December 17, 2024 • 42 mins
Lucas Mayo, affectionately known as Pickle Darling, shares the musical journey that took him from strumming a ukulele in his primary school days to becoming a defining voice in the indie pop scene. We explore the powerful impact of DIY ethos, drawing inspiration from artists like Dylan of Bedbug, and how these influences have shaped his distinctive sound. Lucas offers a candid glimpse into his time at music school, where songwriting became his refuge, and discusses the collaborative spirit that fuels his projects.
Continuing our conversation, Lucas reveals the art of embracing limitations to craft authentic music from his home studio. We dissect the evolution between his albums, "Cosmonaut" and "Laundromat," highlighting a shift towards a spontaneous, raw style that captures the essence of daily inspiration. Lucas offers a peek into his latest project, where experimental recording techniques take center stage, showing his relentless dedication to evolving his sound. Our discussion also reflects on the synergy between songwriting and production, underscored by his experiences with the legendary band The Bats, which transitioned him from studio work to vibrant live performances.
Performing live, Lucas finds a unique connection with audiences, from intimate solo shows to energetic band settings. He shares his admiration for Billy Bragg, whose simple yet impactful performances inspire Lucas's own aspirations. With exciting future projects on the horizon, including an upcoming album and a video game soundtrack, Lucas promises to push the boundaries of his creativity while keeping accessibility at the forefront. As we conclude, we celebrate the vibrant community that surrounds the podcast, leaving listeners eager for the new chapters yet to unfold.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
And if you think it feels like work, I'm willing to
put the work in.
Yes, I'm willing to put thework in, and if you need a
reminder, I'm willing to remindyou that.
(00:24):
I'm willing to remind you thatI'm willing to put the work in.
I'm willing to put the work in,that I'm willing to put the
work in.
I'm willing to put the work in.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Alright, here we go.
Hey everyone, another episodeof your Will podcast.
I'm reaching far.
I actually woke him up out ofhis bed, out of his beautiful
slumber, because I was just soexcited and it was my mistake.
I'm sorry, lucas, because I waslike 2 o'clock, 2 o'clock,
(01:03):
can't wait.
And then I realized it was 3o'clock and like early your time
, so I have pickle darling.
Uh, lucas, here with us fromfrom his, his moniker, his band,
his music.
Um, coming all the way in fromchrist church, new zealand.
Um, lucas, you're the first newnew zealandite Zealander.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
How do you say it?
New, zealander, new?
Zealander?
Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
I thought that's New, zealander, that's good, yeah,
that makes sense to me.
So first time that we'vereached into your country to
discover some of the music andbeen a long-time listener I mean
, pickle Darling makes thesebeautiful indie pop gems uh,
very diy, uh, but greatcollaborators you work with.
(01:51):
And you know my first questionactually I discovered this by
listening back to your that youhave a relationship with bedbug,
with dylan from bedbug yeah,cool how did that come to be?
If you're well sort of.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
I don't know if I'd call it a relationship, I guess
so I mean I'm a fan, yeah yeah,I'm, I was um.
So I think when I first, when Iwas kind of first um, before I
was releasing music, I was a bigfan of, like I would just go
through band camp and discover alot of, like you know, lo-fi
(02:26):
stuff, yeah, and a lot of theartists that I was like a big
fan of also.
You know, I eventually kind ofbecame friends with them just
through the internet, cause Iwas following the label Z tapes
Well, it's actually meant to bepronounced as Z tapes, but it
sounds wrong.
Yeah, and Dead Bug was one ofthem and I was such a big fan of
(02:51):
their first album and it waslike it was kind of one of those
albums that's like I mean, Ilove all their albums,
particularly the second album.
The second album's amazing.
But yeah, I feel like it's coolwhen you hear something that is
like it feels like oh okay, thisis how I can participate in
(03:14):
this as well.
It kind of gives you permissionto Just the way it's recorded,
how it's so scrappy but alsothere's so much song craft in
there and it's it's so scrappybut also there's so much song
craft in there and it it's notlike a.
You couldn't hear lots ofexpensive gear or expensive
studio um, but it has.
But it's also just as amazing,sounding as like an animal
(03:36):
collective album.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
You know, it's just yeah, for sure, I mean.
I I feel um a lineage betweenyou know, dylan, and and what
you're doing as well.
There's this commonality, or atipping of the cap to one
another in your song crafting.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
Yeah, I definitely see myself as still like they're
kind of still one of thoseartists that I'm like um, I'm
still kind of chasing what theydo a little bit like yeah, but
you've been doing this for awhile now.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
I guess, like this is you.
You had laundromat that cameout in 2023, but you have other
three, other four other full,full records.
Really, I mean, yeah, um, underyour belt.
Um, maybe before we dive intothe records, I'd love to kind of
ask you about how, how you cameinto starting to song, right
(04:31):
and um, you know where youpicked up your first instrument
and like how did it all kind ofstart clicking for you?
Where, where music had to be apart of your daily functionings
in this world of ours?
Speaker 3 (04:46):
I think it was, I guess in primary school.
I was like it was kind ofembarrassing.
I was playing ukulele a lot inprimary school when I was way
too old to be like getting ridof the ukulele and I'd be
playing like you know, learninglike Smells Like Teen Spirit and
like Steward of Heaven andSweet Child Of Mine on the
ukulele.
(05:06):
I was like, yeah, I want to belike that.
And then eventually I got intoguitar and so I guess tried to
play the same songs.
But I think eventually I got tothe point where I was like I
just I don't know you kind ofjust get bored of just trying to
learn songs or you just learnthe parts of songs that you like
(05:28):
and you're just more interestedin writing your own songs.
So there's not many songs thatI can actually play right
through.
If I went on stage and peoplewere like requesting like I
don't know Wonderwall, Iprobably couldn't play it.
I don't know what to thinkabout.
Couldn't play it.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
But I was like I could write songs and then like,
yeah, I go, something like that, yeah yeah, um, totally,
totally.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
But yeah, I think, and even when I was like
studying music, because I wentto um music school it's called
the jazz school, but I didn'tstudy jazz, um, and three years
of that and it was like I feltso out of place, I mean I still
I I have fond experiences therebecause, like, to be honest, the
(06:14):
tutors were all pretty greatand all the people were great,
um, but I was just like, oh, I'mclearly like maybe kind of the
wrong person, like I just, Idon't know, I'm just so like
shit at my instrument and I wasalso never that interested in
like getting good at myinstrument.
I just wanted to write songsand just like make my own, like
(06:36):
lo-fi shit.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Yeah, yeah, um was it a?
Was it a songwriting coursethat?
I think I read that air I Iheard um, maybe on another
podcast.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
I said so there was, um, there's the jazz course, and
then there's the pop course,and then that was the
songwriting course, okay, whichwas like so fucking garbage.
So it'd be like you'd have awhole class, and then I mean I,
the chute is a super nice guy.
(07:08):
I don't want to, I'm not gonna,I shouldn't rip people out,
he's never gonna hear this.
He's a super nice guy, but he'sjust seemed real out of it,
right, um, and was like we'dhave a whole class.
So if you end a line with moon,you can, you know, have a word
that rhymes with moon.
(07:29):
The end of the next line, whatare some words that rhyme with
moon?
Sure, I don't know.
It was like oh, this isn't,this isn't how I write songs.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
So I wanted to see, though did that inform your
songwriting?
It seems like it, like were youalready underway of like in the
processes of writing your ownsongs when you attended, when
you started attending that thatpop yeah, section of definitely.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
I was like, honestly, with that part of it, I don't
know.
I just thought you can't reallyteach a lot of that stuff.
You have to just like find yourown taste.
Yeah, and I think the best wayto learn is always by like just
diving deep into music and beinga music fan and listening to
lots of music and just figuringout why you like the things you
(08:19):
like and then almost just tryingto replicate that for a bit
until you figure out how to just, you know, really do it for
yourself.
And there's like, there's wayspeople can maybe help you and
guide you, but I don't know, youreally just have to find your
own taste and just likeunderstand why you like the
(08:39):
music you like.
I think that's just, I don'tknow.
Just being a music fan isalways, I think, so much more
important than like a formaleducation, right?
Speaker 2 (08:50):
right, you know, and did you have an idea of the
aesthetic that you wanted tocreate with Pickle Darling Like,
was it, or did you?
Stumble upon it or did you likekind of create a persona or how
you wanted the songs to I thinkI noticed I I always liked, um,
(09:11):
I don't know how to describe it.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
I always liked music that I thought was like pretty.
That was always a thing.
When I was young I was likenever, I don't know, I was never
into, like you know, a lot ofthe cool.
I was never into, like you know, a lot of the cool bands.
I was never into like SonicYouth or anything you know I was
, I like, always preferred, likeI don't know, I love all that
like early 2000s, like soft rock, like you know, like Travis and
(09:35):
Coldplay and stuff you know,just like, yeah, very melodic
and um, well, I was super intothe beatles growing up and like
sparkle horse and syphianstevens and joanna newsom and
that sort of like.
Oh, it's all about likeintricate melodies and lots of
like, lots of details.
It's just kind of like earcandy.
(09:57):
That was always what, what I wasinto and I was never that into
like electric guitars or ornoise or I don't know um, so I
think that was always somethingthat, um, I was always I don't
know, always kind of informed.
My music and I think in termsof like my sound, that kind of
(10:20):
just came out of likelimitations.
I was always a big fan of likeokay, like uh, just kind of
making use of what I have andseeing how good I can make that,
as opposed to just trying tobuy more expensive gear or
waiting to like have access to astudio.
And it's also, when you haveaccess to a studio or something,
it's like you're not in fullcontrol of it.
(10:41):
You can't really it's hard tomake your own it's hard to make
everything sound like you're notin full control of it.
You can't really.
It's hard to make your own.
It's hard to make everythingsound like you.
Um, so that was always, I don'tknow.
So I I still just use one micand I just use logic pro to
record everything.
Um, and you've always had ahome studio, I imagine, like is
that where you?
record most of your your songsat home or the demos yeah, at
(11:05):
home, and then you bring them tothe studio no, I've, I never
use a studio, I think I thinkfor me a studio would be such a
struggle because it's so muchabout, like, the specific
details that when I'm recording,I know instantly if I've made a
mistake or have to redosomething and I just I can just
quickly hit the space bar, pressenter, start again.
(11:27):
I don't have to likecommunicate to someone else, or
if I have an idea, I can justrecord instantly, um, and you
know, sit in my room for, likeyou know, seven hours and not
feel like I'm wasting someone'stime.
Yeah, interesting.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
And did?
Speaker 2 (11:43):
you did your records like between like.
Again, I was, I was, I was, youknow, just reading up on some
of the reviews and stuff thathad been put out there and it
was saying that, cosmonaut, your, your record, that, uh, that
you put out in 2021 was muchmore.
You wanted that more meticulous, and then it shifted with this
(12:06):
latest record to being much more.
I think you said a quote fromyou was let's have more
beautiful nothing happeningwithin.
And you were wanting it to bemore authentic and less, you
know, knob turning.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Is that a?
Speaker 2 (12:25):
difference that you looked at when you were, when
you record the differencebetween those two records that
you put out.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
Yeah, I think with with Cosmonaut, I was really
thinking a lot about albums thatfeel like albums, you know,
like I don't know, like the likeYankee Hotel, foxtrot, or like
a Microphones album, where it'slike it's not necessarily about
the individual songs but, youknow, there's more space for
(12:52):
like long I don't know long kindof passages that go somewhere,
or, yeah, I don't know, thatalbum still feels like a really
cohesive kind of journey,whereas with Laundromat it was a
lot about like more about mydaily practice is like what
(13:13):
music is to me, and it was aboutlike every, every day or as
much as I could, just trying towrite songs for myself, not
necessarily about anything, butit's just almost like a
meditation for myself.
Um, and I tried to keepeverything on laundromat like as
almost like the first instincts, if that makes sense where I
(13:37):
wanted everything to feel asdemo-y as possible, where it's
like, okay, it's just chords,melody, not much else.
There's no, like no crazyproduction, it's just like
almost the bare minimum and justkind of the seed of the spark
of an idea and trying to notyeah, not stamp that out.
So that's why the songs areprobably yeah, the songs are a
(13:58):
lot shorter and they're, I think, more like I was thinking a lot
about like writing really justreally efficient kind of
economic songs.
So, no, no wasted time, um,yeah, no wasted notes, no wasted
words, um and, yeah, did thattake longer to record?
Speaker 2 (14:18):
um, like the one where you know the, the, the
first one that you were playingaround with Cosmonaut much more,
and then, as you were saying,lodgemat was much more of a you
know letting happen what happens.
Which one did you find yourelated to more and has that
(14:39):
informed perhaps your futuresongs and records that you're
probably working on now or havelike did it, did it?
Change the way you processsongs and how you approach
writing them.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
I think there's always something I kind of pick
up on the way, but each album Ifeel like is always like a
reaction to the last album, Likeeverything I found frustrating,
but the last album.
So then I've just kind offinished a new album and it's
almost the opposite oflaundromat, where I was like
tired of songs.
I was like I hate the idea ofwriting songs.
(15:14):
Now I just want to likeactually make an album that's
almost like about recording andlike what I can do with
recording.
Um, I don't know.
So there's lots of like.
The songs are more kind ofassembled from like lots of bits
of recording and the guitarparts are all like cut up and
(15:37):
assembled and I don't know.
I really wanted to make analbum that felt like it was
about, I don't know, just aboutthe act of recording and
production and and just yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
So that's.
That's the next that too.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
I mean you.
I think you took a course, or?
Speaker 3 (15:55):
yeah.
So I did one year of audioengineering right after jazz
school and I had a kind ofsimilar approach.
I'm like I wouldn't know.
I still wouldn't know how tooperate a shooter, but I just I
went into that course just beinglike I want to get what I need
to get to make my own music andthen I'm going to drop out.
That was almost always myapproach from the start.
(16:17):
Um, and that was one of thetutors he was.
He was awesome because it wasso refreshing to have a tutor be
like okay, like I can tell youhow I would do things or my
personal approach to recordingor or production, but it's a
creative thing, so I can'tactually tell you what's right
(16:37):
or wrong.
You have to like.
If you like it, that's right,which is like crazy to hear a
tutor tell you that you knowyeah, yeah because he would.
That was always his how he wouldcritique your work.
It was always like I can onlytell you what my personal taste
is, but I'm not going to tellyou that this is the wrong way
to do it, which I feel.
(16:58):
I feel like I needed to hearyou know.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Yeah, yeah, kind of putting a mirror up and saying,
well, you, you tell me like,yeah, I think it.
It sounds like it pushes thatreflection even further of
yourself and, through thatprocess, like what were the
greatest tips and tricks orlessons that you brought out
from and brought into your musicthat were really valuable to
(17:25):
you.
Once you know you had left, youknow you'd finished the course,
you.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
Once you know you had left, you know you'd finish the
course.
I think it's a lot about likefor me in terms of practical
things, about production.
I think so much of like um the.
The problems that you face inproduction and mixing are
actually songwriting andarrangement.
Songwriting and arrangementissues, if that makes sense.
(17:55):
So, like, often, what happens,um, is that like I don't know
you, maybe people go into studioand record a whole bunch of
stuff and it's like oh, how do Iget this sounding good?
A lot of it's just asongwriting issue where it's
like you have to, because,because I record and produce my
own stuff, whenever I'm writingor arranging a song, I'm writing
it with the production in mind,like I'm writing parts being
like this is going to be in theright speaker, this is going to
(18:18):
be like it's really low in theleft, so I don't have things
kind of just like filling up thesame space or tripping over
themselves, like every part iskind of made with the final
recording in mind.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
If it makes sense, yeah yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
So I don't know, just cutting lots of stuff out and
making space while you'rearranging a song, like I feel
like was something I it seemstricky, though, to like.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Nobody's ever explained it like that, like
because I often ask like for fordiy artists.
Like you have two hats you'rewearing right, you have your
artist hat, and then you havethe whole production hat that
you're wearing as well and howdo you fuse those?
But nobody's ever talked abouthow they do them simultaneously,
like you were describing, whichI find really fascinating.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
Yeah, and I think if you have an okay ear and you
know what you like, you don'treally need fancy gear at all.
Okay ear and you know what youlike, you don't really need
fancy gear at all.
You can.
There are great sounding albumsmade with fancy, fancy gear,
but also great sounding albumsthat are made without fancy gear
, because they know their gearand they know how to use it and
how to make something I don'tknow, like if it's a shitty
(19:24):
microphone like they, they knowhow that, how it sounds, what it
like, how it records well, likehow to mix it in a way that
fits you know.
That makes a cohesive piece ofkind of sound world.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
I guess that's interesting, like kind of
getting to know your gear andwhat it does and then what you
need to do to get the sound outof it that you're looking for
yeah, or if you have like, ifyou don't have fancy gear, like
you can still make somethingthat sounds energetic.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
It's like oh, that's often the best way to like
approach it.
Like like the guided by voicesalbums sound amazing and they,
because they sound so like, theysound like someone's just found
them at the bottom of I don'tknow like buried underground and
it's just like exploding withenergy Totally.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
You know, yeah.
Yeah and Lucas, what?
What were the tipping points inyour musical journey so far,
like, what were some moments intime where you felt like you,
you, you went up the next stepor went to the next level with
your music?
What were some of those eventsor occurrences that kind of
(20:35):
excited you and said, okay, I'mnot flatlining, I see the steps.
I see how it's progressing.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
I think I guess an early one would be.
I think, hmm, I guess an earlyone would be when the the bets
took me on tour Cause that waskind of my first tour, my first
real tour Um, and I was the uhthe opening band for their like
(21:08):
South Island shows we took.
So we did four shows with themand the second show we'd ever
really played as a band togetherwas in a huge theater with 800
people.
I was so nervous.
Yeah, I can imagine it was veryscary, but I don't know.
I think because when I firststarted Pukoran, I never had the
(21:30):
intention of playing live it.
I just, it just became a thingbecause people keep asking me
like, oh, you should play a show, you should open for us, and so
I guess I should assemble aband.
Um, yeah, and eventually, howdid the best find you?
like how was it through their ztapes at the time, or was it me,
(21:50):
I'm not, I'm not sure, but Ithink because New Zealand is so
small, like if you're makingmusic and you're I don't know
making a better name foryourself, the best eventually
find you.
I think also because they'resuch a um, they're such music
fans and there's such aproactive band and helping out
other, like they're such achampion of New Zealand bands
(22:14):
and they will always reach outand encourage you and like I
don't know, they're really cool,they really help people out in
like really practical ways aswell, like they're always yeah.
So there's that and there'salso I mean, I guess the biggest
one is probably signing tofather daughter records, which
(22:36):
was like great, great label.
I don't know that's, that's,that's kind of I don't know,
it's kind of crazy.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
It's always kind of like in the back of mind a bit
of a dream to sign to like aninternational label.
Um, and was that relationshipright from the get-go a positive
?
One for you and like is that akind of label that respects your
um artistic freedom and likethey don't put too many
(23:01):
parameters in your way.
Speaker 3 (23:04):
Yeah, no, they put like no parameters in a way and,
um, yeah, I feel like, becausethey're it's, it's, you know,
it's basically two people and Iwas like, oh, they're just very
hard working and they're justlike nice people and we've just
become friends, you know.
So now, like I, I want to dowell for them, if that makes
(23:26):
sense, because I can see howhard that worked for me and I'm
like, I'm like I feel bad thatI'm costing them so much money.
I'm like, okay, I want to tryand make this money for you.
You know well, I'm sure in turn.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
You definitely help.
You know their label out aswell um, we'll see is is um
laundromat that you're first onum yeah okay, unfollowed which
is it's weird, because that wasthe album that I made with like
(23:58):
no audience.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
That was like laundromat I made is like this
is my giving up album, this ismy album that I'm like okay, I
don't care about climbing themusic career ladder, I just need
to figure out what music is tome and like why I make music
just for myself and and the aimI guess I was just gonna like
(24:22):
kind of I don't know, just dumpit on the internet or something
or make my own records, or I was, I was, I'm always going to
make records for my whole life,whether there's a label involved
or not, you know, um, but it'shappy, I mean it's.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
It's nice to have the support, though, um yeah, so I
I pretty much finished the albumwhen they reached out to me and
yeah, good for you, man, goodfor you, and I just I'm curious
about that first series of showsthat you did, like what was
your setup?
Because I mean diy artists, Imean you do everything right,
(25:01):
and then to translate that to agroup of people sitting and
standing in front of you, it'squite sometimes it can be quite
challenging what, how did, howdid you translate the record
stuff to a live performance?
Speaker 3 (25:15):
it's, it's hard but it's, it's very fun.
But, um, just a lot of problemsolving and a lot of like
because there's no set defaultsounds we can fall back on,
because it's not like a rockband with his bass, electric
guitar, drums.
It's like, okay, the firstiteration of the live band there
were five people, no drums.
(25:37):
It was like drum machine me onacoustic guitar, someone else
also on acoustic guitar, oh,there was someone on bass and
someone on like glockenspiel,and and yeah, and and yeah.
And then the second version itwas like yeah, well, so it's
(25:58):
basically when there's, whenthere's a full band, it's just
drum machine, keyboards, guitar,yeah, it's just like no bass,
no bass for electric guitars.
So sound people other than thefact that I sing really quietly,
sound guys that it shows loveus.
(26:20):
Because there's no drums andamps on stage.
Everything is the eye controleasily what's going on, yeah,
yeah, that's cool yeah and did.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Did playing live inform your music or or change
it a little bit?
Like, did you start thinkingabout if I was playing this live
?
You know, like before you weresaying, when I, when I'm first
creating a song, I think of thetwo, like the production side
and what I'm writing and theartistic side did.
Did the live stuff, playinglive start to seep in there as
(26:54):
well as you were as?
Speaker 3 (26:57):
you continue to write songs, Not not really, to be
honest, because I felt when Iplay live it's not I don't know.
For a long time I always feltlike a compromise, if that makes
sense, whereas I think when Istarted I never felt like a real
musician for a long timebecause I hadn't grown up
playing gigs and I didn't feellike I could get up on stage
(27:21):
with a guitar and a mic and justput on a show by myself.
So I think over the last coupleof years that was something
that I really worked on.
I was like, okay, I want to,and I did.
I actually did like a couple ofopen mic nights and that was
just like harrowing Um, whereas,okay, I want to see if I can
just like get on stage with justan acoustic guitar and a mic
(27:45):
and my songs and like put on ashow.
How did you feel thoseexperiences went?
Yeah, I think the open micnight went pretty terrible, but
because right after me there wasthis.
Right after me and right beforeme there were these like hard
out, like fusion jazz rock bandsthat were all like super
(28:07):
musiciany, um, it was crazynight, um.
And there's like these likechild prodigies, it's like.
I think right after me it waslike it looked like they're all
like 12 and they're all justlike shredding.
I was like oh god what am I?
(28:29):
it was really insane.
Like you couldn't have made melook worse but it didn't deter
you like no, so I I've sincethen yeah then, when I was
opening for people and alsobecause it's so expensive to
take a band, you know where,right, when you're like playing
opening slots and stuff, I'vetaken a bit.
(28:50):
We, when we open for like um,we open for lucidacus and open
for what's for open for, are youopen for matchbox 20?
I was like, okay, I'll take aband for those.
I played an arena with matchbox20, no check, and it was insane
but I don't know.
(29:13):
Anyway, with with playing solo,I think that's where I've kind
of found my my thing as a liveperformer, because I was like,
oh man, I actually really loveplaying guitar and I love, I
like kind of grew to lovesinging and and just actually
(29:35):
like feeling the audiencelistening.
I love also like just listeningto the audience as well and
trying to I don't know, I justlove the kind of like almost
challenge of just trying toengage an audience and having
that conversation with them andum, bringing I don't know making
(29:56):
everyone be quiet and listenreally closely.
Yeah, I kind of grew to lovethat and I love.
I love those sorts of shows,like really quiet shows, um, so,
yeah, because I'm on this tour,fitting so nicely with with
that kind of environment um andyeah, and it kind of makes me
feel more like a songwriter yeah, I was like oh yeah, actually
(30:17):
like, and then I feel likethat's actually what's informed
my music.
Now it's like um is because nowI'm working on it, I've been
writing a whole bunch of songsover the last few months that
I'm like oh, these are songsthat I'm just writing for voice
and guitar, um, and yeah, Idon't know.
(30:38):
I just I love, yeah, justpresenting the song itself.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Yeah, and are you finding that you're?
You're feeling more confidentwith your delivery and where
you're putting your vocals inthe songs.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
I think so.
Do you mean in terms ofrecording or playing live?
Speaker 2 (30:59):
In live performances, Because you were saying that
when you first started you werevery quiet in how you delivered.
Has that changed a little bit?
Speaker 3 (31:10):
in in how you delivered.
Has that changed a little bit,the more I think I still sing.
I sing more confidently, but Istill sing very quietly.
But I, because I'm playingguitar, it's like I can just
bring everything down right.
I don't know.
I can sing quietly and I canthen play quieter.
Yeah, like I can be moredynamic and be quieter with
intention, like Like there'ssome songs where I'll like
whisper a bit of it and justhearing, I don't know.
(31:32):
Just being in a room wherethere's like 120 people and
everyone's just being reallyquiet Cause they, they're trying
to hear it, it's like a reallycool.
Yeah, that's wicked, I don'tknow, it's just a really cool
energy in the room.
That I don't know.
And you're kind of like thepuppeteer, kind of like yeah,
(31:53):
like you have a sense when youhave them like when they're, I
think so, zoned into what you'resinging playing, whereas when
you're playing with a full bandit's hard.
You, I feel like I'm thinking somuch about what's going on that
it's hard to really beconscious of the energy in the
room.
When you're playing solo,you're, I feel like you're super
conscious of it, because I'veplayed shows where I'm like I'm
opening or playing an event orsomething and it's like
(32:14):
everyone's just chatting thewhole way and I'm like, well,
okay, I'm just gonna play thesongs, and you're like I, I have
no one.
It's, that's annoying.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
Yeah, um, because there is an intimacy there,
right that you're trying to,yeah, and then you got a bunch
of jackasses, yeah, or whatever.
You know, it's just like dudes.
Come on um yeah, respect so,listeners, if you're at a show,
listen to the music and talk,yeah, and you'll have during
(32:44):
you'll have a better nightthat's right, exactly, exactly I
wanted to just ask too, uh,lucas, about like I really
enjoyed the milkman of humankindness.
The cover you did of billybragg, oh yeah, um, how did you
decide upon covering that song?
Speaker 3 (33:01):
I mean, I've always liked that song.
That's one of my.
The first billy bragg album isone of my all-time favorite
albums, just because of just howit sounds.
It's just guitar and vocals, uh, seven songs.
It's so short.
The album is like what?
13 minutes or something.
It's so short and every song isjust a banger.
(33:22):
Yeah, I don't know.
For me that's like just theperfect album.
Um, like, I would love to makean album that's just like seven
bangers, um, and then like somany people would cover too.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
I mean, you know like , yeah, you're so right in
saying that and I think everyone of those has been covered,
like 20 yeah, you know many,many times um and I saw him live
.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
That's when I got that.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
That tea towel yeah that it's not a poster, it's
actually a tea towel.
Okay, um, talking to the taxman about poetry, right?
Speaker 3 (33:56):
yeah, yeah, um, I saw him live.
I think it might have been lastyear and he performed for two
hours just himself on a guitarand that I thought that was so I
don't know.
That was so inspiring.
I was like, oh, you can't do it, you can, you can sell out a
whole theater.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
You know like 1500 people on stage like he's such a
show, yeah, like you can tellthat he's been doing this since
he was a teenager.
Um, yeah, once he has the crowdand they come to, you know,
they listen, you know, becausehe has like all this history and
records that he just seems likehe's in your living room, you
(34:36):
know, let's gather around thecampfire.
You know just saying, and I'lltell you some stories and we'll
talk about politics a bit andstuff like that yeah it's like
so you're just glued to him thewhole time um and it's hard to
do right.
I mean, I think his experienceand consistency um reveals that
(34:56):
quite a lot yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:59):
So I think I, when I like think about the future for
me, I'm like, okay, what is likemyself at my my peak?
I don't know what would my liveshow look like.
And I'm, oh yeah, we'd probablylook.
I'm like what's, what's?
What would a quiet version ofbilly brag be in a theater?
You know like, yeah, I don'tknow.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
I think it would be.
This is cool, pickle, darling.
It would, it would be.
It would be.
Well, lucas, this has been areally fine treat.
Thanks so much for acceptingthis invite.
Speaker 3 (35:36):
Oh, no, thanks for chatting.
I listen to those podcasts.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
Yeah, Cool.
Well, I mean, it's been apleasure Give us a little idea
like what's coming down the pipethat you can talk about and
that we could look forward to.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
Um from pickle darling um, so I have, I have an
album that's probably going tocome out next year.
Uh, it's just being mixed atthe moment.
Um, and then.
And then what else I'm doing?
The soundtrack for a gamecalled show fly, which is being
developed at the moment.
Wow, um, and yeah, I'm justwriting lots of songs and I
(36:15):
don't really have big goals.
I don't know, I just want tomake write lots of songs, record
lots of songs.
Awesome, that's a fine goal forme.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
I'll tell you I'm I'm excited that you have something
in the works for 2025.
Um, I think that you shouldcome back on and we can talk
about it and compare it to theother ones and how the evolution
has happened.
And if, if you were to give usa little sneak peek of what's
coming in 2025, what would youclose?
(36:45):
What would you most closelyrelate it to of what you've done
already?
Speaker 3 (36:50):
I think it's because each album is like a reaction
against the last one.
It's more, the songs are longer, they're more kind of chopped
up and maybe a bit less songy.
So it feels closer to cosmonaut, I think maybe, but yeah, I
don't know.
(37:10):
It's just more, I don't know.
For me it's quite experimental,but for everyone else it's
probably not.
It's probably not veryexperimental, but for me it just
feels like a change.
I really kind of challengedmyself and I spent months and
months on every song, likethere's nothing that I don't
know.
It was kind of a struggle tomake, to be honest, but because
(37:32):
I just kind of set myself, uh,myself, these kind of challenges
, so like, yeah, almost, if Iyeah, keep up the good work and
I mean keep writing.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
Um, we love your stuff and I'm speaking for more
than than just me.
I have tons of friends thatI've introduced you to them, and
they become avid listeners.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
Oh, amazing Thank you .
Speaker 2 (37:57):
You're doing something really special, and I
love the aesthetic of it, I lovethe sound of it, I love your
style.
So it seems to all be clickinghere, lucas.
So please carry on, and we, aslisteners, will follow along on
the journey.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
Thanks so much and you keep doing, you keep doing
your thing.
It's a great podcast.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
Thanks, man I appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (38:21):
You're a great interviewer.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
Well, thanks a lot, I appreciate it, and you have
yourself a good day.
I guess you're off to work soon.
Yeah, yeah, cool, well, enjoy,and we'll talk soon.
Speaker 3 (38:34):
Awesome Cheers.
Have a good day.
I recollect dreams about theworld fitting in my hand.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
History buried to my terrarium scale when I met with
the servant.
Part of the great experience.
Oh, can you Please give me theokay To leave and get by To get
(39:23):
lunch early.
I need a bite.
Oh, can you.
I need a bike.
A parking lot.
Let me try to swipe your card,pick a third to see if somebody
did it.
Third, third, push daisy.
(39:44):
Enter the middle of the field Onmy way to the strange beaches.
In the park there are somethings I whisper to the leaves
in the grass.
When they whisper back, I beginto see double.
(40:10):
When I get hurt, I sendintrusive thoughts to the stars.
Well, I'm not as pretty as Ilike.
(40:30):
No, I'm not really as I like.
No, I'm not as pretty as I like.
No, I'm not really as I like.
Before I go, now, promise meyou'll pick me up a souvenir Now
(40:59):
and, darling, I wanna catch.
The progress of the human race.
Now, disclosure, my fists aremade of feathers and they tip it
off.
The human race Now Disclosure,my fists are made of feathers
and they tip it out To.
I've broken Every promise Lendto me with my bare hands.
(41:23):
Well, I'm not Pretty as I like.
Well, I'm not pretty as I like.
Well, I'm not pretty as I like.
No, I'm not pretty as I like.
No, I'm not pretty as I like.
Guitar solo.
(41:43):
Thank you.
And if you think it feels like work, I'm willing to
put the work in.
Yes, I'm willing to put thework in, and if you need a
reminder, I'm willing to remindyou that.
(00:24):
I'm willing to remind you thatI'm willing to put the work in.
I'm willing to put the work in,that I'm willing to put the
work in.
I'm willing to put the work in.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Alright, here we go.
Hey everyone, another episodeof your Will podcast.
I'm reaching far.
I actually woke him up out ofhis bed, out of his beautiful
slumber, because I was just soexcited and it was my mistake.
I'm sorry, lucas, because I waslike 2 o'clock, 2 o'clock,
(01:03):
can't wait.
And then I realized it was 3o'clock and like early your time
, so I have pickle darling.
Uh, lucas, here with us fromfrom his, his moniker, his band,
his music.
Um, coming all the way in fromchrist church, new zealand.
Um, lucas, you're the first newnew zealandite Zealander.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
How do you say it?
New, zealander, new?
Zealander?
Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
I thought that's New, zealander, that's good, yeah,
that makes sense to me.
So first time that we'vereached into your country to
discover some of the music andbeen a long-time listener I mean
, pickle Darling makes thesebeautiful indie pop gems uh,
very diy, uh, but greatcollaborators you work with.
(01:51):
And you know my first questionactually I discovered this by
listening back to your that youhave a relationship with bedbug,
with dylan from bedbug yeah,cool how did that come to be?
If you're well sort of.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
I don't know if I'd call it a relationship, I guess
so I mean I'm a fan, yeah yeah,I'm, I was um.
So I think when I first, when Iwas kind of first um, before I
was releasing music, I was a bigfan of, like I would just go
through band camp and discover alot of, like you know, lo-fi
(02:26):
stuff, yeah, and a lot of theartists that I was like a big
fan of also.
You know, I eventually kind ofbecame friends with them just
through the internet, cause Iwas following the label Z tapes
Well, it's actually meant to bepronounced as Z tapes, but it
sounds wrong.
Yeah, and Dead Bug was one ofthem and I was such a big fan of
(02:51):
their first album and it waslike it was kind of one of those
albums that's like I mean, Ilove all their albums,
particularly the second album.
The second album's amazing.
But yeah, I feel like it's coolwhen you hear something that is
like it feels like oh okay, thisis how I can participate in
(03:14):
this as well.
It kind of gives you permissionto Just the way it's recorded,
how it's so scrappy but alsothere's so much song craft in
there and it's it's so scrappybut also there's so much song
craft in there and it it's notlike a.
You couldn't hear lots ofexpensive gear or expensive
studio um, but it has.
But it's also just as amazing,sounding as like an animal
(03:36):
collective album.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
You know, it's just yeah, for sure, I mean.
I I feel um a lineage betweenyou know, dylan, and and what
you're doing as well.
There's this commonality, or atipping of the cap to one
another in your song crafting.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
Yeah, I definitely see myself as still like they're
kind of still one of thoseartists that I'm like um, I'm
still kind of chasing what theydo a little bit like yeah, but
you've been doing this for awhile now.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
I guess, like this is you.
You had laundromat that cameout in 2023, but you have other
three, other four other full,full records.
Really, I mean, yeah, um, underyour belt.
Um, maybe before we dive intothe records, I'd love to kind of
ask you about how, how you cameinto starting to song, right
(04:31):
and um, you know where youpicked up your first instrument
and like how did it all kind ofstart clicking for you?
Where, where music had to be apart of your daily functionings
in this world of ours?
Speaker 3 (04:46):
I think it was, I guess in primary school.
I was like it was kind ofembarrassing.
I was playing ukulele a lot inprimary school when I was way
too old to be like getting ridof the ukulele and I'd be
playing like you know, learninglike Smells Like Teen Spirit and
like Steward of Heaven andSweet Child Of Mine on the
ukulele.
(05:06):
I was like, yeah, I want to belike that.
And then eventually I got intoguitar and so I guess tried to
play the same songs.
But I think eventually I got tothe point where I was like I
just I don't know you kind ofjust get bored of just trying to
learn songs or you just learnthe parts of songs that you like
(05:28):
and you're just more interestedin writing your own songs.
So there's not many songs thatI can actually play right
through.
If I went on stage and peoplewere like requesting like I
don't know Wonderwall, Iprobably couldn't play it.
I don't know what to thinkabout.
Couldn't play it.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
But I was like I could write songs and then like,
yeah, I go, something like that, yeah yeah, um, totally,
totally.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
But yeah, I think, and even when I was like
studying music, because I wentto um music school it's called
the jazz school, but I didn'tstudy jazz, um, and three years
of that and it was like I feltso out of place, I mean I still
I I have fond experiences therebecause, like, to be honest, the
(06:14):
tutors were all pretty greatand all the people were great,
um, but I was just like, oh, I'mclearly like maybe kind of the
wrong person, like I just, Idon't know, I'm just so like
shit at my instrument and I wasalso never that interested in
like getting good at myinstrument.
I just wanted to write songsand just like make my own, like
(06:36):
lo-fi shit.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Yeah, yeah, um was it a?
Was it a songwriting coursethat?
I think I read that air I Iheard um, maybe on another
podcast.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
I said so there was, um, there's the jazz course, and
then there's the pop course,and then that was the
songwriting course, okay, whichwas like so fucking garbage.
So it'd be like you'd have awhole class, and then I mean I,
the chute is a super nice guy.
(07:08):
I don't want to, I'm not gonna,I shouldn't rip people out,
he's never gonna hear this.
He's a super nice guy, but he'sjust seemed real out of it,
right, um, and was like we'dhave a whole class.
So if you end a line with moon,you can, you know, have a word
that rhymes with moon.
(07:29):
The end of the next line, whatare some words that rhyme with
moon?
Sure, I don't know.
It was like oh, this isn't,this isn't how I write songs.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
So I wanted to see, though did that inform your
songwriting?
It seems like it, like were youalready underway of like in the
processes of writing your ownsongs when you attended, when
you started attending that thatpop yeah, section of definitely.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
I was like, honestly, with that part of it, I don't
know.
I just thought you can't reallyteach a lot of that stuff.
You have to just like find yourown taste.
Yeah, and I think the best wayto learn is always by like just
diving deep into music and beinga music fan and listening to
lots of music and just figuringout why you like the things you
(08:19):
like and then almost just tryingto replicate that for a bit
until you figure out how to just, you know, really do it for
yourself.
And there's like, there's wayspeople can maybe help you and
guide you, but I don't know, youreally just have to find your
own taste and just likeunderstand why you like the
(08:39):
music you like.
I think that's just, I don'tknow.
Just being a music fan isalways, I think, so much more
important than like a formaleducation, right?
Speaker 2 (08:50):
right, you know, and did you have an idea of the
aesthetic that you wanted tocreate with Pickle Darling Like,
was it, or did you?
Stumble upon it or did you likekind of create a persona or how
you wanted the songs to I thinkI noticed I I always liked, um,
(09:11):
I don't know how to describe it.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
I always liked music that I thought was like pretty.
That was always a thing.
When I was young I was likenever, I don't know, I was never
into, like you know, a lot ofthe cool.
I was never into, like you know, a lot of the cool bands.
I was never into like SonicYouth or anything you know I was
, I like, always preferred, likeI don't know, I love all that
like early 2000s, like soft rock, like you know, like Travis and
(09:35):
Coldplay and stuff you know,just like, yeah, very melodic
and um, well, I was super intothe beatles growing up and like
sparkle horse and syphianstevens and joanna newsom and
that sort of like.
Oh, it's all about likeintricate melodies and lots of
like, lots of details.
It's just kind of like earcandy.
(09:57):
That was always what, what I wasinto and I was never that into
like electric guitars or ornoise or I don't know um, so I
think that was always somethingthat, um, I was always I don't
know, always kind of informed.
My music and I think in termsof like my sound, that kind of
(10:20):
just came out of likelimitations.
I was always a big fan of likeokay, like uh, just kind of
making use of what I have andseeing how good I can make that,
as opposed to just trying tobuy more expensive gear or
waiting to like have access to astudio.
And it's also, when you haveaccess to a studio or something,
it's like you're not in fullcontrol of it.
(10:41):
You can't really it's hard tomake your own it's hard to make
everything sound like you're notin full control of it.
You can't really.
It's hard to make your own.
It's hard to make everythingsound like you.
Um, so that was always, I don'tknow.
So I I still just use one micand I just use logic pro to
record everything.
Um, and you've always had ahome studio, I imagine, like is
that where you?
record most of your your songsat home or the demos yeah, at
(11:05):
home, and then you bring them tothe studio no, I've, I never
use a studio, I think I thinkfor me a studio would be such a
struggle because it's so muchabout, like, the specific
details that when I'm recording,I know instantly if I've made a
mistake or have to redosomething and I just I can just
quickly hit the space bar, pressenter, start again.
(11:27):
I don't have to likecommunicate to someone else, or
if I have an idea, I can justrecord instantly, um, and you
know, sit in my room for, likeyou know, seven hours and not
feel like I'm wasting someone'stime.
Yeah, interesting.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
And did?
Speaker 2 (11:43):
you did your records like between like.
Again, I was, I was, I was, youknow, just reading up on some
of the reviews and stuff thathad been put out there and it
was saying that, cosmonaut, your, your record, that, uh, that
you put out in 2021 was muchmore.
You wanted that more meticulous, and then it shifted with this
(12:06):
latest record to being much more.
I think you said a quote fromyou was let's have more
beautiful nothing happeningwithin.
And you were wanting it to bemore authentic and less, you
know, knob turning.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Is that a?
Speaker 2 (12:25):
difference that you looked at when you were, when
you record the differencebetween those two records that
you put out.
Speaker 3 (12:31):
Yeah, I think with with Cosmonaut, I was really
thinking a lot about albums thatfeel like albums, you know,
like I don't know, like the likeYankee Hotel, foxtrot, or like
a Microphones album, where it'slike it's not necessarily about
the individual songs but, youknow, there's more space for
(12:52):
like long I don't know long kindof passages that go somewhere,
or, yeah, I don't know, thatalbum still feels like a really
cohesive kind of journey,whereas with Laundromat it was a
lot about like more about mydaily practice is like what
(13:13):
music is to me, and it was aboutlike every, every day or as
much as I could, just trying towrite songs for myself, not
necessarily about anything, butit's just almost like a
meditation for myself.
Um, and I tried to keepeverything on laundromat like as
almost like the first instincts, if that makes sense where I
(13:37):
wanted everything to feel asdemo-y as possible, where it's
like, okay, it's just chords,melody, not much else.
There's no, like no crazyproduction, it's just like
almost the bare minimum and justkind of the seed of the spark
of an idea and trying to notyeah, not stamp that out.
So that's why the songs areprobably yeah, the songs are a
(13:58):
lot shorter and they're, I think, more like I was thinking a lot
about like writing really justreally efficient kind of
economic songs.
So, no, no wasted time, um,yeah, no wasted notes, no wasted
words, um and, yeah, did thattake longer to record?
Speaker 2 (14:18):
um, like the one where you know the, the, the
first one that you were playingaround with Cosmonaut much more,
and then, as you were saying,lodgemat was much more of a you
know letting happen what happens.
Which one did you find yourelated to more and has that
(14:39):
informed perhaps your futuresongs and records that you're
probably working on now or havelike did it, did it?
Change the way you processsongs and how you approach
writing them.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
I think there's always something I kind of pick
up on the way, but each album Ifeel like is always like a
reaction to the last album, Likeeverything I found frustrating,
but the last album.
So then I've just kind offinished a new album and it's
almost the opposite oflaundromat, where I was like
tired of songs.
I was like I hate the idea ofwriting songs.
(15:14):
Now I just want to likeactually make an album that's
almost like about recording andlike what I can do with
recording.
Um, I don't know.
So there's lots of like.
The songs are more kind ofassembled from like lots of bits
of recording and the guitarparts are all like cut up and
(15:37):
assembled and I don't know.
I really wanted to make analbum that felt like it was
about, I don't know, just aboutthe act of recording and
production and and just yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
So that's.
That's the next that too.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
I mean you.
I think you took a course, or?
Speaker 3 (15:55):
yeah.
So I did one year of audioengineering right after jazz
school and I had a kind ofsimilar approach.
I'm like I wouldn't know.
I still wouldn't know how tooperate a shooter, but I just I
went into that course just beinglike I want to get what I need
to get to make my own music andthen I'm going to drop out.
That was almost always myapproach from the start.
(16:17):
Um, and that was one of thetutors he was.
He was awesome because it wasso refreshing to have a tutor be
like okay, like I can tell youhow I would do things or my
personal approach to recordingor or production, but it's a
creative thing, so I can'tactually tell you what's right
(16:37):
or wrong.
You have to like.
If you like it, that's right,which is like crazy to hear a
tutor tell you that you knowyeah, yeah because he would.
That was always his how he wouldcritique your work.
It was always like I can onlytell you what my personal taste
is, but I'm not going to tellyou that this is the wrong way
to do it, which I feel.
(16:58):
I feel like I needed to hearyou know.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Yeah, yeah, kind of putting a mirror up and saying,
well, you, you tell me like,yeah, I think it.
It sounds like it pushes thatreflection even further of
yourself and, through thatprocess, like what were the
greatest tips and tricks orlessons that you brought out
from and brought into your musicthat were really valuable to
(17:25):
you.
Once you know you had left, youknow you'd finished the course,
you.
Speaker 3 (17:32):
Once you know you had left, you know you'd finish the
course.
I think it's a lot about likefor me in terms of practical
things, about production.
I think so much of like um the.
The problems that you face inproduction and mixing are
actually songwriting andarrangement.
Songwriting and arrangementissues, if that makes sense.
(17:55):
So, like, often, what happens,um, is that like I don't know
you, maybe people go into studioand record a whole bunch of
stuff and it's like oh, how do Iget this sounding good?
A lot of it's just asongwriting issue where it's
like you have to, because,because I record and produce my
own stuff, whenever I'm writingor arranging a song, I'm writing
it with the production in mind,like I'm writing parts being
like this is going to be in theright speaker, this is going to
(18:18):
be like it's really low in theleft, so I don't have things
kind of just like filling up thesame space or tripping over
themselves, like every part iskind of made with the final
recording in mind.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
If it makes sense, yeah yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
So I don't know, just cutting lots of stuff out and
making space while you'rearranging a song, like I feel
like was something I it seemstricky, though, to like.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Nobody's ever explained it like that, like
because I often ask like for fordiy artists.
Like you have two hats you'rewearing right, you have your
artist hat, and then you havethe whole production hat that
you're wearing as well and howdo you fuse those?
But nobody's ever talked abouthow they do them simultaneously,
like you were describing, whichI find really fascinating.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
Yeah, and I think if you have an okay ear and you
know what you like, you don'treally need fancy gear at all.
Okay ear and you know what youlike, you don't really need
fancy gear at all.
You can.
There are great sounding albumsmade with fancy, fancy gear,
but also great sounding albumsthat are made without fancy gear
, because they know their gearand they know how to use it and
how to make something I don'tknow, like if it's a shitty
(19:24):
microphone like they, they knowhow that, how it sounds, what it
like, how it records well, likehow to mix it in a way that
fits you know.
That makes a cohesive piece ofkind of sound world.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
I guess that's interesting, like kind of
getting to know your gear andwhat it does and then what you
need to do to get the sound outof it that you're looking for
yeah, or if you have like, ifyou don't have fancy gear, like
you can still make somethingthat sounds energetic.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
It's like oh, that's often the best way to like
approach it.
Like like the guided by voicesalbums sound amazing and they,
because they sound so like, theysound like someone's just found
them at the bottom of I don'tknow like buried underground and
it's just like exploding withenergy Totally.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
You know, yeah.
Yeah and Lucas, what?
What were the tipping points inyour musical journey so far,
like, what were some moments intime where you felt like you,
you, you went up the next stepor went to the next level with
your music?
What were some of those eventsor occurrences that kind of
(20:35):
excited you and said, okay, I'mnot flatlining, I see the steps.
I see how it's progressing.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
I think I guess an early one would be.
I think, hmm, I guess an earlyone would be when the the bets
took me on tour Cause that waskind of my first tour, my first
real tour Um, and I was the uhthe opening band for their like
(21:08):
South Island shows we took.
So we did four shows with themand the second show we'd ever
really played as a band togetherwas in a huge theater with 800
people.
I was so nervous.
Yeah, I can imagine it was veryscary, but I don't know.
I think because when I firststarted Pukoran, I never had the
(21:30):
intention of playing live it.
I just, it just became a thingbecause people keep asking me
like, oh, you should play a show, you should open for us, and so
I guess I should assemble aband.
Um, yeah, and eventually, howdid the best find you?
like how was it through their ztapes at the time, or was it me,
(21:50):
I'm not, I'm not sure, but Ithink because New Zealand is so
small, like if you're makingmusic and you're I don't know
making a better name foryourself, the best eventually
find you.
I think also because they'resuch a um, they're such music
fans and there's such aproactive band and helping out
other, like they're such achampion of New Zealand bands
(22:14):
and they will always reach outand encourage you and like I
don't know, they're really cool,they really help people out in
like really practical ways aswell, like they're always yeah.
So there's that and there'salso I mean, I guess the biggest
one is probably signing tofather daughter records, which
(22:36):
was like great, great label.
I don't know that's, that's,that's kind of I don't know,
it's kind of crazy.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
It's always kind of like in the back of mind a bit
of a dream to sign to like aninternational label.
Um, and was that relationshipright from the get-go a positive
?
One for you and like is that akind of label that respects your
um artistic freedom and likethey don't put too many
(23:01):
parameters in your way.
Speaker 3 (23:04):
Yeah, no, they put like no parameters in a way and,
um, yeah, I feel like, becausethey're it's, it's, you know,
it's basically two people and Iwas like, oh, they're just very
hard working and they're justlike nice people and we've just
become friends, you know.
So now, like I, I want to dowell for them, if that makes
(23:26):
sense, because I can see howhard that worked for me and I'm
like, I'm like I feel bad thatI'm costing them so much money.
I'm like, okay, I want to tryand make this money for you.
You know well, I'm sure in turn.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
You definitely help.
You know their label out aswell um, we'll see is is um
laundromat that you're first onum yeah okay, unfollowed which
is it's weird, because that wasthe album that I made with like
(23:58):
no audience.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
That was like laundromat I made is like this
is my giving up album, this ismy album that I'm like okay, I
don't care about climbing themusic career ladder, I just need
to figure out what music is tome and like why I make music
just for myself and and the aimI guess I was just gonna like
(24:22):
kind of I don't know, just dumpit on the internet or something
or make my own records, or I was, I was, I'm always going to
make records for my whole life,whether there's a label involved
or not, you know, um, but it'shappy, I mean it's.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
It's nice to have the support, though, um yeah, so I
I pretty much finished the albumwhen they reached out to me and
yeah, good for you, man, goodfor you, and I just I'm curious
about that first series of showsthat you did, like what was
your setup?
Because I mean diy artists, Imean you do everything right,
(25:01):
and then to translate that to agroup of people sitting and
standing in front of you, it'squite sometimes it can be quite
challenging what, how did, howdid you translate the record
stuff to a live performance?
Speaker 3 (25:15):
it's, it's hard but it's, it's very fun.
But, um, just a lot of problemsolving and a lot of like
because there's no set defaultsounds we can fall back on,
because it's not like a rockband with his bass, electric
guitar, drums.
It's like, okay, the firstiteration of the live band there
were five people, no drums.
(25:37):
It was like drum machine me onacoustic guitar, someone else
also on acoustic guitar, oh,there was someone on bass and
someone on like glockenspiel,and and yeah, and and yeah.
And then the second version itwas like yeah, well, so it's
(25:58):
basically when there's, whenthere's a full band, it's just
drum machine, keyboards, guitar,yeah, it's just like no bass,
no bass for electric guitars.
So sound people other than thefact that I sing really quietly,
sound guys that it shows loveus.
(26:20):
Because there's no drums andamps on stage.
Everything is the eye controleasily what's going on, yeah,
yeah, that's cool yeah and did.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Did playing live inform your music or or change
it a little bit?
Like, did you start thinkingabout if I was playing this live
?
You know, like before you weresaying, when I, when I'm first
creating a song, I think of thetwo, like the production side
and what I'm writing and theartistic side did.
Did the live stuff, playinglive start to seep in there as
(26:54):
well as you were as?
Speaker 3 (26:57):
you continue to write songs, Not not really, to be
honest, because I felt when Iplay live it's not I don't know.
For a long time I always feltlike a compromise, if that makes
sense, whereas I think when Istarted I never felt like a real
musician for a long timebecause I hadn't grown up
playing gigs and I didn't feellike I could get up on stage
(27:21):
with a guitar and a mic and justput on a show by myself.
So I think over the last coupleof years that was something
that I really worked on.
I was like, okay, I want to,and I did.
I actually did like a couple ofopen mic nights and that was
just like harrowing Um, whereas,okay, I want to see if I can
just like get on stage with justan acoustic guitar and a mic
(27:45):
and my songs and like put on ashow.
How did you feel thoseexperiences went?
Yeah, I think the open micnight went pretty terrible, but
because right after me there wasthis.
Right after me and right beforeme there were these like hard
out, like fusion jazz rock bandsthat were all like super
(28:07):
musiciany, um, it was crazynight, um.
And there's like these likechild prodigies, it's like.
I think right after me it waslike it looked like they're all
like 12 and they're all justlike shredding.
I was like oh god what am I?
(28:29):
it was really insane.
Like you couldn't have made melook worse but it didn't deter
you like no, so I I've sincethen yeah then, when I was
opening for people and alsobecause it's so expensive to
take a band, you know where,right, when you're like playing
opening slots and stuff, I'vetaken a bit.
(28:50):
We, when we open for like um,we open for lucidacus and open
for what's for open for, are youopen for matchbox 20?
I was like, okay, I'll take aband for those.
I played an arena with matchbox20, no check, and it was insane
but I don't know.
(29:13):
Anyway, with with playing solo,I think that's where I've kind
of found my my thing as a liveperformer, because I was like,
oh man, I actually really loveplaying guitar and I love, I
like kind of grew to lovesinging and and just actually
(29:35):
like feeling the audiencelistening.
I love also like just listeningto the audience as well and
trying to I don't know, I justlove the kind of like almost
challenge of just trying toengage an audience and having
that conversation with them andum, bringing I don't know making
(29:56):
everyone be quiet and listenreally closely.
Yeah, I kind of grew to lovethat and I love.
I love those sorts of shows,like really quiet shows, um, so,
yeah, because I'm on this tour,fitting so nicely with with
that kind of environment um andyeah, and it kind of makes me
feel more like a songwriter yeah, I was like oh yeah, actually
(30:17):
like, and then I feel likethat's actually what's informed
my music.
Now it's like um is because nowI'm working on it, I've been
writing a whole bunch of songsover the last few months that
I'm like oh, these are songsthat I'm just writing for voice
and guitar, um, and yeah, Idon't know.
(30:38):
I just I love, yeah, justpresenting the song itself.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Yeah, and are you finding that you're?
You're feeling more confidentwith your delivery and where
you're putting your vocals inthe songs.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
I think so.
Do you mean in terms ofrecording or playing live?
Speaker 2 (30:59):
In live performances, Because you were saying that
when you first started you werevery quiet in how you delivered.
Has that changed a little bit?
Speaker 3 (31:10):
in in how you delivered.
Has that changed a little bit,the more I think I still sing.
I sing more confidently, but Istill sing very quietly.
But I, because I'm playingguitar, it's like I can just
bring everything down right.
I don't know.
I can sing quietly and I canthen play quieter.
Yeah, like I can be moredynamic and be quieter with
intention, like Like there'ssome songs where I'll like
whisper a bit of it and justhearing, I don't know.
(31:32):
Just being in a room wherethere's like 120 people and
everyone's just being reallyquiet Cause they, they're trying
to hear it, it's like a reallycool.
Yeah, that's wicked, I don'tknow, it's just a really cool
energy in the room.
That I don't know.
And you're kind of like thepuppeteer, kind of like yeah,
(31:53):
like you have a sense when youhave them like when they're, I
think so, zoned into what you'resinging playing, whereas when
you're playing with a full bandit's hard.
You, I feel like I'm thinking somuch about what's going on that
it's hard to really beconscious of the energy in the
room.
When you're playing solo,you're, I feel like you're super
conscious of it, because I'veplayed shows where I'm like I'm
opening or playing an event orsomething and it's like
(32:14):
everyone's just chatting thewhole way and I'm like, well,
okay, I'm just gonna play thesongs, and you're like I, I have
no one.
It's, that's annoying.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
Yeah, um, because there is an intimacy there,
right that you're trying to,yeah, and then you got a bunch
of jackasses, yeah, or whatever.
You know, it's just like dudes.
Come on um yeah, respect so,listeners, if you're at a show,
listen to the music and talk,yeah, and you'll have during
(32:44):
you'll have a better nightthat's right, exactly, exactly I
wanted to just ask too, uh,lucas, about like I really
enjoyed the milkman of humankindness.
The cover you did of billybragg, oh yeah, um, how did you
decide upon covering that song?
Speaker 3 (33:01):
I mean, I've always liked that song.
That's one of my.
The first billy bragg album isone of my all-time favorite
albums, just because of just howit sounds.
It's just guitar and vocals, uh, seven songs.
It's so short.
The album is like what?
13 minutes or something.
It's so short and every song isjust a banger.
(33:22):
Yeah, I don't know.
For me that's like just theperfect album.
Um, like, I would love to makean album that's just like seven
bangers, um, and then like somany people would cover too.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
I mean, you know like , yeah, you're so right in
saying that and I think everyone of those has been covered,
like 20 yeah, you know many,many times um and I saw him live
.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
That's when I got that.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
That tea towel yeah that it's not a poster, it's
actually a tea towel.
Okay, um, talking to the taxman about poetry, right?
Speaker 3 (33:56):
yeah, yeah, um, I saw him live.
I think it might have been lastyear and he performed for two
hours just himself on a guitarand that I thought that was so I
don't know.
That was so inspiring.
I was like, oh, you can't do it, you can, you can sell out a
whole theater.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
You know like 1500 people on stage like he's such a
show, yeah, like you can tellthat he's been doing this since
he was a teenager.
Um, yeah, once he has the crowdand they come to, you know,
they listen, you know, becausehe has like all this history and
records that he just seems likehe's in your living room, you
(34:36):
know, let's gather around thecampfire.
You know just saying, and I'lltell you some stories and we'll
talk about politics a bit andstuff like that yeah it's like
so you're just glued to him thewhole time um and it's hard to
do right.
I mean, I think his experienceand consistency um reveals that
(34:56):
quite a lot yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:59):
So I think I, when I like think about the future for
me, I'm like, okay, what is likemyself at my my peak?
I don't know what would my liveshow look like.
And I'm, oh yeah, we'd probablylook.
I'm like what's, what's?
What would a quiet version ofbilly brag be in a theater?
You know like, yeah, I don'tknow.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
I think it would be.
This is cool, pickle, darling.
It would, it would be.
It would be.
Well, lucas, this has been areally fine treat.
Thanks so much for acceptingthis invite.
Speaker 3 (35:36):
Oh, no, thanks for chatting.
I listen to those podcasts.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
Yeah, Cool.
Well, I mean, it's been apleasure Give us a little idea
like what's coming down the pipethat you can talk about and
that we could look forward to.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
Um from pickle darling um, so I have, I have an
album that's probably going tocome out next year.
Uh, it's just being mixed atthe moment.
Um, and then.
And then what else I'm doing?
The soundtrack for a gamecalled show fly, which is being
developed at the moment.
Wow, um, and yeah, I'm justwriting lots of songs and I
(36:15):
don't really have big goals.
I don't know, I just want tomake write lots of songs, record
lots of songs.
Awesome, that's a fine goal forme.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
I'll tell you I'm I'm excited that you have something
in the works for 2025.
Um, I think that you shouldcome back on and we can talk
about it and compare it to theother ones and how the evolution
has happened.
And if, if you were to give usa little sneak peek of what's
coming in 2025, what would youclose?
(36:45):
What would you most closelyrelate it to of what you've done
already?
Speaker 3 (36:50):
I think it's because each album is like a reaction
against the last one.
It's more, the songs are longer, they're more kind of chopped
up and maybe a bit less songy.
So it feels closer to cosmonaut, I think maybe, but yeah, I
don't know.
(37:10):
It's just more, I don't know.
For me it's quite experimental,but for everyone else it's
probably not.
It's probably not veryexperimental, but for me it just
feels like a change.
I really kind of challengedmyself and I spent months and
months on every song, likethere's nothing that I don't
know.
It was kind of a struggle tomake, to be honest, but because
(37:32):
I just kind of set myself, uh,myself, these kind of challenges
, so like, yeah, almost, if Iyeah, keep up the good work and
I mean keep writing.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
Um, we love your stuff and I'm speaking for more
than than just me.
I have tons of friends thatI've introduced you to them, and
they become avid listeners.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
Oh, amazing Thank you .
Speaker 2 (37:57):
You're doing something really special, and I
love the aesthetic of it, I lovethe sound of it, I love your
style.
So it seems to all be clickinghere, lucas.
So please carry on, and we, aslisteners, will follow along on
the journey.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
Thanks so much and you keep doing, you keep doing
your thing.
It's a great podcast.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
Thanks, man I appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (38:21):
You're a great interviewer.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
Well, thanks a lot, I appreciate it, and you have
yourself a good day.
I guess you're off to work soon.
Yeah, yeah, cool, well, enjoy,and we'll talk soon.
Speaker 3 (38:34):
Awesome Cheers.
Have a good day.
I recollect dreams about theworld fitting in my hand.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
History buried to my terrarium scale when I met with
the servant.
Part of the great experience.
Oh, can you Please give me theokay To leave and get by To get
(39:23):
lunch early.
I need a bite.
Oh, can you.
I need a bike.
A parking lot.
Let me try to swipe your card,pick a third to see if somebody
did it.
Third, third, push daisy.
(39:44):
Enter the middle of the field Onmy way to the strange beaches.
In the park there are somethings I whisper to the leaves
in the grass.
When they whisper back, I beginto see double.
(40:10):
When I get hurt, I sendintrusive thoughts to the stars.
Well, I'm not as pretty as Ilike.
(40:30):
No, I'm not really as I like.
No, I'm not as pretty as I like.
No, I'm not really as I like.
Before I go, now, promise meyou'll pick me up a souvenir Now
(40:59):
and, darling, I wanna catch.
The progress of the human race.
Now, disclosure, my fists aremade of feathers and they tip it
off.
The human race Now Disclosure,my fists are made of feathers
and they tip it out To.
I've broken Every promise Lendto me with my bare hands.
(41:23):
Well, I'm not Pretty as I like.
Well, I'm not pretty as I like.
Well, I'm not pretty as I like.
No, I'm not pretty as I like.
No, I'm not pretty as I like.
Guitar solo.
(41:43):
Thank you.
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