July 31, 2025 • 25 mins
In this episode, we’re exploring what smart sales leaders do before their top performers resign.
And joining Matt is Beth Sunshine, SVP/Talent Services at The Center for Sales Strategy.
Her contribution to the 2025 Talent Magazine highlights the importance of being ready long before turnover happens. And, here, she shares actionable ways to build that readiness into your talent strategy.
Beth brings so much wisdom to the table, including:
- Why it’s essential to protect the relationships with your people who leave, because “boomerang” employees are all too common
- How, when it comes to referrals, vague requests get vague results
- And, finally, why the only thing more expensive than making the wrong hire, is waiting too long to make the right one
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Matt Sunshine (00:05):
Welcome to Improving Sales Performance, a
podcast highlighting tips andinsights aimed at helping sales
organizations realize, and maybeeven exceed, their goals.
Here we chat with thoughtleaders, experts and gurus who
have years of sales experiencefrom a wide range of industries.
I'm your host, matt Sunshine,ceo at the Center for Sales
Strategy, a sales performanceconsulting company.
(00:27):
In this episode, we'reexploring what smart sales
leaders do before their topperformers resign, and joining
me is Beth Sunshine, senior VicePresident, talent Services at
the Center for Sales Strategy.
Her contribution to the 2025Talent Magazine highlights the
(00:52):
importance of being ready longbefore turnover actually happens
, and here she shares actionableways to build that readiness
into your talent strategy.
Beth brings so much wisdom tothe table, including why it's
essential to protect therelationships with your people
who leave, because boomerangemployees are all too common.
(01:15):
How, when it comes to referrals, vague requests get vague
results and, finally, why theonly thing more expensive than
making the wrong hire is waitingtoo long to make the right one.
All right, beth, let's jumpinto this.
(01:37):
First of all, congratulationson another amazing talent
magazine.
Overall, it just looksincredible.
I know that there are hardcopies as well as digital copies
, so everyone listening orwatching this make sure you do
(01:57):
whatever you can to get a copyof the talent magazine.
It's phenomenal.
I want to talk about yourarticle for a second.
So you open your article withthis scenario that hits home for
a lot of sales leaders or justleaders in general and here's
(02:18):
the scenario your top performerquits.
What should a smart manager doin those first few hours or days
to really respond well to thiscommon situation?
Beth Sunshine (02:34):
Yeah, common's right, and that moment's tough,
especially if it catches you offguard, which it often does.
But there's no need to panic.
A smart manager is going toreally smoothly move into what I
think of as four steps kind ofthe four step process to deal
with that unexpected departure.
(02:54):
First, you have to start byprotecting the relationship you
have with the person who'sleaving.
We're seeing so many boomerangincidents happen where an
employee who left is willing toreturn when that's a high
performer and they're returningafter exploring other
opportunities.
That can be a really good thingfor a company.
(03:15):
And that only happens when theyleave on good terms.
So you do want to allow them toleave on a good note.
And then you want to shift intolearning mode.
So find out what really led totheir decision to leave on a
good note.
And then you want to shift intolearning mode.
So find out what really led totheir decision to leave.
People rarely leave just for abetter paycheck, even though we
hear that a lot.
(03:35):
It's rarely the better paycheckthat does it.
If they find meaning, if theyfind growth and recognition
where they are, they're reallylikely to stay.
So you want to dig a little bitdeeper.
And then, third, you've got tostabilize your team.
You've got to be visible, checkin, have real conversations to
(03:55):
smooth any ripples that may havehappened.
And then finally and I thinkthis is something we're going to
probably dig into today youwant to turn to your talent bank
.
If it's well-maintained, if youhave strong candidates in there
waiting in the wings, it's timefor you to start making moves.
Matt Sunshine (04:12):
All right.
So let me just recap that Firstthing is make sure they leave
on a good note, because theboomerang does happen.
Beth Sunshine (04:19):
The boomerang is real.
Matt Sunshine (04:21):
It's real.
Take the time to learn why ithappened, stabilize and be
visible with your current teamand then, hopefully, you have a
strong talent bank and go toyour talent bank.
Beth Sunshine (04:35):
I think that's one great advice.
Matt Sunshine (04:37):
Yeah, Great, great solid action steps that
someone can take because peopledo leave.
Action steps that someone cantake because people do leave, it
does happen, yeah, All right.
My next question is you've seen, you've seen, you've seen
specifically firsthand how manyleaders wait until they're in
that I'll call it a crisis modeto focus on their talent bank.
(05:01):
Right, I mean not just knowabout a talent bank, but they
wait until they're in crisismode to really focus on their
talent bank.
Right, I mean not just knowabout a talent bank, but they
wait until they're in crisismode to really focus on the
talent bank.
So what does it look like tokeep your talent bank warm?
Like, how do you do that?
Can you give us some like realexamples of simple steps or
simple actions that managers cantake to keep that talent bank?
(05:25):
Always kind of cooking.
Beth Sunshine (05:28):
Yeah, I'd love to , and I'm really glad you asked
this question, because this isone of the places where I see
the largest gap between whatmanagers know they should do and
what they actually make thetime to do.
So it's a great thing to spenda few minutes on.
The best leaders treatrecruitment like a year-round
activity.
(05:48):
So even when they're not hiringI'll even go so far as to say
especially when they're nothiring they're building their
bench, and we would call that atalent bank.
You want to picture an NBA team.
You've got the players on thecourt and then you've got the
others on the bench ready to bepulled into the game when needed
.
In business, a strong talentbank is just like that.
(06:08):
So you've got to have thatready as your security net and
you fill it up by asking forreferrals from trusted contacts
an annual study to search wherehiring companies, hiring
managers, are finding the verymost elite talent, and what
(06:29):
we're finding is they're findingthem through referrals.
Referrals is really powerful.
That's why I listed that first.
And then you want to reach outto promising people that you see
on LinkedIn or that you know inthe market and post on social
media, if your company allows.
Whatever you need to do to getpeople in your talent bank and
(06:51):
the goal is, by the way, ifyou're not hiring, to be really
transparent about that.
Explain that you're not hiring,but rather building a strong
talent bank of people who youbelieve might be a great
addition to the team somedaydown the road.
You want to get to know them.
You want for them to get toknow you so that, when the time
is right, you'll both know it.
(07:12):
Adding a name to a listactually can be the easy part,
although, like I said, there's abig gap between knowing you
need to do this and doing it,but that is the easier part.
You really asked about how tokeep that talent bank warm, and
I think that can be a littlemore challenging.
You've got to nurture thoserelationships.
There are a bunch of ways youcan do that.
(07:34):
I think that the easiest wayswould be maybe share an article
that you find that they mightenjoy.
If they have a hobby or aninterest and you find something
on it, share it with them.
Maybe check in occasionallywith some encouragement.
If you see something onLinkedIn, they're working on a
project or they just receivedsome sort of recognition, check
(07:55):
in, encourage them, praise themand then also ask for their
thoughts, ask for their ideas.
There's no greater complimentyou can pay to someone.
It's a great way to kind ofpull them into the fold a little
bit.
But you want to be the kind ofleader that they hope calls you,
calls them into the game oneday.
That would be the goal.
Matt Sunshine (08:17):
Yeah, I love the way you started.
Your initial response to thisquestion was about making a
commitment, making a priority,and something that we talked
about on another one of theepisodes this season was this
idea that you can tell whatsomeone's priorities are by
looking at their calendar.
It's true.
(08:37):
Right and are they recruitingevery single week?
Are they recruiting everysingle month?
Are they making those depositsinto their talent bank?
The best thing in the world iswhen you're a sales leader or
you're a leader in a business,regardless of your sales or not
sales, but you get the greenlight to be able to hire and
(09:00):
your first instinct is to go oh,I'm so excited.
I have three people in mytalent bank that I've been
nurturing for the last sixmonths.
I can't wait to reach out.
I mean, that's what you want,right, that's what you want.
That's awesome.
I've heard you talk about thisbefore and I know you referenced
it in your article.
You talk about spotting theearly warning signs of
(09:24):
disengagement.
Sometimes you talk aboutengagement, but let's talk about
disengagement.
Sometimes we talk aboutengagement, but let's talk about
disengagement.
What are a few subtle thingsthat sales managers ought to be
paying close attention to topick up on that disengagement?
Beth Sunshine (09:38):
Yeah, you want to watch for quiet signals like
maybe someone contributing lessin meetings than they used to,
or withdrawing socially, showingless enthusiasm for the
coaching that you're giving them.
I think if you see someone withkind of a checklist mentality,
where they're just going throughthe motions but you can tell
(09:59):
their heart isn't really in it,that's obviously a red flag.
When people leave, it oftencomes down to one of just a
handful of things Tends to bethat they lack a sense of
purpose.
Their job just doesn't feelmeaningful.
They feel undervalued,unimportant.
Maybe they don't feel likethey're growing or being
(10:21):
developed, they're not receivingrecognition.
Those things tend to be thetriggers and that's why I
recommend that you regularlytake a pulse of that.
You want to do an annualengagement survey, for example.
Have some meaningfulconversations just so that you
don't miss any signs I meanthose signs I listed of them,
(10:44):
kind of checking out or notparticipating in meetings.
If you keep your eyes open,you'll see those, but you also
don't have to wait for them.
Our clients use a relationshipbuilding tool that I know you're
familiar with, called theGrowth Guide.
It asks great questions, someof my favorites one is what's
the best challenge I could giveyou right now.
(11:05):
One is if I need to give youtough feedback, how do you
prefer that I do that?
How do you prefer to receive it?
Another is when you'resuccessful, how should I
recognize that or who should Itell about that?
I love the concept of askingthose questions because then
you're not just looking forsigns of disengagement, you're
(11:26):
really getting to the heart ofthe employee experience, the
needs of your people, and youjust have a better sense at any
given time for how people aredoing and you can prevent that
disengagement.
Matt Sunshine (11:40):
So important, just so, so, so important.
I think we could have an entirepodcast on that one, on that
one topic.
We could go deep.
I want to go back to somethingyou were talking about before.
When it comes to talent bankand things like that, you
mentioned the top talent report,the study that you look at
every single, not the superstarstudy, the study that you look
(12:03):
at every single year for thelast 10 years.
I know one of the.
The number one thing is alwaysreferrals.
Yeah, so my question is reallyon referrals and the language
leaders need to use when they'reasking for referrals.
Why does specific?
(12:24):
I can't say that word.
Beth Sunshine (12:26):
That's a hard one .
Matt Sunshine (12:27):
Why is it so important that managers are
specific when they're asking forreferrals?
Beth Sunshine (12:34):
Because vague requests get vague results.
That's how I usually think ofit.
So let's say I ask you.
Let's say I'm going to be inyour area and I ask you where
should I eat?
Where would you recommend youmight name a dozen different
places that you like, based onyour preferences.
Going to be in your area, and Iask you, where should I eat?
Where would you recommend youmight name a dozen different
places that you like, based onyour preferences.
Maybe you'll just share yourvery favorite restaurant and say
(12:55):
you should eat here.
But if I were to say I'm goingto be in your area and I'm
looking for a great Indianrestaurant, I want to be near a
shopping area and I'd love it ifthey have table service rather
than counter service, now youmight have a very different
recommendation for me and I feellike that's such a good example
because it shows that theclearer I am in my question, the
(13:19):
better you're going to be ableto make a recommendation and
fill my needs.
And referrals work the exactsame way when a hiring manager
says something like you know, Ihave an open position.
Do you know anyone who I shouldtalk to or who do you know that
I should talk to for this salesrole.
It puts a burden on the otherperson to guess what kind of
(13:41):
candidate you're looking for andthe answers can be all over the
place.
So instead I always recommendtrying something more like my
Indian restaurant example, whereyou get really specific.
So you would ask like who doyou know who loves solving
complex problems, who buildstrust quickly, who thrives in
high energy environments?
(14:02):
That kind of request willtrigger a specific mental image.
It kind of makes the listenergo through the Rolodex in their
brain and land on an actualperson who meets what you need
and then gets you more qualifiedreferrals.
So specificity doesn't justimprove your odds, it
(14:23):
strengthens the connectionbetween you and the person
giving the referral because theyknow you're clear on what you
need.
Matt Sunshine (14:32):
And way to show off by saying that Specificity,
it's a tough word.
That concept reminds me a lotabout the concept of
brainstorming.
Right, and in brainstorming, alot of people believe that in
brainstorming, the problemstatement should be as vague as
(14:52):
possible, like you know.
Let's have a break.
In what ways might we increasesales at our store?
And when you say something likein what ways might we increase
sales at the store, it's too big.
But if you say, in what waysmight we increase our cereal
(15:13):
sales with moms, with first-timemoms between the ages of 25 and
30 years old, on Mondays,tuesdays and Wednesdays before
11 am, all of a sudden you'regoing to come up with these
(15:35):
ideas because I've given yousome triggers.
That's right.
It's the same thing when you'reasking for referrals.
Beth Sunshine (15:43):
That's exactly right.
Matt Sunshine (15:44):
The more specific .
And your Indian food example isamazing because even when you
just said to me what is a placeto eat, and then when you said
Indian and counter serviceversus everything, all of a
sudden you start narrow, narrow,narrow, narrow.
I might not have 20 names togive you, I might only have two,
but they're going to be exactlywhat you're looking for.
Beth Sunshine (16:06):
Best way to say it.
That's exactly right.
It's not really about quantityNow.
It's about really goodreferrals that are high quality
that are worth your time.
Matt Sunshine (16:16):
And I noticed you didn't say who do you know
that's looking for a job.
Beth Sunshine (16:19):
I didn't, because typically really high
performers are employed.
The chance that they'reavailable at the same time
you're hiring is like gettingthe stars to align.
So ideally you want to belooking for people who have jobs
but maybe they don't feelpurposeful, they don't feel like
they're growing, they don'tfeel important to their manager
(16:41):
or to the company, they'relacking those things and they
might be willing to leave.
Matt Sunshine (16:46):
Excellent, All right.
Next question From yourperspective, how closely are
turnover preparedness and strongculture connected?
I mean, does one or can onereally exist without the other?
Beth Sunshine (17:01):
Yeah, they are incredibly intertwined, for sure
.
A strong culture creates a kindof environment where people
don't want to leave, and itgives them purpose, connection,
pride in their work.
But even in the healthiestcultures, turnover happens and
that's where preparedness comesin.
So having a strong talent bankgives you the confidence to
(17:23):
respond quickly andstrategically when someone exits
.
Instead of scrambling, insteadof settling for someone who
maybe isn't the ideal person forthe job, you can make
thoughtful choices and that alsosignals to the entire team that
you value excellence.
So you can see how these go handin hand.
It also helps you just hold ahigher standard in general.
(17:45):
When you know you've got greatpeople waiting in the wings it's
exactly what you said earlierit almost can feel like a good
thing, but you're less likely totolerate poor performance or
poor culture fits.
You create a workplace wheretalent is recognized, where
expectations are clear andpeople know that they're part of
(18:07):
something that matters and itjust it raises the bar because
you've got these greatperformers on the bench if you
need them.
The strong culture keeps peopleengaged.
So turnover preparednessensures you stay strong when
that change inevitably happensand the culture plays a role and
(18:28):
they reinforce the other.
They go hand in hand.
Matt Sunshine (18:32):
So earlier in the conversation, in fact the way
we led off the first question Iasked had to do with a top
performer quits and what advicedo you have for a smart manager?
What should they do in thosefirst few hours and you talked
about?
You gave those four reallysteps, you know.
(18:53):
Make sure they leave on a goodnote and learn why and stabilize
and make yourself visible aswell as look at your talent bank
.
I want to still stay on thattopic of a top performer leaves
suddenly.
When that happens, oftentimesthere is an urge by the manager
(19:17):
to make a fast hire, like not Ineed to fill the seat now, I
want to put somebody in therenow.
That feeling of making a fasthire is real.
What's your advice to thatmanager for slowing it down just
a minute because you want toavoid that panic hire?
Beth Sunshine (19:39):
Yeah, it's a good question, because I think
that's human nature.
It's really tempting to want tofill that role fast.
You might be getting pressurefrom above you certainly have
pressure just in the business tohave a spot filled, but a bad
hire is going to cost you a lotmore than waiting a little bit
longer to find the right one.
Bad hires hurt revenue, theyslow down teams, they frustrate
(20:04):
top performers, they damage yourculture, and managers end up
spending more time fixingproblems than developing talent
like they could, I often say.
The only thing more expensivethan making the wrong hire,
though, is waiting too long tomake the right one.
And that brings us, I think, tothe advice I really wanna share
(20:25):
, which is ideally, you wannahave a very proactive approach
to recruiting.
You wanna start with buildingand nurturing a talent bank, so
you don't have to make thatpanic hire.
You don't have to have thatscramble feeling.
So my advice is know whatexcellence looks like and draw a
line in the sand for yourself.
(20:45):
Don't settle.
Know the behaviors you need andactually hold out for them.
Use a validated assessment sothat you have a clear read on
the strengths and the weaknessesof your job candidates, because
they're going to have both,because we all do.
And in the age of AI, oh mygosh, resumes are so polished,
(21:06):
interviews are so polished.
You have to get past all ofthat and get a real read on the
behaviors you're likely to seefrom people if you were to hire
them.
And then you want to look toyour talent bank for people who
match and, like I said before,don't settle.
And if there isn't a match inyour talent bank, then wait,
because it's better to hold outa few weeks than to hire the
(21:30):
wrong person.
But the cost of a bad hire isalways higher than the cost of
taking a week or two to get itright.
Matt Sunshine (21:38):
Absolutely All right.
Last question for you If amanager listening today,
somebody listening to thispodcast or watching this podcast
today, wants to really getahead of this potential turnover
, that's inevitable, it's goingto happen.
So they want to get ahead ofthis potential turnover, that's
inevitable, it's going to happen.
So they want to get ahead ofwhatever turnover is going to
(22:00):
happen.
What's the one thing they canstart doing this week to be
prepared?
Beth Sunshine (22:08):
Okay, this is an easy one, so I'm going to give
you a three-step, though here'swhat they can do.
So I'm going to give you athree step, though here's what
they can do.
Number one spend three minuteswriting down what excellence
looks like in a role that theymight need to fill in the future
.
So you're just writing downbehaviors like build rapport
really quickly with new peopleor able to multitask lots of
(22:33):
complex things at the same timewithout making mistakes,
whatever.
Three minutes make a list ofjust a few things that you know
excellence requires, and thenmake a second list and in this
case it's a list of five peoplewho you trust maybe friends,
neighbors, co-workers of thepast, anyone in the business
(22:54):
community five people and askthem who do you know who?
And then list those behaviorswho do you know who is able to
build rapport quickly?
Send those today, today, makethis happen today and then, as
you start getting names back,reach out to those people and
start building your telebank,and then you'll be ready.
Matt Sunshine (23:15):
Excellent.
That's such great advice, and Ithink that anybody listening to
this should be in having themindset of I don't know when
turnover is going to happen, butI know eventually it's going to
happen for the right reasons orthe wrong reasons, it doesn't
matter.
Turnover happens.
(23:36):
Getting prepared for that andbeing ready for that is just
incredibly important.
So thank you so much for yourcontribution.
You're a wealth of knowledgewhen it comes to this stuff.
So thank you and thanks againfor the Talent Magazine.
It looks absolutely amazing.
Beth Sunshine (23:54):
I'm so glad.
I'm so glad, and thank you andthanks again for the talent
magazine.
It looks absolutely amazing.
I'm so glad, yeah, and thankyou for having me.
Matt Sunshine (23:58):
Yeah, so if anyone wants to get a hold of
Beth, the best thing to do is toconnect with her on LinkedIn
and then direct message her.
She's highly responsive whenpeople do that.
We'll put Beth's contactinformation in the show notes
and everyone.
Thank you again for for joiningthe podcast and listening in or
watching.
We really do appreciate it.
(24:20):
We love the comments and thefeedback that we get from
everybody.
Thanks again for listening andwe'll see you on the next
episode of Improving SalesPerformance.
This has been Improving SalesPerformance.
Thanks for listening.
If you like what you heard,join us every week by clicking
the subscribe button.
For more on the topics coveredin the show, visit our website,
(24:43):
thecenterforsalesstrategycom.
There you can find helpfulresources and content aimed at
improving your sales performance.
Welcome to Improving Sales Performance, a
podcast highlighting tips andinsights aimed at helping sales
organizations realize, and maybeeven exceed, their goals.
Here we chat with thoughtleaders, experts and gurus who
have years of sales experiencefrom a wide range of industries.
I'm your host, matt Sunshine,ceo at the Center for Sales
Strategy, a sales performanceconsulting company.
(00:27):
In this episode, we'reexploring what smart sales
leaders do before their topperformers resign, and joining
me is Beth Sunshine, senior VicePresident, talent Services at
the Center for Sales Strategy.
Her contribution to the 2025Talent Magazine highlights the
(00:52):
importance of being ready longbefore turnover actually happens
, and here she shares actionableways to build that readiness
into your talent strategy.
Beth brings so much wisdom tothe table, including why it's
essential to protect therelationships with your people
who leave, because boomerangemployees are all too common.
(01:15):
How, when it comes to referrals, vague requests get vague
results and, finally, why theonly thing more expensive than
making the wrong hire is waitingtoo long to make the right one.
All right, beth, let's jumpinto this.
(01:37):
First of all, congratulationson another amazing talent
magazine.
Overall, it just looksincredible.
I know that there are hardcopies as well as digital copies
, so everyone listening orwatching this make sure you do
(01:57):
whatever you can to get a copyof the talent magazine.
It's phenomenal.
I want to talk about yourarticle for a second.
So you open your article withthis scenario that hits home for
a lot of sales leaders or justleaders in general and here's
(02:18):
the scenario your top performerquits.
What should a smart manager doin those first few hours or days
to really respond well to thiscommon situation?
Beth Sunshine (02:34):
Yeah, common's right, and that moment's tough,
especially if it catches you offguard, which it often does.
But there's no need to panic.
A smart manager is going toreally smoothly move into what I
think of as four steps kind ofthe four step process to deal
with that unexpected departure.
(02:54):
First, you have to start byprotecting the relationship you
have with the person who'sleaving.
We're seeing so many boomerangincidents happen where an
employee who left is willing toreturn when that's a high
performer and they're returningafter exploring other
opportunities.
That can be a really good thingfor a company.
(03:15):
And that only happens when theyleave on good terms.
So you do want to allow them toleave on a good note.
And then you want to shift intolearning mode.
So find out what really led totheir decision to leave on a
good note.
And then you want to shift intolearning mode.
So find out what really led totheir decision to leave.
People rarely leave just for abetter paycheck, even though we
hear that a lot.
(03:35):
It's rarely the better paycheckthat does it.
If they find meaning, if theyfind growth and recognition
where they are, they're reallylikely to stay.
So you want to dig a little bitdeeper.
And then, third, you've got tostabilize your team.
You've got to be visible, checkin, have real conversations to
(03:55):
smooth any ripples that may havehappened.
And then finally and I thinkthis is something we're going to
probably dig into today youwant to turn to your talent bank
.
If it's well-maintained, if youhave strong candidates in there
waiting in the wings, it's timefor you to start making moves.
Matt Sunshine (04:12):
All right.
So let me just recap that Firstthing is make sure they leave
on a good note, because theboomerang does happen.
Beth Sunshine (04:19):
The boomerang is real.
Matt Sunshine (04:21):
It's real.
Take the time to learn why ithappened, stabilize and be
visible with your current teamand then, hopefully, you have a
strong talent bank and go toyour talent bank.
Beth Sunshine (04:35):
I think that's one great advice.
Matt Sunshine (04:37):
Yeah, Great, great solid action steps that
someone can take because peopledo leave.
Action steps that someone cantake because people do leave, it
does happen, yeah, All right.
My next question is you've seen, you've seen, you've seen
specifically firsthand how manyleaders wait until they're in
that I'll call it a crisis modeto focus on their talent bank.
(05:01):
Right, I mean not just knowabout a talent bank, but they
wait until they're in crisismode to really focus on their
talent bank.
Right, I mean not just knowabout a talent bank, but they
wait until they're in crisismode to really focus on the
talent bank.
So what does it look like tokeep your talent bank warm?
Like, how do you do that?
Can you give us some like realexamples of simple steps or
simple actions that managers cantake to keep that talent bank?
(05:25):
Always kind of cooking.
Beth Sunshine (05:28):
Yeah, I'd love to , and I'm really glad you asked
this question, because this isone of the places where I see
the largest gap between whatmanagers know they should do and
what they actually make thetime to do.
So it's a great thing to spenda few minutes on.
The best leaders treatrecruitment like a year-round
activity.
(05:48):
So even when they're not hiringI'll even go so far as to say
especially when they're nothiring they're building their
bench, and we would call that atalent bank.
You want to picture an NBA team.
You've got the players on thecourt and then you've got the
others on the bench ready to bepulled into the game when needed
.
In business, a strong talentbank is just like that.
(06:08):
So you've got to have thatready as your security net and
you fill it up by asking forreferrals from trusted contacts
an annual study to search wherehiring companies, hiring
managers, are finding the verymost elite talent, and what
(06:29):
we're finding is they're findingthem through referrals.
Referrals is really powerful.
That's why I listed that first.
And then you want to reach outto promising people that you see
on LinkedIn or that you know inthe market and post on social
media, if your company allows.
Whatever you need to do to getpeople in your talent bank and
(06:51):
the goal is, by the way, ifyou're not hiring, to be really
transparent about that.
Explain that you're not hiring,but rather building a strong
talent bank of people who youbelieve might be a great
addition to the team somedaydown the road.
You want to get to know them.
You want for them to get toknow you so that, when the time
is right, you'll both know it.
(07:12):
Adding a name to a listactually can be the easy part,
although, like I said, there's abig gap between knowing you
need to do this and doing it,but that is the easier part.
You really asked about how tokeep that talent bank warm, and
I think that can be a littlemore challenging.
You've got to nurture thoserelationships.
There are a bunch of ways youcan do that.
(07:34):
I think that the easiest wayswould be maybe share an article
that you find that they mightenjoy.
If they have a hobby or aninterest and you find something
on it, share it with them.
Maybe check in occasionallywith some encouragement.
If you see something onLinkedIn, they're working on a
project or they just receivedsome sort of recognition, check
(07:55):
in, encourage them, praise themand then also ask for their
thoughts, ask for their ideas.
There's no greater complimentyou can pay to someone.
It's a great way to kind ofpull them into the fold a little
bit.
But you want to be the kind ofleader that they hope calls you,
calls them into the game oneday.
That would be the goal.
Matt Sunshine (08:17):
Yeah, I love the way you started.
Your initial response to thisquestion was about making a
commitment, making a priority,and something that we talked
about on another one of theepisodes this season was this
idea that you can tell whatsomeone's priorities are by
looking at their calendar.
It's true.
(08:37):
Right and are they recruitingevery single week?
Are they recruiting everysingle month?
Are they making those depositsinto their talent bank?
The best thing in the world iswhen you're a sales leader or
you're a leader in a business,regardless of your sales or not
sales, but you get the greenlight to be able to hire and
(09:00):
your first instinct is to go oh,I'm so excited.
I have three people in mytalent bank that I've been
nurturing for the last sixmonths.
I can't wait to reach out.
I mean, that's what you want,right, that's what you want.
That's awesome.
I've heard you talk about thisbefore and I know you referenced
it in your article.
You talk about spotting theearly warning signs of
(09:24):
disengagement.
Sometimes you talk aboutengagement, but let's talk about
disengagement.
Sometimes we talk aboutengagement, but let's talk about
disengagement.
What are a few subtle thingsthat sales managers ought to be
paying close attention to topick up on that disengagement?
Beth Sunshine (09:38):
Yeah, you want to watch for quiet signals like
maybe someone contributing lessin meetings than they used to,
or withdrawing socially, showingless enthusiasm for the
coaching that you're giving them.
I think if you see someone withkind of a checklist mentality,
where they're just going throughthe motions but you can tell
(09:59):
their heart isn't really in it,that's obviously a red flag.
When people leave, it oftencomes down to one of just a
handful of things Tends to bethat they lack a sense of
purpose.
Their job just doesn't feelmeaningful.
They feel undervalued,unimportant.
Maybe they don't feel likethey're growing or being
(10:21):
developed, they're not receivingrecognition.
Those things tend to be thetriggers and that's why I
recommend that you regularlytake a pulse of that.
You want to do an annualengagement survey, for example.
Have some meaningfulconversations just so that you
don't miss any signs I meanthose signs I listed of them,
(10:44):
kind of checking out or notparticipating in meetings.
If you keep your eyes open,you'll see those, but you also
don't have to wait for them.
Our clients use a relationshipbuilding tool that I know you're
familiar with, called theGrowth Guide.
It asks great questions, someof my favorites one is what's
the best challenge I could giveyou right now.
(11:05):
One is if I need to give youtough feedback, how do you
prefer that I do that?
How do you prefer to receive it?
Another is when you'resuccessful, how should I
recognize that or who should Itell about that?
I love the concept of askingthose questions because then
you're not just looking forsigns of disengagement, you're
(11:26):
really getting to the heart ofthe employee experience, the
needs of your people, and youjust have a better sense at any
given time for how people aredoing and you can prevent that
disengagement.
Matt Sunshine (11:40):
So important, just so, so, so important.
I think we could have an entirepodcast on that one, on that
one topic.
We could go deep.
I want to go back to somethingyou were talking about before.
When it comes to talent bankand things like that, you
mentioned the top talent report,the study that you look at
every single, not the superstarstudy, the study that you look
(12:03):
at every single year for thelast 10 years.
I know one of the.
The number one thing is alwaysreferrals.
Yeah, so my question is reallyon referrals and the language
leaders need to use when they'reasking for referrals.
Why does specific?
(12:24):
I can't say that word.
Beth Sunshine (12:26):
That's a hard one .
Matt Sunshine (12:27):
Why is it so important that managers are
specific when they're asking forreferrals?
Beth Sunshine (12:34):
Because vague requests get vague results.
That's how I usually think ofit.
So let's say I ask you.
Let's say I'm going to be inyour area and I ask you where
should I eat?
Where would you recommend youmight name a dozen different
places that you like, based onyour preferences.
Going to be in your area, and Iask you, where should I eat?
Where would you recommend youmight name a dozen different
places that you like, based onyour preferences.
Maybe you'll just share yourvery favorite restaurant and say
(12:55):
you should eat here.
But if I were to say I'm goingto be in your area and I'm
looking for a great Indianrestaurant, I want to be near a
shopping area and I'd love it ifthey have table service rather
than counter service, now youmight have a very different
recommendation for me and I feellike that's such a good example
because it shows that theclearer I am in my question, the
(13:19):
better you're going to be ableto make a recommendation and
fill my needs.
And referrals work the exactsame way when a hiring manager
says something like you know, Ihave an open position.
Do you know anyone who I shouldtalk to or who do you know that
I should talk to for this salesrole.
It puts a burden on the otherperson to guess what kind of
(13:41):
candidate you're looking for andthe answers can be all over the
place.
So instead I always recommendtrying something more like my
Indian restaurant example, whereyou get really specific.
So you would ask like who doyou know who loves solving
complex problems, who buildstrust quickly, who thrives in
high energy environments?
(14:02):
That kind of request willtrigger a specific mental image.
It kind of makes the listenergo through the Rolodex in their
brain and land on an actualperson who meets what you need
and then gets you more qualifiedreferrals.
So specificity doesn't justimprove your odds, it
(14:23):
strengthens the connectionbetween you and the person
giving the referral because theyknow you're clear on what you
need.
Matt Sunshine (14:32):
And way to show off by saying that Specificity,
it's a tough word.
That concept reminds me a lotabout the concept of
brainstorming.
Right, and in brainstorming, alot of people believe that in
brainstorming, the problemstatement should be as vague as
(14:52):
possible, like you know.
Let's have a break.
In what ways might we increasesales at our store?
And when you say something likein what ways might we increase
sales at the store, it's too big.
But if you say, in what waysmight we increase our cereal
(15:13):
sales with moms, with first-timemoms between the ages of 25 and
30 years old, on Mondays,tuesdays and Wednesdays before
11 am, all of a sudden you'regoing to come up with these
(15:35):
ideas because I've given yousome triggers.
That's right.
It's the same thing when you'reasking for referrals.
Beth Sunshine (15:43):
That's exactly right.
Matt Sunshine (15:44):
The more specific .
And your Indian food example isamazing because even when you
just said to me what is a placeto eat, and then when you said
Indian and counter serviceversus everything, all of a
sudden you start narrow, narrow,narrow, narrow.
I might not have 20 names togive you, I might only have two,
but they're going to be exactlywhat you're looking for.
Beth Sunshine (16:06):
Best way to say it.
That's exactly right.
It's not really about quantityNow.
It's about really goodreferrals that are high quality
that are worth your time.
Matt Sunshine (16:16):
And I noticed you didn't say who do you know
that's looking for a job.
Beth Sunshine (16:19):
I didn't, because typically really high
performers are employed.
The chance that they'reavailable at the same time
you're hiring is like gettingthe stars to align.
So ideally you want to belooking for people who have jobs
but maybe they don't feelpurposeful, they don't feel like
they're growing, they don'tfeel important to their manager
(16:41):
or to the company, they'relacking those things and they
might be willing to leave.
Matt Sunshine (16:46):
Excellent, All right.
Next question From yourperspective, how closely are
turnover preparedness and strongculture connected?
I mean, does one or can onereally exist without the other?
Beth Sunshine (17:01):
Yeah, they are incredibly intertwined, for sure
.
A strong culture creates a kindof environment where people
don't want to leave, and itgives them purpose, connection,
pride in their work.
But even in the healthiestcultures, turnover happens and
that's where preparedness comesin.
So having a strong talent bankgives you the confidence to
(17:23):
respond quickly andstrategically when someone exits
.
Instead of scrambling, insteadof settling for someone who
maybe isn't the ideal person forthe job, you can make
thoughtful choices and that alsosignals to the entire team that
you value excellence.
So you can see how these go handin hand.
It also helps you just hold ahigher standard in general.
(17:45):
When you know you've got greatpeople waiting in the wings it's
exactly what you said earlierit almost can feel like a good
thing, but you're less likely totolerate poor performance or
poor culture fits.
You create a workplace wheretalent is recognized, where
expectations are clear andpeople know that they're part of
(18:07):
something that matters and itjust it raises the bar because
you've got these greatperformers on the bench if you
need them.
The strong culture keeps peopleengaged.
So turnover preparednessensures you stay strong when
that change inevitably happensand the culture plays a role and
(18:28):
they reinforce the other.
They go hand in hand.
Matt Sunshine (18:32):
So earlier in the conversation, in fact the way
we led off the first question Iasked had to do with a top
performer quits and what advicedo you have for a smart manager?
What should they do in thosefirst few hours and you talked
about?
You gave those four reallysteps, you know.
(18:53):
Make sure they leave on a goodnote and learn why and stabilize
and make yourself visible aswell as look at your talent bank
.
I want to still stay on thattopic of a top performer leaves
suddenly.
When that happens, oftentimesthere is an urge by the manager
(19:17):
to make a fast hire, like not Ineed to fill the seat now, I
want to put somebody in therenow.
That feeling of making a fasthire is real.
What's your advice to thatmanager for slowing it down just
a minute because you want toavoid that panic hire?
Beth Sunshine (19:39):
Yeah, it's a good question, because I think
that's human nature.
It's really tempting to want tofill that role fast.
You might be getting pressurefrom above you certainly have
pressure just in the business tohave a spot filled, but a bad
hire is going to cost you a lotmore than waiting a little bit
longer to find the right one.
Bad hires hurt revenue, theyslow down teams, they frustrate
(20:04):
top performers, they damage yourculture, and managers end up
spending more time fixingproblems than developing talent
like they could, I often say.
The only thing more expensivethan making the wrong hire,
though, is waiting too long tomake the right one.
And that brings us, I think, tothe advice I really wanna share
(20:25):
, which is ideally, you wannahave a very proactive approach
to recruiting.
You wanna start with buildingand nurturing a talent bank, so
you don't have to make thatpanic hire.
You don't have to have thatscramble feeling.
So my advice is know whatexcellence looks like and draw a
line in the sand for yourself.
(20:45):
Don't settle.
Know the behaviors you need andactually hold out for them.
Use a validated assessment sothat you have a clear read on
the strengths and the weaknessesof your job candidates, because
they're going to have both,because we all do.
And in the age of AI, oh mygosh, resumes are so polished,
(21:06):
interviews are so polished.
You have to get past all ofthat and get a real read on the
behaviors you're likely to seefrom people if you were to hire
them.
And then you want to look toyour talent bank for people who
match and, like I said before,don't settle.
And if there isn't a match inyour talent bank, then wait,
because it's better to hold outa few weeks than to hire the
(21:30):
wrong person.
But the cost of a bad hire isalways higher than the cost of
taking a week or two to get itright.
Matt Sunshine (21:38):
Absolutely All right.
Last question for you If amanager listening today,
somebody listening to thispodcast or watching this podcast
today, wants to really getahead of this potential turnover
, that's inevitable, it's goingto happen.
So they want to get ahead ofthis potential turnover, that's
inevitable, it's going to happen.
So they want to get ahead ofwhatever turnover is going to
(22:00):
happen.
What's the one thing they canstart doing this week to be
prepared?
Beth Sunshine (22:08):
Okay, this is an easy one, so I'm going to give
you a three-step, though here'swhat they can do.
So I'm going to give you athree step, though here's what
they can do.
Number one spend three minuteswriting down what excellence
looks like in a role that theymight need to fill in the future
.
So you're just writing downbehaviors like build rapport
really quickly with new peopleor able to multitask lots of
(22:33):
complex things at the same timewithout making mistakes,
whatever.
Three minutes make a list ofjust a few things that you know
excellence requires, and thenmake a second list and in this
case it's a list of five peoplewho you trust maybe friends,
neighbors, co-workers of thepast, anyone in the business
(22:54):
community five people and askthem who do you know who?
And then list those behaviorswho do you know who is able to
build rapport quickly?
Send those today, today, makethis happen today and then, as
you start getting names back,reach out to those people and
start building your telebank,and then you'll be ready.
Matt Sunshine (23:15):
Excellent.
That's such great advice, and Ithink that anybody listening to
this should be in having themindset of I don't know when
turnover is going to happen, butI know eventually it's going to
happen for the right reasons orthe wrong reasons, it doesn't
matter.
Turnover happens.
(23:36):
Getting prepared for that andbeing ready for that is just
incredibly important.
So thank you so much for yourcontribution.
You're a wealth of knowledgewhen it comes to this stuff.
So thank you and thanks againfor the Talent Magazine.
It looks absolutely amazing.
Beth Sunshine (23:54):
I'm so glad.
I'm so glad, and thank you andthanks again for the talent
magazine.
It looks absolutely amazing.
I'm so glad, yeah, and thankyou for having me.
Matt Sunshine (23:58):
Yeah, so if anyone wants to get a hold of
Beth, the best thing to do is toconnect with her on LinkedIn
and then direct message her.
She's highly responsive whenpeople do that.
We'll put Beth's contactinformation in the show notes
and everyone.
Thank you again for for joiningthe podcast and listening in or
watching.
We really do appreciate it.
(24:20):
We love the comments and thefeedback that we get from
everybody.
Thanks again for listening andwe'll see you on the next
episode of Improving SalesPerformance.
This has been Improving SalesPerformance.
Thanks for listening.
If you like what you heard,join us every week by clicking
the subscribe button.
For more on the topics coveredin the show, visit our website,
(24:43):
thecenterforsalesstrategycom.
There you can find helpfulresources and content aimed at
improving your sales performance.
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