May 27, 2025 • 44 mins
Why not just make the cake? That’s a question countless people across the country started asking in 2012, Jack Phillips told two men who walked into his Masterpiece Cakeshop that he couldn’t create a custom cake for their same-sex wedding. And the question only grew more urgent as he had to defend himself first before the Colorado Civil Rights Commission and then numerous courts—losing at every step of the way until the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in his favor in June 2018. But for Jack, there are deeper principles at stake—principles too precious to abandon for the sake of convenience and safety. These principles should be of concern to every American, including our guest’s adversaries. If the freedoms he has sought to protect are lost, they may never be regained.
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S1 (00:00):
Hi friend, thanks so much for downloading this broadcast and
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(00:20):
book of acts, and gives us ten principles of how
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magnificent book. It's a short book, and in typical Robert
Morgan writing style, it is a powerful book. I strongly
recommend that you have a copy of The Mediterranean Sea Rules,
because trust me, every single one of us will find
(00:40):
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(01:25):
the truth tool the Mediterranean Sea rules. Thanks so much.
And now please enjoy the broadcast. Hi friends. This is Janet. Partial.
Thanks so much for choosing to spend the next hour
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us and enjoy the broadcast.
S2 (01:47):
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3 (01:49):
The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4 (01:51):
Americans worshiping government over God.
S3 (01:53):
Extremely rare safety move by a major 17 years.
S4 (01:57):
The Palestinians and the Israelis negotiated.
S3 (01:59):
Idea is not.
S1 (02:15):
Hi, friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall.
You heard that cacophony in the marketplace of ideas. And
here's one thing you and I know for sure in
that busy place where ideas are bought and sold, a
lot of them shabby goods, artificial. Here's one topic that
is very robust nowadays, and that happens to be the
subject of religious liberty. Now, we talk about an awful
(02:38):
lot on this program. It is the peg on which
all other liberties hang. And if you're astute and you
raise your head above the cultural horizon and you look
around planet Earth, isn't it interesting that in those countries
where there is in fact no religious liberty, there likewise
is no freedom of press, freedom of assembly or freedom
of speech? There is this profound intersection between every aspect
(03:02):
of that precious and need to be protected First Amendment.
But all of that is good. It's absolute. It's constitutional.
There are cases being tried left, right and upside down
on a regular basis around this subject. You and I
have never seen such unfettered full court presses against the
idea of religious liberty, as we're seeing nowadays. But the
subtext of what we're going to talk about today is
(03:24):
not just religious liberty. It's very germane and as important
as it is. But a long time ago, a lot
of churches in America would have Sunday night services. Do
you remember that? If you do, you're as old as
I am. And on those Sunday night services, one of
the things that a lot of churches in America would
do is spend a lot of time in praise and worship,
and they would sing, sing. They got the sermon in
the morning and there might be a sermon on Sunday night,
(03:44):
but boy, there'd be a lot of singing on Sunday nights.
And one of the songs I remember as a church
kid growing up hearing on a regular basis, was, I've
decided to follow Jesus. No turning back, no turning back.
I got to tell you, that wasn't hard at all
to sing in a Sunday night. I Now walk outside
the front door of that church. Step into the raging
culture that is absolutely antagonistic toward anything dealing with the
(04:05):
Word of God or the person of Jesus Christ. And
now what does it mean? I have decided to follow Jesus?
No turning back. What does it mean to say no
to the world and yes to him? Are you willing
to count the cost? The idea that salvation is free
is marvelous, but it costs everything for Jesus Christ. It
sometimes will cost us a great deal as well. We've
(04:27):
been aligned with a suffering Savior who told us that
if we're persecuted for his name's sake, we get to
call that blessed. That doesn't make any sense from a
mortals perspective, but it's a profound biblical truth. So that's
the decision that one man made. He said it took
about 20s, and as a result of that, in his
own words, he said he went from being a quiet
cake artist with a strip mall cake shop in the
(04:49):
Denver suburb of Lakewood to an unlikely public figure who's
been interviewed by a national journalist, grilled by the women
on The View and Judged and psychoanalyzed by countless men
and women around kitchen tables and water coolers all across America.
He says his life's been threatened, his name defamed, and
his deepest beliefs judged by the Supreme Court of these
(05:10):
United States. Why? Because he said yes, Lord. Because he said,
I've decided to follow Jesus. No turning back, no turning back.
Jack Phillips is with us. His brand new book is out.
It's called The Cost of My Faith how a decision
in my cake shop took me to the Supreme Court. Jack,
the warmest of welcomes. Thank you for giving me something
I can't give back. It's an hour of your time.
(05:32):
It's irreplaceable. I can tell you this. There are people
listening from Guam to the Cayman Islands who have been
anxiously waiting to hear you. Because the Bible says, out
of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. And
they want to know something about you, Jack Phillips. And
I'm excited that we're going to discover who you are.
So thank you, Jack, for being here.
S5 (05:51):
Thanks for having me on, Janet. I'm really honored.
S1 (05:53):
The pleasure is all mine. And there's so many things
I want to ask you. ask you. First, I want
to know, how does a guy fall in love with baking?
S5 (06:00):
Well, um, initially I went to work in a bakery
because when I graduated high school, I needed a job.
And the man lived across one of the. One of
my neighbors lived across the street from me, owned a
large wholesale bakery with about a hundred employees, you know,
conveyor belts full of doughnuts and danishes and pies and cakes.
And he was gracious enough to hire me. And shortly
(06:20):
after I became acclimated to actually working for a living,
you know, like work two hours here, take a break,
go back two more hours and, you know, use a
time clock and all that. I found that I really,
really like baking. And I knew at some point that
I might open my own bakery someday.
S1 (06:35):
And that was your goal, was it not to someday say,
I'm going to open that bakery?
S5 (06:40):
Yeah. And then after a couple of years of working there, um,
this man bought out another bakery and they had cake decorators,
and he brought them into the shop. And I had
never seen that before. And I thought, this is what
I want to do, because God made me artistic and
I've always loved to draw and to paint and all
those kind of things. And I saw that these people
(07:00):
were not making a hundred cakes at a time. They
were making one cake at a time and one custom
cake at a time. And I thought, that's what I
want to do. Open a bakery where I can turn
a cake into my canvas and go from there.
S1 (07:12):
Let me linger on that, because I think that's hugely important,
and I think it's very germane to who you are.
So in other words, you don't use oils, you don't
use pastels, use fondant. And that's how you create. Is
that right?
S5 (07:25):
Yeah. Food colors and different kinds of icings. We use
paint brushes, palette knives. We sculpt cakes, you know, with
paring knives and serrated knives and, and, uh, a variety
of tools. Most of them are artistic.
S1 (07:38):
So that is your form of expression. And it's not
I heard you say that you like to paint too.
So which came first, the painting or the cake decorating?
S5 (07:46):
Uh, the painting. I always loved to draw and paint
as a as a kid. And, uh, when we, uh,
my wife and I sat down to decide what this
cake shop would look like? I already had the name
of it in mind, and that's masterpiece Cakeshop because masterpiece
says Art Cakeshop says cakes, you're not going to walk
in thinking that you're going to get a loaf of
bread or a pie. And my logo is also incorporating that,
(08:10):
and it's a paint palette with a paintbrush and a
French whisk, a cooking whisk. So it's art and cooking combined.
Art and baking combined.
S1 (08:20):
Wow. And there's no ambiguity about that at all. That
your form of expression, your free form of expression is
done on top of cakes as an artistic expression of
what you do.
S5 (08:31):
Yeah. Besides the logo saying masterpiece is art and cakeshop
is cake in my mind, I also separate the first
part of masterpiece to master to remind me of Jesus
Sermon on the Mount, where he said, no man can
serve two masters. And so as I come in through
the day, through the week, I think, who am I
(08:51):
going to serve today?
S3 (08:53):
Wow.
S1 (08:54):
Wow. The master. Well, I asked you about. When did
you fall in love with baking? When we come back, Jack,
I want to find out when you fell in love
with Jesus. Because you are who you are. Because of that,
Jack Phillips is with us. His name, a household name.
He became a symbol of what it means to fight
for religious liberty. And this man has set an example
for the rest of us. So I know, on behalf
of all of you listening, I'm saying thank you to
(09:15):
Jack for the example he set for the rest of
us back after this. When your plans collapse, make sure
you don't. That's just one of ten powerful principles in
this month's Truth Tool. The Mediterranean Sea Rules by Robert
(09:38):
Morgan draws life changing lessons from Paul's shipwreck recorded in acts.
Learn to navigate through the storm with faith and courage.
As for your copy of the Mediterranean Sea Rules, when
you give a gift of any amount to in the market,
call eight 7758, that's eight 7758 or go to in
the market with Janet Parshall. It's wonderful, isn't it? We've
(10:00):
talked so much about Jack and his case. It's a
marvelous opportunity for us now to talk with Jack, and
he is the man behind a brand new book, The
Cost of My Faith, which is very germane to our
conversation this hour. And the subtitle says so Much how
a decision in my cake shop took me to the
Supreme Court. And of course, the cake shop. Masterpiece Cake
Shop opened in 1993. So, Jack, tell me about your
(10:22):
growing up as a child. Were you raised in a
Christian home or your parents followers of Christ?
S5 (10:27):
Oh yeah. I was raised in a Christian home. My
family went to church pretty much every Sunday. And like
you were saying in the intro Sunday nights and Wednesdays
and we had, you know, wonderful times singing, um, but
the church stuff just never attached to me or I
never attached to it. And so by the time I
was like 17, I left the church. And, you know,
(10:47):
even if I wanted to go to church, by the
time I was working at the first bakery, um, I
worked on Sundays, so that wouldn't have happened.
S1 (10:55):
Mm. Wow. So when did this become very real to you?
Like me, you and I were both raised in Christian homes.
But that doesn't make us a Christian. We still have
to make that decision ourselves. How did that happen for you?
S5 (11:09):
Um, it was a few years later. I was 22,
23 years old. It was 1978, and I was working
nights at the bakery that I worked at. And, uh,
one morning I left my left the shift and was
headed home. Uh, a friend of mine asked me if
I wanted to go over to the bar across the
street for a beer, and I said, no, I think
I'll just head home today. All right. See you tomorrow.
(11:29):
So I hopped in my car and headed home. I
lived about nine miles from the bakery and it was
a beautiful, bright, sunny spring morning. I couldn't tell you
the date, but I know it was spring and I
know what happened that day. But as I was driving
home in my car, I suddenly felt like there was
a presence in my car. And I always want to
correct that, that it was a person in my car
(11:51):
and that person was the Holy Spirit. And suddenly this
conversation took place where the Holy Spirit convicted me of
my sin. And I want to say of my sin,
not my sins. Plural. Because I understood that stealing something
doesn't make you a thief. You're a thief. That's why
(12:11):
you steal. Or telling a lie doesn't make you a liar.
You're a liar. That's why you lie. And sinning doesn't
make you a sinner. You're a sinner already. That's why
you sin. And sin is anything that we do against
God and His his nature and his rule and rebellion
to him. And I knew right then that I was
a sinner, and that I would spend eternity away from
(12:32):
this God who loved me and created me and wanted
a relationship with me. And yet I wanted to negotiate.
And I told this God in my car. I said,
you know, let me clean myself. Clean me. Clean my
life up and you'll get a better deal. And his
response was, you can't. And I understood there was nothing
(12:52):
I could do to clean up my life, to earn
this salvation, or to be more pleasing to him. He
loved me the way I was, and he wanted to
take the punishment for my sins and put it on
His Son, Jesus. And I understood that all the Sunday
school lessons that I sat through as a child, everything
fell together. And I knew that this God came to
save me and rescue me. And I said, you're right,
(13:15):
I can't. I'm yours. And I became a Christian at
that moment in my car.
S1 (13:20):
Wow. And you remember.
S5 (13:21):
Also Jesus Christ, not not just a Christian. I became
a follower of Jesus. So yeah, I do remember it clearly.
It was an incredible, the most important event in my life. Wow.
S1 (13:32):
And no longer a religion or atmospherics in your home.
It was a personal relationship with the living God. Well,
you fall deeply in love with Debbie. You go to
have three kids. You're going to have to tell Debbie
you've made this decision. How'd that go?
S5 (13:44):
Yeah, we had two kids at the time. The third
one was yet to be to be announced. Um, but
as I realized what I'd just done in my car,
I know that I'm now two minutes from my home
and my wife Debbie, is going to be in our apartment,
and she's. The kids will probably be asleep. They were
very little, and the time of day it would be
nap time. And, uh, she probably wouldn't be all that
(14:06):
receptive to this new transformation in my life. And so
I went in and said hello and headed off to bed.
And like I said, I worked nights. This was coming
home from the night shift, and I would go to
bed and I would lay my head on the pillow
and I would just fall asleep immediately. I'm one of
those people that God's given the gift of sleep, I
guess if there is one. But this time I went
in and I greeted her and and you know, how
(14:28):
was your day? Whatever. Yeah, it was fine. I'm going
to bed. And I went into the bedroom. I laid
my head on the pillow, but this time I didn't
fall asleep and the Holy Spirit was telling me, go
tell Debbie what just happened. And I didn't think that
was a good idea. So I decided to negotiate again.
I said, well, yeah, I'll do that as soon as
I wake up this afternoon, get a good night's sleep.
I'll go tell her. No, go tell her now. No, no,
(14:50):
that's probably not a good idea. You know, Lord, because
she would probably leave me. And you might be thinking. What?
For that. Well, just a few weeks earlier, Debbie had
been invited to church by my sister in law, and
she blew up at my sister in law. Like, Christians
are hypocrites and all that kind of stuff. And really,
I think my sister in law probably never invited her
(15:11):
to church again. Probably never invited anybody to church again,
because that's not what you want to hear. You know,
an argument in calling you, you know, a hypocrite. But
I apparently had told Debbie. Well, why don't you go?
And so she went and she heard the gospel for
the first time. So when I went in and finally
got up out of bed. It's okay. God. I'll go
tell her now. And I went into the kitchen and
(15:32):
I said, she looks at me in surprise, like, what
are you doing awake? You should be out for the count.
And I looked at her and I became a Christian
today and expecting her to explode. Instead, I heard me two,
three days ago. Oh, now yeah. Wow. Now we have
something in common. And, you know, I was a good man.
(15:56):
I was working hard for a living. I was supporting
my kids. I wasn't a alcoholic or a drunk or
a child abuser or anything like that. I was just
a regular, decent guy, and I knew that I was
a sinner. And to have this happen to me was
just incredible. That now I've been redeemed and rescued and
have a relationship with the God of the universe, and
(16:17):
so does my wife. And it changed everything.
S1 (16:21):
Absolutely, absolutely. Wow. And to have that bond between the
two of you. So when we come back and again,
God does bless you with the third child. This Lisa,
as I understand it, helps a masterpiece. So there is
that family vision focus that's going on in the shop.
But you also had some ground rules. When you decided
to open masterpiece, you thought, we're going to make it
because master is in that word, because every day I
(16:43):
go and serve the master, I want my business conducted
in a particular way. Walk me through that, Jack. What
were some of the goals even before you opened the
doors for the first time? If whatever you do, you
were going to do heartily as unto the Lord. Baking
cakes falls under that canopy. What were some of the
ground rules? Jack Phillips is with us. His brand new
book is called The Cost of My Faith. How a
(17:05):
decision in my cake shop took me to the Supreme Court.
There's so much more to his story, so stick around
more after this. Jack Phillips opened Masterpiece Cake Shop in 1993,
(17:38):
and he tells his story that made him internationally known
in his book, The Cost of My Faith how a
Decision in my Cake shop took me to the Supreme Court.
So you decide in 1993 that you are going to
open Masterpiece Cakeshop. And as you shared beautifully with us
before Jack, you explained where that logo comes from, what
the meaning behind masterpiece and the master in the word
masterpiece means. And your desire was to walk in that
(18:01):
door and to serve him every day. But you and
Debbie talked and you said, we're going to have some
ground rules. Talk to me about that.
S5 (18:07):
Yeah, right from the start and the, you know, months
and years before we actually opened the money, while we
were putting open the bakery, while we were putting the
money aside, um, we had many discussions about it. And
included in those discussions were, you know, what kind of
cakes were we will we create not just vanilla or
chocolate or marble or whatever, but what kind of messages
will we create on cakes, you know, will we express, express?
(18:29):
And among those things would be we're not going to
create cakes that would be anti-American or that would be racist,
or would denigrate other people or insult other people. We
also decided we weren't going to create cakes to celebrate Halloween. But,
you know, these are just things that because my faith,
my faith compels me and to make all these decisions
(18:50):
and to honor God in the decisions that I make.
So also in those decisions were, uh, that we had
decided we wouldn't create cakes that would celebrate same sex marriage.
And you have to look back. This is 1993 that
we opened. So these conversations were happening in 91, 92.
That wasn't really on anybody's radar. In fact, Colorado's constitution
(19:12):
clearly defined marriage as one man and one woman and
how old you could be and all these things. So
it was just part of the conversation. But we knew
that we wouldn't be able to create a cake that
would celebrate a different view of marriage than the biblical view.
S1 (19:27):
Wow. You talked about also that a marijuana head shop
was in the same mall. They wanted you to make
some weed shaped cookies. You said no. You also closed
your door on Saturday because you wanted to honor the Sabbath.
So you went into the. You didn't make this up
as you went along. This was the grid through which
you pushed all of your decisions about how you would
run your business, correct?
S5 (19:47):
That's correct. We closed on Sunday, like you say. Um,
I don't wouldn't take orders for wedding cakes for Sunday
deliveries because then my employees would have to come in
and do that. And that's kind of the same thing
as me doing it. So yeah, we treat our employees
as the best way we can, and that's because of
our relationship with Christ. He's done so much for us
that we want to be able to reciprocate that and
(20:10):
be an example of his love to everybody who comes
in our employees, as well as as the customers who
come in.
S1 (20:18):
Wow. So let me go back to this idea of
your being an artist, because we talked earlier that your
medium of choice is fondant. It doesn't it's sugar, it's flour,
it's butter. It doesn't happen to be oils or pastels.
But if you were an artist who used oils and
pastels and someone came along and said, and I want
to take exactly what you just shared with me, I
(20:38):
want you to make a racist picture. Do you think
any artist who had a gallery in New York City
should be forced to paint a racist painting.
S5 (20:47):
I don't think an artist with a gallery in New
York City, or an artist who works out of his garage,
should be forced to create any message that, uh, they
don't agree with. And that's essentially what the government is
forcing us to do when we finally got to, uh, uh,
got to court in this first case.
S1 (21:04):
So it was a form from your vantage point, you
felt you were being coerced to say something that you
didn't want to say. And therefore, in the creation of
your art, to have to express something that you didn't believe.
S5 (21:16):
Absolutely. Say, if you were on a business trip and
you went to, uh, you were supposed to go to
the conference room and you forgot which conference room you
were supposed to go to. So you go down to
the lobby, and you open the door to one of
the rooms, and you saw a cake sitting on a
corner in the on a table in the corner. You
would know immediately that that was a wedding. It's not
a business meeting. It's not a meeting about cakes. You
know that there's a wedding taking place because the wedding
(21:38):
cake itself is an inherent message. It's iconic. We know
what a wedding cake stands for. And so for me
to be forced to create a wedding cake, whether there
were any words on it or not, I'm participating. Participating
in expressing my approval of a, of an event that
goes against my deeply religious beliefs. And so, because of
(21:59):
the message of that cake, we knew that we couldn't
create them. And then the state was going to force
us to.
S1 (22:04):
So before I take to what happened on that day
in July in 2012, let me just ask you a question, Jack.
You and I are talking freely and openly as brother
and sister in the Lord. You've explained the use of
the word masterpiece, and it's sort of double entendre masterpiece
as in an art masterpiece. But master as he is
Lord and master of your life, you are very open
(22:25):
about that to me. If I'm Joe Doe and I
live in the suburbs of Denver and I want to
make a cake, and I went to your website, what
I know based on anything that you had on that
website or signs that were posted in your shop that
you were a follower of Christ.
S5 (22:39):
Um, no. I have more signs in my shop now. Um,
my son makes some cool signs with his laser printer
and stuff, and I have those on display, and I've got, um,
my desk is in the storefront and bookshelves behind me
that contain Bibles, but you wouldn't walk in and say,
you know, this is a Christian bakery. Um, people have
told me that they knew that just from, I guess,
(23:01):
the way I treat them. But, uh, there's not an
inherent signage or anything like that that says, yes, this
is a Christian bakery. No, this is a Christian who
owns a bakery. So I want me to be the sign.
S1 (23:13):
I love that that's excellent. And as I noted earlier,
you wrote in the book that when that head shop
opened and they wanted you to make weed shaped cookies,
you said no. So you had said no to certain
requests before.
S5 (23:26):
Oh, like I said, we also decided at the beginning
that we wouldn't create cakes to celebrate Halloween. And so
every September October we get dozens or, you know, however
many requests to create cakes for Halloween. And so we
have to decline those because they also are, Our products
that we can't create because of our faith.
S1 (23:46):
Yeah, exactly. So in other words, before that fateful day
in 2012, you had said no before based on and
will use the legal jargon here, you're sincerely held religious beliefs.
That's important. I want to go back and I want
to talk about that fateful day in July in 2012.
I don't want to hear it from any media outlet.
I want to hear it from you. You were there.
You were a principal party. Tell me exactly what happened.
(24:08):
Jack tells you what happens and a whole lot more
in his brand new book, The Cost of My Faith
How a Decision in my Cake Shop took me to
the Supreme Court. A very important and timely read. Jack
sets an example for the rest of us back after this.
(24:35):
Ministry is never a solo effort. You know my voice
because I'm on the radio every day. Look a little
further and you'd see right into the homes of listeners
just like you. Partial partners who give a monthly gift
and make this ministry available. Become a member of the
team today by becoming a partial partner. Call eight 7758
or go online to in the market with Janet parshall.org.
(25:01):
What a treat to spend the hour with Jack Phillips. Yep,
that Jack Phillips of Masterpiece cake. And now you get
to know even more about the man, both through our
conversation this hour with Jack, but also through his new book,
The Cost of My Faith How a Decision in My
Cake Shop took me to the Supreme Court. I want
to go to that date in July of 2012. But Jack,
God very often sort of prepares us by upping, if
(25:23):
you will, the trials so that we get some spiritual muscle.
Excuse me before the next confrontation. Up to that time
in your life, what was the biggest trial you had
ever had in terms of your spiritual life?
S5 (25:36):
Um, probably, uh, being a good husband, uh, raising kids
was easy, I had good kids and I loved them
very much. And just my, you know, self-centered, selfish nature. Um,
I had to learn how to be a better husband
and and love my wife the way that I was
supposed to.
S1 (25:53):
Amen.
S5 (25:54):
So the war.
S1 (25:55):
The war? Yeah. The war within rather than the war without.
If I could put it that way. Wow. Yeah. So
that that day in July, you just you're you're doing
exactly what the Lord has called you to do. Praise God.
Your store is open. It's been open since 1993. The
year is now 2012. It's you. Your wife, your daughter.
Lisa is very creative, loves the shop, joins in the
(26:15):
work that you're doing. And in come two men. Tell
me what happened that day.
S5 (26:20):
Well, it was again a beautiful day here in Colorado.
It was a July afternoon, bright and sunny. Had two
employees working for me. They were both busy. Um, protocol
was they took care of the phones and the customers first.
If they're busy, then I was third in line and
I came out. So I came out and saw that
they were both busy. And there were two men sitting
at our wedding desk. Wedding desk is at a special
(26:42):
area we have set up for, you know, surrounded by
wedding cake displays. And and so I walked over and
sat down at the desk and I introduced myself. The
man on my right said, you know, he's David on
my left, Charlie and David said, big smile on his face.
You know, we're here to look at wedding cakes. And Charlie,
you know, grinning, also said, you know, it's for our wedding.
(27:02):
And I knew immediately that this was not a cake
that I could create, but what I did know was
how I would, you know, what words would actually come
out of my mouth. How would you know? Be gentle
and compassionate in saying, I can't serve you this cake?
You know, I'd be glad to serve you other things. Uh,
you're welcome in my store. And what I said was, sorry, guys,
I don't create cakes for same sex weddings. And they
(27:23):
both looked at me kind of stunned and said, you know,
didn't say anything like their eyes were. What? And I said,
you know, I'll make you cookies. Brownies. So you birthday cakes,
shower cakes. I just don't create cakes for same sex weddings.
At which point David on my right jumped up, flipped
me off, started swearing, swore all the way out the door,
and Charlie picked up his. He had a folder with
(27:44):
him with wedding cake ideas and went over. And there
was a woman sitting at a table that I hadn't noticed,
and they left together. Turned out later I found out
she was his mom. But just like that, 20s 19
words and my life turned upside down.
S1 (28:00):
Wow. God hasn't given us a spirit of fear, but power, love,
and of a sound mind. They walked out the door.
What was your next thought?
S5 (28:08):
My next thought was I was just stunned. I'd never
had anything like that happen before. We'd had people come
in 4 or 5 times asking for same sex wedding
cakes and ceremony cakes, and and we declined to create those.
And we had a chance to talk. These two men
didn't give me a chance to explain anything other than
what I hoped. I had clearly said, you know, I
will serve you, you know, gladly I will make other
(28:29):
custom cakes for you. I just can't create this one
to celebrate a same sex marriage. And, uh, that they
didn't get that or didn't give me a chance to
talk about it. So they stormed out. About 20 minutes later,
I get a phone call saying, are you the baker
who just turned away a gay couple? I'm like, what?
You just turned away a gay couple. I said, no,
I would never turn away anybody. Somebody asked me for
(28:50):
a cake that I couldn't create. You know, the phone
goes dead with a bunch of profanity. What in the
world was that? And then the phone rang again and
again and again. And this is like, 430, 4:45. And
we closed at six, and I got like six phone
calls like that right away. Just hateful calls. I was stunned,
so kind of wondering what was going on. I closed
(29:13):
the shop that night. I headed to the grocery store thinking,
everybody in the world hates me. I was already getting
hateful emails. I walked into the grocery store and then
that's when the verse came to me. God has not
given us a spirit of fear, but of love and
of power and of a sound mind. And I knew
right then God was in control of all this. And
so from that moment to this, I've never had any
(29:34):
doubt about what happened, or any I should have done that,
should have done this. Should I have I've done that.
I did what I should have done, and I tried
to honor God in the way that I handled it.
And there we are.
S1 (29:45):
Wow. You know, Jack, he reminds us in his word
that his sufficient grace is there for our our use
every single day. And his tender mercies are renewed at
that moment when you're in the grocery store and God.
God's word gets recalled again. And I love the way
the Holy Spirit does that. You didn't have a clue
how long this was going to be. Not a 50
yard dash. This was going to be a marathon. You
(30:07):
didn't have a clue how long you were going to
have to press into him, because this was going to
be an extrapolated journey from that grocery store experience. When
did you realize, uh oh, this is more than just
some hateful phone calls?
S5 (30:21):
Well, the following Monday and Tuesday, I got connected with
the Alliance Defending Freedom, the attorneys who have represented us
all this time. And I'd like to add that they've
done just a remarkable job. They worked with us, they've
supported us, they've encouraged us, and they've done it all
pro bono. They run. They haven't charged me a dime,
but they run on donations, so people need to donate
(30:41):
to them because they're not only fighting for my freedom.
I realize this three or 4 or 5 years ago,
it's not important whether Jack ever makes another cake. This
is important for every American, because every American should be
free to live and work according to their conscience, without
fear of punishment from the government. Anyway, um, yeah, we
were connected with them right away. And then it was, uh,
(31:02):
a few weeks later, in October, from July to September
or October, that I actually was served with the notice
from the state that I was being sued.
S1 (31:10):
Wow. What went through your mind when that happened?
S5 (31:13):
Um, I was expecting it by then because early on
the first week or two, uh, the two men had
staged protests outside of our shop and called the media
in and then said, they're coming back the next week
with a much larger protest and more media. And so, um,
the media came and, and, uh, you know, one of
the reporters asked me, do you know that you're in
violation of Colorado statute number, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah?
(31:36):
I said, never heard of such a thing. And, uh,
so I knew that there was at least some basis
for the state stretching a law to include this, you know,
sexual orientation as part of their, uh, charge. And so
when it came, I was I was not uninformed or
surprised that it was on its way, just that it
could happen, you know, because the state, the government is
(31:57):
supposed to protect these rights, they don't give them and
take them away. They're supposed to protect the rights that
God has given us. And so this hostility from the
government was completely unexpected.
S1 (32:07):
Yeah, yeah. Enter that 50 cent word that we never
use unless we're talking about the Constitution, those inalienable rights
given to us not by government, but by God and
government's job is to protect them. So, Jack, in the
midst of all of this, you're not only just fighting
this ground on terra firma where you're getting the pushback,
the intimidation and and your opinion. Did you feel it
(32:29):
was intimidation if they were picketing outside your store?
S5 (32:32):
Uh, they were trying to. Yeah, I would I mean,
you don't go picking somebody because you want to show
them how much you appreciate them, but they wanted to
shut us down. And the same way as this, you know,
the later lawsuits go.
S1 (32:46):
Exactly. So, Jack, the question you raised the question in
the book. And it's interesting because as people have talked
about this case literally around the globe, you know, that
people have said, why don't you just make the cake?
It would have been easy. It wouldn't have had this problem,
and you wouldn't have gone into the deep end of
the pool where it was all hot water anyway. What
would you say?
S5 (33:05):
Um, back to what I said earlier that before we
opened up the shop, my wife and I drew our
lines in the sand, and those lines haven't changed. And
if the same situation came up again today, we would
have to stand by them and let the chips fall
where they may. If the state put us out of business,
then I find something else to do. But I don't
want to dishonor my God and my faith and my
(33:25):
family in, uh, surrendering what I believe in.
S1 (33:29):
Yes. Amen to that. You know that people have talked
about this. And when we've raised the question of your
case on this program, we would sometimes hear from callers
who would say, I would have made the cake, because
that would have been my way of showing the love
of Jesus to them. What would you say in response?
S5 (33:45):
I would have to disagree, because I don't see Jesus
doing something that goes against what I believe the Bible teaches.
He wouldn't go against his own self, his own words,
and his own teaching.
S1 (33:55):
Yeah, so it would have been contradictory that there comes
a time where you have to say this far and
no farther.
S5 (34:02):
Right. Absolutely.
S1 (34:04):
So you've got it at the state level. This works
its way eventually all the way to the Supreme Court.
How do you find the strength to persevere? Because this
is draining on your marriage. It's draining on your family.
It's draining on your business. You could have a thousand
times said if only dot, dot, dot, but you didn't.
God gave you that sense of peace that moment after
it happened. How did you find the strength to put
(34:26):
one foot in front of the other and keep doing this?
S5 (34:28):
Well, um, the Bible says in Second Chronicles 19 1609
that the eyes of the Lord range to and fro
throughout the earth, to show himself strong or to strengthen,
depending on which version, to strengthen the man whose heart
is fully committed to him. And he's given us the
strength that we need, and he's shown himself strong through
these things. So all along he's reassured us and and
(34:51):
let us know that this is not our battle. This
is his battle. Even though, you know, the government is
trying to force me to express messages that I shouldn't
have to, um, he's there to supply the needs Alliance,
defending freedom, encouraging friends. Um, so we knew that we
were doing what we needed to do. And the battle
is his, not ours.
S1 (35:12):
Yeah. Amen to that. Jack. I want to take a break.
And you know, nothing is wasted in God's classroom. And
very often when a platform is created, he gives us
the opportunity to bring honor and glory and fame to him.
I want to know, in this long pilgrimage that you've
been on with since the masterpiece Cakeshop v Colorado Civil
Rights Commission case was started. What opportunities has the Lord
(35:36):
afforded you to be able to let your light so shine,
as people have heard what you have to say? You
said openly, I'll serve you anything. It's just that I
can't do this cake because marriage is sacrosanct and the
Word of God, it's separate. It's special. There's a mystery
between a man and a wife, and I can't rewrite
what God has already said. So it wasn't about pushing
people aside. It was about being disobedient to God. From
(35:58):
your perspective, I want to know how you were able
to get that message across. Jack's book is called The
Cost of My Faith how a decision in my cake
shop took me to the Supreme Court. Jack Phillips is
(36:23):
with us. He is the man behind Masterpiece Cake Shop
and the stuff of Supreme Court cases. His book is
out now. It's called The Cost of My Faith. Let
those words fall down through your ears, into your heart.
There is a cost of discipleship. Jesus paid it all.
All to him I owe. Remember the old hymn? So
Jack tells his story of his faith and his walk
(36:45):
with the Lord. And it is amazing. It is an
eye opener, and I think God is using Jack in
a very powerful way to take a church that practices
a kind of cushy, Americanized Christianity and say, listen, you've
never realized what persecution is like, but that day may
come and you'd better be ready. Could you? In 20s,
just like Jack did when he was challenged on that
day in 2012, be able to give a reason for
(37:06):
the hope that resides within you by saying, I cannot
do that. I cannot make a cake that celebrates same
sex marriage, and the rest is now legal history. So, Jack,
God has opened the door because your story took a
long time to tell. And there's still more to this story.
What opportunities has he afforded you to be, to be
able to point the way to him and to tell
your story and your testimony?
S5 (37:28):
Well, besides being able to use the cost of my
faith to tell my story, he's also. We're still in court. Um,
just back in March, we had a trial for our
third lawsuit where an attorney here in Colorado has asked
us to create a cake to celebrate a gender transition.
Blue on the outside and pink on the inside to
celebrate changing from a man to a woman. And so
(37:49):
we were in the in the court back in March,
and now we're waiting for the judge to announce his
decision on that. But during the whole the last year
and a half, getting to that point where the trial,
I had a face to face meeting with this attorney
who promised me that if I were to win this
case or if, you know, were thrown out on a technicality,
I would get a phone call the very next day
(38:11):
asking for another cake, and we would start all over again.
And this was not just in a face to face meeting.
This was under oath in the courtroom. So God's given
me the opportunity to use those examples of, you know,
this this person also asked that a few years ago
for a cake with Satan smoking a marijuana joint. And, uh, he's,
(38:31):
you know, these are cakes that I can't create because
of the message. And I shouldn't be able shouldn't be
forced to express any message. Um, but it's also given
me the opportunity to, uh, meet so many other people,
you know, customers coming in to express support. And I've met, um,
we had a man come in. There was a radio
station doing a show here shortly after the protest days.
(38:52):
And one of the first people that came in that
day was a former gay activist who came in. She
wanted to know who was this man who wouldn't create
a who wouldn't sell a cake to a gay couple?
We've become friends since then, you know, because he knows
who I am and that I can't create a cake
that goes against my message. And he wouldn't ask me to,
but he knows if I ask him to. If he
asked me to create a cake for another celebration that
I would create, I would gladly do it. Because it's
(39:13):
always the message of the cake that I'm judging, not
the person. Uh, I'd love to serve people. That's why
I went into retail in the first place.
S6 (39:21):
Oh, wow. Jack, that's so powerful.
S1 (39:24):
So again, you've. There isn't any question that you seem
to be the object of disdain that one way or another,
people want to shut you down, damage you financially, make
your business go away. Make you pay a price, extract.
If I can take the words of Shakespeare, a pound
of flesh. And yet you keep going. What message for
a frightened church in America? What message would you tell them?
S5 (39:47):
Well, one thing that I think I might have even
said here, that you have to draw a line in
the sand and be willing to stand for it, but
it has to be a line that's that's worth standing
for in Jesus Christ is. And not only do I
have to stand for him, he enables me. He gives
me the power to stand for him. And so it
becomes a lot easier if you just realize that you're
on the winning side, that he's going to prove victorious
(40:10):
in all these battles, and he's going to grant you
the peace and the strength and wisdom that you need.
S6 (40:16):
Wow.
S1 (40:16):
So, Jack, even in this next phase of litigation, even
if the results are not what you want them to
be because you were obedient to him, do you still
define that as a victory?
S5 (40:28):
I do. Um. When the two men walked out of
my shop back in July of 2012. And I'm thinking,
you know, if this goes really bad and I lose everything,
that's fine. I would rather lose everything doing what's right
than keep everything. And it's kind of like Jim Elliott saying,
you know, it's, uh, never mind. It's better to serve,
(40:49):
you know what I'm saying? If you can fill it
in for me.
S1 (40:52):
But yes.
S5 (40:53):
He's no fool who gains what he cannot lose to,
you know, gives up what he cannot keep to gain
what he cannot lose. That's it. Sorry about that. Um.
S1 (41:01):
But you got it. That's exactly right. Yeah.
S5 (41:04):
But following Christ is the best thing to do.
S1 (41:08):
The title of the book, The Cost of My Faith,
that I find that to be so appropriate and such
a tutorial. Because what you are saying declaratively is that
there is a cost in following Jesus. Talk to me
about that.
S5 (41:22):
Um, you know, there is. We have to give up
the the temptations of the world. We've got the media.
We've got everybody telling us we need this and we
need that, and we need to look like this or that.
But the reality is we just need Jesus, his peace
in our in our lives and in our hearts. And
when we are obedient to him, he gives what we
need the fruits of the spirit love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness,
(41:45):
and self-control. They're not fruits for the spirit. They're fruits
of the spirit. They're things that he gives us from him.
They're not things we do for him. And so he's
blessed us with that in so many, so many different times,
so many different ways.
S1 (42:01):
Well, you anticipated my question, Jack, which is there's no
question that this is made legal history. They'll be reading
about this in law schools all across America. But what
has it done for you spiritually? Has it caused you
to spend more time in the word? Are you and
Debbie closer spiritually than you've ever been before? You know
your battle is not two men who walked into the store.
Ephesians six reminds us that. So what has this done
(42:22):
to your spiritual life?
S5 (42:24):
Yeah, Ephesians six says, we're not wrestling against flesh and blood,
but against powers and those things just to make that clear.
But it's drawn my wife and I closer together and
and yes, I am much more in tune with the word. Um,
I'm reminded of Jesus parable that, uh, the ten virgins
that when the bridegroom is coming, 5 or 5 were prepared,
(42:45):
five were not prepared, but all ten were asleep. And
I'm sure that I was sleepwalking. And the preparedness that
I had was God showing me the the Halloween things
and all those other things. So I'd be ready to
give an answer when they came. So he's been good
that way.
S7 (43:00):
Amen.
S1 (43:01):
Jack, you just said something very important. And that is
perhaps God is using your story and your life as
an alarm clock, that we are basically sleepwalking in so
many ways that the persecution that our brothers and sisters
experience overseas is an overseas problem. It's not a problem here.
And yet all one has to do is poke their
head out of their little tent and see that the
winds are howling, and that there's a marked animosity against
(43:22):
those of us who declare publicly that Jesus is Savior
and Lord in our life. I believe God is using
you as an example, and you have been steadfast. And
I want to tell you something else. I want you
to know that people listening to your conversation today are
also people who believe in the power of prayer you
just talked about. Here we go again, another round of litigation.
You're in more than capable hands with ADF, and we
(43:42):
praise God for their legal acumen and their free representation.
For you. And I have a website so people can
learn more and contribute. It's right there on my website
as well, so check that out. If you're moved by
Jack's case, then pray and act and there's an opportunity
to do it with the website there. But Jack, I
want you to know people are going to be lifting
you up in prayer, that you don't get battle weary,
(44:02):
that your marriage remains strong, that God puts a hedge
of protection around your life, that he makes you bold
on the outside, but a tender heart on the inside.
In the midst of all of this, you have been
exemplary to us. And again, I want to end the
way we started. Thank you, Jack, so much for who
you are in Christ. I look forward to spending eternity
with you. We'll see you next time, friends.
Hi friend, thanks so much for downloading this broadcast and
it is my hope that you'll hear something that will
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out into the marketplace of ideas. But before you start listening,
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because he's such a superb writer, and in this particular book,
he takes the story of Paul's shipwreck, recorded in the
(00:20):
book of acts, and gives us ten principles of how
we push through the storm, learning to trust in God
and all that he has done for us. It's a
magnificent book. It's a short book, and in typical Robert
Morgan writing style, it is a powerful book. I strongly
recommend that you have a copy of The Mediterranean Sea Rules,
because trust me, every single one of us will find
(00:40):
ourselves on stormy seas at some point in our voyage
through life. As for your copy of the Mediterranean Sea
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(01:03):
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(01:25):
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And now please enjoy the broadcast. Hi friends. This is Janet. Partial.
Thanks so much for choosing to spend the next hour
with us. Today's program is prerecorded so our phone lines
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us and enjoy the broadcast.
S2 (01:47):
Here are some of the news headlines we're watching.
S3 (01:49):
The conference was over. The president won a pledge.
S4 (01:51):
Americans worshiping government over God.
S3 (01:53):
Extremely rare safety move by a major 17 years.
S4 (01:57):
The Palestinians and the Israelis negotiated.
S3 (01:59):
Idea is not.
S1 (02:15):
Hi, friends. Welcome to In the Market with Janet Parshall.
You heard that cacophony in the marketplace of ideas. And
here's one thing you and I know for sure in
that busy place where ideas are bought and sold, a
lot of them shabby goods, artificial. Here's one topic that
is very robust nowadays, and that happens to be the
subject of religious liberty. Now, we talk about an awful
(02:38):
lot on this program. It is the peg on which
all other liberties hang. And if you're astute and you
raise your head above the cultural horizon and you look
around planet Earth, isn't it interesting that in those countries
where there is in fact no religious liberty, there likewise
is no freedom of press, freedom of assembly or freedom
of speech? There is this profound intersection between every aspect
(03:02):
of that precious and need to be protected First Amendment.
But all of that is good. It's absolute. It's constitutional.
There are cases being tried left, right and upside down
on a regular basis around this subject. You and I
have never seen such unfettered full court presses against the
idea of religious liberty, as we're seeing nowadays. But the
subtext of what we're going to talk about today is
(03:24):
not just religious liberty. It's very germane and as important
as it is. But a long time ago, a lot
of churches in America would have Sunday night services. Do
you remember that? If you do, you're as old as
I am. And on those Sunday night services, one of
the things that a lot of churches in America would
do is spend a lot of time in praise and worship,
and they would sing, sing. They got the sermon in
the morning and there might be a sermon on Sunday night,
(03:44):
but boy, there'd be a lot of singing on Sunday nights.
And one of the songs I remember as a church
kid growing up hearing on a regular basis, was, I've
decided to follow Jesus. No turning back, no turning back.
I got to tell you, that wasn't hard at all
to sing in a Sunday night. I Now walk outside
the front door of that church. Step into the raging
culture that is absolutely antagonistic toward anything dealing with the
(04:05):
Word of God or the person of Jesus Christ. And
now what does it mean? I have decided to follow Jesus?
No turning back. What does it mean to say no
to the world and yes to him? Are you willing
to count the cost? The idea that salvation is free
is marvelous, but it costs everything for Jesus Christ. It
sometimes will cost us a great deal as well. We've
(04:27):
been aligned with a suffering Savior who told us that
if we're persecuted for his name's sake, we get to
call that blessed. That doesn't make any sense from a
mortals perspective, but it's a profound biblical truth. So that's
the decision that one man made. He said it took
about 20s, and as a result of that, in his
own words, he said he went from being a quiet
cake artist with a strip mall cake shop in the
(04:49):
Denver suburb of Lakewood to an unlikely public figure who's
been interviewed by a national journalist, grilled by the women
on The View and Judged and psychoanalyzed by countless men
and women around kitchen tables and water coolers all across America.
He says his life's been threatened, his name defamed, and
his deepest beliefs judged by the Supreme Court of these
(05:10):
United States. Why? Because he said yes, Lord. Because he said,
I've decided to follow Jesus. No turning back, no turning back.
Jack Phillips is with us. His brand new book is out.
It's called The Cost of My Faith how a decision
in my cake shop took me to the Supreme Court. Jack,
the warmest of welcomes. Thank you for giving me something
I can't give back. It's an hour of your time.
(05:32):
It's irreplaceable. I can tell you this. There are people
listening from Guam to the Cayman Islands who have been
anxiously waiting to hear you. Because the Bible says, out
of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. And
they want to know something about you, Jack Phillips. And
I'm excited that we're going to discover who you are.
So thank you, Jack, for being here.
S5 (05:51):
Thanks for having me on, Janet. I'm really honored.
S1 (05:53):
The pleasure is all mine. And there's so many things
I want to ask you. ask you. First, I want
to know, how does a guy fall in love with baking?
S5 (06:00):
Well, um, initially I went to work in a bakery
because when I graduated high school, I needed a job.
And the man lived across one of the. One of
my neighbors lived across the street from me, owned a
large wholesale bakery with about a hundred employees, you know,
conveyor belts full of doughnuts and danishes and pies and cakes.
And he was gracious enough to hire me. And shortly
(06:20):
after I became acclimated to actually working for a living,
you know, like work two hours here, take a break,
go back two more hours and, you know, use a
time clock and all that. I found that I really,
really like baking. And I knew at some point that
I might open my own bakery someday.
S1 (06:35):
And that was your goal, was it not to someday say,
I'm going to open that bakery?
S5 (06:40):
Yeah. And then after a couple of years of working there, um,
this man bought out another bakery and they had cake decorators,
and he brought them into the shop. And I had
never seen that before. And I thought, this is what
I want to do, because God made me artistic and
I've always loved to draw and to paint and all
those kind of things. And I saw that these people
(07:00):
were not making a hundred cakes at a time. They
were making one cake at a time and one custom
cake at a time. And I thought, that's what I
want to do. Open a bakery where I can turn
a cake into my canvas and go from there.
S1 (07:12):
Let me linger on that, because I think that's hugely important,
and I think it's very germane to who you are.
So in other words, you don't use oils, you don't
use pastels, use fondant. And that's how you create. Is
that right?
S5 (07:25):
Yeah. Food colors and different kinds of icings. We use
paint brushes, palette knives. We sculpt cakes, you know, with
paring knives and serrated knives and, and, uh, a variety
of tools. Most of them are artistic.
S1 (07:38):
So that is your form of expression. And it's not
I heard you say that you like to paint too.
So which came first, the painting or the cake decorating?
S5 (07:46):
Uh, the painting. I always loved to draw and paint
as a as a kid. And, uh, when we, uh,
my wife and I sat down to decide what this
cake shop would look like? I already had the name
of it in mind, and that's masterpiece Cakeshop because masterpiece
says Art Cakeshop says cakes, you're not going to walk
in thinking that you're going to get a loaf of
bread or a pie. And my logo is also incorporating that,
(08:10):
and it's a paint palette with a paintbrush and a
French whisk, a cooking whisk. So it's art and cooking combined.
Art and baking combined.
S1 (08:20):
Wow. And there's no ambiguity about that at all. That
your form of expression, your free form of expression is
done on top of cakes as an artistic expression of
what you do.
S5 (08:31):
Yeah. Besides the logo saying masterpiece is art and cakeshop
is cake in my mind, I also separate the first
part of masterpiece to master to remind me of Jesus
Sermon on the Mount, where he said, no man can
serve two masters. And so as I come in through
the day, through the week, I think, who am I
(08:51):
going to serve today?
S3 (08:53):
Wow.
S1 (08:54):
Wow. The master. Well, I asked you about. When did
you fall in love with baking? When we come back, Jack,
I want to find out when you fell in love
with Jesus. Because you are who you are. Because of that,
Jack Phillips is with us. His name, a household name.
He became a symbol of what it means to fight
for religious liberty. And this man has set an example
for the rest of us. So I know, on behalf
of all of you listening, I'm saying thank you to
(09:15):
Jack for the example he set for the rest of
us back after this. When your plans collapse, make sure
you don't. That's just one of ten powerful principles in
this month's Truth Tool. The Mediterranean Sea Rules by Robert
(09:38):
Morgan draws life changing lessons from Paul's shipwreck recorded in acts.
Learn to navigate through the storm with faith and courage.
As for your copy of the Mediterranean Sea Rules, when
you give a gift of any amount to in the market,
call eight 7758, that's eight 7758 or go to in
the market with Janet Parshall. It's wonderful, isn't it? We've
(10:00):
talked so much about Jack and his case. It's a
marvelous opportunity for us now to talk with Jack, and
he is the man behind a brand new book, The
Cost of My Faith, which is very germane to our
conversation this hour. And the subtitle says so Much how
a decision in my cake shop took me to the
Supreme Court. And of course, the cake shop. Masterpiece Cake
Shop opened in 1993. So, Jack, tell me about your
(10:22):
growing up as a child. Were you raised in a
Christian home or your parents followers of Christ?
S5 (10:27):
Oh yeah. I was raised in a Christian home. My
family went to church pretty much every Sunday. And like
you were saying in the intro Sunday nights and Wednesdays
and we had, you know, wonderful times singing, um, but
the church stuff just never attached to me or I
never attached to it. And so by the time I
was like 17, I left the church. And, you know,
(10:47):
even if I wanted to go to church, by the
time I was working at the first bakery, um, I
worked on Sundays, so that wouldn't have happened.
S1 (10:55):
Mm. Wow. So when did this become very real to you?
Like me, you and I were both raised in Christian homes.
But that doesn't make us a Christian. We still have
to make that decision ourselves. How did that happen for you?
S5 (11:09):
Um, it was a few years later. I was 22,
23 years old. It was 1978, and I was working
nights at the bakery that I worked at. And, uh,
one morning I left my left the shift and was
headed home. Uh, a friend of mine asked me if
I wanted to go over to the bar across the
street for a beer, and I said, no, I think
I'll just head home today. All right. See you tomorrow.
(11:29):
So I hopped in my car and headed home. I
lived about nine miles from the bakery and it was
a beautiful, bright, sunny spring morning. I couldn't tell you
the date, but I know it was spring and I
know what happened that day. But as I was driving
home in my car, I suddenly felt like there was
a presence in my car. And I always want to
correct that, that it was a person in my car
(11:51):
and that person was the Holy Spirit. And suddenly this
conversation took place where the Holy Spirit convicted me of
my sin. And I want to say of my sin,
not my sins. Plural. Because I understood that stealing something
doesn't make you a thief. You're a thief. That's why
(12:11):
you steal. Or telling a lie doesn't make you a liar.
You're a liar. That's why you lie. And sinning doesn't
make you a sinner. You're a sinner already. That's why
you sin. And sin is anything that we do against
God and His his nature and his rule and rebellion
to him. And I knew right then that I was
a sinner, and that I would spend eternity away from
(12:32):
this God who loved me and created me and wanted
a relationship with me. And yet I wanted to negotiate.
And I told this God in my car. I said,
you know, let me clean myself. Clean me. Clean my
life up and you'll get a better deal. And his
response was, you can't. And I understood there was nothing
(12:52):
I could do to clean up my life, to earn
this salvation, or to be more pleasing to him. He
loved me the way I was, and he wanted to
take the punishment for my sins and put it on
His Son, Jesus. And I understood that all the Sunday
school lessons that I sat through as a child, everything
fell together. And I knew that this God came to
save me and rescue me. And I said, you're right,
(13:15):
I can't. I'm yours. And I became a Christian at
that moment in my car.
S1 (13:20):
Wow. And you remember.
S5 (13:21):
Also Jesus Christ, not not just a Christian. I became
a follower of Jesus. So yeah, I do remember it clearly.
It was an incredible, the most important event in my life. Wow.
S1 (13:32):
And no longer a religion or atmospherics in your home.
It was a personal relationship with the living God. Well,
you fall deeply in love with Debbie. You go to
have three kids. You're going to have to tell Debbie
you've made this decision. How'd that go?
S5 (13:44):
Yeah, we had two kids at the time. The third
one was yet to be to be announced. Um, but
as I realized what I'd just done in my car,
I know that I'm now two minutes from my home
and my wife Debbie, is going to be in our apartment,
and she's. The kids will probably be asleep. They were
very little, and the time of day it would be
nap time. And, uh, she probably wouldn't be all that
(14:06):
receptive to this new transformation in my life. And so
I went in and said hello and headed off to bed.
And like I said, I worked nights. This was coming
home from the night shift, and I would go to
bed and I would lay my head on the pillow
and I would just fall asleep immediately. I'm one of
those people that God's given the gift of sleep, I
guess if there is one. But this time I went
in and I greeted her and and you know, how
(14:28):
was your day? Whatever. Yeah, it was fine. I'm going
to bed. And I went into the bedroom. I laid
my head on the pillow, but this time I didn't
fall asleep and the Holy Spirit was telling me, go
tell Debbie what just happened. And I didn't think that
was a good idea. So I decided to negotiate again.
I said, well, yeah, I'll do that as soon as
I wake up this afternoon, get a good night's sleep.
I'll go tell her. No, go tell her now. No, no,
(14:50):
that's probably not a good idea. You know, Lord, because
she would probably leave me. And you might be thinking. What?
For that. Well, just a few weeks earlier, Debbie had
been invited to church by my sister in law, and
she blew up at my sister in law. Like, Christians
are hypocrites and all that kind of stuff. And really,
I think my sister in law probably never invited her
(15:11):
to church again. Probably never invited anybody to church again,
because that's not what you want to hear. You know,
an argument in calling you, you know, a hypocrite. But
I apparently had told Debbie. Well, why don't you go?
And so she went and she heard the gospel for
the first time. So when I went in and finally
got up out of bed. It's okay. God. I'll go
tell her now. And I went into the kitchen and
(15:32):
I said, she looks at me in surprise, like, what
are you doing awake? You should be out for the count.
And I looked at her and I became a Christian
today and expecting her to explode. Instead, I heard me two,
three days ago. Oh, now yeah. Wow. Now we have
something in common. And, you know, I was a good man.
(15:56):
I was working hard for a living. I was supporting
my kids. I wasn't a alcoholic or a drunk or
a child abuser or anything like that. I was just
a regular, decent guy, and I knew that I was
a sinner. And to have this happen to me was
just incredible. That now I've been redeemed and rescued and
have a relationship with the God of the universe, and
(16:17):
so does my wife. And it changed everything.
S1 (16:21):
Absolutely, absolutely. Wow. And to have that bond between the
two of you. So when we come back and again,
God does bless you with the third child. This Lisa,
as I understand it, helps a masterpiece. So there is
that family vision focus that's going on in the shop.
But you also had some ground rules. When you decided
to open masterpiece, you thought, we're going to make it
because master is in that word, because every day I
(16:43):
go and serve the master, I want my business conducted
in a particular way. Walk me through that, Jack. What
were some of the goals even before you opened the
doors for the first time? If whatever you do, you
were going to do heartily as unto the Lord. Baking
cakes falls under that canopy. What were some of the
ground rules? Jack Phillips is with us. His brand new
book is called The Cost of My Faith. How a
(17:05):
decision in my cake shop took me to the Supreme Court.
There's so much more to his story, so stick around
more after this. Jack Phillips opened Masterpiece Cake Shop in 1993,
(17:38):
and he tells his story that made him internationally known
in his book, The Cost of My Faith how a
Decision in my Cake shop took me to the Supreme Court.
So you decide in 1993 that you are going to
open Masterpiece Cakeshop. And as you shared beautifully with us
before Jack, you explained where that logo comes from, what
the meaning behind masterpiece and the master in the word
masterpiece means. And your desire was to walk in that
(18:01):
door and to serve him every day. But you and
Debbie talked and you said, we're going to have some
ground rules. Talk to me about that.
S5 (18:07):
Yeah, right from the start and the, you know, months
and years before we actually opened the money, while we
were putting open the bakery, while we were putting the
money aside, um, we had many discussions about it. And
included in those discussions were, you know, what kind of
cakes were we will we create not just vanilla or
chocolate or marble or whatever, but what kind of messages
will we create on cakes, you know, will we express, express?
(18:29):
And among those things would be we're not going to
create cakes that would be anti-American or that would be racist,
or would denigrate other people or insult other people. We
also decided we weren't going to create cakes to celebrate Halloween. But,
you know, these are just things that because my faith,
my faith compels me and to make all these decisions
(18:50):
and to honor God in the decisions that I make.
So also in those decisions were, uh, that we had
decided we wouldn't create cakes that would celebrate same sex marriage.
And you have to look back. This is 1993 that
we opened. So these conversations were happening in 91, 92.
That wasn't really on anybody's radar. In fact, Colorado's constitution
(19:12):
clearly defined marriage as one man and one woman and
how old you could be and all these things. So
it was just part of the conversation. But we knew
that we wouldn't be able to create a cake that
would celebrate a different view of marriage than the biblical view.
S1 (19:27):
Wow. You talked about also that a marijuana head shop
was in the same mall. They wanted you to make
some weed shaped cookies. You said no. You also closed
your door on Saturday because you wanted to honor the Sabbath.
So you went into the. You didn't make this up
as you went along. This was the grid through which
you pushed all of your decisions about how you would
run your business, correct?
S5 (19:47):
That's correct. We closed on Sunday, like you say. Um,
I don't wouldn't take orders for wedding cakes for Sunday
deliveries because then my employees would have to come in
and do that. And that's kind of the same thing
as me doing it. So yeah, we treat our employees
as the best way we can, and that's because of
our relationship with Christ. He's done so much for us
that we want to be able to reciprocate that and
(20:10):
be an example of his love to everybody who comes
in our employees, as well as as the customers who
come in.
S1 (20:18):
Wow. So let me go back to this idea of
your being an artist, because we talked earlier that your
medium of choice is fondant. It doesn't it's sugar, it's flour,
it's butter. It doesn't happen to be oils or pastels.
But if you were an artist who used oils and
pastels and someone came along and said, and I want
to take exactly what you just shared with me, I
(20:38):
want you to make a racist picture. Do you think
any artist who had a gallery in New York City
should be forced to paint a racist painting.
S5 (20:47):
I don't think an artist with a gallery in New
York City, or an artist who works out of his garage,
should be forced to create any message that, uh, they
don't agree with. And that's essentially what the government is
forcing us to do when we finally got to, uh, uh,
got to court in this first case.
S1 (21:04):
So it was a form from your vantage point, you
felt you were being coerced to say something that you
didn't want to say. And therefore, in the creation of
your art, to have to express something that you didn't believe.
S5 (21:16):
Absolutely. Say, if you were on a business trip and
you went to, uh, you were supposed to go to
the conference room and you forgot which conference room you
were supposed to go to. So you go down to
the lobby, and you open the door to one of
the rooms, and you saw a cake sitting on a
corner in the on a table in the corner. You
would know immediately that that was a wedding. It's not
a business meeting. It's not a meeting about cakes. You
know that there's a wedding taking place because the wedding
(21:38):
cake itself is an inherent message. It's iconic. We know
what a wedding cake stands for. And so for me
to be forced to create a wedding cake, whether there
were any words on it or not, I'm participating. Participating
in expressing my approval of a, of an event that
goes against my deeply religious beliefs. And so, because of
(21:59):
the message of that cake, we knew that we couldn't
create them. And then the state was going to force
us to.
S1 (22:04):
So before I take to what happened on that day
in July in 2012, let me just ask you a question, Jack.
You and I are talking freely and openly as brother
and sister in the Lord. You've explained the use of
the word masterpiece, and it's sort of double entendre masterpiece
as in an art masterpiece. But master as he is
Lord and master of your life, you are very open
(22:25):
about that to me. If I'm Joe Doe and I
live in the suburbs of Denver and I want to
make a cake, and I went to your website, what
I know based on anything that you had on that
website or signs that were posted in your shop that
you were a follower of Christ.
S5 (22:39):
Um, no. I have more signs in my shop now. Um,
my son makes some cool signs with his laser printer
and stuff, and I have those on display, and I've got, um,
my desk is in the storefront and bookshelves behind me
that contain Bibles, but you wouldn't walk in and say,
you know, this is a Christian bakery. Um, people have
told me that they knew that just from, I guess,
(23:01):
the way I treat them. But, uh, there's not an
inherent signage or anything like that that says, yes, this
is a Christian bakery. No, this is a Christian who
owns a bakery. So I want me to be the sign.
S1 (23:13):
I love that that's excellent. And as I noted earlier,
you wrote in the book that when that head shop
opened and they wanted you to make weed shaped cookies,
you said no. So you had said no to certain
requests before.
S5 (23:26):
Oh, like I said, we also decided at the beginning
that we wouldn't create cakes to celebrate Halloween. And so
every September October we get dozens or, you know, however
many requests to create cakes for Halloween. And so we
have to decline those because they also are, Our products
that we can't create because of our faith.
S1 (23:46):
Yeah, exactly. So in other words, before that fateful day
in 2012, you had said no before based on and
will use the legal jargon here, you're sincerely held religious beliefs.
That's important. I want to go back and I want
to talk about that fateful day in July in 2012.
I don't want to hear it from any media outlet.
I want to hear it from you. You were there.
You were a principal party. Tell me exactly what happened.
(24:08):
Jack tells you what happens and a whole lot more
in his brand new book, The Cost of My Faith
How a Decision in my Cake Shop took me to
the Supreme Court. A very important and timely read. Jack
sets an example for the rest of us back after this.
(24:35):
Ministry is never a solo effort. You know my voice
because I'm on the radio every day. Look a little
further and you'd see right into the homes of listeners
just like you. Partial partners who give a monthly gift
and make this ministry available. Become a member of the
team today by becoming a partial partner. Call eight 7758
or go online to in the market with Janet parshall.org.
(25:01):
What a treat to spend the hour with Jack Phillips. Yep,
that Jack Phillips of Masterpiece cake. And now you get
to know even more about the man, both through our
conversation this hour with Jack, but also through his new book,
The Cost of My Faith How a Decision in My
Cake Shop took me to the Supreme Court. I want
to go to that date in July of 2012. But Jack,
God very often sort of prepares us by upping, if
(25:23):
you will, the trials so that we get some spiritual muscle.
Excuse me before the next confrontation. Up to that time
in your life, what was the biggest trial you had
ever had in terms of your spiritual life?
S5 (25:36):
Um, probably, uh, being a good husband, uh, raising kids
was easy, I had good kids and I loved them
very much. And just my, you know, self-centered, selfish nature. Um,
I had to learn how to be a better husband
and and love my wife the way that I was
supposed to.
S1 (25:53):
Amen.
S5 (25:54):
So the war.
S1 (25:55):
The war? Yeah. The war within rather than the war without.
If I could put it that way. Wow. Yeah. So
that that day in July, you just you're you're doing
exactly what the Lord has called you to do. Praise God.
Your store is open. It's been open since 1993. The
year is now 2012. It's you. Your wife, your daughter.
Lisa is very creative, loves the shop, joins in the
(26:15):
work that you're doing. And in come two men. Tell
me what happened that day.
S5 (26:20):
Well, it was again a beautiful day here in Colorado.
It was a July afternoon, bright and sunny. Had two
employees working for me. They were both busy. Um, protocol
was they took care of the phones and the customers first.
If they're busy, then I was third in line and
I came out. So I came out and saw that
they were both busy. And there were two men sitting
at our wedding desk. Wedding desk is at a special
(26:42):
area we have set up for, you know, surrounded by
wedding cake displays. And and so I walked over and
sat down at the desk and I introduced myself. The
man on my right said, you know, he's David on
my left, Charlie and David said, big smile on his face.
You know, we're here to look at wedding cakes. And Charlie,
you know, grinning, also said, you know, it's for our wedding.
(27:02):
And I knew immediately that this was not a cake
that I could create, but what I did know was
how I would, you know, what words would actually come
out of my mouth. How would you know? Be gentle
and compassionate in saying, I can't serve you this cake?
You know, I'd be glad to serve you other things. Uh,
you're welcome in my store. And what I said was, sorry, guys,
I don't create cakes for same sex weddings. And they
(27:23):
both looked at me kind of stunned and said, you know,
didn't say anything like their eyes were. What? And I said,
you know, I'll make you cookies. Brownies. So you birthday cakes,
shower cakes. I just don't create cakes for same sex weddings.
At which point David on my right jumped up, flipped
me off, started swearing, swore all the way out the door,
and Charlie picked up his. He had a folder with
(27:44):
him with wedding cake ideas and went over. And there
was a woman sitting at a table that I hadn't noticed,
and they left together. Turned out later I found out
she was his mom. But just like that, 20s 19
words and my life turned upside down.
S1 (28:00):
Wow. God hasn't given us a spirit of fear, but power, love,
and of a sound mind. They walked out the door.
What was your next thought?
S5 (28:08):
My next thought was I was just stunned. I'd never
had anything like that happen before. We'd had people come
in 4 or 5 times asking for same sex wedding
cakes and ceremony cakes, and and we declined to create those.
And we had a chance to talk. These two men
didn't give me a chance to explain anything other than
what I hoped. I had clearly said, you know, I
will serve you, you know, gladly I will make other
(28:29):
custom cakes for you. I just can't create this one
to celebrate a same sex marriage. And, uh, that they
didn't get that or didn't give me a chance to
talk about it. So they stormed out. About 20 minutes later,
I get a phone call saying, are you the baker
who just turned away a gay couple? I'm like, what?
You just turned away a gay couple. I said, no,
I would never turn away anybody. Somebody asked me for
(28:50):
a cake that I couldn't create. You know, the phone
goes dead with a bunch of profanity. What in the
world was that? And then the phone rang again and
again and again. And this is like, 430, 4:45. And
we closed at six, and I got like six phone
calls like that right away. Just hateful calls. I was stunned,
so kind of wondering what was going on. I closed
(29:13):
the shop that night. I headed to the grocery store thinking,
everybody in the world hates me. I was already getting
hateful emails. I walked into the grocery store and then
that's when the verse came to me. God has not
given us a spirit of fear, but of love and
of power and of a sound mind. And I knew
right then God was in control of all this. And
so from that moment to this, I've never had any
(29:34):
doubt about what happened, or any I should have done that,
should have done this. Should I have I've done that.
I did what I should have done, and I tried
to honor God in the way that I handled it.
And there we are.
S1 (29:45):
Wow. You know, Jack, he reminds us in his word
that his sufficient grace is there for our our use
every single day. And his tender mercies are renewed at
that moment when you're in the grocery store and God.
God's word gets recalled again. And I love the way
the Holy Spirit does that. You didn't have a clue
how long this was going to be. Not a 50
yard dash. This was going to be a marathon. You
(30:07):
didn't have a clue how long you were going to
have to press into him, because this was going to
be an extrapolated journey from that grocery store experience. When
did you realize, uh oh, this is more than just
some hateful phone calls?
S5 (30:21):
Well, the following Monday and Tuesday, I got connected with
the Alliance Defending Freedom, the attorneys who have represented us
all this time. And I'd like to add that they've
done just a remarkable job. They worked with us, they've
supported us, they've encouraged us, and they've done it all
pro bono. They run. They haven't charged me a dime,
but they run on donations, so people need to donate
(30:41):
to them because they're not only fighting for my freedom.
I realize this three or 4 or 5 years ago,
it's not important whether Jack ever makes another cake. This
is important for every American, because every American should be
free to live and work according to their conscience, without
fear of punishment from the government. Anyway, um, yeah, we
were connected with them right away. And then it was, uh,
(31:02):
a few weeks later, in October, from July to September
or October, that I actually was served with the notice
from the state that I was being sued.
S1 (31:10):
Wow. What went through your mind when that happened?
S5 (31:13):
Um, I was expecting it by then because early on
the first week or two, uh, the two men had
staged protests outside of our shop and called the media
in and then said, they're coming back the next week
with a much larger protest and more media. And so, um,
the media came and, and, uh, you know, one of
the reporters asked me, do you know that you're in
violation of Colorado statute number, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah?
(31:36):
I said, never heard of such a thing. And, uh,
so I knew that there was at least some basis
for the state stretching a law to include this, you know,
sexual orientation as part of their, uh, charge. And so
when it came, I was I was not uninformed or
surprised that it was on its way, just that it
could happen, you know, because the state, the government is
(31:57):
supposed to protect these rights, they don't give them and
take them away. They're supposed to protect the rights that
God has given us. And so this hostility from the
government was completely unexpected.
S1 (32:07):
Yeah, yeah. Enter that 50 cent word that we never
use unless we're talking about the Constitution, those inalienable rights
given to us not by government, but by God and
government's job is to protect them. So, Jack, in the
midst of all of this, you're not only just fighting
this ground on terra firma where you're getting the pushback,
the intimidation and and your opinion. Did you feel it
(32:29):
was intimidation if they were picketing outside your store?
S5 (32:32):
Uh, they were trying to. Yeah, I would I mean,
you don't go picking somebody because you want to show
them how much you appreciate them, but they wanted to
shut us down. And the same way as this, you know,
the later lawsuits go.
S1 (32:46):
Exactly. So, Jack, the question you raised the question in
the book. And it's interesting because as people have talked
about this case literally around the globe, you know, that
people have said, why don't you just make the cake?
It would have been easy. It wouldn't have had this problem,
and you wouldn't have gone into the deep end of
the pool where it was all hot water anyway. What
would you say?
S5 (33:05):
Um, back to what I said earlier that before we
opened up the shop, my wife and I drew our
lines in the sand, and those lines haven't changed. And
if the same situation came up again today, we would
have to stand by them and let the chips fall
where they may. If the state put us out of business,
then I find something else to do. But I don't
want to dishonor my God and my faith and my
(33:25):
family in, uh, surrendering what I believe in.
S1 (33:29):
Yes. Amen to that. You know that people have talked
about this. And when we've raised the question of your
case on this program, we would sometimes hear from callers
who would say, I would have made the cake, because
that would have been my way of showing the love
of Jesus to them. What would you say in response?
S5 (33:45):
I would have to disagree, because I don't see Jesus
doing something that goes against what I believe the Bible teaches.
He wouldn't go against his own self, his own words,
and his own teaching.
S1 (33:55):
Yeah, so it would have been contradictory that there comes
a time where you have to say this far and
no farther.
S5 (34:02):
Right. Absolutely.
S1 (34:04):
So you've got it at the state level. This works
its way eventually all the way to the Supreme Court.
How do you find the strength to persevere? Because this
is draining on your marriage. It's draining on your family.
It's draining on your business. You could have a thousand
times said if only dot, dot, dot, but you didn't.
God gave you that sense of peace that moment after
it happened. How did you find the strength to put
(34:26):
one foot in front of the other and keep doing this?
S5 (34:28):
Well, um, the Bible says in Second Chronicles 19 1609
that the eyes of the Lord range to and fro
throughout the earth, to show himself strong or to strengthen,
depending on which version, to strengthen the man whose heart
is fully committed to him. And he's given us the
strength that we need, and he's shown himself strong through
these things. So all along he's reassured us and and
(34:51):
let us know that this is not our battle. This
is his battle. Even though, you know, the government is
trying to force me to express messages that I shouldn't
have to, um, he's there to supply the needs Alliance,
defending freedom, encouraging friends. Um, so we knew that we
were doing what we needed to do. And the battle
is his, not ours.
S1 (35:12):
Yeah. Amen to that. Jack. I want to take a break.
And you know, nothing is wasted in God's classroom. And
very often when a platform is created, he gives us
the opportunity to bring honor and glory and fame to him.
I want to know, in this long pilgrimage that you've
been on with since the masterpiece Cakeshop v Colorado Civil
Rights Commission case was started. What opportunities has the Lord
(35:36):
afforded you to be able to let your light so shine,
as people have heard what you have to say? You
said openly, I'll serve you anything. It's just that I
can't do this cake because marriage is sacrosanct and the
Word of God, it's separate. It's special. There's a mystery
between a man and a wife, and I can't rewrite
what God has already said. So it wasn't about pushing
people aside. It was about being disobedient to God. From
(35:58):
your perspective, I want to know how you were able
to get that message across. Jack's book is called The
Cost of My Faith how a decision in my cake
shop took me to the Supreme Court. Jack Phillips is
(36:23):
with us. He is the man behind Masterpiece Cake Shop
and the stuff of Supreme Court cases. His book is
out now. It's called The Cost of My Faith. Let
those words fall down through your ears, into your heart.
There is a cost of discipleship. Jesus paid it all.
All to him I owe. Remember the old hymn? So
Jack tells his story of his faith and his walk
(36:45):
with the Lord. And it is amazing. It is an
eye opener, and I think God is using Jack in
a very powerful way to take a church that practices
a kind of cushy, Americanized Christianity and say, listen, you've
never realized what persecution is like, but that day may
come and you'd better be ready. Could you? In 20s,
just like Jack did when he was challenged on that
day in 2012, be able to give a reason for
(37:06):
the hope that resides within you by saying, I cannot
do that. I cannot make a cake that celebrates same
sex marriage, and the rest is now legal history. So, Jack,
God has opened the door because your story took a
long time to tell. And there's still more to this story.
What opportunities has he afforded you to be, to be
able to point the way to him and to tell
your story and your testimony?
S5 (37:28):
Well, besides being able to use the cost of my
faith to tell my story, he's also. We're still in court. Um,
just back in March, we had a trial for our
third lawsuit where an attorney here in Colorado has asked
us to create a cake to celebrate a gender transition.
Blue on the outside and pink on the inside to
celebrate changing from a man to a woman. And so
(37:49):
we were in the in the court back in March,
and now we're waiting for the judge to announce his
decision on that. But during the whole the last year
and a half, getting to that point where the trial,
I had a face to face meeting with this attorney
who promised me that if I were to win this
case or if, you know, were thrown out on a technicality,
I would get a phone call the very next day
(38:11):
asking for another cake, and we would start all over again.
And this was not just in a face to face meeting.
This was under oath in the courtroom. So God's given
me the opportunity to use those examples of, you know,
this this person also asked that a few years ago
for a cake with Satan smoking a marijuana joint. And, uh, he's,
(38:31):
you know, these are cakes that I can't create because
of the message. And I shouldn't be able shouldn't be
forced to express any message. Um, but it's also given
me the opportunity to, uh, meet so many other people,
you know, customers coming in to express support. And I've met, um,
we had a man come in. There was a radio
station doing a show here shortly after the protest days.
(38:52):
And one of the first people that came in that
day was a former gay activist who came in. She
wanted to know who was this man who wouldn't create
a who wouldn't sell a cake to a gay couple?
We've become friends since then, you know, because he knows
who I am and that I can't create a cake
that goes against my message. And he wouldn't ask me to,
but he knows if I ask him to. If he
asked me to create a cake for another celebration that
I would create, I would gladly do it. Because it's
(39:13):
always the message of the cake that I'm judging, not
the person. Uh, I'd love to serve people. That's why
I went into retail in the first place.
S6 (39:21):
Oh, wow. Jack, that's so powerful.
S1 (39:24):
So again, you've. There isn't any question that you seem
to be the object of disdain that one way or another,
people want to shut you down, damage you financially, make
your business go away. Make you pay a price, extract.
If I can take the words of Shakespeare, a pound
of flesh. And yet you keep going. What message for
a frightened church in America? What message would you tell them?
S5 (39:47):
Well, one thing that I think I might have even
said here, that you have to draw a line in
the sand and be willing to stand for it, but
it has to be a line that's that's worth standing
for in Jesus Christ is. And not only do I
have to stand for him, he enables me. He gives
me the power to stand for him. And so it
becomes a lot easier if you just realize that you're
on the winning side, that he's going to prove victorious
(40:10):
in all these battles, and he's going to grant you
the peace and the strength and wisdom that you need.
S6 (40:16):
Wow.
S1 (40:16):
So, Jack, even in this next phase of litigation, even
if the results are not what you want them to
be because you were obedient to him, do you still
define that as a victory?
S5 (40:28):
I do. Um. When the two men walked out of
my shop back in July of 2012. And I'm thinking,
you know, if this goes really bad and I lose everything,
that's fine. I would rather lose everything doing what's right
than keep everything. And it's kind of like Jim Elliott saying,
you know, it's, uh, never mind. It's better to serve,
(40:49):
you know what I'm saying? If you can fill it
in for me.
S1 (40:52):
But yes.
S5 (40:53):
He's no fool who gains what he cannot lose to,
you know, gives up what he cannot keep to gain
what he cannot lose. That's it. Sorry about that. Um.
S1 (41:01):
But you got it. That's exactly right. Yeah.
S5 (41:04):
But following Christ is the best thing to do.
S1 (41:08):
The title of the book, The Cost of My Faith,
that I find that to be so appropriate and such
a tutorial. Because what you are saying declaratively is that
there is a cost in following Jesus. Talk to me
about that.
S5 (41:22):
Um, you know, there is. We have to give up
the the temptations of the world. We've got the media.
We've got everybody telling us we need this and we
need that, and we need to look like this or that.
But the reality is we just need Jesus, his peace
in our in our lives and in our hearts. And
when we are obedient to him, he gives what we
need the fruits of the spirit love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness,
(41:45):
and self-control. They're not fruits for the spirit. They're fruits
of the spirit. They're things that he gives us from him.
They're not things we do for him. And so he's
blessed us with that in so many, so many different times,
so many different ways.
S1 (42:01):
Well, you anticipated my question, Jack, which is there's no
question that this is made legal history. They'll be reading
about this in law schools all across America. But what
has it done for you spiritually? Has it caused you
to spend more time in the word? Are you and
Debbie closer spiritually than you've ever been before? You know
your battle is not two men who walked into the store.
Ephesians six reminds us that. So what has this done
(42:22):
to your spiritual life?
S5 (42:24):
Yeah, Ephesians six says, we're not wrestling against flesh and blood,
but against powers and those things just to make that clear.
But it's drawn my wife and I closer together and
and yes, I am much more in tune with the word. Um,
I'm reminded of Jesus parable that, uh, the ten virgins
that when the bridegroom is coming, 5 or 5 were prepared,
(42:45):
five were not prepared, but all ten were asleep. And
I'm sure that I was sleepwalking. And the preparedness that
I had was God showing me the the Halloween things
and all those other things. So I'd be ready to
give an answer when they came. So he's been good
that way.
S7 (43:00):
Amen.
S1 (43:01):
Jack, you just said something very important. And that is
perhaps God is using your story and your life as
an alarm clock, that we are basically sleepwalking in so
many ways that the persecution that our brothers and sisters
experience overseas is an overseas problem. It's not a problem here.
And yet all one has to do is poke their
head out of their little tent and see that the
winds are howling, and that there's a marked animosity against
(43:22):
those of us who declare publicly that Jesus is Savior
and Lord in our life. I believe God is using
you as an example, and you have been steadfast. And
I want to tell you something else. I want you
to know that people listening to your conversation today are
also people who believe in the power of prayer you
just talked about. Here we go again, another round of litigation.
You're in more than capable hands with ADF, and we
(43:42):
praise God for their legal acumen and their free representation.
For you. And I have a website so people can
learn more and contribute. It's right there on my website
as well, so check that out. If you're moved by
Jack's case, then pray and act and there's an opportunity
to do it with the website there. But Jack, I
want you to know people are going to be lifting
you up in prayer, that you don't get battle weary,
(44:02):
that your marriage remains strong, that God puts a hedge
of protection around your life, that he makes you bold
on the outside, but a tender heart on the inside.
In the midst of all of this, you have been
exemplary to us. And again, I want to end the
way we started. Thank you, Jack, so much for who
you are in Christ. I look forward to spending eternity
with you. We'll see you next time, friends.
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