20:55):
that's, that's the exact time to start it.
Cause you're healthy and you cansave the most and put the best
plan in place because you'rehealthy.
You know, one of the ways to payis long-term care and people are
like, well I don't wantlong-term care insurance cause
it costs too much.
Mm-hmm.
Yet it's better to pay.
(21:16):
I tell people to pay$600 a monthnow than to pay$6,500 a month
later.
You know, and I'm just usingthat as example.
I don't know how much, you know,cause it's individual based.
A person's long term care maycost, but people believe it to
be very expensive on the otherhand.
If you don't have long-term careand you don't have a plan, then
(21:40):
the likelihood of you goingbroke, or, you know, even if, if
your spouse goes in thefacility, the likelihood of the
family going broke is very,very, very high.
Mm-hmm.
So the earlier someone plans thebetter.
And then also when you plan, itgives you that peace of mind.
Because if you use a firm likeours, which is, you know, this
(22:04):
is all we focus on.
You'll be able to say, Hey, thisjust happened.
What's my plan when thishappens?
Mm-hmm.
You know, Hey, this person justwent here in this type of
facility.
What's my plan when this person,goes in this type of facility?
So, you know, it, it's, it'salways better to have a roadmap
(22:26):
Yes.
And a plan to get yourdestination than it is to just
show up and file paperworksaying, Hey, Medicaid.
Here I am.
Do with me what you please.
Yes.
Erin Thompson (22:38):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And most people wanna protecttheir assets from Medicaid.
And I know that sound, I feellike that just feels like, I
shouldn't say that out loud, butit is true.
Like they want to be able toprotect it.
And so you have, youspecifically have avenues to
make that happen that maybeother people in your field do
(23:00):
not have, which is very specialbecause.
And you can go to other states,you know, yes, you can work with
other, lawyers within differentstates.
I mean, that to me is whenyou're looking at points of
differences and what, what youreally want.
If you can define success, Iwant to make sure that I get
(23:21):
Medicaid, I get my rights, and Ialso protect my assets in a very
safe and legal way.
Not every lawyer is set up to dothat.
Is that what you were saying?
If I understand it correctly?
Yes.
Sayge Grubbs (23:35):
And, and I wanna add to that, and this is a story
that I love to tell.
Cause this is one my, uh, I havea lot of favorite clients, but
this is one of my, cause this,the guy was in California, his
parents were here in Alabama.
And he has done, I would say,zoom calls with me to explain
(23:57):
this program that I startedcause of him.
And so, you know, he'll be thefirst to ring the bell.
Mm-hmm.
I'm still not gonna say hisname.
He'll, he'll be the first toring the bell.
But the thing is, when he camehome, you know, cause people can
decline so rapidly, when he camehome to visit his parents, one
(24:18):
parent was in the assistedliving and the other one was
going in and outta the hospital.
So he was worried about his mom.
Not his mom, his dad that was inthe assisted living, less
worried about his mom because atleast she was going in the
hospital.
But then she'd come home.
So he came home for a couple ofweeks, and when I say home, he
(24:41):
just came back to visit hisparents to help get their
affairs in order, and he thoughteverything was fine.
He goes back to California,receives a phone call that
suddenly dance in the nursinghome.
And now mom's going into anassisted living and you know,
his head and his mind space atthat point was like, wait a
minute.
I was just there like two, threeweeks ago.
(25:04):
And the only option you know,that the nursing home was giving
him to get on Medicaid was tosign over in his words, sign
over the house to Medicaid.
In other words, let Medicaid puta Medicaid lien on it.
Parents didn't have much else,but he knew they paid their
house off and it was worth about110,$120,000.
(25:28):
So that just did not sit rightwith him.
Okay.
He talked to some attorneys andyou know, a lot of times when
you're talking about doingMedicaid planning, uh, we use
what's called the regionaldevisor.
And we say that's gonna be theminimum amount it's going to
cost to do a Medicaid case at alaw firm.
(25:50):
Right.
And depending on what all you'retrying to do, we multiply that
regional advisor, uh, by two byone, I mean, not by one, by two
or two and a half, right?
So an attorney was like, that.
He talked to, was like, well,your parents don't have the
money to do the spend down, soyou know, the lien just has to
(26:11):
go in the house.
Another attorney talked to, samething.
Are you a, they asked him, areyou gonna pay for it?
Mm-hmm.
And he's like, well, why shouldI have to pay for it?
You know?
He was like, we're trying to getour parents on.
It's my understanding that theyhave to pay for it.
And so basically he's hittinghis head on wall.
A realtor who I'd done somestuff for, got him to me and I
(26:34):
said, it's a shame that theyhave this house.
And they paid it off.
And the family's going to losehis house.
So I started a program that Icall the Medicaid Quick Sale
Program.
And so what we did, you know, hewas out in California, I was
here in Alabama.
(26:54):
But thankfully, due to the typeof law I practice, I've dealt
with a lot of asset protectionfor real estate investors.
So I put that house on a list assoon as his, uh, Dad went into
the nursing home.
You know, he had to be in therefor 30 days before we could
actually apply him, right?
(27:17):
And so we got that house soldwithin the 30 days.
We were able to actually get thefamily a inheritance and for it
to go exactly the way the momand dad had left it in their
wheel.
And we also paid for a prepaid.
We did two funeral trusts, so weprepaid for two funerals with
(27:38):
funeral trusts.
And when we did the math, uh, itwas amazing that when we signed
everything, got everything done.
His mom passed away the dayafter she signed everything.
Wow.
And we were like, it was almostas if she was holding on to make
sure that her house was going togo to her children, you know?
(28:01):
Yeah.
Cause she had to sign the de,she had to sign the deed and
everything.
Yeah.
That's amazing.
For the closing.
And the closing attorney waslike calling me frantic and she
was like, Hey, what time did thelady pass away?
Cause we gotta make sure that,uh, This, this clothes is legit.
And I was like, yeah, it'slegit.
Like she passed away, you know,about 36 hours after she signed
(28:21):
the, the documents.
Cause I had to mail thedocuments and everything.
And I was sitting there and wewere doing the math.
I was doing the math with himand he said, Sarge, when we do
the math, the house sold forabout 80 grand.
He said, we were able to putabout 40 grand in our pocket.
(28:42):
Plus we paid for two funerals,so that was eight grand and
eight grand.
Plus he was able to getreimbursed for stuff.
I was able to, uh, work it outfor him to get reimbursed for
like the washer and dryer andall the stuff he bought for his
pants when he came down thefirst time.
So he put all that money back inhis pocket or in the family's
(29:05):
pocket so they could split it upand.
He wasn't out of pocket forcoming, going, any of that.
Mm-hmm.
And he said, you know, we stillpay the nursing home about three
months or four months beforethey qualified, but they, they
had basically used like 70% ofthe assets.
(29:28):
The way that he said his mom anddad would've wanted it done.
Mm-hmm.
Even though they didn't have thehouse, they still got the
inheritance from it.
Mm-hmm.
Which, if you look at whatwould've happened if we hadn't
done the Medicaid quick saleprogram, house would've went
into Medicaid, mom would'vepassed away.
They'd have been$8,000 out ofpocket.
(29:49):
Uh, for the funeral.
So, and he said, and then whendad passes, that'd be another
eight grand.
Plus he would've been outtapocket for the stuff he'd bought
for the house and everything.
So he was like, you know, wewent from 70% positive, uh, when
it was supposed to be like a 20plus grand negative, you know,
(30:12):
and that's amazing.
And it was just sad me that alot of attorneys look at
Medicaid planning.
That way to where when someonelike that walks in and they're
like, we just really have ahouse.
Um, you know, they just go,well, you don't have any, any
money to, uh, to protect, youknow?
Um, but yeah, so that's a, I'm,I'm proud of that program we
(30:33):
like to do.
Mm-hmm.
And, you know, it's easy for thepeople cause we get paid at the
closing.
So our legal fees are paid atthe closing.
So it's like I'm putting myselfout there and taking a risk by
saying, Hey, I'm not a realtor,but I know plenty of them.
I know plenty of investors and,and we're gonna help you get
this household before we have toactually put it on the Medicaid
(30:54):
application and get Medicaid'spermission.
Erin Thompson (30:58):
Yeah, I mean, that's an amazing story.
You can take so much from thatstory.
A pre-planning would've saved alot of anxiety, period.
Yes.
Um, B, you can never, everdepend on one parent to be
healthy if the other parent issick, because that doesn't
always stay that way.
(31:20):
And C, you have to find theright person to help you because
there's a lot of people thatjust judge a book by its cover.
And when you find somebody whois willing to get in the
trenches with you, that'svaluable.
And then you have a story totell.
That will get you more peoplebecause you do care.
(31:42):
I mean, that is a story, that'sa point of difference that I
will say, if you want somebodyin the trenches with you, then
Sayge from Sage Legacy Councilis, is that a person?
Because that is an amazingstory.
Um, that's why we do what we do.
It's not about the money youhave to get paid, right?
Sure, yeah.
Yeah.
We have to
Sayge Grubbs (32:00):
get paid.
Yeah, I got, but I got, look,I'm a girl dad, so I got four
weddings to pay for.
At some point
Erin Thompson (32:07):
y'all, he's got four girls.
That's great.
That's great, that's great.
But you want to give your moneyto somebody who's willing to.
To invest in you.
Like I want to give my money tosomebody who wants to do the
right thing for me.
And just because it's the rightthing and because you're
(32:28):
passionate about it, like thatis so critical.
I was
Sayge Grubbs (32:32):
gonna, yeah, I was gonna say, it's funny you say
that because we do a lot ofeducational events or, or at
least I'm asked to come andspeak at different educational
events, and sometimes we'll talkabout a trust and people will
come in.
And, uh, you know, my wife's afinancial advisor and so
sometimes they'll come in,they'll be meeting with her, uh,
(32:53):
cause maybe she spoke and thenall of a sudden they're in my
office and then they get mad atme.
Cause I say, okay, for, you'retrying to, for don't need.
And as, as, as, as if she's mymanager or my boss.
Like it is almost like they'relike, well, lemme talk to your
supervisor.
You know what I mean?
So it's like, where's yoursupervisor?
(33:13):
They'll go back to her officeand be like, uh, tell your
husband to sell me this trust.
You know what I mean?
And you know, she'll say, well,he's not gonna sell you.
Anything he's going to, youknow, help you get the best
plan, uh, that you want and thatyou need.
And, you know, I'm not, andthat's that.
I mean, that's about.
(33:36):
If you don't need a trust, youknow?
I mean it just, it
Erin Thompson (33:38):
just is what it's.
But the reason to get a trust isto avoid probate at all costs.
And for the most part, that'sworth it.
If you have the money that isworth it and you want to provide
a peaceful experience for yourloved ones, a trust for just
that reason is worth it.
Um, but if you want to protectmore protection, You will have
(34:01):
to go to a specific lawyer likeSayge from Sage Legacy Council
or find somebody that can dothat particular type of trust
that he's referring to.
So we had
Sayge Grubbs (34:13):
talked, this is Asset Protection trust, asset
Protect, asset protection trust.
And you gotta remember, allasset protection trusts are not
created equal.
You would look what the type oftrust you want to look for.
Is a asset protection trust thatallows you to actually be the
(34:35):
trustee.
Meaning that you don't have topay your CPA or the attorney
that drafted it, you know, oryour cousin or someone else to
actually be the trustee.
That's if you were just lookingfor what I would call.
Asset protection that's gonnaprotect your stuff from Medicaid
lawsuits, things of that nature.
(34:56):
Now there are other assetprotection trusts that are a lot
more cumbersome and a lot moreadvanced.
Uh, but for, I would say as welike to say, the 99% the regular
asset protection trust, thatallows you to be the trustee,
which is a special type of assetprotection trust.
But it will work wonders.
(35:17):
Uh, you know, I've got clientsthat have those that are
surgeons.
I've got clients that have thosethat are farmers.
Um, retired athletes.
So, you know, it works acrossthe board, uh, from the little
old lady that just wants protecther, her one house and her
$10,000 to, you know, the guythat's got a Rose Royce in the,
in the driveway.
Erin Thompson (35:37):
So, yeah.
Yeah.
So it's important.
If somebody says that you can'tdo that, you have to know that
you can.
Yes.
You just have to find the rightperson.
Yes.
Um, and so just to end thepodcast in a way, you and I were
speaking earlier about some redflags, and I think it's
important because there are alot of scammers out there and is
(35:59):
specifically, um, who want totarget asset planning and also
just seniors in general.
So the lowest, let's just sayyou're going to a lawyer who,
who specializes in asset.
Protection like this, what wouldbe the range that you can feel
(36:20):
comfortable?
That I could feel comfortable inknowing that my end result is
what I want it to be.
Whether or not it's the specialkind of trust that we're talking
about, or if it's just therevocable trust or the
irrevocable trust.
You know, is the range like 1500or if you buy something for$299,
(36:42):
that is something that we shouldbe thinking about.
Sayge Grubbs (36:45):
Yeah, so there's a difference between just having a
document and actually having aplan, right?
Mm-hmm.
So if you just have a document,it may not fit into anything
else you have going on, and.
Sadly, probably the person thatsold it to you hasn't truly
explained to you how to use it,how to actually do what we call
(37:07):
funding when we're talking abouta trust, which that's the
process of actually puttingstuff in the trust so that the
trust owns it, right?
Because if you don't fund thetrust And there's nothing in it,
then it's basically like a penwith no ink, you know?
Yes.
so you gotta put the ink in thepen now.
what I would say anywhere froma, if you're just talking about
(37:29):
a standalone trust or, or acomplete plan, you can get a
simple standalone trust, youknow, easily for probably, I
would say around$2,000.
Well, that's not an assetprotection trust, you know, um,
a full plan estate plan.
That I would trust wouldprobably start around$3,500.
(37:51):
Okay.
Now, when we talk assetprotection, of course the amount
goes up because of the benefits.
you know, cause you can getasset protection at both levels.
So for instance, an assetprotection trust, you can pass
stuff down to your kids and ifthey get divorced or something
happens to them, you know, theyget asset protection at that
(38:13):
level.
Their inheritance is theirs, youknow, they don't have to split
it with their, ex-spouse or whathave you.
So, you know, when you'relooking at those types of plans,
I would say they're gonna rangeanywhere from about 4,500, um,
all the way up to about 15,000,just depending on how many types
of trust and, and entities, uh,you're trying to protect and
(38:35):
things that you're trying to do.
as far as Medicaid planning isconcerned.
We use the regional divide.
A lot of people do it that way.
And if you look at your state,your Medicaid here in Alabama,
the regional advisor goes upjust a little bit every year.
So I like to say I get a raiseon Medicaid plan every year.
Um, you know, that's gonna startout at around$6,800.
(38:59):
And you know, if you have a verycomplex lot of stuff, type of
Medicaid case, you may belooking at.
You know, multiplying that bytwo, which would be looking
around 14, 15,000 for Medicaid.
But I would say the sweet spot'sprobably around 10.
So you're looking at about10,000 now?
Yeah.
People go, oh wow.
$10,000.
(39:19):
And I say, oh wow, you justsaved 60 to 75% of your stuff.
Yes.
You know?
So it's like there's gotta besome willingness to understand
that when you're saving, youknow, those, when you're, when
you're saving those kind ofassets, uh, for that kind of
price.
You know, it's like my guy said,he went.
(39:41):
Up 70%, save 70% versus being inthe whole, you know,$28,000 in
the hole.
Yeah.
So, you know, that's, to me,that's worth a little$10,000,
uh, bump to the attorney for,uh, Medicaid plan.
Erin Thompson (39:58):
Yeah.
I mean, big picture versus smallpicture, you know what I mean?
Like what's important to you iseventually gonna cost money, you
know, and.
That, that's just the piece ofit.
And sometimes what you want themost and how to set your family
up for success, if that'simportant to you, is going to
cost money to do that.
(40:20):
And we have a right to Medicaid.
Yeah, that's one of the
Sayge Grubbs (40:23):
red flags we call them, uh, attorneys that do what
I do.
We call it a trust mill.
You'll see them advertisesometimes they notoriously pray
on churches.
And they come in and they offerthese cut rate prices, these
special prices.
They come, they spend a day,they get a whole bunch of trust
done, but nothing is trulycustomized.
(40:43):
Like they don't take the time toactually learn about your family
dynamics and your familyfinances and what's important
and things of that nature.
You know, there's, it's merelylike, Hey, we're coming in and
we're gonna do a hundred.
Estate plans this weekend.
To me, that's a red flag.
Yeah.
Uh, yes.
(41:04):
You know that that's a lot ofpeople.
There's no way for them tocustomize your stuff when
they're doing that many estateplans
Erin Thompson (41:12):
then that weekend.
And if they don't get to knowany details, then there is no
details that they're protecting.
There is no protection.
Sayge Grubbs (41:21):
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
And that's, you know, and I tellpeople all the time, that's why.
I laugh when I hear that AI orchat GPT or some of these other
stuff is just gonna replaceeverybody.
Cause I said, well, the computerhas never been a human so.
They can't sit, like the peoplein my office sit and I sit and
(41:44):
have conversations with familymembers and figure out, oh, I
just touched a button.
That's important.
Or, oh, you know, they wouldrather lose this than that, and
the reason may not make.
Sense to me, but it, but it'sobviously it makes a lot of
sense to them, you know?
Yeah.
So there's a lot of emotionstied to this whole aging process
(42:10):
cause everyone wants to makesure that their loved ones are
taken care of in the bestmanner, and the loved ones wanna
make sure they're not beingheadache and that, you know,
they're still looking out forthat next
Erin Thompson (42:21):
generation.
Yes, absolutely.
And I'm glad you do the workthat you do, and I hope to learn
a whole lot more from you.
But I'm looking forward toseeing you at this Successful
Aging Bootcamp, and I'm veryproud of the work that you've
done with seniors index.com andto be able to be a part of that.
So it's nice to know fellowpassionate people who want to do
(42:43):
good in the world.
That's nice.
So thank you for your time.
I was about
Sayge Grubbs (42:49):
thing all started.
From LinkedIn when I sent you amessage and I was like, Hey, you
know a lot.
I was
Erin Thompson (42:57):
like, yes, yes.
And I'm still learning so muchabout this and all of that.
So yes.
I mean, it's just so nice to,it's amazing how this digital
world is so helpful to, to unitepeople with, with similar
interests.
It's, it's pretty inspiring.
So yeah, I'm happy to be part.
(43:19):
Thanks for having me.
Yes, thank you.
And, I'll see you soon.
Okay.
All right.
May 19th.
I'm, so very proud of thatinterview.
I learned a lot.
I hope you did too.
Here are my five takeaways fromthis interview.
The Estate planning or any typeof planning is better to start
(43:40):
when it is not needed.
Then when it is.
Because when that time comes.
And those plans are needed.
It's already laid out for youand there's no stress.
Number 2.
You can protect your assets andstill be eligible for Medicaid
benefits.
Not a lot of people say that.
A lot of people think, and I wasone of those that thought that
(44:01):
Medicaid would come back andtake their portion.
And that is true.
Not all trusts are createdequal.
Number 3, not all lawyers can dothis.
This type of trust.
Ask specifically for the assetprotection trust.
That has the ability to keep youas the trustee.
(44:24):
Number 4.
Not all lawyers or peopleclaiming to be able to write
trust for you can actually dothat.
So be very aware and cautious ofpeople who claim that they can
create a trust for you and thencharge you less than a thousand
dollars.
A, good trust.
Irrevocable trust a simple trustis going to cost you at least
$1500 to$2,000.
(44:47):
Just a red flag for you to thinkabout Number 5.
If you live in the state ofAlabama, look up seniors,
index.com.
Give it a shot.
It may be able to lead you inthe right direction.
I'm so excited too.
Be able to get this podcastepisode out for you to listen
to.
I, um, interviewed Sayge Grubbsan elder law attorney from
Montgomery, Alabama.
I met him through this wholedigital world, and it's just
fascinating to see hownetworking can grow just by
(00:55):
finding people that areconnected and making the world a
better place for our seniors.
For our elderly loved ones.
Sayge Grubbs is a university ofAlabama law school graduate and
is the founder of Sage legacycounsel and estate planning law
firm, where he focuses on assetprotection and other estate
planning needs.
(01:16):
His passion for serving hiscommunity came from his
childhood.
Working in the funeral home, hisfamily operated and later
working with his father attorneyNorman Grubbs while in law
school.
Through Sage's work at the Sagelegacy council.
He recognized a need for morefactual information, easily
accessible to his clients andothers in the state of Alabama.
(01:37):
And therefore senior's index.comwas born.
Seniors index.com is a networkof vetted and caring senior care
providers that share the samebelief that families and
caregivers need factualinformation available in one
place and easily accessible.
Hope you enjoy the episode.
Erin Thompson (01:57):
Thank you so much Sayge for being here today.
I appreciate your time and I'mhonored that I am able to speak
at your event coming up and anhonor and be a part of your
Seniors Index program that youhave going on.
So I want you to take it awayand tell us everything about the
event and about Seniors Index aswell.
(02:20):
Well, thank you
Sayge Grubbs (02:21):
and thank you for being one of our key speakers.
We are here in the river regionin Montgomery, and in this area
there is an organization calledMACOA.
And so this event is going tohelp donate some funds to their
Meals on Wheels program, whichtakes meals to seniors that are
(02:42):
in need.
And I mean, they deliver a lotof meals on a weekly basis, like
Monday through Friday.
So we annually partner.
With them to do an event, and itkind of slowed down during
Covid.
But the event is called TheSuccessful Aging Bootcamp, and
it's May 19th.
(03:03):
It's from 10 to three at VaunForest Church.
And the whole goal and objectiveof the Successful Aging Bootcamp
is to allow, I would say, notonly family caregivers, but that
sandwich generation.
They can come get answers.
So one of the things that I'venoticed just from my law
(03:26):
practice being an a, an elderlaw attorney, is that people can
get what I say lost in therabbit hole when they get on
Google or when they starttalking to other family members.
Or friends about their optionsfor their parents or their loved
ones, you know, or their spousewhen it comes to home care or
(03:48):
going into a facility, whetherit's a, even an independent
facility or an assisted living,or any of those types of
facilities.
It can just get confusingbecause the laws change from
state state and, and things arejust different.
So what might have worked foryour aunt in Michigan or Florida
is not gonna work in Alabama.
And so, you know, at this eventwe're going to shed light on
(04:12):
what does work here in the stateof Alabama and we're gonna shed
light on how to actually, or Ishould say not we, but you we're
gonna shed light on actually howto have that talk with people.
And, you know, their loved onesabout how to actually, navigate
this aging process.
(04:32):
And I'm excited because I thinkwe have a, a good group of
people that are going to be onthe expert panel at the end,
answer a lot of questions.
We have a lady that's going tospeak in the beginning named
Angela Boyd, and she's going todiscuss Medicare and all the
different options there.
Of course, I will do a talk.
On asset protection and how toprotect your loved ones assets
(04:56):
so they don't go broke in thenursing home.
And I think, you know, we'regonna raise a lot of money.
We're gonna have a lot of fun,and it's gonna be a great event.
I mean, seriously, if you havesomeone who's already receiving
home care, or if you havesomeone that is in a facility
already, you know, to me this isa.
(05:17):
Not miss type of event, likethere's nowhere else can you go
and get this group of people andthese types of experts all in
the same room to answer your
Erin Thompson (05:28):
questions.
Yeah, it sounds pretty powerful.
And, I get to talk about mygrandmother's story and how we
would go through every phase ofthe in-home caregiving, to
moving into assisted living,even a respite stay.
And then also my ability tocoach the thousands of family
members throughout my career,whether or not they moved in my
(05:49):
community or not, but problemsolving.
Their current situation.
So yeah, it's exciting and quitean honor and to be able to learn
from the expert panels and ofcourse asset protection being a
lot of what we wanna talk abouttoday, because there's so many
questions that I have about itthat I've also seen in my
experience as well.
(06:11):
And I have a lot of parents, inthat generation where, My
parents are divorced andremarried.
My husband's parents aredivorced and remarried, and I
have a lot of parents.
And so actually getting thequestions about trust and asset
protection is important becauseI want what's best for them.
And when you want what's bestfor your loved one, you can help
(06:31):
everybody else, which is reallyexciting.
So, I'm excited about that.
Again, it's May 19th and it's atVaughn Forest Church.
Sayge Grubbs (06:39):
in Montgomery, Alabama, and it's sponsored by
seniors index.com and I createdand founded Seniors Index,
mainly because my clients, I wastired of.
Talking with them and seeingthem go down that rabbit hole on
Google and other searches thatthey do, trying to figure out
(07:02):
what's what and, and you knowwho to talk to, who's reliable,
who's this and that.
So, you know, I said, how can Ihelp lessen the stress of my
clients?
Which turned into me saying, howcan I help lessen the stress?
Of people that are going throughthis aging process and have
family members that they'retrying to help.
(07:24):
Right?
So by lessening the stress, theeasiest thing to do is
information.
Yes.
You know, the correctinformation, the right
information, vetted, curatedinformation that state specific.
I had a person say, well, youknow, that website's going to be
full of advertorials.
And I said, well, if someone isjust putting advertorials on
(07:46):
there, then they really won'tget any business because no
one's going to just readsomething that just says, use
me, use me, use me, use me.
Right?
So we try to make sure thateverything on the site, Has some
good information and educationthat you can use.
That's state specific here forthe state of Alabama, and it's
free.
So for the public it's 100%free, you know, to join, to get
(08:09):
on there to become part of thecommunity.
There's, uh, dashboards onthere, so if you just have a
question or topic you'd like todiscuss in senior care, you can
put it on dashboard.
People will come in and answeryou.
And, you know, in order toregister for the event, you just
have to get on seniors indexcom.
And click on the button.
So seniors index.com is helpingput this event on because we at
(08:36):
Senior Index really believe thatit's very important for people
to get the right information, toget educated.
On these topics and you know,actually hear it from experts,
people that are in the industrythat are doing this on a daily
basis, helping family memberssolve these problems and these
issues, right?
So with that being said, you canclick on the very top where it
(09:00):
says RSVP Bootcamp.
So if you go to seniorsindex.com, you just click on
that button, RSVP bootcamp, andthen a page will pop up.
And it'll say, you know, fillout this form and hit submit.
You just fill that out.
RSVP.
We only have a certain number ofspots available and for everyone
(09:22):
that's coming, we're just askingthat you donate$15 to hear all
this good information.
You'll get a swag bag from allthe people that are there and
all the experts, but we're justasking you to donate$15 to help
us go ahead and, build some,what I would say, Good vibes for
MACOA and all the meals onwheels that they're serving,
(09:43):
Monday through Friday, everyweek here in the, in the river
Erin Thompson (09:46):
region.
It's nice to partner with peoplewho have a heart to serve.
You know, I mean, we all are ina business.
We have to make money, butreally, ultimately it's a
business to serve people, andthis is a great way of doing
that with seniors index.com, andthen also events like this.
To just educate, empower, andequip family members and
(10:08):
residents or elderly peoplethemselves on how to make the
best choices for themselves toreally just define success for
them at every stage of thecaregiving journey or you know,
your life's journey.
So that is very inspiring.
It's nice to see a lawyer do agood thing.
(10:29):
You know what I mean?
Let it go sa let
Sayge Grubbs (10:33):
it go.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Yes.
Hey, we're not, we're not allout chasing ambulances.
Erin Thompson (10:41):
That's good.
That's important.
That's important to note.
And for me, it's important to beable to focus in on the state of
Alabama, which for my entirecareer I haven't been able to do
so.
Um, I've worked for largercompanies and so it's really
nice just to be able to, tospeak to people in Alabama, and
to, you know, equip them withstrategies to help them be
(11:06):
successful throughout theirjourney.
So that's exciting.
Again, May 19th, and you can goto seniors index.com to
register.
So I wanna get into the nuts andbolts of Sage Legacy Council and
Asset Protection because there'sa lot of people that ask
(11:26):
questions and of course I can'tanswer those questions.
And like I said, I have parentswho are, Looking at protecting
their assets for the future.
And I have had people questionme, how do I protect my loved
one's assets?
and when we're looking atMedicaid and how they look back
five years and all of the, thehoops that people have to go
(11:48):
through to even get Medicaid,and I want you to explain to us
how you advise people to dothat.
Number one.
We'll start there.
And then what are some of thered flags to look for And To me,
an average cost of whatsomething they can trust can be.
(12:10):
So those are our threequestions, but we'll start with
number one, how do you protectassets?
How do you do that?
Well, you gotta use
Sayge Grubbs (12:19):
the right type of trust.
Okay?
I tell people all the time,there's three types of planning
you can do.
You can do no planning, whichis.
What majority of Americans haveyou can do will planning, which
is the most popular, or you cando trust planning.
Trust planning is the onlyplanning that can actually help
(12:40):
you protect your assets as faras the state planning is
concerned.
Now, when we say trust planning,they're three different types of
trust.
So, you know, everything comesin threes, right?
Mm-hmm.
Um, you got three types ofplans, three types of trust.
You've got a revocable livingtrust, which helps you skip
(13:00):
probate.
It allows you to be the owner ofthe trust.
You can be the manager, or whatwe like to call the trustee of
the trust.
And you can benefit the trust,which is everybody's favorite
position, because the personthat benefits is a person that
can actually receive the moneyor the house, home, whatever's.
In the trust, right?
(13:21):
So in that type of trust or aliving trust, you get all the
benefits, but asset protection.
So then people came along andthey said, well, we want asset
protection, and they created airrevocable trust.
That'd be the second type oftrust.
Now, the irrevocable trust,within and of itself allows you
(13:42):
to skip probate, allows you toprotect your assets, and you own
the trust.
What we like to say.
The problem though, a lot oftimes is that you aren't the
trustee or the manager of thetrust, meaning you cannot do
anything with the stuff that'sactually in it.
Once you put it in there, it'sthere and it's done.
(14:03):
Also, you can't benefit from it,so you can't take anything out
and give it to yourself.
So for a long time, that was themain way that people did asset
protection.
I happen to have joined anassociation where we have kind
of a hybrid of those two trusts,which is why I say there's three
types of trust.
(14:24):
It's
a
irrevocable trust, and we use it for asset
protection planning.
But because it's a special typeof trust, it allows the person
to still be their own manager ortrustee, which is huge because
that means if you put your housein there, well you're still in
charge of your house, right?
(14:44):
And the other one, theirrevocable one, where you can't
be in charge or the trustee ifyou put your house in there,
well, you're not in charge ofyour own house anymore.
You know what I mean?
Your trustee is, so if theywanna sell it or do something,
there's nothing you can do aboutit.
Also, in the third type, whichis kind of a hybrid, You can
(15:06):
actually be a beneficiary.
So not only do you get the assetprotection from Medicaid or a
creditor or credit or lawsuit,but you get to be in charge and
you can actually receive moneyand things like that outta the
trust.
And the funny thing about usinga trust is something that we
call Medicaid freeze that Idon't think people will
(15:26):
understand or take advantage of.
So for instance, becauseMedicaid looks back five years,
Let's say you put a hundredthousand dollars in the trust,
right?
Well, all Medicaid seizes duringthat five year period is a
hundred thousand dollars.
Now, if that hundred thousanddollars is one of these, you
(15:47):
know, unicorn cryptos orsomething, and it doubles within
five years, and it's now at200,000, well they can't see
that growth.
They can't see that hundredthousand dollars growth.
Your amount that they can see isfrozen at that hundred thousand
that you originally put in.
So that's another reason whytrust is so important when it
(16:07):
comes to this type of planningand when we're doing Medicaid
planning or long-term careplanning for, you know,
facilities, whether even if it'sassisted living and someone's a
veteran.
And they're trying to get what'scalled VA eight in attendance.
Mm-hmm.
That still has a look back.
It's got a three year look back.
So we still use trust planningfor that same type of trust,
(16:30):
same type of deal, differentrules than Medicaid.
But you know, just as important.
And when we're doing that typeof planning, you know, you can
either do pre-planning or youcan do crisis planning.
Pre-planning is everybody'shealthy, everybody's okay.
You know, uh, maybe someone'swent to the hospital, but you
(16:53):
know, you haven't signed up fora home caregiver to come in.
Things of that nature.
That is all pre-planning.
Crisis planning is when you aresitting in the assisted living
or as you know, you're sittingin rehab and they tell you, you
got 21 days and it's day 19, andthey're like, And they're like,
(17:13):
Hey, you are about to go to theskilled nursing facility.
Okay?
Mm-hmm.
That is crisis planning.
Now, in both types of planning,you know, that's kind of what we
focus on.
We focus on the pre-planning andthe crisis planning, but in both
types of planning, you can savea lot of assets.
(17:34):
Like our goal is to make surethat that person had a will.
That it's followed and thatthose people can still receive
that stuff through our trustplanning, right?
And that that stuff doesn't getliquidated and eaten up.
Now, sometimes the best thing todo is to liquidate some stuff,
but if, as I tell people, if Iliquidate something and I get a
(17:57):
hundred thousand dollars and Idon't have any plan at all,
well, until I spend$98,000 ofthat, I don't qualify for
Medicaid, right?
Correct.
Now, this person wanted to givethat, let's say, to their two
kids, well now I've got ahundred thousand dollars and I
(18:19):
wanted to give it to my twokids.
I don't have a plan.
I've gotta spend 98,000 before Iqualify for Medicaid.
So my kids aren't going to getanything if you do pre-planning
in that same scenario.
You may possibly be able to savea whole hundred thousand and
qualify for Medicaid if you docrisis planning.
(18:40):
In that scenario, you may stillbe able to save like 60,000 and
still qualify for Medicaid.
So the timing of when someoneplans is key, yet it's better to
plan than to not plan at
Erin Thompson (18:53):
all.
Yeah, I mean, A, a trustcompletely.
Negate probate altogether, whichis worth having a trust, I would
say, for the people.
Yes.
On the other side, it's worthhaving a trust just to not have
to go through probate becausethere's a lot of things that
people don't realize when youhave to go through that process,
(19:14):
that can really hinder you fromforward progress on anything
that you wanna do.
Number two, I mean, pre-planningis important, especially if
there are assets.
Involved and if there are, ifthey are a veteran, because yes,
Aiden attendance is available topeople who have spent 90 days in
(19:36):
active duty with at least oneday being wartime for their
healthcare needs.
But there is that three yearlookback that five years ago was
not there.
So That's right.
If, if they earned it.
This pre-planning is veryimportant.
Because now they can get thepension that they rightfully
earned.
(19:56):
Um, and it's just if you loveyour, your, your people, this is
just the most peaceful way toset them up.
Yeah.
At a very, sad and traumatictime for them, you know.
So would you suggest like around65, I mean, of course we never
know, right?
And this is the perfect casescenario would be.
(20:19):
If you're gonna live to 85.
Right.
Which I know it's all based, Iguess, on the amount of assets
that you have and the differentkinds of things.
Yeah.
Like I'm asking a real simplequestion here.
Um, that is very complicated.
But if you were a person with a$100,000, let's just say all you
had was a$100,000 in liquid cashand maybe a house, right?
(20:43):
Nothing fancy, no LLCs, nothinglike that.
I mean, when you're looking atMedicare and all that other kind
of stuff, would you say thatthat's a perfect time to start
the process?
Yeah,
Sayge Grubbs (20:55):
that's, that's the exact time to start it.
Cause you're healthy and you cansave the most and put the best
plan in place because you'rehealthy.
You know, one of the ways to payis long-term care and people are
like, well I don't wantlong-term care insurance cause
it costs too much.
Mm-hmm.
Yet it's better to pay.
(21:16):
I tell people to pay$600 a monthnow than to pay$6,500 a month
later.
You know, and I'm just usingthat as example.
I don't know how much, you know,cause it's individual based.
A person's long term care maycost, but people believe it to
be very expensive on the otherhand.
If you don't have long-term careand you don't have a plan, then
(21:40):
the likelihood of you goingbroke, or, you know, even if, if
your spouse goes in thefacility, the likelihood of the
family going broke is very,very, very high.
Mm-hmm.
So the earlier someone plans thebetter.
And then also when you plan, itgives you that peace of mind.
Because if you use a firm likeours, which is, you know, this
(22:04):
is all we focus on.
You'll be able to say, Hey, thisjust happened.
What's my plan when thishappens?
Mm-hmm.
You know, Hey, this person justwent here in this type of
facility.
What's my plan when this person,goes in this type of facility?
So, you know, it, it's, it'salways better to have a roadmap
(22:26):
Yes.
And a plan to get yourdestination than it is to just
show up and file paperworksaying, Hey, Medicaid.
Here I am.
Do with me what you please.
Yes.
Erin Thompson (22:38):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And most people wanna protecttheir assets from Medicaid.
And I know that sound, I feellike that just feels like, I
shouldn't say that out loud, butit is true.
Like they want to be able toprotect it.
And so you have, youspecifically have avenues to
make that happen that maybeother people in your field do
(23:00):
not have, which is very specialbecause.
And you can go to other states,you know, yes, you can work with
other, lawyers within differentstates.
I mean, that to me is whenyou're looking at points of
differences and what, what youreally want.
If you can define success, Iwant to make sure that I get
(23:21):
Medicaid, I get my rights, and Ialso protect my assets in a very
safe and legal way.
Not every lawyer is set up to dothat.
Is that what you were saying?
If I understand it correctly?
Yes.
Sayge Grubbs (23:35):
And, and I wanna add to that, and this is a story
that I love to tell.
Cause this is one my, uh, I havea lot of favorite clients, but
this is one of my, cause this,the guy was in California, his
parents were here in Alabama.
And he has done, I would say,zoom calls with me to explain
(23:57):
this program that I startedcause of him.
And so, you know, he'll be thefirst to ring the bell.
Mm-hmm.
I'm still not gonna say hisname.
He'll, he'll be the first toring the bell.
But the thing is, when he camehome, you know, cause people can
decline so rapidly, when he camehome to visit his parents, one
(24:18):
parent was in the assistedliving and the other one was
going in and outta the hospital.
So he was worried about his mom.
Not his mom, his dad that was inthe assisted living, less
worried about his mom because atleast she was going in the
hospital.
But then she'd come home.
So he came home for a couple ofweeks, and when I say home, he
(24:41):
just came back to visit hisparents to help get their
affairs in order, and he thoughteverything was fine.
He goes back to California,receives a phone call that
suddenly dance in the nursinghome.
And now mom's going into anassisted living and you know,
his head and his mind space atthat point was like, wait a
minute.
I was just there like two, threeweeks ago.
(25:04):
And the only option you know,that the nursing home was giving
him to get on Medicaid was tosign over in his words, sign
over the house to Medicaid.
In other words, let Medicaid puta Medicaid lien on it.
Parents didn't have much else,but he knew they paid their
house off and it was worth about110,$120,000.
(25:28):
So that just did not sit rightwith him.
Okay.
He talked to some attorneys andyou know, a lot of times when
you're talking about doingMedicaid planning, uh, we use
what's called the regionaldevisor.
And we say that's gonna be theminimum amount it's going to
cost to do a Medicaid case at alaw firm.
(25:50):
Right.
And depending on what all you'retrying to do, we multiply that
regional advisor, uh, by two byone, I mean, not by one, by two
or two and a half, right?
So an attorney was like, that.
He talked to, was like, well,your parents don't have the
money to do the spend down, soyou know, the lien just has to
(26:11):
go in the house.
Another attorney talked to, samething.
Are you a, they asked him, areyou gonna pay for it?
Mm-hmm.
And he's like, well, why shouldI have to pay for it?
You know?
He was like, we're trying to getour parents on.
It's my understanding that theyhave to pay for it.
And so basically he's hittinghis head on wall.
A realtor who I'd done somestuff for, got him to me and I
(26:34):
said, it's a shame that theyhave this house.
And they paid it off.
And the family's going to losehis house.
So I started a program that Icall the Medicaid Quick Sale
Program.
And so what we did, you know, hewas out in California, I was
here in Alabama.
(26:54):
But thankfully, due to the typeof law I practice, I've dealt
with a lot of asset protectionfor real estate investors.
So I put that house on a list assoon as his, uh, Dad went into
the nursing home.
You know, he had to be in therefor 30 days before we could
actually apply him, right?
(27:17):
And so we got that house soldwithin the 30 days.
We were able to actually get thefamily a inheritance and for it
to go exactly the way the momand dad had left it in their
wheel.
And we also paid for a prepaid.
We did two funeral trusts, so weprepaid for two funerals with
(27:38):
funeral trusts.
And when we did the math, uh, itwas amazing that when we signed
everything, got everything done.
His mom passed away the dayafter she signed everything.
Wow.
And we were like, it was almostas if she was holding on to make
sure that her house was going togo to her children, you know?
(28:01):
Yeah.
Cause she had to sign the de,she had to sign the deed and
everything.
Yeah.
That's amazing.
For the closing.
And the closing attorney waslike calling me frantic and she
was like, Hey, what time did thelady pass away?
Cause we gotta make sure that,uh, This, this clothes is legit.
And I was like, yeah, it'slegit.
Like she passed away, you know,about 36 hours after she signed
(28:21):
the, the documents.
Cause I had to mail thedocuments and everything.
And I was sitting there and wewere doing the math.
I was doing the math with himand he said, Sarge, when we do
the math, the house sold forabout 80 grand.
He said, we were able to putabout 40 grand in our pocket.
(28:42):
Plus we paid for two funerals,so that was eight grand and
eight grand.
Plus he was able to getreimbursed for stuff.
I was able to, uh, work it outfor him to get reimbursed for
like the washer and dryer andall the stuff he bought for his
pants when he came down thefirst time.
So he put all that money back inhis pocket or in the family's
(29:05):
pocket so they could split it upand.
He wasn't out of pocket forcoming, going, any of that.
Mm-hmm.
And he said, you know, we stillpay the nursing home about three
months or four months beforethey qualified, but they, they
had basically used like 70% ofthe assets.
(29:28):
The way that he said his mom anddad would've wanted it done.
Mm-hmm.
Even though they didn't have thehouse, they still got the
inheritance from it.
Mm-hmm.
Which, if you look at whatwould've happened if we hadn't
done the Medicaid quick saleprogram, house would've went
into Medicaid, mom would'vepassed away.
They'd have been$8,000 out ofpocket.
(29:49):
Uh, for the funeral.
So, and he said, and then whendad passes, that'd be another
eight grand.
Plus he would've been outtapocket for the stuff he'd bought
for the house and everything.
So he was like, you know, wewent from 70% positive, uh, when
it was supposed to be like a 20plus grand negative, you know,
(30:12):
and that's amazing.
And it was just sad me that alot of attorneys look at
Medicaid planning.
That way to where when someonelike that walks in and they're
like, we just really have ahouse.
Um, you know, they just go,well, you don't have any, any
money to, uh, to protect, youknow?
Um, but yeah, so that's a, I'm,I'm proud of that program we
(30:33):
like to do.
Mm-hmm.
And, you know, it's easy for thepeople cause we get paid at the
closing.
So our legal fees are paid atthe closing.
So it's like I'm putting myselfout there and taking a risk by
saying, Hey, I'm not a realtor,but I know plenty of them.
I know plenty of investors and,and we're gonna help you get
this household before we have toactually put it on the Medicaid
(30:54):
application and get Medicaid'spermission.
Erin Thompson (30:58):
Yeah, I mean, that's an amazing story.
You can take so much from thatstory.
A pre-planning would've saved alot of anxiety, period.
Yes.
Um, B, you can never, everdepend on one parent to be
healthy if the other parent issick, because that doesn't
always stay that way.
(31:20):
And C, you have to find theright person to help you because
there's a lot of people thatjust judge a book by its cover.
And when you find somebody whois willing to get in the
trenches with you, that'svaluable.
And then you have a story totell.
That will get you more peoplebecause you do care.
(31:42):
I mean, that is a story, that'sa point of difference that I
will say, if you want somebodyin the trenches with you, then
Sayge from Sage Legacy Councilis, is that a person?
Because that is an amazingstory.
Um, that's why we do what we do.
It's not about the money youhave to get paid, right?
Sure, yeah.
Yeah.
We have to
Sayge Grubbs (32:00):
get paid.
Yeah, I got, but I got, look,I'm a girl dad, so I got four
weddings to pay for.
At some point
Erin Thompson (32:07):
y'all, he's got four girls.
That's great.
That's great, that's great.
But you want to give your moneyto somebody who's willing to.
To invest in you.
Like I want to give my money tosomebody who wants to do the
right thing for me.
And just because it's the rightthing and because you're
(32:28):
passionate about it, like thatis so critical.
I was
Sayge Grubbs (32:32):
gonna, yeah, I was gonna say, it's funny you say
that because we do a lot ofeducational events or, or at
least I'm asked to come andspeak at different educational
events, and sometimes we'll talkabout a trust and people will
come in.
And, uh, you know, my wife's afinancial advisor and so
sometimes they'll come in,they'll be meeting with her, uh,
(32:53):
cause maybe she spoke and thenall of a sudden they're in my
office and then they get mad atme.
Cause I say, okay, for, you'retrying to, for don't need.
And as, as, as, as if she's mymanager or my boss.
Like it is almost like they'relike, well, lemme talk to your
supervisor.
You know what I mean?
So it's like, where's yoursupervisor?
(33:13):
They'll go back to her officeand be like, uh, tell your
husband to sell me this trust.
You know what I mean?
And you know, she'll say, well,he's not gonna sell you.
Anything he's going to, youknow, help you get the best
plan, uh, that you want and thatyou need.
And, you know, I'm not, andthat's that.
I mean, that's about.
(33:36):
If you don't need a trust, youknow?
I mean it just, it
Erin Thompson (33:38):
just is what it's.
But the reason to get a trust isto avoid probate at all costs.
And for the most part, that'sworth it.
If you have the money that isworth it and you want to provide
a peaceful experience for yourloved ones, a trust for just
that reason is worth it.
Um, but if you want to protectmore protection, You will have
(34:01):
to go to a specific lawyer likeSayge from Sage Legacy Council
or find somebody that can dothat particular type of trust
that he's referring to.
So we had
Sayge Grubbs (34:13):
talked, this is Asset Protection trust, asset
Protect, asset protection trust.
And you gotta remember, allasset protection trusts are not
created equal.
You would look what the type oftrust you want to look for.
Is a asset protection trust thatallows you to actually be the
(34:35):
trustee.
Meaning that you don't have topay your CPA or the attorney
that drafted it, you know, oryour cousin or someone else to
actually be the trustee.
That's if you were just lookingfor what I would call.
Asset protection that's gonnaprotect your stuff from Medicaid
lawsuits, things of that nature.
(34:56):
Now there are other assetprotection trusts that are a lot
more cumbersome and a lot moreadvanced.
Uh, but for, I would say as welike to say, the 99% the regular
asset protection trust, thatallows you to be the trustee,
which is a special type of assetprotection trust.
But it will work wonders.
(35:17):
Uh, you know, I've got clientsthat have those that are
surgeons.
I've got clients that have thosethat are farmers.
Um, retired athletes.
So, you know, it works acrossthe board, uh, from the little
old lady that just wants protecther, her one house and her
$10,000 to, you know, the guythat's got a Rose Royce in the,
in the driveway.
Erin Thompson (35:37):
So, yeah.
Yeah.
So it's important.
If somebody says that you can'tdo that, you have to know that
you can.
Yes.
You just have to find the rightperson.
Yes.
Um, and so just to end thepodcast in a way, you and I were
speaking earlier about some redflags, and I think it's
important because there are alot of scammers out there and is
(35:59):
specifically, um, who want totarget asset planning and also
just seniors in general.
So the lowest, let's just sayyou're going to a lawyer who,
who specializes in asset.
Protection like this, what wouldbe the range that you can feel
(36:20):
comfortable?
That I could feel comfortable inknowing that my end result is
what I want it to be.
Whether or not it's the specialkind of trust that we're talking
about, or if it's just therevocable trust or the
irrevocable trust.
You know, is the range like 1500or if you buy something for$299,
(36:42):
that is something that we shouldbe thinking about.
Sayge Grubbs (36:45):
Yeah, so there's a difference between just having a
document and actually having aplan, right?
Mm-hmm.
So if you just have a document,it may not fit into anything
else you have going on, and.
Sadly, probably the person thatsold it to you hasn't truly
explained to you how to use it,how to actually do what we call
(37:07):
funding when we're talking abouta trust, which that's the
process of actually puttingstuff in the trust so that the
trust owns it, right?
Because if you don't fund thetrust And there's nothing in it,
then it's basically like a penwith no ink, you know?
Yes.
so you gotta put the ink in thepen now.
what I would say anywhere froma, if you're just talking about
(37:29):
a standalone trust or, or acomplete plan, you can get a
simple standalone trust, youknow, easily for probably, I
would say around$2,000.
Well, that's not an assetprotection trust, you know, um,
a full plan estate plan.
That I would trust wouldprobably start around$3,500.
(37:51):
Okay.
Now, when we talk assetprotection, of course the amount
goes up because of the benefits.
you know, cause you can getasset protection at both levels.
So for instance, an assetprotection trust, you can pass
stuff down to your kids and ifthey get divorced or something
happens to them, you know, theyget asset protection at that
(38:13):
level.
Their inheritance is theirs, youknow, they don't have to split
it with their, ex-spouse or whathave you.
So, you know, when you'relooking at those types of plans,
I would say they're gonna rangeanywhere from about 4,500, um,
all the way up to about 15,000,just depending on how many types
of trust and, and entities, uh,you're trying to protect and
(38:35):
things that you're trying to do.
as far as Medicaid planning isconcerned.
We use the regional divide.
A lot of people do it that way.
And if you look at your state,your Medicaid here in Alabama,
the regional advisor goes upjust a little bit every year.
So I like to say I get a raiseon Medicaid plan every year.
Um, you know, that's gonna startout at around$6,800.
(38:59):
And you know, if you have a verycomplex lot of stuff, type of
Medicaid case, you may belooking at.
You know, multiplying that bytwo, which would be looking
around 14, 15,000 for Medicaid.
But I would say the sweet spot'sprobably around 10.
So you're looking at about10,000 now?
Yeah.
People go, oh wow.
$10,000.
(39:19):
And I say, oh wow, you justsaved 60 to 75% of your stuff.
Yes.
You know?
So it's like there's gotta besome willingness to understand
that when you're saving, youknow, those, when you're, when
you're saving those kind ofassets, uh, for that kind of
price.
You know, it's like my guy said,he went.
(39:41):
Up 70%, save 70% versus being inthe whole, you know,$28,000 in
the hole.
Yeah.
So, you know, that's, to me,that's worth a little$10,000,
uh, bump to the attorney for,uh, Medicaid plan.
Erin Thompson (39:58):
Yeah.
I mean, big picture versus smallpicture, you know what I mean?
Like what's important to you iseventually gonna cost money, you
know, and.
That, that's just the piece ofit.
And sometimes what you want themost and how to set your family
up for success, if that'simportant to you, is going to
cost money to do that.
(40:20):
And we have a right to Medicaid.
Yeah, that's one of the
Sayge Grubbs (40:23):
red flags we call them, uh, attorneys that do what
I do.
We call it a trust mill.
You'll see them advertisesometimes they notoriously pray
on churches.
And they come in and they offerthese cut rate prices, these
special prices.
They come, they spend a day,they get a whole bunch of trust
done, but nothing is trulycustomized.
(40:43):
Like they don't take the time toactually learn about your family
dynamics and your familyfinances and what's important
and things of that nature.
You know, there's, it's merelylike, Hey, we're coming in and
we're gonna do a hundred.
Estate plans this weekend.
To me, that's a red flag.
Yeah.
Uh, yes.
(41:04):
You know that that's a lot ofpeople.
There's no way for them tocustomize your stuff when
they're doing that many estateplans
Erin Thompson (41:12):
then that weekend.
And if they don't get to knowany details, then there is no
details that they're protecting.
There is no protection.
Sayge Grubbs (41:21):
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
And that's, you know, and I tellpeople all the time, that's why.
I laugh when I hear that AI orchat GPT or some of these other
stuff is just gonna replaceeverybody.
Cause I said, well, the computerhas never been a human so.
They can't sit, like the peoplein my office sit and I sit and
(41:44):
have conversations with familymembers and figure out, oh, I
just touched a button.
That's important.
Or, oh, you know, they wouldrather lose this than that, and
the reason may not make.
Sense to me, but it, but it'sobviously it makes a lot of
sense to them, you know?
Yeah.
So there's a lot of emotionstied to this whole aging process
(42:10):
cause everyone wants to makesure that their loved ones are
taken care of in the bestmanner, and the loved ones wanna
make sure they're not beingheadache and that, you know,
they're still looking out forthat next
Erin Thompson (42:21):
generation.
Yes, absolutely.
And I'm glad you do the workthat you do, and I hope to learn
a whole lot more from you.
But I'm looking forward toseeing you at this Successful
Aging Bootcamp, and I'm veryproud of the work that you've
done with seniors index.com andto be able to be a part of that.
So it's nice to know fellowpassionate people who want to do
(42:43):
good in the world.
That's nice.
So thank you for your time.
I was about
Sayge Grubbs (42:49):
thing all started.
From LinkedIn when I sent you amessage and I was like, Hey, you
know a lot.
I was
Erin Thompson (42:57):
like, yes, yes.
And I'm still learning so muchabout this and all of that.
So yes.
I mean, it's just so nice to,it's amazing how this digital
world is so helpful to, to unitepeople with, with similar
interests.
It's, it's pretty inspiring.
So yeah, I'm happy to be part.
(43:19):
Thanks for having me.
Yes, thank you.
And, I'll see you soon.
Okay.
All right.
May 19th.
I'm, so very proud of thatinterview.
I learned a lot.
I hope you did too.
Here are my five takeaways fromthis interview.
The Estate planning or any typeof planning is better to start
(43:40):
when it is not needed.
Then when it is.
Because when that time comes.
And those plans are needed.
It's already laid out for youand there's no stress.
Number 2.
You can protect your assets andstill be eligible for Medicaid
benefits.
Not a lot of people say that.
A lot of people think, and I wasone of those that thought that
(44:01):
Medicaid would come back andtake their portion.
And that is true.
Not all trusts are createdequal.
Number 3, not all lawyers can dothis.
This type of trust.
Ask specifically for the assetprotection trust.
That has the ability to keep youas the trustee.
(44:24):
Number 4.
Not all lawyers or peopleclaiming to be able to write
trust for you can actually dothat.
So be very aware and cautious ofpeople who claim that they can
create a trust for you and thencharge you less than a thousand
dollars.
A, good trust.
Irrevocable trust a simple trustis going to cost you at least
$1500 to$2,000.
(44:47):
Just a red flag for you to thinkabout Number 5.
If you live in the state ofAlabama, look up seniors,
index.com.
Give it a shot.
It may be able to lead you inthe right direction.
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