June 20, 2021 • 36 mins
Sports pundit and former rugby union player David Flatman joins Naomi on the iCandy Duo Podcast. After representing England eight times and playing club rugby for Saracens and Bath, David is now retired from the sport but there is certainly no time to put his feet up. David is Dad to an 11 year old and 9 year old and has a baby on the way, so we caught up with him to chat about the new chapter ahead and to hear his thoughts on divorce, blended families and paternal mental health.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to the eye-candy DUI podcast with me,
Naomi Williams, a 30 somethingparents of none baffled by how
much it's undiscussed in theworld of pregnancy and
parenthood.
I'll be asking the questionsbecause you want the answers to
on this podcast, which isbrought to you.
I can be world makers ofbeautifully British Bush stares
for parents across the globe.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
[inaudible],
Speaker 1 (00:33):
We're delighted to be joined on the eye-candy GA
podcast by sports pundit andformer rugby union player.
David Flatman after representingEngland eight times and playing
club rugby for Saracens and bath.
David is now a from the sport,but there is certainly no time
to put his feet up.
David, his dad to an 11 year oldand a nine year old and has a
baby on the way.
(00:54):
So we caught up with him to chatabout the new chapter ahead.
Thank you so much for comingonto the eye candy duo podcast.
David, how you doing?
Speaker 3 (01:06):
I'm very well, thank you.
It's a pleasure to be here.
I'm I'm just enjoying a coffee,um, a lunchtime coffee.
It's lunchtime where I am now inmy time zone.
And it's the first fuel invertedcommas I've taken today because,
um, I am, as my mum used to say,I'm on a diet again, but I'm not
(01:26):
really, I'm just trying to eatless food because my jeans don't
fit.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
You know, I, I been exactly the same place as you
with eight, don't get me wrong.
I am so excited with the easingof lockdown and all the rest of
it, but I do get this kind ofpit of the stomach panic.
Every time we get closer andcloser to being sort of out in
the big wide world, because I'mlike, when is this diet actually
going to happen?
Because I know from next weeksite.
(01:51):
Right?
Okay.
So we've now got X amount oftime.
Um, and the diet gets more andmore extreme.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
I mean, you know, now it's things are getting sociable
now.
So yeah, I dunno.
I dunno how I'm going tobasically, I mean, our dilemmas
might be a slightly differentI'm thinking, how do I stay
below 20 stone in 2021?
That's what I'm doing.
That's my aim.
I'm naturally quite a big chap.
Um, so I holler if I, if I, youknow, if I don't eat, I'm about
(02:22):
19 stone, if I do a I'm about21.
So I need to just, I, uh, youknow, from a rugby background,
I've spent all of my adult, mostof my adult life and not my
teenage years trying to put onas much mass as possible.
And the truth is I basicallycan't get rid of it.
So I just want my jeans.
I don't want to have to undo myjeans when I'm driving down the
(02:44):
motorway.
So bit
Speaker 1 (02:46):
No, Juno, I liked that as a humble goal.
That's all we want.
Yeah.
I have to say, I do quite likeyou're keeping under 20 stones
flip it, make the diet with aslightly different dynamic
Speaker 3 (03:00):
20 in 20, 22.
I'll try and stay below 21.
So I'm always one year behind.
I feel like I'm in front.
Um, I mean, I, I, sometimes I,you know, I did go to the
doctors a couple of years agojust for something else.
And I said, well, while I'mhere, can I have a check and
sort of mot?
And he said, you can't havethose, wait, you can't just have
an mot on the NHS.
They cost money.
And I said, what if I told you Iwas having dizzy spells or
(03:21):
whatever?
He said, here we go, right.
Run a few tests.
And he said, everything's fine.
Your cholesterol is fine.
I said, at this point, I said,I'm 20 stone eight and I'm six
foot tall.
He said, yeah, you're absolutelyfine.
This is the size you meant tobe.
Oh God, really?
Speaker 1 (03:35):
But at the same breath, can I get that?
Like on my answer phone, can Iget that written down and signed
by?
Doctor said, I'm perfect.
What can I say?
Speaker 3 (03:44):
But before this, before this pot, I was just, I
was on a call to a Tate.
I live in bark on it to a tailorin Bristol about having some
jeans made.
And it sounds ridiculous, but Imean, I can't buy a pair of
jeans.
I spend loads of money on a pairof diesels or replays or
whatever.
I have to have them tailored.
Cause my, you know, from mywaist to my thigh or my calf
size, I should be six foot 12.
(04:05):
And it's like, in the end, he'slike, let me make you some, some
I'm talking about now.
I'm not a rich man.
I'm talking about spending 250quid on a pair of jeans, which
would be the only jeans that fitme in my life.
So it was like, it's insane.
So anyway, this is not what thispodcast is,
Speaker 1 (04:20):
But hilariously I'd love it.
How this conversation has got somuch legs there.
I say no party.
Um, but yeah, don't do you knowwhat I feel?
You're paid though, going tohave to bespoke Jayden's it's
just like the workwear that'sleft field, but, but yeah, no,
but you know what?
Just to get back on track.
I mean, David, I feel your painwith all of this, but also you
(04:40):
are, you know, congratulations,you're expecting, you're
expecting a baby.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
I am, I'm pregnant, you're pregnant.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
That's why the jeans won't fit.
You know?
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Yeah.
My girlfriend, I were expectinga baby and I am 41 with two
children from my former Matt, myfirst marriage, I am on
extremely good terms with my exwife, um, where we're wearing
great terms.
That's worked really, reallywell.
And um, we both met new peoplerelatively quickly and she won't
(05:17):
have any more children.
I said, I, I just wasn't keen.
Um, and I just didn't fancy itto be honest, uh, partly
laziness.
I thought it's too hard.
I don't want to do it again.
I've done it.
And also partly because I didn'tknow.
Um, I just, I don't see how Ican love another child as much
(05:37):
as I love my two girls.
I just don't see how that'spossible.
And I didn't.
And then I kind of had a momenta year or so ago, and I just
said, I just, I would love tohave a baby with you.
What do you reckon?
And she said, oh my God, I'vebeen waiting a few to ask type
stuff.
And um, you know, cause shedidn't want to pressure into it
because I had to and all thatkind of stuff.
(05:59):
And um, it's, it's wonderful.
So yeah, we were expecting alittle girl in September and the
children are doing lists ofnames every day, every night
they are obsessed.
Um, last night I put them to bedabout quarter past nine and a
quarter past 10.
I snuck upstairs.
Cause I heard that it gets stilltalking and they were just
(06:19):
talking about baby staff andwho's going to do what nights
and who's going to get up andhelp me in help mommy and daddy
and all that sort of stuff andthe babies.
And who's going to do shifts andwhat names and
Speaker 1 (06:31):
Must've been such a sense of relief that the girls
have taken.
It
Speaker 3 (06:36):
Are those, the, the reveal, like, I mean we, my
brother, my little brother hasdown syndrome, cerebral palsy
and he has something called aRobinson translocation, which
is, I won't bore you, but I'm acarrier of that.
Um, whatever you call it, thosegenetics.
So I can I pass that on to, Ihave, there's a strong, there's
a high possibility of me or apossibility of me having a
(06:57):
child.
Like my brother now we adore mybrother, but being completely
Frank, my mum, my brothers livewith my dad.
He's six.
Now he's lived with my parentsevery day of his life.
They adore him.
He's the center of our family.
He's an absolute legend.
We just worship him and alwayshave.
And we always felt really luckyto have him and my mom's life
was, she knew it ended 36 yearsago and she has been effectively
(07:20):
a full-time carer for nearlyfour decades.
And it's incredibly difficult,but she has never, ever, ever
complained.
They just adore him.
And he has the most amazinglife.
But that means that we have asit, we have loads of checks and
loads of scans and horriblelittle procedures and invasive
procedures to make sure that ourbaby isn't like my brother and
(07:40):
with the greatest respect andlove to him.
And, um, he doesn't listen topodcast.
Don't worry.
He doesn't have to say anything.
Um, but, um, we, we didn't findout that about 20 weeks or 18
weeks or something that we weregenetically all clear.
So the kids kind of knew really.
And they were badgering thewhole time and, um, Indian, we
told them and I filmed it causeit's kind of what you do these
(08:03):
days.
I didn't put it on Instagram oranything, but just for
posterity.
And they both just burst intotears, grabbed hold of my
girlfriend and me, and just sortof crying with happiness and
just over the moon.
And when you are a parent, um,who has evolved relatively
recently and then you have a newpartner and you're having
(08:24):
another baby is incrediblyimportant.
Well, if they aren't keen andthey feel marginalized,
ostracized, they feel secondbest.
Um, whatever they feel inferiorthat is, that would crush me.
It would absolutely crush me.
So I have been very, very keento make it their baby is as well
(08:49):
as ours.
And they are just over the moon.
And luckily my ex-wife is agreat person.
She's not baby.
So she doesn't do what a lot ofpeople do, men and women doing
these situations, which is justsay nasty things about their ex
for the sake of it and alienatethe children.
She is absolutely full on keenfor the girls to love this baby.
(09:10):
This is their sister.
She absolutely wants them tolove my girlfriend.
I want them to love herboyfriend because they live with
them half the time.
You know?
So it's kind of the wholedynamic is sort of coming
together quite well becausethere it's not just two people
fall in love and have a baby.
There's all this stuff that wentbefore for me.
And that makes it, you know,that gives you a huge amount
(09:32):
more to think about actually.
Um, but luckily my children justadore by girlfriend and she
adores them.
She really loves them.
And um, it's, you know, it's sofar so good.
Put it that way.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
It's amazing.
Cause I have to say, I mean, Ispeak to a lot of people on the
podcast and actually a lot ofthe time I've learned a huge
amount from various differentconversations, but actually we
recently just to end on seasonone, we had a doctor, a child
psychologist in, and it'sinteresting about how obviously,
I mean, it sounds obvious, butin the same vein, when you hear
it said like this, that childrenare a reflection of their
(10:08):
environments.
So do you know if you, like yousaid, it's incredibly fortunate
that you and your ex partnerhave such a good, solid
friendship, you know, and thatyou do still really respect each
other and you wish the best foreach other, you know, moving
forward because obviously youcould see that being reflected
in your two girls, you know,they would have learned that off
you guys, so well done David andyour ex part.
(10:31):
And I know, but you know, theywould only have known that from
like living from the example ofYouTube.
So that's wonderful.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
You can virtually signal you like, and you can say
the right stuff or you like, andthen, uh, you know, these days
with social media being sorampant and it's, I think it's a
largely synthetic age that we'reliving in.
There's so much balls goingaround the place.
There's kind of like people,virtue signaling and people
being incredibly emotional andpassionate about things.
They're not actually thinkingabout as they close their eyes
(11:00):
at night.
They just want people to thinkthey're heavily invested in
great causes and great things.
I think it dilutes the peoplewho actually do do the good
stuff actually, but that's aseparate subject, but as it
happens, my dad's a side childpsychologist.
My sister is a childpsychologist.
Um, while they're obviouslythey're wonderful people and
they're very bright and veryuseful to talk to in these
(11:21):
situations.
I think a lot of it actually hasbeen.
Um, and it's a sound reallyarrogant when I say it it's
actually been me.
That's driven it.
My, my ex-wife as well.
But in terms of my behavior, ithasn't been, I haven't been
following instructions from mypsychologist father.
Um, it's me, who's done it.
(11:41):
And I've made it that way.
As long as my ex-wife and wehave made it work like that.
And it's not because I'm theworld's best person.
So I want to qualify thatarrogance.
It's not that it's because I buythe most terrifying thing that's
ever happened in my life was thethought that I was going to ruin
my daughters lives by divorcingfrom their money.
(12:02):
And that is what caused me to beincredibly ill.
A few years ago.
It made me really ill.
It gave me, I mean, I, I, youknow, I look back and I realize
I was having panic attacks.
I was all over the place.
I lost four stone in weight inabout four months or five
months.
I didn't eat for days at a time.
Um, really solely based around,I knew, I knew to a point I'm
(12:26):
being glib now on you to a pointthat my ex wife would be
absolutely fine.
I think, you know, there, therewas a level of apathy there
really not, no anger, nohostility, but I knew, I
thought, am I ruining mychildren's lives?
This is their blueprint forrelationships that I'm creating.
And I think a lot of my greatbehavior and it hasn't all been
great, but a lot of it has beendriven by a fear of ruining
(12:48):
their futures actually.
So I probably thought about itmore than I needed to.
Um, but actually I thought whereis, where is the win in being
honorable to their mummy?
Where's the win in that?
You know, it makes me feelrubbish, hurtful, rubbish, the
kids see it.
Um, so they just, we haven't,we've just been lovely to each
(13:09):
other and accommodating and, um,we've taken care of each other
really.
So in a difficult time, so ourkids have seen that and
hopefully, you know, um, my, mydivorce and my ex-wife doesn't
ruin their romantic futures.
That's, that's what I thinkabout really,
Speaker 1 (13:28):
Because you're kind of building a new, well, it it's
a lot, but a lot of people callsort of blended families is kind
of like a new term, um, whereyou can, you know, even some
celebrities they're seen sort of, uh, going on holidays with
each other, with their newpartners, it's just an extended
family kind of, uh, connectionreally.
Um, and I think that's a lovelything as you're kind of already
(13:49):
thinking that way.
Um, do you think your sort ofpotentially, like, you've sort
of mentioned it earlier, butmaybe some part of the
apprehension of having being anew dad again, was sort of
inherently built on this basisof like not wanting to kind of
like ruin, that's a really,that's a really weird word
choice on my behalf, but likeyou said, ruin your kind of ch
(14:10):
children's futures.
Um, you know, maybe it was, youknow, cause you don't want to do
anything against them, like sortof as a father trying to be
selfless.
Is that kind of, part of theapprehension of being a new dad?
Speaker 3 (14:22):
Yeah.
I think one of the fears aroundhaving, um, and just being
completely honest, I, one of thefear, the main fears around
having a baby is how hard it is.
And, um, another fear is that itmarginalizes my daughters even
for a millisecond in the nextdecade, you know, we'd be a
millisecond too many, and thatwould be agony.
I'm a pretty relaxed blokereally, but that would be
(14:43):
agonizing to me.
And I think I would find thatvery, very difficult if I
thought I was doing that.
So I've had long conversationswith my girlfriend and I said,
look, there are going to betimes when there is a baby
screaming in the house and it'sa bit crap and my girls are here
and they're not enjoying beinghere and I desperately want them
to enjoy being at daddy's, youknow, and, and you know, I, I
(15:08):
don't want them to see it asactually a bit of a pain in the
backside being at daddy's andthey don't get any attention
because of this baby.
And there might be times when Ijust have to leave you for an
hour with a crying baby and justtake the girls out to, to get a
sandwich or go for a walk ortake the dog out or something
and just be with them so thatthey are not all consumed by the
(15:29):
hard bits of the baby.
Um, because I don't want themto, I don't want them to
privately say to mommy, or wedon't want to go to daddy's or
they do all, it was just babycrying all the time and we never
get to do anything.
And we can't hear the tele causethe baby's crying, you know,
they're only little, so theydon't know that that's
unreasonable.
Um, so my, you know, I I've sortof sought clearance for my
(15:51):
girlfriend to just occasionallyI've said I will make up the
time.
I promise I'm not gonna lead youin the lurch and use that as an
excuse for, there might be timeswhen I just need to take care of
them and disappear and it willjust be for half an hour or an
hour.
Um, you know, so it's somethingI think about a lot, probably
too much because when you getthere, you're just in the
trenches, aren't you for thefirst six months.
(16:12):
So it's kind of, you just find away to it also, you know, my
girls are with me probably aboutthree days a week, something
like that.
And when my ex-wife and I don'thave a custody agreement in our
divorce, we just very, we justsaw each other out and help each
other out.
And when, whenever it works andit works better that way, but
equally I've got probably, youknow, four nights a week without
(16:33):
the kids here, um, with the babyso that it's not like I've got
all, all three to deal with plusan exhausted girlfriend all the
time.
So actually I think there willbe a lot of time when it's just
the three of us, which will makethings easier
Speaker 1 (16:46):
Because it's been, I mean, your, your youngest is
about nine years old.
Yeah.
Nine.
I mean the last time you were inthis place nine years ago, um,
you know, maybe things, you know, things have changed.
I mean, you're retired now nineyears ago.
What, what, what did life looklike for you?
Were you kind of obviously verybusy with your career or, you
(17:08):
know, is it sort of slightlydifferent for you this time
round?
Speaker 3 (17:12):
Yeah, I, I want it to be different.
Um, well first baby, I, for ourfirst baby, who's 11 now I was a
professional rugby player and Iwasn't only a pro I was, uh, I
was an, a sort of a senior proby that.
I mean, I was getting on a bitand I was struggling to keep up.
My body was struggling to keepup.
I was worried whether I wasgoing to get another contract
and because I kept gettinginjured and kept getting hurt
(17:34):
and you know, it, it, my ex wifeactually said, you know, you can
be noble if you want and do thatstuff, but what is the point I'm
not going to work, I've stoppedworking.
So what is the point in both ofus being written off every day?
So she solely breastfed for sixmonths with the first one.
And I think maybe even longerwith the second one.
(17:56):
So every feed was her and shesaid, I don't want to do
formula.
I want to breastfeed.
She, she liked that.
So it was actually, what's thepoint that you're getting up in
the night.
If she wants to feed, what areyou going to do?
Um, and I've actually got afriend who, uh, believe it or
not.
He gets up with his wife whenshe breastfeeds, he gets up with
(18:17):
her and sits with her everynight and she doesn't need him
to, but he thinks he's doing theright thing and sharing the
load.
All that means is he can't doanything.
He's just sitting there with hishand on her leg or holding her
hand while she's breastfeedingtwo or three times a night,
you're doing it for months andthey're just broken every day,
both of them.
So she wants to have a napduring the day.
And he can't, he's, he's alreadyasleep cause he'd been up all
night.
It's ridiculous.
(18:38):
So it was, we had an agreementsuggested by, by my ex-wife, you
know, you don't do the nights,don't do the nights because
there's not all do those.
You've got a job to maintain.
You're sort of paying themortgage as it were.
But I think I leveraged that toomuch.
And I think I used that as anexcuse to do too little
actually.
And I regret that I do regretthat.
And I think here I'm staring at,you know, I'm not the perfect
(19:02):
daddy, but I'm really good one.
And I, my favorite thing in mylife was being a daddy, but I
actually think it took me acouple of years to get back to
that point.
And I think the reason it tookme a couple of years is because
I didn't invest enough in it atthe start.
I thought, well, I'm a, I'm apro athlete.
I need my rest.
I need to do what I need to do.
I've been conditioned to beselfish.
So it's all, all right,everything I want to do is all
right.
And um, I regret that and myex-wife took, you know, did more
(19:29):
than I think her fair share of,you know, she kind of didn't do
everything she would say shedid, but of course she did it.
I mean, I was, I was in thebuilding, but it's it, she did
so much more than me in thoseearly years.
And um, I really regret that.
So I want to do more of thistime and I want to help out my
girlfriend because it's theright thing to do.
(19:49):
And, um, and I know that ithelps her and it helps the baby
and it helps me and it helps thebond and all that stuff.
But I think if you don't peoplesay, they've got, everyone loves
to say, if you've got anyregrets in life.
Nah, no regrets.
You know, I never no regretslifestyle, but nice one, is
there anything you'd dodifferently if you did it again?
Yeah.
Well that qualifies as a regretfor me.
You have to cry yourself tosleep about it.
(20:11):
But for me, I regret I would doit differently and I intend to
do it differently this timearound.
So for me, that qualifies as alife regret actually.
And you know, I'd acknowledgethat to my ex-wife a few times
and it's all fine and everythingwill everyone's happy, but I
intend to be more involved, putit that way.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Yeah.
Cause I think it's actuallyquite an advantage point that,
you know, cause also you likeDavid nine years ago is going to
be just generally a differentman now.
And that's because of all thatexperience that you've had, that
you can have that sort ofretrospection and go, okay, if I
was going to give myself thisadvice or even if you were going
to give a friend some advice,it's just like, yeah, like you
say, just be a little bit morepresent at the start, you know?
(20:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
And do you know this, this is about, this is about
babies and parenthood and stuff.
There's pot.
I know that.
And I'm um, I read all theauditions book a while ago, a
ghost on our.
He loved it, absolutely lovedit.
One of my favorite books ever.
And she talks about somethingcalled acute mention itis, which
is when someone's got somethinggoing on in their life and it's
all they can talk about and it'sunbelievably annoying.
(21:13):
So I think I've got divorced,acute mentioned itis, but it
just because it ties in soclosely with the parenthood
thing, for me, it's, it's a bigpart of it.
Um, I kind of almost keep it up,but I do think that, you know,
I've been through some majorthings in my life like everyone
has.
Um, I think divorce has taughtme more about being a good
person than anything else in mylife.
(21:35):
Um, as weirdly being very, very,very difficult, even though it
was amicable pretty much thewhole way through, um, and still
is, is taught me so much ifyou're willing to be
introspective and you're willingto, you know, be aggressively
balanced about things and forceyourself to see things from
someone else's point of viewwhen situations like this are
(21:56):
hard, I think you can learn somuch.
I, I seal a sore every day forabout two years, how it could go
pear shaped and how I couldreact to something or she could
react to something.
And if you just it's made mesuch a better dad, like
infinitely better at being a dadbeing divorced and he shouldn't
have to come to that.
That's my point.
(22:18):
You know, it should come beforeyou get to that point.
It didn't last time, but it willthis time.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
Do you think your, your career choice is being a
sportsman?
Cause you're not the firstperson I have to say that I've
spoken to, that have dedicatedtheir lives to sport and the
inherent selfishness that youhave to take.
You know, like the, the hoursyou have to put in, the focus
you have to give, um, obviouslycomes with a huge sacrifice, you
know, that you have to kind oflike miss out on certain things
(22:44):
and you know, really focused onthat.
Do you think almost your jobchoice inherently maybe gave you
one focus and now obviously, youknow, you're a tired and with
the divorce, it's kind ofchanged your mindset from how it
was.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
Do you know?
Uh, yes and no.
I think physically you have tobe selfish as an athlete.
You have to take care of yourbody.
I mean, I wasn't the mostprofessional professional to be
honest with you, but you have totake care of it.
So you miss weddings, you missparties, you miss lash ups, you
miss stag dues, you know, but myjob now is commentating on
sport.
And so, um, what I think thebiggest issue is that my
(23:20):
weekends, I work at weekends.
So, you know, you've got in wheneveryone else is available, I'm
gone again.
And that's been the way since Iwas 18.
It's always been that way sinceI played.
And now I'm still going tomatches every weekend, right?
Except last weekend, it wasFriday, Saturday, Sunday.
Whereas when I was playing, itwas only Saturday, only one of
those days.
So in a sense, it's, it can beharder now.
(23:42):
I think I'm, uh, I can, youknow, I can go for dinner and
have a few beers and I can stayup like, and get up through the
night and do all that stuff nowwithout, you know, fatigue being
an injury risk.
But I still, my career justhappens in my, you know, my
ex-wife didn't mind really thatI just wasn't there that much,
uh, weekends, but I look backand think that's pretty tough
(24:03):
for her.
And you know, my girlfriend nowis like, you know, we're going
to have a baby and you're goingto be gone every weekend when I
want to relax and socialize withyou.
And I said, correct.
That is, and it wasn't idealwith their ma it was like, that
is what I do.
That's who I am.
You know, what I do is atweekends and equally, I'm here
loads during the week.
And if you're not at work, whichyou won't be for awhile, I'll be
(24:26):
with you five days a week andoften six days a week, which is
a lot more than other parents,frankly, other fathers Franklin.
So my work is very flexible.
I'll be, I'll spend a heck of ahuge amount of time at home
compared to my mates that workfor insurance companies and
banks and all that.
Um, but you know, let's, let'sbook a weekend away.
Well, I'm afraid we can't.
So we're trying to book a summerholiday at the moment.
(24:47):
And I'm, I said, I'm afraidthere isn't any time.
So there isn't one.
So we want to, she wants to minibreak.
I said, sorry, there is not aweekend.
Here's my diary find a weekendbetween now and September when
we can go there.
Isn't one.
There is not one.
So that's that.
And what do you do about it?
I mean, it's, this is what I do.
I'm not, I'm 41.
(25:08):
I'm not just going to startcommuting at 4, 5 30 on the five
30 train to London and begin acareer in finance.
My career is in sport.
It gives me a great lifestyle,but there are drawbacks, you
know?
So it, oddly I'm kind ofinvoluntarily selfish now.
So it's still happening, which Ifeel guilty about.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Do you know, it's, it's the nature of the kind of
the business isn't there, butlike you say, you actually have
possibly more available daysnow, but they're just not
necessarily
Speaker 3 (25:38):
90% of 90% of men in the UK.
So it's almost in a sense it'slike what you're moaning about,
but it's like, well, wheneverour friends get together, I'm
going on my own.
I said, yeah, that that is true.
And that's rubbish, but it'swhat I do.
It's who I am.
I love my job.
And it's not like, do you wantthe big house or mill love?
(26:02):
It's nothing to do with that.
It's it's like, this is, sheloves how much I love my job.
She's she's, you know, she is inlove with my passion for my job.
She adores it equally.
There are drawbacks, that's all.
And everyone has those, but I'mnot.
But, um, you know, I've got lotsof mates who work and work in
the city and they don't seetheir children until Saturday.
(26:22):
I mean, they genuinely do notsee their children until
Saturday.
And when they're young.
So if the kids are going to bedbefore 7, 7 30 at night, but one
day I won't name him.
Cause he I've always named itbefore it, he didn't like it.
But he said, he basically didn'tsee his children Monday to
Friday until they were three orfour years old.
I mean, never, never saw themduring the week.
Never went to their school,never worked in a big bank.
(26:44):
No days off, never went to theirschool, you know?
So it could be worse.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
That's a lot of baths .
I mean, that's, that's a knownthing for, I think for a lot of
people, um, a lot of peoplelistening as well, um, that will
know the, kind of the realitiesof, you know, bringing up
children today and, um, keepingyour heads above water,
regardless of what you do withhow you do it.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
I made my kids breakfast this morning, got the
lazy that gets out of bed, madethem breakfast for some to wash
force one, to wash their hairbecause it looked like it had
been dipped in ship, fat cleaned, all that cleaned the nine and
all their uniform didn't.
So I didn't own it wash to dryto their uniform.
Gone dressed, gone to school,made a lot, you know, nobody
breakfast and all that.
And I've been to the gym, goesto the shops to do a bit of
(27:31):
laundry, which I don't do enoughof apparently.
And all that stuff is happeningall day today.
And I'll pick one of them upbefore.
One of them are five, I've gothot dogs lined up for tonight.
I've got a movie lined up.
Um, you know, and I've got,we've got a baby scan in the
morning at eight, which means Idropped the kids off early at my
ex-wife's house already ready togo.
They can walk to school, youknow?
(27:51):
So this is just a standardweekly program.
You know, that I'm, I'm doingthe same, I'm flying around
trying to get everything done.
And, but my job has me smilingon telly.
So it just looks gravy and whata life, but actually the days
I'm at home, I'm that just like,mommy's a mom, it's exactly the
same.
You know, I'm sort of doing allthat business and realizing that
(28:13):
my girlfriend's coming home fromwork tonight and I haven't done
any of the washing up from lastnight then.
So I'm just looking across thekitchen now.
So She'll judge me on that.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
I have to say, cause by at my house was actually
feedlots ad.
He used to love it when I usedto come back from the office.
Cause he knew he had a certaintime to get certain things done
by, and now I'm at home.
It's like, oh God, you could seethe truth.
I do X, Y, and Z during thistime and all this kind of stuff.
But I'm like digging a pigtoday.
(28:47):
But um, I mean, how have yourfriends take it?
So yeah.
You know, any friends that haverecently had, you know,
kneeboards and stuff, if you'vegone to them for some advice,
because it's been nine years,but you know, it's not, not a
huge amount has changed, butlike you say, like social media
is a lot more prevalent now andstuff like that.
I mean any kind of great pearlsof advice you've got from some
of your mates, staff become newparents recently.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
There's one from a friend of mine, lovely bloke,
amazing dad, believe it or not.
When I tell you this, he's got asimilar gap and he's got a two
year old now and he said, mate,don't do it.
Don't do.
It was when I said we might havea baby, do you have a baby?
Might do any.
And he said, don't do it mate.
He said, honestly, I love him somuch, but I absolutely hate my
(29:30):
life.
I have no time.
He's always ill.
I hate my life.
The weekends are the worst daysof all.
When they're meant to be thebest.
I hate my life.
It's awful.
I hate my life.
Don't do it.
I said, by the way, uh, this,the same phone call by the way
we're expecting.
And he just burst intohysterical.
Laughter.
He's like, oh my God.
Oh my God, you idiot.
(29:50):
You don't do it.
He was genuine.
Don't do it.
I love him.
I love him.
Please don't do it for me.
Don't do this.
So I rang another mate afterthat to tell him, and he was
just like over the moon and allthese flowers arrived and he's,
I'm so pleased.
I'm so pleased.
We've got a big gap betweenthree and four and it's the best
thing we ever did or I'm sohappy for you.
(30:11):
The girls are going to love it.
So contrasting reactions.
But it, that way,
Speaker 1 (30:15):
I mean, I mean hats off to the Fred that, or they go
to him for some like, well I wasgoing to say honest advice, but
I mean, Lord, perhaps that'squite the, uh, the feedback.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
Yeah.
I mean, he's maintaining themequally.
He is the most, I won't say hisname.
He is the most amazing dad likefull on hands-on does the lot,
all the time.
He's amazing.
But he's just like, he is happyto be easy, you know, he hates
having to be so selfless, but hedoes it with no visible
resentment.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Oh, I mean, so I can't believe actually we've got
a Z was going to kick us out inabout five minutes.
So just to kind of know, I askedyou, I honestly, this is, it's
been wonderful having a chatwith you about it actually.
Cause it's, it's such a kind of,um, I don't know.
I don't think there's a lot outthere when it talks to you about
new families from a D you know,but from, you know, from a
(31:13):
divorce and it also in a dad'sperspective, I don't think
sometimes these things getspoken about enough.
Even with, like you say with youmay, you know, you gotta be a
bit, whatever ever advice.
I think our listeners will get alot out of this just to kind of
hear a really honest other sideof you.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
Yeah.
I was chatting with a mate thismorning.
Who's having his third baby soonas well.
Very, very similar gaps and allthat.
And um, he's, he's in the armedforces and they've got a
brilliant system where you cantake up to six months paternity
leave and you start to pay itback at the end kind of thing.
But so you can't take theMickey, but you can have it.
(31:51):
I've got another mate who worksfor Diageo, the big drinks for
him.
And he gets six months paternityand all that stuff.
And my job is I'm freelance.
There's no paternity here.
Like just like there was nogrants or benefits or anything
during COVID it just deleted meand you get what you get and
that's fine, but it's it's um, Ithink rightly the vast majority
(32:12):
of concern is directed towardsnew mums.
Rightly however, I think that Idon't think men are ignored, but
I think more and more men'svoices are being heard.
And it's, it's a, it's achallenging time for daddies as
well.
You know, it's also verydifficult for us, but as soon as
you say that, it's almost like,you know, we're seeking sympathy
(32:34):
and I don't think we are, I'mnot, I'm not seeking any
sympathy at all.
Um, in fact, I want to do,because I felt like I didn't
deserve any sympathy first timearound, but I think I'm sort of
preparing for it to bewonderful, but difficult
actually in difficult for a,quite a long period because I'm
frankly not used to being thatselfless.
And, um, what I've needed to dois generally taken priority.
(32:57):
Not because I'm an alpha,horrible gear, but it's like if
I'm commentating on a rugbygame, it kicks off at three
o'clock on a Saturday.
I can't push that back for anhour.
Now I've got to be there.
So it's live telly that that ishappening.
Whereas you can put emails off,you can put the odd zoom call
off.
You can't put off a kickoff onlive telly.
So where I have to be is where Ihave to be.
Um, so there's, there's someadjustments coming, but I'm, I'm
(33:19):
actually really looking forwardto it.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Fantastic.
And David, thank you so much forcoming on.
I've so enjoyed chatting andlistening to you, uh, this
afternoon.
Uh, but just to end.
And so just to give a heads up,we've got three minutes.
Um, but what are you mostlooking forward to, uh, come
September when your daughterturns out?
Speaker 3 (33:39):
Uh, I'm actually most looking forward to my daughters,
my existing daughters, uh,getting to know their and
showing love to their new littlesister.
That's that's the mostimportant.
That's the biggest thing for meto be honest, I also, my
girlfriend was just born to be amom.
She was just incredibly maternalchildren love her.
She loves children.
I can't wait to see her movefrom the exhaustive phase to the
(34:03):
sort of glowing phase where youcan really appreciate what
you've got.
And I can't wait for that.
Um, just watching her beam causeI know she would just love it.
She's obsessed with babies andchildren.
So it's just perfect for her.
Um, I'm looking forward toactually the stage when they
start giving something back,just being completely honest.
Um, and I'll, I'll do all thelovely stuff before that, but
(34:25):
when you start getting smilesand a bit of movement and a tiny
little bits of independence ofmovement and thought that a bit.
So, um, I'm looking forward tothe most
Speaker 1 (34:34):
Fantastic, well all the best and we can't wait to
see the little lady when shearrives in September.
Wonderful.
Well thank you so much, David,and have a lovely day running
around after your girls, by thesound of it, getting a little
bit of washing and yeah, takecare and thanks so much.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
Thank you very much
Speaker 1 (34:58):
To find out more information about the topics
covered in today's podcast hitsthe eye-candy blog page on
www.eyecandyworld.com forwardslash blog.
You can also catch up on seasonone, featuring thought provoking
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(35:19):
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I candy is a proud supporter ofgreat Ormond street children's
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(35:42):
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If you'd like to make adonation, please head to
discover DOT's eye candy,world.com forward slash gosh.
Welcome to the eye-candy DUI podcast with me,
Naomi Williams, a 30 somethingparents of none baffled by how
much it's undiscussed in theworld of pregnancy and
parenthood.
I'll be asking the questionsbecause you want the answers to
on this podcast, which isbrought to you.
I can be world makers ofbeautifully British Bush stares
for parents across the globe.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
[inaudible],
Speaker 1 (00:33):
We're delighted to be joined on the eye-candy GA
podcast by sports pundit andformer rugby union player.
David Flatman after representingEngland eight times and playing
club rugby for Saracens and bath.
David is now a from the sport,but there is certainly no time
to put his feet up.
David, his dad to an 11 year oldand a nine year old and has a
baby on the way.
(00:54):
So we caught up with him to chatabout the new chapter ahead.
Thank you so much for comingonto the eye candy duo podcast.
David, how you doing?
Speaker 3 (01:06):
I'm very well, thank you.
It's a pleasure to be here.
I'm I'm just enjoying a coffee,um, a lunchtime coffee.
It's lunchtime where I am now inmy time zone.
And it's the first fuel invertedcommas I've taken today because,
um, I am, as my mum used to say,I'm on a diet again, but I'm not
(01:26):
really, I'm just trying to eatless food because my jeans don't
fit.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
You know, I, I been exactly the same place as you
with eight, don't get me wrong.
I am so excited with the easingof lockdown and all the rest of
it, but I do get this kind ofpit of the stomach panic.
Every time we get closer andcloser to being sort of out in
the big wide world, because I'mlike, when is this diet actually
going to happen?
Because I know from next weeksite.
(01:51):
Right?
Okay.
So we've now got X amount oftime.
Um, and the diet gets more andmore extreme.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
I mean, you know, now it's things are getting sociable
now.
So yeah, I dunno.
I dunno how I'm going tobasically, I mean, our dilemmas
might be a slightly differentI'm thinking, how do I stay
below 20 stone in 2021?
That's what I'm doing.
That's my aim.
I'm naturally quite a big chap.
Um, so I holler if I, if I, youknow, if I don't eat, I'm about
(02:22):
19 stone, if I do a I'm about21.
So I need to just, I, uh, youknow, from a rugby background,
I've spent all of my adult, mostof my adult life and not my
teenage years trying to put onas much mass as possible.
And the truth is I basicallycan't get rid of it.
So I just want my jeans.
I don't want to have to undo myjeans when I'm driving down the
(02:44):
motorway.
So bit
Speaker 1 (02:46):
No, Juno, I liked that as a humble goal.
That's all we want.
Yeah.
I have to say, I do quite likeyou're keeping under 20 stones
flip it, make the diet with aslightly different dynamic
Speaker 3 (03:00):
20 in 20, 22.
I'll try and stay below 21.
So I'm always one year behind.
I feel like I'm in front.
Um, I mean, I, I, sometimes I,you know, I did go to the
doctors a couple of years agojust for something else.
And I said, well, while I'mhere, can I have a check and
sort of mot?
And he said, you can't havethose, wait, you can't just have
an mot on the NHS.
They cost money.
And I said, what if I told you Iwas having dizzy spells or
(03:21):
whatever?
He said, here we go, right.
Run a few tests.
And he said, everything's fine.
Your cholesterol is fine.
I said, at this point, I said,I'm 20 stone eight and I'm six
foot tall.
He said, yeah, you're absolutelyfine.
This is the size you meant tobe.
Oh God, really?
Speaker 1 (03:35):
But at the same breath, can I get that?
Like on my answer phone, can Iget that written down and signed
by?
Doctor said, I'm perfect.
What can I say?
Speaker 3 (03:44):
But before this, before this pot, I was just, I
was on a call to a Tate.
I live in bark on it to a tailorin Bristol about having some
jeans made.
And it sounds ridiculous, but Imean, I can't buy a pair of
jeans.
I spend loads of money on a pairof diesels or replays or
whatever.
I have to have them tailored.
Cause my, you know, from mywaist to my thigh or my calf
size, I should be six foot 12.
(04:05):
And it's like, in the end, he'slike, let me make you some, some
I'm talking about now.
I'm not a rich man.
I'm talking about spending 250quid on a pair of jeans, which
would be the only jeans that fitme in my life.
So it was like, it's insane.
So anyway, this is not what thispodcast is,
Speaker 1 (04:20):
But hilariously I'd love it.
How this conversation has got somuch legs there.
I say no party.
Um, but yeah, don't do you knowwhat I feel?
You're paid though, going tohave to bespoke Jayden's it's
just like the workwear that'sleft field, but, but yeah, no,
but you know what?
Just to get back on track.
I mean, David, I feel your painwith all of this, but also you
(04:40):
are, you know, congratulations,you're expecting, you're
expecting a baby.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
I am, I'm pregnant, you're pregnant.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
That's why the jeans won't fit.
You know?
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Yeah.
My girlfriend, I were expectinga baby and I am 41 with two
children from my former Matt, myfirst marriage, I am on
extremely good terms with my exwife, um, where we're wearing
great terms.
That's worked really, reallywell.
And um, we both met new peoplerelatively quickly and she won't
(05:17):
have any more children.
I said, I, I just wasn't keen.
Um, and I just didn't fancy itto be honest, uh, partly
laziness.
I thought it's too hard.
I don't want to do it again.
I've done it.
And also partly because I didn'tknow.
Um, I just, I don't see how Ican love another child as much
(05:37):
as I love my two girls.
I just don't see how that'spossible.
And I didn't.
And then I kind of had a momenta year or so ago, and I just
said, I just, I would love tohave a baby with you.
What do you reckon?
And she said, oh my God, I'vebeen waiting a few to ask type
stuff.
And um, you know, cause shedidn't want to pressure into it
because I had to and all thatkind of stuff.
(05:59):
And um, it's, it's wonderful.
So yeah, we were expecting alittle girl in September and the
children are doing lists ofnames every day, every night
they are obsessed.
Um, last night I put them to bedabout quarter past nine and a
quarter past 10.
I snuck upstairs.
Cause I heard that it gets stilltalking and they were just
(06:19):
talking about baby staff andwho's going to do what nights
and who's going to get up andhelp me in help mommy and daddy
and all that sort of stuff andthe babies.
And who's going to do shifts andwhat names and
Speaker 1 (06:31):
Must've been such a sense of relief that the girls
have taken.
It
Speaker 3 (06:36):
Are those, the, the reveal, like, I mean we, my
brother, my little brother hasdown syndrome, cerebral palsy
and he has something called aRobinson translocation, which
is, I won't bore you, but I'm acarrier of that.
Um, whatever you call it, thosegenetics.
So I can I pass that on to, Ihave, there's a strong, there's
a high possibility of me or apossibility of me having a
(06:57):
child.
Like my brother now we adore mybrother, but being completely
Frank, my mum, my brothers livewith my dad.
He's six.
Now he's lived with my parentsevery day of his life.
They adore him.
He's the center of our family.
He's an absolute legend.
We just worship him and alwayshave.
And we always felt really luckyto have him and my mom's life
was, she knew it ended 36 yearsago and she has been effectively
(07:20):
a full-time carer for nearlyfour decades.
And it's incredibly difficult,but she has never, ever, ever
complained.
They just adore him.
And he has the most amazinglife.
But that means that we have asit, we have loads of checks and
loads of scans and horriblelittle procedures and invasive
procedures to make sure that ourbaby isn't like my brother and
(07:40):
with the greatest respect andlove to him.
And, um, he doesn't listen topodcast.
Don't worry.
He doesn't have to say anything.
Um, but, um, we, we didn't findout that about 20 weeks or 18
weeks or something that we weregenetically all clear.
So the kids kind of knew really.
And they were badgering thewhole time and, um, Indian, we
told them and I filmed it causeit's kind of what you do these
(08:03):
days.
I didn't put it on Instagram oranything, but just for
posterity.
And they both just burst intotears, grabbed hold of my
girlfriend and me, and just sortof crying with happiness and
just over the moon.
And when you are a parent, um,who has evolved relatively
recently and then you have a newpartner and you're having
(08:24):
another baby is incrediblyimportant.
Well, if they aren't keen andthey feel marginalized,
ostracized, they feel secondbest.
Um, whatever they feel inferiorthat is, that would crush me.
It would absolutely crush me.
So I have been very, very keento make it their baby is as well
(08:49):
as ours.
And they are just over the moon.
And luckily my ex-wife is agreat person.
She's not baby.
So she doesn't do what a lot ofpeople do, men and women doing
these situations, which is justsay nasty things about their ex
for the sake of it and alienatethe children.
She is absolutely full on keenfor the girls to love this baby.
(09:10):
This is their sister.
She absolutely wants them tolove my girlfriend.
I want them to love herboyfriend because they live with
them half the time.
You know?
So it's kind of the wholedynamic is sort of coming
together quite well becausethere it's not just two people
fall in love and have a baby.
There's all this stuff that wentbefore for me.
And that makes it, you know,that gives you a huge amount
(09:32):
more to think about actually.
Um, but luckily my children justadore by girlfriend and she
adores them.
She really loves them.
And um, it's, you know, it's sofar so good.
Put it that way.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
It's amazing.
Cause I have to say, I mean, Ispeak to a lot of people on the
podcast and actually a lot ofthe time I've learned a huge
amount from various differentconversations, but actually we
recently just to end on seasonone, we had a doctor, a child
psychologist in, and it'sinteresting about how obviously,
I mean, it sounds obvious, butin the same vein, when you hear
it said like this, that childrenare a reflection of their
(10:08):
environments.
So do you know if you, like yousaid, it's incredibly fortunate
that you and your ex partnerhave such a good, solid
friendship, you know, and thatyou do still really respect each
other and you wish the best foreach other, you know, moving
forward because obviously youcould see that being reflected
in your two girls, you know,they would have learned that off
you guys, so well done David andyour ex part.
(10:31):
And I know, but you know, theywould only have known that from
like living from the example ofYouTube.
So that's wonderful.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
You can virtually signal you like, and you can say
the right stuff or you like, andthen, uh, you know, these days
with social media being sorampant and it's, I think it's a
largely synthetic age that we'reliving in.
There's so much balls goingaround the place.
There's kind of like people,virtue signaling and people
being incredibly emotional andpassionate about things.
They're not actually thinkingabout as they close their eyes
(11:00):
at night.
They just want people to thinkthey're heavily invested in
great causes and great things.
I think it dilutes the peoplewho actually do do the good
stuff actually, but that's aseparate subject, but as it
happens, my dad's a side childpsychologist.
My sister is a childpsychologist.
Um, while they're obviouslythey're wonderful people and
they're very bright and veryuseful to talk to in these
(11:21):
situations.
I think a lot of it actually hasbeen.
Um, and it's a sound reallyarrogant when I say it it's
actually been me.
That's driven it.
My, my ex-wife as well.
But in terms of my behavior, ithasn't been, I haven't been
following instructions from mypsychologist father.
Um, it's me, who's done it.
(11:41):
And I've made it that way.
As long as my ex-wife and wehave made it work like that.
And it's not because I'm theworld's best person.
So I want to qualify thatarrogance.
It's not that it's because I buythe most terrifying thing that's
ever happened in my life was thethought that I was going to ruin
my daughters lives by divorcingfrom their money.
(12:02):
And that is what caused me to beincredibly ill.
A few years ago.
It made me really ill.
It gave me, I mean, I, I, youknow, I look back and I realize
I was having panic attacks.
I was all over the place.
I lost four stone in weight inabout four months or five
months.
I didn't eat for days at a time.
Um, really solely based around,I knew, I knew to a point I'm
(12:26):
being glib now on you to a pointthat my ex wife would be
absolutely fine.
I think, you know, there, therewas a level of apathy there
really not, no anger, nohostility, but I knew, I
thought, am I ruining mychildren's lives?
This is their blueprint forrelationships that I'm creating.
And I think a lot of my greatbehavior and it hasn't all been
great, but a lot of it has beendriven by a fear of ruining
(12:48):
their futures actually.
So I probably thought about itmore than I needed to.
Um, but actually I thought whereis, where is the win in being
honorable to their mummy?
Where's the win in that?
You know, it makes me feelrubbish, hurtful, rubbish, the
kids see it.
Um, so they just, we haven't,we've just been lovely to each
(13:09):
other and accommodating and, um,we've taken care of each other
really.
So in a difficult time, so ourkids have seen that and
hopefully, you know, um, my, mydivorce and my ex-wife doesn't
ruin their romantic futures.
That's, that's what I thinkabout really,
Speaker 1 (13:28):
Because you're kind of building a new, well, it it's
a lot, but a lot of people callsort of blended families is kind
of like a new term, um, whereyou can, you know, even some
celebrities they're seen sort of, uh, going on holidays with
each other, with their newpartners, it's just an extended
family kind of, uh, connectionreally.
Um, and I think that's a lovelything as you're kind of already
(13:49):
thinking that way.
Um, do you think your sort ofpotentially, like, you've sort
of mentioned it earlier, butmaybe some part of the
apprehension of having being anew dad again, was sort of
inherently built on this basisof like not wanting to kind of
like ruin, that's a really,that's a really weird word
choice on my behalf, but likeyou said, ruin your kind of ch
(14:10):
children's futures.
Um, you know, maybe it was, youknow, cause you don't want to do
anything against them, like sortof as a father trying to be
selfless.
Is that kind of, part of theapprehension of being a new dad?
Speaker 3 (14:22):
Yeah.
I think one of the fears aroundhaving, um, and just being
completely honest, I, one of thefear, the main fears around
having a baby is how hard it is.
And, um, another fear is that itmarginalizes my daughters even
for a millisecond in the nextdecade, you know, we'd be a
millisecond too many, and thatwould be agony.
I'm a pretty relaxed blokereally, but that would be
(14:43):
agonizing to me.
And I think I would find thatvery, very difficult if I
thought I was doing that.
So I've had long conversationswith my girlfriend and I said,
look, there are going to betimes when there is a baby
screaming in the house and it'sa bit crap and my girls are here
and they're not enjoying beinghere and I desperately want them
to enjoy being at daddy's, youknow, and, and you know, I, I
(15:08):
don't want them to see it asactually a bit of a pain in the
backside being at daddy's andthey don't get any attention
because of this baby.
And there might be times when Ijust have to leave you for an
hour with a crying baby and justtake the girls out to, to get a
sandwich or go for a walk ortake the dog out or something
and just be with them so thatthey are not all consumed by the
(15:29):
hard bits of the baby.
Um, because I don't want themto, I don't want them to
privately say to mommy, or wedon't want to go to daddy's or
they do all, it was just babycrying all the time and we never
get to do anything.
And we can't hear the tele causethe baby's crying, you know,
they're only little, so theydon't know that that's
unreasonable.
Um, so my, you know, I I've sortof sought clearance for my
(15:51):
girlfriend to just occasionallyI've said I will make up the
time.
I promise I'm not gonna lead youin the lurch and use that as an
excuse for, there might be timeswhen I just need to take care of
them and disappear and it willjust be for half an hour or an
hour.
Um, you know, so it's somethingI think about a lot, probably
too much because when you getthere, you're just in the
trenches, aren't you for thefirst six months.
(16:12):
So it's kind of, you just find away to it also, you know, my
girls are with me probably aboutthree days a week, something
like that.
And when my ex-wife and I don'thave a custody agreement in our
divorce, we just very, we justsaw each other out and help each
other out.
And when, whenever it works andit works better that way, but
equally I've got probably, youknow, four nights a week without
(16:33):
the kids here, um, with the babyso that it's not like I've got
all, all three to deal with plusan exhausted girlfriend all the
time.
So actually I think there willbe a lot of time when it's just
the three of us, which will makethings easier
Speaker 1 (16:46):
Because it's been, I mean, your, your youngest is
about nine years old.
Yeah.
Nine.
I mean the last time you were inthis place nine years ago, um,
you know, maybe things, you know, things have changed.
I mean, you're retired now nineyears ago.
What, what, what did life looklike for you?
Were you kind of obviously verybusy with your career or, you
(17:08):
know, is it sort of slightlydifferent for you this time
round?
Speaker 3 (17:12):
Yeah, I, I want it to be different.
Um, well first baby, I, for ourfirst baby, who's 11 now I was a
professional rugby player and Iwasn't only a pro I was, uh, I
was an, a sort of a senior proby that.
I mean, I was getting on a bitand I was struggling to keep up.
My body was struggling to keepup.
I was worried whether I wasgoing to get another contract
and because I kept gettinginjured and kept getting hurt
(17:34):
and you know, it, it, my ex wifeactually said, you know, you can
be noble if you want and do thatstuff, but what is the point I'm
not going to work, I've stoppedworking.
So what is the point in both ofus being written off every day?
So she solely breastfed for sixmonths with the first one.
And I think maybe even longerwith the second one.
(17:56):
So every feed was her and shesaid, I don't want to do
formula.
I want to breastfeed.
She, she liked that.
So it was actually, what's thepoint that you're getting up in
the night.
If she wants to feed, what areyou going to do?
Um, and I've actually got afriend who, uh, believe it or
not.
He gets up with his wife whenshe breastfeeds, he gets up with
(18:17):
her and sits with her everynight and she doesn't need him
to, but he thinks he's doing theright thing and sharing the
load.
All that means is he can't doanything.
He's just sitting there with hishand on her leg or holding her
hand while she's breastfeedingtwo or three times a night,
you're doing it for months andthey're just broken every day,
both of them.
So she wants to have a napduring the day.
And he can't, he's, he's alreadyasleep cause he'd been up all
night.
It's ridiculous.
(18:38):
So it was, we had an agreementsuggested by, by my ex-wife, you
know, you don't do the nights,don't do the nights because
there's not all do those.
You've got a job to maintain.
You're sort of paying themortgage as it were.
But I think I leveraged that toomuch.
And I think I used that as anexcuse to do too little
actually.
And I regret that I do regretthat.
And I think here I'm staring at,you know, I'm not the perfect
(19:02):
daddy, but I'm really good one.
And I, my favorite thing in mylife was being a daddy, but I
actually think it took me acouple of years to get back to
that point.
And I think the reason it tookme a couple of years is because
I didn't invest enough in it atthe start.
I thought, well, I'm a, I'm apro athlete.
I need my rest.
I need to do what I need to do.
I've been conditioned to beselfish.
So it's all, all right,everything I want to do is all
right.
And um, I regret that and myex-wife took, you know, did more
(19:29):
than I think her fair share of,you know, she kind of didn't do
everything she would say shedid, but of course she did it.
I mean, I was, I was in thebuilding, but it's it, she did
so much more than me in thoseearly years.
And um, I really regret that.
So I want to do more of thistime and I want to help out my
girlfriend because it's theright thing to do.
(19:49):
And, um, and I know that ithelps her and it helps the baby
and it helps me and it helps thebond and all that stuff.
But I think if you don't peoplesay, they've got, everyone loves
to say, if you've got anyregrets in life.
Nah, no regrets.
You know, I never no regretslifestyle, but nice one, is
there anything you'd dodifferently if you did it again?
Yeah.
Well that qualifies as a regretfor me.
You have to cry yourself tosleep about it.
(20:11):
But for me, I regret I would doit differently and I intend to
do it differently this timearound.
So for me, that qualifies as alife regret actually.
And you know, I'd acknowledgethat to my ex-wife a few times
and it's all fine and everythingwill everyone's happy, but I
intend to be more involved, putit that way.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Yeah.
Cause I think it's actuallyquite an advantage point that,
you know, cause also you likeDavid nine years ago is going to
be just generally a differentman now.
And that's because of all thatexperience that you've had, that
you can have that sort ofretrospection and go, okay, if I
was going to give myself thisadvice or even if you were going
to give a friend some advice,it's just like, yeah, like you
say, just be a little bit morepresent at the start, you know?
(20:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
And do you know this, this is about, this is about
babies and parenthood and stuff.
There's pot.
I know that.
And I'm um, I read all theauditions book a while ago, a
ghost on our.
He loved it, absolutely lovedit.
One of my favorite books ever.
And she talks about somethingcalled acute mention itis, which
is when someone's got somethinggoing on in their life and it's
all they can talk about and it'sunbelievably annoying.
(21:13):
So I think I've got divorced,acute mentioned itis, but it
just because it ties in soclosely with the parenthood
thing, for me, it's, it's a bigpart of it.
Um, I kind of almost keep it up,but I do think that, you know,
I've been through some majorthings in my life like everyone
has.
Um, I think divorce has taughtme more about being a good
person than anything else in mylife.
(21:35):
Um, as weirdly being very, very,very difficult, even though it
was amicable pretty much thewhole way through, um, and still
is, is taught me so much ifyou're willing to be
introspective and you're willingto, you know, be aggressively
balanced about things and forceyourself to see things from
someone else's point of viewwhen situations like this are
(21:56):
hard, I think you can learn somuch.
I, I seal a sore every day forabout two years, how it could go
pear shaped and how I couldreact to something or she could
react to something.
And if you just it's made mesuch a better dad, like
infinitely better at being a dadbeing divorced and he shouldn't
have to come to that.
That's my point.
(22:18):
You know, it should come beforeyou get to that point.
It didn't last time, but it willthis time.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
Do you think your, your career choice is being a
sportsman?
Cause you're not the firstperson I have to say that I've
spoken to, that have dedicatedtheir lives to sport and the
inherent selfishness that youhave to take.
You know, like the, the hoursyou have to put in, the focus
you have to give, um, obviouslycomes with a huge sacrifice, you
know, that you have to kind oflike miss out on certain things
(22:44):
and you know, really focused onthat.
Do you think almost your jobchoice inherently maybe gave you
one focus and now obviously, youknow, you're a tired and with
the divorce, it's kind ofchanged your mindset from how it
was.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
Do you know?
Uh, yes and no.
I think physically you have tobe selfish as an athlete.
You have to take care of yourbody.
I mean, I wasn't the mostprofessional professional to be
honest with you, but you have totake care of it.
So you miss weddings, you missparties, you miss lash ups, you
miss stag dues, you know, but myjob now is commentating on
sport.
And so, um, what I think thebiggest issue is that my
(23:20):
weekends, I work at weekends.
So, you know, you've got in wheneveryone else is available, I'm
gone again.
And that's been the way since Iwas 18.
It's always been that way sinceI played.
And now I'm still going tomatches every weekend, right?
Except last weekend, it wasFriday, Saturday, Sunday.
Whereas when I was playing, itwas only Saturday, only one of
those days.
So in a sense, it's, it can beharder now.
(23:42):
I think I'm, uh, I can, youknow, I can go for dinner and
have a few beers and I can stayup like, and get up through the
night and do all that stuff nowwithout, you know, fatigue being
an injury risk.
But I still, my career justhappens in my, you know, my
ex-wife didn't mind really thatI just wasn't there that much,
uh, weekends, but I look backand think that's pretty tough
(24:03):
for her.
And you know, my girlfriend nowis like, you know, we're going
to have a baby and you're goingto be gone every weekend when I
want to relax and socialize withyou.
And I said, correct.
That is, and it wasn't idealwith their ma it was like, that
is what I do.
That's who I am.
You know, what I do is atweekends and equally, I'm here
loads during the week.
And if you're not at work, whichyou won't be for awhile, I'll be
(24:26):
with you five days a week andoften six days a week, which is
a lot more than other parents,frankly, other fathers Franklin.
So my work is very flexible.
I'll be, I'll spend a heck of ahuge amount of time at home
compared to my mates that workfor insurance companies and
banks and all that.
Um, but you know, let's, let'sbook a weekend away.
Well, I'm afraid we can't.
So we're trying to book a summerholiday at the moment.
(24:47):
And I'm, I said, I'm afraidthere isn't any time.
So there isn't one.
So we want to, she wants to minibreak.
I said, sorry, there is not aweekend.
Here's my diary find a weekendbetween now and September when
we can go there.
Isn't one.
There is not one.
So that's that.
And what do you do about it?
I mean, it's, this is what I do.
I'm not, I'm 41.
(25:08):
I'm not just going to startcommuting at 4, 5 30 on the five
30 train to London and begin acareer in finance.
My career is in sport.
It gives me a great lifestyle,but there are drawbacks, you
know?
So it, oddly I'm kind ofinvoluntarily selfish now.
So it's still happening, which Ifeel guilty about.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Do you know, it's, it's the nature of the kind of
the business isn't there, butlike you say, you actually have
possibly more available daysnow, but they're just not
necessarily
Speaker 3 (25:38):
90% of 90% of men in the UK.
So it's almost in a sense it'slike what you're moaning about,
but it's like, well, wheneverour friends get together, I'm
going on my own.
I said, yeah, that that is true.
And that's rubbish, but it'swhat I do.
It's who I am.
I love my job.
And it's not like, do you wantthe big house or mill love?
(26:02):
It's nothing to do with that.
It's it's like, this is, sheloves how much I love my job.
She's she's, you know, she is inlove with my passion for my job.
She adores it equally.
There are drawbacks, that's all.
And everyone has those, but I'mnot.
But, um, you know, I've got lotsof mates who work and work in
the city and they don't seetheir children until Saturday.
(26:22):
I mean, they genuinely do notsee their children until
Saturday.
And when they're young.
So if the kids are going to bedbefore 7, 7 30 at night, but one
day I won't name him.
Cause he I've always named itbefore it, he didn't like it.
But he said, he basically didn'tsee his children Monday to
Friday until they were three orfour years old.
I mean, never, never saw themduring the week.
Never went to their school,never worked in a big bank.
(26:44):
No days off, never went to theirschool, you know?
So it could be worse.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
That's a lot of baths .
I mean, that's, that's a knownthing for, I think for a lot of
people, um, a lot of peoplelistening as well, um, that will
know the, kind of the realitiesof, you know, bringing up
children today and, um, keepingyour heads above water,
regardless of what you do withhow you do it.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
I made my kids breakfast this morning, got the
lazy that gets out of bed, madethem breakfast for some to wash
force one, to wash their hairbecause it looked like it had
been dipped in ship, fat cleaned, all that cleaned the nine and
all their uniform didn't.
So I didn't own it wash to dryto their uniform.
Gone dressed, gone to school,made a lot, you know, nobody
breakfast and all that.
And I've been to the gym, goesto the shops to do a bit of
(27:31):
laundry, which I don't do enoughof apparently.
And all that stuff is happeningall day today.
And I'll pick one of them upbefore.
One of them are five, I've gothot dogs lined up for tonight.
I've got a movie lined up.
Um, you know, and I've got,we've got a baby scan in the
morning at eight, which means Idropped the kids off early at my
ex-wife's house already ready togo.
They can walk to school, youknow?
(27:51):
So this is just a standardweekly program.
You know, that I'm, I'm doingthe same, I'm flying around
trying to get everything done.
And, but my job has me smilingon telly.
So it just looks gravy and whata life, but actually the days
I'm at home, I'm that just like,mommy's a mom, it's exactly the
same.
You know, I'm sort of doing allthat business and realizing that
(28:13):
my girlfriend's coming home fromwork tonight and I haven't done
any of the washing up from lastnight then.
So I'm just looking across thekitchen now.
So She'll judge me on that.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
I have to say, cause by at my house was actually
feedlots ad.
He used to love it when I usedto come back from the office.
Cause he knew he had a certaintime to get certain things done
by, and now I'm at home.
It's like, oh God, you could seethe truth.
I do X, Y, and Z during thistime and all this kind of stuff.
But I'm like digging a pigtoday.
(28:47):
But um, I mean, how have yourfriends take it?
So yeah.
You know, any friends that haverecently had, you know,
kneeboards and stuff, if you'vegone to them for some advice,
because it's been nine years,but you know, it's not, not a
huge amount has changed, butlike you say, like social media
is a lot more prevalent now andstuff like that.
I mean any kind of great pearlsof advice you've got from some
of your mates, staff become newparents recently.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
There's one from a friend of mine, lovely bloke,
amazing dad, believe it or not.
When I tell you this, he's got asimilar gap and he's got a two
year old now and he said, mate,don't do it.
Don't do.
It was when I said we might havea baby, do you have a baby?
Might do any.
And he said, don't do it mate.
He said, honestly, I love him somuch, but I absolutely hate my
(29:30):
life.
I have no time.
He's always ill.
I hate my life.
The weekends are the worst daysof all.
When they're meant to be thebest.
I hate my life.
It's awful.
I hate my life.
Don't do it.
I said, by the way, uh, this,the same phone call by the way
we're expecting.
And he just burst intohysterical.
Laughter.
He's like, oh my God.
Oh my God, you idiot.
(29:50):
You don't do it.
He was genuine.
Don't do it.
I love him.
I love him.
Please don't do it for me.
Don't do this.
So I rang another mate afterthat to tell him, and he was
just like over the moon and allthese flowers arrived and he's,
I'm so pleased.
I'm so pleased.
We've got a big gap betweenthree and four and it's the best
thing we ever did or I'm sohappy for you.
(30:11):
The girls are going to love it.
So contrasting reactions.
But it, that way,
Speaker 1 (30:15):
I mean, I mean hats off to the Fred that, or they go
to him for some like, well I wasgoing to say honest advice, but
I mean, Lord, perhaps that'squite the, uh, the feedback.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
Yeah.
I mean, he's maintaining themequally.
He is the most, I won't say hisname.
He is the most amazing dad likefull on hands-on does the lot,
all the time.
He's amazing.
But he's just like, he is happyto be easy, you know, he hates
having to be so selfless, but hedoes it with no visible
resentment.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Oh, I mean, so I can't believe actually we've got
a Z was going to kick us out inabout five minutes.
So just to kind of know, I askedyou, I honestly, this is, it's
been wonderful having a chatwith you about it actually.
Cause it's, it's such a kind of,um, I don't know.
I don't think there's a lot outthere when it talks to you about
new families from a D you know,but from, you know, from a
(31:13):
divorce and it also in a dad'sperspective, I don't think
sometimes these things getspoken about enough.
Even with, like you say with youmay, you know, you gotta be a
bit, whatever ever advice.
I think our listeners will get alot out of this just to kind of
hear a really honest other sideof you.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
Yeah.
I was chatting with a mate thismorning.
Who's having his third baby soonas well.
Very, very similar gaps and allthat.
And um, he's, he's in the armedforces and they've got a
brilliant system where you cantake up to six months paternity
leave and you start to pay itback at the end kind of thing.
But so you can't take theMickey, but you can have it.
(31:51):
I've got another mate who worksfor Diageo, the big drinks for
him.
And he gets six months paternityand all that stuff.
And my job is I'm freelance.
There's no paternity here.
Like just like there was nogrants or benefits or anything
during COVID it just deleted meand you get what you get and
that's fine, but it's it's um, Ithink rightly the vast majority
(32:12):
of concern is directed towardsnew mums.
Rightly however, I think that Idon't think men are ignored, but
I think more and more men'svoices are being heard.
And it's, it's a, it's achallenging time for daddies as
well.
You know, it's also verydifficult for us, but as soon as
you say that, it's almost like,you know, we're seeking sympathy
(32:34):
and I don't think we are, I'mnot, I'm not seeking any
sympathy at all.
Um, in fact, I want to do,because I felt like I didn't
deserve any sympathy first timearound, but I think I'm sort of
preparing for it to bewonderful, but difficult
actually in difficult for a,quite a long period because I'm
frankly not used to being thatselfless.
And, um, what I've needed to dois generally taken priority.
(32:57):
Not because I'm an alpha,horrible gear, but it's like if
I'm commentating on a rugbygame, it kicks off at three
o'clock on a Saturday.
I can't push that back for anhour.
Now I've got to be there.
So it's live telly that that ishappening.
Whereas you can put emails off,you can put the odd zoom call
off.
You can't put off a kickoff onlive telly.
So where I have to be is where Ihave to be.
Um, so there's, there's someadjustments coming, but I'm, I'm
(33:19):
actually really looking forwardto it.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Fantastic.
And David, thank you so much forcoming on.
I've so enjoyed chatting andlistening to you, uh, this
afternoon.
Uh, but just to end.
And so just to give a heads up,we've got three minutes.
Um, but what are you mostlooking forward to, uh, come
September when your daughterturns out?
Speaker 3 (33:39):
Uh, I'm actually most looking forward to my daughters,
my existing daughters, uh,getting to know their and
showing love to their new littlesister.
That's that's the mostimportant.
That's the biggest thing for meto be honest, I also, my
girlfriend was just born to be amom.
She was just incredibly maternalchildren love her.
She loves children.
I can't wait to see her movefrom the exhaustive phase to the
(34:03):
sort of glowing phase where youcan really appreciate what
you've got.
And I can't wait for that.
Um, just watching her beam causeI know she would just love it.
She's obsessed with babies andchildren.
So it's just perfect for her.
Um, I'm looking forward toactually the stage when they
start giving something back,just being completely honest.
Um, and I'll, I'll do all thelovely stuff before that, but
(34:25):
when you start getting smilesand a bit of movement and a tiny
little bits of independence ofmovement and thought that a bit.
So, um, I'm looking forward tothe most
Speaker 1 (34:34):
Fantastic, well all the best and we can't wait to
see the little lady when shearrives in September.
Wonderful.
Well thank you so much, David,and have a lovely day running
around after your girls, by thesound of it, getting a little
bit of washing and yeah, takecare and thanks so much.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
Thank you very much
Speaker 1 (34:58):
To find out more information about the topics
covered in today's podcast hitsthe eye-candy blog page on
www.eyecandyworld.com forwardslash blog.
You can also catch up on seasonone, featuring thought provoking
and engaging interviews from amix of industry leaders,
experts, celebrity, parents, andhealthcare specialists all via
your preferred podcast provider.
(35:19):
If you enjoy today's episode anddon't forget to leave a review
and hit like and subscribe toensure you never miss an
episode.
I candy is a proud supporter ofgreat Ormond street children's
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extraordinary hospital dependson charitable support to give
(35:42):
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potential identification from aslittle as 10 pounds could pay
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.