S1E12: Pastor Drew Sams: Balancing Tradition and Innovation in Faith

Episode Transcript
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Paige Nolan (00:01):
North node.

Drew Sams (00:01):
This is what faith is. It's bringing your doubts
before God, bringing your emotions before God.
It's having faith that God is big enough to
handle me shaking my fist at God. And what's
beautiful at the end of Psalm 13 is, but I will
trust in your unfailing love. I will sing of your
salvation, for you have been good to me. So it's
like even though I don't feel it now, I'm going

(00:23):
to remember that you've been faithful before. So
I'm still going to sing, but it's probably going
to be through tears. And then it makes me think,
now that I have two boys, I'd much rather them
come to me angry, sad, disappointed, hurt,
frustrated, than to discover they've been
harboring that on their own, never bringing it to
me.

Yeah. Hi, I'm Paige Nolan. Welcome to. I'll meet
you there. A place where heart centered
conversations are everything. Living what matters
is the truest thing, and sharing the journey is
the best. Hi everyone and welcome back. My guest

(01:07):
today is a senior pastor at a prominent local
church, Belair Presbyterian Church here in Los
Angeles. His name is Drew Sams. I wanted to meet
Drew here because I'm interested in how he lives
his life both professionally and personally, so
devoted to his faith. As many of y'all know, I'm
interested in faith as a topic and it's not just
because faith is important to me personally, it

(01:29):
definitely is. But I've also come to understand
how faith is important for everybody, each of us,
for all of us. Faith is essential to the human
experience and we're living through a time when
how we organize and structure our faith based
lives is changing. Churches are not as central as
they once were. For example, we don't have any

(01:49):
sort of built in support around faith based
practices like used to have in our culture. How
we relate to religion and talk about faith is an
area that seems to be evolving and as a
collective, it's murky. Pastor Drew is someone I
feel is leading well through what I would
consider to be the tricky territory of religion
in these times. He also used to be my neighbor

(02:10):
and for a hot minute we overlapped at the church
because I was teaching the Mommy and Me classes
when Drew began his tenure as a pastor. I should
tell you we recorded this conversation during the
World Series between the Dodgers and the Yankees,
which is over now. And so I start by referencing
the Dodgers because Drew is a third generation
native Angeleno and the Dodgers did go on to win.
So I'm sure that he's happy about that. Drew has

(02:32):
been a pastor at Bel air Church for 11 years now.
He's a graduate of the University of Southern
California and Fuller Theological Seminary. He's
also a husband to his wife Erica and a father to
their two sons and a big time adventurer in the
natural world, which you will hear him talk
about. In this conversation, Drew shares the
early messages of his life. How he came to
Christianity, which may surprise you, and how

(02:54):
curiosity has been a guiding principle to deepen
his faith and inform his leadership. Drew gives
his take on the relationship between science and
faith and he pulls some beautiful references from
the Bible to illustrate how he sees the two as
complementary. We talk about what the church
really is, how he stays connected to his own
faith when his role there is to help others
cultivate faith. And towards the end, Drew has a

(03:16):
wonderful insight around doubt and certainty and
the one word in the Bible that outnumbers both
the words trust and belief. I think y'all are
going to appreciate this episode about faith. It
may even get you thinking about what you believe.
Enjoy my conversation with Pastor Drew Sams. So I

(03:36):
feel like I have to start actually with how you
feel about the Doctors being in the World Series
because you're a total LA guy and so is that
meaningful to you? We're recording this in the
middle of Dodger season.

Drew Sams (03:49):
I mean super meaningful. So I'm a third
generation Angelina. My grandpa graduated with
Jackie Robinson.

Nice.

Drew Sams (03:56):
From John Muir high school in 1939. And so as a
kid I'd hear stories and I distinctly remember
where I was when Kirk Gibson hit his game one
walk off home run in 1988. I was at my
grandparents house. I remember like the avocado
green carpet. Still to this day, the shag carpet.
And the crazy thing is I got invited and was at

(04:17):
game one when Freddie Freeman hit his walk off
grand slam.

Good for you.

Drew Sams (04:22):
I know, it was like, it was as like a die hard
Dodger fan. It was so meaningful. And I went with
a guy, he's part of our church and his dad has
had season tickets since 1968. So hearing his
stories about growing up, it just, it's amazing.
And it's such a beautiful city, misunderstood
city, but I love it.

I have to admit that one of my experiences of
being in LA is so different from being raised in
New Orleans. And so in New Orleans it's a smaller
city, it's very unified, it's easily unified
because people don't move. It's not as transient
as LA is. And so when the Saints are doing well,
the whole city is dressed in black and gold. So
it's been so nice for me in Los Angeles to feel

(05:03):
this unity because the Dodgers being in the World
Series and doing as they have been doing, and I
go to the coffee shop almost every morning, I get
the same cup of tea. Everyone's got their LA
Dodgers baseball hats on and everybody behind the
counter, all the baristas are talking about it.
So it's been so fun, it's so amazing.

Drew Sams (05:20):
But we are fair weather fans, so those hats will
be gone by November.

There you go.

Drew Sams (05:27):
And it's just how it is, you know, but it is fun
when those moments happen. It's so fun.

So tell me a little bit more about your childhood
and I know your love for la, because I just know
you and I've known you and I've seen you on your
skateboard and I know how you feel about surfing.
But I'm interested also in the early messages
about faith and kind of paint the picture for us
of your childhood in la.

Drew Sams (05:50):
Well, it's a bit surreal. So I'm like outside of
myself looking back, but also trying to imagine,
you know, all your listeners listening in and
catching this. And for those who don't know me,
who meet me as a pastor in la, I imagine
instantly they think, oh, he's probably this,
probably that, probably this, probably that,
which is natural. Like we try to make sense of

(06:12):
the world around us and we take shortcuts
sometimes of what we know. And so it just, it's
always interesting for me to look back on my life
and be like, how on earth did I get to where I am
today? You never would have known it. Growing up
in la in the 80s, it was kind of a middle class
growing up, tougher part of Pasadena. My mom sold

(06:32):
cheesecakes that she made to restaurants and
bars. My dad worked three jobs, he worked for a
golf course, he laid carpets on the weekend, he
stocked the shelves at Alpha Beta grocery store,
you know, so it was like a hard working family.
And like in the early years I really don't have
much memory of church, maybe like a Christmas Eve

(06:54):
service here or there. But what I do remember is
my parents splitting up and divorcing when I was
six. Didn't know till many years later that my
dad had had multiple affairs and left my mom and
my mom remarried. Looking back, I would say he's
an amazing guy, but I totally couldn't appreciate
how amazing he was. When I was seven and eight

(07:16):
years old, he was very different than what my
biological dad was. My Biological dad was kind of
like Chevy chase from every 70s movie, you know,
like Caddyshack. Like, that's my dad.

Yeah.

Drew Sams (07:29):
And my stepdad Malcolm, who's so amazing. But I
couldn't appreciate at the time because he was
kind of straight laced and, you know, very
responsible and not the life of the party, but
would go to church and started taking us to
church. And so my first experience was I don't
like this because it kind of represents a part of

(07:51):
my life that I didn't anticipate. My parents
split it up. Yes. And this, this feels foreign to
me. And yet there was times where I'd have fun.
You know, it's like youth group stuff and growing
up and going around it, having fun. And I grew
up, you know, kind of going off and on. But then
I got really involved in sports.

Yeah. And as a high schooler.

Drew Sams (08:11):
As a high schooler, I played very competitive
soccer. I was a goalkeeper, traveled all over
California. Our home field was in Irvine, even
though we lived in at that time in Glendale. And
so every weekend was tournament. So I just
stopped going to church and just was not part of
my radar at all. And I guess the best way I could
describe it was by default, I'm not Hindu, I'm

(08:33):
not Muslim, I'm not atheist, I'm not. Not Jewish.
I guess I'm a Christian.

Right.

Drew Sams (08:37):
You know, that, that, that kind of like
summarized the whole thing. And then I guess, you
know, faith at the time was like, be a good
person.

Sure.

Drew Sams (08:45):
You know, be a good person. And that, that was
the fullness of what that era was for me. And
then I graduated high school and I went to usc
and I did not think it for a moment about church,
about God, about faith.

Yeah.

Drew Sams (08:58):
It just was not a personal thing for me at all.
And maybe we'll come back to that story, but kind
of the origin story is, you know, normal
childhood and had a lot of fun. My mom was and is
so amazing. I mean, she pretty much raised me.
Her love for the outdoors, her spontaneity, you
know, like a core teaching that I feel really

(09:20):
shaped me was every person you meet is a person
of value and you're going to learn something from
them. Don't write them off. And you have
something to learn from everyone. And so it kind
of made me like a curious, inquisitive person
from a young age.

And maybe even a Christian.

Drew Sams (09:35):
And maybe even a Christian. Right? Yeah. So she
modeled that in many ways, perhaps not even
knowing it. God, I would say it now, like God
used that Season and my mom and my stepdad in
such profound ways to teach me love and patience
and sacrifice and.

And isn't it interesting that you've landed
yourself in a pretty prominent leadership role
and yet you had this early foundation of
openness. You know, it's kind of nice that you
weren't pigeonholed into something or like, bred
and born to be a pastor. It's interesting to me,
you know, that that was kind of your early

(10:12):
messages were just about a relationship with.
Love your neighbor as yourself.

Drew Sams (10:17):
Exactly. For sure. Like, that was it. That summed
it up. Love your neighbor as yourself. And even
now, like, in the role. So I'm the senior pastor
at Bel Air Church. It's this historic church in
la, but it's in la and I come across so many
people from so many different backgrounds and
even within the Christian umbrella, which means a
million things to a million people. Right. We

(10:39):
have people who attend who are like, I don't even
know if I believe in God.

Yeah.

Drew Sams (10:43):
But I'm curious and I'm like, I love that. Like,
this is so great. That. And you know, people who
are Jewish who are, you know, interested, because
I also teach a lot from the Hebrew scriptures,
also known as the Old Testament. And it's la. So
there's just this beautiful multicultural,
multiethnic across the socioeconomic spectrum,
across the political spectrum, which can be

(11:04):
really difficult at times.

I'm glad you're doing that. We need that.

Drew Sams (11:08):
Totally. But it's so. It's almost like there is
no reason why this group of people should be in
community with one another.

Yeah.

Drew Sams (11:15):
Like, what's going on here? And ultimately, at
the end of the day, it's a group of people who
are like, I'm curious about what it means to have
a relationship with God through Jesus, and I want
to follow Jesus. And, you know, it's more like a
lived out faith rather than this dogmatic, like,
you're in, we're, you know, or we're in, you're
out kind of thing. So, like, there's this
concept, I don't know if you've heard of this, a

(11:37):
centered set versus a bounded set. No.

Will you tell me more about that?

Drew Sams (11:40):
Yeah. So a centered set is a community of people
who really revolve around the center of
something, whatever that is. So you spoke about
the Saints, right? Yeah, New Orleans Saints and
this football team that becomes the center of the
community, especially when they're doing well.
You talked about the Dodgers, like, for a season,
like, all these people, you know, become like,

(12:01):
oh, my Gosh. Like, yeah, I love the Dodgers, too.
And, you know, they're wearing the hat, so that's
a. What you might call a centered set. A bounded
set is, let's say like a private club or like a
country club where you're either a member or
you're not.

Yeah.

Drew Sams (12:15):
You're either in or you're out. Like, there's
requirements to get in and anyone else is a
guest. And it's like there's a threshold that has
to be crossed. And it's more than just, you know,
like, there's certain things that keep you in and
out. Sometimes, sadly, communities of faith
forget that they're supposed to be a centered set
and become bounded sets. And that could look.

(12:38):
Whatever it looks like, it could be. We only
listen to traditional worship. Yeah. You know, or
we're straight laced. You have a tattoo like,
you're not welcome here. Or like, oh, we're these
kind of, you know, this. It's our community. You
vote that way. Oh, no, you're not welcome. Then
it becomes something it shouldn't be, which is a
bounded set.

Yeah.

Drew Sams (12:57):
And I'm constantly trying to tear down any walls
that people accidentally build or unknowingly
build that create a bounded set when it should be
a centered set.

I love that example. I relate to it because when
I was teaching preschool, I worked at Bel Air
Press just a couple years before you arrived. And
I remember taking that job. The director at the
time and I had known each other socially. I had
popped in and out as a substitute teacher. One of
my best friends was a full time teacher. So I got
to know her in very informal terms. So I felt

(13:27):
close enough with her when we talked about
onboarding me as a full time teacher, which I
never had aspirations to become a preschool
teacher. It just worked out for the family. And I
said to her, I'm not sure if I'm Christian
enough. Like, I don't know if I'm like meeting
all the criteria. If I'm checking the right
boxes, like, what is my relationship with the

(13:47):
Bible? And I grew up Episcopalian, but I went to
A K through 12 Episcopal School. I've always had
a very positive relationship with religion. I
consider myself following the teachings of Jesus
Christ. But it's like, have I accepted Jesus
Christ as my one loving savior? You know, I don't
know where I fall on all that. Like, other

(14:08):
religions won't have access to heaven or
salvation. My brain can't understand that if God
is love, why someone would arrive. If there is an
afterlife to a judgmental God. So I could never
make sense of that, like, that this aspect of
Christianity meant that you have to be superior
or there's a righteousness to it. So I remember

(14:29):
her saying, the nature of Christianity is not to
be Christian enough. It's, are you comfortable
with these teachings, you know, which is
reflective of the organization? Are you
comfortable working with children around Jesus
being a leader and the message of Christ, which
is love and compassion? And I was like, oh, yeah,
that's my favorite part. I love teaching the
teachings that God is love is what a great

(14:50):
definition and what a wonderful thing to teach
young people. But it really is that idea for me,
as I was employed there and working with my own
faith and having, you know, my young family and
thinking about all these ideas, because I was now
our mother, you know, having to teach ideas to my
own children. Do we put someone's Christianity

(15:10):
above their humanity? And that's kind of to your
point of, like, what are we centered on? I want
to be centered on the fact that we're all human
together. And that. That definition, that's the
biggest definition. And then our various ways of
thinking about Christianity or maybe other ways
to express our spirituality or our faith can all
fit there. It's big enough. But I love that

(15:31):
you're engaged with that idea. It's important
right now.

Drew Sams (15:34):
Totally. Yeah. And what's so beautiful about that
and that response that was given to you, if
you're like a hardcore student in the Bible, you
would go to all these places and say, well,
exactly. Like, look at the Apostle Paul, right?
Catholics will call him St. Paul. Right? Like,
amazing hero of the faith who did all these

(15:55):
amazing things. Right. Well, what did he say? The
Book of Romans has him. He wrote that letter to
the church in Rome, and he basically says, oh,
the things I want to do, I still don't do. Yeah,
the things I don't want to do, I still do. Oh,
this. This wretch that I am, like, who will
rescue me. How amazing that he models to us, this

(16:17):
humility. He does not come across as, like, I
have it all together. He does not come across as,
you've got to be perfect. You got to be Christian
enough.

Yes.

Drew Sams (16:25):
What does that mean? Right. He even said about
himself, I'm the chief of all sinners. And I know
sin is like a big. That's a. That's got a lot of
baggage for a lot of people, but essentially he's
saying, like, I am not perfect, and it's in my
weakness and in my, you know, shortcomings that
God's love can be poured in me and through me.

(16:46):
When you study the teachings of Jesus, it is so
different, sadly than such the misguided teaching
of some of Christians today or what the
perception is of what a Christian should be like.
Talk about a gap between the actual historical
Jesus and how he wrongly gets misinterpreted or

(17:08):
misrepresented today.

Yeah, well, that was one of the blessings of my
experience as a teacher is because once I got in
the classroom and the experience with children,
the wonder and the open mindedness and our
natural inclination to be collaborative, to be
creative, to work together, to accept each
other's differences, which are all tenets of
Christianity and quite frankly a lot of the world

(17:31):
religions, tolerance and compassion and mercy.
And so once I was in the role, it was like that
question became less and less important to me.
Less and less of a barrier. Yeah. Because then
you're to your point that you said earlier you're
living your faith.

Drew Sams (17:49):
Yes. Yeah. And did you find in your experience
not only of teaching but also being a parent,
that you learned about maybe the character of God
or your faith was enhanced, it was deepened
through the lens of these kids, whether they're
your biological children or these kids you've
been entrusted by other guardians and parents,

(18:11):
you know, to teach?

Yeah, I think the word is love. It feels like one
of the ideas that we get from a young age and at
least the Christianity that was introduced to me
is that you have to prove or you have to be that
word enough or you have to change some way that
you are so that God accepts you. And I think when
you're really living your faith, it's the exact

(18:34):
opposite. That the thing that makes it possible
for a person to change is love. And I think
children are so generous with their love. They're
so pure. Yeah, so pure.

Drew Sams (18:47):
Well, it's, it's a matter of order. Right. So
like I often say in my context that human made
religion is spelled D O do. Yes, you gotta do
this, you gotta do this, you gotta do this, you
gotta do this, you gotta do this, you gotta do
this. And then hopefully one day you make it in,
then you're loved, you know, and we do the right

(19:08):
thing and we're in and you don't do the right
thing and you're out. That gets back to the
bounded set. But I've said in contrast, faith in
God is spelled D O N E. It's done. There's
nothing for you to do. You just simply respond to
what's already been done. God from a Christian
point of view, you know, spoke the cosmos into

(19:28):
existence. I also love science, so I actually
don't see science in the Bible contradicting one
another, but actually complementing one another.
Can I do like a little rabbit trail for a second
on that piece? Because I think this is something
I've wrestled with stutters. In the Hebrew
scriptures of the Old Testament, it talks about
the creation of all things. And translated from

(19:51):
the Hebrew into the English, there's the first
day and the second day and the third day and the
fourth day and the fifth day and the sixth day,
and then God rests on the seventh day. And so if
you translate day as a 24 hour period, that seems
like, wow, you just covered a lot of ground in
six days. What, you know, then what do we do with

(20:12):
carbon dating? What do we do with, you know, the
fossil record? What do we do with all those
things? And so some people then see science in
contrast to faith. You're either a person of
science or you're a person of faith. And there's
this dichotomy that I believe is a false
dichotomy because what many people don't realize
is that the word that we translate in a day can
either mean a 24 hour period or it can mean a

(20:34):
length of time. And that length of time can be
eons.

Yeah.

Drew Sams (20:39):
And what's really interesting is the order in
which the creation account occurs. If it's eons
of time, it actually follows the carbon dating
record that we have and it follows the fossil
record that we have. And actually you can fit the
creation account within the guest. What is it,

(21:03):
4.3 billion years of carbon dating that we think
since, like I like to say, I completely believe
in the Big Bang theory.

Yeah.

Drew Sams (21:12):
That something as a catalyst began the expansion
of the universe and it's been expanding ever
since. As a Christian, I just happen to know what
it sounded like. Let there be light.

Yeah.

Drew Sams (21:26):
And so it's interesting in the Psalms, it also
talks about the universe is unfolding like a
tent. And so even like that poetry that's used,
you know, how mysterious that even before they
understood the expansion of the universe, there
was somehow this wisdom, this mystery of, you
know, all things. So anyway, that this idea of

(21:47):
this expansive nature and being able to have
science and faith coming together has been deeply
encouraging to me. But there's like a pursuit
that is willing to go deeper than just the
headlines because again, I'll just go back to it.
Like in society now, it's like you're either on
this side or you're on this side. Well, hold on.

(22:09):
And I'm just a very inquisitive by nature person.
I don't know if you know this. The cells in your
body and the cells in my body, there's trillions
of them. There's actually more non human cells
than there are human cells in your body.

I did not know that.

Drew Sams (22:23):
Yeah. So you can Google this. You can look it up.
I always say fact check, fact check, fact check.
But the amount of bacteria.

Yeah.

Drew Sams (22:33):
And fungal cells that you have in your body
outnumbers human cells.

Interesting.

Drew Sams (22:38):
The science is discovering the vast amount of
life that is non human in you and me through the
discovery of the gut biome.

Yeah.

Drew Sams (22:48):
That is from the earth. And what's really
interesting is now a lot of scientists are saying
it's more like we're a rainforest, we're more
like an ecosystem. And, you know, gut health
really affects mental health and emotional health
and all these things. Right. Well, isn't it
interesting that in the Hebrew language, in
Genesis 2, it describes that God. Very poetic.

(23:09):
Right. God reaches into the ground and pulls out
of the ground from the earth creature.

Yes.

Drew Sams (23:15):
Is literally how it's described. And so, yeah,
there's just like all this. So I don't know, I
just. It's the curiosity in me that helps me
discover these things. And that's been fun in a
community that I never really understood as a kid.

Yeah.

Drew Sams (23:30):
And. And kids ask the best questions and that's
what's so beautiful, you know? And I feel like we
as adults can learn so much from our kids and the
kids that we're around and how they ask.

And then you learn about yourself because then
you're in the position to answer. I always think
that's one of the really humbling things about
being a parent or being a teacher. It's like you
receive the question, you have to think, and then
words are coming out of your mouth to answer and
you're like, wow, okay. That's what I'm saying.
That's what I believe. And it's. It's an

(24:02):
invitation to clarify and understand what you've
been believing because that certainly has
indicated how you've been acting, you know, so it
really is an invitation to be the role model. And
I think that's one of the most powerful things we
have as a parent and as an adult is to model the
behavior that we wish for these younger people to.

Drew Sams (24:22):
Yeah.

To be.

Drew Sams (24:23):
What you just said reminded me of. There was a
stat I read recently that 97% of kids age 5
believe they're highly creative.

Yeah.

Drew Sams (24:34):
And 97% of adults believe they're not creative.

Yeah.

Drew Sams (24:39):
What happened? To go from such a pendulum swing,
and it's almost like as we grow up, we're almost
told incorrectly to not ask those questions or.
No, no, no, no. Like, no, no, no. We've already
figured that out. And that's where I feel like
some of the modeling that you were talking about
can be coming back to a childlike wonder of the

(24:59):
world around us. A curiosity, a graciousness.
It's really beautiful.

When you were talking about reconciling science
and religion, I have a curiosity about your line
of work. I wonder, is part of your job to expand
our understanding of scripture and to help people
reframe and, you know, elevate their level of
consciousness around it? Because it seems to me

(25:26):
that so much of the harm of organized religion,
and specifically Christianity, has come from
literal definitions or misinterpretations of this
historical text. And the way that you're. Yeah,
the way you're thinking about it, did you
anticipate that that would be part of your job?
Did you know that when you were going into this

(25:46):
role?

Drew Sams (25:47):
I would say I didn't know it to the extent of
how. Almost every single conversation I have has
to do with that. Name a topic off the top of your
head that you feel is really expansive and robust
out in the world. It has nothing to do with
scripture, has nothing to do with faith, but just
any topic that you feel like is a really big

(26:07):
topic.

I think the one that we've named earlier is just
who gets to call themselves a Christian. You
know, who are you? There's a righteousness around
organized religion. If somebody comes to you
who's a part of the church community and is
either very righteous, like that other member
isn't Christian enough, or that other member is

(26:28):
living a lifestyle that I don't agree with. What
can you say to the rigidity of that thinking or
like the pain that that person's in because they
feel love? Another. Another person?

Drew Sams (26:40):
Well, you keyed on what the last thing you said.
The pain of that person, often it is. Comes from
a place of hurt, comes from a place of
protectiveness. And so often my approach is the
approach of curiosity and asking questions. Help
me understand. So are you saying that a preacher
has to wear a tie, has to have a shaved face for

(27:04):
them to be worthy to preach God's word?
Absolutely. How come, Drew. How come you don't
shave? How come you don't wear a tie? You know,
the people have come to me over the years. I'll
say. So are you saying that a beard is more
powerful than the love of God? Well, I'm not
saying that. Well, but it sounds like you're
saying if I have a beard, it somehow prevents

(27:25):
God's word to be preached. I try to, like, just
hold a mirror up.

Yeah.

Drew Sams (27:28):
And then they're like, well, okay, I see what
you're saying there. You know, and I often find
that people's preferences become the center.

Yeah.

Drew Sams (27:41):
You know how we talked about centered set and
bounded set, you know, so it's like just trying
to get to what's the center of your faith, or
another way to say it is, what's the foundation
of your faith? And some. Some people, they've
settled for such a counterfeit or shadow or
reduced version of a loving God, and it's down to

(28:02):
whatever it is. And it can be a million things.
Right. And I have to be very careful not to write
that person off.

Yes.

Drew Sams (28:09):
And not to do the thing that I'm critiquing them
of doing, but to come alongside them as people
have come alongside me. Right. And a little bit
of grace and truth kind of gently kind of guide
them, you know, in another way. But it is true
that so often people's agenda or their
perspective is the center, and therefore they use

(28:32):
verses in scripture completely out of context,
out of context of the chapter that it's in, out
of the cultural context that it was in, in
whatever part in world history that is, and
completely misusing it for their purpose. So
going back to your original question, it is fun
to help people expand their view of what is going

(28:53):
on, even to understand how many different genres
of writing there are in Scripture. All of it is
not an eyewitness account. Some of it is poetry.

Yeah.

Drew Sams (29:05):
Some of it is what's called apocalyptic writing,
which. That's a big word, but it uses signs and
symbols, metaphors, vivid imagery to communicate
truth.

Yeah.

Drew Sams (29:15):
So the metaphor I often give is, you know, what
would happen if you and I went back in time to,
like, the 1800s, and we tried to describe what it
was like to watch planes take off and land at
lax. And we had to use language that they
understood. Likely we wouldn't be able to do it.

Yeah.

Drew Sams (29:37):
So let's say we said, okay, well, let's take
somebody from the 1800s with us back to modern
day. Right. We'll take them to lax. We'll sit it
in and out. Right.

I know exactly where it is.

Drew Sams (29:48):
Plants. Right. You know, well, have them Witness
it. They're going to be shocked, overwhelmed,
can't understand what they're seeing. And then
they go back and, I mean, how would they describe
it? They might say there was these metal birds.

Yeah.

Drew Sams (29:59):
That came out of the sky out of nowhere. And they
were huge, bigger than any castle I've seen. And
they landed, and this thing came out of the side
of them and sucked people into it. I mean, it
would be horrifying. Right. And so when you read
certain books of the Bible, you're like, what on
earth is this? Like, this does not make sense.
And some of it is trying to use words and images

(30:23):
and colors and numbers and metaphors to describe
something that when you understand the historical
context, it's like, oh, it's just describing this.

Yes.

Drew Sams (30:32):
Oh, okay. That makes sense. You know?

Is that what happened?

Drew Sams (30:35):
Oh, it's a metaphor.

Exactly. Is that what happened when you went to
study? I'm assuming that you had some sort of
interaction that got you interested in going to
study theology.

Drew Sams (30:45):
So the short story of that was in college, I just
met these people who call themselves Christian,
who seemed normal, who were fun, who partied, but
who also went out and served homeless on skid
row. And they made mistakes, but then they asked
for forgiveness. What? Like, people don't. It was
just like this weird, you know, like, this

(31:07):
doesn't make sense. And it seemed like as college
kids, their faith mattered to them, and. And they
gathered together and studied the Bible, but they
weren't weird, you know? And I started hanging
out with that group, and then I started
volunteering, working with high school kids. And
then people were like, you should. You should,
like, do this for a living. I'm like, no, I'm in

(31:27):
business school in usc. No, you know, like, I've
got my own plans. And then I worked for a summer
up at a camp as a camp counselor. And the people
there were like, you should seriously think about
becoming a pastor. I'm like, no way. You know?
And I ended up graduating USC not knowing what I
was going to do. And I ended up hearing that
there was this school in Pasadena, Florida

(31:49):
Theological Seminary, that also had a school of
psychology. Well, I didn't mention that. I
switched majors from business to psychology. Got
a business minor, psychology major. And then I
had in my mind, maybe I'll go into, like,
Christian counseling or something. Like, you
know, I've seen a lot of trauma. I've seen a lot
of heartache. Like, I'm drawn towards kids in
crisis, you know, addiction, you know, suicidal

(32:11):
tendencies. Like, maybe I'll Go that direction.
Ended up applying to the School of psychology.
Got in, went to orientation. The end of
orientation, everybody in my group who I never
met before was like, have you ever thought about
becoming a pastor? I'm like, who are you people?
Like, why do people keep saying this?

You can't ignore it.

Drew Sams (32:27):
I can't ignore it. And then I ended up switching
to the school theology, Moved at home with my
parents because I'm out of college. I'm waiting
tables at a restaurant in Pasadena and, you know,
just wondering, like, what am I going to do? You
know, still volunteering. And I'm going to say a
story to you. And I know this sounds so crazy,
and I wouldn't believe me if I was listening, but

(32:49):
as real as this conversation is this experience.
And I've never had anything happen like this
before. So this is like, I love stuff like this.
Yeah, it's still, like, hard to amend. So, you
know, my friends were business school majors.
They're driving nice cars or traveling to New
York. Like, they're buying apartments and homes.

(33:09):
And I'm back home with my parents waiting tables.
USC grad, volunteering, going to seminary. Like,
what just happened with my life? And so now I'm
like, am I going the right way?

Yeah.

Drew Sams (33:20):
And I just remember at that point, praying, God,
am I going the right way? Is this the right way?
And for some reason, like, that was the prayer.
Am I going the right way? And I ended up leaving
class one day and I'm just kind of in my head and
like, gosh, am I going the right way in life? I
don't know. And I'm walking down the sidewalk and
I go to a local coffee shop. It happens to be a

(33:42):
Starbucks in Pasadena, and it's on Colorado
Boulevard near the Paseo. Some people might know
this area. And it's kind of a unique coffee shop
in the sense that there's no store next to it.
It's like a huge concrete wall. One direction
that's part of a parking structure and a huge
concrete wall. The. That's the lower floor of

(34:04):
what's like an upper level kind of outdoor mall.
There's only one door and there's nothing else.
Right. And so I'm going on the sidewalk. Am I
going the right way? Am I going the right way?
And then I go into the door. And you. Have you
ever had those moments where you're going in and
somebody's going out? You kind of like, do the
thing at the same time. So I had that experience,
but I'm so in my Head. I'm not looking up. I'm
not making eye contact. I'm just trying to get

(34:25):
around them, you know? And this person said to
me, oh, you're great. You're going the right way.
And I get past them, and I stop, and I'm like, no
one ever says it that way.

Yeah.

Drew Sams (34:36):
And I was just thinking, am I going the right
way? And then I stepped back out of the sidewalk,
and no one was there.

Oh, wow.

Drew Sams (34:44):
So I'm like. I'm just standing on the sidewalk,
and I'm like, what was that? God?

Yeah.

Drew Sams (34:52):
And this is where, you know, faith. The Bible
says faith is believing in things unseen. And,
you know, I just. I remember that moment, and I
just said, okay, God, I'm just going to have
faith that somehow you wanted me to know I'm
going the right way. And it could have just been
a random. It just happened to be. Who knows?
Right?

That's what faith is all about.

Drew Sams (35:13):
Who knows? It could. I don't know. Big mystery.
That's one of the many questions I have for God.
Like, who was that? What was that? Right. And I
look back on that moment, and what's so crazy is
I stayed in seminary. He was probably. A month
later, the head of the high school ministry at
Bel Air said, hey, I'm moving to San Diego. I'm

(35:34):
taking a position down there, and there's going
to be a search for the permanent position. I'd
like to recommend you to the hiring committee as
the interim leader for, like, a year. Would you
be willing to do it? And I'm like, that'd be
amazing. Did that for a year. Fell in love with
it. The year wrapped up. I wasn't eligible for
the permanent position. They really wanted to
have the interim anyway. Ended up working for

(35:55):
another church, Calvary community church, for 10
years as the high school pastor and then student
ministries pastor and then a teaching pastor. And
then I had a former high school kid from the
youth group at Bel Air when I was the interim,
reach out to me. And he's like, hey, I'd love to
have breakfast with you. Great. Let's get
together. We got together, and he says, hey, I'm
on the search committee for the next senior

(36:17):
pastor. What do you think? And I said, jordan,
that's amazing. I mean, you're probably the
youngest person on the committee. And he's like,
no, no, no. I'm asking you, like, what do you
think? And I'm like, oh, well, just pray about
it. Like, you know, you'll. You'll find the Right
person. And he kept on saying like, no, no, what
do you think? And I'm like, I think it's great
they asked you to be part of it. And he said, no,
I'm asking, what do you think about applying for

(36:38):
the position? It was totally going over my head
and I'm like, I'm not qualified for that. Like,
I've never been a senior pastor. He's like,
exactly. That's why you're perfect for it.

Yeah.

Drew Sams (36:48):
Long story short, I was the second choice. The
first choice ended up choosing somewhere else.
They settled for me and I've been there for 11
years, so who would have thought? Yeah, you know,
it wasn't definitely going back to your point.
Like it was not programmed into the script. It
wasn't like, here's my plan, you know.

Yes, well, what.

Drew Sams (37:08):
It's a bit surprising, but it's been beautiful in
that way.

And what I'm loving about your story is that so
much of what we have needed in the church these
days is flexibility. What we've needed is someone
to be more nimble and open minded and visionary.
Like how to captivate people's attention, how to
turn churches into community centers rather than

(37:34):
just these places of rigidity where their trauma
comes forward and then it becomes. The church is
this awful place when historically the church has
been to that point of centering. It's been a very
centering presence. And in my experience of
working with human beings, we're never going to
not seek purpose and meaning and understanding.
And often that comes through spirituality,

(37:57):
whether that's religion, whether that's
spirituality through the body and practices. But
I just don't see that conversation is going away
now. The church is changing and that needs some
creativity there. So it's. What's sticking with
me about your story is that it's kind of nice
that you've had this freedom of thought because
you haven't been raised in this little box. You

(38:21):
didn't expect of yourself to have this position,
to have this kind of influence. So you're
arriving to this place with a little, maybe a
little bit more liberated than somebody else
would be if they were very attached to the old
ways of being. Because all the church really
needs is a new way of being. That's the number
one thing that the church needs.

Drew Sams (38:43):
Well, I'll give you an example and it kind of
goes back to your question about calling and
understanding of calling. And I'll go answer that
question through an experience in the pandemic.
So 2020 hit, you know, in LA, had a big shutdown
and some church leaders and, and maybe some of
your listeners saw this in the news, you know,

(39:04):
like they went full on legal route, like we are
the church, we are essential. Like we're not
going to stop meeting. And because I understand a
sense of call as an invitation to follow Jesus
rather than the call is meet in a building every

(39:26):
Sunday between 11am and 12:15pm when some pastors
were saying like, no, the church has to meet the
church. And I, and then I was like, doesn't,
shouldn't we as followers of Jesus care for our
neighbors and wouldn't it be wise for us? And

(39:48):
again, we didn't know what we didn't know. It's
easy to look back on like March 2020, knowing
what we know today. And I'm sure there's all your
listeners have a variety of perspectives which I
deeply respect. And at the time I'm thinking I am
a leader of a community of people that gathers
together on Sundays. There is this unprecedented
at the time, you know, pandemic coming through,

(40:11):
highly contagious, not knowing what's going on.
And I actually helped make the decision to close
our doors a week before Los Angeles mandated it.
And I said, we need to help people and use this
as an opportunity to remind them this is all
about their relationship with God, not about
getting together for a week on Sunday. So how can

(40:32):
we encourage people, how can we come alongside
people without needing to gather together in
person? And we pivoted because the rigidity of it
has to look this way just doesn't exist because
it's like, Jesus, what are you doing? And so we
actually grew in that time and we now have a

(40:52):
reach that we never had before. And I say every
single week, church is not a building, it's not
an hour and Sunday, it's a community of people
defined by the reality of who Jesus is. And if
you're curious, we want to welcome you here, you
know, if you don't know who Jesus is, we want him
to be experienced here. But it is not a building.
It's not an hour on Sunday, it's not a list of

(41:12):
do's and don'ts. And that call is dynamic. And so
it's like any relationship, there's chapters in
that relationship, like with your kids, with your
spouse, you know, with your parents, with your
extended family. It's, can you imagine how boring
it would be if it was like clockwork, the same,
right? You know, and I just think of that as like

(41:34):
our relationship with God. There's ebbs and flows
and there's seasons of. It feels like winter.
There's no leaves on the tree. There's no fruit.
Like this feels barren. And that's okay.

Yeah.

Drew Sams (41:46):
You know, that doesn't mean something's wrong.
You haven't done something wrong. Right. So a lot
of it is helping people reimagine life.

That's right.

Drew Sams (41:57):
Through that lens, which is a lot of fun.

And how now, at this stage in your faith journey,
your professional journey, your human journey,
how do you keep your own faith? You know, you're
in charge of cultivating faith for others. What
connects you most deeply to your own?

Drew Sams (42:15):
I think I read, speaking of the pandemic, I
rediscovered this. And like I mentioned in the
very beginning, my mom was a total adventurer,
loved the outdoors. Some of my earliest memories
are going on hikes and going up in the mountains
in the Angeles National Forest. And I love to

(42:37):
surf, and I love to be out in the mountains. And
I love. I love it, love it, love it, love it. And
as I took on the role of senior pastor, I wrongly
came to the conclusion, I don't have time for
that anymore. And what's interesting about our
modern world is there's apps that track your

(43:01):
activities, steps, and there's this thing called
Strava that runners and cycles have. Right. So I
would post on that, and this is, like, how messed
up my mind got. I felt like if people saw my
Strava post, even if it was around the morning,
then they would think, oh, he's not taking his
job seriously. Like, he has time for, like, how

(43:22):
weird is that? I came to that conclusion. Right.
Or I could have just not tracked it. Right. So I
just kind of stopped going outside and stopped
doing that. And I found that was the worst thing
for me.

Yeah.

Drew Sams (43:36):
Because it became about the doing.

Yeah.

Drew Sams (43:41):
And the leading and the meeting and the
counseling and the decision making. And it was
like 100% of my time went to, what am I doing for
God and for people? Rather than cultivating that
relationship.

Yeah.

Drew Sams (43:56):
And it took the pandemic and the shutdown and me
coping by, like, I need to get outside, and I
need to go on walks, and I need to get out in
creation, and I'm going to invite other people in
it. And I filmed these things called psalm walks,
and I posted it on Instagram, and I would just go
for a walk, and I would read a psalm, you know,

(44:17):
from the Old Testament. There's more psalms of
lament than there are psalms of praise, which is
kind of cool. It's like, God, where are you, you
know, and so it was just me coping. And in that,
I was like, wow. I realized that I connect so
much with God out in nature. And actually, the
more that I know about scripture, even more so do

(44:41):
I connect with God in nature. Because so much of
scripture is describing God's character through
nature. Your faithfulness is like the mighty
mountains. Your justice is like the ocean's deep.
And so now it's like triggering scripture
passages when I see the birds of the air that
praise you and the heavens declaring the glory of
God. And, you know, all these things. And so now

(45:01):
I have to spend time with God out in nature. And
in doing so, I'm a better husband, a better
father, and so just the rhythm of my life. I like
to get up early before everybody else is up, and
I'm on the trail. I've been trail running. That's
something that you don't know since.

Since we were neighbors and you were packing up
your car to camp all the time.

Drew Sams (45:24):
I know, I know.

Totally.

Drew Sams (45:26):
All the time. So now I just. I'm out trail
running and I do distance running. I just tried
my first 100 mile race in Arizona. Didn't finish.
Made it 41 miles. But even that was so great
because it made me realize, gosh, it's so easy to
fall into this lie. And I feel like this is a big
cultural thing to only do things that you know
that you'll finish, that you know that you'll be

(45:46):
good at, that you'll be comfortable in. When so
much of life is about doing hard things and
taking risks and being okay with failing and not.
And learning from that. Right. And so I'd much
rather have a did not finish rather than it did
not start.

Yes.

Drew Sams (46:03):
You know?

Yes.

Drew Sams (46:04):
And so I was willing to show up, and even though
it was 95 degrees and at elevation, nausea and
thrown up like, it was a beautiful experience
that I don't have zero regret. So it just. I
learn a lot.

Yeah.

Drew Sams (46:16):
And so much of the clarity in my life comes from
taking that margin out on the trail outside. And
even when I don't have time for that, it's just
like, okay, I need to just pull over for a second
away from the cars, away from the noise, turn off
the phone, and just like, look up at the sky for
a moment. So that's where I, you know, faith for

(46:38):
me has really lately been.

Yes.

Drew Sams (46:41):
Out in creation.

Do you find that nature, then is also where you
go if you have doubt? I mean, you're in the
position to answer questions. So you're answering
questions. You're also helping people come to
their own answers. Of course. But you are in a
position to have a point of view. So I would
think that not only just connecting with your
faith in general, but it's even a step further.

(47:03):
It's like having a stance on something taking a
point of view. You're in a vulnerable position
there for a thousand reasons that we would need
three other hours to speak about regarding
religion and church and our culture. Just the
nature of. We have no mercy these days.

Drew Sams (47:19):
So it's.

It feels like it's a particularly heated moment
in time. Richard Rohr is one of my favorite
spiritual teachers. The best.

Drew Sams (47:28):
Yes.

And he was absolutely the one that brought me to
this essential question of your faith and this
idea that faith and doubt are not opposites. So
engaging questions and engaging what you doubt,
kind of questioning your certainty, you know,

(47:50):
like, how certain are you? And can you be humble?

Drew Sams (47:53):
What's so amazing? What's so amazing where you
just went before you brought up ritual roll. My
response was about to be a point of view and
certainty are not synonyms. So to have a point of
view does not mean that there's this rigid
certainty of black and white.

Yeah.

Drew Sams (48:13):
So it's kind of saying what Richard Rohr says
from the other side of the coin, which is that a
point of view can involve a great sense of
mystery, can involve a great sense of questions,
can involve doubt, can involve aspects of
certainty. It's the whole thing. And you know,

(48:34):
often when people say, okay, I've got a question
for you, and I'll say, I may or may not have an
answer for you, but I'm curious points in my life
that some might call a crisis of faith that
actually I had to go through to have deeper
faith. Were younger brother died of an accidental
drug overdose when he was 19 and held that in.

(48:57):
Could not process that. Was angry at God. Why
would you let this happen? All the emotions, but
all under the surface. And I was a younger
Christian at that time, in my early 20s, didn't
know how to process it. And so people are like,
how you doing? I'm good. I'm fine. And, wow,
you're doing so well. Like, that's so amazing.
Then it became this false veneer Persona.

Yeah, you're getting the reward.

Drew Sams (49:23):
I'm getting affirmation of, like, wow. Like,
you're handling it so well.

Your faith is so strong.

Drew Sams (49:29):
Exactly. And that's where things can really
unravel really quickly because it's. People don't
really know. They think they're being
encouraging, but it actually can perpetuate just
a really unhealthy. And it took some really close
friends who were much more mature in their faith,
who were like, this is not healthy, Drew. Rather
than, you're doing great. It's like, tell me,

(49:49):
like, what? Yeah, you have to be mad at God. And
I thought, I can't be mad at God. And they're
like, I'd be mad at God. I'm like. And then
they're like, have you ever read Psalm 13? And
I'm like, no. What's Psalm 13? Then open it up.
In Psalm 13. I can always remember Psalm 13.
Unlucky 13. Right. King David, he's got a whole
bunch of issues. Right. He's remembered for a lot
of things, makes a lot of mistakes. But he's

(50:12):
described as a man after God's heart. What does
that mean? Does not mean he's perfect, but it
seems like he longed for God. Even when he made
mistakes, he turned back to God and on and on.
But in Psalm 13, he writes, how long, O Lord,
will you forget me forever? How long will you
hide your face from me? How long will you let my

(50:32):
enemies triumph over me? How long will I sleep
the sleep of death? And I remember reading that,
thinking, you can say that to God. This is
included in Scripture. And then I found more and
more passages that were like, God, where are you?
You're silent. You know, you've abandoned me. And
I'm like, you can say that to God. And then I
began to realize, oh, like, this is what faith

(50:55):
is. It's bringing your doubts before God,
bringing your emotions before God. It's having
faith that God is big enough to handle me shaking
my fist at God.

Yeah.

Drew Sams (51:08):
You know, and what's beautiful at the end of
Psalm 13 is, but I will trust in your unfailing
love. I will sing of your salvation, for you have
been good to me. So it's like, even though I
don't feel it now, I'm going to remember that
you've been faithful before. So I'm still going
to sing, but it's probably going to be through,
you know, tears. And so, like, the range of

(51:30):
emotions that God long. And then it makes me
think, now that I have two boys, I'd much rather
them come to me angry, sad, disappointed, hurt,
frustrated, than to discover they've been
harboring that on their own.

Yeah.

Drew Sams (51:47):
Never bringing it to me.

Yeah.

Drew Sams (51:49):
I would much rather have my kids angry and
communicate it to me, because at least they've
come to me. I'D be so proud of them for them to
be able to communicate that emotion to me, you
know? And so I think, oh, now I get a little
glimpse of what it's like for God, who's
described as a father, for us, as children just
come before doubts, fears, uncertainties, anger,
you know, and that's actually deep in my faith

(52:11):
and encourage my faith. So often the point of
view when people bring questions is how beautiful
that God meets you in the midst of whatever
you're navigating, whatever you're going through.

I want to end on a question for you that has
stuck with my memory. It was an interaction we
had up at Bel Air Church, and it was. I think I
had stopped teaching full time. I was just doing
the Mommy and Me program, which is up by the
cafe, and the cafe was new, and we ran into each
other outside, and we hadn't had that many
interactions at the church yet. I think this was

(52:44):
before you lived on my street and we became
neighbors. And as is very clear with both of us,
we can get into a deep conversation right away.
So I don't remember what it was that I shared
with you. Maybe I had, like, written a blog or
maybe I had something on my mind. But of course,
I see your face, and I'm immediately like, I'm
gonna tell Drew this or ask Drew this. And it was
something about doubt and faith, something to

(53:05):
that extent. And you go, you know, Paige, I did
my dissertation on the word remember in the
Bible. And then you proceeded to give me a few
more insights to the work that you had done in
graduate school. And that remember is the most
common word in the Bible. So we probably talked
for, like, a full eight minutes, and I just
remember that line. But I think that's on purpose

(53:28):
because it stuck with me. It was that significant
to me, and I've really embraced that idea. I feel
like one of the hardest things about faith is
that it's slippery. And one of the best things
about faith is that you get to remember it. So
it's.

Drew Sams (53:47):
That's so beautiful through your hands.

I'm like, where is my faith right now? Why am I
in. Why do I have tension towards this? My
husband or my children, or an idea I'm struggling
with? Or why do I even have fear or anxiety right
now? Where is my faith? And then, like you,
oftentimes for me, it's outside, it's looking at
the sky, it's looking at a tree, it's feeling a

(54:11):
breeze, it's noticing an insect. And then when
you remember it I have a theory. I want to hear
your idea on this, that it comes back stronger
when you remember it. It's like over time because
we get to remember it so much. The process of
remembering it is actually a strengthening
process. Will you talk to our listeners about the

(54:33):
word remember and why you felt so compelled to
write about that? And really, to me, that's one
of the foundations of your teachings and your
message at the church.

Drew Sams (54:42):
Well, what great memory you have on that, you
know, how amazing. So the word believe, I mean,
that's an important word I would imagine, right?

Oh, for sure.

Drew Sams (54:52):
The word remember outnumbers the word believe
five times to one.

Yeah, Trust.

Drew Sams (54:59):
I mean, that's an important word, right? Remember
outnumbers the word trust two to one in the Bible.

Wow.

Drew Sams (55:06):
And my whole dissertation was that when we forget
who we are, who God is, you know, purpose,
meaning, things begin to unravel. And what you
spoke to earlier about, you know, all these
misrepresented, all the awful things that have
been done in the name of God throughout world

(55:26):
history that are happening today, where it's been
co opted by a political party, by an agenda, by
whatever it is, that's because someone and people
have forgotten what it's all about, right? And so
everything unravels when we forget. We become
dismembered, things get broken. And I'll go back

(55:47):
to science. You know, they've shown that when
bone breaks and then heals again, it actually
heals back stronger. And so your theory, I think
is absolutely right, that when we forget, which
is, you know, the word amnesia, when we've
forgotten, there's another word that people
aren't very familiar with. It's an amnesia. So

(56:09):
you just put the letters A N in front of amnesia.
It's remembering what's been forgotten. And when
you remember what's been forgotten, it's almost
like finding what's been lost. And if you love
something and you love it, but if you lose it,
and especially if it's something precious and you
find it, there's a deeper sense of gratitude,

(56:31):
like, oh my gosh, I thought I would never see
this again. I found it. So often what has been
lost and then found again is deeper, richer. And
I really believe what's been forgotten and then
remembered, it's like this bone that's now
stronger, it's muscle that's now been
strengthened. Because even like your muscles,
when you work out, you're breaking down the

(56:54):
fibers in your muscle, but they grow back
stronger. That's how we build muscle. And so this
process of forgetting and remembering and
forgetting and remembering. I think happens
thousands of times in a day.

Yes. Same.

Drew Sams (57:07):
So there's a lot of opportunities for our faith
to grow. Oh, yeah. That's what matters. Oh, yeah.
That's. That. That's the truth of who I am. I am
not my education level. I'm not my health, I'm
not my reputation. Like, there's truer things
about me than my zip code, than whatever it might
be. When I remember those things. Oh, yeah. Then

(57:29):
I'm more whole.

Yeah.

Drew Sams (57:30):
So we get dismembered and then remembered back
together. And so I think if you surround yourself
with people that can help you remember, those are
the best friends to have.

Yeah.

Drew Sams (57:41):
Like, you know, you are beloved. You are worthy.
You know, you are. No, keep going. You know. Yes.
It's hard. I'm with you in it. Yes. You know,
those are the good friends to have people that
help us remember the things that really matter.

Oh, that makes me feel so good. I'm. I might be
on the track to being a better Christian or a
Christian at all. Who knows?

Drew Sams (58:01):
Absolutely. A journey of faith, you know.

So about halfway through our conversation, Drew
says, what's the center of your faith? What's the
foundation of your faith? I've thought about
those questions so much. Some days I think I have
an answer, and other days I'm not so sure about
the center of my faith or the foundation of my
faith. It's such a great question. And that's one
of the things I learned from Drew. To question is

(58:25):
an act of faith. To seek more understanding and
context around the stories we tell is so
important, whether they're stories from the Bible
or any historical sacred text or the stories that
define our lives about ourselves, about our
families. I love how Drew stands for a lived out
faith. A real, rugged, weathered, natural kind of
faith. One that includes doubt and mystery and

(58:47):
aspects of certainty. I love how Drew stands for
a remembered faith. And I'm really inspired by
Drew's relationship to God. There's an embodiment
to his faith. He's found a way to accept his
humanity because he defines God as big enough to
hold that humanity. If we can believe in a God
that big, it does make room for more of the
painful and confusing parts of life to belong. It

(59:10):
makes room for peace. And lastly, this was a real
nugget for me. Human made religion is spelled D
O. Faith in God is spelled D O N E. I hope you
walk away with that one. You don't have to do
anything to prove or earn your faith, it's done.
You were and are and will always be loved. Thank

(59:31):
you Drew for sharing your faith with us, for
standing in your questions, and for your
willingness to go deeper than a headline and stay
curious as you seek more understanding. I'm so
glad you're leading a church community and
reminding us what this idea of God and the
teachings of Jesus are all about. By you living
out your faith as a leader, you inspire us to

(59:53):
live out ours with more courage and consistency.
Faith really does grow with some guidance and
togetherness. If you would like to hear and learn
more from Pastor Drew, you can find him in person
or online at Bel Air Presbyterian Church, which
will be linked in the show. Notes and Good News.
Drew is launching his own podcast in January,

(01:00:14):
rightly entitled at the Table, and it's going to
be a podcast where inspiring leaders unite to
explore the intersection of faith and work,
fostering respectful dialogue and diverse
perspectives. I can't wait for that. Okay y'all,
that's it for today. I will meet you here again
soon. Thanks to each of you for being here and

(01:00:36):
for listening. I'm so grateful we get to share
life in this way. As always, full show notes are
available available@pagenolan.com podcast. There
you will find a full summary of the episode,
timestamps and key takeaways, and any resources
mentioned in our conversation. If you enjoyed
this episode, I'd love if you would leave me a
rating and a review, you can do that by visiting

(01:00:58):
pagenolan.com love your reviews, really do help
people to discover the show. And if you know
someone specifically who would enjoy this
episode, I'm so grateful to have you all share.
I'll meet you there with your friends. Lastly, if
you have any questions or comments or if you
would like to share any feedback with me, please
email to meetmether page nolan.com I would love

(01:01:22):
to hear from you. Thank you to the team that
makes this show possible. Podcast production and
Marketing by North Node Podcast Network Music by
Boyd McDonnell Covered photography by Innes Casey
okay y'all, that's it for now. I'll meet you
there again soon.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}S1E12: Pastor Drew Sams: Balancing Tradition and Innovation in Faith