June 4, 2025 • 44 mins
For far too long, homosexual activists have tried to twist Scripture to make it look as though the Bible supports same-sex attraction. Joe Dallas will join us to discuss another book recently released that tries, yet again, to make it look like God’s love knows no bounds – and therefore, there really is no need for repentance from sin. Using the ‘straight stick of God’s truth’ as our metric, we will examine some twisted ideas being ‘sold’ in the marketplace of ideas.
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S1 (00:00):
Hi friend, thank you so much for downloading this podcast
and I truly hope you hear something that edifies encourage, equips, enlightens,
and then gets you out there in the marketplace of ideas.
But before you go, I want to tell you about
this month's truth tool. It's called Have You Ever Wondered?
And I absolutely love this topic because if you're like me,
going out into the night sky and looking up and
seeing a million stars, don't you just stop and think
(00:22):
about God? And are you not in a moment of
awe and wonder or looking out over the vast expanse
of an ocean and you start thinking, what is man,
that thou art mindful of him? And it makes you
wonder about the magnificence of God? I think that sense
of wonder was put there on purpose, and this wonderful
book includes a composite of multiple authors who have written
(00:42):
from their perspective as a scientist, or a historian, or
a mathematician or an artist, on why they all have
this sense of awe through the work that they do.
In other words, the heavens declare the glory. And as
it tells us in Romans, we are really without excuse
because his handiwork is everywhere. And this book invites you
to walk through the chapters written by people who all
(01:03):
have a sense of awe and wonder when it comes
to God through their various disciplines in life. It's an
amazing book and it's yours. For a gift of any amount,
just call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58. Ask
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you can go online to in the market with Janet Parshall.
(01:26):
When you're also on the website, consider becoming a partial partner.
Those are people who give every single month at a
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(01:46):
partner or asking for this month's truth tool. Have you
ever wondered? And now please enjoy the broadcast.
S2 (01:53):
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3 (01:55):
The conference was over. The president won a of.
S4 (01:58):
The Americans worshiping government over God.
S3 (02:00):
Extremely rare safety move by a major.
S4 (02:03):
17 years the Palestinians and Israelis negotiated.
S3 (02:21):
Hi friends.
S1 (02:22):
Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. So glad
we're going to spend the hour together. And you need
to bring your thinking cap, because we're going to have
a 400 level conversation and we're going to think like Bereans. Now,
let me go back to that passage in acts so
amazing that the Bereans weren't checking out the pagans of
the day. They were fact checking. Paul. And the mandate
(02:42):
is for you and me to do that as well.
To be people who test all things, even when people
are speaking what you think is theology or religiosity, more
to the point, or even worse, they're purporting to be
speaking Christianity. Okay, wonderful. In this country we have the
liberty to do that. But we need to understand that
(03:03):
just because someone has the liberty to say it doesn't
make it right and true and good. And the directive
is regardless of where you live on planet Earth, is
to test all things. So that's what we're going to
do this hour. There's a brand new book out that
is written by a homosexual. He happens to be a
person who's got an appearance on TikTok, and he has
written before, by the way, and this book will be
(03:24):
heralded by all of the secular media that already has
a particularly concretized worldview that is anti-Christian and pro LGBTQ.
It's not real hard to get on these programs, by
the way, if you decide that you're in animus against Christianity,
trust me, you'll get called up in two shakes of
a lamb's tail. If you are pro gay rights, particularly
in the month of June, you're going to get bought
(03:46):
on television. So you're going to hear a lot of
conversations about this book. But what I want to do is, again,
not interested in going after the author by any stretch
of the imagination. I've met the author. In fact, I
invited the author to come and participate in a debate
that I hosted as well. But I have to tell
you that when the Bible commands us to test all things,
I want to know the things that are being said
in this book, whether they or not, whether or not
(04:07):
they come into alignment with what Dwight Moody called the
straight stick of truth. Is this a misinterpretation of Scripture?
Is it eisegesis? Which means you are applying to the
scriptures something that's not there, or exegesis where you're letting
the passage explain itself? Are you misinterpreting Scripture to make
it culturally comfortable, and to advance a particular political worldview
(04:29):
or ideology that you might have? And again, all of
this is right and good, and I think demanding of
the believer today, particularly in these latter days, where we
have to stop and say, particularly if we're going to
go to the marketplace of ideas and please tell me
you're going there. If we're going to go there on
a regular basis and you hear someone talk about being
queer and Christian, well, you're going to have to find
out if there's a contradiction there or if the title
(04:51):
of the book is Brandon Robertson writes it, Queer and
Christian reclaiming the Bible, our faith and our place at
the table. Now there's an old saying that says you
can't tell a book by its cover. In this case,
I would say you can tell a book by its cover,
because your top endorsement is from Don lemon. Used to
be on CNN, openly homosexual. The foreword is written by
Bishop Gene Robinson, who was a former Episcopal Anglican priest,
(05:13):
homosexual activist. And then you open on the inside and
you've got a beginning of the book, a reflective moment
from none other than John Dominic Crossan. Why is that important? Well,
let me tell you who John Dominic Crossan is. Now,
we haven't gotten to the content of the book. These
are just the names that come jumping out of the
book immediately. John Dominic Crossan, by the way, is someone who, uh,
(05:34):
was a priest. He's an Irish American historian of early Christianity.
He was a prominent member of something called the Jesus Seminar.
What was the Jesus Seminar? Well, it had its heyday
not too long ago where a bunch of people got
around together in a circle, figuratively speaking, although they may
have said literally in a circle, I don't know. But
here's what they did do, which is about as, um, well,
(05:57):
antiquated if not theologically suspect as it gets. They literally
would look at the scriptures and they would vote using
colored beads on what parts of the scripture were right
and which parts weren't. So for example, if you voted
with a red bead, that was way the voter believing
that Jesus did say the passage quoted, and something very
much like the passage. If, however, you voted with a
(06:19):
pink bead, it indicated that the voter believed that Jesus
probably said something kind of like that in the passage. Oh,
but if you voted with a gray bead indicated the
voter believed. Jesus didn't say the passage, but it contains
Jesus's ideas. That's how you voted. Now, if you're going
to roll colored stones on the ground and determine that's
what you think constitutes the authority, the power, and the
(06:39):
historicity of Scripture, I have a problem right out of
the gate, but I also have a problem when you
start looking at the dedication page. And again, we haven't
even gotten to the substance yet. And I'm going to
read the dedication, and then I'm going to introduce my
guests because we're going to spend this hour. Both of
us have read this book, by the way, cover to cover,
and we're going to take a look at what the
Bible says versus the ideas that are being posited in
this book. So the dedication page says this, dedicated to
(07:02):
all the queer people who have ever been on the
receiving end of bigotry and abuse at the hands of
someone holding a Bible. May this book help you to
reclaim your power and know deep in your bones that
you are beloved by God. Italics. Just as you are.
Joe Dallas is with us. Author, speaker, counselor who speaks nationwide.
He directs a biblical counseling ministry for those dealing with
(07:23):
sexual and relational problems and with their families as well.
He is the founder of Genesis Biblical Solutions in Tustin, California.
He's written several books on human sexuality from a Christian perspective,
including The Best Selling Desires in Conflict and the Gay gospel.
His articles have been in Christianity Today and the Journal
of Psychology and Christianity, and you can follow him because
he blogs regularly at Joe Dallas.com. He has a fabulous
(07:46):
video teaching series. He has a once a month phone
call with pastors around the globe who call and ask, Joe,
how do I answer this? Because these questions are coming
up in my church. We're going to tell you about
all of that, give you a ton of resources. But Joe, first,
thank you. Thank you for putting in the sweat equity.
I didn't pay you to do it, so you just
did it out of your own compassion and I appreciate
it to read the book. So thank you. But I
really thought that this first statement is a perfect encapsulation
(08:09):
because we all sang the song in Sunday School. Jesus
loves me. This, I know for the Bible tells me so.
So if we take the sentence and we say that
you are beloved by God just as you are, period,
and we leave it there, it's well, it's partly true.
It's typical of what Satan does, isn't it? He takes
a little bit of truth and then tries to wrongly
(08:30):
contextualize it and turns it into a whole lie. So
Jesus loves you just as you are. I am a
hot mess. In fact, let me quote Newton instead I
am a great sinner in need of a great Savior.
Thank you God, for not leaving me just where I was.
So talk to me about that.
S5 (08:47):
Well, Janet, this all kind of reminds me of what
I used to do when I was a boy. If
my dad or mom said no to me, I would say, well,
if you loved me, you would. And I think that's
the mentality we're bringing into this discussion. If he loves
me just as I am, then I get to stay
just as I am.
S1 (09:10):
And I'm not sure that that Scripture gives us the
allowance to say that you stay just as you are.
In fact, let me just have one verse for you
to think on as we go to break. If we're
to stay just as we are, then why are we
being challenged to constantly being conformed and transformed in the
image of Christ? Why are we told by Paul to
grow up in him? Why are we told to get
off a diet of milk and move to meet? All
(09:31):
of that seems to be progress and growth. But hey,
just something to think about. We're just getting started. Joe Dallas,
our guest. We're going to take a look at this
new book and take a look at the straight stick
of truth and see if there's any crooked ideas there
back after this. So many in our culture today are
(09:57):
spiritually curious but hesitant about religion. That's why I've chosen.
Have you ever wondered, is this month's truth to explore
how everyday experiences might be the signpost pointing to deeper
biblical truths? As for your copy of have you ever
wondered when you give a gift of any amount to
in the market, call 877. 58. That's eight 7758 or
go to in the market with Janet Parshall.
S3 (10:21):
So there's a new book out. It's called Queer.
S1 (10:23):
And Christian Reclaiming the Bible Our Faith and Our Place
at the table. So it's out there in the marketplace
of ideas and being good Bereans. We're going to test
all things. And I want to know whether or not
the things that Brandon Roberts and the author of the
book writes about in this book do, in fact, come
into alignment with Scripture, or is he convoluting and twisting
Scripture so that he comes with a predetermined outcome. That's
(10:46):
what we're going to talk about this hour. Joe Dallas
is with us. He and I have both read the book.
And again, Joe heads a counseling ministry for people who
have struggled in this area, as he did once upon
a time in his own life. So he is the
perfect apologist for this conversation. Let me go back if
I can, because I think this is worthy of a
little bit more discussion, because I think for a lot
of believers, here's where they get stuck in the quagmire. Well,
they know that we're Christians by our love. God so
(11:07):
loved the world that he gave his only begotten son.
God loves me an indisputable, absolute, immutable truth, comma. And
here's where the departure in the road takes place, just
as you are now. Billy Graham had that hymn that
people would sing as they came forward after the altar call,
just as I am. But the idea wasn't coming forward.
It was then going forward with Jesus Christ not staying
(11:30):
in your sin. Talk to me about that.
S5 (11:32):
Yeah, we need to graduate in our Hymnology Janet. We
start with just as I am, but pretty soon thereafter
we need to start singing have thine own way, Lord. Yes.
I mean, we look, if we couldn't come just as
we were, then we'd never make it, would we? Just
like you said. I mean, I I won't call myself
a hot mess. I'm a mess. It's hot. Hasn't applied
(11:54):
to me in about 200 years. But I'll take the
mess part. But, uh, you know, the whole idea of
if God loves us just as we are, we must
therefore be just fine, just as we are is sheer nonsense.
And you quoted the verse yourself which lays that whole
myth to rest. If if it was just that God
so loved the world and that's all it said, no problem.
(12:15):
But he said, God so loved the world that he
gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes on him
should not perish. What does that mean? We're going to perish.
God loves us, but without salvation we're going to perish.
So clearly God loving us does not mean we are
allowed to stay just as we are. We first need
to be born again. Jesus said, that's the essential. And
(12:36):
then if we name the name of Christ, we've got
a mandate to depart from iniquity. And guess what? We
don't get to define for ourselves what iniquity is, which
I believe is the biggest error in the book we're
talking about today. Brandon has basically said we can subjectively
determine what is wrong, rather than rely on the Bible
(12:57):
for an objective standard.
S1 (12:59):
Exactly right. So as a quick overview, there are four
parts to the book. The first part is his story
more or less about coming out, being raised in a
trailer park in suburban Maryland and going to school and
then getting involved in activism, and it tells his story.
Then he goes to the second part, which is of
the most concern to me. And again, as I said,
(13:19):
I've met Brandon. He's a very nice person. This isn't
about the author himself by any stretch of the imagination.
It's the ideas. You know, when I play Wolf Audio
on Fridays, I always say, I'm not even going to
name the pastor or the denomination, but in fact, we're
going to just look at what the overflow of the
heart is. So I'm looking at the overflow of the
pen in this book, Reclaiming the Bible. Let's get biblical.
So what? There were so many statements that I found
(13:42):
rather stunning about all of this, and one of them
was the fact that there is no sexual ethic he
alleges in the scriptures at all. I found that to
be problematic. I could take off at least a half
a dozen immediately, where we're given directions about our sexual
ethic and behavior. Why is the statement that there is
no biblical sexual ethic erroneous?
S5 (14:05):
It's erroneous because it, first of all, claims that the
Bible is vague, where the Bible is very specific. Um,
the Bible is very specific in celebrating the fact that
God created human sexuality. God looked on Adam and Eve
in their raw, naked sexual selves and said, that's good.
And we know that when man fell. Virtually everything that
(14:28):
was good went bad. So we now have God given sexuality,
a great gift to be celebrated within a covenant for
the safety of both partners and for reproduction, and for
the creation of the family and the the population of
the world, and so forth. Um, but, uh, anybody claiming
(14:49):
the Bible doesn't have a sexual ethic has either not
read the Bible or is reading the Bible, um, with, with, uh,
blindfold because virtually every book in the New Testament, not
to mention most of the Old Testament books, mentions and
condemns sexual sin that right away tells you there is
such a thing as sexual behavior that is not God's will.
(15:09):
And the only form of sexual expression that's commended in
both testaments is a heterosexual covenant union of marriage between
a man and a woman. Now, in fairness, I want
to point out that that Robertson is very honest, at
least in in his assessment of the Bible. He does
make it very clear that he does not consider the
(15:31):
Bible to be the inerrant Word of God. In fact,
I'll quote him here. Quote I don't think that the
Bible is the inerrant Word of God, and therefore, I
also don't think all of the morality that we find
in the pages of the Bible is worthy of being followed.
End quote. Now I want to give the guy credit
for being honest about that, because most pro-gay theology books,
(15:53):
most books that try to basically rewrite the Bible claim
to come from a base of respecting the inerrant Word
of God as being the inerrant Word of God. Troy Perry,
Mel White certainly. Matthew Vines they claim to come from
a traditional conservative base, and they're just helping us. Other
traditionalists understand how we're misinterpreting the word of God. Robertson
(16:15):
takes it further and says, I don't want to just
reinterpret these verses. I also want to reinterpret the way
we're viewing the Bible. So at least as I said,
he's honest about that. But if that's the case, you're
kind of left wondering, well, by what standard do you judge,
right or wrong? And in his case, it's a very
subjective standard. All of that to say, Janet, if you
(16:36):
don't believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God,
if you don't believe that what it teaches about sexuality
is authoritative, then it's probably easier to say, gee, I
don't see any particular sexual ethic in the Bible because
I think you've already decided that the Bible is a
book you may use as you see fit, rather than
you being fit into what the Bible teaches.
S1 (16:59):
And forgive me if this seems simplistic, but it's the
way my mind works. Robertson is pursuing a PhD in
Biblical Studies as we speak. That, to me is like
saying I'm going to be a plumber, but I hate water.
Why would you even want to pursue a degree in
biblical studies if you don't think that the Bible is
the inerrant, transcendent, immutable word of God doesn't contain the
(17:20):
Word of God, is the Word of God. Now, obviously
we're going to do a flyover, but we want you
to get some of these ideas because they're going to
work their way into mainstream conversation. They're going to show
up in a conversation that you're going to have with somebody.
This book is going to be touted because it is
Anti-biblical Anti-christianity. That's all you have to do to get
a spotlight in the secular press. So when you hear
(17:40):
these ideas, are you prepared to give a reason for
the hope that resides within you? More to talk about
with Joe Dallas right after this. Joe Dallas is with us,
an author, a speaker, a counselor, speaks nationwide, directs a
biblical counseling ministry in Tustin, California. He's written several books
(18:03):
on human sexuality from a Christian perspective, including The Best
Selling Desires in Conflict and the Gay gospel. Question mark,
Joel joins us today because there's a brand new book out.
It'll get a lot of traction when you hear about it. Okay.
This is your opportunity to be a Berean and check
all things. So it's called Queer and Christian Reclaiming the Bible,
our faith and our place at the table. So you
(18:24):
just pointed out the fact that Brandon Robertson, the author,
has made the declaration that he really doesn't see the
Bible as the word of God. So when you do that,
it's like Plato. You can pull it and stretch it
any way you want to to mean anything you want.
So for an example, before I go to the example,
let me just pull back a little bit and ask
a question I should have asked earlier, Joe, which is
you've read every book that's out there, you've responded to
these in speeches and in your writing as well. But
(18:46):
you say that somehow this book is different. Tell me why.
S5 (18:49):
This is different. Essentially, in the fact that the author
is not pretending to believe that the Bible is inerrant,
where most of the authors do make that claim. So
there's a difference, um, between between moving an ancient landmark,
which is what most of the pro-gay theology books do,
(19:10):
versus removing the landmark altogether. Robertson wants to remove it.
And yet, ironically, Janet, just like you were saying, if
the Bible is not inerrant and authority, why the heck
works so hard to make it say what you want
it to say that there is some kind of a
contradiction there.
S1 (19:29):
I think it's a way of saying, see, you're accepted
just the way we are. There is no moral ethical.
More to the point, biblical prohibition to engaging in same
sex sexual activity. And I'm going to prove why I'm right. Now,
that's a false premise when you think about it. Because
if you start by proof, texting a book you don't
even believe in, it's a fallacious argument right out of
the gate. So let me give you an example. So
(19:50):
Adam and Eve, male and female, he created them both.
He makes the declaration that Genesis one and two are poems,
not literal historical accounts. And the emphasis I'm reading directly
from his book, and the emphasis is on the need
for humans to be in relationship with one another, not
on the gender of those relationships. From where I'm sitting,
that's kind of missing the story by 150,000 miles. Talk
(20:10):
to me about this.
S5 (20:11):
You could not read the Genesis account and come to
that conclusion unless you have already decided you wanted to
come to that conclusion, because what God specifically said he
provided for Adam in looking at his need for companionship
was a woman, God said it's not good for him
to be alone. This is the problem and therefore this
(20:35):
is the solution. So to claim that there is some
even indicator that, oh, any old person of any old
sex will do contradicts exactly what God said when he said,
I have a solution and I know what I'm doing.
Here is the solution. So on the one hand, as
a man who himself wrestled with homosexuality, I can understand
(20:57):
how deeply ingrained it is. I can understand how you
might feel like, hey, if that doesn't feel natural to me,
shouldn't I have a partnership with what feels natural to me?
And while I can understand that reasoning, it doesn't hold
up in light of Scripture which says we have a creator.
In the beginning, God created the creator in his wisdom,
(21:17):
created a solution to the need for human companionship of
the most intimate kind. And that's the solution. Now, if
you want to reject the Bible, you may, but you
cannot with intellectual integrity say that it doesn't say what
it so clearly says.
S1 (21:31):
Excellent. Thank you and so much more there. By the way,
what we're doing is we're doing a quick flyover of
what are often referred to in the homosexual activist community
as clobber passages. In other words, this is beating you
over the head with what the scriptures have to say.
And so what I think Robertson is trying to do
here is unpack them so that they fit in his worldview.
And the question, the transcendent question is, is he right
(21:52):
or wrong? So let's go to Sodom and Gomorrah. We
have discussed this before. This is an interesting twist. I
would have to say that this radical redefinition of the
story of Sodom and Gomorrah is probably maybe 15, maybe
20 years max. It's a rather new iteration of this
that it really wasn't about sexual sin. That's not why
God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. It was about inhospitality. So
talk to me about this.
S5 (22:13):
Well, the the what I would call outright silliness of
that is the severity of lot's offer. Um, when when
he was saying, oh, don't be inhospitable, I'll give you
my daughters.
S1 (22:23):
Right, right.
S5 (22:23):
Where in the world did that come from? I mean, obviously,
what these men were going to, what they were proposing
to do, um, was, was far beyond inhospitality. It was
an act of extreme violence. And I so I think
that's that's like saying, you know, so and so murdered. So,
(22:44):
you know, another person and the reason that was a
sin was, well, it was rude. What the heck? You
know this. So no, I think, uh, in fact, the
first time I heard that interpretation, I thought, well, I
guess I agree that was rather inhospitable, but, uh, really,
it's much darker than that. And I think a clear
reading of it says the men gathered around with the
(23:05):
intent to rape, um, lots of visitors and then lot himself.
And to minimize that by saying the sin of Sodom
was Inhospitality is, I think, again, a minimizing of a
terrible act that they proposed.
S1 (23:21):
Exactly. Robertson says that Ezekiel tells us that the reason
God destroyed the city was their inhospitality. He writes they
sought to rape and kill foreigners. They were xenophobes, not gay.
Any defense for that?
S5 (23:34):
Okay, now I have never before reading this I never
even saw the word xenophobe attached to the Sodom account. Um,
and that to me, really does seem like an indirect
swing at those of us who believe that the borders
of our country ought to be protected, that somehow makes
us sodomites. Right. But I, I do think, um, you know,
in fairness, Ezekiel did clarify something that I do believe,
(23:57):
which is that Sodom was not destroyed just because of homosexuality. Uh,
the word inhospitality is not there as much as a
lack of concern for the poor and for God. And
Ezekiel said they did commit abominations before me. That's all
covered in Genesis.
S1 (24:14):
Yeah, exactly. I can tell this hour is going to
go far too quickly. Joe, I'm so glad you come
and visit on a regular basis, because we'll have to
pick this up because I think this is going to
have a lot of cultural conversations. Also, when we come back, Joe,
I want to talk about some of your resources and
we'll go back into the book because you are invaluable
right now in the midst of this cultural conversation. And
I want to talk about some videos. I want to
(24:35):
talk about your pastor's meetings. I want to talk about resources.
Here's something you can chew on friends, as we go
to break Joe Dallas, that's his website. It's his name.
I love it when people do that. Joe dallas.com. Hang
on to that. It's also on the info page. We'll
tell you what you can find there right after this.
(24:57):
We live in a culture that's infatuated with the latest fads,
but Ephesians 415 calls for us to be stable, no
longer infants, Paul said, tossed about by the waves and
carried around by every wind of teaching on in the market.
We're exposing current trends and finding our balance by standing
on the solid foundation of God's Word to get exclusive
behind the scenes information and benefits, become a partial partner.
Call 877 Janet, 58, or go online to in the
(25:20):
market with Janet Parshall. We're visiting with Joe Dallas. He's
an author, a speaker, and a counselor who speaks nationwide.
He directs a wonderful ministry called Genesis Biblical Solutions in Tustin, California.
He helps people who struggle with sexual and relational problems
and their families as well. He's a prolific author. He's
written multiple books on human sexuality from a biblical perspective.
(25:43):
He blogs daily Joe Dallas.com or Joe Dallas online. But
if you can go to Joe Dallas.com, you're going to
find a ton of resources, including a video course entitled
When Someone You Love is Gay. Joe, talk to me
about this.
S5 (25:57):
Yeah, Janet, I put that together because so many parents
call our offices regularly saying, what do I do now?
Let me clarify this. I've been counseling for 38 years,
men and women who want to overcome homosexuality. But for
every man or woman who is dealing with that, there
are parents. And so many parents have called and said,
I'm glad there's help available for for the person. But
(26:20):
what about for us? And in many cases, of course,
parents have sons or daughters who are just saying, I'm
openly gay. This is how it is. So this course
walks them through what to expect, what to say, what
not to say, what boundaries to set and, uh, what
how to deal with your own grief, your own anger,
your own fears. And then, of course, there's sort of
(26:42):
like sample dialogues included as well, to help people understand
better how to have the conversation that you need to have.
So it's an equipping video series for parents who've had
sons or daughters come out to them. How do they,
as Christians, respond?
S1 (26:56):
Now I have a direct link right on my info page,
right to the video series. But again, Joe Dallas.com it
is just steeped with information. But if you're interested in
going directly to the video series, it's there as well.
I would be remiss because I am thrilled that you're
doing this, and I've been so excited to see how
the Lord just enlarges what's happening. Talk to me about
the monthly challenge for pastors.
S5 (27:17):
Oh, I've loved that, Janet. Yeah. Thank you for asking. Uh,
once a month, I'm meeting in a zoom meeting for
pastors from around the country and really in, in, uh,
around the world. Really? Um, we've got over 550 now, and, uh,
we talk about the different ministry challenges that come up
every month. We do a lesson on a new issue,
(27:38):
just like, for example, um, this past month, in May, uh,
we did a session on how do you develop ministry
in your own church to people who are struggling with homosexuality?
This month, we'll be talking about how do you respond
to pro transgender theology? We're talking about pro-gay theology, you
and I today. But there's also a growing body of
(27:58):
work that calls itself pro transgender theology, in which Scripture
is reinterpreted to legitimize transitioning and to basically deconstruct the
idea of there being only two genders. So we try
to hit on different ministry topics that will be of
interest to pastors who are trying to serve their congregations
and speak responsibly on this topic.
S1 (28:21):
Again, everything's at Joe Dallas.com the challenge for pastors, right
on the top of the page. Pastors, if you're not
a part of this, you're really missing something. So I
encourage you to do that again. There's a video series
when you are a parent of someone who's struggling in
this area. Joe does a wonderful job of teaching parents
how to respond. And then you've got another video series two.
In fact, you've got a lot of videos, Joe, for
which I'm very, very thankful. But you've also got one
(28:43):
where it's a whole series of walking through this whole
quasi theology and questions about sexuality. Talk to me about that.
S5 (28:51):
Yes. And you were gracious enough to endorse that, which
I sure appreciate, Janet, but that's called pastor. What about LGBTQ?
And that's an 18 part video series for pastors and
ministry leaders, in which we talk about all of the
different ways we need to approach this in our churches.
We need to develop in-house policies so that it's clear
(29:12):
to people where we stand and how we we express
and in some cases even enforce our positions. How we
counsel the different people affected by this parents strugglers, how
we teach our youth. There's a section in there on
how to talk to our young people about the issue.
There are sections in there about how we respond to
pro-gay theology, just like you and I are doing today, Janet.
(29:33):
And then how we counsel individually people who are transgender,
a woman who is married to a man who comes
out as gay, a person who struggles with homosexuality. So
it's basically set to equip pastors and ministry leaders to
be more able to more fully able to address the
ministry challenges that this subject brings up. And there are
(29:55):
so many.
S1 (29:56):
Oh, that's just exactly what I was going to say.
But let me just say, as a sister in the Lord,
I'm so thankful that you were obedient to the prompting
of the Holy Spirit to do this. This takes a
lot of time and energy to put these resources together,
but the fact that we're having a conversation about a
book that's going to show up on all the major
talk shows probably fly to the top of the New
York Times best selling list. It's easy. It's easy to
do that, by the way. Deny Christ and you know
(30:17):
the kingdom is yours right here on earth. It happens
all the time. So we need resources like the ones
you just described more than ever before. So thank you
so very much for doing that. Especially when books like
this are going to create more confusing conversations and people
are going to be looking for answers. So on that note,
let me go back to queer and Christian reclaiming the Bible,
our Faith and Our place at the table, new book
by Brandon Robertson, who, uh, is getting his PhD in
(30:41):
biblical studies. But he's an author and he's an activist. Um,
he was part of President Obama's, uh, evangelicals for Marriage Equality,
and that was before Obergefell was handed down. So that
turned out to be unnecessary because the Supreme Court did it.
Wanted to do anyway. At least we don't have the
Equality Act, but I digress. Let me go back. So
Brandon makes this statement. At this point in the book,
(31:01):
I've demonstrated that at the very least, the Bible has
no explicit, unambiguous condemnations of queer people or our lives
and love your response to that?
S5 (31:11):
Yes. He makes an interesting distinction there. Uh, Janet, he
he basically says the Bible says nothing about queer people.
And our love, as if to say the Bible may
condemn an act, but that has nothing to do with us, because,
first of all, the authors of the Bible didn't understand
sexuality the way we understand it today. And secondly, when
(31:34):
the Bible says, a man shall not lie with another man,
that's assuming that the sex between those men is exploitive.
So it doesn't condemn those of us who are in
gay loving relationships. Right? So he makes an interesting distinction
that is not made with any other sexual act. Janet.
Just for example, the Bible condemns adultery. There's no context
(31:54):
to that. There's no contingency to that. If a man
has a one night stand with a woman who is
not his wife, he's committed adultery. If a man falls
in love with a woman who is not his wife
and has sexual relations, he's committed adultery. Love doesn't change
the sin nature of the act itself. And this is
where Brandon very cleverly says the only homosexual sex condemned
(32:16):
in the Bible is impersonal or exploitive gay sex, which
has nothing to do with gay couples today.
S1 (32:24):
Yeah, well, and that's a torturous new angle that's taken
by gay activists on trying.
S5 (32:29):
To.
S1 (32:30):
Give liberty to your behavior in Scripture. Uh, I thought
I'd heard everything under the sun, I hadn't. This is
why I try to stay on top of these kinds
of conversations. There's a whole section on what he calls
the queer saints of Scripture, and I didn't have a
clue that Ruth and Naomi apparently were lesbians. Talk to
me about this again.
S5 (32:49):
Um, you've really got to stretch things. Not only stretch them,
distort them to come to the conclusion that if two
people loved each other, they must have been having sex. Janet,
I love a lot of people. Heaven's sakes, I love
my dog. So this, you know, to to even imply
that a depth of love automatically means there must have
(33:11):
been a sexual relationship, is to distort the whole idea
that there is any form of love that is not sexual.
Ruth and Naomi loved each other very much that we know,
and that's all we know. There is nothing indicating that
the two of them had a sexual relationship. In fact, Janet,
let's remember the Bible is not shy when it talks
about sex. That's right. That the sex was right or wrong.
(33:34):
The Bible says they lay with each other. They knew
each other. You do not see that in any description
of behavior between Ruth and Naomi. You see a deep
love and a deep commitment to each other's well-being. And
that's it. So if we are going to imply that
if somebody loves and cares for the well-being of another person,
they must be having sex. We're basically sexualizing every friendship
(33:57):
that ever existed, which again, is is ludicrous.
S1 (34:00):
And, you know, I was thinking also about this to Joe.
It would really help us if we could read the
scriptures through Middle Eastern eyes, wouldn't it? So we could
understand what the family makeup was like and why there
would be this intense devotion and protection of each other
given the circumstances that they had gone through. Right. But
to say the word this is a grotesque, postmodern definition
(34:20):
and cheapening of the word love, that every time the
word love is used and it's replicated in several of
the other, quote, gay saints of Scripture that Branden talks
about every time it's love, there's an implication and an
application in his mind of sexual behavior. That's a quantum leap,
that's unjustifiable, and that's subjective, completely.
S5 (34:39):
Not only subjective. I first of all, I don't mean
to slam the guy because I've watched videos of him
and I find him to be very likable in the
way he presents, but I think it's a little weird
and quirky to jump into a sexual interpretation of every deep,
loving relationship. Yeah. That to me shows something is really
off balance there.
S1 (34:58):
Exactly. And not only that, but when you're using as
your expert witnesses, he quotes a queer Bible scholar didn't
know there was such a thing. Did your friends? Now
you do. And apparently this woman writes that the relationship
between these three characters, Boaz, Ruth and Naomi is, quote,
similar to the ways in which queer people of today
create families. A bisexual man and two lesbians live together
with their biological child. A gay man is a sperm donor,
(35:20):
sperm donor for the lesbian couple, and as part of
the parenting for their child, three gay men living together
as lovers and family. For 20 years, a lesbian mother
and her lover lived two doors down from their lesbian
daughter and her lover. Wow, what a stretch. None of
that is there in Scripture by any stretch of the
imagination and again, worldview. It's an imposition of the queer
Bible scholars end quote worldview again, to turn something. Well,
(35:45):
it's if we were in Bible class, we would say
this is quintessential Eisegesis, is it not?
S5 (35:50):
Oh my gosh. Yeah. I mean, Brandon should be grateful
that there is no such thing as ghosts, because I
would hate to think of what the ghost of Ruth, Boaz,
and Naomi would be doing to that guy for the
way he has so distorted their relationship.
S1 (36:03):
Exactly. There are a couple of others I want to
touch on them lightly. But again, Jill, we don't have
to go through the whole book today because I get
to talk with you on a regular basis so we
can save some for the future. But there are other
points in here that I want to discover. Joe Dallas
is with us. So thankful for his work. I've known
Joe not for years, but for decades. He is as
straight as an arrow, no pun intended. But I mean
theologically he is right on the money. He is the
(36:26):
perfect embodiment of truth in love. That's why I love
talking to him. He absolutely knows how to counsel people
in a Christ like, loving fashion, but he never, ever
retreats from the truth. It's why I'm so happy to
call him my friend back after this. So what were
(36:56):
the Bereans called to do? They were called to test
all things, and particularly when in the marketplace of ideas,
somebody is espousing what they allege to be biblical or
a representation of Christianity. A it has my attention, and
b it better have my attention, because that's where the
testing all things comes in. So when a book comes
out and it says queer and Christian gets my attention.
(37:18):
Subtitle Reclaiming the Bible. Well, there's your first situation. Our
faith and our place at the table. Brandon Robertson is
the author. Again. As I said, I've met Brandon and
asked him to actually participate in a panel discussion that
I moderated at one point in time. Wonderful young man.
But I think he's got some very erroneous ideas in here.
And when you start out with the declaration, as he
(37:40):
does in his book, that he really doesn't believe the
Bible is inerrant, you really wonder why all the work?
And he says this was one of the most difficult
books he's ever had to write. Why would you bother
to tear down a book you don't even believe in anyway?
You could just wave a wand and say, it's all
stuff that I don't believe in, but I think it
isn't written for that purpose. I think it's really to
try to encourage, perhaps even Bible believing Christians who struggle
(38:03):
with same sex attraction, that it's okay. God's given you permission.
Did God say it's an old lie? But boy, is
it effective and it's still being used. So I want
to touch on this one simply because there's so much
in this book, Joe, but I think it was the
one about Joseph that really got my attention. Joseph's magic dress.
Now in the book, this was so interesting because he
(38:24):
said the term for the garment. Then he gives the
Hebrew term for the garment that Joseph was given by
his dad, the coat of many colors, which traditionally meant
something like a satin garment with long sleeves that was, quote,
specifically designed to be worn by highborn women. In other words,
this was not a garment typically worn by a man,
which gives context to why Joseph's brothers mock Joseph and
(38:44):
his satin gown. Now, you know, don't let the facts
get in the way. But you know, if you're really
into that, you got to understand that satin came out
of China under the Northern Song dynasty between 960 and
1127 A.D., a little bit after Joseph's time. So I'm
pretty sure being Bedouins and they were nomadic that the
goat was made out of wool. But hey, that's just me.
(39:07):
So Saturn wasn't even around when Joseph was there. But
the intimation here is that he's trans. Okay. He puts
this coat on. He's different than his brothers. And the
animus toward the brothers is that he's different, in fact,
so different that he's even dressed different from the brothers. Again,
this breaks my heart at its core because talk about
missing the story. He's a type for Christ. There's so
(39:28):
much that goes on in Joseph's story that's rich and
deep and powerful and important. Crying when his brothers come
back to him again, being falsely accused and imprisoned for
three years. I mean so much. And you get hung
up on the coat being satin really designed for women
if you think satin was around in the BC era.
So your thoughts.
S5 (39:46):
I think you have to again want to find something
and look for it until you hallucinate and see it.
To come up with an interpretation like that. I'm with you, Janet.
I and I've kept up on pro-gay theology for decades now.
That was a new one to me. And I think
the only, the only thing we would encourage people to
(40:08):
do is look for yourself at that story, read the
story and tell me if you would come to that conclusion.
Very clearly. Joseph's brothers hated him because he was so
favored by their father and that was it. There is
nothing to indicate he had any sort of gender confusion.
As a matter of fact, I'm convinced that at least
part of the reason he had to flee, um, when
(40:31):
his master's wife tried to seduce him was because he
knew he was in danger of committing a gross error
on his own part. You'll notice that when he ran
away from her, uh, he did not say. You know,
I find it intolerable that that, uh, that I could
ever be with a woman. What he said was, how
can I do this great sin? Meaning I'm tempted, and
you're tempting, but I'm not going to do it, which
(40:51):
is not what a transgender person would say in a
situation like that. Again. Janet. No, No honest person would
look at that account and come to that conclusion unless
they were trying to torture it to make it say
what they wanted it to say.
S1 (41:04):
Exactly. Let me do. And again, I want to thank
you in advance for our future conversations, because there's so
much here, and I think this is worthy of unpacking.
But I do want to touch on this one. So
I'm writing reading directly from the book. This may come
as a surprise to many, but the Jesus Christ of
the Gospels is undeniably queer. This isn't some liberal rereading
of the gay agenda onto Jesus either. From a historical perspective,
(41:25):
Jesus Christ was queer again. When I'm using the word queer,
excuse me in this context, I am referring to any
way that Jesus transgressed sexual and gender assumptions in his
culture and era. Jesus was a young Jewish man in
the first century, and there were very clear exceptions for
how a young Jewish man should express his gender and
engage sexually. Talk to me about that.
S5 (41:49):
I don't even know where to start with that, Janet.
It it is. It is so many different shades of blasphemy.
I could write a book on that alone. 50 Shades
of Blasphemy. Yes it is. Yeah, it it shows no respect,
even if you don't believe in the Bible. To suggest
that because Jesus was different. I'll buy that. He was different. Well,
(42:12):
this is God incarnate who was not, uh, not bound
by any sin in his life. And he called a
spade a spade. But to even suggest that somehow that
translates into homosexuality is, uh, really to, uh, not not
only impose, it's to basically violate the Scripture itself. And
(42:34):
there I, I almost felt like Robertson was going from
error into an aggressive form of blasphemy to suggest such
a thing, not unlike what, um, Martin Scorsese did way
back in 88 when he released the film, uh, The
Last Temptation of Christ, indicating that Jesus had a sexual
(42:55):
relationship with Mary Magdalene. Um, and in both cases, the
blasphemous aspect of it was, will we assume that because
he was human, he must have wanted to have sex
with somebody? And then, of course, it's convenient to assume
that he is gay and therefore, uh, he was what
we would call queer. But again, I don't even know
where to begin in trying to describe what a gross
(43:17):
distortion that is and what a level of blasphemy it is,
he's taken blasphemy there to a whole new height.
S1 (43:23):
I agree, I agree, and again, when you don't let
the word be your guide, he knew no sin. You
know there's a stumbling stone for his theory right there.
But more importantly, if from Genesis to Revelation, the book
is about Jesus, if you don't believe in the book,
then you don't believe in the Jesus that is told
about in the book. And obviously the central character to
(43:44):
the Word of God is Jesus. So the ultimate argument
to unleash your sexual activity is to be able to
say that, look, even Jesus himself was queer. So and
then he goes on and he tells more horrific stories
about Jesus, and I agree, I think the reason that
one is so problematic for me is it really is
the working definition of blasphemy. And I'm sorry, but I
don't think Brother Paul would have been quiet about that.
(44:06):
And I don't think we should be either. Quick question
is this rapidly comes to a close. Do you think
the church is going to be swayed by this at all?
S5 (44:13):
Only those with a glaring lack of biblical discernment. Unfortunately,
we will see what percentage of the church that is. Janet.
S1 (44:22):
Yeah, exactly. These are the times in which we live.
So absolutely fabulous conversation. I cannot thank you enough. I
look forward to our next one. In the meantime, friends,
can I draw you to the video course when someone
you love is gay? Fabulous. It's all there at Joe Dallas.com. Pastors.
The challenge that monthly phone call with pastors literally around
the world, and then the 18 part video series that
(44:43):
really teaches you how to articulate this issue and deal
with some of the questions it raises. Joe, thank you
so much. Thank you friends. We'll see you next time.
Hi friend, thank you so much for downloading this podcast
and I truly hope you hear something that edifies encourage, equips, enlightens,
and then gets you out there in the marketplace of ideas.
But before you go, I want to tell you about
this month's truth tool. It's called Have You Ever Wondered?
And I absolutely love this topic because if you're like me,
going out into the night sky and looking up and
seeing a million stars, don't you just stop and think
(00:22):
about God? And are you not in a moment of
awe and wonder or looking out over the vast expanse
of an ocean and you start thinking, what is man,
that thou art mindful of him? And it makes you
wonder about the magnificence of God? I think that sense
of wonder was put there on purpose, and this wonderful
book includes a composite of multiple authors who have written
(00:42):
from their perspective as a scientist, or a historian, or
a mathematician or an artist, on why they all have
this sense of awe through the work that they do.
In other words, the heavens declare the glory. And as
it tells us in Romans, we are really without excuse
because his handiwork is everywhere. And this book invites you
to walk through the chapters written by people who all
(01:03):
have a sense of awe and wonder when it comes
to God through their various disciplines in life. It's an
amazing book and it's yours. For a gift of any amount,
just call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58. Ask
for a copy of Have You Ever Wondered? And we'll
send it right off to you as my way of
saying thank you, because we are listener supported radio. Or
you can go online to in the market with Janet Parshall.
(01:26):
When you're also on the website, consider becoming a partial partner.
Those are people who give every single month at a
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in the market with Janet parshall.org consider becoming a partial
(01:46):
partner or asking for this month's truth tool. Have you
ever wondered? And now please enjoy the broadcast.
S2 (01:53):
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3 (01:55):
The conference was over. The president won a of.
S4 (01:58):
The Americans worshiping government over God.
S3 (02:00):
Extremely rare safety move by a major.
S4 (02:03):
17 years the Palestinians and Israelis negotiated.
S3 (02:21):
Hi friends.
S1 (02:22):
Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. So glad
we're going to spend the hour together. And you need
to bring your thinking cap, because we're going to have
a 400 level conversation and we're going to think like Bereans. Now,
let me go back to that passage in acts so
amazing that the Bereans weren't checking out the pagans of
the day. They were fact checking. Paul. And the mandate
(02:42):
is for you and me to do that as well.
To be people who test all things, even when people
are speaking what you think is theology or religiosity, more
to the point, or even worse, they're purporting to be
speaking Christianity. Okay, wonderful. In this country we have the
liberty to do that. But we need to understand that
(03:03):
just because someone has the liberty to say it doesn't
make it right and true and good. And the directive
is regardless of where you live on planet Earth, is
to test all things. So that's what we're going to
do this hour. There's a brand new book out that
is written by a homosexual. He happens to be a
person who's got an appearance on TikTok, and he has
written before, by the way, and this book will be
(03:24):
heralded by all of the secular media that already has
a particularly concretized worldview that is anti-Christian and pro LGBTQ.
It's not real hard to get on these programs, by
the way, if you decide that you're in animus against Christianity,
trust me, you'll get called up in two shakes of
a lamb's tail. If you are pro gay rights, particularly
in the month of June, you're going to get bought
(03:46):
on television. So you're going to hear a lot of
conversations about this book. But what I want to do is, again,
not interested in going after the author by any stretch
of the imagination. I've met the author. In fact, I
invited the author to come and participate in a debate
that I hosted as well. But I have to tell
you that when the Bible commands us to test all things,
I want to know the things that are being said
in this book, whether they or not, whether or not
(04:07):
they come into alignment with what Dwight Moody called the
straight stick of truth. Is this a misinterpretation of Scripture?
Is it eisegesis? Which means you are applying to the
scriptures something that's not there, or exegesis where you're letting
the passage explain itself? Are you misinterpreting Scripture to make
it culturally comfortable, and to advance a particular political worldview
(04:29):
or ideology that you might have? And again, all of
this is right and good, and I think demanding of
the believer today, particularly in these latter days, where we
have to stop and say, particularly if we're going to
go to the marketplace of ideas and please tell me
you're going there. If we're going to go there on
a regular basis and you hear someone talk about being
queer and Christian, well, you're going to have to find
out if there's a contradiction there or if the title
(04:51):
of the book is Brandon Robertson writes it, Queer and
Christian reclaiming the Bible, our faith and our place at
the table. Now there's an old saying that says you
can't tell a book by its cover. In this case,
I would say you can tell a book by its cover,
because your top endorsement is from Don lemon. Used to
be on CNN, openly homosexual. The foreword is written by
Bishop Gene Robinson, who was a former Episcopal Anglican priest,
(05:13):
homosexual activist. And then you open on the inside and
you've got a beginning of the book, a reflective moment
from none other than John Dominic Crossan. Why is that important? Well,
let me tell you who John Dominic Crossan is. Now,
we haven't gotten to the content of the book. These
are just the names that come jumping out of the
book immediately. John Dominic Crossan, by the way, is someone who, uh,
(05:34):
was a priest. He's an Irish American historian of early Christianity.
He was a prominent member of something called the Jesus Seminar.
What was the Jesus Seminar? Well, it had its heyday
not too long ago where a bunch of people got
around together in a circle, figuratively speaking, although they may
have said literally in a circle, I don't know. But
here's what they did do, which is about as, um, well,
(05:57):
antiquated if not theologically suspect as it gets. They literally
would look at the scriptures and they would vote using
colored beads on what parts of the scripture were right
and which parts weren't. So for example, if you voted
with a red bead, that was way the voter believing
that Jesus did say the passage quoted, and something very
much like the passage. If, however, you voted with a
(06:19):
pink bead, it indicated that the voter believed that Jesus
probably said something kind of like that in the passage. Oh,
but if you voted with a gray bead indicated the
voter believed. Jesus didn't say the passage, but it contains
Jesus's ideas. That's how you voted. Now, if you're going
to roll colored stones on the ground and determine that's
what you think constitutes the authority, the power, and the
(06:39):
historicity of Scripture, I have a problem right out of
the gate, but I also have a problem when you
start looking at the dedication page. And again, we haven't
even gotten to the substance yet. And I'm going to
read the dedication, and then I'm going to introduce my
guests because we're going to spend this hour. Both of
us have read this book, by the way, cover to cover,
and we're going to take a look at what the
Bible says versus the ideas that are being posited in
this book. So the dedication page says this, dedicated to
(07:02):
all the queer people who have ever been on the
receiving end of bigotry and abuse at the hands of
someone holding a Bible. May this book help you to
reclaim your power and know deep in your bones that
you are beloved by God. Italics. Just as you are.
Joe Dallas is with us. Author, speaker, counselor who speaks nationwide.
He directs a biblical counseling ministry for those dealing with
(07:23):
sexual and relational problems and with their families as well.
He is the founder of Genesis Biblical Solutions in Tustin, California.
He's written several books on human sexuality from a Christian perspective,
including The Best Selling Desires in Conflict and the Gay gospel.
His articles have been in Christianity Today and the Journal
of Psychology and Christianity, and you can follow him because
he blogs regularly at Joe Dallas.com. He has a fabulous
(07:46):
video teaching series. He has a once a month phone
call with pastors around the globe who call and ask, Joe,
how do I answer this? Because these questions are coming
up in my church. We're going to tell you about
all of that, give you a ton of resources. But Joe, first,
thank you. Thank you for putting in the sweat equity.
I didn't pay you to do it, so you just
did it out of your own compassion and I appreciate
it to read the book. So thank you. But I
really thought that this first statement is a perfect encapsulation
(08:09):
because we all sang the song in Sunday School. Jesus
loves me. This, I know for the Bible tells me so.
So if we take the sentence and we say that
you are beloved by God just as you are, period,
and we leave it there, it's well, it's partly true.
It's typical of what Satan does, isn't it? He takes
a little bit of truth and then tries to wrongly
(08:30):
contextualize it and turns it into a whole lie. So
Jesus loves you just as you are. I am a
hot mess. In fact, let me quote Newton instead I
am a great sinner in need of a great Savior.
Thank you God, for not leaving me just where I was.
So talk to me about that.
S5 (08:47):
Well, Janet, this all kind of reminds me of what
I used to do when I was a boy. If
my dad or mom said no to me, I would say, well,
if you loved me, you would. And I think that's
the mentality we're bringing into this discussion. If he loves
me just as I am, then I get to stay
just as I am.
S1 (09:10):
And I'm not sure that that Scripture gives us the
allowance to say that you stay just as you are.
In fact, let me just have one verse for you
to think on as we go to break. If we're
to stay just as we are, then why are we
being challenged to constantly being conformed and transformed in the
image of Christ? Why are we told by Paul to
grow up in him? Why are we told to get
off a diet of milk and move to meet? All
(09:31):
of that seems to be progress and growth. But hey,
just something to think about. We're just getting started. Joe Dallas,
our guest. We're going to take a look at this
new book and take a look at the straight stick
of truth and see if there's any crooked ideas there
back after this. So many in our culture today are
(09:57):
spiritually curious but hesitant about religion. That's why I've chosen.
Have you ever wondered, is this month's truth to explore
how everyday experiences might be the signpost pointing to deeper
biblical truths? As for your copy of have you ever
wondered when you give a gift of any amount to
in the market, call 877. 58. That's eight 7758 or
go to in the market with Janet Parshall.
S3 (10:21):
So there's a new book out. It's called Queer.
S1 (10:23):
And Christian Reclaiming the Bible Our Faith and Our Place
at the table. So it's out there in the marketplace
of ideas and being good Bereans. We're going to test
all things. And I want to know whether or not
the things that Brandon Roberts and the author of the
book writes about in this book do, in fact, come
into alignment with Scripture, or is he convoluting and twisting
Scripture so that he comes with a predetermined outcome. That's
(10:46):
what we're going to talk about this hour. Joe Dallas
is with us. He and I have both read the book.
And again, Joe heads a counseling ministry for people who
have struggled in this area, as he did once upon
a time in his own life. So he is the
perfect apologist for this conversation. Let me go back if
I can, because I think this is worthy of a
little bit more discussion, because I think for a lot
of believers, here's where they get stuck in the quagmire. Well,
they know that we're Christians by our love. God so
(11:07):
loved the world that he gave his only begotten son.
God loves me an indisputable, absolute, immutable truth, comma. And
here's where the departure in the road takes place, just
as you are now. Billy Graham had that hymn that
people would sing as they came forward after the altar call,
just as I am. But the idea wasn't coming forward.
It was then going forward with Jesus Christ not staying
(11:30):
in your sin. Talk to me about that.
S5 (11:32):
Yeah, we need to graduate in our Hymnology Janet. We
start with just as I am, but pretty soon thereafter
we need to start singing have thine own way, Lord. Yes.
I mean, we look, if we couldn't come just as
we were, then we'd never make it, would we? Just
like you said. I mean, I I won't call myself
a hot mess. I'm a mess. It's hot. Hasn't applied
(11:54):
to me in about 200 years. But I'll take the
mess part. But, uh, you know, the whole idea of
if God loves us just as we are, we must
therefore be just fine, just as we are is sheer nonsense.
And you quoted the verse yourself which lays that whole
myth to rest. If if it was just that God
so loved the world and that's all it said, no problem.
(12:15):
But he said, God so loved the world that he
gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes on him
should not perish. What does that mean? We're going to perish.
God loves us, but without salvation we're going to perish.
So clearly God loving us does not mean we are
allowed to stay just as we are. We first need
to be born again. Jesus said, that's the essential. And
(12:36):
then if we name the name of Christ, we've got
a mandate to depart from iniquity. And guess what? We
don't get to define for ourselves what iniquity is, which
I believe is the biggest error in the book we're
talking about today. Brandon has basically said we can subjectively
determine what is wrong, rather than rely on the Bible
(12:57):
for an objective standard.
S1 (12:59):
Exactly right. So as a quick overview, there are four
parts to the book. The first part is his story
more or less about coming out, being raised in a
trailer park in suburban Maryland and going to school and
then getting involved in activism, and it tells his story.
Then he goes to the second part, which is of
the most concern to me. And again, as I said,
(13:19):
I've met Brandon. He's a very nice person. This isn't
about the author himself by any stretch of the imagination.
It's the ideas. You know, when I play Wolf Audio
on Fridays, I always say, I'm not even going to
name the pastor or the denomination, but in fact, we're
going to just look at what the overflow of the
heart is. So I'm looking at the overflow of the
pen in this book, Reclaiming the Bible. Let's get biblical.
So what? There were so many statements that I found
(13:42):
rather stunning about all of this, and one of them
was the fact that there is no sexual ethic he
alleges in the scriptures at all. I found that to
be problematic. I could take off at least a half
a dozen immediately, where we're given directions about our sexual
ethic and behavior. Why is the statement that there is
no biblical sexual ethic erroneous?
S5 (14:05):
It's erroneous because it, first of all, claims that the
Bible is vague, where the Bible is very specific. Um,
the Bible is very specific in celebrating the fact that
God created human sexuality. God looked on Adam and Eve
in their raw, naked sexual selves and said, that's good.
And we know that when man fell. Virtually everything that
(14:28):
was good went bad. So we now have God given sexuality,
a great gift to be celebrated within a covenant for
the safety of both partners and for reproduction, and for
the creation of the family and the the population of
the world, and so forth. Um, but, uh, anybody claiming
(14:49):
the Bible doesn't have a sexual ethic has either not
read the Bible or is reading the Bible, um, with, with, uh,
blindfold because virtually every book in the New Testament, not
to mention most of the Old Testament books, mentions and
condemns sexual sin that right away tells you there is
such a thing as sexual behavior that is not God's will.
(15:09):
And the only form of sexual expression that's commended in
both testaments is a heterosexual covenant union of marriage between
a man and a woman. Now, in fairness, I want
to point out that that Robertson is very honest, at
least in in his assessment of the Bible. He does
make it very clear that he does not consider the
(15:31):
Bible to be the inerrant Word of God. In fact,
I'll quote him here. Quote I don't think that the
Bible is the inerrant Word of God, and therefore, I
also don't think all of the morality that we find
in the pages of the Bible is worthy of being followed.
End quote. Now I want to give the guy credit
for being honest about that, because most pro-gay theology books,
(15:53):
most books that try to basically rewrite the Bible claim
to come from a base of respecting the inerrant Word
of God as being the inerrant Word of God. Troy Perry,
Mel White certainly. Matthew Vines they claim to come from
a traditional conservative base, and they're just helping us. Other
traditionalists understand how we're misinterpreting the word of God. Robertson
(16:15):
takes it further and says, I don't want to just
reinterpret these verses. I also want to reinterpret the way
we're viewing the Bible. So at least as I said,
he's honest about that. But if that's the case, you're
kind of left wondering, well, by what standard do you judge,
right or wrong? And in his case, it's a very
subjective standard. All of that to say, Janet, if you
(16:36):
don't believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God,
if you don't believe that what it teaches about sexuality
is authoritative, then it's probably easier to say, gee, I
don't see any particular sexual ethic in the Bible because
I think you've already decided that the Bible is a
book you may use as you see fit, rather than
you being fit into what the Bible teaches.
S1 (16:59):
And forgive me if this seems simplistic, but it's the
way my mind works. Robertson is pursuing a PhD in
Biblical Studies as we speak. That, to me is like
saying I'm going to be a plumber, but I hate water.
Why would you even want to pursue a degree in
biblical studies if you don't think that the Bible is
the inerrant, transcendent, immutable word of God doesn't contain the
(17:20):
Word of God, is the Word of God. Now, obviously
we're going to do a flyover, but we want you
to get some of these ideas because they're going to
work their way into mainstream conversation. They're going to show
up in a conversation that you're going to have with somebody.
This book is going to be touted because it is
Anti-biblical Anti-christianity. That's all you have to do to get
a spotlight in the secular press. So when you hear
(17:40):
these ideas, are you prepared to give a reason for
the hope that resides within you? More to talk about
with Joe Dallas right after this. Joe Dallas is with us,
an author, a speaker, a counselor, speaks nationwide, directs a
biblical counseling ministry in Tustin, California. He's written several books
(18:03):
on human sexuality from a Christian perspective, including The Best
Selling Desires in Conflict and the Gay gospel. Question mark,
Joel joins us today because there's a brand new book out.
It'll get a lot of traction when you hear about it. Okay.
This is your opportunity to be a Berean and check
all things. So it's called Queer and Christian Reclaiming the Bible,
our faith and our place at the table. So you
(18:24):
just pointed out the fact that Brandon Robertson, the author,
has made the declaration that he really doesn't see the
Bible as the word of God. So when you do that,
it's like Plato. You can pull it and stretch it
any way you want to to mean anything you want.
So for an example, before I go to the example,
let me just pull back a little bit and ask
a question I should have asked earlier, Joe, which is
you've read every book that's out there, you've responded to
these in speeches and in your writing as well. But
(18:46):
you say that somehow this book is different. Tell me why.
S5 (18:49):
This is different. Essentially, in the fact that the author
is not pretending to believe that the Bible is inerrant,
where most of the authors do make that claim. So
there's a difference, um, between between moving an ancient landmark,
which is what most of the pro-gay theology books do,
(19:10):
versus removing the landmark altogether. Robertson wants to remove it.
And yet, ironically, Janet, just like you were saying, if
the Bible is not inerrant and authority, why the heck
works so hard to make it say what you want
it to say that there is some kind of a
contradiction there.
S1 (19:29):
I think it's a way of saying, see, you're accepted
just the way we are. There is no moral ethical.
More to the point, biblical prohibition to engaging in same
sex sexual activity. And I'm going to prove why I'm right. Now,
that's a false premise when you think about it. Because
if you start by proof, texting a book you don't
even believe in, it's a fallacious argument right out of
the gate. So let me give you an example. So
(19:50):
Adam and Eve, male and female, he created them both.
He makes the declaration that Genesis one and two are poems,
not literal historical accounts. And the emphasis I'm reading directly
from his book, and the emphasis is on the need
for humans to be in relationship with one another, not
on the gender of those relationships. From where I'm sitting,
that's kind of missing the story by 150,000 miles. Talk
(20:10):
to me about this.
S5 (20:11):
You could not read the Genesis account and come to
that conclusion unless you have already decided you wanted to
come to that conclusion, because what God specifically said he
provided for Adam in looking at his need for companionship
was a woman, God said it's not good for him
to be alone. This is the problem and therefore this
(20:35):
is the solution. So to claim that there is some
even indicator that, oh, any old person of any old
sex will do contradicts exactly what God said when he said,
I have a solution and I know what I'm doing.
Here is the solution. So on the one hand, as
a man who himself wrestled with homosexuality, I can understand
(20:57):
how deeply ingrained it is. I can understand how you
might feel like, hey, if that doesn't feel natural to me,
shouldn't I have a partnership with what feels natural to me?
And while I can understand that reasoning, it doesn't hold
up in light of Scripture which says we have a creator.
In the beginning, God created the creator in his wisdom,
(21:17):
created a solution to the need for human companionship of
the most intimate kind. And that's the solution. Now, if
you want to reject the Bible, you may, but you
cannot with intellectual integrity say that it doesn't say what
it so clearly says.
S1 (21:31):
Excellent. Thank you and so much more there. By the way,
what we're doing is we're doing a quick flyover of
what are often referred to in the homosexual activist community
as clobber passages. In other words, this is beating you
over the head with what the scriptures have to say.
And so what I think Robertson is trying to do
here is unpack them so that they fit in his worldview.
And the question, the transcendent question is, is he right
(21:52):
or wrong? So let's go to Sodom and Gomorrah. We
have discussed this before. This is an interesting twist. I
would have to say that this radical redefinition of the
story of Sodom and Gomorrah is probably maybe 15, maybe
20 years max. It's a rather new iteration of this
that it really wasn't about sexual sin. That's not why
God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. It was about inhospitality. So
talk to me about this.
S5 (22:13):
Well, the the what I would call outright silliness of
that is the severity of lot's offer. Um, when when
he was saying, oh, don't be inhospitable, I'll give you
my daughters.
S1 (22:23):
Right, right.
S5 (22:23):
Where in the world did that come from? I mean, obviously,
what these men were going to, what they were proposing
to do, um, was, was far beyond inhospitality. It was
an act of extreme violence. And I so I think
that's that's like saying, you know, so and so murdered. So,
(22:44):
you know, another person and the reason that was a
sin was, well, it was rude. What the heck? You
know this. So no, I think, uh, in fact, the
first time I heard that interpretation, I thought, well, I
guess I agree that was rather inhospitable, but, uh, really,
it's much darker than that. And I think a clear
reading of it says the men gathered around with the
(23:05):
intent to rape, um, lots of visitors and then lot himself.
And to minimize that by saying the sin of Sodom
was Inhospitality is, I think, again, a minimizing of a
terrible act that they proposed.
S1 (23:21):
Exactly. Robertson says that Ezekiel tells us that the reason
God destroyed the city was their inhospitality. He writes they
sought to rape and kill foreigners. They were xenophobes, not gay.
Any defense for that?
S5 (23:34):
Okay, now I have never before reading this I never
even saw the word xenophobe attached to the Sodom account. Um,
and that to me, really does seem like an indirect
swing at those of us who believe that the borders
of our country ought to be protected, that somehow makes
us sodomites. Right. But I, I do think, um, you know,
in fairness, Ezekiel did clarify something that I do believe,
(23:57):
which is that Sodom was not destroyed just because of homosexuality. Uh,
the word inhospitality is not there as much as a
lack of concern for the poor and for God. And
Ezekiel said they did commit abominations before me. That's all
covered in Genesis.
S1 (24:14):
Yeah, exactly. I can tell this hour is going to
go far too quickly. Joe, I'm so glad you come
and visit on a regular basis, because we'll have to
pick this up because I think this is going to
have a lot of cultural conversations. Also, when we come back, Joe,
I want to talk about some of your resources and
we'll go back into the book because you are invaluable
right now in the midst of this cultural conversation. And
I want to talk about some videos. I want to
(24:35):
talk about your pastor's meetings. I want to talk about resources.
Here's something you can chew on friends, as we go
to break Joe Dallas, that's his website. It's his name.
I love it when people do that. Joe dallas.com. Hang
on to that. It's also on the info page. We'll
tell you what you can find there right after this.
(24:57):
We live in a culture that's infatuated with the latest fads,
but Ephesians 415 calls for us to be stable, no
longer infants, Paul said, tossed about by the waves and
carried around by every wind of teaching on in the market.
We're exposing current trends and finding our balance by standing
on the solid foundation of God's Word to get exclusive
behind the scenes information and benefits, become a partial partner.
Call 877 Janet, 58, or go online to in the
(25:20):
market with Janet Parshall. We're visiting with Joe Dallas. He's
an author, a speaker, and a counselor who speaks nationwide.
He directs a wonderful ministry called Genesis Biblical Solutions in Tustin, California.
He helps people who struggle with sexual and relational problems
and their families as well. He's a prolific author. He's
written multiple books on human sexuality from a biblical perspective.
(25:43):
He blogs daily Joe Dallas.com or Joe Dallas online. But
if you can go to Joe Dallas.com, you're going to
find a ton of resources, including a video course entitled
When Someone You Love is Gay. Joe, talk to me
about this.
S5 (25:57):
Yeah, Janet, I put that together because so many parents
call our offices regularly saying, what do I do now?
Let me clarify this. I've been counseling for 38 years,
men and women who want to overcome homosexuality. But for
every man or woman who is dealing with that, there
are parents. And so many parents have called and said,
I'm glad there's help available for for the person. But
(26:20):
what about for us? And in many cases, of course,
parents have sons or daughters who are just saying, I'm
openly gay. This is how it is. So this course
walks them through what to expect, what to say, what
not to say, what boundaries to set and, uh, what
how to deal with your own grief, your own anger,
your own fears. And then, of course, there's sort of
(26:42):
like sample dialogues included as well, to help people understand
better how to have the conversation that you need to have.
So it's an equipping video series for parents who've had
sons or daughters come out to them. How do they,
as Christians, respond?
S1 (26:56):
Now I have a direct link right on my info page,
right to the video series. But again, Joe Dallas.com it
is just steeped with information. But if you're interested in
going directly to the video series, it's there as well.
I would be remiss because I am thrilled that you're
doing this, and I've been so excited to see how
the Lord just enlarges what's happening. Talk to me about
the monthly challenge for pastors.
S5 (27:17):
Oh, I've loved that, Janet. Yeah. Thank you for asking. Uh,
once a month, I'm meeting in a zoom meeting for
pastors from around the country and really in, in, uh,
around the world. Really? Um, we've got over 550 now, and, uh,
we talk about the different ministry challenges that come up
every month. We do a lesson on a new issue,
(27:38):
just like, for example, um, this past month, in May, uh,
we did a session on how do you develop ministry
in your own church to people who are struggling with homosexuality?
This month, we'll be talking about how do you respond
to pro transgender theology? We're talking about pro-gay theology, you
and I today. But there's also a growing body of
(27:58):
work that calls itself pro transgender theology, in which Scripture
is reinterpreted to legitimize transitioning and to basically deconstruct the
idea of there being only two genders. So we try
to hit on different ministry topics that will be of
interest to pastors who are trying to serve their congregations
and speak responsibly on this topic.
S1 (28:21):
Again, everything's at Joe Dallas.com the challenge for pastors, right
on the top of the page. Pastors, if you're not
a part of this, you're really missing something. So I
encourage you to do that again. There's a video series
when you are a parent of someone who's struggling in
this area. Joe does a wonderful job of teaching parents
how to respond. And then you've got another video series two.
In fact, you've got a lot of videos, Joe, for
which I'm very, very thankful. But you've also got one
(28:43):
where it's a whole series of walking through this whole
quasi theology and questions about sexuality. Talk to me about that.
S5 (28:51):
Yes. And you were gracious enough to endorse that, which
I sure appreciate, Janet, but that's called pastor. What about LGBTQ?
And that's an 18 part video series for pastors and
ministry leaders, in which we talk about all of the
different ways we need to approach this in our churches.
We need to develop in-house policies so that it's clear
(29:12):
to people where we stand and how we we express
and in some cases even enforce our positions. How we
counsel the different people affected by this parents strugglers, how
we teach our youth. There's a section in there on
how to talk to our young people about the issue.
There are sections in there about how we respond to
pro-gay theology, just like you and I are doing today, Janet.
(29:33):
And then how we counsel individually people who are transgender,
a woman who is married to a man who comes
out as gay, a person who struggles with homosexuality. So
it's basically set to equip pastors and ministry leaders to
be more able to more fully able to address the
ministry challenges that this subject brings up. And there are
(29:55):
so many.
S1 (29:56):
Oh, that's just exactly what I was going to say.
But let me just say, as a sister in the Lord,
I'm so thankful that you were obedient to the prompting
of the Holy Spirit to do this. This takes a
lot of time and energy to put these resources together,
but the fact that we're having a conversation about a
book that's going to show up on all the major
talk shows probably fly to the top of the New
York Times best selling list. It's easy. It's easy to
do that, by the way. Deny Christ and you know
(30:17):
the kingdom is yours right here on earth. It happens
all the time. So we need resources like the ones
you just described more than ever before. So thank you
so very much for doing that. Especially when books like
this are going to create more confusing conversations and people
are going to be looking for answers. So on that note,
let me go back to queer and Christian reclaiming the Bible,
our Faith and Our place at the table, new book
by Brandon Robertson, who, uh, is getting his PhD in
(30:41):
biblical studies. But he's an author and he's an activist. Um,
he was part of President Obama's, uh, evangelicals for Marriage Equality,
and that was before Obergefell was handed down. So that
turned out to be unnecessary because the Supreme Court did it.
Wanted to do anyway. At least we don't have the
Equality Act, but I digress. Let me go back. So
Brandon makes this statement. At this point in the book,
(31:01):
I've demonstrated that at the very least, the Bible has
no explicit, unambiguous condemnations of queer people or our lives
and love your response to that?
S5 (31:11):
Yes. He makes an interesting distinction there. Uh, Janet, he
he basically says the Bible says nothing about queer people.
And our love, as if to say the Bible may
condemn an act, but that has nothing to do with us, because,
first of all, the authors of the Bible didn't understand
sexuality the way we understand it today. And secondly, when
(31:34):
the Bible says, a man shall not lie with another man,
that's assuming that the sex between those men is exploitive.
So it doesn't condemn those of us who are in
gay loving relationships. Right? So he makes an interesting distinction
that is not made with any other sexual act. Janet.
Just for example, the Bible condemns adultery. There's no context
(31:54):
to that. There's no contingency to that. If a man
has a one night stand with a woman who is
not his wife, he's committed adultery. If a man falls
in love with a woman who is not his wife
and has sexual relations, he's committed adultery. Love doesn't change
the sin nature of the act itself. And this is
where Brandon very cleverly says the only homosexual sex condemned
(32:16):
in the Bible is impersonal or exploitive gay sex, which
has nothing to do with gay couples today.
S1 (32:24):
Yeah, well, and that's a torturous new angle that's taken
by gay activists on trying.
S5 (32:29):
To.
S1 (32:30):
Give liberty to your behavior in Scripture. Uh, I thought
I'd heard everything under the sun, I hadn't. This is
why I try to stay on top of these kinds
of conversations. There's a whole section on what he calls
the queer saints of Scripture, and I didn't have a
clue that Ruth and Naomi apparently were lesbians. Talk to
me about this again.
S5 (32:49):
Um, you've really got to stretch things. Not only stretch them,
distort them to come to the conclusion that if two
people loved each other, they must have been having sex. Janet,
I love a lot of people. Heaven's sakes, I love
my dog. So this, you know, to to even imply
that a depth of love automatically means there must have
(33:11):
been a sexual relationship, is to distort the whole idea
that there is any form of love that is not sexual.
Ruth and Naomi loved each other very much that we know,
and that's all we know. There is nothing indicating that
the two of them had a sexual relationship. In fact, Janet,
let's remember the Bible is not shy when it talks
about sex. That's right. That the sex was right or wrong.
(33:34):
The Bible says they lay with each other. They knew
each other. You do not see that in any description
of behavior between Ruth and Naomi. You see a deep
love and a deep commitment to each other's well-being. And
that's it. So if we are going to imply that
if somebody loves and cares for the well-being of another person,
they must be having sex. We're basically sexualizing every friendship
(33:57):
that ever existed, which again, is is ludicrous.
S1 (34:00):
And, you know, I was thinking also about this to Joe.
It would really help us if we could read the
scriptures through Middle Eastern eyes, wouldn't it? So we could
understand what the family makeup was like and why there
would be this intense devotion and protection of each other
given the circumstances that they had gone through. Right. But
to say the word this is a grotesque, postmodern definition
(34:20):
and cheapening of the word love, that every time the
word love is used and it's replicated in several of
the other, quote, gay saints of Scripture that Branden talks
about every time it's love, there's an implication and an
application in his mind of sexual behavior. That's a quantum leap,
that's unjustifiable, and that's subjective, completely.
S5 (34:39):
Not only subjective. I first of all, I don't mean
to slam the guy because I've watched videos of him
and I find him to be very likable in the
way he presents, but I think it's a little weird
and quirky to jump into a sexual interpretation of every deep,
loving relationship. Yeah. That to me shows something is really
off balance there.
S1 (34:58):
Exactly. And not only that, but when you're using as
your expert witnesses, he quotes a queer Bible scholar didn't
know there was such a thing. Did your friends? Now
you do. And apparently this woman writes that the relationship
between these three characters, Boaz, Ruth and Naomi is, quote,
similar to the ways in which queer people of today
create families. A bisexual man and two lesbians live together
with their biological child. A gay man is a sperm donor,
(35:20):
sperm donor for the lesbian couple, and as part of
the parenting for their child, three gay men living together
as lovers and family. For 20 years, a lesbian mother
and her lover lived two doors down from their lesbian
daughter and her lover. Wow, what a stretch. None of
that is there in Scripture by any stretch of the
imagination and again, worldview. It's an imposition of the queer
Bible scholars end quote worldview again, to turn something. Well,
(35:45):
it's if we were in Bible class, we would say
this is quintessential Eisegesis, is it not?
S5 (35:50):
Oh my gosh. Yeah. I mean, Brandon should be grateful
that there is no such thing as ghosts, because I
would hate to think of what the ghost of Ruth, Boaz,
and Naomi would be doing to that guy for the
way he has so distorted their relationship.
S1 (36:03):
Exactly. There are a couple of others I want to
touch on them lightly. But again, Jill, we don't have
to go through the whole book today because I get
to talk with you on a regular basis so we
can save some for the future. But there are other
points in here that I want to discover. Joe Dallas
is with us. So thankful for his work. I've known
Joe not for years, but for decades. He is as
straight as an arrow, no pun intended. But I mean
theologically he is right on the money. He is the
(36:26):
perfect embodiment of truth in love. That's why I love
talking to him. He absolutely knows how to counsel people
in a Christ like, loving fashion, but he never, ever
retreats from the truth. It's why I'm so happy to
call him my friend back after this. So what were
(36:56):
the Bereans called to do? They were called to test
all things, and particularly when in the marketplace of ideas,
somebody is espousing what they allege to be biblical or
a representation of Christianity. A it has my attention, and
b it better have my attention, because that's where the
testing all things comes in. So when a book comes
out and it says queer and Christian gets my attention.
(37:18):
Subtitle Reclaiming the Bible. Well, there's your first situation. Our
faith and our place at the table. Brandon Robertson is
the author. Again. As I said, I've met Brandon and
asked him to actually participate in a panel discussion that
I moderated at one point in time. Wonderful young man.
But I think he's got some very erroneous ideas in here.
And when you start out with the declaration, as he
(37:40):
does in his book, that he really doesn't believe the
Bible is inerrant, you really wonder why all the work?
And he says this was one of the most difficult
books he's ever had to write. Why would you bother
to tear down a book you don't even believe in anyway?
You could just wave a wand and say, it's all
stuff that I don't believe in, but I think it
isn't written for that purpose. I think it's really to
try to encourage, perhaps even Bible believing Christians who struggle
(38:03):
with same sex attraction, that it's okay. God's given you permission.
Did God say it's an old lie? But boy, is
it effective and it's still being used. So I want
to touch on this one simply because there's so much
in this book, Joe, but I think it was the
one about Joseph that really got my attention. Joseph's magic dress.
Now in the book, this was so interesting because he
(38:24):
said the term for the garment. Then he gives the
Hebrew term for the garment that Joseph was given by
his dad, the coat of many colors, which traditionally meant
something like a satin garment with long sleeves that was, quote,
specifically designed to be worn by highborn women. In other words,
this was not a garment typically worn by a man,
which gives context to why Joseph's brothers mock Joseph and
(38:44):
his satin gown. Now, you know, don't let the facts
get in the way. But you know, if you're really
into that, you got to understand that satin came out
of China under the Northern Song dynasty between 960 and
1127 A.D., a little bit after Joseph's time. So I'm
pretty sure being Bedouins and they were nomadic that the
goat was made out of wool. But hey, that's just me.
(39:07):
So Saturn wasn't even around when Joseph was there. But
the intimation here is that he's trans. Okay. He puts
this coat on. He's different than his brothers. And the
animus toward the brothers is that he's different, in fact,
so different that he's even dressed different from the brothers. Again,
this breaks my heart at its core because talk about
missing the story. He's a type for Christ. There's so
(39:28):
much that goes on in Joseph's story that's rich and
deep and powerful and important. Crying when his brothers come
back to him again, being falsely accused and imprisoned for
three years. I mean so much. And you get hung
up on the coat being satin really designed for women
if you think satin was around in the BC era.
So your thoughts.
S5 (39:46):
I think you have to again want to find something
and look for it until you hallucinate and see it.
To come up with an interpretation like that. I'm with you, Janet.
I and I've kept up on pro-gay theology for decades now.
That was a new one to me. And I think
the only, the only thing we would encourage people to
(40:08):
do is look for yourself at that story, read the
story and tell me if you would come to that conclusion.
Very clearly. Joseph's brothers hated him because he was so
favored by their father and that was it. There is
nothing to indicate he had any sort of gender confusion.
As a matter of fact, I'm convinced that at least
part of the reason he had to flee, um, when
(40:31):
his master's wife tried to seduce him was because he
knew he was in danger of committing a gross error
on his own part. You'll notice that when he ran
away from her, uh, he did not say. You know,
I find it intolerable that that, uh, that I could
ever be with a woman. What he said was, how
can I do this great sin? Meaning I'm tempted, and
you're tempting, but I'm not going to do it, which
(40:51):
is not what a transgender person would say in a
situation like that. Again. Janet. No, No honest person would
look at that account and come to that conclusion unless
they were trying to torture it to make it say
what they wanted it to say.
S1 (41:04):
Exactly. Let me do. And again, I want to thank
you in advance for our future conversations, because there's so
much here, and I think this is worthy of unpacking.
But I do want to touch on this one. So
I'm writing reading directly from the book. This may come
as a surprise to many, but the Jesus Christ of
the Gospels is undeniably queer. This isn't some liberal rereading
of the gay agenda onto Jesus either. From a historical perspective,
(41:25):
Jesus Christ was queer again. When I'm using the word queer,
excuse me in this context, I am referring to any
way that Jesus transgressed sexual and gender assumptions in his
culture and era. Jesus was a young Jewish man in
the first century, and there were very clear exceptions for
how a young Jewish man should express his gender and
engage sexually. Talk to me about that.
S5 (41:49):
I don't even know where to start with that, Janet.
It it is. It is so many different shades of blasphemy.
I could write a book on that alone. 50 Shades
of Blasphemy. Yes it is. Yeah, it it shows no respect,
even if you don't believe in the Bible. To suggest
that because Jesus was different. I'll buy that. He was different. Well,
(42:12):
this is God incarnate who was not, uh, not bound
by any sin in his life. And he called a
spade a spade. But to even suggest that somehow that
translates into homosexuality is, uh, really to, uh, not not
only impose, it's to basically violate the Scripture itself. And
(42:34):
there I, I almost felt like Robertson was going from
error into an aggressive form of blasphemy to suggest such
a thing, not unlike what, um, Martin Scorsese did way
back in 88 when he released the film, uh, The
Last Temptation of Christ, indicating that Jesus had a sexual
(42:55):
relationship with Mary Magdalene. Um, and in both cases, the
blasphemous aspect of it was, will we assume that because
he was human, he must have wanted to have sex
with somebody? And then, of course, it's convenient to assume
that he is gay and therefore, uh, he was what
we would call queer. But again, I don't even know
where to begin in trying to describe what a gross
(43:17):
distortion that is and what a level of blasphemy it is,
he's taken blasphemy there to a whole new height.
S1 (43:23):
I agree, I agree, and again, when you don't let
the word be your guide, he knew no sin. You
know there's a stumbling stone for his theory right there.
But more importantly, if from Genesis to Revelation, the book
is about Jesus, if you don't believe in the book,
then you don't believe in the Jesus that is told
about in the book. And obviously the central character to
(43:44):
the Word of God is Jesus. So the ultimate argument
to unleash your sexual activity is to be able to
say that, look, even Jesus himself was queer. So and
then he goes on and he tells more horrific stories
about Jesus, and I agree, I think the reason that
one is so problematic for me is it really is
the working definition of blasphemy. And I'm sorry, but I
don't think Brother Paul would have been quiet about that.
(44:06):
And I don't think we should be either. Quick question
is this rapidly comes to a close. Do you think
the church is going to be swayed by this at all?
S5 (44:13):
Only those with a glaring lack of biblical discernment. Unfortunately,
we will see what percentage of the church that is. Janet.
S1 (44:22):
Yeah, exactly. These are the times in which we live.
So absolutely fabulous conversation. I cannot thank you enough. I
look forward to our next one. In the meantime, friends,
can I draw you to the video course when someone
you love is gay? Fabulous. It's all there at Joe Dallas.com. Pastors.
The challenge that monthly phone call with pastors literally around
the world, and then the 18 part video series that
(44:43):
really teaches you how to articulate this issue and deal
with some of the questions it raises. Joe, thank you
so much. Thank you friends. We'll see you next time.
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