Swimming Against the Current (w/ Riley Gaines)

When Riley Gaines—a name synonymous with dedication and a powerful voice in women's athletics—stepped into our studio, we knew we were about to uncover layers of her story that resonate beyond the pool's edge. As a former elite swimmer for the University of Kentucky (12x All American), Riley has navigated the turbulent waters of competitive sports and emerged as a champion for equality, diving headfirst into the complex debate over transgender athletes in women's events. Our conversation takes you through her exceptional journey, where personal achievements and hard-fought battles intertwine with the broader struggle for fairness in sports.

Riley has made waves for speaking out after tying UPenn’s Lia Thomas, a biological male swimmer on the women’s team, at the 2022 NCAA Division 1 Women’s Swimming & Diving Championships. After Riley directly experienced competing against a man in women’s sports, being forced without warning or consent to undress before the fully intact male, and subjected to discrimination by the NCAA, she became one of the most powerful voices to speak out against the injustice, challenging the rules of the NCAA, USA Swimming, International Olympic Committee (IOC), and other governing bodies.

Riley now works for the leading women’s organization making real and lasting change, legally defining ‘woman,’ protecting Title IX, and defending women’s rights to single-sex spaces and equal opportunities. She has traveled the country speaking and has testified before the U.S. Senate, U.S. House, and countless state legislatures. 

Join us for a powerful narrative that illustrates the relentless pursuit of equality, the resilience of the human spirit, and Riley Gaines's unwavering commitment to 'Swimming Against the Current.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:10):
welcome back to in the booth.
I'm sean booth and thank youguys for tuning in.
Wherever you're listening from,we appreciate the support.
Whether you're listening fromflorida tallahassee, maybe you
are out in Sam Cat, nebraska.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
Sure, I was going to say Peoria, illinois, that's
where I just was, or that.

Speaker 1 (00:29):
Peoria, illinois.
We appreciate it.
If you guys aren't watching uson YouTube, head over to that
channel now to see the fullepisode.
And we are super, super excitedfor today's episode.
Sam Cat we've been working ongetting this guest here for over
a year now.
That is correct.

Speaker 2 (00:45):
Quite, literally one year, almost like to the date.

Speaker 1 (00:47):
Yeah, and it's been a wild year for her.
We're excited for you guys tolisten to the story, but first
let me set up the scene for you.
Here, sitting across from me ismy son, lox, right now, and
he's staring at me.
He's wearing some blue overallswith a white tank top and he's
barefoot today and sitting onthe lap of Auntie Cat.

(01:08):
She's got on cowboy stilettos.
Is that a thing?

Speaker 2 (01:13):
That is not and these are just called booties.
But we can go with cowboystilettos.

Speaker 1 (01:18):
All right, we got booties, we got jeans and a
cowboy T-shirt.
What does it say?

Speaker 2 (01:22):
It says Make America Cowboy Again.

Speaker 1 (01:24):
Okay, Make America Cowboy Again.
We got Cowboy Cat in thebuilding Sums out.

Speaker 2 (01:29):
guns out with Loxie B over here.

Speaker 1 (01:32):
And to my left.
She's a former competitiveswimmer at the University of
Kentucky.
Go Wildcats.

Speaker 3 (01:39):
Go Wildcats.

Speaker 1 (01:40):
I'm just going to read one of her recent tweets
that I think kind of sums up andexplains her life right now.
Quote, unquote.
I can't believe I reached onemillion followers on X for
simply saying men and women aredifferent, lol.
Ladies and gentlemen, pleasewelcome the voice of women's
rights and athletics and, Ibelieve, the voice of common
sense and reason.

(02:00):
We got Riley Gaines.

Speaker 3 (02:02):
Hey, oh my gosh, thank you, thank you.
It's great to be on.
I can't believe, being aNashville native, we didn't make
this happen sooner, but that isentirely on my end.
So I could not be more excitedto be in this chair with you
guys and, most importantly, lox.

Speaker 1 (02:17):
Yes, so it's been a wild ride for you the past year.

Speaker 3 (02:30):
I'm sure you didn't have this year on your bingo
card.
No, how could you Certainlyhave done some things, been some
places, met some people that Inever in my wildest dreams would
have imagined, for the sheerfact of I never would have
imagined.
The conversation that we'rehaving is one that is necessary
to be had, certainly not by me,but really by anyone.
But here we are so, day by day,learning, adapting, rolling
with the punches, sometimes evenquite literally.

(02:52):
So yeah, it's been a whirlwind.

Speaker 1 (02:55):
Well, let's take it back to the beginning.
Swimming Division I eliteswimmer top in the country.
How did you get into that sport?

Speaker 3 (03:03):
So I come from a family of athletes.
My dad, he was a footballplayer.
He played right here atVanderbilt.
He went on to playprofessionally in the NFL for
many years.
My mom, she was a division onesoftball player.
All my uncles playedprofessionally, won Super Bowls,
all the things.
So playing sports was never orI guess, not playing sports.

Speaker 1 (03:27):
That was never an option for me.

Speaker 3 (03:28):
No way, um, but I'll tell you.
When I did the thing that a lotof kids do, you know, you play
softball, you do soccer orbasketball.
I started swimming and my dadtold me Riley, that's not a
sport Like, you need to pick anactual sport.
Uh, that's not one.
And his justification was anysport where or any activity
where a guy is wearing what isequivalent to what he called

(03:50):
panties, that's not a sport.
So I started doing other things.
High school rolls around.
I'm still.
Swimming and softball.
Those are my two sports at thetime, and so I started getting
recruited for both, and so I hadto make a choice and ultimately
I chose swimming, which did notenthrall my dad at first, but
I'll say, he's come around Nowhe knows that swimming is a

(04:11):
sport.
So, man, I started swimmingwhen I was four, graduated when
I was 22.
So really dedicated 18 years ofmy life to my sport.

Speaker 1 (04:21):
So does your dad think wrestling is a sport?
How does he feel about theleotards that they wear?

Speaker 3 (04:26):
He'd probably call that gay too.
To be honest with you, If it'snot football, it's not a sport.

Speaker 1 (04:30):
Yeah, and swimming is very difficult to do and I
think a lot of people don'trealize how difficult it is.
I did a triathlon, I did anIronman a few years back and I
was like, oh, I could swim.
Because I always thought aboutwhen I was a younger kid I could
beat my friends down to the endof the pool and back.
But swimming more than a lap isa whole different ballgame.

Speaker 3 (04:52):
Oh, totally yeah, and in college we swam 15,000 yards
every single day, which isequivalent to about 10 miles.
We did that daily.
So it's definitely a lot moretaxing than I think people
realize.
So, swimming six hours three ofthose hours are before 8am it's
a huge time commitment.

(05:13):
It's pretty grueling the hours,the practices, the sacrifices
that you have to make.
So, yeah, I don't think peoplerealize it either.

Speaker 1 (05:20):
Yeah, and it's a lot of alone time with just your
mind, because it's not likeyou're wearing headphones Like
you would in another workout.
But I remember just going tothe YMCA and just going back and
forth and I would just swim foran hour and I'd have to really
pump myself up to get into dothat workout.

Speaker 3 (05:34):
Yeah, you don't get to talk to people.
You don't get to breathe.
That's not very fun.
You stare at the same blackline at the bottom of the pool.
Hours and hours every singleday for years.

Speaker 1 (05:44):
So so when did you know that you were kind of a
really good swimmer and that youwanted to do that in college?

Speaker 3 (05:50):
Gosh, I think I started to excel when I was
maybe 12 or so years old.
When I was 12, I was thefastest 12 year old in the
nation, which I was so obliviousto this.
I didn't really know what thismeant, I just got out there and
did as best as I could do.
I would have parents coming upto my parents at these swim
meets and they would say, hey,like do you know that time your

(06:11):
daughter just went is such andsuch, it's a quadruple, a
standard.
I still don't even really knowwhat half this stuff means and
my parents were just kind oflike, okay, cool, uh, they
didn't put a lot of emphasis onit.
Neither did I, to be honest.
I got older, you know, 15 ishyears old, and that's when I
qualified for, uh, olympictrials to, you know the, the

(06:33):
meat to eventually then make itto the Olympics.
But I mean, it's the highestcaliber meat.
Um, really it's.
It's even more competitive thanthe Olympics because of the
depth that the United States has, and so qualified for this meet
at 15 years old I was one ofthe youngest ones there Um, I
distinctly remember again, I wasstill so, just like, didn't

(06:54):
really know what this entailed.
I was kind of just going forthe experience.
And so I go to the the center,the aquatic center, where this
meet was.
I get on the elevator, I pressthe button and the elevator
doors open and there's MichaelPhelps and I'm like, oh my gosh,
like this is actually a prettybig deal that I'm here.
So that's kind of when it setin, to be honest with you that

(07:15):
this was something that if Ireally dedicated myself to it
again, my time, my effort, thisis something that I could see
myself pursuing in college.
So you know 15, 16, of course,ups and downs, there's no doubt
about that.
You go through periods whereyou plateau.
It feels as if there's nothingyou can do that will allow you

(07:39):
to drop time, to better yourtimes, to go PRs or things like
that.
But I was very happy with mycareer.
I ended on a very.
A lot of people end very bitterwith their sport because it's
hard to continue improving for,like I said, 18 years of your
life.
But I was very happy with mycareer.

Speaker 1 (07:57):
Yeah, and especially improving in a sport like that.
I mean, you're talking about ahalf a second, a hundredth of a
second.

Speaker 3 (08:04):
Hundreds of a second.
Yeah, which is wild.
Yeah, minimal.

Speaker 1 (08:08):
That's insane.
And so Kentucky, how'd you endup there?
And I'll preface this by sayingI'm from Connecticut, I'm a
UConn fan, uconn basketball, soI apologize, uconn has a team.

Speaker 3 (08:19):
No, no, no.
Long as we're not singing rockytop, then I'm good.

Speaker 1 (08:28):
Um, I knew I wanted to say in the sec uh, by far the
best conference sorry to bigeast.

Speaker 3 (08:30):
Yeah, sorry guys, you can just join though that's
what texas is doing and oklahomais doing, everyone's doing it
just join the sec, um.
But I knew that's where Iwanted to be, and so, um, really
, I thought I was going to be aFlorida Gator, though, and so I
took my trip to Florida, had acouple trips planned, took my

(08:52):
trip to Florida.
I remember talking with someoneclose to me before this, asking
you know, how do you know ifit's the right place for you?
And they told me okay, well,they'll take you to a football
game or a basketball game orwhat have you, and they'll play
the fight song.
And if you get chills when youhear the fight song, that's how
you know you're at the rightplace.
And so we got to go to afootball game, and the fight
song starts playing, and I justcouldn't help but think why are

(09:13):
people doing this?
And again, I, don't look thatgood in orange.
I don't want to go here, butthis was like a total shock to
me.
It was like someone had justthrown a wrench at my plans.

Speaker 1 (09:22):
Um, I didn't really fight song all because the fight
song.

Speaker 3 (09:25):
I really let that weigh on me and again the color
orange, ew.
And so I kept taking my trips.
Never once did I think I wasgoing to go to university of
Kentucky.
Um, admittedly, I thought theonly things that came from
Kentucky were like meth andMountain Dew, uh, which I was
interested in.
Neither of those things.
But, funny story, my boyfriendat the time who is not my

(09:47):
wonderful husband now he was abig Kentucky fan, and so this
coach constantly was emailing me, reaching out to me, calling me
, texting me, asking if I wouldcome on a trip there, which,
again, I totally just ignoredhim.
To be honest with you, I wasn'tinterested.
But he told me, hey, we'llbring you to a basketball game,
and totally just ignored him.
To be honest with you, I wasn'tinterested, but he told me, uh,
hey, we'll bring you to abasketball game.
And this was before Kentucky waslosing to, like the St

(10:11):
Norseburg Peacocks or whoever welost to a few years ago in the
tournament.
So I thought, okay, this willbe like a cool Christmas gift
for my boyfriend, I'll be ableto bring him, we can leave.
I'll honestly just takeadvantage of this coach in this
university.
But I went there and I'll tellyou I fell in love.
I fell in love with the team,the coaches, the campus, the

(10:31):
resources that they poured intous outside of even just
athletics, and to our academicsand our service, both things
that really mattered to me.
And so, on a whim, I committedthere and there could not have
been a better place for me.

Speaker 1 (10:44):
On a whim.
I committed there and therecould not have been a better
place for me, right, all right.
So University of Kentucky andthe life of a D1 athlete is very
challenging.
We're all athletes here.
Sam Kat was a gymnast and Iplayed soccer not the D1 level.
Speak for yourself Booth.
I know I feel very unathleticsitting in this room.

Speaker 2 (11:03):
Sorry about that yeah .

Speaker 1 (11:05):
But explain the day-to-day life of a college
athlete at the D1 level.

Speaker 3 (11:09):
Gosh, I thought I worked hard before college.
Wrong, this was a differentkind of working hard.
As I said, we practiced sixhours that's just the time in
the water every day.
Again.
Three of those hours are before8 am.
So you get to the pool at 5am,practice till 8am, you go to
class, you come back, youpractice again from 1.30 to 4.30

(11:29):
, ate our dinner at old peopletime of 4.45 because we were
starving, did your homework,iced your shoulders, went to bed
, woke up.
You did it all again the nextday.
Again, that's not including anyof the weight sessions, the
lifting sessions we had.
That's not including what wecall dry land or extra ab

(11:50):
workouts that were mandatory wehad to do.
It's hard to balance, honestly,your athletic side of things but
also the academia side ofthings.
You're missing weeks at a timefor meets, during finals, of
course, always, so constantlytrying to catch up with school.
Um, forget your social life.

(12:11):
You just don't really have one.
Uh, all of your friends arepeople who are on your team,
which I'm so fortunate.
Uh, for my teammates and for myfriends.
I met my husband at universityof Kentucky.
He was a swimmer.
Of course he was a swimmer and,as you can imagine, my dad was
not happy when I started datingone of these boys who wears the
panties.
Um he, he said Riley, he's gay.

(12:33):
I'm like dad?
No, he's not.

Speaker 1 (12:36):
Riley, what about, like one of the football players
?

Speaker 3 (12:38):
No, totally, but he loves him now, of course.
So it's um.
It just taught me so much,honestly playing sports,
balancing all these things.
It taught me how to be a leader.
It taught me how to set goalsand work to achieve those goals,
of course.
Perseverance, resiliency, allthings that I find myself using

(12:59):
in my day-to-day life.
Now, I wouldn't have theseattributes or characteristics
had I not been fortunate enoughto play at the collegiate level.

Speaker 1 (13:07):
Yeah, I think athletics shapes somebody, more
so than academics.

Speaker 3 (13:11):
For sure.

Speaker 1 (13:12):
And you know I always say I'm going to let Lox choose
what he wants to do.
Obviously I'm not going to peerpressure him, but I really hope
that he does want to play sometype of sport, just to get that
team work and the chemistry,like you said, dedication,
everything so he looks like he'sgonna play sports yeah, what do
you think?

Speaker 3 (13:29):
oh, I don't know, he's pretty beefy yeah, yeah,
we're beefing him up.

Speaker 1 (13:32):
Yeah, he's pretty beefy huh, buddy yeah we're
talking about you so then, howmany people are on the swim team
at kentucky?

Speaker 3 (13:39):
gosh, we had.
Uh, just on the girls team,which I was captain of, we had
40 girls, which is that's insane.
Oh, totally, it's like our ownlittle sorority.
We didn't have time, or weweren't really allowed, to join
a sorority, and so we calledourselves Kappa, kappa, goggles.
It was like a sorority andagain, being captain of this,

(14:00):
the drama that ensued.
It's inevitable, right, youcan't be best friends with
everyone, but, again, anotheradded stress and pressure to my
day-to-day life being thisliaison between the team and the
coaches, having to, um, punishcertain teammates if they were
acting out of of our policiesand things that we had in place.

(14:21):
Holding everyone accountable,knowing everyone's goals, um,
again to for the purpose of ofholding them accountable to
those goals, to our goals as ateam.
Uh, so it was, uh, it was a lot.

Speaker 1 (14:33):
It's a lot 40 girls.
I was way off then, cause Ithought you might've had five or
10 swimmers on a team incollege.

Speaker 3 (14:40):
No way.
Um, some of those were divers.
We had about four or fivedivers, not too many so,
majority of those being swimmersA lot to deal with.

Speaker 1 (14:51):
All right, so then your career at Kentucky.

Speaker 3 (15:05):
Getting used to that much volume in the pool lifting.
That was new to me.
I had never lifted beforecollege.
So improving steadily, butagain certainly adjusting.
Sophomore year, this is when Ifelt like the adjustment had.
Finally, I was settled in.
I had really started to developthis sense of consistency.
I was consistent in my workouts, consistent with my attitude

(15:28):
and my work ethic, consistent inmy diet, my sleep schedule, my
study habits.
Which I look back now and Ithink that's the most admirable
trait, or I guess, really themost useful trait someone can
develop, is being consistent.
I certainly saw it and felt itin my life um athletically, but
again transcending beyond that.
And so this is when I startedto have this breakout season, uh

(15:52):
started doing some some prettyincredible things.
Um March of 2020, about threedays before we were supposed to
leave for our nationalchampionships, which is the meat
you work all year for um yourlife, for the pinnacle of
collegiate sports.
Three days before we weresupposed to leave, we're in the

(16:13):
water, we're practicing, gearingup, ready to go.
Our coaches come over, theypull us out of the water, take
us back to the team room, theysit us down and they say NCAAs
has been canceled.
Pack your stuff up.
If you live in the dorm rooms,you have to leave campus.
Tonight, of course, covid hadhit, which there was a lot of

(16:34):
uncertainty around this.
We didn't know what this meant.
No one did.
I thought we would go home forthe weekend, maybe the week, the
next week, and very swiftlyreturn back to campus, which was
of course not what happened.
We, upon going from Kentuckyback home to Tennessee, it was

(16:54):
kind of like this abruptrealization that there were no
gyms open or nothing, no settingwhere I could continue
improving, dedicating myself tomy sport, which, in the sport of
swimming, it's detrimental.
To take time out of the water.
You're very quick to lose yourskillset, your technique, of

(17:18):
course, your speed, all thosethings.
And so I knew what two, three,four months out of the water
meant.
It would have been the end ofmy career.
Honestly, it would have takenme more than a year and a half
or so to get back to the levelthat I was.
So I knew I had to do something.
So very fortunate here to haveOld Hickory Lake, which I put on

(17:40):
a wetsuit every single day.
I jumped in the boat dock downat Saundersville boat ramp,
jumped in, swam miles aimlessly.
I'd swim down by Johnny Cash'shouse, come back.
I did it every single day.

Speaker 1 (17:57):
That's not the cleanest water.

Speaker 3 (17:59):
Not the cleanest water, the amount of dead
catfish that are like floatingon top that hits you as you're?
Yeah, no, not pleasant.
Snakes that swim by, yeah,things that touch your feet, no,
no, thank you.
But I knew I had to do this IfI wanted to continue this
breakout season.
I was having my sophomore yearinto my junior year and

(18:22):
understand, I don't think I wasoverly unique in that sense A
lot of us were willing to dowhatever it took and I think it
just shows the mindset of anathlete who wants to compete and
again succeed.
And so we're finally able tocome back junior year and I did
continue this breakout season.

(18:43):
This is the year that I won myfirst individual SEC title.
This is when University ofKentucky won its first ever SEC
title in program history andultimately, this year I ended up
placing seventh in the country,which Not bad.
I was proud of it.
You're top eight, you're anAll-American it's a pretty high

(19:04):
honor.
But I didn't swim my best time.
I felt unsatisfied to a degreewith this.
I knew I was capable of more,and so it was right, then and
there, that I placed seventh inthe nation my junior year, that
I set a goal for my senior yearto win a national title, which
would, of course, mean becomingthe fastest woman in the country

(19:25):
and my respective event.
And so senior year rolls aroundand I'm right on pace to
achieve this goal.
About midway through my seniorseason, so about November of
2021, I was ranked third in thenation in the 200 freestyle uh,
trailing the girl in second, agirl who I knew very well,

(19:46):
because, I mean, like in mostsports, your top tier athletes
know of each other, regardlessof where you compete, because
you've grown up competingagainst each other.
And so she swam at Universityof California, again trailing
her by a few one hundredths of asecond.
But the swimmer who was leadingthe nation by body lengths,
might I add, was a swimmer thatnone of us had ever heard of

(20:09):
before Not myself, not myteammates, not my coaches, not
my parents, uh, and this is thefirst time we became aware of a
swimmer named Leah Thomas.
Lots of red flags at the timeupon seeing this name and the
times that this person wasposting Um, what were your
initial thoughts.

Speaker 1 (20:28):
You were just like this girl's, really like you've
never heard of her.

Speaker 3 (20:35):
That's it Um.
that doesn't happen for for avariety of reasons, but it just
didn't.
I mean, it didn't make sense.
But I'll tell you, the thoughtthat never crossed my mind was
that this was anything otherthan a female.
It never even crossed my mind.
I thought that was such afar-fetched presumption I
figured that I mean it nevereven crossed my mind.
Again, looking at this on paper, we hadn't seen a photo of this

(21:00):
person, or else thingsdefinitely would have been a
little more clear.
But for all I knew at the time,this was a senior which no one
just pops out of nowhere, theirsenior year from University of
Pennsylvania, which, sorry youNortheasterner, they don't have
good swim teams up there.
This is not a school that hasever produced that caliber of a

(21:24):
swimmer, again leading thenation by body lengths, ranging
in events from the 100 freestyle, which is a sprint, and all the
freestyle events in between,through the mile, which is, of
course, long distance.

Speaker 1 (21:36):
So every event.

Speaker 3 (21:37):
Every event, and so that doesn't make sense either,
because I mean, you think aboutthis in terms of your runners,
your Olympic runners.
It's like saying, your best200-meter runner is your best
marathon runner, which?

Speaker 1 (21:48):
doesn't happen, it doesn't happen.

Speaker 3 (21:50):
They're two totally different systems that you're
using, but that's what we wereseeing in this person.
And so I'm so confused.
I'm talking to my coaches, I'mtalking to my teammates who is
this?
We had no idea.
I went to this database where,for example, if you looked up
the name Riley Gaines, you wouldsee my times and my progression
, from when I was eight yearsold all the way through college

(22:13):
and this trend line.
And so I'm looking up the nameLeah Thomas.
There's no history of thisperson until that season.
Again, so confused, and wecontinued to kind of stay in the
dark until an article came outdisclosing that Leah Thomas was
formerly Will Thomas and swamthree years on the men's team at

(22:35):
University of Pennsylvaniabefore deciding to switch to the
women's team.
And so when I read this, it wasactually my coach who sent me
the link, because of course, heknew my goals, he knew how hard
that I worked.
He said you need to read this,and so I read it.
Uh, and of course, naturally, Iwas shocked we all were but

(22:56):
really, upon reading it, it waslike this sense of relief, like
oh oh that makes sense.
This person's not a threat to mebecause they're a man.
There's no way the NCAA willallow this person to compete
with us at our nationalchampionships.
And it was at this point whereI went to that same database and
looked up the name Will Thomas,because I was curious, you know

(23:19):
, was this a lateral movement?
Was this someone who went fromranking amongst the best of the
men to now continuing to rankamongst the best of the women,
which is, of course, not what wesaw?
Uh, we saw this was a mediocreman.
That's actually generous, um,ranking at best in the nation
the year prior, in the sameevent, 554th in the country,

(23:43):
which, again, is why I say Ifelt relieved.
I'm like, oh, the NCAA will seethis.
How I saw it Again, how myfamily saw it, how my coaches
saw it, how my teammates saw it,how anyone with any amount of
brain activity would probablycomprehend this.
Nothing hateful about it,nothing even opinionated about
it.
The mere facts on the paper infront of us, that this was not a

(24:05):
lateral movement.
But, lo and behold, the NCAAdid not see it that way.
They saw absolutely nothingwrong with this, and so, about
three weeks before our nationalchampionships in March of 2022,
they announced that Thomas'sparticipation in the women's
category was a non-negotiable,indicating that there was

(24:26):
nothing that we could do asfemale athletes.
There was no questions that wecould ask or concerns that we
could raise.
We were told we had to acceptthis with a smile on our face.
So that was kind of the lead upto that national championships,
which that's a whole differentscenario.
This is when I got to reallypersonally witness and feel the

(24:49):
effect that this infringement,or what I would call an
injustice, had on myself and myteammates and my competitors.
Of course, I don't claim tospeak for every single girl on
that pool deck, but I do claimto speak for the overwhelming
majority of us Right, because Ican wholeheartedly attest to the

(25:09):
tears that I saw, not just fromthe moms in the stands watching
as their daughters are beingobliterated in the sport that
they once loved, but the tearsfrom the girls who placed ninth
and 17th and missed out on beingnamed an All-American by one
place.
And I can wholeheartedly attestto the extreme discomfort in

(25:30):
the locker room when you turnaround and there's a 6'4"
22-year-old man, fully intact,fully exposing himself, inches
away from where you were,simultaneously fully undressed,
and I can wholeheartedly attestto the whispers, because really
that's what they were thewhispers of anger and

(25:50):
frustration from those girls who, just like myself, had worked
our entire lives to get to thismeet.
And so that first day was the500 freestyle, which is not an
event that I do.
And so I watched on the side ofthe pool as Thomas swam to a
national title to literally noone's surprise.
Again beating Olympians, beatingAmerican record holders.
These aren't scrubs, they'rethe most impressive and

(26:12):
accomplished female swimmersthis world has ever seen.
And he beat them all by bodylinks.
One second might not sound likea lot of time, but in the sport
of swimming again, a sportmeasured down to the hundredth
of a second one second issignificant.
Uh, he beat the entire nationof women by two seconds.
Even the time he went that yearwould have beat every girl the

(26:34):
next season by two full seconds.
Uh, so he became the first manto win a division I NCAA women's
title trailblazer.

Speaker 2 (26:44):
What was the reaction from the Penn State team and
those parents in the stands andother opposing?
I mean, obviously it wasn'tjust you and Penn State, so any
other universities Like?
What was the collective mood?

Speaker 3 (26:58):
Gosh, it's so crazy to me because again, we were at
least on the pool deck operatingthrough, like, through whispers
and points, and in secrecy,which I look back and I think
why in the world, myselfincluded is like, why in the
world did we feel as if wecouldn't say out loud that I
mean really the parable of theemperor wears no clothes, quite

(27:21):
literally in this case, like why, why couldn't we say that?
So it was super unique thatfirst day after Thomas swam,
after he won that national title, the applause and the stands
from the fans, which are reallyjust the parents, their applause
and cheers said what theydidn't say with their mouths.

(27:42):
Their applause and cheers saidwhat they didn't say with their
mouths.
So when the girl, emma Wyant inthe 500 got up, who placed
second, ultimately the rightfulnational champion, the crowd
went wild.
All the parents cheered so loud.
But then when Thomas' name wasannounced to stand atop the
podium, crickets.
So that was the generalconsensus.

(28:05):
Again, no one publicly sayinganything but that right there
and me hearing that.
That was encouragement to me,honestly, um, because and we can
get into all the silencingtactics that that we face, the
intimidation and differentthings that that we faced prior
to this meet that led me tobelieve that my thoughts that I

(28:26):
was having were in the minority,but that kind of thing it
inspired me.
A couple people would yell fromthe stands cheater and I think
I needed to hear that honestly.

Speaker 1 (28:35):
Right, it almost feels like an SNL skater,
something that's so outrageously.

Speaker 3 (28:41):
Like a Babylon Bee headline yeah, south Park
episode.

Speaker 1 (28:49):
You just picture college women lining up on the
blocks and then a six foot fiveguy hops up on the block next to
you In a women's swimsuit,fully intact in a women's
swimsuit, and it's like allright, let's go.
Girls, and nobody's like.
This is the most outrageousthing ever.

Speaker 3 (29:00):
And when we would watch that SNL skit we would
laugh because it's objectivelyhilarious is what it is, and
that was my mood going into this.
It still felt like this circus.
Admittedly, I was almostintrigued.
Of course, I knew the wholetime it was wrong and unfair, I
knew that, but there was a senseof entreatment until I actually

(29:23):
saw this with my own eyes and Ifelt ashamed for laughing at
this or for thinking this wassome kind of comical scenario
that we were in.
Those feelings shifted toheartbreak.

Speaker 1 (29:33):
Right.

Speaker 3 (29:34):
Total demoralization that the people who were
supposed to be protecting us,the people who were supposed to
be ensuring our privacy, ourequal opportunities, our safety
in our sports, had failed on allaccounts.

Speaker 1 (29:51):
What was the process for Thomas to go from competing
with the men to then, in ayear's time, to competing with
the women?

Speaker 3 (30:02):
So the policy that the NCAA had in place since 2010
, so at the time this policy was12 years old was just 12 months
of hormone replacement therapyand then you're set to compete
with whoever or wherever youwant, which, as we know, there

(30:22):
is no amount of HRT that canmitigate male advantage entirely
.
But 12 months of hormonereplacement therapy I mean as
made clear by his nationalrankings when competing against
the men, to competing againstthe women, that's obvious.
But even things thattestosterone doesn't necessarily

(30:43):
affect, like your lung size,like your heart size, like your
height at that point, like thesize of your feet, like even
something as silly as the sizeof your throat it might sound
again pretty irrelevant that menhave on average a 40% larger
throat than women, but whenyou're playing a sport where
you're grasping for air, thatmakes a huge difference, that's

(31:05):
a huge factor of success in oursport, and those are all things
that won't change withtestosterone suppression zero
nanomoles per liter oftestosterone, those things don't
change.

Speaker 1 (31:17):
So do you even think there's any scenario where you
would be okay with that, even ifthey transitioned when they
which would be insane 10, 12years old?

Speaker 3 (31:26):
no, still, it's still super unfair it's still just
wrong.
I mean, this is what, ultimately, you think of title nine, uh,
the federal civil rights lawthat prevents sex-based
discrimination, most notable forgiving equal opportunities in
sports.
I mean, this was only 52 yearsago.
I think we forget that womenwere using their buzzwords here,

(31:49):
once a historically oppressedgroup, and now they're
undermining everything they oncefought for entirely.
So I think any opportunity thatis deemed for a woman, for a
female, that's who theopportunity should go to.
I don't care, I've receivedflack for even chess.

(32:10):
Of course they have men andwomen's chess when competing.
And I know nothing about chess,let's be very clear.
Or darts, for example, or poolbilliards All these sports are
infiltrated with men competingin the women's category and it's
still wrong.
And I'll have people say oh well, if you don't think men should

(32:31):
compete with women in chess,you're just calling women dumb,
you're saying they're not assmart as men.
That's not what I'm saying.
I'm saying if it's for a woman,that's who it should go to.
And we hear this word inclusionall the time.
But understand the woman'scategory, any category in sport,
whether it's age, whether it'sweight class, in sports like
wrestling or boxing.

(32:51):
Right, you have heavyweights,you have featherweights.
They were created purposefullyto be exclusive.
That's not a bad thing.

Speaker 1 (33:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (33:01):
It's actually necessary when safety and
fairness are are at jeopardyhere that's why we have
categories, that's why we havethe paralympics versus the
olympics.
It's not because we're shamingor being right able phobic I
don't know if that's a word umto people who aren't, who don't
have full ability yeah but wehave that in place for a reason.

(33:23):
So any opportunity entitled fora woman all that to say should
go to a woman.

Speaker 1 (33:28):
Yeah, I think that that's the most frustrating part
.
It has nothing to do withtransphobia or anything like
that, and people want tocriticize people who think that
what Leah Thomas did was wrong.
They're like oh, they're justtransphobic and it's like no,
this whole Title IX that we'veimplemented and there's been so
much progress over the years forwomen's rights in sports and

(33:51):
you've seen it, and it's likewe've made so many great big
strides and all of a sudden,just like that, it's like what
was the point of any of that?
And where are all the feministsnow?

Speaker 3 (34:05):
Don't even get me started on this question.
It's crazy to me.
Well, let's lay it out, okay?
So you think of yourtraditional radical, feminist,
left-leaning groups, right?
You think of groups like theNational Organization of Women.
Now, I mean, they were theleading feminist group for what

(34:27):
I mean, 60, 70 years now.
They just posted a piece thispast week that said that I was a
white supremacist patriarchist.
The National Organization ofWomen here I am fighting for
women and they call me apatriarchist.
It's like what in?

Speaker 2 (34:44):
the world.

Speaker 3 (34:45):
It's insane.
Even most recently, when Itestified before Congress, I'm
sat next to the president of theNational Women's Law Center, a
law center dedicated to fightingfor and maintaining the rights
and opportunities andprotections of women, and in her

(35:05):
opening testimony she says thatwomen should just learn how to
lose more gracefully to men.
And it's like do you not hearyourself?
Even think of someone likeBillie Jean King?
This is a woman who we reallyhave to accredit Title IX to If
it weren't for her.
I mean we really have toaccredit Title IX too if it
weren't for her.
I mean she propagated women'ssports, really women as a whole

(35:26):
forward astronomically in the60s and 70s.
She played in the Battle of theSexes and she won, and it was
this huge feat for women.
She is now actively fightingfor male inclusion in women's
sports and women's spaces.
Megan Rapinoe same thing.
Sue Bird we just saw commentsfrom Dawn Staley recently, the

(35:52):
South Carolina women'sbasketball coach.
She's a remarkable coach.
She was a remarkable player.
She's a Hall of Famer.
In her coaching career she'swon, I think, two national
championships the past threeyears.
Her record's like 193 over thepast three seasons.
I mean that's unheard of, it'sunprecedented.
But you can be two things atonce.
You can be a remarkable athlete, a remarkable coach, while also

(36:15):
being a total sellout, which isexactly what she is.
A reporter asked her you know,I believe it was right before
the national championship gamewould you be okay with allowing
trans women males onto your team?
And she stutters and she drinksher water and she, I think, in

(36:36):
this moment, realizes that shehas to walk this line of being
politically correct, but shesays outright yes, I would be
okay with it.

Speaker 1 (36:45):
There's no way, Cause I'm like there's no.

Speaker 3 (36:48):
Imagine the Yukon men's team.

Speaker 1 (36:49):
Yeah Well, sue Bird, I mean, that's disappointing to
hear that she's now.

Speaker 3 (36:53):
Oh gosh.

Speaker 1 (36:54):
Saying, yeah, of course, it's fine.
It's like, okay, sue.
So if you were LeBron James,transition to women and all of a
sudden he's guarding you downthe block stronger, bigger, and
you're not getting the pointsthat you need to get, you're not
getting the championship thatyou want to get, you're not

(37:15):
getting drafted at the positionthat you want to get drafted.
Because of this guy, nobodywould know who you are.
Same with Megan Rapinoe it'slike there's a six foot five
center back who's guarding her.
She's not going to do anythingshe wants to, but she's going to
sit up here and say thatbecause she needs to be
politically correct.

Speaker 3 (37:31):
And she's done with her both.

Speaker 1 (37:32):
All of these people are done with their careers you
know, and they don't havedaughters to defend, so it's a
classic case of a virtuesignaling is what it is, and
also I feel like people notstepping up or expressing the
disadvantage of somebody likeThomas.
I also think that that ispeople who are afraid to get
quote unquote, canceled in,canceled culture.

(37:54):
They are afraid to say it outloud.

Speaker 3 (37:58):
Definitely 100%.
And it goes back to, like Isaid, um, being in this
environment where it was superhush hush, we talked in secrecy,
behind closed doors.
Um, we'd call our parents onthe phone, hoping our roommates
wouldn't hear us on the otherside of of our dorm room, but
really they were doing the exactsame thing too.
Um, I, I couldn't be moreappalled with the lack of

(38:24):
authority, the lack of morality,what I would say of these
coaches, of people within theNCAA, of people with political
power, um, who are unwilling todo the right thing, really, what
they are, I think, what ournation is governed by, whether
it's whether it is ourgovernment, whether it's

(38:45):
academia, whether it's corporateAmerica, whether it's even,
seemingly, our spiritual leaders.
We have so many weak-kneed,spineless, morally bankrupt
cowards leading this countrywhich, ultimately, that's, I
think, for a couple reasonswe're at this place and really
in this decline that we are, oneof which because we live in a

(39:07):
godless society, but two,because we have weak, weak
leaders.

Speaker 1 (39:10):
And it's sad because of the amount of work that you
girls put in.
There's not a single swimmer,and you said that you speak for
the majority of people.
There couldn't be a singleperson who thought that that was
right and you can't do anythingabout it, and it's people who
are in charge who are makingthese decisions, but everybody
who's competing knows it's notright.

(39:32):
The girls know it's not right,but you have people that have
higher power trying to tell youwhat to do and what's fair.

Speaker 3 (39:39):
Yeah, and then telling us that we're the
problem if we disagree.
Back to the locker room pieceThomas's teammates.
I mean, they were forced toundress in front of him 18 times
every single week.
I only competed against him atthis one week long championships
.
They dealt with it all seasonAgain, 18 times, fully

(40:01):
undressing.
Many of these girls, aftertalking with them, are survivors
of sexual assault themselves.
One girl in particular wasraped in a bathroom setting
prior to coming to college.
And so experiencing this againthis is based off what she's
told me, experiencing this goingto her coaches saying hey, this

(40:21):
is really hard for me to dealwith.
It has nothing to do with LeahThomas, it has to do with my
experience and the fact that Idon't want to see a naked man
and I don't want a naked manseeing me naked.
And her coaches said well, Isuggest you learn how to be kind
and I suggest you learn how tobe inclusive.
That's what these girls I know.
That's what these girls weredealing with 16 of them actually

(40:44):
.
Thomas's teammates sent an emailto their administration um,
specifically what their parentssigned on, specifically
expressing their discomfort inthe locker room, and their
university responded back withif you feel uncomfortable seeing
male genitalia.
Here's some counselingresources that you should seek
and an attempt to reeducateyourself.
Here's some counselingresources that you should seek
in an attempt to re-educateyourself.
And, of course, the counselingresources were provided through

(41:06):
the campus's LGBTQ educationcenter.

Speaker 1 (41:09):
Do any of these people have kids at home?
Do they not put themselves inthat situation if that was their
daughter?

Speaker 3 (41:15):
If they do, I think CPS needs to be called, because
it's disgusting, it's perverseand again you're a sellout, but
at this point, to your own child, which is just sickening.
That's what I think when I seea lot of our elected officials.
This issue has fallen almostentirely on party lines, at

(41:35):
least in the way that the mediaportrays it and how again our
elected officials are voting.
It certainly isn't party linesamong the general public, but I
see these Democrats voting inopposition of protecting women
and girls in sports and it just,I mean it breaks my heart
honestly, for their kids, fortheir daughters.
Disgusting is what it is ifyou're comfortable.

Speaker 2 (42:03):
You mentioned earlier silencing techniques that you
experienced.
I would really like to revisitthat if you can elaborate on
what you guys experienced.
I feel, like it's important tohear, because sometimes I feel
like silencing techniques arealmost a Jedi mind trick and the
fact that you don't evenrealize you're being silenced
until you're almost out of it oron the other side of it, or
someone else presented it to youin a different light or

(42:23):
something along those lines 100%, and that's certainly what we
all, I would say, experiencedLeading up to this meet.

Speaker 3 (42:36):
We knew at least our administrators knew this meet
was going to get a lot ofnational attention Swimming is
not a sport that typically hasnational attention and so they
sat me down.
They brought in an outsideprofessional, whatever that
means, who.
It was like this mock interviewsetting.
They knew that I would probablybe in the final with Thomas, so

(42:59):
they wanted to give me trainingon how to approach this topic,
and so they sat me down.
It was like a mock interviewsetting.
They threw interview questionsat me and they taught me how to
use she, her pronouns.
If I didn't answer thequestions to their standard, I
had to re-go through thetraining.
We were told at University ofKentucky look, you will never

(43:21):
get a job if you speak up aboutthis.
You know your employer is goingto look you up.
They're going to see thatyou're a transphobe and you
don't want that, do you?
You know you're never going toget into grad school.
And, riley, you know you're setto be a dentist.
You're never going to get intodental school if you speak up
about this.
They said you'll lose yourfriends, you'll lose your
scholarship.
Oh yeah, and really, speakingof that scholarship, now they

(43:44):
told me remember you signed thatand when you sign that, you
gave away your rights to speakin your own personal capacity.
Remember you represent us,whose name is across your chest
and across your cap, becauseit's not yours, it's ours.
And understand, we have alreadytaken your stance for you Again
.
Thomas's teammates I mentionedthe emotional blackmail, really,

(44:09):
that they received in thatemail.
They were forced to go tomandatory LGBTQ education
meetings weekly to learn abouthow, just by being cisgender,
they were oppressing Leah Thomas.
Their university even went asfar as to tell them that if they
did speak up about this and anyharm whatsoever were to come

(44:30):
towards Thomas's way whether itwas physical harm, emotional
harm, self-inflicted, for thatmatter they said then understand
, you are solely responsible andthat would make you responsible
for a potential death, and youdon't want to be a murderer, do
you, no again?
So I suggest you be kind and Isuggest you be inclusive, but I

(44:53):
mean, let that really sink in.
I'm upset too, logs.

Speaker 2 (44:57):
I'm so sorry for hearing this.

Speaker 3 (44:58):
This is crazy, I know , but I mean really.
They were telling these girlsthat they would have blood on
their hands if they advocatedfor fair play and privacy in
areas of undressing.
They would be murderers.
And believe it or not, that'seffective when you're talking to
a bunch of 18, 19, 20-year-oldgirls?
Of course it's.

(45:31):
And again, I could keep goingabout the different ways to get
us to submit, to coerce us intosilence, because, again, I am
not unique in the way that Ifeel, but unique in the way that
, despite the tactics they use,still willing to do the right
and the fair and the just andthe moral thing.

Speaker 1 (45:46):
Right.
Is there any part of you thatfeels bad for Leah Thomas?

Speaker 3 (45:52):
Of course, I think Leah Thomas is entirely deceived
as well.

Speaker 1 (45:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (45:56):
I mean, look, he was lied to, which is what this
whole movement, the genderideology movement as a whole, is
built on manipulation.
It's built on deception.
Um, and so he was deceived yeahwhich, again, ultimately, who
do you blame?
do you blame someone like thomasor do you blame the people who
ultimately deceived him?

(46:16):
Right, I don't.
I mean, I think he thought hewas doing the right thing, which
, again, more importantly, as aChristian, I believe it's our
purpose on this planet to spreadhis word, his gospel, his
message.
Yeah, and he's very clear insaying that he and when I say he
, I mean our wonderful and justcreator created man and woman

(46:44):
perfectly and intentionally inhis image.
So I think it's up to us toteach these people, or at least
try to highlight, spreadawareness to what is right and
what is wrong, because, again,these people, people who
identify as trans, people whoare pushing this movement,
people who don't see thismovement as harmful, they've

(47:05):
ultimately been deceived.

Speaker 1 (47:06):
Yeah, yeah.
Because when I look at thatpicture of him on the podium and
then is it, you and anotherswimmer are kind of off to the
side together I'm like this isjust a sad situation for
everybody, for Leah, for youguys, and it just shows like how
the people at the top justmessed everything up.

Speaker 3 (47:27):
Entirely.
So.
Yeah, I have no animositytowards Thomas.
I really don't.
What Thomas does behind closeddoors, I don't care.
That's the beauty of America.
I don't want someone infringingon my rights, my freedoms.
I don't want to infringe on hisrights and his freedoms, but
that can't come at the expenseof my rights, of our privacy and

(47:51):
safety and equal opportunityendowed to us through Title IX,
and I don't want it to cost mytaxpayer dollars.
So look, if that's the waythings can on.
But again, it's important is,at the same national

(48:25):
championships where we had LeahThomas, again a six foot four
man identifying as a woman, whowe were told we fully had to
treat as a woman, we had anotherathlete who was transitioning,
but this athlete is a female whobegan to self-identify as a man
, who we were told we fully hadto treat as a man.

(48:47):
Izzy now goes by the name ofIsaac.
They never pick creative names.
Izzy now goes by the name ofIsaac swimming at Yale, which,
like, of course, she was.
Yeah, of course she was, becausewhat's up with the ivy leagues?
Yeah, these are supposed to beplaces of higher education, but
daily they are proving that tobe more and more false.

(49:09):
Um, is he now I isaac?
Uh, again, optics purposes.
Follow along if you even can.
It's the finals of the.
The women's hundred freestyle,you've got a six foot four man
and a women's swimsuit.
Of the women's 100 freestyle,you've got a six foot four man
in a women's swimsuit with abulge, next to a woman wearing

(49:29):
only a Speedo with nothingcovering her top.
They both wrote on their armsin big black Sharpie let trans
kids play.
As if they both weren't playingin the category that best
suited them.
I'm sitting there watching thisand I'm like it's me, I'm the
crazy one.
It must be.
This is the freaking TwilightZone, to your point.

(49:50):
An SNL skit is what this was.
But it begs the question of ifwe were really basing this off
gender identity, like the NCAAclaims, like the Biden
administration claims, like theIOC, the International Olympic
administration claims, like theIOC, the International Olympic
Committee claims, then why didwe have someone identifying as a
man competing with the women?
And of course, that'srhetorical, because anyone with

(50:13):
a brain, or heart for thatmatter could answer this
question, and that's becauseIzzy now Isaac would never and
will never be able to compete atthe same level against the men.
She ended up placing fifth inthe country in the 100 free,
which is an incredibleachievement if you're not taking
performance enhancing drugs.
But now she is competing withthe men Finishes dead last every

(50:37):
single time.
The one meet I watched of hersthis year, the only male swimmer
she beat was a man who had onearm.
Yeah, and I don't say that tomake a mockery, I don't say that
to be funny.

Speaker 1 (50:52):
I don't say that to do anything other than highlight
reality.

Speaker 3 (50:53):
Men are different than women, exactly.

Speaker 2 (50:55):
So was there ever any conversation?
So they're pushing, they'reasking you to be inclusive and
to essentially make Leah Thomasfeel as though she is one of you
guys at any cost, at any point.
Did anyone say, well, whatabout us?
What about like?

(51:17):
Okay, if you're going to, whatabout me?
Who has been getting up sincefive o'clock or four o'clock in
the morning since I was fouryears old trying to make this
dream come true?
No one, I just I have a hardtime connecting the narrative of
being inclusive and making sureeverybody feels like they have
a place, except for the onesthat have been there the whole

(51:38):
time, or I guess I don't knowhow to connect the two.
Did anyone ever bridge that gapfor you when you were in the
NCAA and say this is why?

Speaker 3 (51:47):
Anytime.
I raise this concern to anyoneagain, whether it was a coach,
whether it was an official orwhat have you.
Every single time they saidwell, our hands are tied, we
can't do it.
Who's?

Speaker 2 (51:58):
tying them, though You're the governing body.

Speaker 3 (52:01):
Exactly, um, but that was their response every single
time, um, which is, again, itdoes just leave you baffled and
to your point about, aboutbanning almost I mean
prioritizing the men instead ofthe women in women's sports.
Just this past week in westvirginia there was a middle

(52:24):
school track and field meet.
Um, there's actually a fourthcircuit us court of appeals
ruling a couple weeks ago thatultimately shot down West
Virginia's Fairness and Women'sSports Act, specifically in the
case of one boy, 13 years old,who began taking hormone
blockers at eight that wouldultimately allow him to compete

(52:45):
in the sport that aligns withhis gender identity, which is
with the girls.
And so there were five girlsagain middle school track and
field meet, who were set tocompete against this boy in shot
put.
And they, they said we don'twant to, we don't want to
compete with the boy, we don'twant to fight for second place,
we deserve to win, we deserve tobe called champions, we're
worthy of that.
And so they decided we're notgoing to compete, we're going to

(53:09):
get in, we're going to step inthe ring, the circle, and we're
going to walk right out.
That will be our form of ofshowing or expressing our
opposition is by conceding thosefive girls.
Oh my gosh, so brave, soinspiring.
It's so sad actually that the13 year olds have to be the
adults in the room.
But their school, their middleschool, responded with their

(53:32):
coach banning them from futurecompetitions because they took
that stand Banning the girlsfrom girls sports rather than
the boy from girls sports.

Speaker 1 (53:44):
I mean none.
Of it makes sense.

Speaker 3 (53:47):
No.

Speaker 1 (53:47):
None of it.
I feel like we're just in sucha time of overcorrection with
everything in society, 100%,where we're going to look back
one day and just be like thatwas stupid, what have we done?
What have we done?
Look, back.

Speaker 2 (54:01):
I'm feeling it right now.

Speaker 1 (54:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (54:04):
Was there ever a time in your career or obviously,
like you said, you were set upfor dental school You're going
to have a different path.
This path is not what youimagined.
Was there a defining point thatyou were like all right, I
guess it's going to be me.
I'm going to be the one that'sgoing to say something, because
this is not an SNL skit.
This is reality and this is,you know, for your potential

(54:25):
future children, for the otherlittle girls that have looked up
to you, cause I know that youshared a pool with younger
generations of girls that werelike, oh my gosh, that's so cool
, because I I know that existed.
I've been that little girl,I've been the leader that's been
in the gym with the youngergirls and it's just a
responsibility that you feelnaturally and organically to

(54:48):
grow with.
And when did that become moreso than just like, all right,
I'm not just going to be a rolemodel here inside the pool, I'm
taking this outside as well.

Speaker 3 (54:56):
I think I had two.
If I think about this, I thinkthere were kind of two defining
moments for me.
The first one was when he and Icompeted against each other, um
and the 200 free, which was theday after he won the national
championship in the 500.
And so, of course, you know, weget on the blocks, dive off,
swim eight laps of freestyle,touch the wall at the end.

(55:16):
I look up at the scoreboard and,almost impossibly enough, we
had tied, meaning we went theexact same time down to the
hundredth of a second, which oneis incredibly embarrassing for
a six foot four man.
One is incredibly embarrassingfor a six foot four man, but two
.
It's rare.
When you're racing for a minuteand 40 seconds and not even one

(55:39):
100th separated us, which youcan't tell me.
That's not divine intervention.
But anyways, we get out of thewater, go behind the awards
podium where the NCAA officiallooks at both Thomas and myself
Thomas, who's towering over meagain at six foot four.
This official says great job,you two, but you tied and we
only have one trophy.

(56:00):
So we're going to give thetrophy to Leah.
Sorry, riley, you don't get one.

Speaker 2 (56:06):
And this is at the national championship.

Speaker 3 (56:07):
Yes, and so, having just competed, my heart rate is
so high, my adrenaline is stillpumping, and so the first thing
that I thought was the firstthing that I said, and the first
thing that I thought was isn'tthis everything that Title IX
was passed to prevent fromhappening?
What do you mean?
You're going to give the trophyto the man in the women's 200

(56:30):
free?
This is really when I just Ithis was I let loose.
Um, I didn't care who wasaround me, I didn't care that
Thomas was two inches away fromme, I didn't care.
Um, I said what is yourjustification again for giving
the man the trophy here?
Never once did Thomas offer thetrophy or say we could share no
, not once.
Which I mentioned.

(56:51):
I don't have any animositytowards Thomas.
That doesn't mean I don't thinkhe's a total narcissist and
displayed an utter disregard forus as women and our feelings,
our privacy, our opportunities.
But ultimately he was followingthe rules.
So again, no animosity there,but I do have thoughts on how he

(57:13):
portrayed himself Anyways there.
But I do have thoughts on howhe portrayed himself, anyways,
when asking the question, thedreaded question that no one
dared ask all season, of why theNCAA official didn't know how
to respond.
They didn't give him a scriptof what to say when someone
asked why, and so he stumbled onhis words and he's well.
And the first excuse he saidwas well, we're just doing this

(57:36):
in chronological order, clearlychoking on his words, having no
idea what to say chronologicalorder.
We tied that's exactly what Isaid.
I'm like, do you meanalphabetical, because g comes
before t, otherwise, likethere's like what are you being
chronological about?
Um?
And it was at this point herealized he was in a corner and
there was nothing that he couldsay that that could actually

(57:57):
justify this.
And so this is when andunderstand, this is when his
face changed.
Okay, he looked sad, his voicesounded sad.
I could tell he didn't evenbelieve what he was about to say
.
But he looked at me and he saidRiley, I, I'm so sorry, but we
have been advised as anorganization that when photos
are being taken, it's crucialthat the trophy's in Leah's

(58:19):
hands.
That was it for me.
What did you say back to that?
I kind of was in this state ofdisbelief really how it went.
I'm explaining it a lot moremild.
I mean, I'm like this is BS andyou know it.
My coach is back there.

Speaker 2 (58:37):
I was going to say I thought you kept it together
this whole time and I was likegood on you.

Speaker 3 (58:40):
No, my coach is back there too, and my coach is
incredibly supportive of me andthis stand, and so he's back
there.
He's going off on this official.
This poor official is like notknowing what to do Again, all
the while thomas is sayingabsolutely nothing.
And so, like I said, we knewall season the unfair

(59:03):
competition was wrong.
We knew the locker room waswrong, we knew the silencing
that we faced.
We knew all that was wrong.
But it wasn't until thisofficial reduced everything that
we had worked our entire livesfor down to a photo op to
validate the feelings and theidentity of a man at the expense
of our own.
That's when I was like I'm nolonger willing to wait, wait for

(59:24):
someone else.
And it hit me.
I remember distinctly.
I'm standing on the podiumagain, sharing my placement, my
spot, with a man towering overme holding this trophy.
I know I have to give back.
They let me pose with adifferent one, but they said you
have to give yours back.

Speaker 2 (59:38):
How nice of them.
Oh, so sweet right.

Speaker 3 (59:40):
Holding this trophy.
I know I have to give back tothem.
And it hit me All the whileagain, I'm clapping, I'm
cheering, I'm smiling.
I didn't know what else to doin these moments.
And in that moment I rememberthinking to myself why in the
world am I smiling?
Why in the world am Iapplauding?
Because what am I cheering on?
I'm cheering on our own erasure, our own demolition.

(01:00:03):
And that's when I decided,really again this realization of
how in the world could weexpect someone else to stand up
for us if we weren't evenwilling to stand up for
ourselves?
This has to even willing tostand up for ourselves.
This has to come from us aswomen, as female athletes.
So that was, I think, the first, the initial push that I needed
, and secondly, the seconddefining moment.

(01:00:30):
About a year later I'd beenoutspoken at this point.
Um, I had dedicated a lot of mytime to talking about this.
You know different news outlets, I had been to different press
conferences and testified anddifferent things, not nearly to
the caliber of this activismrole that I've taken on now, but
I was speaking.
There was a group, a turningpoint chapter at San Francisco

(01:00:52):
State University that invited meto come out to San Francisco,
at their campus and speak totheir students.
I thought this is great.
You know, I understand I'm kindof entering into the belly of
the beast.
I know San Francisco is a lotdifferent than here in my home
state of Tennessee, but italmost excited me because these

(01:01:13):
are the people who needed tohear the message.
You can preach to the choir allday long, but what impact are
you really having?
And so I was excited.
I was naive to think that thesestudents would come with an open
mind and the willingness tohave their heart softened.
Because they did not.
They came with pitchforks andfire and upon delivering my

(01:01:36):
remarks, to a room full ofopposition I'm talking a room
full.
Everyone in that audience hatedme.
They were all there strictly toshow their face and make it be
known that they hated me, whichI didn't care Again.
That's who needed to hear it.
But in delivering these, uh, agroup of protesters from the
outside, hundreds of them,entered into the room.

(01:01:58):
They turned off the lights atthe back of the room.
They rushed to the front whereI was standing.
It was a classroom setting, soI was at the front, you know, by
a whiteboard with the podium.
Uh, and that's when theseprotesters start just ambushing
me.
I'm talking, I'm being pushed,I'm being shoved, I'm being
punched in the face by these menwho are wearing dresses, which,

(01:02:18):
fortunately for me, theirpunches really don't hurt that
bad.
But ultimately these protestersended up holding me for ransom
for hours through the middle ofthe night, demanding that if I
wanted to make it home to see myfamily safely again, I had to
pay them money.
All the while, while you mightbe thinking okay, well, where
are the police?
It's San Francisco.

(01:02:39):
The police are being held forransom with me.
I'm looking at the officers inthis room and I'm like, pretty
sure we're being held againstour will.
Pretty sure we call thatkidnapping.
Isn't there something you cando?
To which even the officer saidno, our hands are tied, there's
nothing we can do.
We're not allowed to doanything because we're not
allowed to be seen as anythingother than an ally to that

(01:03:00):
community or else we'll lose ourjobs.
Then, of course, this is thesame community on the other side
of the door calling theofficers racist pigs for
protecting a white girl like me,and the dean of students shows
up again in the middle of thenight.
Midnight starts negotiating withthe students how much I owe
each of them to leave which.
The price they agreed upon was$10 each, which makes me mad

(01:03:22):
because I think I'm worth morethan $10.

Speaker 1 (01:03:24):
Damn.

Speaker 3 (01:03:25):
Granted, there was a lot of them.

Speaker 2 (01:03:27):
Wow, that negotiation , though I know $10.
I know.

Speaker 3 (01:03:30):
Okay, no-transcript, and we stand with you so sad um,

(01:04:07):
that was the second definingmoment where I, honestly, it was
at that point that I realized,um, just how desperately they
don't even want you to shareyour lived experience.
I wasn't there to shareopinions, I wasn't there to
spout off any sort of hate.
I mean, what we're talkingabout, what we went through

(01:04:29):
reality, they so desperatelydon't want you doing that.
So that, I think, was thesecond defining moment for me in
terms of understanding whatwe're up against.
Number one understanding howcrucial it is that we find our
voices, that we be bold, we becourageous, we stand up to the
bullies, because that's whatthey are they're bullies.

(01:04:49):
So I would say those two things.

Speaker 2 (01:04:54):
And that was how long ago.

Speaker 3 (01:04:55):
That was a year ago.
Okay, what's?

Speaker 1 (01:04:57):
crazy about that is.
I sent you a message.
You were here.

Speaker 2 (01:05:01):
Yeah, we were here.

Speaker 1 (01:05:02):
I sent you a message that morning before all that
happened.

Speaker 3 (01:05:06):
That's wild, like a few hours and then that's
probably why I got lost in themix.

Speaker 1 (01:05:09):
I know that's why like the next day I was like
well send her a message at apretty bad time because all of a
sudden you were all over thenews and you must have got a
million messages.
It was that same day.

Speaker 2 (01:05:19):
It was.
I'm sorry.
I just want to go back to theschool invited you out.

Speaker 3 (01:05:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:05:30):
Then they were threatened by your presence, but
not by the fact that you wereheld hostage with police.
That's okay.

Speaker 3 (01:05:33):
Yeah, okay, that's okay, I just want to make sure,
yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:05:35):
And then, on top of that, we're going to not even
double down.
We're going to triple down.
Yep, take the day off of school.

Speaker 3 (01:05:40):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (01:05:41):
You might need to recover from that traumatic
experience you had of whatNeeding $10?
That sounds pretty traumatic.

Speaker 3 (01:05:47):
You can't even get me out of bed for $10.
Oh God.

Speaker 2 (01:05:50):
You are so much more eloquent and well-spoken and
maybe you've just been livingthis reality much longer than
those of us that have beenafforded the luxury of not
necessarily having to confrontthis head-on like you have.
I give you mad props because Iwould be in jail.
Yeah, and it's You're sweet.
No, I'm not.

(01:06:10):
That's the thing is that I justI give you so much credit for
not only being educated butwell-spoken and, like you said,
I'm not spouting opinions thatI've just created.
I'm just sharing reality.

Speaker 3 (01:06:25):
Boom.

Speaker 2 (01:06:26):
It's important to hear.

Speaker 3 (01:06:27):
Yeah, no, it is Um, and you're right, it's.
It's been a a process oflearning how to talk about it,
even literally, in the languagethat I use.
I thought it was kind at firstto use the preferred pronouns.
I wanted to be respectful, Ithought that's what respect was,
and then I realized I'm likewho am I respecting?

(01:06:48):
Because that's not respectfulto Leah Thomas.
This is someone, as I said,who's been deceived and I'm only
further participating in thefarce if I go along with this.
That's not what respect is.
Even the verbiage of transwoman I won't say that now,
because I think that impliesthat I believe that a male

(01:07:09):
identifying as a woman is somesubset of a woman, and they're
not.
It's just male.
Even saying bi, I get so sickof it.
It's biological, oh my gosh.
Biological female, biologicalman like I.
Again, I, I adhered to this.
I thought it was necessary um,and making the distinction right
.
Like I'm.
I mean I'm, I'm a biologicalbeing, I'm made of biological

(01:07:32):
matter and I'm a female.
I'm a biological female, thomasis a biological male.
And I'm sitting there one day,uh, having taken many upper
level math courses in college,and I'm like, huh, if this was
an algebra equation, wouldn'tthat word biological just like
cancel out?
Like why are we saying that?
And it hit me what we weredoing.

(01:07:53):
It's like, like why are wesaying that?
And it hit me what we weredoing?
It's like when we do that, weare subconsciously, even if we
don't know it.
I mean, we're playing theirgame, we're adhering, we're
admitting that there's some sortof unbiological alternative to
being a male or a female, or aman or a woman or a girl or a

(01:08:14):
boy.
And there's not so learning somuch.
Even the verbiage of sexreassignment surgery.
I just won't say that Because,again, it's admitting that I
think someone can reassign theirsex, and it's the first step to
playing the part.
And you can't.
You can get a mastectomy, aradical double mastectomy, but
let's call it what it is.
That's not a sex reassignmentsurgery, it's a mastectomy.

(01:08:37):
The verbiage of genderaffirming care it sounds so
positive.

Speaker 1 (01:08:39):
Yeah, just a man.
Reassignment, yeah, using thatword.

Speaker 3 (01:08:43):
Yeah.
So I've had to learn all thatto say like it really has been
gosh.
I mean two years at this pointof learning and adapting and
framing my messaging, becauseultimately, what I want to do
here is help people understandexactly what we felt and

(01:09:04):
experienced.
And it's not hatred, that's nothow we felt.
We felt betrayed, we feltviolated, we felt heartbroken.
So, understanding that theframing of this argument and my
stand as a whole it really ispro, it's pro fairness, it's pro
reality, it's pro transparency,it's pro safety, pro privacy,
pro equal opportunity, it's prowoman, the stand that I have

(01:09:28):
taken I'm standing for somethingrather than standing against
anything.
So the people who say this isanti-trans, it's pro-woman, and
if being pro-woman isimmediately deemed anti-trans,
then wouldn't being pro-transinherently be anti-woman?
And what do we call those whoare anti-woman?

(01:09:49):
We call them misogynists.
So their argument always foldson itself.
It really does.
But learning how to kind ofmanipulate to a degree that
conversation using their ownintersectional language against
them.
They hate it If I say, well,I'm just speaking my truth.
That was a phrase that the leftcoined for so long, and they're
like factory resetting when yousay that.

(01:10:10):
So again, it's never stoopingto their level, but learning how
to play the game as well asthey do.

Speaker 2 (01:10:17):
Over the last two years that you've been, you know
really the face of I feel likearguably one of the most
important conversations andcorrect me if I'm wrong, guys I
feel like this entire I don'teven like topic, I guess really
presented itself during thepandemic 100%.

(01:10:39):
Was I just naive in thinkingthat I just missed out because I
was too concentrated on my ownlife?
Maybe, but I feel like itreally became more public social
media on every news outlet andvery much like a hot topic for
people to discuss.
But you've been the face ofthat for two years now.
What is something that you cansay?
You've been the face of thatfor two years now.
What is something that you cansay you're the most proud of,

(01:10:59):
that you feel has moved in apositive direction from this?

Speaker 3 (01:11:02):
A couple things I really have, I feel like, been
impactful in many different wayson many different fronts.
So, from the legislative sideof things, uh, there are now 24
States that have enacted somesort of fairness and women's
sports law that basically, just,I mean it just says you compete

(01:11:25):
with your sex.
Um, so that's been huge.
I've testified and in virtuallyall of these States, um, most
recently, recently, I think, inAlaska.
So that's been, um, certainly abig push, um getting
legislative bodies to do theright thing here.
Uh, there are now five states.
I've I've helped work anddevelop and implement a bill

(01:11:46):
called the women's bill ofrights, which is I can't even
believe it's necessary.
It's a bill that defines andcodifies the word woman.
It's wild to me, like I said,that this is necessary, but we
have a sitting Supreme Courtjustice who can't even answer
what a woman is because sheclaims she's not a biologist.
Well, guess what?

(01:12:07):
I'm not a veterinarian, but Iknow what a dog is.
That's the stupidest thing I'veever heard.
And it's no surprise that thisis the same Supreme Court
justice who, just a week, twoweeks ago, in an interview she
said she felt like our FirstAmendment rights were
hamstringing the governmentPrecisely.
That is precisely what ourFirst Amendment rights are

(01:12:28):
supposed to do, and if ourgovernment can't understand or
abide by that, that's preciselywhy we have the Second Amendment
.
So no surprise there.
It's necessary and I wouldargue that it's urgent we define
this word woman.
So that has been done in Kansas, Tennessee, Oklahoma, Nebraska,
most recently in Idaho, and toreally highlight how this

(01:12:48):
movement, the feminist movement,has flipped on its head,
Tennessee was the 36th state topass laws that allowed women to
vote, but they're the secondstate to define what a woman is.
It shows you the 180 that thismovement has really done here.
So very proud of those things.

(01:13:08):
It's, you know, testifyingbefore Congress and the Senate
many times.
I was so intimidated when Ifirst testified before US
Congress because I mean, theseare the heavy hitters, these are
the people who govern theentire country and me being, I
think, 22, 23 years old at thetime.
I'm sitting there and withinfive minutes I realized, oh my

(01:13:33):
gosh, why was I intimidated?
These people are stupid.
These people are actually dumb.
They have counsel and staff whodo everything for them.
If you can get them off thatlittle sheet of paper that their
handlers have prepared for them, they don't know what they're
talking about.
So I think my own of KeithOlbermann.
I'll be proud of that for awhile, yeah own of Keith

(01:13:54):
Olbermann.

Speaker 2 (01:13:55):
I'll be proud of that for a while.
Yeah, I was going to bring thatup because, obviously, when
Sean let me know that you guysare, or you were, coming in, I
obviously went to your Instagram.
This first thing I'm going todo millennial, I'm going to
creep on it.
I couldn't have liked I could.
I almost broke my phone likingit because you're like oh sorry,
I actually broke this one whenI just was here to prove you
incorrect.
I don't even have to trybecause, look, I have 24 more

(01:14:15):
right here.

Speaker 3 (01:14:16):
It's so cool, though, cause the SEC saw that video
and they saw where I broke thetrophy and they sent me another
one.
They're like we hate that youhad to waste a trophy proving a
point to a seen out old man.
So here's a new one, which Ithought was incredible.

Speaker 1 (01:14:30):
That's fantastic, yeah, and you should be very
proud of all that, and I couldtalk about this all day long
with you.
We're gonna get things wrappedup here.
A couple quick questions foryou.

Speaker 3 (01:14:40):
uh, I want to know what your dad was thinking
during all this yeah, um, so weweren't forewarned about the
locker room portion, and so, uh,the first time we became aware
that we would be undressing nextto him was when we were inches
away from said man, again fullynaked, fully male genitalia so

(01:15:02):
he was just hanging out like noteven trying to like just dress
in the corner or he wasn't likethis is kind of weird just
hanging out thing is he's still,at the time, sexually active
with womenthat was my next question he
called himself a lesbian, though, but it's just a man, it's just
a straight man at this point soit's a man in the locker room
naked who's attracted to womenexposing himself in front of him

(01:15:24):
and so I called my dad.
After, like after this scenario,of course, every girl in that
locker room covered themselvesand got out as quickly as they
could, and I I called my dad.
I'm like, oh my gosh, everygirl in that locker room covered
themselves and got out asquickly as they could and I
called my dad.
I'm like, oh my gosh, he's inour locker room, dad.
He's like I'm coming down thereand I'm going to handle this
myself.
To which I had to say, dad, wealready have one man in the

(01:15:48):
locker room, we don't need toand you'll go to jail.
He really would be in jail.
And that was another push of oflook, I'll handle it.
I got this dad like I don'twant you in jail, behind bars,
that's where he would be.
So yeah as would any good dad ofcourse, could you imagine, um,

(01:16:08):
and as you would teach your sonto be a respectful and honorable
man who would never, even in amillion years, dream of doing
that.
Yeah, any good parent wouldrespond in the way that my dad
did.

Speaker 1 (01:16:26):
Right, and you said the girls on Thomas's team had
to deal with that all season.
Were they friendly with them,do you know?
Did they have relationshipswith him, or was he just
secluded the entire time?

Speaker 3 (01:16:39):
It was weird.
It was, first of all, again,Penn doesn't have NCAA
qualifiers.
Normally they only take 40people in each event or so not
even 40.
So it's a very exclusive meet,so he didn't have other.
I think he had maybe one otherteammate there, but his team

(01:17:04):
wasn't there.
But the gaslighting andemotional blackmail that they
faced all season it really didmess with a lot of girls.
Some of them initially weren'tokay with this, but then, after
meetings and coaching andre-education, we're okay with it
.
Some of them weren't okay withit the entire time, so it was
it's.
I mean, again, they're tactics,they're effective, it works.

Speaker 1 (01:17:23):
Crazy, it's all crazy .
Well, where can everybody findyou?
What are you working on now?
You got your own podcast.

Speaker 3 (01:17:29):
I do.
I have a podcast with Outkick.
It's called Gains for Girls.
It's super fun to be on theother side of things, talking
with policy experts and peoplewho have been impacted by this
movement.
What have you?
I just wrote a book which wasexciting.
It's called Swimming Againstthe Current Fighting for Common
Sense in a World that's Lost ItsMind.

(01:17:50):
So that's, I think, on Amazonor wherever people get books
nowadays.
And that's, I think, on Amazonor wherever people get books
nowadays.
Um, and that's out now.
It is comes out in may, butit's available for pre-order and
different things.
So that was fun.
It was a unique process to beable to, you know, write your
own book.
Um, I did the audio recording.

Speaker 1 (01:18:09):
Yeah, oh my gosh Brutal.

Speaker 3 (01:18:11):
No one told me how hard that was going to be.
I mean it was it was brutal.

Speaker 1 (01:18:16):
I'm a big, a big audiobook guy, so I'll probably
download the audiobook.

Speaker 3 (01:18:18):
There we go, yeah um, so just finish that.
You can find me on x or twitterat riley, underscore, gains,
underscore.
Um, that's where I do most ofof my posting.
God bless, elon musk.
Yes, for creating anenvironment of free speech and
no censoring.
My stuff gets censored.
I imagine you're similareverywhere, tiktok, I mean,

(01:18:41):
forget it.
They won't let me keep a videoup for more than five minutes.
Even saying nothing bad,they'll just delete it right
away.
Meta so X is where I do most ofmy day-to-day posting.

Speaker 1 (01:18:56):
yeah, that's crazy.
I had uh tommy in here and shemy posts with her got taken down
and what was the reason howsuspicious?
I mean, it wasn't even.
It was like a preview of theepisode and it said uh, it was
like controversial or it wascreating conflict and it wasn't

(01:19:19):
even anything bad.

Speaker 2 (01:19:21):
I'm like well, you have to remember, people are
threatened by presence when theyget the day off school.
So, yeah, probably what theywere feeling it's wild.

Speaker 1 (01:19:29):
Well, keep doing what you're doing and you guys.

Speaker 3 (01:19:32):
uh, very grateful, like I said, to be able to hang
out with you guys.
Super cool what you've beenable to do, both of you, so I'm
honored to be here.

Speaker 1 (01:19:42):
We appreciate it Everybody.
Riley Gaines hey, rap.