April 16, 2025 • 31 mins
Ever wonder how the humming of air conditioners could inspire an entire album? Tim Rutili, the creative force behind Califone and former member of Red Red Meat, takes us deep into his unconventional musical world where everyday sounds become extraordinary compositions.
Rutili's musical journey reveals a fascinating evolution from his early punk roots to his current experimental approach. "In everything there's tonality," he shares, explaining how he once tuned his guitar to match the collective drone of neighbors' air conditioners while recording in Austin. This philosophy of finding music in unexpected places permeates his creative process, whether he's capturing rainfall on outdoor microphones or repurposing mechanical noise from nearby buildings.
What separates Rutili's work is his embrace of happy accidents and willingness to follow unexpected paths. He describes how Califone's songs often emerge through improvisation rather than traditional composition – band members responding to intriguing sounds, creating hours of experimental audio that later gets shaped into finished pieces. One standout track from their recent album "The Villager's Companion" began this way, incorporating environmental recordings that would never have existed through conventional songwriting methods.
The distinction between Rutili's deeply personal work with Califone and his professional film scoring provides fascinating insight into his versatility as a musician. "With scoring, it's like you're serving a story," he explains, contrasting it with Califone's music which can sometimes be so personal "it might be inaccessible to other people." His approach to performance follows a similar philosophy – treating songs as living entities rather than trying to perfectly recreate studio recordings.
Want to experience Califone's mesmerizing soundscapes in person? Catch them on the East Coast this May, or at their upcoming benefit show for California wildfire relief in Long Beach. As Rutili continues to find renewed joy in his craft, his music stands as a testament to the endless possibilities that emerge when conventional boundaries dissolve.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Back before I was a movie star, straight off of the
farm, I had a picture of anotherman's wife Tattooed on my arm,
with a pack of Camel cigarettesin the sleeve of my t-shirt.
(00:34):
I'm headed out to Hollywoodjust to have my feelings heard.
That town will make you crazy.
Just give it a little time.
You'll be walking around incircles Down at Hollywood and
(00:58):
Vine.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Here we are, another episode of the Be A World
Podcast coming to you.
We are wrapping the week up andI'm very thrilled to have Tim
Rotilli here from Califone andwell, ex-red Red Meat.
Both formed in Chicago, right,tim, but now you are no longer
in Chicago.
(01:20):
You live where the sun shinesall day, every day.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
Not really.
I mean, I live in Californiabut I live in the mountains
where last week we got snowed in.
Oh yeah, the sun is shining.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Okay, nature's vicious little trick, right when
you think, oh, the snow's allover and then it comes back.
It has its year, march, march,it snows, right.
Yeah, yeah, we'll have snowprobably right until april.
Um, here in quebec, uh, okay,we love, we love to hate snow.
I'll leave it at that.
(02:02):
Um, it's been a long winter,we'll say that as well, and
we're really excited to kind ofstart to feel warmth of any kind
.
Yeah, I'm with you.
Yeah, so, tim, my firstquestion I love to kind of
revisit how you got to where youare today Musically with your
(02:22):
music heart today, musicallywith your, with your music, and
I always like to ask, like, whatwere some of your big points in
your career that changed thetrajectory of where you were
going?
Um, do you have some of thosemoments that you could share
with us where it kind ofsomething happened and
experience or an encounter andit changed the direction of of
(02:45):
your musical journey so far?
Speaker 4 (02:47):
um, you know, uh, with the red red meat it was
probably like listening to, can,listening to, like those
electric miles, davis records,right.
That changed us all and made uskind of want to play like that,
even though we didn't reallyhave the chops to do that.
Okay, but it made us do somethings differently and not in
(03:10):
the normal rock band way.
You know, using a computer alsochanged what we were doing.
That was around the last RedRed Meat record that we made
which is called there's a StarAbove the Major Tonight.
That was where we used samplerand computer more.
That changed everything.
(03:30):
Yeah, there's been a few spotslike that.
Caliphone making room soundsort of set a template for us
that we found while making thatrecord.
Right, interesting, interesting.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Yeah, I had this conversation with David Lowery
from Cracker and Campervon awhile ago and we got into a
little bit of his formula andformula in the sense where
they've stumbled upon a way thathe knew how he would construct
songs, you know how they wouldstart, how he would transition
(04:09):
them.
You know, and he followed thatformula.
He said for most of the songsthat he wrote do you, do you
feel a similar sense to thatwith the calif um, with the
californ?
You know, discography, thatlike and I I hate saying formula
because it sounds like, yeah,we just filled the formula and
we just made like it's not assimple as that, but that there
(04:31):
was a structure, that that youtended to follow when you were,
when you go about the writingprocess uh, sometimes it's I
mean, I, I there's.
Speaker 4 (04:43):
it seems like there's a few different formulas.
One is sort of what feelsnatural songwriting and a rhythm
that feels natural and a way toapproach melody that feels
natural.
And another way is just reallygoing towards what does not feel
(05:04):
natural, and that's usually achallenge, but sometimes that's
how you make progress.
Um, with uh, the way we makerecords is like going into
something that really doesn'tfeel comfortable.
Um, another way we do things issometimes we get into a room
and play and improvise and thentake the pieces and slice and
(05:28):
dice and loop and build songsthat way like that happens too,
that's cool, and when you saythat you just start off with you
know a couple of chords andthen just let let inspiration
take, take its course.
But all of that is Nothing.
Start with nothing.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
Okay, Like what would be an example of the nothing
that you would start with.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
Someone's making a sound and the sound is
intriguing, other people sort ofjump on.
You know, sometimes it's arhythm and sometimes it's just
like, maybe, a loop that I wouldmake at home.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
you know, it's, it's anything right, right, and I
imagine that you gather you mustbe a good gatherer of sounds
and loops and and just storingthem away because you never know
, like when you might want topull it back up to incorporate
into a song it seems like thereare periods of, uh, collecting
(06:30):
and gathering things and wordsand sounds and pieces, and then
there's, like usually a longperiod of, like, constructing
and editing out of that rightright, and I I had read a story
too that you had brought yourguitar outside because there was
a hum or a dissonance that wasout there and you tuned your
(06:54):
guitar to that key and that kindof like inspired, like.
those are the kinds of thingsyou're talking about as another
example you're talking about as.
Speaker 4 (07:10):
As another example, yeah, I was in austin, texas
making a record with, uh, myfriend, craig ross, um, and we
were making a record that wasturning out to be songs and uh,
yeah, it was hot and whenever Iwent outside it was like this
sound that was just acombination of all the neighbors
air conditioners.
(07:31):
So, yeah, I I heard melody andI heard melody and tone in that
and tuned the guitar to it, andthen we went in and just made
some stuff up out of thosetunings and that became a record
called guitars tuned airconditioners, which that's what
it is it's such a great, umgreat idea to have and like
(07:55):
opening doors to unknown placesreally.
I mean, who would ever thoughtto do that.
In everything, in every, ineverything there's tonality.
I think, in everything there'stonality.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
I think, right, right , that's so cool and when you
first started writing songs,what were your first songs that
you wrote as an artist that youactually put down on tape?
Was that with Red Red Meat, ordid you have stuff prior to that
that you had been recording?
Speaker 4 (08:22):
I had some bands before that that were pretty
terrible and uh, yeah, it wasjust trial and it feels like it
still is trial and error.
It's like, uh, I don't knowwhen I started liking what I was
doing, um, but it might've beena couple albums into red, red
(08:45):
meat, you know.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
Right, yeah, I read too that you don't like
listening back, Like once, oncethe records packaged, it's like
thank you, Archive, put that inthe files and like it's onto the
next, like you don't spend alot of time dwelling on past
recordings and, um, listeningand listening back and is that
(09:11):
just because of the sheer amountof the production level, that
the saturation that you get justthrough putting a record out.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
Um, I don't know, I think, uh, I don't know why, I
just don't feel usually likelistening to what I just made
and uh don't feel usually likelistening to what I just made
and uh, sometimes you have to goback to learn a song if you're
going to play it at a show.
Um, and sometimes playing thoseold songs at shows they have
(09:43):
their own life, which feelscompletely.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
it might not sound completely different, but to me
it feels completely differentthan, uh, the recording, and I'd
rather not imitate a recording,I'd rather the song be a living
thing that we're all sort ofplaying, right right, like, is
it hard sometimes, because ofthe experimentation and the
(10:08):
playfulness when you're goingabout putting songs together and
records together, thatreproducing it is almost
impossible because it's you'retrying stuff that might be hard
to reproduce on stage?
Um, is, is that some of theissues as well?
Like, because the songs willhave so many different textures
and layers that to recreate itthere's no point.
(10:29):
Let's just play it the way thatwe'll play it live.
That's exactly right.
Yeah, that's it.
Interesting, interesting.
What are some of those happyaccidents that have happened in
the studio for you with, withthe experimenting that that you
do, that just would never beable to be recreated but
happened somehow together withpeople and the songs and the?
(10:54):
You know a buzz, or I heardthat you were dragging cinder
blocks across floors and like,like.
Where do you find theseinspirations and what are some
of those happy, happy accidentsthat happened through all of you
, sometimes it's taking anunhappy accident and just
digging into it and making it,making it work.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
Sometimes it feels like fighting with sounds.
Um, but you know, there there'ssomething on.
We just put out a record calledthe villager's companion and
there's a song on there that'scalled a blood red corduroy
three piece suit and it's like along one and I was at.
(11:37):
Our bass player, brad is agreat recording engineer as well
.
He's a great musician, he's agreat recording engineer and
when you go to his place it'slike a party, which I'm not good
at and then it's always like ajam.
So he's got it mic'd up and Iremember that day it was raining
(12:03):
.
He had mics outside recordingrain.
His neighbor's building makes aterrible sound.
They put some ventilation thingoutside.
That is terrible.
So one mic was outside catchingthe rain and the sound.
(12:24):
Uh, and we had sort ofworkstations that we were
wandering around.
We recorded a couple of hoursof just noise and stuff.
And then he said at the piano,and then I was like, okay, did
we just have fun today?
Felt kind of fun, and then Iended up taking it home, editing
(12:47):
it into the shape of that songand then bringing it back and
then just building and buildingand building this thing.
So that was how that one cameabout, and there's no way that
anybody would have written that.
You know like sat down with theintention to make that.
That only came out of like thisis the environment we're in.
(13:12):
Our brains are somewhat emptyright now.
We're not really thinking,we're just sort of like trying
to work with every situationthat we have going on in this
place and, uh, that's what.
That's what came out.
It was like, uh, yeah, Iremember editing the next day
and things sort of made a littlebit of sense, but it's never
(13:36):
anything that I would havenaturally structured and I don't
think brad would have naturallystructured it that way either.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
Okay, interesting I love that.
I'm gonna listen to that againmore closely.
Somebody said listen to allthese songs with headphones on
and then you'll hear all ofthose, the multiple levels,
everything going on, um, which Ifind pretty fascinating.
Um.
So what is your process, though?
(14:02):
Like what's your standardprocess for putting a song
together?
Um, and maybe I'll elaborate abit.
Does it come from those kindsof like?
Just things happen and then yougather this, you know recording
through a jam or through umcoming together with musicians,
or do you sit and write songs?
Sometimes, you know, with, withyour guitar or piano, um, and
(14:26):
then bring them in, Like, what,what, what tends to be your
approach when you're, whenyou're writing songs?
Speaker 4 (14:32):
well, uh, on villagers, I wrote songs and I
demoed them and then rewrotethem and then threw them away
and wrote some more.
You know, like I really workedon by myself songwriting okay
and then brought them to peoplepeople had, people were able to
listen to demos and learn songs,but then there were open
(14:56):
sections in each of those songsfor, uh, anything can happen.
Hmm, fun.
Enough room for them to For sure.
Yeah Right, so that's one way,and then another way is like I
don't know, let's see whathappens.
You know, I have this noise orI have this sound or I have this
(15:19):
loop, or I have this like blockof words, and let's see what
happens between things that aresort of more immediate or
composed written songs and thensome things that are just uh,
let's see what happens whenwe're together right and has
(15:40):
that been your mindsetthroughout your career as a
songwriter?
like sometimes seeing where itgoes, what happens, but also
having that songwritingdiscipline where you're, where
you're very structured and andare looking to create a song uh,
probably in the beginning itwas like, uh, learning how to
(16:01):
play neil young songs on aguitar and then once you know
four chords you can write yourown song, um.
And then punk like playing inpunk bands was like, uh, we're
all sort of coming up with partstogether.
It's more like doing mathtogether, um, with sort of like
(16:24):
um, too much energy that youdon't know how to deal with, so
you're putting it into thatmusic, um, and then I don't know
it's, it's not.
And then it was like, uh, well,I just want to be in the faces,
you know, I want to be in therolling stones or the faces, and
let's try to do that.
And then sort of it's likeimitating, at first without the
(16:48):
skill to really sound like whatyou're imitating, and then you
find yourself.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
In that, at least I, I was able to like sort of find
myself and then lose myself, andthen find myself and lose
myself over the course of yearsin me, right and but are there
periods, too, when you just likewhat happens when you hit a
wall, when you're just like Idon't know what to do anymore,
(17:14):
like I, that's an idea, I'vedone that, I've done this.
Like, like, how do you?
What do you do when you hit?
Hit walls in your songwritingprocess?
Speaker 4 (17:23):
stop you know like I do stop for periods of time,
right?
Um, yeah, a lot of things Ithrow, I just throw in the
garbage.
A lot of things are terriblefrom that throw in the garbage.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
So, um, so you got to produce a lot of stuff.
You're you're producing lots ofstuff.
Speaker 4 (17:46):
Even like you don't stop yourself a lot of stuff,
and sometimes I'm doing nothing.
It's just like sometimes I'mworking out, like right now I'm
starting a job, so it's like I'mgoing to be like scoring a film
.
So now I'm getting ready to dothat, so I'm writing pieces of
(18:09):
music for this movie.
Right, I'm sure by the time Iget to the end of this in a
couple of months or however longit takes, I'll want to write
some songs for me, but right nowI'm working for somebody else.
So it's not a matter of like,it's just do the job.
(18:32):
What does this need?
What's going to make thisbetter?
What's going to make this work?
What's going to make thisbetter?
What's going to?
Speaker 2 (18:39):
make this work right.
What's the difference between?
Speaker 4 (18:40):
years off california.
I take years off writing songs.
I don't sometimes I do it atall right?
Speaker 3 (18:46):
no, for sure there's.
You've had some, some breaksbetween records, for sure.
I mean one would have to likeit, would it's?
It seems like you put yourheart and soul into all these
records and, um, it must beexhausting at times.
And then just the wholemachinery of setting out a
record and touring and podcastsand reviews and like videos,
(19:11):
like it just seems like a um, atiring process that one would
put themselves through.
Yeah, but what else are yougoing to do?
Speaker 4 (19:21):
Write scores.
Well, when that comes, I'll doit.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
What's the difference , though, tim, between a song
and a score?
Do you approach themdifferently?
What would be the differencesin your approach to, to to those
two?
Speaker 4 (19:39):
Well, with scoring, it's like you're serving a story
and you're serving a movie, soit has nothing to do with me.
It has everything to do with,um, working at the top of my
creativity, ideally, and uh, andwhat does this need and what
will help?
What gets the point across, orwhat contrasts, or even what's
(20:05):
going to make the people thatI'm working for feel good about
the film they made, or feelbetter about the film they made.
It's like that, working onCalifone stuff, especially
lyrically, it's so personal thatI think it might be
inaccessible to other peoplesometimes.
You know, that's like personalfor me, right, great.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
And did that take time to be able to reveal
yourself to the world that waythrough your music?
It doesn't feel revealing.
Speaker 4 (20:41):
It feels just like um searching and finding.
You know, sometimes it feelsphysical, like searching and
finding my body, right now rightyou know like, how, like what
rhythm, what rhythm moves me,what?
You know what?
What's a groove for me now, asan old person?
(21:03):
You know, because it'sdifferent than what's a groove
when I was a young person right,right, maybe an aging person or
an old person we're aging,we're aging, maybe an aging like
fine wine person.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
So two records you put out within since 2023, you
had Villagers and then theVillagers Companion.
Could you explain a little bitof the idea behind the Villagers
Companion?
What was that?
Just the stuff that you stillreally liked but didn't fit in
the first.
Can you kind of like what?
(21:40):
What's the difference betweenvillagers and villagers?
Companion?
Speaker 4 (21:44):
Uh well, the companion is most of the songs
didn't work in the sequence ofvillagers and put them down for
a year ish and didn't reallylisten to them and then went.
(22:07):
You know what these should comeout, and a couple of the songs
are things that you know, coversongs that made me want to write
songs.
You know that were done backright when we were starting
villagers, or even a little bitbefore like crazy as a loon was.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
Is that one of your examples?
Speaker 4 (22:26):
yeah, yeah, yeah.
That one and uh, family swan,the mecha normal song, like both
those, made me want to writesome songs, even though I
probably I didn't do anything.
That sounds like those songs.
Both of them made me want towrite some songs, even though I
probably I didn't do anythingthat sounds like those songs.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Both of them made me want to write, right, yeah, well
, it's, it's.
I mean some really amazingsongs, that that.
But yeah, I often talk aboutthe sequencing of the songs with
artists and like how do youdetermine that?
Like it's kind of like takingchapters and figuring out how to
put the book together.
How do you go about thatprocess?
And what made the cut for um,what made the cut for villagers,
(23:04):
and then what didn't make thecut?
And like, how did you weedthrough to decide that, yeah,
this will be the sequence.
I want to put these you knowthese songs here and we'll see
about those down the road.
Like, how did you choose?
What was it?
Speaker 4 (23:18):
just how the flow of it was yeah, I mean, it's
instinct and it's how it feelsfor you when you're listening to
these things all together also,like I started playing the
songs for friends and peoplethat I love and trust, and just
um, getting their take on whatwas happening really helped,
(23:39):
like, put that sequence togetheramazing and what do you?
Speaker 3 (23:43):
what do you see?
Is this package now, how do yousee it like?
Do you look at it as kind oftwo, two pieces that you know
are siblings, I guess, orthey're related somehow, like,
how do, how do?
Speaker 4 (23:58):
you describe that there are two records that go
together.
One is the one is the mommy andone is the baby.
I don't know.
It feels like like villagers isis like, is the thing the
companion?
Is like, uh, the processinteresting, and sometimes it's
(24:22):
really interesting to hear theprocess and sometimes, even if
you don't even want to thinkabout the process, I think some
of those songs stand up on theirown and not they're outside of
what the process or the story is.
I, I think, uh, I mean, thereason that we put it out is
because it seems to stand on itsown as an album, right?
Speaker 3 (24:44):
Yeah, totally, I just love the.
It seems much silkier and andfinessed and and massaged and um
, smooth, um, as as a collectionof songs from previous records.
Anyway, um, I just love theproduction of it.
I think it's like so well done.
(25:05):
Um, you feel the meticulouskind of like intensity that must
have happened so I canunderstand in a way where you're
kind of like okay, I've hadenough of that, I don't want to
listen to that anymore.
I've, I've, I've, I've deepbrushed this.
Um, so it, it, it.
It takes some, I guess,distance to kind of, but with
(25:27):
the distance does it add clarityto what you've made, to what
you created, when you kind oflook back on it?
Speaker 4 (25:36):
um, I don, I don't know about clarity, but it does
feel like finishing a thought.
Hmm, it was like finishing anera and finishing a period of
time.
Right, sure, yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
And what is what is?
What are the next chapters looklike for California?
Like I know that you're, you'redoing a score and stuff and
hopefully you'll be.
You're going to be writing more.
What score and stuff?
And hopefully you're going tobe writing more what?
What is 2025?
Speaker 4 (26:01):
hold for for your music, um, that you create
probably.
You know we're playing a shownext weekend in long beach.
That's like a benefit for theuh, for california fires, the la
fires.
Then we're going to the eastcoast in may and playing some
shows there, uh, and then slowlygetting into probably making a
record Slowly.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
Right.
So the process is ongoing.
Amazing, amazing.
And do you get as much joy asyou did from it, as you did when
you were first beginning to, tonow, like?
Do you still get that samesatisfaction and and sense of of
accomplishment when you, whenyou complete something, complete
(26:47):
a project?
Speaker 4 (26:48):
yeah I don't know, I feel like I enjoy the whole.
I enjoy everything more nowbecause maybe I really
appreciate being able to do it.
I really enjoy the people thatI'm playing with and and that's
amazing, you know.
So it's a lot more joy now.
(27:12):
Even if it sounds like, even ifthe music sounds like confusion
and sorrow, it's a joy to play,you know, and it's a joy to
work with the people that I workwith more than ever, cause
there's been times when itwasn't right, right, and there's
been times when I didn't reallyappreciate what I was able to
do.
Speaker 3 (27:33):
Right.
Well, I will tell you, tim,that you bring lots of joy.
I'm sure too Well, great.
Well, I will tell you, tim,that you bring lots of joy.
I'm sure too well to me, I'llguarantee you that.
But putting this music out I'msure brings lots of joy to a lot
of people out there.
Um, so, thank you.
I want to thank you for fortaking some time out of your day
and sharing some of yourexperiences and thoughts.
Um, I truly, really love thislatest, the the Companion.
(27:56):
I wish I could be in Californiato come and see you play, but
if there's any listeners outthere, you can go and see
California play live.
What an experience that will be.
Pick up this record, encourage,support California in ways that
you can.
Tim, again, thanks so much.
This has been a real treat.
All the best with the score andall the new music to come.
(28:18):
That's just down the road.
Speaker 4 (28:21):
Awesome Thank you.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Thanks.
Burn the sheets, bleach thebooks.
The city attempts in the silkroom.
(28:57):
Trust it in Everything in ournumber of eyes.
Look at heaven, thanks to Jesus.
Make a wish upon a moving lightAbove the embers, above the
glow Upon a star, a life ofsatellite light over the embers,
(29:18):
over the glow upon a stain, anight of sad light in the world,
innocent, I've always been Agrain of sound, an ocean of
(29:45):
static, without a mask, withouta ring, a cloud of moths, a
circle in heaven.
Fix it on the race.
The flight is the way, thecarcass in your.
(30:12):
We'll see right back, thank you, so you.
Back before I was a movie star, straight off of the
farm, I had a picture of anotherman's wife Tattooed on my arm,
with a pack of Camel cigarettesin the sleeve of my t-shirt.
(00:34):
I'm headed out to Hollywoodjust to have my feelings heard.
That town will make you crazy.
Just give it a little time.
You'll be walking around incircles Down at Hollywood and
(00:58):
Vine.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Here we are, another episode of the Be A World
Podcast coming to you.
We are wrapping the week up andI'm very thrilled to have Tim
Rotilli here from Califone andwell, ex-red Red Meat.
Both formed in Chicago, right,tim, but now you are no longer
in Chicago.
(01:20):
You live where the sun shinesall day, every day.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
Not really.
I mean, I live in Californiabut I live in the mountains
where last week we got snowed in.
Oh yeah, the sun is shining.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Okay, nature's vicious little trick, right when
you think, oh, the snow's allover and then it comes back.
It has its year, march, march,it snows, right.
Yeah, yeah, we'll have snowprobably right until april.
Um, here in quebec, uh, okay,we love, we love to hate snow.
I'll leave it at that.
(02:02):
Um, it's been a long winter,we'll say that as well, and
we're really excited to kind ofstart to feel warmth of any kind
.
Yeah, I'm with you.
Yeah, so, tim, my firstquestion I love to kind of
revisit how you got to where youare today Musically with your
(02:22):
music heart today, musicallywith your, with your music, and
I always like to ask, like, whatwere some of your big points in
your career that changed thetrajectory of where you were
going?
Um, do you have some of thosemoments that you could share
with us where it kind ofsomething happened and
experience or an encounter andit changed the direction of of
(02:45):
your musical journey so far?
Speaker 4 (02:47):
um, you know, uh, with the red red meat it was
probably like listening to, can,listening to, like those
electric miles, davis records,right.
That changed us all and made uskind of want to play like that,
even though we didn't reallyhave the chops to do that.
Okay, but it made us do somethings differently and not in
(03:10):
the normal rock band way.
You know, using a computer alsochanged what we were doing.
That was around the last RedRed Meat record that we made
which is called there's a StarAbove the Major Tonight.
That was where we used samplerand computer more.
That changed everything.
(03:30):
Yeah, there's been a few spotslike that.
Caliphone making room soundsort of set a template for us
that we found while making thatrecord.
Right, interesting, interesting.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Yeah, I had this conversation with David Lowery
from Cracker and Campervon awhile ago and we got into a
little bit of his formula andformula in the sense where
they've stumbled upon a way thathe knew how he would construct
songs, you know how they wouldstart, how he would transition
(04:09):
them.
You know, and he followed thatformula.
He said for most of the songsthat he wrote do you, do you
feel a similar sense to thatwith the calif um, with the
californ?
You know, discography, thatlike and I I hate saying formula
because it sounds like, yeah,we just filled the formula and
we just made like it's not assimple as that, but that there
(04:31):
was a structure, that that youtended to follow when you were,
when you go about the writingprocess uh, sometimes it's I
mean, I, I there's.
Speaker 4 (04:43):
it seems like there's a few different formulas.
One is sort of what feelsnatural songwriting and a rhythm
that feels natural and a way toapproach melody that feels
natural.
And another way is just reallygoing towards what does not feel
(05:04):
natural, and that's usually achallenge, but sometimes that's
how you make progress.
Um, with uh, the way we makerecords is like going into
something that really doesn'tfeel comfortable.
Um, another way we do things issometimes we get into a room
and play and improvise and thentake the pieces and slice and
(05:28):
dice and loop and build songsthat way like that happens too,
that's cool, and when you saythat you just start off with you
know a couple of chords andthen just let let inspiration
take, take its course.
But all of that is Nothing.
Start with nothing.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
Okay, Like what would be an example of the nothing
that you would start with.
Speaker 4 (05:53):
Someone's making a sound and the sound is
intriguing, other people sort ofjump on.
You know, sometimes it's arhythm and sometimes it's just
like, maybe, a loop that I wouldmake at home.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
you know, it's, it's anything right, right, and I
imagine that you gather you mustbe a good gatherer of sounds
and loops and and just storingthem away because you never know
, like when you might want topull it back up to incorporate
into a song it seems like thereare periods of, uh, collecting
(06:30):
and gathering things and wordsand sounds and pieces, and then
there's, like usually a longperiod of, like, constructing
and editing out of that rightright, and I I had read a story
too that you had brought yourguitar outside because there was
a hum or a dissonance that wasout there and you tuned your
(06:54):
guitar to that key and that kindof like inspired, like.
those are the kinds of thingsyou're talking about as another
example you're talking about as.
Speaker 4 (07:10):
As another example, yeah, I was in austin, texas
making a record with, uh, myfriend, craig ross, um, and we
were making a record that wasturning out to be songs and uh,
yeah, it was hot and whenever Iwent outside it was like this
sound that was just acombination of all the neighbors
air conditioners.
(07:31):
So, yeah, I I heard melody andI heard melody and tone in that
and tuned the guitar to it, andthen we went in and just made
some stuff up out of thosetunings and that became a record
called guitars tuned airconditioners, which that's what
it is it's such a great, umgreat idea to have and like
(07:55):
opening doors to unknown placesreally.
I mean, who would ever thoughtto do that.
In everything, in every, ineverything there's tonality.
I think, in everything there'stonality.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
I think, right, right , that's so cool and when you
first started writing songs,what were your first songs that
you wrote as an artist that youactually put down on tape?
Was that with Red Red Meat, ordid you have stuff prior to that
that you had been recording?
Speaker 4 (08:22):
I had some bands before that that were pretty
terrible and uh, yeah, it wasjust trial and it feels like it
still is trial and error.
It's like, uh, I don't knowwhen I started liking what I was
doing, um, but it might've beena couple albums into red, red
(08:45):
meat, you know.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
Right, yeah, I read too that you don't like
listening back, Like once, oncethe records packaged, it's like
thank you, Archive, put that inthe files and like it's onto the
next, like you don't spend alot of time dwelling on past
recordings and, um, listeningand listening back and is that
(09:11):
just because of the sheer amountof the production level, that
the saturation that you get justthrough putting a record out.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
Um, I don't know, I think, uh, I don't know why, I
just don't feel usually likelistening to what I just made
and uh don't feel usually likelistening to what I just made
and uh, sometimes you have to goback to learn a song if you're
going to play it at a show.
Um, and sometimes playing thoseold songs at shows they have
(09:43):
their own life, which feelscompletely.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
it might not sound completely different, but to me
it feels completely differentthan, uh, the recording, and I'd
rather not imitate a recording,I'd rather the song be a living
thing that we're all sort ofplaying, right right, like, is
it hard sometimes, because ofthe experimentation and the
(10:08):
playfulness when you're goingabout putting songs together and
records together, thatreproducing it is almost
impossible because it's you'retrying stuff that might be hard
to reproduce on stage?
Um, is, is that some of theissues as well?
Like, because the songs willhave so many different textures
and layers that to recreate itthere's no point.
(10:29):
Let's just play it the way thatwe'll play it live.
That's exactly right.
Yeah, that's it.
Interesting, interesting.
What are some of those happyaccidents that have happened in
the studio for you with, withthe experimenting that that you
do, that just would never beable to be recreated but
happened somehow together withpeople and the songs and the?
(10:54):
You know a buzz, or I heardthat you were dragging cinder
blocks across floors and like,like.
Where do you find theseinspirations and what are some
of those happy, happy accidentsthat happened through all of you
, sometimes it's taking anunhappy accident and just
digging into it and making it,making it work.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
Sometimes it feels like fighting with sounds.
Um, but you know, there there'ssomething on.
We just put out a record calledthe villager's companion and
there's a song on there that'scalled a blood red corduroy
three piece suit and it's like along one and I was at.
(11:37):
Our bass player, brad is agreat recording engineer as well
.
He's a great musician, he's agreat recording engineer and
when you go to his place it'slike a party, which I'm not good
at and then it's always like ajam.
So he's got it mic'd up and Iremember that day it was raining
(12:03):
.
He had mics outside recordingrain.
His neighbor's building makes aterrible sound.
They put some ventilation thingoutside.
That is terrible.
So one mic was outside catchingthe rain and the sound.
(12:24):
Uh, and we had sort ofworkstations that we were
wandering around.
We recorded a couple of hoursof just noise and stuff.
And then he said at the piano,and then I was like, okay, did
we just have fun today?
Felt kind of fun, and then Iended up taking it home, editing
(12:47):
it into the shape of that songand then bringing it back and
then just building and buildingand building this thing.
So that was how that one cameabout, and there's no way that
anybody would have written that.
You know like sat down with theintention to make that.
That only came out of like thisis the environment we're in.
(13:12):
Our brains are somewhat emptyright now.
We're not really thinking,we're just sort of like trying
to work with every situationthat we have going on in this
place and, uh, that's what.
That's what came out.
It was like, uh, yeah, Iremember editing the next day
and things sort of made a littlebit of sense, but it's never
(13:36):
anything that I would havenaturally structured and I don't
think brad would have naturallystructured it that way either.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
Okay, interesting I love that.
I'm gonna listen to that againmore closely.
Somebody said listen to allthese songs with headphones on
and then you'll hear all ofthose, the multiple levels,
everything going on, um, which Ifind pretty fascinating.
Um.
So what is your process, though?
(14:02):
Like what's your standardprocess for putting a song
together?
Um, and maybe I'll elaborate abit.
Does it come from those kindsof like?
Just things happen and then yougather this, you know recording
through a jam or through umcoming together with musicians,
or do you sit and write songs?
Sometimes, you know, with, withyour guitar or piano, um, and
(14:26):
then bring them in, Like, what,what, what tends to be your
approach when you're, whenyou're writing songs?
Speaker 4 (14:32):
well, uh, on villagers, I wrote songs and I
demoed them and then rewrotethem and then threw them away
and wrote some more.
You know, like I really workedon by myself songwriting okay
and then brought them to peoplepeople had, people were able to
listen to demos and learn songs,but then there were open
(14:56):
sections in each of those songsfor, uh, anything can happen.
Hmm, fun.
Enough room for them to For sure.
Yeah Right, so that's one way,and then another way is like I
don't know, let's see whathappens.
You know, I have this noise orI have this sound or I have this
(15:19):
loop, or I have this like blockof words, and let's see what
happens between things that aresort of more immediate or
composed written songs and thensome things that are just uh,
let's see what happens whenwe're together right and has
(15:40):
that been your mindsetthroughout your career as a
songwriter?
like sometimes seeing where itgoes, what happens, but also
having that songwritingdiscipline where you're, where
you're very structured and andare looking to create a song uh,
probably in the beginning itwas like, uh, learning how to
(16:01):
play neil young songs on aguitar and then once you know
four chords you can write yourown song, um.
And then punk like playing inpunk bands was like, uh, we're
all sort of coming up with partstogether.
It's more like doing mathtogether, um, with sort of like
(16:24):
um, too much energy that youdon't know how to deal with, so
you're putting it into thatmusic, um, and then I don't know
it's, it's not.
And then it was like, uh, well,I just want to be in the faces,
you know, I want to be in therolling stones or the faces, and
let's try to do that.
And then sort of it's likeimitating, at first without the
(16:48):
skill to really sound like whatyou're imitating, and then you
find yourself.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
In that, at least I, I was able to like sort of find
myself and then lose myself, andthen find myself and lose
myself over the course of yearsin me, right and but are there
periods, too, when you just likewhat happens when you hit a
wall, when you're just like Idon't know what to do anymore,
(17:14):
like I, that's an idea, I'vedone that, I've done this.
Like, like, how do you?
What do you do when you hit?
Hit walls in your songwritingprocess?
Speaker 4 (17:23):
stop you know like I do stop for periods of time,
right?
Um, yeah, a lot of things Ithrow, I just throw in the
garbage.
A lot of things are terriblefrom that throw in the garbage.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
So, um, so you got to produce a lot of stuff.
You're you're producing lots ofstuff.
Speaker 4 (17:46):
Even like you don't stop yourself a lot of stuff,
and sometimes I'm doing nothing.
It's just like sometimes I'mworking out, like right now I'm
starting a job, so it's like I'mgoing to be like scoring a film
.
So now I'm getting ready to dothat, so I'm writing pieces of
(18:09):
music for this movie.
Right, I'm sure by the time Iget to the end of this in a
couple of months or however longit takes, I'll want to write
some songs for me, but right nowI'm working for somebody else.
So it's not a matter of like,it's just do the job.
(18:32):
What does this need?
What's going to make thisbetter?
What's going to make this work?
What's going to make thisbetter?
What's going to?
Speaker 2 (18:39):
make this work right.
What's the difference between?
Speaker 4 (18:40):
years off california.
I take years off writing songs.
I don't sometimes I do it atall right?
Speaker 3 (18:46):
no, for sure there's.
You've had some, some breaksbetween records, for sure.
I mean one would have to likeit, would it's?
It seems like you put yourheart and soul into all these
records and, um, it must beexhausting at times.
And then just the wholemachinery of setting out a
record and touring and podcastsand reviews and like videos,
(19:11):
like it just seems like a um, atiring process that one would
put themselves through.
Yeah, but what else are yougoing to do?
Speaker 4 (19:21):
Write scores.
Well, when that comes, I'll doit.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
What's the difference , though, tim, between a song
and a score?
Do you approach themdifferently?
What would be the differencesin your approach to, to to those
two?
Speaker 4 (19:39):
Well, with scoring, it's like you're serving a story
and you're serving a movie, soit has nothing to do with me.
It has everything to do with,um, working at the top of my
creativity, ideally, and uh, andwhat does this need and what
will help?
What gets the point across, orwhat contrasts, or even what's
(20:05):
going to make the people thatI'm working for feel good about
the film they made, or feelbetter about the film they made.
It's like that, working onCalifone stuff, especially
lyrically, it's so personal thatI think it might be
inaccessible to other peoplesometimes.
You know, that's like personalfor me, right, great.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
And did that take time to be able to reveal
yourself to the world that waythrough your music?
It doesn't feel revealing.
Speaker 4 (20:41):
It feels just like um searching and finding.
You know, sometimes it feelsphysical, like searching and
finding my body, right now rightyou know like, how, like what
rhythm, what rhythm moves me,what?
You know what?
What's a groove for me now, asan old person?
(21:03):
You know, because it'sdifferent than what's a groove
when I was a young person right,right, maybe an aging person or
an old person we're aging,we're aging, maybe an aging like
fine wine person.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
So two records you put out within since 2023, you
had Villagers and then theVillagers Companion.
Could you explain a little bitof the idea behind the Villagers
Companion?
What was that?
Just the stuff that you stillreally liked but didn't fit in
the first.
Can you kind of like what?
(21:40):
What's the difference betweenvillagers and villagers?
Companion?
Speaker 4 (21:44):
Uh well, the companion is most of the songs
didn't work in the sequence ofvillagers and put them down for
a year ish and didn't reallylisten to them and then went.
(22:07):
You know what these should comeout, and a couple of the songs
are things that you know, coversongs that made me want to write
songs.
You know that were done backright when we were starting
villagers, or even a little bitbefore like crazy as a loon was.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
Is that one of your examples?
Speaker 4 (22:26):
yeah, yeah, yeah.
That one and uh, family swan,the mecha normal song, like both
those, made me want to writesome songs, even though I
probably I didn't do anything.
That sounds like those songs.
Both of them made me want towrite some songs, even though I
probably I didn't do anythingthat sounds like those songs.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
Both of them made me want to write, right, yeah, well
, it's, it's.
I mean some really amazingsongs, that that.
But yeah, I often talk aboutthe sequencing of the songs with
artists and like how do youdetermine that?
Like it's kind of like takingchapters and figuring out how to
put the book together.
How do you go about thatprocess?
And what made the cut for um,what made the cut for villagers,
(23:04):
and then what didn't make thecut?
And like, how did you weedthrough to decide that, yeah,
this will be the sequence.
I want to put these you knowthese songs here and we'll see
about those down the road.
Like, how did you choose?
What was it?
Speaker 4 (23:18):
just how the flow of it was yeah, I mean, it's
instinct and it's how it feelsfor you when you're listening to
these things all together also,like I started playing the
songs for friends and peoplethat I love and trust, and just
um, getting their take on whatwas happening really helped,
(23:39):
like, put that sequence togetheramazing and what do you?
Speaker 3 (23:43):
what do you see?
Is this package now, how do yousee it like?
Do you look at it as kind oftwo, two pieces that you know
are siblings, I guess, orthey're related somehow, like,
how do, how do?
Speaker 4 (23:58):
you describe that there are two records that go
together.
One is the one is the mommy andone is the baby.
I don't know.
It feels like like villagers isis like, is the thing the
companion?
Is like, uh, the processinteresting, and sometimes it's
(24:22):
really interesting to hear theprocess and sometimes, even if
you don't even want to thinkabout the process, I think some
of those songs stand up on theirown and not they're outside of
what the process or the story is.
I, I think, uh, I mean, thereason that we put it out is
because it seems to stand on itsown as an album, right?
Speaker 3 (24:44):
Yeah, totally, I just love the.
It seems much silkier and andfinessed and and massaged and um
, smooth, um, as as a collectionof songs from previous records.
Anyway, um, I just love theproduction of it.
I think it's like so well done.
(25:05):
Um, you feel the meticulouskind of like intensity that must
have happened so I canunderstand in a way where you're
kind of like okay, I've hadenough of that, I don't want to
listen to that anymore.
I've, I've, I've, I've deepbrushed this.
Um, so it, it, it.
It takes some, I guess,distance to kind of, but with
(25:27):
the distance does it add clarityto what you've made, to what
you created, when you kind oflook back on it?
Speaker 4 (25:36):
um, I don, I don't know about clarity, but it does
feel like finishing a thought.
Hmm, it was like finishing anera and finishing a period of
time.
Right, sure, yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
And what is what is?
What are the next chapters looklike for California?
Like I know that you're, you'redoing a score and stuff and
hopefully you'll be.
You're going to be writing more.
What score and stuff?
And hopefully you're going tobe writing more what?
What is 2025?
Speaker 4 (26:01):
hold for for your music, um, that you create
probably.
You know we're playing a shownext weekend in long beach.
That's like a benefit for theuh, for california fires, the la
fires.
Then we're going to the eastcoast in may and playing some
shows there, uh, and then slowlygetting into probably making a
record Slowly.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
Right.
So the process is ongoing.
Amazing, amazing.
And do you get as much joy asyou did from it, as you did when
you were first beginning to, tonow, like?
Do you still get that samesatisfaction and and sense of of
accomplishment when you, whenyou complete something, complete
(26:47):
a project?
Speaker 4 (26:48):
yeah I don't know, I feel like I enjoy the whole.
I enjoy everything more nowbecause maybe I really
appreciate being able to do it.
I really enjoy the people thatI'm playing with and and that's
amazing, you know.
So it's a lot more joy now.
(27:12):
Even if it sounds like, even ifthe music sounds like confusion
and sorrow, it's a joy to play,you know, and it's a joy to
work with the people that I workwith more than ever, cause
there's been times when itwasn't right, right, and there's
been times when I didn't reallyappreciate what I was able to
do.
Speaker 3 (27:33):
Right.
Well, I will tell you, tim,that you bring lots of joy.
I'm sure too Well, great.
Well, I will tell you, tim,that you bring lots of joy.
I'm sure too well to me, I'llguarantee you that.
But putting this music out I'msure brings lots of joy to a lot
of people out there.
Um, so, thank you.
I want to thank you for fortaking some time out of your day
and sharing some of yourexperiences and thoughts.
Um, I truly, really love thislatest, the the Companion.
(27:56):
I wish I could be in Californiato come and see you play, but
if there's any listeners outthere, you can go and see
California play live.
What an experience that will be.
Pick up this record, encourage,support California in ways that
you can.
Tim, again, thanks so much.
This has been a real treat.
All the best with the score andall the new music to come.
(28:18):
That's just down the road.
Speaker 4 (28:21):
Awesome Thank you.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Thanks.
Burn the sheets, bleach thebooks.
The city attempts in the silkroom.
(28:57):
Trust it in Everything in ournumber of eyes.
Look at heaven, thanks to Jesus.
Make a wish upon a moving lightAbove the embers, above the
glow Upon a star, a life ofsatellite light over the embers,
(29:18):
over the glow upon a stain, anight of sad light in the world,
innocent, I've always been Agrain of sound, an ocean of
(29:45):
static, without a mask, withouta ring, a cloud of moths, a
circle in heaven.
Fix it on the race.
The flight is the way, thecarcass in your.
(30:12):
We'll see right back, thank you, so you.
Popular Podcasts
Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club
Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club — the podcast where great stories, bold women, and irresistible conversations collide! Hosted by award-winning journalist Danielle Robay, each week new episodes balance thoughtful literary insight with the fervor of buzzy book trends, pop culture and more. Bookmarked brings together celebrities, tastemakers, influencers and authors from Reese's Book Club and beyond to share stories that transcend the page. Pull up a chair. You’re not just listening — you’re part of the conversation.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com