October 30, 2024 • 30 mins
Musician Ben Lee joins us for a fascinating journey through his life and career, offering insights into his musical beginnings and creative evolution. From the formation of Noise Addict as a teenager to the crafting of his solo debut album "Grandpaw Would". Listeners will gain a deeper appreciation for Ben's knack for creating catchy pop gems and his unwavering commitment to genuine artistic expression.
The podcast delves into the crucial support of Ben's father, who played an instrumental role in his early music career. His father's unwavering dedication opened unexpected doors, including opportunities with Sonic Youth and Grand Royal, the label established by the Beastie Boys. Ben reflects candidly on the challenges he faced, balancing ambition with reality, and important career milestones, such as his experiences recording "Breathing Tornadoes."
Finally, we explore Ben's perspective on the ever-evolving music industry and the impact of emerging platforms on modern creativity. Embracing change while staying true to his indie rock roots, Ben discusses the creative freedom streaming platforms provide and the influence of 90s music on his new projects. From upcoming singles to exciting ventures like a children's TV show pitch, Ben's positive energy and passion for exploring creativity across diverse mediums shine through, offering inspiration for both artists and fans alike.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:21):
all right, here we are, another episode of bureau
Bureau Podcast.
I mean again, great pleasureRunning into these artists.
I mean I reached out to Ben Lee.
I threw an email over to himand like wow, he said yes, so
here I have Ben Lee coming infrom Sydney.
Is that correct, ben?
Speaker 2 (00:42):
That is true.
I am here From.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Sydney.
Is that correct, ben?
That is true, I am here Verycool.
Well, ben, I don't want to dowhat I normally do with you,
because I like to go and talkabout your beginnings and all
that.
I want to ask you what was itlike?
You started Noise Addict atquite a young age, in your early
teens.
What was the first song thatcame out of at at quite a young
(01:04):
age, in your early teens?
What was the first song thatthat came out of that band?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Well, the band was sort of just this construct.
Uh, I was being veryresourceful and, uh, utilizing
you know, uh, that friend ofmine, his older brother, has a
drum kit, so this guy should hasaccess to drums, he's the
drummer.
Um, so it wasn't really like aband that music came out of.
It was like I'd write songs andI'd bring it.
I'd be like, okay, play this,play that you know, um, but uh,
(01:32):
I mean the first song though,that you guys played together
like once you assembled yeah, Imean, it would have been
something from that first def epthat thurston moore put out, or
like dead kennedy's, let'slynch the landlord.
Or um, holidays in the sun, sexpistols.
We did that.
Um.
But yeah, there was like ahandful of songs I'd written
like listen to your girlfriendand summer trip and filthy, and
(01:54):
those, those first ones I I sortof.
It's funny when I rememberyears later when rivers cuomo
was at harvard and I heard he'ddone that excel spreadsheet
breaking down every nirvana andBeatles song.
I really related to it becausethat's sort of how I started
writing songs where I analyzed,I was like, okay, so it goes,
verse, chorus, verse, chorus,solo, sometimes a bridge, double
(02:17):
chorus, end.
And it was like understandingthe basic formula for a pop song
was kind of how I did it.
I went, okay, I need chords fora verse, chords for a chorus,
and so you can have more minorin the verses and more major in
the choruses.
Like I just sort of learned thebasic science of it and that's
what all those early songs wereand in a way it hasn't changed.
Yeah, right.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
And that formula that you cracked into.
Did that serve like?
Did it ever change at all?
Like I know that in lateralbums you started to kind of
maybe get a little bit moreexperimental or like dabbling in
different genres, but did youpretty well maintain that
structure throughout most ofyour songwriting that you've
(02:57):
done so far?
Speaker 2 (02:58):
I would say that anytime I veer away from a
traditional pop song or folksong format, I'm doing it kind
of consciously.
You know, it's like in heartsof darkness when Coppola says to
Dennis Hopper you got to learnyour lines before you can get
them.
So it was a bit like that.
Like that, even when I'm notdoing that format, I'm aware
(03:21):
that I've strayed from thatformat.
So it's a conscious choice, youknow, um, but I've, you know
little, I like jammy bits andnoisy bits and you know, I've
also always like, I have thatindie rock thing of.
I love a good 30 second song,that is.
It's almost like from hardcoreor something.
Um, so, but you know, ingeneral, the the framework of a
(03:43):
pop song seems to work for me,right.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
And that first record that you did solo-wise.
Grandpa, I got addicted to thatrecord big time and it's kind
of like you just said, theselittle short pop gems.
How did all those songs kind ofassemble that first record of
yours that you put out?
I mean it came to Chicago torecord.
Did you have all of that inyour baggage when you came over
(04:11):
to the US?
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Yeah, I came and I recorded 12, I think or 14,
because I thought that was likewhat a number you're meant to
have on.
But no one actually timed thesongs and realized that they
were all like two minutes each.
So at that point, because itwas pretty streaming, what
constituted an lp, like a fulllength?
It had to be over 30 minutesand I think I came in at like 28
(04:34):
minutes or something like.
So grand royal were prettyannoyed that they brought me
over there and everything.
So then they sent casey rice toum to sydney to record a few
more.
But but yeah, I was writing.
I used to write a song prettymuch every day, like after
school, just come home, write asong.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
I just picked the best ones right and like what's
your, what was your writingprocess back then, when you're
just you know you had yourformula.
You're figuring it out like how, what was your process?
Like you'd come home fromschool and and what would come
first?
Like would a lyric hit you orwould it be a couple of chords
put together?
Like how did you start creatingsongs for those that first
(05:11):
record?
Speaker 2 (05:12):
I mean, I think when it's best it's neither strictly
one or the other, because evenwords have rhythm to them.
So even if you come up with aphrase, there's a built-in
musicality to that phrase, tothe way the words sound that
suggest music, you know, but alot of you know a lot of
imitation.
I've always been sort of like akind of a big believer in
(05:35):
imitation, because you can'tsound like anyone else,
especially when you're starting,because you don't have the
technical skills to imitate well, so you end up doing these sort
of very weird versions of.
So I think I was just thinkinga lot about Tom Morgan from
Smudge, this songwriter I loved,and Jonathan Richman and
(05:58):
Pavement and Sebado, and justsort of like writing my versions
of those songs and trying to,you know, get girls I had
crushes on to notice me orwhatever and like what was your
first, like chords that youlearned, that that ended up
coming through in your songs.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
You know I mean pretty much.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
From when I learned my first three chords like e, a
and d and D I wrote songs.
I mean you only need like meand my daughter she's going to
get up and do a song with me onthe weekend at my show and she
wanted to cover a big thief songand it's a G and C chords.
You know the whole song justgoes back and forward and she's
like blown away, like you cansee that moment when you realize
(06:41):
that it's not as complicated asyou feared.
That's like the experience Ihad seeing Nirvana play when I
was like this is like three guysjust that are friends and
obviously the songwriting isincredible and they were great
musicians but the actualarchitecture of it was not
complicated and it's a very it'sa very liberating kind of thing
(07:01):
.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Yeah, I read also, ben, that you and tell me if I'm
wrong here, but you were on theVoice in Australia.
Were you a judge?
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Yeah, I was like a mentor, they called it.
So it was like you had thejudge, like in my case it was
Joel Madden from Good Charlotte,and then I was his like guest.
You know, it was just likeanother way to sort of shoehorn
some celebs into it, orsomething right and and like
what is what is it?
Speaker 1 (07:28):
you know, like when you see an artist and listen to
them perform, like what hits youfirst about?
Speaker 2 (07:35):
wow, like there's something there, um well, it's
interesting because I don't knowthat I'm a particularly good
a&R person in that sense ofgoing like do they have it or
not?
Because, like I remember a tourwith like there was like
Lemonheads headlining me in themiddle, matchbox 20 on first,
(07:56):
and I just didn't.
I thought Matchbox 20, they had.
I liked that song, push.
I thought that was pretty good,but I thought this is like a
major label thing that's notgoing to work essentially.
So I'm just sort of not thatgood at going.
This is going to a hundredpercent have commercial appeal.
I think I know my taste verywell.
(08:16):
So, yeah, like it's interestingnow that Ione and I have our
company Weirder together and wesort of use it as a platform to
share work that we like, becauseit's giving me more of a chance
to just sort of realize thatjust because things are good
(08:37):
doesn't mean they're like for me.
So like, sometimes, like I'llcome across things I'll be like
that's really good but it's not.
It doesn't fit with what, thevision I have of what I want to
share.
So what kind of lights me up interms of an artist is I really
like?
I kind of just really like amixture of courage and
(08:58):
vulnerability.
I like anything that.
I like things that have a DIY,some level of DIY-ness to them.
Like I don't want to feel thehands of 40 year old men on a
record by a 20 year old.
You know what I mean.
I just don't want to feel that.
I want to feel that I'm likeinside the artistic experience
(09:23):
of a young person.
So I I would rather it feelclumsy and sloppy and messy, but
authentic in that way.
So that's sort of just, it'sjust what I, but it's quite.
It's hard to say.
It's like sometimes it'ssomething and you're just like
oh my God, this is like my vibe.
This is what I want to in mycar while I'm driving around.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Right, right.
And when you first startedperforming, did you have that
courage as you talked about justnow, like when you went up on
stage and started deliveringyour music to people?
Or did it have to come, like,did it take a while to gather
that courage, to keep pushing itforward?
Speaker 2 (10:04):
It's a bit hard to say, because when you start out
you have a lot of bravado andcourage.
Real courage usually comesthrough experience.
You know, you get to knowyourself.
So I think I put on a prettygood show of like, but then in a
way you think about it like ina war does a soldier actually
have to be brave or do they haveto act brave?
(10:24):
You know, you can still bepretty effective just by faking
it.
But then later, as thepressures build and different
opportunities come up, if youdon't have genuine courage or
self-belief, it becomes a littleharder to meet the challenges.
(10:45):
You know, I would say overall Ihad guts you know what?
I mean yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Yeah, I heard too.
I don't know if it was aninterview or a podcast, but your
drive like it was there fromthe start, Like you knew what
you wanted to do.
I think you referenced like thedoor opened slightly and you
were like you jammed your footin it.
You're like, yeah, it's notclosing, like yeah, this is what
I need to do.
And my, my question is, I guess, ben, is where did that come to
(11:17):
you, um, at such a young age toto want to put yourself out
there to the world and writesongs and travel, how did you
come to that as an individual?
Speaker 2 (11:32):
I don't know if I have an answer to that.
That is, I always loved music.
I always loved performing, Iliked singing, I liked
storytelling, I likedentertaining.
And then it's like my needs andcultures, like the moment that
culture was in with like indierock, like post-Nirvana indie
(11:57):
rock and lo-fi music and homerecorded music got like this
giant boost because suddenlypeople were interested in more
left of center artists and youdidn't have to be perfect, you
didn't have to be really slick,so it's just like who I was and
what the world was where it was.
It was like the right moment.
It could easily had, had thisbeen a hundred years earlier, um
(12:22):
, having attitude would not havebeen enough to start a music
career.
So I I feel very lucky in thatsense.
You know it's timing and yourdad helped you with that first
gig with noise addict is thatlike my dad was like really
helpful in general, like he tookus to when we opened for fugazi
(12:42):
.
He drove the van down.
Um, he, uh, he, yeah, he wasloving and he liked my passion
and my enthusiasm.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Um, so, yeah, he was how did you communicate that
passion to your dad, like, howdid he see that passion in you,
that music?
Was it like I?
I gotta help ben, you know, getout well, mainly just because
form or whatever.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
No, it was mainly just because I was doing it,
like he saw me like I was goingto the post office and mailing
demos and trying to book gigsand you know it was also like
the era of the landline.
So he heard every.
I was following up and doing itand he was like I think I can
get you a gig at this waverlylibrary books, secondhand book
sale and sausage sizzle.
(13:25):
I was like amazing.
I mean, that was like a verysweet gesture yeah, and how did
like?
Speaker 1 (13:31):
did you expect that there would be somebody there
that was kind of like scopingthings out and like was that a
complete surprise?
Like because then after thatyou would, you'd hooked on with
sonic youth to go in and openyeah, well, that was all through
the same guy.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
This guy, steve pad um, who had been given my tape
because I'd sent it intowaterfront records and he was
about to start a co-venture,okay with um, with uh, with
another guy, ste Stephen, atWaterfront.
So he brought bands out andeverything.
So I think I'd send it to themand obviously what you do is you
(14:07):
tell them where you'll beplaying next.
And we had a gig and they senthim.
So no, it was a surprisebecause literally it was all
seventh graders, it was just ourfriends sitting in a row, and
then this one dude in his 20s,his hips, the dude right, yeah,
um, artists have been telling methat because I ask, like, when
did you know that something washappening, you know, in your
(14:30):
career?
Speaker 1 (14:31):
and they always say, well, I didn't have to invite
people to show anymore, theywould just come, you know.
But before that, it was all youknow, I had to, like, get my
friends and convince them tocome down with the show and fill
up a bit of space.
Um, and that that wasoftentimes one of their first
kind of wow, I didn't invite anyof these people in there,
(14:53):
you're listening.
You know like ready to listenwhat was another?
a tipping point, ben that, sothat one obviously propelled you
know what were some othermoments in your career that that
that changed the trajectory ofperhaps where you were going, I
mean it's hard for me toidentify because it was just one
(15:15):
to another, to another, toanother, but like I mean, I can
think of lots of kind ofcreative ones.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Like like hearing Jonathan Richman and realizing
that sorry, realizing that youcould play acoustic guitar and
it could sort of be punk, thatwas like a really big for me.
Um, uh, yeah, things like whenthe beastie boys, when they had
grand royal starting and theywanted to put out my music, um,
(15:49):
when liz fair's record came out,exiling guy bill, that's what
led me to doing grandpa woodwith brad wood, so, and then
just tons of these kind ofthings like.
Another one was sort of likewhen I was about 19, I'd
finished high school and Ithought I was going to make
breathing tornadoes in,basically, my school holidays
(16:10):
and then go to uni and it justdidn't come together because I
was trying to do something a bitmore ambitious and it was just
getting delayed.
You know how things do and Iremember I called my mom.
I was feeling like really badbecause they'd been so
supportive and I was going to goto university and I just said,
oh, I don't know if I'm going toget the record done in time the
label wants me to do it, youknow, in April, not in December
(16:31):
or whatever.
And my mom said university willalways be there.
Just follow the opportunities.
And it was like one of the mostgenerous things that my parents
ever did for me was just giveme permission like help, take,
absolve me of any guilt infollowing my dreams.
So those were.
Yeah, that was a big one.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
So, ben, a new record .
Just you know, you just droppeda new record and you kind of
went back to the old old schoola little bit in the sense of
recording and keeping it verylike, kind of you know, back to
its roots or your roots as anartist.
How did those songs cometogether?
(17:11):
And were those songs that justall happened in one shot, or had
those been kind of a?
You grabbed them from varioustimes throughout your career and
then yeah like how did thatrecord come to be?
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Well, I wrote them over the course of a year or 18
months or something.
But what I generally find is Istart writing and like themes
and cohesive ties start becomingapparent and I think I was just
.
It's so funny like the furtherwe get from the 90s, like you
start seeing new generations ofkids who have infatuations with
(17:47):
it.
You know, like all those kidsdoing that fit check thing on
TikTok to the Pavement song,it's just like it's amazing.
Like it's amazing watching Pavepavement become the
establishment in a way.
You know, but I think it'sgiven.
I spent a lot of my time mytwenties like running from indie
(18:10):
rock in a lot of ways, becauseI felt like it was really.
It was just sort of like siloed, like you could and couldn't do
, and I think because thegeneration before me, like the
pavements and separdos and sonicyouth, like they came through
hardcore, so their like sense oflike what was right and wrong
about art, it was very strict,you know, whereas I in a way
(18:35):
have more in common with likethe next, with like the
streaming generation, who justsaw it all as kind of fodder for
my own curiosity and creativity.
Um, so I was curious aboutthings that now like there's no
selling out anymore anyway, andthere is no like niches and
subcultures, like they all justmerge and everything but like
(18:57):
when I had mandy moore sing onripe, that was just sort of like
people were looking at me likewhat isn't this an indie rock,
right, like.
So I spent a lot of time likerunning from um, having like too
strict a definition of what wasokay and what wasn't.
Um, and now that more time haspassed, the good that I got
(19:17):
through coming up through indierock in the early 90s, Like it's
just so crystal clear to me andthe parts of that that I want
to carry with me every day.
And that's not all of it, youknow, and that's why, like on
the record in Less Control, Isay you know, I still love the
old heads because they've stillgot soul, but when they get
stuck in the past it leaves mecold Because, like, I really do
(19:38):
appreciate what bonds me to thatgeneration but I also want to
keep pushing forward.
So just sort of all I was.
Just this is what I wasinterested in and that's what I
was writing about and how?
Speaker 1 (19:51):
how is the juggernaut of the music industry, like
with this release that you'veput out, like, I mean, you've
flowed through so many decadesof you know, you know, creating
an album, releasing it, touringsingles has it changed over time
?
Do you think, like, kind ofwith the with your eye on the
(20:11):
record that you've just put out?
Speaker 2 (20:13):
yeah, I mean the industry has changed immensely.
I mean I think I guess cause I'msort of like a good student,
like ultimately, like in mypersonality makeup that when
Noise Addict made our firstdemos, I found like an industry
advice instructions in the backof like our village voice type
thing in Sydney and it told youwhat to do with your demo and
(20:34):
how to get it to labels and whatyou should put in the pack.
And I just followed theinstructions and I've always
felt like that's no different tolike learning how to do TikTok
or learning how the streamingalgorithm works, Like I've
always been open to going okay,what are the rules of the game?
And if I want to get my workacross, I've got to learn how
they work and I've got to dothem to some extent.
(20:55):
So that core principle hasn'treally changed to some extent.
So that core principle hasn'treally changed.
I'm still looking at thelandscape going how can I engage
with this in a way that allowsme to reach out but also
preserves the inherent nature ofwhatever it is that I've made
or who I am?
Speaker 1 (21:17):
So cool and kind of like you've had a bit of
distance from, from the recordthat you've just put out.
How do you, how do you feelabout it, how do you, how do you
look at it?
Speaker 2 (21:28):
And you know, now that you have this artifact that
you created, I feel good CauseI'm also like now that I'm doing
I've been doing so many showsand I've got this great band
together and I'm doing lots ofsolo shows too but also band
shows and I'm just realizinglike the architecture of like a
live indie rock band like guitar, bass, drums, keyboard
(21:50):
hopefully two guitars at somepoint, if we can get the budgets
up a little bit, you know butbasically like all this other
stuff that like tracks andvisuals, like they're all great
and they're fine and everyoneuses them.
But I want to do this.
I just want to have like agreat touring indie rock band
with great harmonies and greatguitar sounds.
And you know the simplicity ofthat.
(22:10):
And I think a lot of what I wasexploring by having that
amazing rhythm section on thatalbum was getting back to songs
that can stand up with just thatmore just basic, you know,
aesthetic or that sort ofstructure.
I'm probably now I'm in a vibefor some doing some home
(22:31):
recording.
One of the things I'm interestedin is that when radio was the
dominant means of sharing music,it was actually very
gentrifying to production and tosong structure because it all
had to sort of sound the sameLike.
(22:51):
I always remember that ideadon't touch your dial.
The goal of radio programmingis just to give you this ongoing
experience that you leave on inthe background Right, whereas
with streaming, I think, likethe algorithm works best if it
(23:12):
encourages people to hit, like,on a song that comes up in the
algorithm.
So where radio said don't touchthat dial, I think streaming
wants you to touch that dial,you know, and they want you to
explore and go Ooh, I like that,ooh, I like that.
So, in a way, things that jumpout um have a better chance than
they did 20 years ago, where itfelt like things that fitted in
(23:34):
.
So I'm actually feeling quitebrave with, like production
choices and subject matter andstuff, because I think the
things that separate you now areactually more of a competitive
advantage.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
Interesting, interesting, well, I mean, it's
such a great album.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
Thank you, I've been enjoying it.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
It has that heart and like that hunch to it and
there's still some subtle songlike delicate songs, but like um
.
I really loved watching kind ofyou do um, I think it was pop
queen with, with your guys thatyou recorded with just to kind
of relive, um, and it reallylike it, like wow, like it
(24:17):
brought back all that, thatflood of feeling from Grandpa
Wood.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
It's so weird that, like I'm like married to these
songs.
Now I realize like whenever Iwrite a song, whenever I write
an album, release an album,probably two songs or three
songs from it are going tobecome part of this body of work
that I will continue to play.
You know, you never can tellexactly which ones.
(24:43):
They are, the ones that havestaying power, but I do realize
that it's this mix betweenhaving a light touch but also
realizing you're building thisbody of work and they're going
to stick around, they're goingto chase you.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
Which is amazing, right?
Because it's like you have thisarchive now of and I mean you
know it's on a record on a tape,on a cd, whatever.
I mean it just lives well, itlives in my heart.
I'll tell you that um thank youreally cool.
So, ben, just to kind of as wekind of wrap things up here what
, what, what is this?
The rest of this year look likein and into beyond with your
(25:21):
music.
Um, are you?
well, there's lots of umrecording I imagine, and uh
ideas popping out and songs yeah, every day and stuff I've got.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
You know, I've got lots of single.
Like I have a single actuallycoming out at the end of this
week, just a song I recordedwith my friend, this solo artist
, um johanna samuels, in la.
We wrote a song called SunsetMarquee, so we're putting that
out this weekend.
I've developed this kidsanimated musical TV show that
I'm going to Taiwan, to theAsian Animation Summit to pitch
(25:52):
in November.
We're still building ourpodcasts, we're developing a lot
.
We're gearing up for next year,my wife's memoir coming out, so
lots of things around that.
And, yeah, I'm going to startmaking a record at some point.
I'm just sort of letting thecreativity bubble up, like it
usually hits a point where, likeI can't not pick up my guitar
(26:14):
and write a song and I'm justlike I can feel that on its way.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Amazing, amazing.
Well, I really want to thankyou again, ben, for carving a
little window of your time.
I mean, I love the creativitythat you're talking about and
that you're dabbling in multipleareas.
Like creativity has no silos,totally, it must be free, and
you're a beautiful model of thatcreative freedom.
(26:39):
Thanks mate Cheers free andyou're a beautiful model of that
creative.
Thanks, mate.
So I really appreciate yourtime and good luck with with
what's to come and we'lldefinitely be following and I
hope, as the next record comesout, you might want to come back
on and we'll continue thisconversation.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
Let's do it.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
Thanks so much and tell my friends.
So yeah, I've been kind of down, but when I get into town Maybe
you could come round.
Let's make it good again, don'tyou want to make it good again?
(27:35):
Baby, I'm half asleep, halfawake.
I've got a heart that can breakA vibe I want to create.
Awake, I've got a heart thatcan break.
I've had but want to create,but I've been feeling so strange
, can't stop reading the signs.
But if I run out of time withall this love in my mind, maybe
I'm ready to change.
Oh yeah, I'm ready to change.
(28:01):
Baby, I really really want to bePositive energy, but living in
reality Is getting kind of heavy.
I can see it right there infront of me.
Give me a hint of your positiveenergy, your positive energy,
(28:34):
thank you.
I guess they're in the way outof all the sadness around.
Just keep my feet on the groundand do it all with a smile.
Yeah, we can do it all with asmile.
Baby, tell me, don't you wannabe Positive energy Living in
(29:01):
reality?
You know it ain't easy, can'tyou see it's love and other
enemies Take a hit on mypositive energy.
I really, really want to bePositive energy.
Living in reality it's gettingkind of heavy.
I can see it right there infront of me.
(29:23):
Give me a hint of your positiveenergy, your positive energy,
cause I'ma never know why.
I guess I know I could cry.
Cause I'm a never know why.
I guess I know I could cry.
I guess I'm a never know why.
I guess I know I could cry.
(29:45):
I guess I'm a never know why.
I guess I know I could cry.
I get so quiet and I don't eventell my friends I really,
really wanna to be positiveenergy.
Living in reality is gettingkind of heavy.
(30:07):
I can see it right there infront of me.
Give me a hit of your positiveenergy.
Come on, give it all to me,positive energy, because living
in reality Is getting out ofhand.
Can't you see?
It's changing up our chemistry,getting closer to something
(30:27):
that we want to be.
I can see it right there infront of me.
Give me a hint of your positiveenergy, your positive energy.
all right, here we are, another episode of bureau
Bureau Podcast.
I mean again, great pleasureRunning into these artists.
I mean I reached out to Ben Lee.
I threw an email over to himand like wow, he said yes, so
here I have Ben Lee coming infrom Sydney.
Is that correct, ben?
Speaker 2 (00:42):
That is true.
I am here From.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Sydney.
Is that correct, ben?
That is true, I am here Verycool.
Well, ben, I don't want to dowhat I normally do with you,
because I like to go and talkabout your beginnings and all
that.
I want to ask you what was itlike?
You started Noise Addict atquite a young age, in your early
teens.
What was the first song thatcame out of at at quite a young
(01:04):
age, in your early teens?
What was the first song thatthat came out of that band?
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Well, the band was sort of just this construct.
Uh, I was being veryresourceful and, uh, utilizing
you know, uh, that friend ofmine, his older brother, has a
drum kit, so this guy should hasaccess to drums, he's the
drummer.
Um, so it wasn't really like aband that music came out of.
It was like I'd write songs andI'd bring it.
I'd be like, okay, play this,play that you know, um, but uh,
(01:32):
I mean the first song though,that you guys played together
like once you assembled yeah, Imean, it would have been
something from that first def epthat thurston moore put out, or
like dead kennedy's, let'slynch the landlord.
Or um, holidays in the sun, sexpistols.
We did that.
Um.
But yeah, there was like ahandful of songs I'd written
like listen to your girlfriendand summer trip and filthy, and
(01:54):
those, those first ones I I sortof.
It's funny when I rememberyears later when rivers cuomo
was at harvard and I heard he'ddone that excel spreadsheet
breaking down every nirvana andBeatles song.
I really related to it becausethat's sort of how I started
writing songs where I analyzed,I was like, okay, so it goes,
verse, chorus, verse, chorus,solo, sometimes a bridge, double
(02:17):
chorus, end.
And it was like understandingthe basic formula for a pop song
was kind of how I did it.
I went, okay, I need chords fora verse, chords for a chorus,
and so you can have more minorin the verses and more major in
the choruses.
Like I just sort of learned thebasic science of it and that's
what all those early songs wereand in a way it hasn't changed.
Yeah, right.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
And that formula that you cracked into.
Did that serve like?
Did it ever change at all?
Like I know that in lateralbums you started to kind of
maybe get a little bit moreexperimental or like dabbling in
different genres, but did youpretty well maintain that
structure throughout most ofyour songwriting that you've
(02:57):
done so far?
Speaker 2 (02:58):
I would say that anytime I veer away from a
traditional pop song or folksong format, I'm doing it kind
of consciously.
You know, it's like in heartsof darkness when Coppola says to
Dennis Hopper you got to learnyour lines before you can get
them.
So it was a bit like that.
Like that, even when I'm notdoing that format, I'm aware
(03:21):
that I've strayed from thatformat.
So it's a conscious choice, youknow, um, but I've, you know
little, I like jammy bits andnoisy bits and you know, I've
also always like, I have thatindie rock thing of.
I love a good 30 second song,that is.
It's almost like from hardcoreor something.
Um, so, but you know, ingeneral, the the framework of a
(03:43):
pop song seems to work for me,right.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
And that first record that you did solo-wise.
Grandpa, I got addicted to thatrecord big time and it's kind
of like you just said, theselittle short pop gems.
How did all those songs kind ofassemble that first record of
yours that you put out?
I mean it came to Chicago torecord.
Did you have all of that inyour baggage when you came over
(04:11):
to the US?
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Yeah, I came and I recorded 12, I think or 14,
because I thought that was likewhat a number you're meant to
have on.
But no one actually timed thesongs and realized that they
were all like two minutes each.
So at that point, because itwas pretty streaming, what
constituted an lp, like a fulllength?
It had to be over 30 minutesand I think I came in at like 28
(04:34):
minutes or something like.
So grand royal were prettyannoyed that they brought me
over there and everything.
So then they sent casey rice toum to sydney to record a few
more.
But but yeah, I was writing.
I used to write a song prettymuch every day, like after
school, just come home, write asong.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
I just picked the best ones right and like what's
your, what was your writingprocess back then, when you're
just you know you had yourformula.
You're figuring it out like how, what was your process?
Like you'd come home fromschool and and what would come
first?
Like would a lyric hit you orwould it be a couple of chords
put together?
Like how did you start creatingsongs for those that first
(05:11):
record?
Speaker 2 (05:12):
I mean, I think when it's best it's neither strictly
one or the other, because evenwords have rhythm to them.
So even if you come up with aphrase, there's a built-in
musicality to that phrase, tothe way the words sound that
suggest music, you know, but alot of you know a lot of
imitation.
I've always been sort of like akind of a big believer in
(05:35):
imitation, because you can'tsound like anyone else,
especially when you're starting,because you don't have the
technical skills to imitate well, so you end up doing these sort
of very weird versions of.
So I think I was just thinkinga lot about Tom Morgan from
Smudge, this songwriter I loved,and Jonathan Richman and
(05:58):
Pavement and Sebado, and justsort of like writing my versions
of those songs and trying to,you know, get girls I had
crushes on to notice me orwhatever and like what was your
first, like chords that youlearned, that that ended up
coming through in your songs.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
You know I mean pretty much.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
From when I learned my first three chords like e, a
and d and D I wrote songs.
I mean you only need like meand my daughter she's going to
get up and do a song with me onthe weekend at my show and she
wanted to cover a big thief songand it's a G and C chords.
You know the whole song justgoes back and forward and she's
like blown away, like you cansee that moment when you realize
(06:41):
that it's not as complicated asyou feared.
That's like the experience Ihad seeing Nirvana play when I
was like this is like three guysjust that are friends and
obviously the songwriting isincredible and they were great
musicians but the actualarchitecture of it was not
complicated and it's a very it'sa very liberating kind of thing
(07:01):
.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Yeah, I read also, ben, that you and tell me if I'm
wrong here, but you were on theVoice in Australia.
Were you a judge?
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Yeah, I was like a mentor, they called it.
So it was like you had thejudge, like in my case it was
Joel Madden from Good Charlotte,and then I was his like guest.
You know, it was just likeanother way to sort of shoehorn
some celebs into it, orsomething right and and like
what is what is it?
Speaker 1 (07:28):
you know, like when you see an artist and listen to
them perform, like what hits youfirst about?
Speaker 2 (07:35):
wow, like there's something there, um well, it's
interesting because I don't knowthat I'm a particularly good
a&R person in that sense ofgoing like do they have it or
not?
Because, like I remember a tourwith like there was like
Lemonheads headlining me in themiddle, matchbox 20 on first,
(07:56):
and I just didn't.
I thought Matchbox 20, they had.
I liked that song, push.
I thought that was pretty good,but I thought this is like a
major label thing that's notgoing to work essentially.
So I'm just sort of not thatgood at going.
This is going to a hundredpercent have commercial appeal.
I think I know my taste verywell.
(08:16):
So, yeah, like it's interestingnow that Ione and I have our
company Weirder together and wesort of use it as a platform to
share work that we like, becauseit's giving me more of a chance
to just sort of realize thatjust because things are good
(08:37):
doesn't mean they're like for me.
So like, sometimes, like I'llcome across things I'll be like
that's really good but it's not.
It doesn't fit with what, thevision I have of what I want to
share.
So what kind of lights me up interms of an artist is I really
like?
I kind of just really like amixture of courage and
(08:58):
vulnerability.
I like anything that.
I like things that have a DIY,some level of DIY-ness to them.
Like I don't want to feel thehands of 40 year old men on a
record by a 20 year old.
You know what I mean.
I just don't want to feel that.
I want to feel that I'm likeinside the artistic experience
(09:23):
of a young person.
So I I would rather it feelclumsy and sloppy and messy, but
authentic in that way.
So that's sort of just, it'sjust what I, but it's quite.
It's hard to say.
It's like sometimes it'ssomething and you're just like
oh my God, this is like my vibe.
This is what I want to in mycar while I'm driving around.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Right, right.
And when you first startedperforming, did you have that
courage as you talked about justnow, like when you went up on
stage and started deliveringyour music to people?
Or did it have to come, like,did it take a while to gather
that courage, to keep pushing itforward?
Speaker 2 (10:04):
It's a bit hard to say, because when you start out
you have a lot of bravado andcourage.
Real courage usually comesthrough experience.
You know, you get to knowyourself.
So I think I put on a prettygood show of like, but then in a
way you think about it like ina war does a soldier actually
have to be brave or do they haveto act brave?
(10:24):
You know, you can still bepretty effective just by faking
it.
But then later, as thepressures build and different
opportunities come up, if youdon't have genuine courage or
self-belief, it becomes a littleharder to meet the challenges.
(10:45):
You know, I would say overall Ihad guts you know what?
I mean yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Yeah, I heard too.
I don't know if it was aninterview or a podcast, but your
drive like it was there fromthe start, Like you knew what
you wanted to do.
I think you referenced like thedoor opened slightly and you
were like you jammed your footin it.
You're like, yeah, it's notclosing, like yeah, this is what
I need to do.
And my, my question is, I guess, ben, is where did that come to
(11:17):
you, um, at such a young age toto want to put yourself out
there to the world and writesongs and travel, how did you
come to that as an individual?
Speaker 2 (11:32):
I don't know if I have an answer to that.
That is, I always loved music.
I always loved performing, Iliked singing, I liked
storytelling, I likedentertaining.
And then it's like my needs andcultures, like the moment that
culture was in with like indierock, like post-Nirvana indie
(11:57):
rock and lo-fi music and homerecorded music got like this
giant boost because suddenlypeople were interested in more
left of center artists and youdidn't have to be perfect, you
didn't have to be really slick,so it's just like who I was and
what the world was where it was.
It was like the right moment.
It could easily had, had thisbeen a hundred years earlier, um
(12:22):
, having attitude would not havebeen enough to start a music
career.
So I I feel very lucky in thatsense.
You know it's timing and yourdad helped you with that first
gig with noise addict is thatlike my dad was like really
helpful in general, like he tookus to when we opened for fugazi
(12:42):
.
He drove the van down.
Um, he, uh, he, yeah, he wasloving and he liked my passion
and my enthusiasm.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Um, so, yeah, he was how did you communicate that
passion to your dad, like, howdid he see that passion in you,
that music?
Was it like I?
I gotta help ben, you know, getout well, mainly just because
form or whatever.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
No, it was mainly just because I was doing it,
like he saw me like I was goingto the post office and mailing
demos and trying to book gigsand you know it was also like
the era of the landline.
So he heard every.
I was following up and doing itand he was like I think I can
get you a gig at this waverlylibrary books, secondhand book
sale and sausage sizzle.
(13:25):
I was like amazing.
I mean, that was like a verysweet gesture yeah, and how did
like?
Speaker 1 (13:31):
did you expect that there would be somebody there
that was kind of like scopingthings out and like was that a
complete surprise?
Like because then after thatyou would, you'd hooked on with
sonic youth to go in and openyeah, well, that was all through
the same guy.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
This guy, steve pad um, who had been given my tape
because I'd sent it intowaterfront records and he was
about to start a co-venture,okay with um, with uh, with
another guy, ste Stephen, atWaterfront.
So he brought bands out andeverything.
So I think I'd send it to themand obviously what you do is you
(14:07):
tell them where you'll beplaying next.
And we had a gig and they senthim.
So no, it was a surprisebecause literally it was all
seventh graders, it was just ourfriends sitting in a row, and
then this one dude in his 20s,his hips, the dude right, yeah,
um, artists have been telling methat because I ask, like, when
did you know that something washappening, you know, in your
(14:30):
career?
Speaker 1 (14:31):
and they always say, well, I didn't have to invite
people to show anymore, theywould just come, you know.
But before that, it was all youknow, I had to, like, get my
friends and convince them tocome down with the show and fill
up a bit of space.
Um, and that that wasoftentimes one of their first
kind of wow, I didn't invite anyof these people in there,
(14:53):
you're listening.
You know like ready to listenwhat was another?
a tipping point, ben that, sothat one obviously propelled you
know what were some othermoments in your career that that
that changed the trajectory ofperhaps where you were going, I
mean it's hard for me toidentify because it was just one
(15:15):
to another, to another, toanother, but like I mean, I can
think of lots of kind ofcreative ones.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Like like hearing Jonathan Richman and realizing
that sorry, realizing that youcould play acoustic guitar and
it could sort of be punk, thatwas like a really big for me.
Um, uh, yeah, things like whenthe beastie boys, when they had
grand royal starting and theywanted to put out my music, um,
(15:49):
when liz fair's record came out,exiling guy bill, that's what
led me to doing grandpa woodwith brad wood, so, and then
just tons of these kind ofthings like.
Another one was sort of likewhen I was about 19, I'd
finished high school and Ithought I was going to make
breathing tornadoes in,basically, my school holidays
(16:10):
and then go to uni and it justdidn't come together because I
was trying to do something a bitmore ambitious and it was just
getting delayed.
You know how things do and Iremember I called my mom.
I was feeling like really badbecause they'd been so
supportive and I was going to goto university and I just said,
oh, I don't know if I'm going toget the record done in time the
label wants me to do it, youknow, in April, not in December
(16:31):
or whatever.
And my mom said university willalways be there.
Just follow the opportunities.
And it was like one of the mostgenerous things that my parents
ever did for me was just giveme permission like help, take,
absolve me of any guilt infollowing my dreams.
So those were.
Yeah, that was a big one.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
So, ben, a new record .
Just you know, you just droppeda new record and you kind of
went back to the old old schoola little bit in the sense of
recording and keeping it verylike, kind of you know, back to
its roots or your roots as anartist.
How did those songs cometogether?
(17:11):
And were those songs that justall happened in one shot, or had
those been kind of a?
You grabbed them from varioustimes throughout your career and
then yeah like how did thatrecord come to be?
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Well, I wrote them over the course of a year or 18
months or something.
But what I generally find is Istart writing and like themes
and cohesive ties start becomingapparent and I think I was just
.
It's so funny like the furtherwe get from the 90s, like you
start seeing new generations ofkids who have infatuations with
(17:47):
it.
You know, like all those kidsdoing that fit check thing on
TikTok to the Pavement song,it's just like it's amazing.
Like it's amazing watching Pavepavement become the
establishment in a way.
You know, but I think it'sgiven.
I spent a lot of my time mytwenties like running from indie
(18:10):
rock in a lot of ways, becauseI felt like it was really.
It was just sort of like siloed, like you could and couldn't do
, and I think because thegeneration before me, like the
pavements and separdos and sonicyouth, like they came through
hardcore, so their like sense oflike what was right and wrong
about art, it was very strict,you know, whereas I in a way
(18:35):
have more in common with likethe next, with like the
streaming generation, who justsaw it all as kind of fodder for
my own curiosity and creativity.
Um, so I was curious aboutthings that now like there's no
selling out anymore anyway, andthere is no like niches and
subcultures, like they all justmerge and everything but like
(18:57):
when I had mandy moore sing onripe, that was just sort of like
people were looking at me likewhat isn't this an indie rock,
right, like.
So I spent a lot of time likerunning from um, having like too
strict a definition of what wasokay and what wasn't.
Um, and now that more time haspassed, the good that I got
(19:17):
through coming up through indierock in the early 90s, Like it's
just so crystal clear to me andthe parts of that that I want
to carry with me every day.
And that's not all of it, youknow, and that's why, like on
the record in Less Control, Isay you know, I still love the
old heads because they've stillgot soul, but when they get
stuck in the past it leaves mecold Because, like, I really do
(19:38):
appreciate what bonds me to thatgeneration but I also want to
keep pushing forward.
So just sort of all I was.
Just this is what I wasinterested in and that's what I
was writing about and how?
Speaker 1 (19:51):
how is the juggernaut of the music industry, like
with this release that you'veput out, like, I mean, you've
flowed through so many decadesof you know, you know, creating
an album, releasing it, touringsingles has it changed over time
?
Do you think, like, kind ofwith the with your eye on the
(20:11):
record that you've just put out?
Speaker 2 (20:13):
yeah, I mean the industry has changed immensely.
I mean I think I guess cause I'msort of like a good student,
like ultimately, like in mypersonality makeup that when
Noise Addict made our firstdemos, I found like an industry
advice instructions in the backof like our village voice type
thing in Sydney and it told youwhat to do with your demo and
(20:34):
how to get it to labels and whatyou should put in the pack.
And I just followed theinstructions and I've always
felt like that's no different tolike learning how to do TikTok
or learning how the streamingalgorithm works, Like I've
always been open to going okay,what are the rules of the game?
And if I want to get my workacross, I've got to learn how
they work and I've got to dothem to some extent.
(20:55):
So that core principle hasn'treally changed to some extent.
So that core principle hasn'treally changed.
I'm still looking at thelandscape going how can I engage
with this in a way that allowsme to reach out but also
preserves the inherent nature ofwhatever it is that I've made
or who I am?
Speaker 1 (21:17):
So cool and kind of like you've had a bit of
distance from, from the recordthat you've just put out.
How do you, how do you feelabout it, how do you, how do you
look at it?
Speaker 2 (21:28):
And you know, now that you have this artifact that
you created, I feel good CauseI'm also like now that I'm doing
I've been doing so many showsand I've got this great band
together and I'm doing lots ofsolo shows too but also band
shows and I'm just realizinglike the architecture of like a
live indie rock band like guitar, bass, drums, keyboard
(21:50):
hopefully two guitars at somepoint, if we can get the budgets
up a little bit, you know butbasically like all this other
stuff that like tracks andvisuals, like they're all great
and they're fine and everyoneuses them.
But I want to do this.
I just want to have like agreat touring indie rock band
with great harmonies and greatguitar sounds.
And you know the simplicity ofthat.
(22:10):
And I think a lot of what I wasexploring by having that
amazing rhythm section on thatalbum was getting back to songs
that can stand up with just thatmore just basic, you know,
aesthetic or that sort ofstructure.
I'm probably now I'm in a vibefor some doing some home
(22:31):
recording.
One of the things I'm interestedin is that when radio was the
dominant means of sharing music,it was actually very
gentrifying to production and tosong structure because it all
had to sort of sound the sameLike.
(22:51):
I always remember that ideadon't touch your dial.
The goal of radio programmingis just to give you this ongoing
experience that you leave on inthe background Right, whereas
with streaming, I think, likethe algorithm works best if it
(23:12):
encourages people to hit, like,on a song that comes up in the
algorithm.
So where radio said don't touchthat dial, I think streaming
wants you to touch that dial,you know, and they want you to
explore and go Ooh, I like that,ooh, I like that.
So, in a way, things that jumpout um have a better chance than
they did 20 years ago, where itfelt like things that fitted in
(23:34):
.
So I'm actually feeling quitebrave with, like production
choices and subject matter andstuff, because I think the
things that separate you now areactually more of a competitive
advantage.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
Interesting, interesting, well, I mean, it's
such a great album.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
Thank you, I've been enjoying it.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
It has that heart and like that hunch to it and
there's still some subtle songlike delicate songs, but like um
.
I really loved watching kind ofyou do um, I think it was pop
queen with, with your guys thatyou recorded with just to kind
of relive, um, and it reallylike it, like wow, like it
(24:17):
brought back all that, thatflood of feeling from Grandpa
Wood.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
It's so weird that, like I'm like married to these
songs.
Now I realize like whenever Iwrite a song, whenever I write
an album, release an album,probably two songs or three
songs from it are going tobecome part of this body of work
that I will continue to play.
You know, you never can tellexactly which ones.
(24:43):
They are, the ones that havestaying power, but I do realize
that it's this mix betweenhaving a light touch but also
realizing you're building thisbody of work and they're going
to stick around, they're goingto chase you.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
Which is amazing, right?
Because it's like you have thisarchive now of and I mean you
know it's on a record on a tape,on a cd, whatever.
I mean it just lives well, itlives in my heart.
I'll tell you that um thank youreally cool.
So, ben, just to kind of as wekind of wrap things up here what
, what, what is this?
The rest of this year look likein and into beyond with your
(25:21):
music.
Um, are you?
well, there's lots of umrecording I imagine, and uh
ideas popping out and songs yeah, every day and stuff I've got.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
You know, I've got lots of single.
Like I have a single actuallycoming out at the end of this
week, just a song I recordedwith my friend, this solo artist
, um johanna samuels, in la.
We wrote a song called SunsetMarquee, so we're putting that
out this weekend.
I've developed this kidsanimated musical TV show that
I'm going to Taiwan, to theAsian Animation Summit to pitch
(25:52):
in November.
We're still building ourpodcasts, we're developing a lot
.
We're gearing up for next year,my wife's memoir coming out, so
lots of things around that.
And, yeah, I'm going to startmaking a record at some point.
I'm just sort of letting thecreativity bubble up, like it
usually hits a point where, likeI can't not pick up my guitar
(26:14):
and write a song and I'm justlike I can feel that on its way.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Amazing, amazing.
Well, I really want to thankyou again, ben, for carving a
little window of your time.
I mean, I love the creativitythat you're talking about and
that you're dabbling in multipleareas.
Like creativity has no silos,totally, it must be free, and
you're a beautiful model of thatcreative freedom.
(26:39):
Thanks mate Cheers free andyou're a beautiful model of that
creative.
Thanks, mate.
So I really appreciate yourtime and good luck with with
what's to come and we'lldefinitely be following and I
hope, as the next record comesout, you might want to come back
on and we'll continue thisconversation.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
Let's do it.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
Thanks so much and tell my friends.
So yeah, I've been kind of down, but when I get into town Maybe
you could come round.
Let's make it good again, don'tyou want to make it good again?
(27:35):
Baby, I'm half asleep, halfawake.
I've got a heart that can breakA vibe I want to create.
Awake, I've got a heart thatcan break.
I've had but want to create,but I've been feeling so strange
, can't stop reading the signs.
But if I run out of time withall this love in my mind, maybe
I'm ready to change.
Oh yeah, I'm ready to change.
(28:01):
Baby, I really really want to bePositive energy, but living in
reality Is getting kind of heavy.
I can see it right there infront of me.
Give me a hint of your positiveenergy, your positive energy,
(28:34):
thank you.
I guess they're in the way outof all the sadness around.
Just keep my feet on the groundand do it all with a smile.
Yeah, we can do it all with asmile.
Baby, tell me, don't you wannabe Positive energy Living in
(29:01):
reality?
You know it ain't easy, can'tyou see it's love and other
enemies Take a hit on mypositive energy.
I really, really want to bePositive energy.
Living in reality it's gettingkind of heavy.
I can see it right there infront of me.
(29:23):
Give me a hint of your positiveenergy, your positive energy,
cause I'ma never know why.
I guess I know I could cry.
Cause I'm a never know why.
I guess I know I could cry.
I guess I'm a never know why.
I guess I know I could cry.
(29:45):
I guess I'm a never know why.
I guess I know I could cry.
I get so quiet and I don't eventell my friends I really,
really wanna to be positiveenergy.
Living in reality is gettingkind of heavy.
(30:07):
I can see it right there infront of me.
Give me a hit of your positiveenergy.
Come on, give it all to me,positive energy, because living
in reality Is getting out ofhand.
Can't you see?
It's changing up our chemistry,getting closer to something
(30:27):
that we want to be.
I can see it right there infront of me.
Give me a hint of your positiveenergy, your positive energy.
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