July 3, 2025 • 26 mins
Once you've achieved your fat loss goals, what comes next? The real challenge isn't losing weight—it's successfully transitioning out of your diet without regaining everything you worked so hard to lose. This episode completes our programming series by tackling the critical question: how do we build ourselves out of a diet?
Most people make the devastating mistake of celebrating their weight loss by returning to "normal" eating—exactly the patterns that created their original problem. It's no surprise that 90% of dieters regain every pound within five years, regardless of how they lost the weight.
We explore the science and strategy of reverse dieting—systematically rebuilding your metabolism through small, incremental calorie increases that allow your body to adapt while maintaining your leanness. This patient approach creates something remarkable: a higher "metabolic ceiling" that lets you eat substantially more food without gaining fat.
Through real-world examples, we demonstrate how gradual increases of just 50-100 calories weekly can transform your relationship with food. One coach shared his journey of increasing from 2,300 to 3,200 daily calories over six months while gaining only four pounds of primarily muscle. The result? Greater food freedom without sacrificing the lean physique he worked for.
We also address the training considerations during this rebuilding phase, the anabolic-catabolic balance, and most importantly, the mindset shift required for long-term success. As we explain, "any animal without structure reverts to instinct"—and for humans, that means defaulting to overconsumption without ongoing awareness.
Ready to escape diet purgatory and build a sustainable approach to nutrition that keeps you lean while enjoying more food? This episode provides the blueprint.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So how do we build out, how do we successfully
build ourselves out of a diet?
We've pulled off 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 pounds of fat.
Now what, what do we do?
We can't stay in fat losspurgatory forever, right, never.
Welcome to episode 63 ofCoach's Corner with your host,
(00:27):
justin Scallard, and Ethan Wolfe.
And today, folks, we're goingto finish up our series on
programming.
Part one was two episodes agoon just general overview on what
programming is and how one canbenefit from it.
We followed it up with part twoof specific fat loss
programming what mistakes toavoid.
So if you haven't seen that,you might want to go back and
give those a listen.
And then today we're going towrap it all up with part three,
(00:48):
which is going to be focused onokay, so we've accomplished our
fat loss goal.
We've pulled off 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 pounds of fat.
Now what, what do we do?
We can't stay in fat losspurgatory forever, right.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Never.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
So how do we build out, how do we successfully
build ourselves out of a diet?
A so we can start eating adecent amount of food again and
not just be in diet worldforever.
And b do it in a way thatdoesn't just put all the fat
we've spent so many monthslosing right back on.
And personally I can relate tothat like how many times have we
like gone through a fat lot orgone through like a bulk phase?
(01:20):
I'm gonna get bulky bros andthen four or five months later
you're like I'm just fat now.
Yeah, I'm gonna lean out andthen you just cut your calories
and lean out and then, once thedust settles, you literally
weigh the exact same as what youdid when you started your bulk.
You're just like that was 10months of my life yep what
(01:40):
happened?
Speaker 2 (01:40):
what was it for?
Speaker 1 (01:42):
yeah, so hopefully you can avoid those mistakes and
, uh, you know, met women.
I'm sure probably don'texperience it as much as guys do
, but I'm sure there's somewomen out there who can relate
as well yeah, I think you never.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
You never want to find yourself back restarted
after a large amount of effort.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
No, I think more often the case is people.
They lose a bunch of weight andthen, like they're like, all
right, mission accomplished andthey start, like quote unquote,
eating normal again and thenwithin six months they've gained
all the weight They've justspent the last six months losing
100%.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Well, I mean, the answer is you just go right back
to the patterns and habits thatyou had before you started
dieting.
Yeah, all better.
Yeah, job's done, job's done.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Go back to normal again.
Static situation, again staticsituation.
Goal accomplished yeah, walkaway.
Job well done.
Well, one thing you guys got tounderstand is that there's no
going back.
You're never going to go back.
That's it.
We know what that looks like,right, it looks like the
situation that got you into aplace where you needed to make a
change.
So if we don't, if we just youknow whatever reverting back to
(02:41):
like going normal again, well,guess where that's gonna land?
Yeah, guys like, come on backto like going normal again.
Well, guess where that's goingto land?
Guys Like come on Back to it.
Yeah, so okay.
So let's dig in here.
So let's talk about how onewould successfully build
themselves back out of fat loss,aka calorie deficit, to more of
like a maintenance and maybeeven beyond.
Maybe we want to continue thisjourney of building phase fat
loss phase, building phase, sothat's you know, maybe over the
(03:04):
course of a year or two.
We're talking like a realcomposition, which was the
thesis in our two episodes ago.
We were just talking aboutprogramming in general.
Absolutely, let's start withjust I'll just give you guys
like how I did it, and this isall under the context of we are
assuming that being lean is theobjective, because if you just
want to put on a bunch of sizeand muscle, just go right up to
(03:25):
maintenance for maybe a week andthen just jump straight to like
a 500 calorie surplus and thenjust go.
That might appeal to somepeople.
I've gone through phases wherethat was appealing, but I think
for the most part, people wantto keep their body fat levels
low while they build up out of….
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Well, especially if that's what you've done, the
time to do is get lean.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Yeah, most people.
Their objective is to lean out.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Yeah, that's almost always what the case is.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
We all want more lean mass, but the the benefits of
getting rid of the body fat isthere and it comes to a certain
point where, like, by being in acalorie deficit, you actually
create, you actually like,resensitize your body to be more
receptive to training andcalories.
When you do start to build outof a calorie deficit, your
body's way more efficient atutilizing calories and you know,
putting in the good work tobuild muscle and everything.
(04:10):
If we're always in a surplusand we kind of like, we just get
inefficient, you know, you'rejust not, you're not
assimilating the calories thesame rate that you would have
stuff to throw away.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Your body's like ah, we're getting plenty yeah
exactly right.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Okay, so let's just say we are at the depth of our
fat loss and we've accomplishedthe goal.
Okay, so now what?
So what do we do now?
I know how bad we all just wantto like build up and get out of
there and normal amounts offood, the right amount of food
for your body.
The mistake is just want tojump right back up and you're
going to see a lot of biginfluencers say, like I think
Jeff Nippert is a big fan ofjust going right up to
(04:43):
maintenance.
He's probably one of thebiggest influencers that exist
currently and you know he's asmart guy and I don't think what
he's saying is wrong.
I just know that, like this isall I do all day, every day, and
I've just seen it and myselfand with the thousands of
clients we've worked with overthe years like if you do that,
it's not going to be aseffective and you're going to
smooth out.
And when I say smooth out, thatmeans you're going to get a
(05:03):
little soft putting out somebody fluffy yeah, a little
fluffy.
A lot faster than if youreverse diet.
And now reverse dieting people.
It's controversial, it's a hottopic, I guess it is.
Yeah, people go they.
It is like they.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
I mean, it makes sense to me.
I don't think it's that, it's.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
It's pretty straightforward, I just think I
mean people just think it's awaste of time, right.
They just don't think that itmatters if you systematically
build your calories back up.
They just think why not just goright up to maintenance?
Because anything from a deficitto maintenance is still a
deficit anyway.
So why not just go straight tomaintenance?
What's the difference and I getthe logic Right, just telling
you from my experience that youjust stay leaner if you reverse
(05:42):
diet.
And so reverse dieting isessentially just building
yourself systematically byincreasing calories every week
or two in relatively smallamounts, while monitoring your
scale, weight and progressphotos along the way until you
get up to a maintenance and thenbeyond.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Yeah, I was going to say that's a big thing, and so
idea would be the more slowerthe incremental addition of
calories back from your deficit,the more your body can adjust
to the increase in caloriesadjust its metabolism and kind
of create a homeostasis aroundthat new calorie amount so that
there's not just like a suddeninflux of calories compared to
what it's used to, and thereforeyou kind of put on a little
(06:19):
body fat along with, you know,maybe some muscle or just in
your existence, and so it mightbe 50 calories a week.
That's pretty standard ortypical, I think you know.
Obviously, the lower you go,but this obviously implies
you're going to have to bemeasuring super detailed.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
I don't want to measure, I just want to like.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
We've already done it .
I just want to like you know,eat healthy, bro.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
I think it's even up to depends on the person how
much deficit you're in how bigof a person like if you're
adding calories, you're notseeing any weight, subsequent
weight gain, then you couldprobably make bigger jumps.
But it is so interesting to me,just in my just like, looking at
people's like and we're underthe assumption that people are
accurate and they're consistent.
If you're not accurate orconsistent, then that's for step
one or else nothing matters.
Yeah, but it's just sointeresting to me when I work
(07:03):
with people and they're a goodclient and I'm seeing them every
day measure their food out tothe gram hop on the scale every
morning for their dry weightafter they pee, before food and
water.
They're really concise andconsistent and how even just a
50 calorie increase in that sortof fertile ground can generate
(07:24):
a result.
It's really interesting.
You wouldn't think that itwould, but it does.
And I think it's universallyagreed that the slower we lose
weight, the less likely we areto lose muscle as we lose fat,
right.
So like we talked about lastweek, like if you lose, if you
put yourself in a thousandcalorie a day deficit, like
you'll lose weight but you'regoing to lose a lot of muscle
along with the fat.
(07:44):
And I think the opposite sideis true as well, where that's
the argument that I make aroundreverse dieting.
If the objective is to staylean, is that the slower we draw
out your rebuild up tomaintenance and beyond, the less
likely you are to lose or toput on body fat.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
So it's the same.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
It's equal opposite in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Yeah, it's in a certain sense.
You're just not introducinglarger currents to kind of move,
move the system as a whole somuch you know, and I think
what's interesting also aboutreverse dieting is I think that
while it's, you know, creates anuance and you got to be
nitpicky about it and be patientthat over time I think it has
the ability to really raise yourceiling metabolically.
It does and allow you toconsume way more calories in the
(08:26):
long term without putting onsubstantial amounts of body fat
100% agree with you.
And so in a certain sense, it'skind of like the hack that would
eventually give you way morefood freedom, turning you into
just let you have more lean masseven though you're not putting
on extra body fat, and thereforejust let you eat more.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Things eventually might come to a place where
you're like oh, I kind of havethe ability to generally eat
what I want without like puttingdown a pint of ice cream which
is going to be like 1200calories in a sitting, without
you know exceptions of crazyfood dumps yeah that you know
you could fundamentally haveyour cake and eat it too,
because you have some room for adessert it really is delayed
gratification and like you justhold it back, hold it back and
(09:03):
then you get to this place whereI joke with my clients and say
this is, it's a promised land,you've arrived.
But the journey, you know, it'sa rite of passage where for me,
for example, when I did it, Ithe depth of my fat loss phase,
I think I was eating like 2200calories, 2300 calories, which
for me is a very low I mean notlike dangerously low, but low.
You know, I was like veryhungry and then we built up.
(09:24):
I think at the end of it I wasat 32 or 3,300, but that was
over the course of likeliterally six months.
It was like I was working withmy own nutritionist at the time
and it was like every caloricincrease was only based off of
whether my scale weight haddropped or not.
So we would introduce a caloricincrease, so let's just say, 50
(09:45):
or 60 calories, which isoftentimes what it would be like
15 more grams of carbohydratesyeah, it's just so ridiculous 60
calories, I mean that's likeyou got to be within like a
three gram or less margin yeah,and listen, he made it clear to
me.
He's like we only get to havethis kind of fun because of how
consistent and accurate you are.
He's like most people were justtrying to get them to just like
make their own food.
He's, you know, and that's thespectrum that every nutritionist
(10:06):
has to deal with their clientsyes but anyway, so like.
But whatever, it was a lot.
It was an amazing experiencefor me.
So we would go like, let'sintroduce 60, 60 more calories
and then the next morning I'dhop on the scale.
Maybe there would be like aminor fluctuation in weight,
like a quarter pound up.
So we would just hold and theidea is he would see my
weigh-ins each morning and thenmaybe, on like day nine, we
would see a quarter pound drop.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
So not even like staying level.
It would have to go back down.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Yeah, it would be, and then we'd go another 60.
And then to your point whatit's doing is it's just raising
my metabolic ceiling, yep, right, or floor, yeah, because now
it's like allowing for thatadaptation as small as that,
okay, created more sort of likea thermogenic effect from
(10:51):
digestion, I guess or whatever,yeah, yeah.
And then we would raise it again.
And I'm not kidding you, dude.
Like after six months I'm at3,200 calories, which is a lot
of food.
It's a fair amount of food.
Yeah, I'm like, but I'm fourpounds heavier than what I was
when I my lowest.
I was like 180.
Then I got up to like 1844.
It's only four pounds, but Iwas just as lean as I was at 180
(11:14):
, and so over the course of likeliterally a half a year, it was
like three or four pounds ofaggregate weight, but it was
muscle yeah, it was just muscleyeah, and I'm eating 3200
calories a day with just as leanas I was eating 2300 calories a
day.
So it takes discipline.
It's not for everybody, butthat is one way to successfully
build.
That's like like the most, Ithink, detailed approach for
(11:34):
most folks.
I think, like you said, justintroducing if you just want 50
calories a day or a week, or ahundred calories a week and you
know, over the course of likefour to six weeks until you just
got up to maintenance, that'snot a bad idea either.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Yeah, I think it's just more realistic in a sense.
I mean, that's a very detailedapproach, that's working with
the coach, totally.
That's you being yeah,dictatorship, regimentedly
strict covid single what else?
Yeah, what else are you gonnahave?
Speaker 1 (11:59):
this chicken and broccoli for every meal.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
It was awesome yeah, but I think exactly that right,
because I think the reason thatit allows for the caloric
ceiling to rise is that as youapproach maintenance and you're
still training really hard, likelike you said now, there's this
ability for your body to kindof prioritize muscle gain and
lean mass, and so our lean massproduces the most caloric
(12:23):
requirements out of our wholesystem.
I mean, our brain does a lot,there's things, but
fundamentally, the more leanmass you have, the more your
metabolic rate goes up.
Yep, it's the main source ofheat, it's just doing all the
things have, the more yourmetabolic rate goes up.
Yep, it's the main source ofheat.
Just doing all the things, it'slike little engines.
And so you know, you hitmaintenance and you're training
really hard and you put on alittle muscle.
Now your metabolic rate goes upand you kind of match that
incrementally and you'rebasically your body's allowed to
smoke, like you said earlier,like at a slower pace.
(12:45):
But put on lean mass, which thenraises your metabolic demand,
which then allows you to matchthat yep, and you kind of just
do these very small incrementalstepping stones yeah, yeah and I
would assume you probably hadsome type of fat gain on there,
but probably I don't think youcan like, unless you're, unless
you're, on steroids.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
You really you're not gonna that.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
To clarify that right , you have catabolic and
anabolic states.
Catabolic is when you'regenerally in a deficit related
to cortisol.
It's when your body you canthink about it as like building
and breaking down.
So when you're catabolic,you're breaking down, whether
through stress or lack of sleepor lack of calories.
And then, when you're anabolic,you're building.
You're building, putting on fat, you're gaining lean muscle and
(13:24):
obviously you know theecosystem of our physiology and
biology is constant ebbs andflows you know, constantly
adapting to our environment yeah, it's.
Everything is is kind of, uh,always an in and out and in and
out, and so you know to say thatyou're constantly anabolic or
constantly catabolic I thinkthere's always a degree of both,
otherwise we'd wither away tonothing.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
You're never anabolic , even and there's benefits to
cycling between the two you know, it's like you're always
catabolic it's.
There's benefits to that, butthen.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
But then you also start to lose lean mass and you
know all that stuff, but thegeneral idea is that you can't
bulk or put on lean mass withoutgaining some type of fat.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Totally yeah, Because you're just in a state of being
anabolic which is just buildingand putting things on and
generally, it's associated witha caloric surplus, which is,
like you know, what most peopledo Like.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
People that want to get super giant will often go
crazy anabolic, eat a lot offood and then cut the fat off
afterwards, and that's kind ofthe bodybuilder way right.
It's like pre-competition getas big as you can and then slice
off, expecting to lose somemuscle but hoping that where you
end up, you'll have more musclethan when you started.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
And you just kind of different ways of playing the
game, and so I I think you knowthe idea is to just make that
state of being anabolic asefficient as possible and kind
of like there's always going tobe a ratio.
It's going to be a ratio.
We can manipulate the ratio 100via training and and and
nutrition yes, exactly, and sojust like losing fat.
You know like if we have highprotein resistance training, we
can manipulate the ratio of fatloss or so.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
You have muscle loss, lean mass in Lean mass in the
catabolic state, in thecatabolic state, and then the
other side of that is like weincrementally reverse diet.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
I believe that we just improve the ratio of lean,
of body fat accumulation duringan anabolic phase.
Exactly, and that's basically.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
I think that the overview of it, the bird's eye
view, and just the more detailedand the more attention you pay,
the more you can affect thatratio, which will eventually
lead to you by putting on somuch more lean mass and not
acquiring as much body fat, likejustin was saying, you get to
maintain your leanness and thenthat metabolic ceiling goes up
the more lean mass you have, andthen you kind of are one of
(15:26):
those people that like looksjacked, looks crispy, and then
gets to eat a lot of food andkind of like all of the things
are happening.
How much muscle and how are youso?
How are you so?
Speaker 1 (15:35):
lean.
Yeah, how are?
You just like eating all thetime so that just a slight
little hitching over the courseof time.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
I mean, it takes a long time, you know but once
you're there, I feel like youcan then kind of enter into like
a maintenance mode in, yeah,some type of a moderate surplus,
because obviously the more of asurplus in calories you go, the
more fat you're going to gain.
Again, that ratio starts tochange when you enter that
anabolic state.
But it's almost like reallyrazor thin, slicing your margins
(16:04):
to let your body adapt.
Put on as much lean mass as youcan and then enter into a state
of maintenance that allows forthe most surplus with the
minimal amount of fat gain whichwill lead to the most muscle
gain which will help keep yourmetabolic demand high totally,
and your body's efficiency, yeahefficiency and your performance
and so now you can work outharder in the gym.
(16:26):
You can do more volume, do moreworkouts eating a shit ton of
food eating a shit ton of foodand staying in a state of
leanness that is satisfactory.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
And then what's crazy is like eventually you hit like
an inflection point, like acritical mass.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
We're like like we said there's always a ratio.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
We just manipulate the ratio depending on our
nutrition and our trainingquality, but eventually we get
to the point where, evenfollowing that system, it's not
going to just go forever untilyou're 400 pounds and lean.
Eventually, you're going to hitthis diminishing return where
you're going to go, okay.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
I can't really eat too much more.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Yeah, and you've delayed that probably two or
three times longer than theaverage person could if they
just kept flip-flopping withthese like 500 or 600 calorie
deficits or surpluses.
But if you, because you juststretch that process out, you
got yourself up to that pointwhere you're really eating a lot
of food, but you know,eventually there is a ratio and
you're gonna see some body fataccumulation.
The beauty of that cycle,though, of that system, is that,
let's say, you get up.
Let's say, in my case, you know, I all right, so I was at 32,
(17:22):
3300 calories.
Put on five, six, seven poundsof just like a lot of muscle, a
little bit of fat.
Eventually we get to thattipping point where it's like,
okay, fat's kind there too.
You just like drop the floorout and drop back down to like
24, 2500 calories, and yourmetabolism is just firing on all
cylinders that your fat lossphases are like three weeks,
(17:44):
four weeks, right right.
Because you could just go boom,just drop down like 2500
calories, burn up a ton of bodyfat in a very short period of
time, and then start thatprocess all over again, and then
you just kind of just keeprepeating that cycle.
The thing is actually, younever have to go as low as you
the first time, so maybe thefirst time it took you down to
2300 in order to get theleanness you needed but, as you
(18:04):
kind of build up that cycleagain, maybe the second time
around.
It's just like 2700 26 which isnot bad for a fat loss phase,
and then you just kind of justkeep shortening this little
window that you need to operatein the window rises.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Yeah, exactly, the bookends kind of start to adjust
.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
So yeah.
So that's like, if you'refucking serious and you're
disciplined, do that.
Yeah, that is the way For mostpeople, though, and I would fall
into that bucket at this pointin my life.
I'm just not.
I just can't.
My life just doesn't allow forthat sort of level of
self-discipline like it used to.
But now listen, just hop on thescale every morning, increase
(18:43):
your calories every week.
If you notice that the scale iskind of going up quickly, just
chill for a week or two and justhold there and recommit to
accuracy, because usually it'susually it's like unintentional
underreporting.
So we're all right, we're doingtheir diet.
Now we're rebuilding out of it.
Yeah, no, I'm cool, I can havean extra beer or I can put a
little splash of oil in thislike right or like, yeah, I can,
(19:05):
I can use a little more mail inmy sandwich.
Yeah, you're not measuring likeyou used to in the fat loss
phase, and so that unintentionalunderreporting can creep in an
extra 100 or two calories a daythat are not accounted for.
And you're like, oh, I'm tryingto stay lean, but I've noticed
I'm kind of like gaining weightquickly, even though I'm only
eating 10% more than I was.
Well, really probably eatingmore, like 15 or 20, because
(19:25):
you're not as accurate as youwere in your fat loss phase, and
so that's gonna be most peopleand that's totally fine.
So in that case it's just amatter of being accurate,
weighing yourself every morningyour dry weight, like we said
earlier, and then, if you do seethe scale kind of climbing
quickly, just chill on thecalorie build up for a week or
two and then just kind of goback and reinvestigate your days
.
Am I?
Am I getting a little sloppy onmy tracking here?
(19:47):
And that's going to be muchmore of a realistic path for
most folks.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
So there's yeah I think what you know to what just
was saying earlier, it's likeyou can never go back.
You know, like our bodies areconstantly adapting organism.
We are constantly going to be areflection of our patterns,
including our composition andour health.
And even if you are an athletedoesn't mean you couldn't be
completely immobile and weakwhen you're 45 right, like just
(20:10):
because you've attained acertain state at one point in
your career of health, fitnessand body fat, and all that
doesn't mean that it can'tchange.
And so we constantly have todance and participate with it,
no matter what, or at least justget a handle on it in some
capacity where we know whatwe're doing enough to to dance
and participate with it.
We cannot pay attention, and so, even if you were to, to what
like nippard was saying, likejust jump to your maintenance.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
And his audience is like young male bodybuilders,
yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
But even if that's like just the simplest route,
where you're not going to sitthere and incrementally change
and you know, do the math to addin 10 grams of carbs here and
this and you just kind of do alump sum, even that still
implies that you're going to bemeasuring your food in some
capacity.
Yeah, hitting your numbers,understanding what those numbers
are and still participating inthe same way you did Just with a
(20:58):
higher food allotment.
But I think the big takeaway isthat just because the diet phase
is over, you know, obviouslythe more detailed, the more you
can maintain all the hard workyou've just done.
But I think it is true that youjust see people get off of some
type of a weight loss situation.
And they just go nuts, just,they just don't, they, don't
they, they completely stop right, it's, it's, it truly is a diet
, versus like maybe a diet phaseor a weight loss phase or a
(21:20):
calorie restriction phase it'slike this, this isolated thing
that creates results, hopefully,and then they're like oh, I
have succeeded and so now I canreturn to my previous behavior
of not paying attention at all.
and, as we said, if that's whatgot you to the place that you
didn't want to be in the firstplace, you know where it's going
to end up you know it's goingto end up and it's this
mentality of like the lightswitch is on, the light switch
is off.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Yes, it's that kind of like all or nothing thinking
and statistically, that's why,statistically, 9 out of 10
people regain every single poundthat they've lost within five
years of of their diet or theirweight loss procedure of some
kind, like most people,including people who have had
been on an ozempic, includingpeople who have had gastric
bypass or even just died of theold-fashioned way.
(22:03):
The reality is, is that themindset that it takes to
maintain it is the mostimportant thing, because it's
like this okay, job is done,time to go back to normal.
Now it's like, oh, no, no, no,no, no, no.
This there's no normal.
There is no, there isn't.
This is your normal.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Now, there's no going back yeah, I mean, it's crazy,
even for a surgery like gastricbypass.
You know where they're turningtheir stomach into the size of
an egg and people figure it outyou can't eat more than three
bites you might.
You might be lean or you mightbe less weight than when you
started, like you might havelost 100 pounds through the
gastric bypass, but then you'llgain 30 of it back.
And then you're stuck and youknow, like, yeah, like those 70,
if you're morbidly obese andyou have 350 pounds to lose and
(22:40):
you lose 100 through gastricbypass and you gain 30 back.
Like, yeah, those 70.
Net loss is still good, better,but you just did like a majorly
invasive surgery which youcan't return from, where your
stomach is literally the size oflike two inches, and even that
couldn't get you to a place allthe way Right.
Like, even with something asdrastic as that, you still have
to participate and pay attention.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
I mean, I'm telling you, I've, I've seen it.
Like I've had people come onboard that were like they've had
the surgery, they've lost ahundred pounds and gained a
hundred pounds twice.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
Yeah, that's crazy, it's intense, just goes to show
you yeah, and then what wouldyou say about training like what
you know?
Would you change your training?
Speaker 1 (23:16):
I mean, we've been resistance training this whole
time yeah, I think training ismuch more of a constant.
I think of training as likeprotein.
It's like you kind of justthat's the anchor.
Yeah, so, whether you're in afat loss phase, like you don't
need to just like all of asudden start going to like
cardio boot camps just becauseyou're in a fat loss phase, like
no, do your training, like whatdo you like to do?
And if you're listening to thisshow, you're probably like us
and you like to lift weights andmaybe you know like you don't
(23:38):
have to like ramp it up justbecause you're in a fat loss
phase.
And when you're building out ofa fat loss phase, you just keep
the training the same.
The progressive overload isrelative to your strength levels
.
And when you're in, when you'recutting calories in a fat loss
phase, you know you might onlybe putting on, maybe doing like
maybe at the end of a six-weekcycle you only added five or ten
pounds with a whole six weeksand you might have only added a
couple of reps to your lifts,because you're just in a fat lot
(24:00):
, you're in a calorie deficit,you're just your body's just not
as strong can't perform.
but then you hit you.
Then you circle back to anothersix-week progressive overload.
This time it's over the courseof a rebuild phase, and from the
beginning to the end of ityou've increased your calories
by four or 500 and you've added20 pounds to your lifts and
you've added two or three repsto every set, and so I think
(24:21):
that that's always the anchor,and then you manipulate your
carbs and fats depending on thegoal, the objective.
But one thing that I wannaleave everybody with is that
when I got my dog eight yearsago, I put him in training
because he was gettingaggressive.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
I got my dog eight years ago.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Yeah, old red, old red, and I brought him to a
trainer, and anybody who hasdogs, who's had a dog trainer,
knows that the first thing thetrainer says to you is that I'm
not here to train the dog, I'mhere to train you.
That's right, because it's theowners that fuck it all up.
But this is the owners thatfuck it all up.
(24:58):
But you know, one thing he saidto me is like kind of getting
back to like there's no goingback is that the job is never
done.
Like just because we've got himto behave himself right now
doesn't mean that like, okay,wipe your hands, clean the job's
done.
He's fixed it's like no thatthose aggression tendencies are
still there.
They're not ever going to notbe there.
We just got to manage themindefinitely.
And we manage them by seeingaround corners, giving other
dogs a wide berth, kind of likebeing more aware and observant,
(25:21):
and we can extrapolate thatright down to our lives too.
The job is never done justbecause you've managed to
control your aggressive behaviortowards food for a couple of
months.
It doesn't mean that if you stoppaying attention that you're
fixed forever still a littlenippy, that little gremlin still
in there, and, uh, he said tome you know, one thing that I'll
never forget is any animal dogs, humans, whatever any animal
(25:46):
without structure reverts theirinstincts.
Right, and what are?
What are our instincts tellingus?
Eat, eat, sleep, sleepsomeplace warm so if we don't
have an alarm, we don't payattention to our food.
Guess what we're?
Just we're.
We're sinking down to thelowest common denominator of
humankind and so reptilianbrainstem yeah so yeah, exactly
all the way down that reptilianbrainstem of ours.
(26:07):
So just keep that in mind.
Like the job is never done,it's always effort.
You have to pay attention.
I'm years and years into thisand I will still overestimate or
underestimate how many caloriesI've eaten.
Still, if I don't track my food, I'll be like, oh shit, I'm 400
over.
Well, there is my deficit forthe day.
So now I'm going to surplusshit and I'm a coach and I still
do that shit.
So if I'm doing it, I know youare, he knows.
So how do we build out, how do we successfully
build ourselves out of a diet?
We've pulled off 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 pounds of fat.
Now what, what do we do?
We can't stay in fat losspurgatory forever, right, never.
Welcome to episode 63 ofCoach's Corner with your host,
(00:27):
justin Scallard, and Ethan Wolfe.
And today, folks, we're goingto finish up our series on
programming.
Part one was two episodes agoon just general overview on what
programming is and how one canbenefit from it.
We followed it up with part twoof specific fat loss
programming what mistakes toavoid.
So if you haven't seen that,you might want to go back and
give those a listen.
And then today we're going towrap it all up with part three,
(00:48):
which is going to be focused onokay, so we've accomplished our
fat loss goal.
We've pulled off 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 pounds of fat.
Now what, what do we do?
We can't stay in fat losspurgatory forever, right.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Never.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
So how do we build out, how do we successfully
build ourselves out of a diet?
A so we can start eating adecent amount of food again and
not just be in diet worldforever.
And b do it in a way thatdoesn't just put all the fat
we've spent so many monthslosing right back on.
And personally I can relate tothat like how many times have we
like gone through a fat lot orgone through like a bulk phase?
(01:20):
I'm gonna get bulky bros andthen four or five months later
you're like I'm just fat now.
Yeah, I'm gonna lean out andthen you just cut your calories
and lean out and then, once thedust settles, you literally
weigh the exact same as what youdid when you started your bulk.
You're just like that was 10months of my life yep what
(01:40):
happened?
Speaker 2 (01:40):
what was it for?
Speaker 1 (01:42):
yeah, so hopefully you can avoid those mistakes and
, uh, you know, met women.
I'm sure probably don'texperience it as much as guys do
, but I'm sure there's somewomen out there who can relate
as well yeah, I think you never.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
You never want to find yourself back restarted
after a large amount of effort.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
No, I think more often the case is people.
They lose a bunch of weight andthen, like they're like, all
right, mission accomplished andthey start, like quote unquote,
eating normal again and thenwithin six months they've gained
all the weight They've justspent the last six months losing
100%.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Well, I mean, the answer is you just go right back
to the patterns and habits thatyou had before you started
dieting.
Yeah, all better.
Yeah, job's done, job's done.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Go back to normal again.
Static situation, again staticsituation.
Goal accomplished yeah, walkaway.
Job well done.
Well, one thing you guys got tounderstand is that there's no
going back.
You're never going to go back.
That's it.
We know what that looks like,right, it looks like the
situation that got you into aplace where you needed to make a
change.
So if we don't, if we just youknow whatever reverting back to
(02:41):
like going normal again, well,guess where that's gonna land?
Yeah, guys like, come on backto like going normal again.
Well, guess where that's goingto land?
Guys Like come on Back to it.
Yeah, so okay.
So let's dig in here.
So let's talk about how onewould successfully build
themselves back out of fat loss,aka calorie deficit, to more of
like a maintenance and maybeeven beyond.
Maybe we want to continue thisjourney of building phase fat
loss phase, building phase, sothat's you know, maybe over the
(03:04):
course of a year or two.
We're talking like a realcomposition, which was the
thesis in our two episodes ago.
We were just talking aboutprogramming in general.
Absolutely, let's start withjust I'll just give you guys
like how I did it, and this isall under the context of we are
assuming that being lean is theobjective, because if you just
want to put on a bunch of sizeand muscle, just go right up to
(03:25):
maintenance for maybe a week andthen just jump straight to like
a 500 calorie surplus and thenjust go.
That might appeal to somepeople.
I've gone through phases wherethat was appealing, but I think
for the most part, people wantto keep their body fat levels
low while they build up out of….
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Well, especially if that's what you've done, the
time to do is get lean.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Yeah, most people.
Their objective is to lean out.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Yeah, that's almost always what the case is.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
We all want more lean mass, but the the benefits of
getting rid of the body fat isthere and it comes to a certain
point where, like, by being in acalorie deficit, you actually
create, you actually like,resensitize your body to be more
receptive to training andcalories.
When you do start to build outof a calorie deficit, your
body's way more efficient atutilizing calories and you know,
putting in the good work tobuild muscle and everything.
(04:10):
If we're always in a surplusand we kind of like, we just get
inefficient, you know, you'rejust not, you're not
assimilating the calories thesame rate that you would have
stuff to throw away.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Your body's like ah, we're getting plenty yeah
exactly right.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Okay, so let's just say we are at the depth of our
fat loss and we've accomplishedthe goal.
Okay, so now what?
So what do we do now?
I know how bad we all just wantto like build up and get out of
there and normal amounts offood, the right amount of food
for your body.
The mistake is just want tojump right back up and you're
going to see a lot of biginfluencers say, like I think
Jeff Nippert is a big fan ofjust going right up to
(04:43):
maintenance.
He's probably one of thebiggest influencers that exist
currently and you know he's asmart guy and I don't think what
he's saying is wrong.
I just know that, like this isall I do all day, every day, and
I've just seen it and myselfand with the thousands of
clients we've worked with overthe years like if you do that,
it's not going to be aseffective and you're going to
smooth out.
And when I say smooth out, thatmeans you're going to get a
(05:03):
little soft putting out somebody fluffy yeah, a little
fluffy.
A lot faster than if youreverse diet.
And now reverse dieting people.
It's controversial, it's a hottopic, I guess it is.
Yeah, people go they.
It is like they.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
I mean, it makes sense to me.
I don't think it's that, it's.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
It's pretty straightforward, I just think I
mean people just think it's awaste of time, right.
They just don't think that itmatters if you systematically
build your calories back up.
They just think why not just goright up to maintenance?
Because anything from a deficitto maintenance is still a
deficit anyway.
So why not just go straight tomaintenance?
What's the difference and I getthe logic Right, just telling
you from my experience that youjust stay leaner if you reverse
(05:42):
diet.
And so reverse dieting isessentially just building
yourself systematically byincreasing calories every week
or two in relatively smallamounts, while monitoring your
scale, weight and progressphotos along the way until you
get up to a maintenance and thenbeyond.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Yeah, I was going to say that's a big thing, and so
idea would be the more slowerthe incremental addition of
calories back from your deficit,the more your body can adjust
to the increase in caloriesadjust its metabolism and kind
of create a homeostasis aroundthat new calorie amount so that
there's not just like a suddeninflux of calories compared to
what it's used to, and thereforeyou kind of put on a little
(06:19):
body fat along with, you know,maybe some muscle or just in
your existence, and so it mightbe 50 calories a week.
That's pretty standard ortypical, I think you know.
Obviously, the lower you go,but this obviously implies
you're going to have to bemeasuring super detailed.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
I don't want to measure, I just want to like.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
We've already done it .
I just want to like you know,eat healthy, bro.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
I think it's even up to depends on the person how
much deficit you're in how bigof a person like if you're
adding calories, you're notseeing any weight, subsequent
weight gain, then you couldprobably make bigger jumps.
But it is so interesting to me,just in my just like, looking at
people's like and we're underthe assumption that people are
accurate and they're consistent.
If you're not accurate orconsistent, then that's for step
one or else nothing matters.
Yeah, but it's just sointeresting to me when I work
(07:03):
with people and they're a goodclient and I'm seeing them every
day measure their food out tothe gram hop on the scale every
morning for their dry weightafter they pee, before food and
water.
They're really concise andconsistent and how even just a
50 calorie increase in that sortof fertile ground can generate
(07:24):
a result.
It's really interesting.
You wouldn't think that itwould, but it does.
And I think it's universallyagreed that the slower we lose
weight, the less likely we areto lose muscle as we lose fat,
right.
So like we talked about lastweek, like if you lose, if you
put yourself in a thousandcalorie a day deficit, like
you'll lose weight but you'regoing to lose a lot of muscle
along with the fat.
(07:44):
And I think the opposite sideis true as well, where that's
the argument that I make aroundreverse dieting.
If the objective is to staylean, is that the slower we draw
out your rebuild up tomaintenance and beyond, the less
likely you are to lose or toput on body fat.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
So it's the same.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
It's equal opposite in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Yeah, it's in a certain sense.
You're just not introducinglarger currents to kind of move,
move the system as a whole somuch you know, and I think
what's interesting also aboutreverse dieting is I think that
while it's, you know, creates anuance and you got to be
nitpicky about it and be patientthat over time I think it has
the ability to really raise yourceiling metabolically.
It does and allow you toconsume way more calories in the
(08:26):
long term without putting onsubstantial amounts of body fat
100% agree with you.
And so in a certain sense, it'skind of like the hack that would
eventually give you way morefood freedom, turning you into
just let you have more lean masseven though you're not putting
on extra body fat, and thereforejust let you eat more.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
Things eventually might come to a place where
you're like oh, I kind of havethe ability to generally eat
what I want without like puttingdown a pint of ice cream which
is going to be like 1200calories in a sitting, without
you know exceptions of crazyfood dumps yeah that you know
you could fundamentally haveyour cake and eat it too,
because you have some room for adessert it really is delayed
gratification and like you justhold it back, hold it back and
(09:03):
then you get to this place whereI joke with my clients and say
this is, it's a promised land,you've arrived.
But the journey, you know, it'sa rite of passage where for me,
for example, when I did it, Ithe depth of my fat loss phase,
I think I was eating like 2200calories, 2300 calories, which
for me is a very low I mean notlike dangerously low, but low.
You know, I was like veryhungry and then we built up.
(09:24):
I think at the end of it I wasat 32 or 3,300, but that was
over the course of likeliterally six months.
It was like I was working withmy own nutritionist at the time
and it was like every caloricincrease was only based off of
whether my scale weight haddropped or not.
So we would introduce a caloricincrease, so let's just say, 50
(09:45):
or 60 calories, which isoftentimes what it would be like
15 more grams of carbohydratesyeah, it's just so ridiculous 60
calories, I mean that's likeyou got to be within like a
three gram or less margin yeah,and listen, he made it clear to
me.
He's like we only get to havethis kind of fun because of how
consistent and accurate you are.
He's like most people were justtrying to get them to just like
make their own food.
He's, you know, and that's thespectrum that every nutritionist
(10:06):
has to deal with their clientsyes but anyway, so like.
But whatever, it was a lot.
It was an amazing experiencefor me.
So we would go like, let'sintroduce 60, 60 more calories
and then the next morning I'dhop on the scale.
Maybe there would be like aminor fluctuation in weight,
like a quarter pound up.
So we would just hold and theidea is he would see my
weigh-ins each morning and thenmaybe, on like day nine, we
would see a quarter pound drop.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
So not even like staying level.
It would have to go back down.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Yeah, it would be, and then we'd go another 60.
And then to your point whatit's doing is it's just raising
my metabolic ceiling, yep, right, or floor, yeah, because now
it's like allowing for thatadaptation as small as that,
okay, created more sort of likea thermogenic effect from
(10:51):
digestion, I guess or whatever,yeah, yeah.
And then we would raise it again.
And I'm not kidding you, dude.
Like after six months I'm at3,200 calories, which is a lot
of food.
It's a fair amount of food.
Yeah, I'm like, but I'm fourpounds heavier than what I was
when I my lowest.
I was like 180.
Then I got up to like 1844.
It's only four pounds, but Iwas just as lean as I was at 180
(11:14):
, and so over the course of likeliterally a half a year, it was
like three or four pounds ofaggregate weight, but it was
muscle yeah, it was just muscleyeah, and I'm eating 3200
calories a day with just as leanas I was eating 2300 calories a
day.
So it takes discipline.
It's not for everybody, butthat is one way to successfully
build.
That's like like the most, Ithink, detailed approach for
(11:34):
most folks.
I think, like you said, justintroducing if you just want 50
calories a day or a week, or ahundred calories a week and you
know, over the course of likefour to six weeks until you just
got up to maintenance, that'snot a bad idea either.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Yeah, I think it's just more realistic in a sense.
I mean, that's a very detailedapproach, that's working with
the coach, totally.
That's you being yeah,dictatorship, regimentedly
strict covid single what else?
Yeah, what else are you gonnahave?
Speaker 1 (11:59):
this chicken and broccoli for every meal.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
It was awesome yeah, but I think exactly that right,
because I think the reason thatit allows for the caloric
ceiling to rise is that as youapproach maintenance and you're
still training really hard, likelike you said now, there's this
ability for your body to kindof prioritize muscle gain and
lean mass, and so our lean massproduces the most caloric
(12:23):
requirements out of our wholesystem.
I mean, our brain does a lot,there's things, but
fundamentally, the more leanmass you have, the more your
metabolic rate goes up.
Yep, it's the main source ofheat, it's just doing all the
things have, the more yourmetabolic rate goes up.
Yep, it's the main source ofheat.
Just doing all the things, it'slike little engines.
And so you know, you hitmaintenance and you're training
really hard and you put on alittle muscle.
Now your metabolic rate goes upand you kind of match that
incrementally and you'rebasically your body's allowed to
smoke, like you said earlier,like at a slower pace.
(12:45):
But put on lean mass, which thenraises your metabolic demand,
which then allows you to matchthat yep, and you kind of just
do these very small incrementalstepping stones yeah, yeah and I
would assume you probably hadsome type of fat gain on there,
but probably I don't think youcan like, unless you're, unless
you're, on steroids.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
You really you're not gonna that.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
To clarify that right , you have catabolic and
anabolic states.
Catabolic is when you'regenerally in a deficit related
to cortisol.
It's when your body you canthink about it as like building
and breaking down.
So when you're catabolic,you're breaking down, whether
through stress or lack of sleepor lack of calories.
And then, when you're anabolic,you're building.
You're building, putting on fat, you're gaining lean muscle and
(13:24):
obviously you know theecosystem of our physiology and
biology is constant ebbs andflows you know, constantly
adapting to our environment yeah, it's.
Everything is is kind of, uh,always an in and out and in and
out, and so you know to say thatyou're constantly anabolic or
constantly catabolic I thinkthere's always a degree of both,
otherwise we'd wither away tonothing.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
You're never anabolic , even and there's benefits to
cycling between the two you know, it's like you're always
catabolic it's.
There's benefits to that, butthen.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
But then you also start to lose lean mass and you
know all that stuff, but thegeneral idea is that you can't
bulk or put on lean mass withoutgaining some type of fat.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Totally yeah, Because you're just in a state of being
anabolic which is just buildingand putting things on and
generally, it's associated witha caloric surplus, which is,
like you know, what most peopledo Like.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
People that want to get super giant will often go
crazy anabolic, eat a lot offood and then cut the fat off
afterwards, and that's kind ofthe bodybuilder way right.
It's like pre-competition getas big as you can and then slice
off, expecting to lose somemuscle but hoping that where you
end up, you'll have more musclethan when you started.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
And you just kind of different ways of playing the
game, and so I I think you knowthe idea is to just make that
state of being anabolic asefficient as possible and kind
of like there's always going tobe a ratio.
It's going to be a ratio.
We can manipulate the ratio 100via training and and and
nutrition yes, exactly, and sojust like losing fat.
You know like if we have highprotein resistance training, we
can manipulate the ratio of fatloss or so.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
You have muscle loss, lean mass in Lean mass in the
catabolic state, in thecatabolic state, and then the
other side of that is like weincrementally reverse diet.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
I believe that we just improve the ratio of lean,
of body fat accumulation duringan anabolic phase.
Exactly, and that's basically.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
I think that the overview of it, the bird's eye
view, and just the more detailedand the more attention you pay,
the more you can affect thatratio, which will eventually
lead to you by putting on somuch more lean mass and not
acquiring as much body fat, likejustin was saying, you get to
maintain your leanness and thenthat metabolic ceiling goes up
the more lean mass you have, andthen you kind of are one of
(15:26):
those people that like looksjacked, looks crispy, and then
gets to eat a lot of food andkind of like all of the things
are happening.
How much muscle and how are youso?
How are you so?
Speaker 1 (15:35):
lean.
Yeah, how are?
You just like eating all thetime so that just a slight
little hitching over the courseof time.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
I mean, it takes a long time, you know but once
you're there, I feel like youcan then kind of enter into like
a maintenance mode in, yeah,some type of a moderate surplus,
because obviously the more of asurplus in calories you go, the
more fat you're going to gain.
Again, that ratio starts tochange when you enter that
anabolic state.
But it's almost like reallyrazor thin, slicing your margins
(16:04):
to let your body adapt.
Put on as much lean mass as youcan and then enter into a state
of maintenance that allows forthe most surplus with the
minimal amount of fat gain whichwill lead to the most muscle
gain which will help keep yourmetabolic demand high totally,
and your body's efficiency, yeahefficiency and your performance
and so now you can work outharder in the gym.
(16:26):
You can do more volume, do moreworkouts eating a shit ton of
food eating a shit ton of foodand staying in a state of
leanness that is satisfactory.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
And then what's crazy is like eventually you hit like
an inflection point, like acritical mass.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
We're like like we said there's always a ratio.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
We just manipulate the ratio depending on our
nutrition and our trainingquality, but eventually we get
to the point where, evenfollowing that system, it's not
going to just go forever untilyou're 400 pounds and lean.
Eventually, you're going to hitthis diminishing return where
you're going to go, okay.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
I can't really eat too much more.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Yeah, and you've delayed that probably two or
three times longer than theaverage person could if they
just kept flip-flopping withthese like 500 or 600 calorie
deficits or surpluses.
But if you, because you juststretch that process out, you
got yourself up to that pointwhere you're really eating a lot
of food, but you know,eventually there is a ratio and
you're gonna see some body fataccumulation.
The beauty of that cycle,though, of that system, is that,
let's say, you get up.
Let's say, in my case, you know, I all right, so I was at 32,
(17:22):
3300 calories.
Put on five, six, seven poundsof just like a lot of muscle, a
little bit of fat.
Eventually we get to thattipping point where it's like,
okay, fat's kind there too.
You just like drop the floorout and drop back down to like
24, 2500 calories, and yourmetabolism is just firing on all
cylinders that your fat lossphases are like three weeks,
(17:44):
four weeks, right right.
Because you could just go boom,just drop down like 2500
calories, burn up a ton of bodyfat in a very short period of
time, and then start thatprocess all over again, and then
you just kind of just keeprepeating that cycle.
The thing is actually, younever have to go as low as you
the first time, so maybe thefirst time it took you down to
2300 in order to get theleanness you needed but, as you
(18:04):
kind of build up that cycleagain, maybe the second time
around.
It's just like 2700 26 which isnot bad for a fat loss phase,
and then you just kind of justkeep shortening this little
window that you need to operatein the window rises.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Yeah, exactly, the bookends kind of start to adjust
.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
So yeah.
So that's like, if you'refucking serious and you're
disciplined, do that.
Yeah, that is the way For mostpeople, though, and I would fall
into that bucket at this pointin my life.
I'm just not.
I just can't.
My life just doesn't allow forthat sort of level of
self-discipline like it used to.
But now listen, just hop on thescale every morning, increase
(18:43):
your calories every week.
If you notice that the scale iskind of going up quickly, just
chill for a week or two and justhold there and recommit to
accuracy, because usually it'susually it's like unintentional
underreporting.
So we're all right, we're doingtheir diet.
Now we're rebuilding out of it.
Yeah, no, I'm cool, I can havean extra beer or I can put a
little splash of oil in thislike right or like, yeah, I can,
(19:05):
I can use a little more mail inmy sandwich.
Yeah, you're not measuring likeyou used to in the fat loss
phase, and so that unintentionalunderreporting can creep in an
extra 100 or two calories a daythat are not accounted for.
And you're like, oh, I'm tryingto stay lean, but I've noticed
I'm kind of like gaining weightquickly, even though I'm only
eating 10% more than I was.
Well, really probably eatingmore, like 15 or 20, because
(19:25):
you're not as accurate as youwere in your fat loss phase, and
so that's gonna be most peopleand that's totally fine.
So in that case it's just amatter of being accurate,
weighing yourself every morningyour dry weight, like we said
earlier, and then, if you do seethe scale kind of climbing
quickly, just chill on thecalorie build up for a week or
two and then just kind of goback and reinvestigate your days
.
Am I?
Am I getting a little sloppy onmy tracking here?
(19:47):
And that's going to be muchmore of a realistic path for
most folks.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
So there's yeah I think what you know to what just
was saying earlier, it's likeyou can never go back.
You know, like our bodies areconstantly adapting organism.
We are constantly going to be areflection of our patterns,
including our composition andour health.
And even if you are an athletedoesn't mean you couldn't be
completely immobile and weakwhen you're 45 right, like just
(20:10):
because you've attained acertain state at one point in
your career of health, fitnessand body fat, and all that
doesn't mean that it can'tchange.
And so we constantly have todance and participate with it,
no matter what, or at least justget a handle on it in some
capacity where we know whatwe're doing enough to to dance
and participate with it.
We cannot pay attention, and so, even if you were to, to what
like nippard was saying, likejust jump to your maintenance.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
And his audience is like young male bodybuilders,
yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
But even if that's like just the simplest route,
where you're not going to sitthere and incrementally change
and you know, do the math to addin 10 grams of carbs here and
this and you just kind of do alump sum, even that still
implies that you're going to bemeasuring your food in some
capacity.
Yeah, hitting your numbers,understanding what those numbers
are and still participating inthe same way you did Just with a
(20:58):
higher food allotment.
But I think the big takeaway isthat just because the diet phase
is over, you know, obviouslythe more detailed, the more you
can maintain all the hard workyou've just done.
But I think it is true that youjust see people get off of some
type of a weight loss situation.
And they just go nuts, just,they just don't, they, don't
they, they completely stop right, it's, it's, it truly is a diet
, versus like maybe a diet phaseor a weight loss phase or a
(21:20):
calorie restriction phase it'slike this, this isolated thing
that creates results, hopefully,and then they're like oh, I
have succeeded and so now I canreturn to my previous behavior
of not paying attention at all.
and, as we said, if that's whatgot you to the place that you
didn't want to be in the firstplace, you know where it's going
to end up you know it's goingto end up and it's this
mentality of like the lightswitch is on, the light switch
is off.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
Yes, it's that kind of like all or nothing thinking
and statistically, that's why,statistically, 9 out of 10
people regain every single poundthat they've lost within five
years of of their diet or theirweight loss procedure of some
kind, like most people,including people who have had
been on an ozempic, includingpeople who have had gastric
bypass or even just died of theold-fashioned way.
(22:03):
The reality is, is that themindset that it takes to
maintain it is the mostimportant thing, because it's
like this okay, job is done,time to go back to normal.
Now it's like, oh, no, no, no,no, no, no.
This there's no normal.
There is no, there isn't.
This is your normal.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Now, there's no going back yeah, I mean, it's crazy,
even for a surgery like gastricbypass.
You know where they're turningtheir stomach into the size of
an egg and people figure it outyou can't eat more than three
bites you might.
You might be lean or you mightbe less weight than when you
started, like you might havelost 100 pounds through the
gastric bypass, but then you'llgain 30 of it back.
And then you're stuck and youknow, like, yeah, like those 70,
if you're morbidly obese andyou have 350 pounds to lose and
(22:40):
you lose 100 through gastricbypass and you gain 30 back.
Like, yeah, those 70.
Net loss is still good, better,but you just did like a majorly
invasive surgery which youcan't return from, where your
stomach is literally the size oflike two inches, and even that
couldn't get you to a place allthe way Right.
Like, even with something asdrastic as that, you still have
to participate and pay attention.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
I mean, I'm telling you, I've, I've seen it.
Like I've had people come onboard that were like they've had
the surgery, they've lost ahundred pounds and gained a
hundred pounds twice.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
Yeah, that's crazy, it's intense, just goes to show
you yeah, and then what wouldyou say about training like what
you know?
Would you change your training?
Speaker 1 (23:16):
I mean, we've been resistance training this whole
time yeah, I think training ismuch more of a constant.
I think of training as likeprotein.
It's like you kind of justthat's the anchor.
Yeah, so, whether you're in afat loss phase, like you don't
need to just like all of asudden start going to like
cardio boot camps just becauseyou're in a fat loss phase, like
no, do your training, like whatdo you like to do?
And if you're listening to thisshow, you're probably like us
and you like to lift weights andmaybe you know like you don't
(23:38):
have to like ramp it up justbecause you're in a fat loss
phase.
And when you're building out ofa fat loss phase, you just keep
the training the same.
The progressive overload isrelative to your strength levels
.
And when you're in, when you'recutting calories in a fat loss
phase, you know you might onlybe putting on, maybe doing like
maybe at the end of a six-weekcycle you only added five or ten
pounds with a whole six weeksand you might have only added a
couple of reps to your lifts,because you're just in a fat lot
(24:00):
, you're in a calorie deficit,you're just your body's just not
as strong can't perform.
but then you hit you.
Then you circle back to anothersix-week progressive overload.
This time it's over the courseof a rebuild phase, and from the
beginning to the end of ityou've increased your calories
by four or 500 and you've added20 pounds to your lifts and
you've added two or three repsto every set, and so I think
(24:21):
that that's always the anchor,and then you manipulate your
carbs and fats depending on thegoal, the objective.
But one thing that I wannaleave everybody with is that
when I got my dog eight yearsago, I put him in training
because he was gettingaggressive.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
I got my dog eight years ago.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Yeah, old red, old red, and I brought him to a
trainer, and anybody who hasdogs, who's had a dog trainer,
knows that the first thing thetrainer says to you is that I'm
not here to train the dog, I'mhere to train you.
That's right, because it's theowners that fuck it all up.
But this is the owners thatfuck it all up.
(24:58):
But you know, one thing he saidto me is like kind of getting
back to like there's no goingback is that the job is never
done.
Like just because we've got himto behave himself right now
doesn't mean that like, okay,wipe your hands, clean the job's
done.
He's fixed it's like no thatthose aggression tendencies are
still there.
They're not ever going to notbe there.
We just got to manage themindefinitely.
And we manage them by seeingaround corners, giving other
dogs a wide berth, kind of likebeing more aware and observant,
(25:21):
and we can extrapolate thatright down to our lives too.
The job is never done justbecause you've managed to
control your aggressive behaviortowards food for a couple of
months.
It doesn't mean that if you stoppaying attention that you're
fixed forever still a littlenippy, that little gremlin still
in there, and, uh, he said tome you know, one thing that I'll
never forget is any animal dogs, humans, whatever any animal
(25:46):
without structure reverts theirinstincts.
Right, and what are?
What are our instincts tellingus?
Eat, eat, sleep, sleepsomeplace warm so if we don't
have an alarm, we don't payattention to our food.
Guess what we're?
Just we're.
We're sinking down to thelowest common denominator of
humankind and so reptilianbrainstem yeah so yeah, exactly
all the way down that reptilianbrainstem of ours.
(26:07):
So just keep that in mind.
Like the job is never done,it's always effort.
You have to pay attention.
I'm years and years into thisand I will still overestimate or
underestimate how many caloriesI've eaten.
Still, if I don't track my food, I'll be like, oh shit, I'm 400
over.
Well, there is my deficit forthe day.
So now I'm going to surplusshit and I'm a coach and I still
do that shit.
So if I'm doing it, I know youare, he knows.
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