June 11, 2025 • 44 mins
What do Israel-at-war, the Bible, the occult, and the music of Taylor Swift have in common? All involve supernatural encounters. They permeate the Bible, history, and contemporary life. Many are divine, good, and godly; others are demonic, evil, and satanic. Dr. James De Young will join us to discuss supernatural encounters, both divine and demonic.
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S1 (00:00):
Hi friend, thank you so much for downloading this podcast
and I truly hope you hear something that edifies encourage, equips, enlightens,
and then gets you out there in the marketplace of ideas.
But before you go, I want to tell you about
this month's truth tool. It's called Have You Ever Wondered?
And I absolutely love this topic because if you're like me,
going out into the night sky and looking up and
seeing a million stars, don't you just stop and think
(00:22):
about God? And are you not in a moment of
awe and wonder or looking out over the vast expanse
of an ocean and you start thinking, what is man,
that thou art mindful of him? And it makes you
wonder about the magnificence of God? I think that sense
of wonder was put there on purpose, and this wonderful
book includes a composite of multiple authors who have written
(00:42):
from their perspective as a scientist, or a historian, or
a mathematician or an artist, on why they all have
this sense of awe through the work that they do.
In other words, the heavens declare the glory. And as
it tells us in Romans, we are really without excuse
because his handiwork is everywhere. And this book invites you
to walk through the chapters written by people who all
(01:03):
have a sense of awe and wonder when it comes
to God through their various disciplines in life. It's an
amazing book and it's yours. For a gift of any amount,
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(01:24):
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(01:46):
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Have you ever wondered? And now please enjoy the broadcast.
S2 (01:54):
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3 (01:55):
The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4 (01:58):
Americans worshiping government over God.
S5 (02:00):
Extremely rare safety move by a major in 17 years.
S6 (02:04):
The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated.
S1 (02:21):
Hi, friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. Oh,
are we going to have a fascinating conversation? In fact,
I have to tell you right up front, there is
so much excellent information in the book we're going to
talk about. That will be the basis for a wellspring
of conversations on a topic that has everybody saved or
not interested. I'm just not going to get it done
(02:41):
in an hour. So I'm going to talk about some
of it. In the meantime, you're going to get another copy.
Just go to the website, figure out how you can
get it, pick up a copy for yourself. But this
is a marvelous book. Here's the title supernatural encounters divine
and demonic dreams, visions and prophecy. Past and present. And
this is about exposing the occult. See, I told you,
(03:03):
I have your presence right now. I got to tell you.
We know that Hollywood is interested in this. We know
that horror films, for example, are the number one genre
in film. What does that say about the human condition? Thanks,
but no thanks. But there is an interest. I also believe,
because God has placed eternity in our hearts, that we
all believe that there's something else, someone else, something beyond.
(03:25):
And then the Bible tells us, for those of us
who are followers of Christ and believe in the inerrancy
of His Word, that we should entertain strangers, well, because
we might be entertaining angels. So. And Ephesians remind us
that the battle is not against flesh and blood. Thank you, Lord,
that we can't see them with our little mortals minds.
We'd pass out cold, I'm quite sure. But that battle
is battle is being waged in the heavenlies, and our
(03:45):
great King is the victor. But I love it when
someone who understands the Word of God comes along and
teaches us, because it is a fascinating conversation, and I
think it does several things. Number one, it reminds us
to get dressed in the morning. You know that suit
of armor that's hanging in your closet? Yeah. You're supposed
to put that on every day. If you don't, good luck.
Because it's a battle out there. It's tough out there.
And so you and I need to suit up when
(04:05):
we get up and we go out. And so we
need to understand that this is real, not to be afraid.
Come on. Greater is he that is in us than
he that is in the world. But the reality of
this war is something that cannot be avoided or negated.
Doctor James DeYoung knows that he has been a professor
of New Testament at Western Seminary in Portland, Oregon for
years and years and years, retired in 2015. His most
(04:26):
recent works deal with eschatology. His articles have appeared in
Bibliotheca Sacra. Just gave my husband a renewal to that
for Christmas. It was his favorite Christmas present, by the way.
Master's Seminary Journal and Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society.
He has co-authored Beyond the Obvious, Discover the Deeper Meaning
of Scripture, and contributed to the evangelical Commentary on the Bible,
(04:47):
as well as the Gospels and the Scriptures of Israel.
His brand new book, and the one we just talked about,
has contributions from Tracy Pollan, his friend, and his son
James as well. It is a marvelous book filled with illustrations,
and boy, it caught my attention and I'm so glad
that I had an opportunity to talk to doctor DeYoung
years ago when he wrote a book that was a compassionate, eloquent,
(05:09):
biblical rebuttal of The Shack. And if you have not
heard that interview, if you've not read Doctor Deyoung's book
on that, you need to, because that thing was saturated
in heresy, and he really did a marvelous job of
breaking it all down. And I'm so thankful. So, James,
thank you very much for joining me again. We had
a memorable conversation in the past. I believe that this
will be the first of many conversations on this book,
(05:32):
because there's just too much to cover in an hour.
And I was going to ask you a question, but
I think there's a sneak peak in what I just said.
Because you are interested in eschatology, it seems to me
that conversations about supernatural encounters just follow suit from that.
Am I right or wrong?
S7 (05:48):
You're very much correct, Janet. Thank you so much for
having me today.
S1 (05:52):
Oh, it's a delight to have you here. So this
is an interesting topic. I remember years ago, Billy Graham
wrote a small little book about angels. I devoured that
book because he did a wonderful job of explaining angel ology.
And we know that the culture, when we let the
culture teach us theology and we shouldn't. They talk about
demons all the time, and then they also turn around
and they tell us that we should be worshiping angels.
(06:13):
You point out very clearly that that is not the case,
but you break this book up into several sections, which
I found absolutely fascinating. And you start most interestingly by this,
and I'm going to read the chapter. It's part one
imagining Supernatural Encounters in Israel at War. What an interesting
place to start a conversation about supernatural encounters. Why begin
(06:35):
with Israel?
S7 (06:36):
Well, uh, the history of how this book came to
pass is, uh, enlightening for myself and perhaps for your listeners.
I remember reading books about the occult and about supernatural
encounters in other sources. And one day I said to
(06:56):
my wife, I'm going to write a book about supernatural encounters.
And that took off in various directions, and I finally
finalized a particular direction I wanted to go. And so
that consumes the bulk of the book. And then I
thought of adding a couple other things that would contemporize
the biblical message. So that's how this book came to pass.
S1 (07:17):
That's so interesting. Now, having said that, it's interesting that
you would start with Israel. Why Israel?
S7 (07:24):
Well, uh, because when I started, uh, thinking about this book,
the recent events that had happened in Israel with the
attack of Hamas on October the 7th, 2023 was in
my mind. And, uh, I had been reading about supernatural
encounters all through Israel's history, especially of the evil one
(07:45):
that take place in the territory that we know as Gaza.
And I thought, you know, my son, who has a
great imagination and wants to write and has written some fiction,
he could contribute a contemporary fictional account of what happened
on that particular day and how it unfolded as two
(08:08):
children who had been whose parents had been killed by Hamas,
are delivered by God's supernatural agents, as my son called them.
And those are angels. And it took place near Mount Hermon,
which perhaps your listeners are acquainted with the fact that
that is associated with the place that fallen angels first
engaged to humanity. So anyway, that all came together in
(08:30):
different parts like that.
S1 (08:32):
Wow. Absolutely fascinating. You brought up your son. Talk about
the role that your son played in this book. And
Tracy as well.
S7 (08:38):
Well, uh, after thinking about how I wanted to write
my part. And I'll get back to that, uh, in
the format that I chose, I thought, you know, this
book needs to be contemporized so that people don't simply
read about the Bible supernatural encounters and think that God
no longer is encountering mankind, nor are demons any longer
(09:00):
doing that. And so I had made a friend, uh, Tracy,
who went into the occult in a very deep way
and spent several years there and explored all kinds of
ways to understand, uh, life and what that may have
to offer. And so I invited her to participate in
(09:22):
it that way and write part three, giving her personal
testimony of being involved in the occult and how to
be delivered from it.
S1 (09:30):
Let me stop you there if I can, James, because
you hear the music, let me pick it up exactly
at that point. So Tracy's very compelling story of getting
involved in this stuff is a part of the new
book that doctor DeYoung has written called Supernatural Encounters, and
his son also played an important role novelizing The beginning. Fabulous.
Back after this. Have you ever wondered why music moves
(09:57):
us so deeply? Or why beauty takes our breath away?
My Truth Tool this month is a thought provoking book
that explores those moments of wonder we all encounter. It's
called Have You ever Wondered? Consider how ordinary aspects of
life point to the extraordinary biblical truths. Ask for your
copy of. Have you ever wondered when you give a
gift of any amount to in the market, call 877
Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58 or go to in
(10:19):
the market with Janet Parshall. Fascinating topic. The supernatural. It
is real. And don't let the world teach you theology.
Thank you, Doctor Michael Easley, for reminding us of that
on a regular basis. Doctor James DeYoung is with us,
taught for years at the New Testament at Western Seminary, Portland, Oregon,
and he was a Prof of New Testament. Wouldn't you
(10:41):
love to have sat in his class? So Tracy's story
and by the way, James, you're taking this out and
you're going to turn that into, like, a standalone for
her story, are you not?
S7 (10:50):
Yes, I'm planning to. Already there is a booklet that
we've just published, uh, called Visions and Dreams. Uh, how? Basically,
Sophie Lin, that's her pen name. Uh, got involved in
the occult, got deeply involved. So much so that she
despaired of life and thought of suicide, and then repented
(11:11):
as she called out to God to save her. And
Jesus answered her prayer and entered into her life and
transformed her, made her into a new person in Christ.
And all of that is told in a short, beautifully
illustrated booklet that we're beginning to distribute.
S1 (11:27):
Excellent, excellent. And I can't wait for our friends to
get a copy of that as well. It'll be a
wonderful witnessing tool. Now, I don't want to avoid your son,
because I just want to encapsulate what he did again
at the beginning. He writes this wonderful. It's a little novella,
if I can put it that way, about using angels
to tell a story that ties back to what's happening
in Israel. And I'm so grateful for his contribution. Let
(11:49):
me just ask you a question. And this is not
the novel part. This is the reality part. Do you
think that there are angels involved in what's going on
in the Middle East right now?
S7 (11:57):
Oh of course. In fact, you notice I didn't hesitate
to answer that question.
S1 (12:02):
That's right.
S7 (12:03):
If nowhere else in Gaza and I did this in
an article for Prophecy Watchers magazine, I trace how that
the present war or conflict going on between Israel and
Hamas in Gaza is simply the modern counterpart of a
demonic power and influence in that area of Israel that
goes all the way back 2000 years or so before Christ,
(12:28):
and after that time, during the time of Moses, and
then the later time of under Joshua, when he was
commanded by God, to go in and conquer all of
the land of Israel. And he did much of that,
but failed to conquer certain parts in the North, and
then also along the Mediterranean Sea, which is the Gaza
(12:48):
Strip as we know it today. And Gaza is named
in the Old Testament as part of the inheritance that
went to Ham, Noah's son under Canaan and Israel under Joshua.
Israel failed to capture that area, and it has been
a hotbed of demonic activity and idolatry ever since. And
so it's not surprising that these kinds of things continue
(13:12):
to happen in history and even in the modern time now.
S1 (13:15):
Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. I mean, if
you just stop and you realize the importance that Israel
has played in the past, currently making headlines every day
and the role it will definitely play in the future,
you can't look at that without understanding that it has
to be surrounded by spiritual warfare.
S7 (13:30):
Yes. Wow. I even insert the incident of David fighting
Goliath because Goliath is from Gath and, um, is a
giant and an evident, uh, descendant, ultimately of the Nephilim
back in Genesis. And, uh, David's fight with Goliath, he
understood right away to be a spiritual struggle between his
(13:52):
God and his God, Jehovah, or Yahweh and the God
of Goliath. And, uh, so David saw it as a
spiritual battle. Right on. Even though the older fighters there
did not. And it was, uh, told in great length,
because it sets the stage for why David is qualified
to be the first king of Israel.
S1 (14:14):
Um, and there's a linkage, is there not, between Philistines
and Palestine?
S7 (14:20):
Yes, absolutely.
S1 (14:22):
Talk about that to our friends who don't understand that,
because I think, particularly with today's headlines, that's important to know.
S7 (14:28):
Well, uh, the Philistines are the people who lived along
that edge of the Mediterranean Sea and perhaps other parts. And, uh,
they give the name Palestine to the land that they occupied.
And so the modern counterpart of that is, uh. The
Palestinian effort in Israel. And so there's this connection all
(14:49):
the way back to ancient history. So the designated land
from a biblical standpoint is Canaan or Israel. And, uh,
the pagan identity is that with the Philistines or Palestine.
S1 (15:04):
Fascinating. All right. So in deference to time, let me
just talk about where you go to. A huge chunk
of the book, you call it supernatural encounters in the
Bible and in history from Genesis to Revelation and beyond.
And this is just the big chunk of the book
as well. It should be. And this is why I
have your number, and I'm going to track you down,
doctor DeYoung, because we're never going to get through all
(15:24):
of this in one conversation. And I want to move
through this slowly and thoughtfully, because there's a rich theology
in all of this. So let me just start with
the beginning. And it's I love the fact that God
doesn't tell us everything. I think he wants us to
be curious. More importantly, I think he wants us to
be hungry. If I can use the words of Paul Harvey,
that famous radio broadcaster, he wants us to get the
(15:45):
rest of the story. So we get this little sneak
peek that there is a rebellion in heaven, and we
know that this worship leader eventually becomes Satan, takes a
third of the angels and there is a rebellion. What
else can we glean? What else do we know we
don't want to add to or take away from Scripture?
But what do we need to know that is there
for our benefit?
S7 (16:05):
Well, I think we can make the conclusion that this
rebellion by Satan or Lucifer, as he was known then,
occurred before God ever created the world as we know it,
because all of a sudden he appears in the garden
as a fallen being and tempts Adam and Eve and
brings about through this temptation the fall of humanity. And
(16:28):
so this is the one of the greatest, uh, supernatural
encounters in the entire Bible because of the consequences. But
it's a demonic encounter, of course. And so all the
human race is plunged into evil. And we still experience
that today. The results of that fall.
S1 (16:44):
Yeah, 100%. I'm coming up to a break, but when
we come back, let me talk a little bit about
the Tower of Babel. I wonder how often people think
of that as part of the supernatural. And then I
do want to move to Abraham and Lot. And what
happens in the city of Sodom and Gomorrah, which is
so grotesquely in this postmodern world, misrepresented. It is a
(17:05):
fascinating book and is just chock full of good theology
and stories about the supernatural. And come to think of it,
just realize that we live in this three dimensional world.
It seems rich and full, does it not? But oh,
it's nothing compared to what is beyond. There is something beyond.
And that's why doctor DeYoung writes about supernatural encounters, both
divine and demonic, in his brand new book. We're going
(17:26):
to take a break and come right back. By the way,
if you're interested in a copy of this book, I
hope you are. Just go to In the Market with
Janet Parshall Org right below the description of the day.
There's a red box. It says program details and audio.
Clicking on it will take you to the information page,
and you can click on through to learn how to
get your copy back after this. We're visiting with Doctor
(17:53):
James DeYoung, who has been a professor of New Testament
at Western Seminary in Portland, Oregon for years and years
and years. He's a wonderful writer. His works have appeared
in Bibliotheca Sacra, master's Seminary Journal, the list goes on.
His brand new book is called Supernatural Encounters Divine and
Demonic Dreams, Vision and Prophecy, Past and Present. It's an
(18:14):
absolutely fascinating book. So I'm glad I'm going to do
this slowly because so many of these stories are just rich.
So take me to the Tower of Babel. And again, James,
I think because of the size of our audience and
to God be the glory, I don't want to presume
that everybody's at the same starting space scripturally, and for
a lot of people, they might not even know the
story of the Tower of Babel. So teach us.
S7 (18:33):
Well. The Tower of Babel is recorded in Genesis ten
and 11. It was the attempt of humanity after the
flood of humanity is represented by the descendants of Noah,
and he had three sons, and among them were Shem, Ham,
and Japheth. And the descendants of Ham especially turn out
(18:54):
to be evil in their orientation eventually, but at the
Tower of Babel, after mankind began to multiply again under
the descendants of Noah, they decide to build a tower
as it is described, and a city and to local
locally do this in a particular place, and I believe
that they were trying to represent or replicate what had
(19:18):
happened before the flood in the attempt to transgress into
God's realm, uh, uninvited, that is, they were trying to
bring heaven to earth in their own means and by
their evil ways. And so the Tower of Babel represents
a replication or a duplication of that event that caused
(19:38):
the flood in the first place. First place. So, uh,
as they're building the tower, God looks upon this as
an evil act. It is a direct failure to obey
his command, to disperse and multiply and fill the earth.
So God evaluated this as an evil act. So he, uh, sends, uh,
(20:00):
multiple languages among the builders so that they cannot understand, uh, their, their, uh,
aim and project. And all of humanity represented at that point, uh,
need to disperse, and they finally do so and, and
end up obeying God's command to fill the earth. So
(20:21):
God's evaluation of this was a very evil intent. And
by confusing their languages, the building of the tower had
to stop.
S1 (20:30):
No, let me linger here a little bit, because I
think there are some things worth ruminating on. Number one,
there's no survivors from the flood, save Noah and his
sons and their families. So one would have thought, being
an eyewitness to total global destruction, which will never happen again.
Thank you, Lord, for the sign of your covenant with
the rainbow that they would have said, now we know
how to live. He is the one true God. We'll
(20:51):
worship him always. We'll teach the generations to come, to
worship him always. There's that basic sin nature of man.
So even though humanity has been wiped out once again,
sin starts raising its ugly head. I think that says
something about the human condition and how desperate we are
for a savior, because they had a perfect opportunity to say, boy,
we're never going to do that again. And exactly the
(21:12):
opposite happens, which I think is so interesting. So this please.
S7 (21:16):
You know, after after enough time, we all forget God's graces.
And through successive generations, that story of salvation and deliverance
of the past becomes more and more faint and remote.
And we replicate and duplicate our evil rebellion against God
in subsequent generations.
S1 (21:36):
Such a good point, and such a reminder to stay
grounded in the word close to him, because all we
like sheep have gone astray. That's something that we can't
forget about the human condition and the story of Noah
and the flood and his sons is a perfect example.
Total annihilation saved Noah and his family, and yet sin
creeps its way back into the world again. It's just amazing.
So how do angels play in this story, James?
S7 (21:59):
Well, in that particular story, I'm not sure. Um, but
certainly in the subsequent events, uh, that happen in Genesis, uh,
they certainly do intervene. And, uh, the story of Sodom
and Gomorrah is a classic example of this, really on
an unprecedented scale, never before experienced and never since. The
(22:22):
biblical record of Sodom and Gomorrah starts in Genesis 13,
where it is noted in verse 13 that they had
an evil record alright already. And so in chapter 18,
three visitors come to Abraham, who's God's appointed, uh, person
for the subsequent generations that will eventually, eventually bring about
the nation of Israel. Uh, two of these visitors to
(22:46):
Abraham are angels, and one is Jesus Christ in a theophany. Theophany?
An appearance of God in the Old Testament. And, uh,
the angels are sent there to investigate whether or not
Sodom and Gomorrah are as evil as the report is,
has been. And, uh, they go off to Sodom and, uh,
(23:09):
they go to lot's house, who is a nephew of Abraham. And, uh,
while they're in there, the men of Sodom, men of Sodom,
encircle it and demand to have the two angels come
out to them who have appeared as men. And so
these angels, uh, uh, refused to, uh, lot refused to
(23:31):
allow them to leave the house and, and protect them.
And so the angels caused blindness upon, uh, the men
of Sodom, and they are forced to break off their
attempt to, uh, harm and to sexually, uh, violate the
two men who are really angels. And so the warned
(23:53):
destruction of Sodom takes place. And, uh, Abraham is deeply
concerned about this as he's foretold. And so he intercedes
on behalf of lot and others that may be in
Sodom and starts with 50 people. If there are 50
people that are righteous, he pleads that God would not
destroy them. And God says, yes, I will not destroy
(24:14):
it if there are 50 people there. And in the
middle of this discussion, uh, we are told one of
the basic principles of the entire Old Testament. Uh, will
not God, the judge of all the earth, do right.
And so he goes all the way down to ten people,
and there are not even ten people there. But God
still spare those who are righteous, namely lot and his family.
S1 (24:34):
Exactly, exactly. So for postmodern people who are reinventing the scriptures,
this has nothing to do with the act of being inhospitable,
by the way. Doctor James Young is with us. Fascinating book.
It's called Supernatural Encounters Divine and Demonic. It is chock
full of stories from Scripture back after this. Our team
(24:59):
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(25:20):
in the market with Janet Parshall Doctor James DeYoung is
with us. He has been professor of New Testament at
Western Seminary in Portland, Oregon for years and years and years.
His most recent works deal with eschatology. His articles have
appeared in Bibliotheca Sacra, master Seminary Journal, and the Journal
(25:40):
of the Evangelical Theological Society. He has co-authored Beyond the Obvious,
Discover the Deeper Meaning of Scripture, and contributed to the
Evangelical Commentary on the Bible and the Gospels and the
Scriptures of Israel. His newest book is called Supernatural Encounters
Divine and Demonic Dreams, Visions and Prophecy, Past and Present. James,
(26:02):
I was thinking during the break, the book is just
rich with you walking right through scripture with all of
these angelic manifestations, both demonic and divine. But let me
just pull back, pull over to the side of the
road and hit the stop for a minute. What is
the purpose of angels? What does the scripture. I'm going
to give you a cluster of questions here. What's the
purpose of angels? Is there a hierarchy in Scripture? Why
(26:22):
are there only to the best of my knowledge, two
angels whose names are named? So in other words, being
very careful with the word not wanting to add to
or take away from what does the Bible tell us
about angels?
S7 (26:35):
Well, I think, pardon me in answer to your first question.
According to Hebrews chapter one verse 14, angels are sent
forth to minister on behalf of us who are believers.
That's the primary, uh, challenge or commitment that angels have
during our age. They also reveal God's word is told
to us in the book of Galatians that the law
(26:58):
came from God through angels to Moses. So they mediated
the Old Covenant, and they continued to worship God day
and night for eternity. According to revelation chapters four and five.
So there are several purposes for angels. Uh, an additional
one is to reveal God's will to particular individuals along
(27:18):
the way. And so angels appeared to Abraham. They appeared
to Jacob. They appeared to other Old Testament persons. And
in the New Testament they appear to, uh, the apostles
at different, on different occasions and so forth.
S1 (27:34):
So in the verse in Hebrews it talks about entertaining angels.
There might be strangers, but they were unaware that they're angels.
That seems to me to suggest that we could see angels.
Is that right?
S7 (27:45):
Well, that's a verse from chapter 13 in, in at
the end of the book of Hebrews. And it's a
suggestion and a warning to us that we don't disparage
the fact that angels may appear to us today on
any particular occasion. Uh, just as they have in the past.
And so we should be aware of that fact and
(28:06):
not dismiss and think, uh, less of, uh, the possibility
of angels appearing today whether, uh, in the personhood of
what appears to us to be a real individuals or persons,
as well as in dreams and perhaps visions.
S8 (28:24):
Mhm. Mhm.
S1 (28:25):
Well, and if the Scripture tells us that he has
set his angels to keep watch over us, obviously they're
still actively participating in God's good and perfect will.
S7 (28:36):
Oh yes. And that's for believers. And another evil thing
that angels are doing today, according to Daniel ten and 11,
is to lead nations astray, to deceive them, to corrupt them, uh,
to put them in allegiance to Satan rather than to God.
And so that means, as a practical application, uh, we
can ask the question, what kind of angels are behind
(28:59):
the scenes operating in Washington, DC? So there's a conflict
going on all over the world, all the time, uh,
to take nations and companies and individuals down the path
of evil and, and therefore corrupt them. And on the
other hand, there's a conflict going on between them and
(29:19):
good angels. And as you said, two are named in
the Bible, uh, Michael and Gabriel. And they are put in, uh,
in the effort on behalf of God to prevent evil
from championing, from winning and so forth.
S8 (29:33):
Um.
S1 (29:34):
So when you said angels behind those nations that are
being pulled astray, etc., you mean fallen angels, or in
other word, for it would be demons, right?
S7 (29:43):
Yes. So they are an attempt of the evil forces, uh,
to corrupt them and destroy them and to put them
in allegiance to Satan rather than to doing God's will
in the earth.
S1 (29:54):
So if Hebrews gives us the sense that we can
see angels, therefore does it follow that we could also
unaware be seeing a demon?
S7 (30:04):
Yes, I've read reports of people who can testify to
that effect. I think Tracy says that in her testimony.
I read somewhere else from two other, people who were
formerly in the occult who've been delivered, and they attest
to that very fact.
S8 (30:19):
Yeah. Yeah.
S1 (30:20):
It wouldn't surprise me at all by any stretch of
the imagination. When you talked about Washington, DC. I smiled
because there's so much there. But you're also suggesting and
I'm I'm asking you as a professor of Scripture, if
the Bible gives us a sense that there's a kind
of territorialism, if you will, in the divine and in
the supernatural. So you talked about leading cities astray. Do
(30:41):
we think, do we know does the Bible give us
any indication that there are supernatural forces that are assigned
over certain parts of the globe, and where certain things
are happening, we might we won't know definitively because we
don't have those kinds of eyes. You know, man looks
on the outward appearance. God looks on the heart. We
don't we can't see the supernatural. But is it is
it safe to presume that possibly there are supernatural forces
(31:03):
over territories on the globe where things are happening good
and bad?
S7 (31:08):
Well, I think that's a possibility or a conclusion that
would be validated. What I think biblically is particularly of
Ephesians six, where Paul warns believers to stand fast with
the armour of God because there are principalities, powers, world
rulers of this darkness, and so forth. They list four
different categories of fallen creatures demons or angels, and therefore, um,
(31:32):
that that would signify some degree of authority or rank
among the fallen angels. And I'm not just sure as
to whether or not that can be territorialized, but certainly
Israel would be, uh, a special hotbed for spiritual warfare.
And clearly Daniel presents Michael as the protector of Israel
(31:54):
in Daniel chapter 12, verse one.
S8 (31:56):
Mhm.
S1 (31:57):
Absolutely. I just it when you stop and think about
that and you set your mind on things above and
you read the headlines every day coming out of that
part of the world, the headlines that will never make
it on the alphabet soup network. So the headlines that
are being made in heaven, the spiritual warfare that's going
on over that part of the world, which is takes
my breath away when you think about it. Again, we
can't add to or take away from. But why do
(32:18):
you think? Let me just ask you, as someone who
loves the word, why only two angels named.
S7 (32:23):
Pardon me?
S1 (32:24):
Why only two angels named?
S7 (32:26):
Well, I don't know. I would.
S8 (32:28):
Plead.
S7 (32:28):
Deuteronomy 2929, which said, the secret things belong unto the
Lord our God.
S8 (32:33):
Right now.
S7 (32:34):
Now there are there are apocryphal writings. One is the
Book of Enoch, and there Enoch, uh, which is a
false writing. Uh, nevertheless, uh, has some truth in it.
But whether or not the truth that I'm about to
say is true, I don't really know. I don't think so.
But he identified the heads of all kinds of. He
(32:54):
gave the proper names of all kinds of different angels. Uh,
so in ancient times, people did delineate and describe angels
by proper names. But biblically there are only two named.
S8 (33:06):
Yeah.
S1 (33:06):
Exactly. Right. So it does suggest a kind of hierarchy,
does it not? Within the angelic world?
S7 (33:12):
Yes. And we must conclude that with Satan at the head.
S1 (33:16):
Yeah, absolutely. Wow. Amazing. All right. So going back to
the richness of Scripture, angels appear throughout both the old
and the New Testament. Sometimes they're giving a warning, sometimes
they're declaring a message. I mean, you think of the
angel that appears before Mary, the angel at the tomb.
I mean, just just a few of them. Talk to
me about when the Holy Spirit is manifest in the
(33:38):
book of acts. Was there any thing that we can
glean from Scripture that talks about? I mean, it was
it's super. It's saturated in the supernatural. Were angels a
part of any of that?
S7 (33:48):
Oh, yes. And, uh, may I refer to what I
spent a couple chapters talking about? And that is what
happened on the day of Pentecost. Uh, because for me,
it gives a greater dimension and reality to the understanding
of spiritual gifts. Uh, the coming of the Holy Spirit
on the day of Pentecost in Acts two fulfilled Scripture,
(34:09):
and Peter stands up and explains that and quotes from
Joel chapter two. It's a powerful passage. It's the only
place in the Old Testament where dreams, visions, and prophecies
all three come together in one text. And it's meaningful therefore.
And the spirit led Peter to quote that passage. But
as a result, the Holy Spirit comes upon Christians in
(34:31):
a powerful and new and permanent way that has never,
ever been done in that way. And in that capacity before.
And the Holy Spirit bestows on every believer at least one,
if not many, spiritual gifts. And we fail to recognize
that that's a divine empowerment on a parallel with God's
empowerment in other ways in the Old Testament and so forth.
(34:54):
In other words, I'm trying to put that on a
level with other voices of God speaking with angelic visitors,
appearing to people in the Old Testament and so forth.
So believers are equipped with a divine enablement or power
that is not natural or from their own making, but
is a divinely bequeathed or given gift to every single believer.
(35:16):
And it's powerful. And it therefore is the power that
we have in our spiritual warfare against the enemy and
the demonic forces around us. The Holy Spirit is there
to equip us and to empower us for victory on
every occasion.
S8 (35:32):
Wow.
S1 (35:33):
So that power is the Holy Spirit available to every
person upon confession of faith in Jesus Christ. I mean,
you talk about supernatural and that if we were to
ask the average believer to describe the Trinity, they'd have
probably a pretty good working knowledge of Jesus. Second, they'd
have a better they'd have a good knowledge of God.
But there's so many questions about the power of the
Holy Spirit. Why do you think that is?
S7 (35:55):
Uh, I guess through neglect.
S8 (35:58):
Uh.
S7 (36:00):
Well, that's an interesting question. Uh, through neglect and failure
to read scripture and failure. Failure. Oh, I think it
goes back to a general understanding of worldview and the
Christian worldview. In other words, here in contemporary America, we
are given to scientism and intellectual thinking and so forth,
and we give very little time to speaking, to thinking
(36:21):
about the spiritual dynamics all around us, which is a
greater reality, biblically speaking, than the physical realm around us.
S1 (36:29):
Excellent answer. And so very, very true. Doctor James DeYoung
is with us. His brand new book is called Supernatural
Encounters Divine and Demonic. We're all interested in this subject. Now,
let's make sure that what we know is right in
line with Scripture, and then get excited about the power
of God in our lives back after this. Doctor James
(36:58):
DeYoung is with us. He has a brand new book
called Supernatural Encounters Divine and demonic. Doctor DeYoung, by the way,
was a professor of New Testament at Western Seminary in Portland,
Oregon for decades, and we're so glad that he's with us.
Let me go to the New Testament and talk about
two individuals that you write about that had a glimpse
of heaven, Paul and John. And you start out in
(37:20):
one of your chapters with a very interesting verse from
Second Corinthians, if I can. James, let me read it
and then ask you to break it down for us.
I know a man in Christ who was caught up
in Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is
not permitted to speak. There was given to me a
thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me.
So in that same little passage, second Corinthians 12, verses two,
(37:43):
four and seven, you hear the story of Paul, who
has this view of heaven. He's given instructions. Don't tell
anybody about it. And then he gets a thorn in
the flesh. And that thorn is called a messenger of Satan.
So he literally goes from heaven to hell in that
short passage. Talk to me about this.
S7 (37:58):
Well. All right. Uh, this is one of the, if
not the greatest encounter of a human being in the Bible,
in the sense that he takes an otherworld journey to
heaven itself. He himself has to admit he can't tell
if he was in the body or out of the body.
So in some form of a vision, he took this trip, probably.
And it's similar to what John does in the book
(38:19):
of revelation in chapter one, as he describes it in
chapter four, verse one. But in any case, Paul had
this amazing experience, and yet he was forbidden to tell
of it in detail and to humble him. God gave
him a thorn in the flesh, some kind of ailment,
so that he suffered from this for the rest of
(38:40):
his life. And it was, in a sense, a messenger
from Satan to remind him that there's a spiritual warfare
going on, and he is deeply involved in it for
the rest of his life. It's meant to humble him
so that he would not be proudful about the event
that he experienced. And he says he cannot talk about
him them. They're basically on expressable. And from that, I
(39:03):
conclude that he saw things that really defy human language
to articulate. And it's a far glimpse of what is
coming for every believer in Christ, in the new heavens
and new earth. So it's a powerful, powerful passage.
S8 (39:17):
Yeah.
S1 (39:17):
Exactly right. Okay. So I don't want to skip the
other part. And that's John referenced again, his vision when
he's on the island of Patmos gives us the Book
of Revelation. Um, talk to me about that experience, because
the book of revelation for some is problematic in and
of itself. How John gets this vision is even more problematic.
Walk me through that.
S7 (39:37):
Well, the book of Revelation comes from God the Father,
through Jesus Christ, through angels to John, who is to
pass it on to God's servants, Christians. And so he
experiences something that is truly amazing. And, uh, most of it,
I think, is understandable as visions that he had and
he saw himself again, taken up in trips to heaven
(39:59):
and seeing heavenly things. Uh, we can think of chapters
four and five in particular, and then the rest of
the book is the unfolding of the judgments that come
during the Great Tribulation the seals, the trumpet and the
bowl judgments. It's a marvelous depiction of things. And when
people say, well, I can't understand the book of Revelation,
they need to remember that the whole book of revelation
(40:19):
was given so it could be understood. Chapter one, verses
one through three say, blessed is he who reads this,
and those who hear so that they might obey it.
And if they confess that they can't understand it, then
they can't obey it. So the opposite must be God's
purpose for giving us the book. It tells us something
of future events, and we're. And they are written in
(40:40):
such a way that we should understand them.
S8 (40:42):
Hmm.
S1 (40:45):
I love what you just said, and there are some
people who are going, well, I'm totally confused. I mean,
beasts and bulls. I don't get any of that. And
it's confusing to me. And yet, when you look at revelation,
it seems to me. And tell me if I'm wrong
because you're the professor. But if there's 66 books, it
is the book of revelation that is perhaps most deeply
containing supernatural encounters. Is that right? And why would God just.
(41:08):
And so why does God? You just said it's written
and you went to the first three verses of revelation one,
which is important for us to remember that we're supposed
to read this, we're supposed to understand it. So God
doesn't want to say, this is so spooky. I don't
want you to have anything to do with it. He
only gave us 66 books, every one of them inerrant, inspired, transcendent, immutable,
all God breathed God authored. So I don't take the
(41:29):
Book of revelation lightly, but it really is different from
any of the other books because one of your passions,
you one of your passions right now is eschatology. What
are some of the takeaways you think God wants us
to take from the Book of Revelation?
S7 (41:42):
Well, we need to remember that according to, again, the
first few verses of the book, it said that God
signed it to his servant John. The verb is camino,
which means that he communicated great truth to come using symbols.
and these symbols stand for true realities behind them. But
the symbols themselves are often mysterious and difficult, but with
(42:04):
adequate preparation and understanding and research and study. Those all
those visions are understandable to a significant degree. Not every
detail necessarily. Uh, and and so it's a wonderful and
rewarding book.
S8 (42:18):
Yeah.
S1 (42:19):
So because this is your passion and because I think
there are people who are curious but afraid to step
into it. How does one start with the book of Revelation?
What's the best way to read that book?
S7 (42:29):
Well, to read it from cover to cover for one thing,
to begin that way, and then remember that every other
verse in the book of Revelation, on average, is a
reference to Old Testament truth, an Old Testament person or
event or symbol or something. So the key to the
Book of Revelation is to know the Old Testament. It's
a prolific book that is deeply, deeply dependent upon the
(42:50):
Old Testament, but never quotes it explicitly. It's an amazing
phenomenon in itself.
S8 (42:56):
Yeah.
S1 (42:56):
Exactly right. And you cannot look at revelation without looking
at Ezekiel and Daniel. The intersection here is just unbelievably profound.
S8 (43:04):
So when.
S7 (43:05):
Well, you know. Well, let me just conclude here by
saying something else about the book of revelation, because it
ties into supernatural encounters very graphically and fully. And at
the end of the book, we're told that all of
this was written so that we could be ready for
the Lord's return. And so I cover the rapture there
because of its, uh, the invitation for Jesus to come quickly.
(43:28):
And it's tied. Then to first Thessalonians four and first
Corinthians 15. And I want to say to each of
your listeners that all the patterns I deal with in
the book, there's over 240, uh, different supernatural encounters. But
I ask three simple questions. What happened? What did it
mean then? And what does it mean now?
S1 (43:49):
And what a great way to end our conversation, James,
with questions that will make us go deeper, think better,
and get really into the Word of God. Let me
just tell our friends again the name of your new book.
It's called Supernatural Encounters Divine and Demonic, written by a
man who has taught the scriptures for decades and who
loves the Word of God. So if this is an
interest to you, and I don't know how, it can't
(44:09):
be an interest to every single one of us. It's
what we know a little bit of what we can't
see and yet is 1,000% reality. Now let that sink
in for a little bit. That's pretty interesting, isn't it? Again,
we just don't have those kinds of eyes. But boy,
the reality of the supernatural is all around us. Great
comfort in that. Greater is he that is in us
than he that is in the world. So this isn't
(44:30):
about being afraid. This is about understanding who's the victor,
who's the conqueror, and who is the one that sets
the captive free. James. Thank you. It is an absolutely
fascinating book. Again, I've got it on my website. If
you're interested in the market with Janet Parshall. Click on
the red box. It will take you to the information
page and you can learn how to get your own copy.
Doctor DeYoung, thank you for a great conversation. We'll see
(44:51):
you next time, friends.
Hi friend, thank you so much for downloading this podcast
and I truly hope you hear something that edifies encourage, equips, enlightens,
and then gets you out there in the marketplace of ideas.
But before you go, I want to tell you about
this month's truth tool. It's called Have You Ever Wondered?
And I absolutely love this topic because if you're like me,
going out into the night sky and looking up and
seeing a million stars, don't you just stop and think
(00:22):
about God? And are you not in a moment of
awe and wonder or looking out over the vast expanse
of an ocean and you start thinking, what is man,
that thou art mindful of him? And it makes you
wonder about the magnificence of God? I think that sense
of wonder was put there on purpose, and this wonderful
book includes a composite of multiple authors who have written
(00:42):
from their perspective as a scientist, or a historian, or
a mathematician or an artist, on why they all have
this sense of awe through the work that they do.
In other words, the heavens declare the glory. And as
it tells us in Romans, we are really without excuse
because his handiwork is everywhere. And this book invites you
to walk through the chapters written by people who all
(01:03):
have a sense of awe and wonder when it comes
to God through their various disciplines in life. It's an
amazing book and it's yours. For a gift of any amount,
just call 877 Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58. Ask
for a copy of Have You Ever Wondered? And we'll
send it right off to you as my way of
saying thank you, because we are listener supported radio. Or
you can go online to in the market with Janet
(01:24):
Parshall and you're also on the website, consider becoming a
partial partner. Those are people who give every single month
at a level of their own choosing. You always get
the truth tool, but in addition to that, you get
a weekly newsletter that includes my writing and an audio
piece just for my partial partners. So 877 Janet 58
or the website in the market with Janet Parshall. Consider
(01:46):
becoming a partial partner or asking for this month's truth tool.
Have you ever wondered? And now please enjoy the broadcast.
S2 (01:54):
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3 (01:55):
The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4 (01:58):
Americans worshiping government over God.
S5 (02:00):
Extremely rare safety move by a major in 17 years.
S6 (02:04):
The Palestinians and Israelis negotiated.
S1 (02:21):
Hi, friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall. Oh,
are we going to have a fascinating conversation? In fact,
I have to tell you right up front, there is
so much excellent information in the book we're going to
talk about. That will be the basis for a wellspring
of conversations on a topic that has everybody saved or
not interested. I'm just not going to get it done
(02:41):
in an hour. So I'm going to talk about some
of it. In the meantime, you're going to get another copy.
Just go to the website, figure out how you can
get it, pick up a copy for yourself. But this
is a marvelous book. Here's the title supernatural encounters divine
and demonic dreams, visions and prophecy. Past and present. And
this is about exposing the occult. See, I told you,
(03:03):
I have your presence right now. I got to tell you.
We know that Hollywood is interested in this. We know
that horror films, for example, are the number one genre
in film. What does that say about the human condition? Thanks,
but no thanks. But there is an interest. I also believe,
because God has placed eternity in our hearts, that we
all believe that there's something else, someone else, something beyond.
(03:25):
And then the Bible tells us, for those of us
who are followers of Christ and believe in the inerrancy
of His Word, that we should entertain strangers, well, because
we might be entertaining angels. So. And Ephesians remind us
that the battle is not against flesh and blood. Thank you, Lord,
that we can't see them with our little mortals minds.
We'd pass out cold, I'm quite sure. But that battle
is battle is being waged in the heavenlies, and our
(03:45):
great King is the victor. But I love it when
someone who understands the Word of God comes along and
teaches us, because it is a fascinating conversation, and I
think it does several things. Number one, it reminds us
to get dressed in the morning. You know that suit
of armor that's hanging in your closet? Yeah. You're supposed
to put that on every day. If you don't, good luck.
Because it's a battle out there. It's tough out there.
And so you and I need to suit up when
(04:05):
we get up and we go out. And so we
need to understand that this is real, not to be afraid.
Come on. Greater is he that is in us than
he that is in the world. But the reality of
this war is something that cannot be avoided or negated.
Doctor James DeYoung knows that he has been a professor
of New Testament at Western Seminary in Portland, Oregon for
years and years and years, retired in 2015. His most
(04:26):
recent works deal with eschatology. His articles have appeared in
Bibliotheca Sacra. Just gave my husband a renewal to that
for Christmas. It was his favorite Christmas present, by the way.
Master's Seminary Journal and Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society.
He has co-authored Beyond the Obvious, Discover the Deeper Meaning
of Scripture, and contributed to the evangelical Commentary on the Bible,
(04:47):
as well as the Gospels and the Scriptures of Israel.
His brand new book, and the one we just talked about,
has contributions from Tracy Pollan, his friend, and his son
James as well. It is a marvelous book filled with illustrations,
and boy, it caught my attention and I'm so glad
that I had an opportunity to talk to doctor DeYoung
years ago when he wrote a book that was a compassionate, eloquent,
(05:09):
biblical rebuttal of The Shack. And if you have not
heard that interview, if you've not read Doctor Deyoung's book
on that, you need to, because that thing was saturated
in heresy, and he really did a marvelous job of
breaking it all down. And I'm so thankful. So, James,
thank you very much for joining me again. We had
a memorable conversation in the past. I believe that this
will be the first of many conversations on this book,
(05:32):
because there's just too much to cover in an hour.
And I was going to ask you a question, but
I think there's a sneak peak in what I just said.
Because you are interested in eschatology, it seems to me
that conversations about supernatural encounters just follow suit from that.
Am I right or wrong?
S7 (05:48):
You're very much correct, Janet. Thank you so much for
having me today.
S1 (05:52):
Oh, it's a delight to have you here. So this
is an interesting topic. I remember years ago, Billy Graham
wrote a small little book about angels. I devoured that
book because he did a wonderful job of explaining angel ology.
And we know that the culture, when we let the
culture teach us theology and we shouldn't. They talk about
demons all the time, and then they also turn around
and they tell us that we should be worshiping angels.
(06:13):
You point out very clearly that that is not the case,
but you break this book up into several sections, which
I found absolutely fascinating. And you start most interestingly by this,
and I'm going to read the chapter. It's part one
imagining Supernatural Encounters in Israel at War. What an interesting
place to start a conversation about supernatural encounters. Why begin
(06:35):
with Israel?
S7 (06:36):
Well, uh, the history of how this book came to
pass is, uh, enlightening for myself and perhaps for your listeners.
I remember reading books about the occult and about supernatural
encounters in other sources. And one day I said to
(06:56):
my wife, I'm going to write a book about supernatural encounters.
And that took off in various directions, and I finally
finalized a particular direction I wanted to go. And so
that consumes the bulk of the book. And then I
thought of adding a couple other things that would contemporize
the biblical message. So that's how this book came to pass.
S1 (07:17):
That's so interesting. Now, having said that, it's interesting that
you would start with Israel. Why Israel?
S7 (07:24):
Well, uh, because when I started, uh, thinking about this book,
the recent events that had happened in Israel with the
attack of Hamas on October the 7th, 2023 was in
my mind. And, uh, I had been reading about supernatural
encounters all through Israel's history, especially of the evil one
(07:45):
that take place in the territory that we know as Gaza.
And I thought, you know, my son, who has a
great imagination and wants to write and has written some fiction,
he could contribute a contemporary fictional account of what happened
on that particular day and how it unfolded as two
(08:08):
children who had been whose parents had been killed by Hamas,
are delivered by God's supernatural agents, as my son called them.
And those are angels. And it took place near Mount Hermon,
which perhaps your listeners are acquainted with the fact that
that is associated with the place that fallen angels first
engaged to humanity. So anyway, that all came together in
(08:30):
different parts like that.
S1 (08:32):
Wow. Absolutely fascinating. You brought up your son. Talk about
the role that your son played in this book. And
Tracy as well.
S7 (08:38):
Well, uh, after thinking about how I wanted to write
my part. And I'll get back to that, uh, in
the format that I chose, I thought, you know, this
book needs to be contemporized so that people don't simply
read about the Bible supernatural encounters and think that God
no longer is encountering mankind, nor are demons any longer
(09:00):
doing that. And so I had made a friend, uh, Tracy,
who went into the occult in a very deep way
and spent several years there and explored all kinds of
ways to understand, uh, life and what that may have
to offer. And so I invited her to participate in
(09:22):
it that way and write part three, giving her personal
testimony of being involved in the occult and how to
be delivered from it.
S1 (09:30):
Let me stop you there if I can, James, because
you hear the music, let me pick it up exactly
at that point. So Tracy's very compelling story of getting
involved in this stuff is a part of the new
book that doctor DeYoung has written called Supernatural Encounters, and
his son also played an important role novelizing The beginning. Fabulous.
Back after this. Have you ever wondered why music moves
(09:57):
us so deeply? Or why beauty takes our breath away?
My Truth Tool this month is a thought provoking book
that explores those moments of wonder we all encounter. It's
called Have You ever Wondered? Consider how ordinary aspects of
life point to the extraordinary biblical truths. Ask for your
copy of. Have you ever wondered when you give a
gift of any amount to in the market, call 877
Janet 58. That's 877 Janet 58 or go to in
(10:19):
the market with Janet Parshall. Fascinating topic. The supernatural. It
is real. And don't let the world teach you theology.
Thank you, Doctor Michael Easley, for reminding us of that
on a regular basis. Doctor James DeYoung is with us,
taught for years at the New Testament at Western Seminary, Portland, Oregon,
and he was a Prof of New Testament. Wouldn't you
(10:41):
love to have sat in his class? So Tracy's story
and by the way, James, you're taking this out and
you're going to turn that into, like, a standalone for
her story, are you not?
S7 (10:50):
Yes, I'm planning to. Already there is a booklet that
we've just published, uh, called Visions and Dreams. Uh, how? Basically,
Sophie Lin, that's her pen name. Uh, got involved in
the occult, got deeply involved. So much so that she
despaired of life and thought of suicide, and then repented
(11:11):
as she called out to God to save her. And
Jesus answered her prayer and entered into her life and
transformed her, made her into a new person in Christ.
And all of that is told in a short, beautifully
illustrated booklet that we're beginning to distribute.
S1 (11:27):
Excellent, excellent. And I can't wait for our friends to
get a copy of that as well. It'll be a
wonderful witnessing tool. Now, I don't want to avoid your son,
because I just want to encapsulate what he did again
at the beginning. He writes this wonderful. It's a little novella,
if I can put it that way, about using angels
to tell a story that ties back to what's happening
in Israel. And I'm so grateful for his contribution. Let
(11:49):
me just ask you a question. And this is not
the novel part. This is the reality part. Do you
think that there are angels involved in what's going on
in the Middle East right now?
S7 (11:57):
Oh of course. In fact, you notice I didn't hesitate
to answer that question.
S1 (12:02):
That's right.
S7 (12:03):
If nowhere else in Gaza and I did this in
an article for Prophecy Watchers magazine, I trace how that
the present war or conflict going on between Israel and
Hamas in Gaza is simply the modern counterpart of a
demonic power and influence in that area of Israel that
goes all the way back 2000 years or so before Christ,
(12:28):
and after that time, during the time of Moses, and
then the later time of under Joshua, when he was
commanded by God, to go in and conquer all of
the land of Israel. And he did much of that,
but failed to conquer certain parts in the North, and
then also along the Mediterranean Sea, which is the Gaza
(12:48):
Strip as we know it today. And Gaza is named
in the Old Testament as part of the inheritance that
went to Ham, Noah's son under Canaan and Israel under Joshua.
Israel failed to capture that area, and it has been
a hotbed of demonic activity and idolatry ever since. And
so it's not surprising that these kinds of things continue
(13:12):
to happen in history and even in the modern time now.
S1 (13:15):
Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. I mean, if
you just stop and you realize the importance that Israel
has played in the past, currently making headlines every day
and the role it will definitely play in the future,
you can't look at that without understanding that it has
to be surrounded by spiritual warfare.
S7 (13:30):
Yes. Wow. I even insert the incident of David fighting
Goliath because Goliath is from Gath and, um, is a
giant and an evident, uh, descendant, ultimately of the Nephilim
back in Genesis. And, uh, David's fight with Goliath, he
understood right away to be a spiritual struggle between his
(13:52):
God and his God, Jehovah, or Yahweh and the God
of Goliath. And, uh, so David saw it as a
spiritual battle. Right on. Even though the older fighters there
did not. And it was, uh, told in great length,
because it sets the stage for why David is qualified
to be the first king of Israel.
S1 (14:14):
Um, and there's a linkage, is there not, between Philistines
and Palestine?
S7 (14:20):
Yes, absolutely.
S1 (14:22):
Talk about that to our friends who don't understand that,
because I think, particularly with today's headlines, that's important to know.
S7 (14:28):
Well, uh, the Philistines are the people who lived along
that edge of the Mediterranean Sea and perhaps other parts. And, uh,
they give the name Palestine to the land that they occupied.
And so the modern counterpart of that is, uh. The
Palestinian effort in Israel. And so there's this connection all
(14:49):
the way back to ancient history. So the designated land
from a biblical standpoint is Canaan or Israel. And, uh,
the pagan identity is that with the Philistines or Palestine.
S1 (15:04):
Fascinating. All right. So in deference to time, let me
just talk about where you go to. A huge chunk
of the book, you call it supernatural encounters in the
Bible and in history from Genesis to Revelation and beyond.
And this is just the big chunk of the book
as well. It should be. And this is why I
have your number, and I'm going to track you down,
doctor DeYoung, because we're never going to get through all
(15:24):
of this in one conversation. And I want to move
through this slowly and thoughtfully, because there's a rich theology
in all of this. So let me just start with
the beginning. And it's I love the fact that God
doesn't tell us everything. I think he wants us to
be curious. More importantly, I think he wants us to
be hungry. If I can use the words of Paul Harvey,
that famous radio broadcaster, he wants us to get the
(15:45):
rest of the story. So we get this little sneak
peek that there is a rebellion in heaven, and we
know that this worship leader eventually becomes Satan, takes a
third of the angels and there is a rebellion. What
else can we glean? What else do we know we
don't want to add to or take away from Scripture?
But what do we need to know that is there
for our benefit?
S7 (16:05):
Well, I think we can make the conclusion that this
rebellion by Satan or Lucifer, as he was known then,
occurred before God ever created the world as we know it,
because all of a sudden he appears in the garden
as a fallen being and tempts Adam and Eve and
brings about through this temptation the fall of humanity. And
(16:28):
so this is the one of the greatest, uh, supernatural
encounters in the entire Bible because of the consequences. But
it's a demonic encounter, of course. And so all the
human race is plunged into evil. And we still experience
that today. The results of that fall.
S1 (16:44):
Yeah, 100%. I'm coming up to a break, but when
we come back, let me talk a little bit about
the Tower of Babel. I wonder how often people think
of that as part of the supernatural. And then I
do want to move to Abraham and Lot. And what
happens in the city of Sodom and Gomorrah, which is
so grotesquely in this postmodern world, misrepresented. It is a
(17:05):
fascinating book and is just chock full of good theology
and stories about the supernatural. And come to think of it,
just realize that we live in this three dimensional world.
It seems rich and full, does it not? But oh,
it's nothing compared to what is beyond. There is something beyond.
And that's why doctor DeYoung writes about supernatural encounters, both
divine and demonic, in his brand new book. We're going
(17:26):
to take a break and come right back. By the way,
if you're interested in a copy of this book, I
hope you are. Just go to In the Market with
Janet Parshall Org right below the description of the day.
There's a red box. It says program details and audio.
Clicking on it will take you to the information page,
and you can click on through to learn how to
get your copy back after this. We're visiting with Doctor
(17:53):
James DeYoung, who has been a professor of New Testament
at Western Seminary in Portland, Oregon for years and years
and years. He's a wonderful writer. His works have appeared
in Bibliotheca Sacra, master's Seminary Journal, the list goes on.
His brand new book is called Supernatural Encounters Divine and
Demonic Dreams, Vision and Prophecy, Past and Present. It's an
(18:14):
absolutely fascinating book. So I'm glad I'm going to do
this slowly because so many of these stories are just rich.
So take me to the Tower of Babel. And again, James,
I think because of the size of our audience and
to God be the glory, I don't want to presume
that everybody's at the same starting space scripturally, and for
a lot of people, they might not even know the
story of the Tower of Babel. So teach us.
S7 (18:33):
Well. The Tower of Babel is recorded in Genesis ten
and 11. It was the attempt of humanity after the
flood of humanity is represented by the descendants of Noah,
and he had three sons, and among them were Shem, Ham,
and Japheth. And the descendants of Ham especially turn out
(18:54):
to be evil in their orientation eventually, but at the
Tower of Babel, after mankind began to multiply again under
the descendants of Noah, they decide to build a tower
as it is described, and a city and to local
locally do this in a particular place, and I believe
that they were trying to represent or replicate what had
(19:18):
happened before the flood in the attempt to transgress into
God's realm, uh, uninvited, that is, they were trying to
bring heaven to earth in their own means and by
their evil ways. And so the Tower of Babel represents
a replication or a duplication of that event that caused
(19:38):
the flood in the first place. First place. So, uh,
as they're building the tower, God looks upon this as
an evil act. It is a direct failure to obey
his command, to disperse and multiply and fill the earth.
So God evaluated this as an evil act. So he, uh, sends, uh,
(20:00):
multiple languages among the builders so that they cannot understand, uh, their, their, uh,
aim and project. And all of humanity represented at that point, uh,
need to disperse, and they finally do so and, and
end up obeying God's command to fill the earth. So
(20:21):
God's evaluation of this was a very evil intent. And
by confusing their languages, the building of the tower had
to stop.
S1 (20:30):
No, let me linger here a little bit, because I
think there are some things worth ruminating on. Number one,
there's no survivors from the flood, save Noah and his
sons and their families. So one would have thought, being
an eyewitness to total global destruction, which will never happen again.
Thank you, Lord, for the sign of your covenant with
the rainbow that they would have said, now we know
how to live. He is the one true God. We'll
(20:51):
worship him always. We'll teach the generations to come, to
worship him always. There's that basic sin nature of man.
So even though humanity has been wiped out once again,
sin starts raising its ugly head. I think that says
something about the human condition and how desperate we are
for a savior, because they had a perfect opportunity to say, boy,
we're never going to do that again. And exactly the
(21:12):
opposite happens, which I think is so interesting. So this please.
S7 (21:16):
You know, after after enough time, we all forget God's graces.
And through successive generations, that story of salvation and deliverance
of the past becomes more and more faint and remote.
And we replicate and duplicate our evil rebellion against God
in subsequent generations.
S1 (21:36):
Such a good point, and such a reminder to stay
grounded in the word close to him, because all we
like sheep have gone astray. That's something that we can't
forget about the human condition and the story of Noah
and the flood and his sons is a perfect example.
Total annihilation saved Noah and his family, and yet sin
creeps its way back into the world again. It's just amazing.
So how do angels play in this story, James?
S7 (21:59):
Well, in that particular story, I'm not sure. Um, but
certainly in the subsequent events, uh, that happen in Genesis, uh,
they certainly do intervene. And, uh, the story of Sodom
and Gomorrah is a classic example of this, really on
an unprecedented scale, never before experienced and never since. The
(22:22):
biblical record of Sodom and Gomorrah starts in Genesis 13,
where it is noted in verse 13 that they had
an evil record alright already. And so in chapter 18,
three visitors come to Abraham, who's God's appointed, uh, person
for the subsequent generations that will eventually, eventually bring about
the nation of Israel. Uh, two of these visitors to
(22:46):
Abraham are angels, and one is Jesus Christ in a theophany. Theophany?
An appearance of God in the Old Testament. And, uh,
the angels are sent there to investigate whether or not
Sodom and Gomorrah are as evil as the report is,
has been. And, uh, they go off to Sodom and, uh,
(23:09):
they go to lot's house, who is a nephew of Abraham. And, uh,
while they're in there, the men of Sodom, men of Sodom,
encircle it and demand to have the two angels come
out to them who have appeared as men. And so
these angels, uh, uh, refused to, uh, lot refused to
(23:31):
allow them to leave the house and, and protect them.
And so the angels caused blindness upon, uh, the men
of Sodom, and they are forced to break off their
attempt to, uh, harm and to sexually, uh, violate the
two men who are really angels. And so the warned
(23:53):
destruction of Sodom takes place. And, uh, Abraham is deeply
concerned about this as he's foretold. And so he intercedes
on behalf of lot and others that may be in
Sodom and starts with 50 people. If there are 50
people that are righteous, he pleads that God would not
destroy them. And God says, yes, I will not destroy
(24:14):
it if there are 50 people there. And in the
middle of this discussion, uh, we are told one of
the basic principles of the entire Old Testament. Uh, will
not God, the judge of all the earth, do right.
And so he goes all the way down to ten people,
and there are not even ten people there. But God
still spare those who are righteous, namely lot and his family.
S1 (24:34):
Exactly, exactly. So for postmodern people who are reinventing the scriptures,
this has nothing to do with the act of being inhospitable,
by the way. Doctor James Young is with us. Fascinating book.
It's called Supernatural Encounters Divine and Demonic. It is chock
full of stories from Scripture back after this. Our team
(24:59):
of partial partners is growing, and I love communicating behind
the scenes with this special group of friends who are
devoted to giving a monthly gift in the market. Our
partial partners receive private emails direct from me on issues
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(25:20):
in the market with Janet Parshall Doctor James DeYoung is
with us. He has been professor of New Testament at
Western Seminary in Portland, Oregon for years and years and years.
His most recent works deal with eschatology. His articles have
appeared in Bibliotheca Sacra, master Seminary Journal, and the Journal
(25:40):
of the Evangelical Theological Society. He has co-authored Beyond the Obvious,
Discover the Deeper Meaning of Scripture, and contributed to the
Evangelical Commentary on the Bible and the Gospels and the
Scriptures of Israel. His newest book is called Supernatural Encounters
Divine and Demonic Dreams, Visions and Prophecy, Past and Present. James,
(26:02):
I was thinking during the break, the book is just
rich with you walking right through scripture with all of
these angelic manifestations, both demonic and divine. But let me
just pull back, pull over to the side of the
road and hit the stop for a minute. What is
the purpose of angels? What does the scripture. I'm going
to give you a cluster of questions here. What's the
purpose of angels? Is there a hierarchy in Scripture? Why
(26:22):
are there only to the best of my knowledge, two
angels whose names are named? So in other words, being
very careful with the word not wanting to add to
or take away from what does the Bible tell us
about angels?
S7 (26:35):
Well, I think, pardon me in answer to your first question.
According to Hebrews chapter one verse 14, angels are sent
forth to minister on behalf of us who are believers.
That's the primary, uh, challenge or commitment that angels have
during our age. They also reveal God's word is told
to us in the book of Galatians that the law
(26:58):
came from God through angels to Moses. So they mediated
the Old Covenant, and they continued to worship God day
and night for eternity. According to revelation chapters four and five.
So there are several purposes for angels. Uh, an additional
one is to reveal God's will to particular individuals along
(27:18):
the way. And so angels appeared to Abraham. They appeared
to Jacob. They appeared to other Old Testament persons. And
in the New Testament they appear to, uh, the apostles
at different, on different occasions and so forth.
S1 (27:34):
So in the verse in Hebrews it talks about entertaining angels.
There might be strangers, but they were unaware that they're angels.
That seems to me to suggest that we could see angels.
Is that right?
S7 (27:45):
Well, that's a verse from chapter 13 in, in at
the end of the book of Hebrews. And it's a
suggestion and a warning to us that we don't disparage
the fact that angels may appear to us today on
any particular occasion. Uh, just as they have in the past.
And so we should be aware of that fact and
(28:06):
not dismiss and think, uh, less of, uh, the possibility
of angels appearing today whether, uh, in the personhood of
what appears to us to be a real individuals or persons,
as well as in dreams and perhaps visions.
S8 (28:24):
Mhm. Mhm.
S1 (28:25):
Well, and if the Scripture tells us that he has
set his angels to keep watch over us, obviously they're
still actively participating in God's good and perfect will.
S7 (28:36):
Oh yes. And that's for believers. And another evil thing
that angels are doing today, according to Daniel ten and 11,
is to lead nations astray, to deceive them, to corrupt them, uh,
to put them in allegiance to Satan rather than to God.
And so that means, as a practical application, uh, we
can ask the question, what kind of angels are behind
(28:59):
the scenes operating in Washington, DC? So there's a conflict
going on all over the world, all the time, uh,
to take nations and companies and individuals down the path
of evil and, and therefore corrupt them. And on the
other hand, there's a conflict going on between them and
(29:19):
good angels. And as you said, two are named in
the Bible, uh, Michael and Gabriel. And they are put in, uh,
in the effort on behalf of God to prevent evil
from championing, from winning and so forth.
S8 (29:33):
Um.
S1 (29:34):
So when you said angels behind those nations that are
being pulled astray, etc., you mean fallen angels, or in
other word, for it would be demons, right?
S7 (29:43):
Yes. So they are an attempt of the evil forces, uh,
to corrupt them and destroy them and to put them
in allegiance to Satan rather than to doing God's will
in the earth.
S1 (29:54):
So if Hebrews gives us the sense that we can
see angels, therefore does it follow that we could also
unaware be seeing a demon?
S7 (30:04):
Yes, I've read reports of people who can testify to
that effect. I think Tracy says that in her testimony.
I read somewhere else from two other, people who were
formerly in the occult who've been delivered, and they attest
to that very fact.
S8 (30:19):
Yeah. Yeah.
S1 (30:20):
It wouldn't surprise me at all by any stretch of
the imagination. When you talked about Washington, DC. I smiled
because there's so much there. But you're also suggesting and
I'm I'm asking you as a professor of Scripture, if
the Bible gives us a sense that there's a kind
of territorialism, if you will, in the divine and in
the supernatural. So you talked about leading cities astray. Do
(30:41):
we think, do we know does the Bible give us
any indication that there are supernatural forces that are assigned
over certain parts of the globe, and where certain things
are happening, we might we won't know definitively because we
don't have those kinds of eyes. You know, man looks
on the outward appearance. God looks on the heart. We
don't we can't see the supernatural. But is it is
it safe to presume that possibly there are supernatural forces
(31:03):
over territories on the globe where things are happening good
and bad?
S7 (31:08):
Well, I think that's a possibility or a conclusion that
would be validated. What I think biblically is particularly of
Ephesians six, where Paul warns believers to stand fast with
the armour of God because there are principalities, powers, world
rulers of this darkness, and so forth. They list four
different categories of fallen creatures demons or angels, and therefore, um,
(31:32):
that that would signify some degree of authority or rank
among the fallen angels. And I'm not just sure as
to whether or not that can be territorialized, but certainly
Israel would be, uh, a special hotbed for spiritual warfare.
And clearly Daniel presents Michael as the protector of Israel
(31:54):
in Daniel chapter 12, verse one.
S8 (31:56):
Mhm.
S1 (31:57):
Absolutely. I just it when you stop and think about
that and you set your mind on things above and
you read the headlines every day coming out of that
part of the world, the headlines that will never make
it on the alphabet soup network. So the headlines that
are being made in heaven, the spiritual warfare that's going
on over that part of the world, which is takes
my breath away when you think about it. Again, we
can't add to or take away from. But why do
(32:18):
you think? Let me just ask you, as someone who
loves the word, why only two angels named.
S7 (32:23):
Pardon me?
S1 (32:24):
Why only two angels named?
S7 (32:26):
Well, I don't know. I would.
S8 (32:28):
Plead.
S7 (32:28):
Deuteronomy 2929, which said, the secret things belong unto the
Lord our God.
S8 (32:33):
Right now.
S7 (32:34):
Now there are there are apocryphal writings. One is the
Book of Enoch, and there Enoch, uh, which is a
false writing. Uh, nevertheless, uh, has some truth in it.
But whether or not the truth that I'm about to
say is true, I don't really know. I don't think so.
But he identified the heads of all kinds of. He
(32:54):
gave the proper names of all kinds of different angels. Uh,
so in ancient times, people did delineate and describe angels
by proper names. But biblically there are only two named.
S8 (33:06):
Yeah.
S1 (33:06):
Exactly. Right. So it does suggest a kind of hierarchy,
does it not? Within the angelic world?
S7 (33:12):
Yes. And we must conclude that with Satan at the head.
S1 (33:16):
Yeah, absolutely. Wow. Amazing. All right. So going back to
the richness of Scripture, angels appear throughout both the old
and the New Testament. Sometimes they're giving a warning, sometimes
they're declaring a message. I mean, you think of the
angel that appears before Mary, the angel at the tomb.
I mean, just just a few of them. Talk to
me about when the Holy Spirit is manifest in the
(33:38):
book of acts. Was there any thing that we can
glean from Scripture that talks about? I mean, it was
it's super. It's saturated in the supernatural. Were angels a
part of any of that?
S7 (33:48):
Oh, yes. And, uh, may I refer to what I
spent a couple chapters talking about? And that is what
happened on the day of Pentecost. Uh, because for me,
it gives a greater dimension and reality to the understanding
of spiritual gifts. Uh, the coming of the Holy Spirit
on the day of Pentecost in Acts two fulfilled Scripture,
(34:09):
and Peter stands up and explains that and quotes from
Joel chapter two. It's a powerful passage. It's the only
place in the Old Testament where dreams, visions, and prophecies
all three come together in one text. And it's meaningful therefore.
And the spirit led Peter to quote that passage. But
as a result, the Holy Spirit comes upon Christians in
(34:31):
a powerful and new and permanent way that has never,
ever been done in that way. And in that capacity before.
And the Holy Spirit bestows on every believer at least one,
if not many, spiritual gifts. And we fail to recognize
that that's a divine empowerment on a parallel with God's
empowerment in other ways in the Old Testament and so forth.
(34:54):
In other words, I'm trying to put that on a
level with other voices of God speaking with angelic visitors,
appearing to people in the Old Testament and so forth.
So believers are equipped with a divine enablement or power
that is not natural or from their own making, but
is a divinely bequeathed or given gift to every single believer.
(35:16):
And it's powerful. And it therefore is the power that
we have in our spiritual warfare against the enemy and
the demonic forces around us. The Holy Spirit is there
to equip us and to empower us for victory on
every occasion.
S8 (35:32):
Wow.
S1 (35:33):
So that power is the Holy Spirit available to every
person upon confession of faith in Jesus Christ. I mean,
you talk about supernatural and that if we were to
ask the average believer to describe the Trinity, they'd have
probably a pretty good working knowledge of Jesus. Second, they'd
have a better they'd have a good knowledge of God.
But there's so many questions about the power of the
Holy Spirit. Why do you think that is?
S7 (35:55):
Uh, I guess through neglect.
S8 (35:58):
Uh.
S7 (36:00):
Well, that's an interesting question. Uh, through neglect and failure
to read scripture and failure. Failure. Oh, I think it
goes back to a general understanding of worldview and the
Christian worldview. In other words, here in contemporary America, we
are given to scientism and intellectual thinking and so forth,
and we give very little time to speaking, to thinking
(36:21):
about the spiritual dynamics all around us, which is a
greater reality, biblically speaking, than the physical realm around us.
S1 (36:29):
Excellent answer. And so very, very true. Doctor James DeYoung
is with us. His brand new book is called Supernatural
Encounters Divine and Demonic. We're all interested in this subject. Now,
let's make sure that what we know is right in
line with Scripture, and then get excited about the power
of God in our lives back after this. Doctor James
(36:58):
DeYoung is with us. He has a brand new book
called Supernatural Encounters Divine and demonic. Doctor DeYoung, by the way,
was a professor of New Testament at Western Seminary in Portland,
Oregon for decades, and we're so glad that he's with us.
Let me go to the New Testament and talk about
two individuals that you write about that had a glimpse
of heaven, Paul and John. And you start out in
(37:20):
one of your chapters with a very interesting verse from
Second Corinthians, if I can. James, let me read it
and then ask you to break it down for us.
I know a man in Christ who was caught up
in Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is
not permitted to speak. There was given to me a
thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me.
So in that same little passage, second Corinthians 12, verses two,
(37:43):
four and seven, you hear the story of Paul, who
has this view of heaven. He's given instructions. Don't tell
anybody about it. And then he gets a thorn in
the flesh. And that thorn is called a messenger of Satan.
So he literally goes from heaven to hell in that
short passage. Talk to me about this.
S7 (37:58):
Well. All right. Uh, this is one of the, if
not the greatest encounter of a human being in the Bible,
in the sense that he takes an otherworld journey to
heaven itself. He himself has to admit he can't tell
if he was in the body or out of the body.
So in some form of a vision, he took this trip, probably.
And it's similar to what John does in the book
(38:19):
of revelation in chapter one, as he describes it in
chapter four, verse one. But in any case, Paul had
this amazing experience, and yet he was forbidden to tell
of it in detail and to humble him. God gave
him a thorn in the flesh, some kind of ailment,
so that he suffered from this for the rest of
(38:40):
his life. And it was, in a sense, a messenger
from Satan to remind him that there's a spiritual warfare
going on, and he is deeply involved in it for
the rest of his life. It's meant to humble him
so that he would not be proudful about the event
that he experienced. And he says he cannot talk about
him them. They're basically on expressable. And from that, I
(39:03):
conclude that he saw things that really defy human language
to articulate. And it's a far glimpse of what is
coming for every believer in Christ, in the new heavens
and new earth. So it's a powerful, powerful passage.
S8 (39:17):
Yeah.
S1 (39:17):
Exactly right. Okay. So I don't want to skip the
other part. And that's John referenced again, his vision when
he's on the island of Patmos gives us the Book
of Revelation. Um, talk to me about that experience, because
the book of revelation for some is problematic in and
of itself. How John gets this vision is even more problematic.
Walk me through that.
S7 (39:37):
Well, the book of Revelation comes from God the Father,
through Jesus Christ, through angels to John, who is to
pass it on to God's servants, Christians. And so he
experiences something that is truly amazing. And, uh, most of it,
I think, is understandable as visions that he had and
he saw himself again, taken up in trips to heaven
(39:59):
and seeing heavenly things. Uh, we can think of chapters
four and five in particular, and then the rest of
the book is the unfolding of the judgments that come
during the Great Tribulation the seals, the trumpet and the
bowl judgments. It's a marvelous depiction of things. And when
people say, well, I can't understand the book of Revelation,
they need to remember that the whole book of revelation
(40:19):
was given so it could be understood. Chapter one, verses
one through three say, blessed is he who reads this,
and those who hear so that they might obey it.
And if they confess that they can't understand it, then
they can't obey it. So the opposite must be God's
purpose for giving us the book. It tells us something
of future events, and we're. And they are written in
(40:40):
such a way that we should understand them.
S8 (40:42):
Hmm.
S1 (40:45):
I love what you just said, and there are some
people who are going, well, I'm totally confused. I mean,
beasts and bulls. I don't get any of that. And
it's confusing to me. And yet, when you look at revelation,
it seems to me. And tell me if I'm wrong
because you're the professor. But if there's 66 books, it
is the book of revelation that is perhaps most deeply
containing supernatural encounters. Is that right? And why would God just.
(41:08):
And so why does God? You just said it's written
and you went to the first three verses of revelation one,
which is important for us to remember that we're supposed
to read this, we're supposed to understand it. So God
doesn't want to say, this is so spooky. I don't
want you to have anything to do with it. He
only gave us 66 books, every one of them inerrant, inspired, transcendent, immutable,
all God breathed God authored. So I don't take the
(41:29):
Book of revelation lightly, but it really is different from
any of the other books because one of your passions,
you one of your passions right now is eschatology. What
are some of the takeaways you think God wants us
to take from the Book of Revelation?
S7 (41:42):
Well, we need to remember that according to, again, the
first few verses of the book, it said that God
signed it to his servant John. The verb is camino,
which means that he communicated great truth to come using symbols.
and these symbols stand for true realities behind them. But
the symbols themselves are often mysterious and difficult, but with
(42:04):
adequate preparation and understanding and research and study. Those all
those visions are understandable to a significant degree. Not every
detail necessarily. Uh, and and so it's a wonderful and
rewarding book.
S8 (42:18):
Yeah.
S1 (42:19):
So because this is your passion and because I think
there are people who are curious but afraid to step
into it. How does one start with the book of Revelation?
What's the best way to read that book?
S7 (42:29):
Well, to read it from cover to cover for one thing,
to begin that way, and then remember that every other
verse in the book of Revelation, on average, is a
reference to Old Testament truth, an Old Testament person or
event or symbol or something. So the key to the
Book of Revelation is to know the Old Testament. It's
a prolific book that is deeply, deeply dependent upon the
(42:50):
Old Testament, but never quotes it explicitly. It's an amazing
phenomenon in itself.
S8 (42:56):
Yeah.
S1 (42:56):
Exactly right. And you cannot look at revelation without looking
at Ezekiel and Daniel. The intersection here is just unbelievably profound.
S8 (43:04):
So when.
S7 (43:05):
Well, you know. Well, let me just conclude here by
saying something else about the book of revelation, because it
ties into supernatural encounters very graphically and fully. And at
the end of the book, we're told that all of
this was written so that we could be ready for
the Lord's return. And so I cover the rapture there
because of its, uh, the invitation for Jesus to come quickly.
(43:28):
And it's tied. Then to first Thessalonians four and first
Corinthians 15. And I want to say to each of
your listeners that all the patterns I deal with in
the book, there's over 240, uh, different supernatural encounters. But
I ask three simple questions. What happened? What did it
mean then? And what does it mean now?
S1 (43:49):
And what a great way to end our conversation, James,
with questions that will make us go deeper, think better,
and get really into the Word of God. Let me
just tell our friends again the name of your new book.
It's called Supernatural Encounters Divine and Demonic, written by a
man who has taught the scriptures for decades and who
loves the Word of God. So if this is an
interest to you, and I don't know how, it can't
(44:09):
be an interest to every single one of us. It's
what we know a little bit of what we can't
see and yet is 1,000% reality. Now let that sink
in for a little bit. That's pretty interesting, isn't it? Again,
we just don't have those kinds of eyes. But boy,
the reality of the supernatural is all around us. Great
comfort in that. Greater is he that is in us
than he that is in the world. So this isn't
(44:30):
about being afraid. This is about understanding who's the victor,
who's the conqueror, and who is the one that sets
the captive free. James. Thank you. It is an absolutely
fascinating book. Again, I've got it on my website. If
you're interested in the market with Janet Parshall. Click on
the red box. It will take you to the information
page and you can learn how to get your own copy.
Doctor DeYoung, thank you for a great conversation. We'll see
(44:51):
you next time, friends.
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