157: The Emotionally Healthy Man: How to Feel Without Shame with Chris O'Neil

Episode Transcript
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maryann-walker--she-her-_ (00:00):
well, hello and welcome back.
I am so excited for today.
Today I have Chris O'Neill onthe show.
Chris is an emotions coach formen and fathers.
I have absolutely loved all ofthe content that he has been
putting out into the world, andso I wanted to have him on here
today to kind of explore some ofthe challenges that specifically
men face around emotionalexpression, emotional

(00:21):
processing.
Kind of help us to break down afew harmful stereotypes and also
just help my listeners to findsome practical tools for
emotional regulation andpersonal growth.
So this episode is designed formen on their own personal
healing journeys and also.
For those who love men and wantto be able to better understand
them and better support them ontheir journey.

(00:41):
So thank you so much for beinghere, Chris.

chris-o-neil--he-hi (00:44):
Absolutely.
Very, very happy to be here.
And I, I really appreciated youreaching out when you did.
we've been mutuals for a whilenow on social media and, I've
stitched some of your stuff.
You've some of mine.
And, I loved the, the kind of ata distant interactions we've
had.
So, when you reached out I was,I was happy to hear it, so,

Yeah.
It's so fun to meet face to faceand when we had all of that
scare around if TikTok was

chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_0 (01:09):
yeah.

maryann-walker--she-her-_1_0 (01:10):
or not,

Yeah.

maryann-walker--she-her-_1_ (01:11):
are one of the few creators that I
was like, I need to find him onanother platform because

chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04- (01:15):
Oh, thanks.

do if I can't follow his feed?
So yeah, I,

chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_ (01:19):
That's great.
I appreciate that.

maryann-walker--she-her-_1 (01:20):
out.
Yeah, for sure.
So, tells Chris, what led you tobecoming an emotion coach for
men and fathers?

Okay, let's see if I can whittle this
down from the, uh, you know, 20plus years of, of, uh, journey
that I've been on.
Um, I, I could go earlier.
I'll just acknowledge the factthat I came from an
authoritarian upbringing, um,you know, and had issues with my
own awareness of my emotion and,and emotional regulation and all

(01:48):
of that.
Uh, but really it started when Igot into, uh, massage therapy.
Um, I, I had been in therestaurant industry for a long
time and it was, you know, inthe weeds crash and burn.
Go, go, go, go.
And I just, I, I wanted toshift, I wanted to move into
something a little more.
Focused, quiet, you know, calm.

(02:10):
And I really fell in love with,uh, body work.
'cause my mother was a, amassage therapist, so went to
school.
I've been doing that for 16 plusyears.
I really dug into, um, uh, atechnique I created called BCT
Body Communication Therapy.
And in doing that, I reallybecame super aware of the

(02:31):
difference between so many menand so many women having
different clients over the yearsof how connected people were to
their bodies.
Um, and just in general, the,obviously it's, it's not it,
each individual is different,but the vast majority of the
male clients that I had had far.
Bigger issues, connecting theiremotions, their psychology and

(02:53):
their physiology, andunderstanding those connections
and what to do about them.
It was just like, it hurts here.
And I don't know why, you know,they could identify things, but
they couldn't follow the throughline of where it came from and
how it worked.
And there are plenty of womenwho couldn't do that either.
But in general, women tended tobe more aware of those through
lines and could connect themeasier.

(03:16):
So when I would say, oh, thisarea of your body feels a
certain way, she's like, ohyeah, because this happened and
then I connected this and da,da, da, da, da.
Whereas the guy was just like,yeah, it hurts.
It's been hurting for a coupleweeks.
Well, what'd you do?
I don't know.
I lifted something.
I don't know.
You know, it, it, it was just avery.
This is what's happening.
So I'd like this to happen.

(03:36):
Um, I came to you for this.
So, and you know, they, theyweren't horrible about it, but
it was just, you are thepractitioner, so tell me what I
need to do.

Yeah.

And that lack of awareness of
navigating it on their own, atleast to the point that they
don't understand, so then I canstep in and help.

maryann-walker--she-her- (03:51):
Right.

the body communication therapy was
literally an real, a real timeinvestigation of what was
happening, how that wasconnecting to their emotional
state, psychology state and allof that.
And they were able to then havea better skill identifying
certain things so that theycould communicate to other
therapists and, and get moreproper healing.

(04:15):
Um, that, uh, led me to, well itdidn't lead me to becoming a
father, but I became a fatherin, um, 2018 and I.
This was the beginning of, of alot of dominoes for me.
I kind of had just these reallybig moments.
I became a father.

(04:36):
Um, my, uh, my sister died and,uh, I can go into detail, uh,
about that, but it was a reallybig, obviously emotional
experience for me.
Um, then I turned 40, then thepandemic happened, then I lost
my massage business.
So it was just like boom, boom,boom, boom, boom, these things.

(04:58):
And I thought I had a reasonablygood handle on my emotions'cause
I was so aware of things,

maryann-walker--she-her (05:04):
Mm-hmm.

just stuck in my head like so many,
like so many guys.
And this is unfortunately, uh, abig thing.
Obviously we'll get to.
I figured it out.
I have this knowledge now so Iunderstand.
Cool.
And then we just move on.
No, no, no, no, no.
Now you gotta do the work tochange that thing, you know?
So I was in that category whereI was like, no, I get it.

(05:26):
I, I'm aware of this now, soit's fine.
Um, and then when my sisterdied, that just wave of emotion
that I had never, never knew Ihadn't dealt with,

Mm-hmm.

chris-o-neil--he-him-_ (05:36):
exploded all over everything.
My family interactions, myextended family interactions and
all of that.
So, uh, losing my massagebusiness'cause I couldn't see
clients for a year.
During the pandemic,

Mm-hmm.

chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-13 (05:47):
I decided to pivot and I was
originally gonna do bodyawareness coaching and I thought
that would be something, selfmassage, that type of stuff.
Um, but then when my sister diedand, and combined with the
pandemic and just being stuckinside for so long and internal
reflections and all that, and Irealized all the stuff I was
going through, so many other menneeded that.

(06:11):
That awareness, that practice,all of that.
Like, and I just, I was drawn tothis idea of helping men to,
basically the way I viewed isbecome whole people.

Yeah.

you're not becoming less of a man,
you're just expanding yourskillset to be a better human
being.
And by default, a better man,instead of being afraid and, you
know, trying to pretend andavoid these things exist

Hmm.

that's how men are supposed to be.
We are augmenting our skill andour ability to function in the
world and in relationships andwith our family so that we can
be better for them andourselves.
And I realized that doing thework for me and, and meeting all

(06:57):
of these other men through alot, a lot on my TikTok page, I.

Mm-hmm.

chris-o-neil--he-him-_1 (07:02):
Because that I, I was one of those, and
I think this is true of most ofus.
Our, my audience came byaccident.
I didn't set out to have a bigaudience and you know, there are
plenty of people with biggerones, but, um, it just happened,

Yeah.

know, and I realized that I had some
influence and what I was goingthrough, so many other men are
going through.

Hmm.

And I was like, I feel like I can
help with this.
So here we are.

Well that, thank you so much for
sharing all of that.
And, and I, it is obvious fromthe level of interaction on your
page,

Hmm.

the impact that you've had and how
needed the conversations thatyou're starting, how, how needed
those conversations are.
So I really appreciate youbringing your experience and
your wisdom here.
You touched on a few things thatI would love to just ask a
little bit more about if you'reopen to it.

Absolutely.

Um, so first you said working as a
massage therapist.
You talked about the differencebetween that, that the men kind
of seem to struggle a little bitmore with communicating what was
happening in the body and, andmaking those connections.
Um, and so where do you thinkthat that stems from, and is
that, is that.
that manifest, thatdisconnection from the body
versus the disconnection fromemotions?

Uh, well, and that the, the
interesting aspect to thatquestion is there's a, there's
connectivity there, right?
Because emotions are in thebody.
So it, it's, I I feel like, and,and there are always exceptions
of course, so there's gonna be alot of generalization in, in a
lot of these talking points, butI think they apply more than
they don't.

Mm-hmm.

Um, where men are just kind of
taught to steamroll pastwhatever their body's telling
them

Hmm.

in order to maintain and man up and
step up, and all the sayings,right?

Right.

I'm hungry.
Screw it.
I gotta finish this job, right?
Uh, I am thirsty, whatev,whatever the need of the body
coming up, uh, I'm feelingoverwhelmed.
Can't admit that.
'cause then I would have toacknowledge I can't handle, so
I'm out of control, right?
So there is this, uh, perpetualneed to prove ourselves as men.

Mm-hmm.

to just supersede all of these
biological functioning thingsthat come up.
So years and years of that leadsto just a, a lack of awareness
of what certain things mean whenthey do come up.

Mm-hmm.

So it's like if you push past it
and push past it and push pastit and push past it, eventually
it's gonna start yelling at youin a way that you can't push
past.
And then you don't have all ofthis knowledge, awareness, and
skill that you would have builtif you paid attention a while
ago and now you're at this likecrossroads where you have to do
something about it, but youhaven't practiced anything, you

(09:56):
have no idea where to start,what to do, and it's all really
overwhelming.

Mm-hmm.

then you start the cycle all over
again and push it back down, andthen it just comes out in all
these horrible ways,

Yeah.

you know?

to tie that together with your
experience of grieving, notjust, you know, the loss of your
sister, but also the loss ofyour livelihood at that point
and

Mm-hmm.

you were doing.
how is it that grief manifests alot of time for men?
Like, I know that there, itseems to me, and you correct me
on any of this, but that someemotions seem to be more allowed
for men than

Oh God, yes.

yeah, man up.
What is grief like, or what wasit like for you?

Well, certainly.
Um, and it's so amazing how, um,one emotion bleeds into another,
you know, and, and that's trueof anger.
And I, I will say that, um, eventhough anger can be a very good
thing, it's a self-advocacyemotion, right?
It, it helps you to stand up foryourself, but it, it's also a
masking emotion and it tends tobe the one that men funnel

(10:57):
everything through, because thatis the most acceptable emotion
that men are allowed.
Um, and this is a societal norm.
This is not biology, right?
So, um, grief, I feel likethere's a lot of shame.
There's a lot of shame attachedto every emotion that's not

(11:17):
anger coming from men.
Um, and that's the thing too.
It's like knowing all of thisstuff and doing my best to
practice it in my own life, I.

Mm-hmm.

Does not make me immune to all of the
stuff I'm talking about.
I still feel shame over cryingor doing, you know, it's still
there.
I can just manage it better thanI used to.
So, um, I think grief, one ofthe biggest issues with grief is
support and space, right?

(11:50):
A safe space to be allowed tohave these experiences.
And granted, that's true of manyemotions, but,

Mm-hmm.

um, it's, it's very unsafe for men
to have most emotions.
So we either end up going italone or trying to go to the
women in our lives and assumingthat they're kind of the, the
gatekeepers of emotion landanyway.
So

Mm-hmm.

just bring it all to them and I know
how jaded women are from havingto deal with that.
Um, so.
Yeah, it just, it keeps comingback to anger.
It just, pretty much everythingmanifests into frustration and
anger.
And ironically, a lot of thatanger comes from being angry at

(12:39):
ourselves for not being able tofigure this out, because that's
the, so it's like grief leads tofrustration, which leads to
anger, which leads to grief,which, you know, and then
there's just this circle.

Mm-hmm.

um, there's a difference between
like the idea of stoicism

Mm-hmm.

men in general, women too, but men
in general, especially with the,the Red Pill bro, podcasts
everywhere, telling men thatthey're supposed to do certain
things.
There's a difference between,I'll say capital stoicism and
little stoicism.
The capital stoicism is theclassic.
Ancient technique ofunderstanding, navigating,

(13:27):
working with, being able toidentify and move through
emotional experiences

Mm-hmm.

and then not allowing certain
actions that you feel compelledto do because of those emotions.

Mm-hmm.

the stoicism is controlling your
actions because of youremotions, whereas this idea of
kind of modern stoicism is just,oh, I'm just not gonna let my
emotions affect me.
No, no, no, no.
Your suppressing them.
That's not the same thing.

Yeah.

So avoiding denying or pushing them
away or, or, or just, you know,trying to focus on something
else is not being stoic.
That's, that's being repressive.
So,

I love that.
I've never heard thatdistinction before between the,
the big S and the little s

yeah.
Yeah.

Um, that's really insightful.
And also when you were talkingearlier about your experience
with, with your own personalgrief and everything, it, it
kind of sounded a little bitlike, like this belief that a
lot of people have that, well, Ican think through my emotions, I
can logic through my emotionshow sometimes that is a form of
suppression, but what do youthink on that?

Um, hmm.
I, the act itself, because it'san incomplete act.

Mm-hmm.

That's interesting.
Is it a form of suppression?
I would say yes, because it isavoidance, but it's
unintentional avoidance, right?
Because you're, you think you'redoing something that you're not.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and the, the analogy, it's a
very easy analogy.
It would be like foreverplanning a trip that you never
go on.

Mm-hmm.

Well, I, I planned the trip.
Look, there it is.
Everything's done.
Cool.
When are you gonna go?
Well, what do you mean?
Well, you're not gonna go on thetrip.
You took this long to plan,right?
It just doesn't make sense thatyou wouldn't do that.
But when, when we focus on, youknow, the emotional, the logic
in your emotions,

Mm-hmm.

not a word, but you get what I'm
saying.
Um, your, and the irony theretoo is that you, you literally
can't be in both places at once.
You can't be in your prefrontalcortex, in your logic center and
your amygdala, your emotioncenter, right?
It's one or the other.
And so when your lo you're usingyour logic to think about your
emotional state.

(15:57):
You are simply cr, you know,either creating or acknowledging
an awareness.
You are putting labels onthings.
You're dotting i's and crossingt's, which is a good thing.
But if you stop there, you'renot actually doing the work to
address the issue.
You're just labeling the issue.

Hmm, huh.
Yeah.
I like that.
Yeah.
'cause I know I've worked withquite a few people where once
they feel like they've learned afew tools, they think, because I
know these tools, I should neverexperience a negative emotion
ever again.

Oh yeah, that,

great.

yeah.

But like slowing it down and
recognizing no, like there isthat logic piece where I can
know why I am feeling what I'mfeeling, but it doesn't mean
it's gonna take it away.
It

No,

gonna experience any emotion again.
It

right.

I'll know better how to navigate

Well, and it's like, it's like saying
putting a seatbelt on willprevent me from ever getting in
a car accident.
Well, no.
It will just most likely saveyour life.
So you are better equipped tosurvive the experience and
navigate it healthily.
Right.
So that's really what it is.

Hmm.
Yeah.
So from your experience andperspective here, do you feel
like men and women experienceemotions differently?

Uh.
Yes and no.
And I wanna be clear.
Um, biologically no, and this isactually scientifically proven,

Mm-hmm.

uh, there are some slight hormonal
differences, obviously, becausethere are slight hormonal
differences in general betweenmen and women, um, because women
have more estrogen and men havemore testosterone.
Uh, the chemical makeup of theemotional experience
biologically is slightlydifferent, but it's negligible.
The vast majority of emotionalexpression is societal.

(17:44):
So it's how we're conditioned toemote to think about emotion, to
feel emotion.

Mm-hmm.

and that I find so interesting
because it's always, it's alwaysthe guys that argue, well, this
is just how we are.

Yeah.

But that's not true.
It, it's, it is a skillset, nota trait.
So.
It is a societal trait, but it'snot a biological one.

Ooh.
Okay, so let's sit with that fora little bit

Yeah.

a skillset, not a trait,

Yeah.

because it, it sounds like you're
saying, okay.
They basically experienceemotions the same ways, which
tells me a lot of it is thatsocietal conditioning.
And my perspective is right nowin society, and this is one of
the reasons I wanted to have youon so badly, is there's a lot
of, you know, toxic masculinity.
in my mind, the cure for thetoxic masculinity is increasing

(18:41):
that emotional intelligence,that that ability to just figure
out how to navigate thosethings.
And so it's interesting thatyou're like, no, this is a
skillset you're, it doesn't meanthat you can never learn how,
like that's just society saying,

Oh, yeah.

is how you're supposed to be a man.

Absolutely.
Well, and I do wanna addressthis too, because I, I hate
buzzwords because they, theystart out as beneficial as, you
know, pointing to something andthen they turn into these
political, you know, and thenpeople spout them and, and have
no idea either what they mean orwhat they're supposed to mean,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
So I would, I would like to, um,address the phrase toxic

(19:21):
masculinity as authenticmasculinity.

maryann-walker--sh (19:25):
Interesting.
Okay.
Gimme more of a definition onthat one.

Okay.
Because really what you'resaying when you're, when people
are using toxic masculinity,number one, people that don't
get it think you're saying thatmasculinity itself is toxic
versus iterations of status quo.

Mm-hmm.

Old ways of thinking, versions of
masculinity that aren't helpfulor healthy or beneficial to you
and your relationships.
That's what toxic masculinityis, right?

Mm-hmm.

So I find that saying authentic
masculinity just wipes all theconfusion out because what it
is, is the positive aspects ofbeing a masculine man.
Um, and also the fact thatmasculinity is a subjective
experience, right?
There are chemically hormonebased, like testosterone is the

(20:20):
masculine hormone, right?

Mm-hmm.

Um, but women have testosterone too.
They just have it in, uh, lessor smaller amounts.
There we go.

Yeah.

Um, but it's.
Coming across as your authenticself within your own version of
masculinity versus I have tonegate all of my own stuff for
this inside the box version thateveryone else agrees is how
we're supposed to be.
That is, and and first of all,like the toxic stuff is if

(20:56):
you're hurting someone, thethumbs up emoji.
If you're hurting someoneemotionally, psychologically, or
physically in the name ofmasculinity, that is bad.
That is toxic, right?
Um, it is also not authentic

Mm-hmm.

no one is authentically cruel,

Right.

right?
That comes from pain and traumaand granted in the, the few
exceptions of brain chemistry,right?
Like psychopathy and, um, peoplethat are actually chemically
deranged and they can't help it

Uhhuh?

other than those people.

Yeah.

It, it's, it is a conditioned choice
that you just habituallycontinue to make, so,

Ooh.
I love that, that it is a choiceand I, I wanna just repeat what
you said and your definition ofauthentic masculinity,

Hmm.

I wanna kind of use that moving
forward through this interviewto keep in mind.
Okay.
What we're gonna be talkingabout is authentic masculinity,
and you described it as thepositive aspects of being a
masculine man.
So to kind of launch into that,what do you think are some of
the outdated societalexpectations that are still
influencing how men expressemotions now?

Yeah.
And I, I think the biggest oneis just the foundational
assumption

Mm-hmm.

that showing weakness, showing
weakness, showing emotion isweakness.
Um,

Mm-hmm.

and I.
What's so interesting to me isthat the reason all of this is
so challenging, I think for menis the black and white nature of
how it's presented to us,

Mm-hmm.

right?
Either you're a strong man oryou are a weak man.
It's not that you are strong,where you have strengths and
weak, where you have weaknessesand you look at the weaknesses
as challenges to grow and evolveas a human being and a, a man.
It's, no, uh, these things I'mgood at and all these things I'm

(22:57):
supposed to be good at.
I have to pretend I am so Idon't get judged and shamed for
it.

Hmm.

So, and I realized I, uh, ask me the
question again'cause I wasstarting to tangent and I was
gonna go way over here.

No, just asking about, um, some of
the outdated societalexpectations that are

Okay.
So yeah, the boy, you know, theclassics boys don't cry, you
know?
Uh, again, all the sayings suckit up, man up.
Um, pretty much anythingfeminine, and this is what's so
interesting to me.
I like viewing masculine andfeminine as being and doing

(23:36):
internal and external, right.
Again, they, they are traits,not who we are.

Mm-hmm.

women can be confident and aggressive.
Men can be compassionate andempathetic.

Mm-hmm.

Those are just ways we can be.
Um, so when you're, when you'restuck in this idea that anything
feminine is bad or wrong, oragain, you'll be judged and
shamed for partaking in it,you're negating half of your
own.

(24:09):
Not only experiences but youremotions.
Th these are tools that informyou about your life experience
and that help you to change sothat you can have a better one.

Yeah.

it's all of the things that tell men
that they should negate thesenatural beneficial messages from
your body, um, in the, under theguise of, of strength and, um,

(24:43):
confidence.
Right?
So it's, it's the uninformednegative version of fake it till
you make it,

Hmm.

right?
So if, if, if every man wouldjust learn instead of push it
away and pretend, then theywould be all of the things we're
all pretending to be,

Yeah.

you know, so, but, but actually
going through it and saying, Idon't know.
I need help.
All of those things.
So I.
All of the things that wouldhelp us change are the very
things we're told we shouldn'tbe doing.
So it, it's under the guise of,uh, um, like wartime, right?

(25:33):
Let's just go to an extreme.
You can't sit there and, and,uh, say, huh, I'm feeling a
little, uh, anxious about takingthis, you know, hill with this
grenade in my hand to blow upthat bunker that could rip us
apart with their machine gunfire.
I should probably sit here andthink about my emotions and feel

(25:53):
them, and yeah, clearly that'snot the time for that.
Right?
And this is the black and whiteaspect of it.

right.

Men are told that that's how they
should be in every situation.

Yeah.

Nope.
We're in battle.
We gotta go to war.
We gotta, no, if you're actuallyin war or you're in an extreme
circumstance that you don't havethe space, the time, or the
safety for yourself or somebodyelse to go through that process,
of course you shouldn't do that.

Right.

But, but to assume that every
situation is that,

Yeah.

is the misguided part of it.

Yeah, and that gives me a lot more
insight into what you wereexplaining about the authentic
self.

Yes.

that a lot of it, it's not that
either or.
It's not that Compassion andconfidence are mutually
exclusive, and so it's kind ofjust embracing your personal,
true and authentic experience.
So it's not, okay, well this orthis, it's, no, it's this and

Yes.

in a war zone and I'm also feeling
anxious and like I want to

Mm-hmm.

going to, because that's does not
gonna fit the situation.
Right?
It's not what I want to do, butI can acknowledge that, yeah,
this and this and that.
That is a sign of that emotionalmaturity is allowing space and
acceptance for all that parts ofself.

Yes.
And here's the interesting part.
The resulting action is stillthe same.
It's going with that analogy,right?
I'm not gonna acknowledge I'mscared, I'm just gonna push it
down and take the hill.
Okay?
That might not matter in themoment, but later, if that's not
addressed, you're going to havedeeper PTSD because of many

(27:32):
other reasons, right?
Um, versus I am gonnaacknowledge that I'm scared, I'm
gonna recognize that that'shappening.
It, it doesn't even have to takemore time.
It's simply an acknowledgementof what's happening, accepting
that, and taking action anyway,instead of avoiding that and
using the action to suppress theemotion.

(27:55):
So.
The result, the immediate resultis exactly the same.
You're still taking action inspite of the emotion, but the
investment in later is betterbecause you're allowing what's
happening instead of trying tosuppress it.

Yeah.
It has me think about short termpeace and long term peace.
Right.
We think in the short term thenthis'll fix it to not address
it.
But then that's not creating thelong-term piece.
Like you said, it could lead tomore significant PTSD and and
other issues where the emotion'sgonna come out eventually.
We can just either do itconsciously or unconsciously,
but they're

Yeah.

out.

And it is, it, it's, it's, the
simple analogy is it's breath.
You can, you can take control ofyour own breathing if you so
choose, or you can just leave italone and you're still gonna
breathe.

Mm-hmm.

are the same way.
They're gonna be there whetheryou want them to be or not, but
if you proactively engage withthem.
You will not only build thatskill, but the result of that
skill will be a more enjoyablelife experience.
That's just, that's justlogically and factually true.

Yeah.
Yeah.
I love that.
And it also has me thinking fromwhat you've been sharing, that
it's kind of just like anacknowledgement of what is,

Yes.

just saying, okay, no, I'm just going
to acknowledge it, withoutjudging it.
Because I think

Mm-hmm.

that's that judgment that comes in that
then we're trying to suppressit, noticing, okay, am I judging
or am I acknowledging a hugeself-awareness.

Oh my God, yes.
And that's a, actually, I hopeI'm not jumping the gun here,
but, uh, that ties very wellinto, uh, the hero training
program that I created for thatreason.

us more.

So, uh, I was gonna get there, but
you know, it's still early.
Uh, so yeah.
Hero training was, first of all,it's an acronym.
It stands for happening,experience, response, and
Opportunity.
And it's a system I put togetherfor myself.
Around that time when my sisterdied and I was, my family

(29:52):
exploded and lost my business.
And, and it was like becoming anew father, especially, this is
really where it, I first noticedit.

Mm-hmm.

I was just angry and I didn't know
why.
And I would obviously have theseemotional reactions and I would
feel compelled to take certainaction or talk to my family a
certain way

Mm-hmm.

and excuse me.
And I, I was like, obviously Ineed to get a handle on this.
But first of all, what is evenhappening, right?
Because I just viewed it as onebig thing.
I,

Mm-hmm.

says something or something happens
and I feel something and then Ifeel compelled to react it and
it just feels like this ball ofone thing.
And so I decided to break itdown.
I was like, what actuallyhappens?
So happening, something happens,period.
These are, these arecompartmentalized individual

(30:50):
things,

Mm-hmm.

and this allows, it allowed me to
see, okay, I start here, then Igo here.
Then I, oh, okay, I have controlover this.
I do not have control over that,so why am I wasting my time
focusing on this?
So something happens.
You then have an experience.
Your experiences, your brain andbody give you thoughts,

(31:12):
emotions, and sensations aboutwhat happened.
You then feel compelled becauseof an emotion to react.
You can choose to react or, ordon't choose to stop yourself
and it'll just come out.

Mm-hmm.

Or you can pause.
Allow the emotion, understandwhere it's coming from, what's
happening.
Move yourself from your amygdalato your prefrontal cortex so you
can respond instead of react.

Mm-hmm.

You're still, again, it's like taking
the hill again.
You're still.
You're still doing something,you're taking action.
You're just doing it proactively

Mm-hmm.

in a more beneficial way.
Um, and then opportunity isbasically your downtime.
It's, it's outside of anemotional experience when you're
regulated.
Again, being able to dig into itand saying, okay, what happened
there?
Why did I react this way andwhat can I do about it?
'cause so often men, and this isa big issue too, we tend not to

(32:17):
deal with the emotions that wehaven't dealt with until we're
having them.

Mm-hmm.

And because again, oh, going to
therapy or doing emotion, uh,that's women's work and da da,
da, you know, all thestereotypes and blah, blah,
blah.

Mm-hmm.

So we don't do it unless we have
to.
And when we have to, we can'tbecause we can't think logically
when we're emotional

Hmm.

and, and there's this misperception,
oh, well, we're not emotional.
We're not sitting in the cornercrying.
That's not what being emotionalis, man.
That's what you think.
So when you see a woman crying,you, we say, oh, she's, she's
getting emotional.
But when a guy is screaming atthe top of his lungs super
angry, we don't say he's gettingemotional, do we?

Hmm.

No.
Even though that's exactly whathe is doing.

Wow.
Yep.
You're right.
We judge it,

Right.

We, he's out of control.

He's out of control.

Huh.

And, and the irony of that is that
men view crying as being out ofcontrol for them.

Wow.
Okay.
So I'm just gonna ask for alittle bit of more

Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

as you're talking about reacting
versus responding, can you giveus a few ideas on how learning
how to do that, how it benefitsnot only yourself, but also what
that looks like in relationshipsand engaging with other people?

Yeah, absolutely.
And, um, starting with the onewith yourself, your own
relationship to yourself and howyou understand not only.
What you believe, but how youthink and how that affects your
life and all of that.
It, it's a huge help becauseit's really just, it, it, it's
acknowledging the elephant inthe room in every circumstance.

(33:57):
If you're not including allparts of what's happening,

Yeah.

then you don't have some of the
information you need to address,adjust, um, take into account,
right?
So, again, I'm analogy boy overhere.
So I like, uh, I've always foundit easier for people to
understand with differentanalogies.
So, uh, like going into themechanic to get your car fixed,

(34:24):
right?
And just, just look at thetransmission.
Don't look at any other part ofthe engine.
Well, sir, what if there's an, Idon't care.
It doesn't matter.
It's fine.
It'll, like, that just soundsridiculous.
Why wouldn't you assess thewhole engine to make sure
something isn't wrong?

Right.

it's similar.
So.
If you're not addressingeverything that's happening,
then you don't have the abilityto appropriately acknowledge and
adjust.
So you are then not coming froma resolved place.

(35:06):
'cause there's still things youhaven't dealt with and that
comes out in your behavior.
So maybe you're a little snippywith somebody or you're
resentful, or it's all the stuffin the background that comes out
passive aggressive, you know,conversations like all of those
little things

Mm-hmm.

that come out and inform your
relationships.
How you talk to yourself in yourhead, how you talk to your
partner, how you talk to yourkids and all of those
communications cycle back toyou.
So your family dynamic.
And I hear all of, so many mentalk about, oh, we gotta lead
our family and, and you know.

(35:42):
We are in charge'cause we're theman.
Great.
Then prove it.
Model how you're supposed toengage with your own emotional
state so you can be big as stoicso you can be the leader that
your family needs.
Besides that, I don't believethat, that's a big thing for me.
I don't believe that men are theleaders of their family.
I believe they are a, a leaderof their family and I think they

(36:06):
should be.
But this whole thing, oh no.
Yes, women are equal to men.
But yeah, we're all human beingsand we all have skills and we
all have, you know, there arecertain things my wife is way
better at than I am.
She takes lead on those.
That is how we have a goodfamily dynamic because we use
each other's strengths.
Instead of saying, no, you stayover there'cause you're a woman

(36:29):
and I'll stay over here'causeI'm a man.

Yeah.

Right?
So it's, it's how you interact,it's how you resolve
differences, it's how you argueand all of those things.
Result in how you feel towardthe people that you care about,
what you can accomplish, howeasy or difficult anything is.

(36:55):
So why wouldn't you do something

Yeah.

make your life, your relationships,
and your communication betterand easier?

Yeah.
So speaking to the relationshipsthings, and I'm totally just
gonna like, like, yeah, you'retotally free to coach me on this
thing.
Okay.
So

Okay.

maryann-walker--she-he (37:17):
sticking in my head when you said that
for men, when they're expressinganger, then they're thinking I'm
in control.
And when they're crying, they'refeeling I'm out of

Yes.

And also, like I am aware that I
have totally, essentially shamedmen for expressing their anger.

Hmm.

it, I'm recognizing my own
conditioning

Okay.

have judged that, and I have shamed
that, that, oh, there's a manthat is out of control.
Um, what advice would you haveon like, rewiring that and, and
how to better support.
I wish I could remember exactlywhat things I've said'cause that
might be more helpful, but, butI'm just wondering, yeah.
How, how do you coach throughthat?
If you're coaching a man whose

Yeah.

getting after him, anytime he expresses
anger,

Yeah.

would you navigate that?

Okay.
So not just specifically to you,but women in general then.
Yeah.
Um, well, I will start this bysaying, um, I was a guest on a
podcast, uh, by, uh, a guy bythe name of Ricky Yee.
And, um, uh, you know, good guy,good character.
Uh, I appreciate what he does,

Mm-hmm.

men, but he and I, he and I
fundamentally disagree on a lotof stuff.

Yeah.

but something that he said that
introduced me to him, which ledto me being a guest on his
podcast was he said, um, men.
Basically I, I'm paraphrasingnow, but it's basically men, uh,
use anger to cry.

Hmm.

And I thought that was a great
insight for what it is.
But you can't, the problem isstopping there.
It's, it's another one of those.
Oh, yeah.
Okay.
That makes sense.
And then we just move on.
No, no, no, no.
Now, now we have to becomfortable with actually crying

Yeah.

because what you're ultimately saying is
this is how men are supposed tocry.
Not this is just how they do andwe should evolve their
abilities.
It's no, we've identified it.
Okay, that's, that's good, butthat's not what it should be.

Mm-hmm.

um, the big.
The big thing moving forwardwith that from the female
perspective.

Mm-hmm.

and this I know, uh, is gonna be
hard for a lot of women to hearbecause I have many women in my
own family who fall into thiscategory.

Yeah.

Um, the first of all, the biggest
problem that I see certainly inour society, but I think in the
world in general,

Mm-hmm.

is not men.
It's misogyny.

Hmm.

just that men tend to portray that
more potently more often, uh,than women.

Mm-hmm.

one of the biggest issues, and this
is so ironic too because, uh, ofall the men that are discussing
these clearly misogynisticthings, then, then feel like
they can't talk to theirpartners or wives because they
misogynistically judge them forit.

(40:18):
So the very misogyny that menare perpetuating, they're
receiving from the women intheir lives, and they feel shame
because of it.
And then they're using that as areason why they don't emote to
their partners.
Oh, well, she's just gonna useit against me in the future.

Interesting.
Okay.
Can you give us a, a clearexample of what that might look
like in conversation?

Yeah.
So, uh, well, crying is theperfect example, right?
Uh, a man will expresssomething.
He's having a hard time andmaybe he tears up a little bit
and she will say, or, or even ifshe doesn't say anything to him,
but, you know, oh, suck it up,or stop being so whiny or, or
whatever it happens to be.

(40:58):
But even if she doesn't sayanything, there are plenty of
stories of women going to otherwomen and saying, oh my God, he,
he just won't, he's crying aboutthis.
It's, and it's like viewing itas an emasculating thing instead
of a supportive thing.
So.
The, the criticism for so manywomen is to watch your own

(41:21):
misogyny

Hmm,

and just be aware of it, because
that is probably one of the topthree things I hear from men is
I can't be vulnerable with mypartner because she's gonna use
it against me in the future.
So they're afraid to open upbecause of how they're gonna be
judged misogynistically by thewomen in their lives.

Which is pretty heartbreaking, isn't

Yeah,

I, I mean, with you working with
the men and we, me working withthe women, they all want the
same thing.

absolutely.

And a lot of women would say, no, I
want a, an emotionally matureman.
But

Yep,

they're shaming them in the moment, and
it might be subtle, like yousaid, maybe it's spoken verbally
or maybe it's an eye roll

yep.

that's a little bit more passive

Yep.

but where the men are receiving the
me message from the women thatyou are less of a man if you
express it in that way.

And even if it's not said
explicitly, men pick up on itbecause we are hyper aware of
any sort of shaming, look,signal, body language, anything
like, because we've been setagainst it our entire lives.
That's the thing.
We don't want, we don't wantshame, we don't want judgment.
So the second that comes back atus from someone we are, we have

(42:41):
a desire to support and lead andcare for, and connect with and
been, have been told by the sameperson that this is what they
want.

Mm-hmm.

And then when we do, and granted
the, the other part of this isthat men are, men are dog shit
at this because we have solittle experience.
Relatively speaking because

Huh.

it doesn't mean that women are just
naturally better at this.
It's just that they areconditioned that doing this work
is far more okay for them thanit is for us.

Oh, I totally agree.
Like when you look at a bunch ofladies going out together, they
all just feel their feelingstogether.
Right.

Yeah,

it seems like, from what I've
witnessed from different maleinteractions, a lot of men, they
have to have like a sharedproject.
It almost seems like where it'salmost, if they're parallel to
each other and they don't haveto look each other in the eye,
it almost feels safer to expressemotions.

yeah.
And, and there is, there isthis.
Doing aspect of male connection.
Right.
And it, I, I, I don't know howlegitimate it is, but I've heard
the stories of hunter gatherer,you know, comparisons where
women, women talk more becausethey needed to, when they were
gathering to be loud, to scareaway the predators.
Whereas the men bond throughaction because they were not

(44:00):
supposed to talk.
So they wouldn't scare the preyaway and they had to use hand
signals and, you know, touch,you know, smacking on their
back.
And

fascinating.

so it's, I don't know how
legitimate that is.
I've just heard it before.

Yeah.

and it does make sense, but that's
also not an excuse to stay thatway.
Like that was thousands andthousands of years ago.
We don't exist that way anymore.

right.

but the whole thing is just being
able to have a space, and thisis, I had to touch on safe
spaces because I.

Mm-hmm.

That phrase gets such a bad rap and
you know, all the, again, themisogynist, oh, I need my safe
space.
And yet the very act of themsaying that means they're in a
safe space

Hmm.

all being in a safe spaces is not
feeling restricted.

Hmm.

So if you, if you can show up and
say whatever the hell you wantwithout fear of retribution or
consequences,

Mm-hmm.

that's called a safe space.

Yeah.

And so many guys are viewing it
again as this feminineeffeminate, oh, you gotta be
comfy and cozy.
Yeah.
What are you doing when you goto the bar and watch a game?
You're comfy and cozy drinkingyour beer high five and eating
wings.
That is your safe space.

Yeah.

So it it, it's across the board for
all of us.
It's just how we view thosethings and then label them as
for men or for women when it'sall the same thing.
It's just a different iteration.

Right.
Huh?
No, I appreciate that.
And talking about, yeah, whereis your safe space and making
that, yeah.
Calling it what it

Yeah.

Um, and I also thought it was
interesting, like I'm all aboutaccountability.
And so kind of, it sounds likefrom what you're saying, the
accountability piece for thewomen is allow the men to have
their feelings without shamingit.
It was interesting when you saidmen are hyper aware of
disapproval, like being aware ofhow is it that I am showing up?

Huge.

want an emotionally intelligent man,
how am I responding to make itsafe so that I can be that safe
space?
And then also for the menpracticing again, that emotional
intelligence of, of channelingthe emotions in, well, I don't
wanna say safe ways, but I mean,as we've talked about, you know,
sometimes it might be theexplosion of anger, which is
gonna be vastly different thanlike the expression of anger.

(46:20):
It's the

Yes.

versus the reacting,

I would say healthy ways, right?
Beneficial ways for theconversation.
And here's a, uh, two really bigthings.
Uh, number one.
Boundaries.
And I think it, it would helpeverybody to get a firm
definition on this because thisword gets, you know, sent around
all over the place and so manypeople don't realize what it is.

Mm-hmm.

many men view boundaries or, or think
that rules are boundaries.
I, I'm sure you run into this,right?
Oh, no, you're, you're notallowed to go over, you know, I
don't want you out clubbing.
You're not gonna do that.
And it was like, no, I'm justsetting a boundary.
No, dude, you're setting a ruleand you're trying to control
someone else's behavior,

Yep.

a boundary.
And I, I know I'm not tellingyou anything you don't know.
Um, a boundary is for you.
You are setting a boundaryaround someone else's action
that if they cross thatboundary, you will take a, a
reciprocal action that is aconsequence to them doing that.

(47:23):
So if you're gonna speak to methat way, I'm going to leave the
room.
I am not gonna continue talkingto you.
If you're gonna talk to me thatway.
That is a boundary,

Mm-hmm.

right?
So as, as much as I'm sayingthat women, excuse me, need to
watch their own misogyny and,and try their best to be a safe
space, they also need to settheir boundaries because there
are plenty of men who will just,oh, you're my safe space,

Yeah.

know, and then it's just, oh, that's
not healthy either, man.
You don't dump your emotions onsomeone who's willing to talk to
you about them.
And that's the other reason thatmen need community, and men need
brotherhoods to have thisexperience with other men
instead of just assuming to dumpit all on the, the women in
their lives.

yeah, yeah.
So in addition to practicingboundaries, what are some other
practical tools or strategiesthat men can use, um, to help
them to regulate and expresstheir emotions in more healthy
ways?

Okay.
I, I, uh.
I have something specific that Iwanted to look up.
'cause in my notes, um, I wasreminded and I didn't wanna
forget any of these, number onefor sure.
Uh, I have so many notes.
I really wanted to talk about alot of stuff.

Oh good.

Um, no, and I, I, I, I really love
being able to have thesediscussions because matter of
factly discussing this stuff isso important, especially after
years and years of, of, yeah, Igrew up Irish Catholic.
You didn't talk about anythingunless we absolutely had to, and
then it was as quick as possibleto get back to normal.
You know, like, yeah, I don'twant to be feeling this for too

(49:05):
long.
Hurry up.
Um, okay, here we go.
So I'm just gonna list themquick and then I'll give you
the, the deeper explanations.
So community, the emotion wheeli statements.
Grounding, breathing and presentmoment exercises and

(49:28):
understanding the vagus nerveand the, uh, sympathetic nervous
system.

Awesome.

So those are five real, like,
practical things that you cando.
First of all, community is moreof a bigger overarching one that
you build over time.
Of course, the,

Mm-hmm.

the other ones you can do of your
own accord whenever you want.
So, um, speaking of community, Iactually have, I've, I've
started a meetup group for menin general, but fathers
specifically stay at home.
Dads even, even more.
But, um, it's basically we go tothe park once a week'cause I

(50:11):
wanna bring my daughter thereanyway and the kids play in the
playground and we can havebasically a community men's
circle and go through some of.
My techniques and things andguys can bring their stuff and
we can work on it.

That's awesome,

Um, so I, I'm gonna be doing that
once a week here.
Obviously gonna be in LA'causethat's where I am, but I'm also
doing a once a month zoom callfor anyone who can't make it to
those, so.

awesome.
And yeah, and if they find your,I'm gonna put all of your
contact information in the

Sure.

so if they find that they can get
in touch with the once a monthzoom call'cause that

Yeah, absolutely.
And we'll go through, uh, thehero training aspects of things.
I have something called emotionsurfing that helps you in the
moment.
Um, and I can explain that, uh,that's part of answering this
question for you anyway.

Mm-hmm.

but going back to, uh, the emotion
wheel, if you don't know whatthe emotion wheel is, and I know
you do, um, there's a, a greatone.
You can go to the Gottman group.
Um, they have a great one ontheir website, but just Google
emotion wheel and you will get.
Hundreds of iterations.
They even have them for kids.
It is such a great little tool.
It's basically in the, well,it's a wheel, right?

(51:24):
And the, the hub of the wheel isthe core emotions like anger,
sadness, fear, and then eachconcentric circle that goes out
there are more and lesscomplicated ones.
But each concentric circle hasmore subtle iterations of the
core emotion.
So you can, being able toidentify and label what you're
feeling is a big part of theprocess.

(51:46):
So having that tool there, andit's in my hero training to, uh,
have that tool in there for thatreason.

Mm-hmm.

Um, but just being able to identify
what you're feeling morespecifically allows more
awareness then allows, oh, okay.
So not only are you aware ofwhat it is, you are aware of
where it is in your body, how itfeels.
So you're building the skill ofrecognition.
So when it comes up again,you're like, oh, I know what

(52:13):
this is.
I know how to deal with it, howto regulate.
So it's the starting process ofgetting to build that skill.

So good.
Yeah.
I think that a lot of people,especially if they're more on
the more emotionally immatureside, they basically know three
emotions.
They know sad, mad, and glad.

Yeah.

And so really like taking that time
to really identify the emotion.
Like, okay, well am I, am I sador am I grieving?
Am

Mm-hmm.

or am I anxious?

Absolutely.

are so close,

Yes.

or am I unseen?
But getting really clear on whatthe emotion

Mm-hmm.

much information so you can actually
get your need met,

There it is.

to teach you something.

There it is.

I love that big fan of the emotion
wheel.

Nice.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and it's, uh, I wouldintroduce it to kids as well.
It's, it's a great tool.
Um, number three I statements, abig one that I tell my clients
is when you're feeling somethingand when you can identify it.
And it sounds so cheesy, and Iknow it does believe me, uh,
when I say it to myself, youknow, the, uh, critic part of my

(53:15):
brain goes, oh, you're such anidiot.
Don't say that.
You know, and it's, I amfeeling, insert the emotion, and
that's okay.
That's all.
It's, I'm feeling angry, andthat's okay.
But what you're doing is you'retaking away the story and the
meaning and the judgment,because it's simply information.
It's chemical, hormonalinformation your body is giving

(53:35):
you as a reaction to anexperience.
That's it.
But then we add all this meaningand story around where it's
coming from and why it's there,and how we should feel about it,
and what this person's gonnathink.
That's the stuff that is theissue.
And that's my favorite thingabout emotions.
Chemically speaking.
And emotion lasts 90 seconds.

(53:56):
Well,

that amazing?

that can't happen, right?
Yeah.

feel it for 90 seconds

Yeah.

about how much time and energy we
invest into resisting it whenit's like, dude, if you could
just sit there for 90 secondsand say, Hey, I'm feeling this
way, and

Yeah.
Yeah,

and then you're done.

yeah.
And that's the thing.

better than resisting for years and
then blowing up,

Well, yeah, and, and just the fact
that then you don't have tocontinue feeling it because
there's this assumption that,oh, well I'm, I'm pissed off.
Well, if that's true, then whyam I pissed off days and weeks
later?
Because you keep tellingyourself the story that your
system goes, oh, we're not donewith this emotion yet, so let's

(54:37):
keep the chemicals going.

Mm-hmm.

So you think you are doing it in
response to your body continuingto give you this emotion.
And it's really your body keepcontinuing to give you the
emotion in response to the storyyou're telling.

Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, and I heard one definitionof trauma that I thought was
super interesting, but they saidtrauma is just unprocessed
emotion.

Yes.

and it kind of blew my mind.
'cause I think we think abouttrauma as a huge, major

Uh huh.

but, but when it's unprocessed
emotion and you're choosing to,you know, ruminate on it or
suppress it or, you know,

Yeah,

it, it's kind of self-inflicted
trauma.
I mean, maybe something reallydid happen that's

no, of course, of course.

how many little things are, we are
self-inflicted simply becausewe're not taking the time to
just feel it.

Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and that's, that's theultimate, I like my 6-year-old
refuses to take medicine.
Just absolutely can't stand it.
You know?
Uh, you have 101 fever, you'resweating and your head is
pounding, but somehow taking ajust kind of tastes bad daddy.
That's worse than, but that'sthe thing.

a.

It.
And I'm like, kiddo, I am notgonna hold you down and shove it
down your throat, but I'mtelling you, you're going to
feel better if you do this.
I don't wanna do it.
So she stays miserable simplybecause she doesn't want a
little discomfort in her mouth.
So yeah, it, it's that, Nope,I'm not gonna deal with this and
I'm just gonna pretend that howI am experiencing things going

(56:11):
forward is normal

Yeah.

and it's not.

that.
Yep.
So take the time to process it.

Yes.

the I statements.
I'm feeling this way, and it'sokay.
All right.
And number four,

Number four.

maryann-walker--she- (56:24):
practicing presence.
Yeah.
Tell us more on that one.

Okay.
Oh, I lose my place.
I did, I'm talking too much.
Um, grounding.
Oh, shoot.
I went way down.
Um, grounding, breathing, and.
Uh, uh, present momentexercises,

Mm-hmm.

So the reason this is important is
because basically what you'retrying to do is get yourself out
of your amygdala, out of youremotional brain, and into your
logic center, because then youcan think rationally if, if
you're stuck in your fight orflight, your parasympathetic
nervous system, you are actingpurely on emotion.

(57:11):
And that can be a good thingwhen it's called for.
But so many of those experiencesare in interactions and fights
and relationship and all ofthat, and that's when it doesn't
serve you right?
So being able to breathe andground yourself interrupts the
emotional experience you'rehaving and brings you back to

(57:32):
your logic center.
It doesn't make the emotion justgo away.

Mm-hmm.

It just, it's kind of like, it, it
brings your head above thesurface of the water with regard
to, and then you can kind ofsurvey like, oh, okay.
And then you move intosomething.
And this is, I, I call it thewatcher.
It's the part of yourself thatnotices how you're feeling.
And I, I, I wanna give thisperson credit, but I forget
their name.

(57:56):
I, it was a TikTok that I saw,and I, I thought it was such a
great way of saying it.
The part of you that noticesyou're angry isn't angry.

Hmm.
I love that.

So, and, and I use that often
because that is you returning toyour rational thought.

Yeah.

a part, the higher part of you
that isn't experiencing theemotion that is, and I view it
kind of like, and the example Ilike to use,'cause this works
for men big time, is in theAvengers, Dr.
Strange,

Mm-hmm.

has that ability where he can
basically just hit you in thechest and your essence pulls out
of your body.

Yeah.

It's kind of like that, where you
pull back and you can watchyourself being angry

Hmm.

and you, and this is where you make
those decisions from.
I'm gonna pause, I'm gonnabreathe, I'm gonna ground
myself.

Yeah.
I mean, it sounds likeessentially stepping out of that
fight or flight response andturning on that prefrontal
cortex, which is the watcher,right.

Yeah,

you be more consciously aware

yeah.
Am

be able to act rather than react
through that fight or flightlens.
So yeah, I love that.

And a lot of this, a lot of this
comes from learning aboutdealing with tantrums as a
parent, because you'rebasically, you're.
You're parenting yourselfthrough a tantrum is what you're
doing,

Right.

right?
But especially guys who don'twant to think of it that way.
Um, but you're really, you're,you are giving yourself the
ability to say, oh, buddy, it'sokay.
I know you're pissed off.
Or I, I, you know, and it's notin a, a demeaning way.
It's, it's almost like a childor like a dog or, you know, it's

(59:43):
just like, oh, you don'tunderstand.
Ah, it's okay.
I'm here for you.
Right.
So when you can move into thatpart of yourself, you have this
ability to really have morecontrol.
And that's the point herotraining is, is creating these
pockets of control in a usuallyhow, how it feels a very

(01:00:05):
uncontrollable situation.
Right.
So the, the present moment, uh,exercise that I love, and this
is good for kids who are havingtantrums.

maryann-walker--she-her (01:00:15):
Mm-hmm.

chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04- (01:00:15):
You ask them to point out things in
the room, what color is thatlamp?
How, you know, what, what sizeis that picture frame?
You know, uh, you're askingabout tangible things that they
have to use their logical brainto identify.

maryann-walker--she-her- (01:00:33):
Right.

chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_04-1 (01:00:34):
It forces you out of your emotion
if only for that moment intoyour logic.

maryann-walker--she-her-_ (01:00:39):
Yeah.

And it helps, it helps pull you out
of the fight or flight.

maryann-walker--she-her-_1_04 (01:00:43):
I love that.
So yes, really bring yourselfback.
And I love how you said, ohyeah, it's just parenting
yourself through a

chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_0 (01:00:48):
Yeah,

maryann-walker--she-her-_1_ (01:00:48):
I'm gonna start using that in my
like self-coach now.
Like, like, all right, this is alittle bit of a tantrum.

yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh God, I have him all the time.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Yeah.
Because when you get stuck inyour head, it,

chris-o-neil--he-him-_1 (01:01:00):
Mm-hmm.

see it as throwing a tantrum, but
that's really what it

chris-o-neil--he-him-_1_ (01:01:03):
Right.
We're just not adding

and

We're, we're just not.
We're not adding the childphysicality of flopping on the
ground and going Yeah.
But it's the same thing ishappening in our head,

right.

so, yeah.

not acting out, like it might be
silent and in your head thatyou're throwing a tantrum is

Mm-hmm.
Oh yeah.

That's

Mm-hmm.

'cause when you considered a tantrum,
then you want to show up as theadult.

Right.

maryann-walker--she-her-_1 (01:01:30):
it's like, okay, I guess I will
parent myself through this

Yeah.

and act like a grownup instead of
like the 2-year-old that's in myhead right now.

Yes.
And this, this connects big timeto, and I, why do I feel like I
already mentioned this, but theidea that actions and emotions
are not the same thing.
I think I mentioned it earlier,but

yeah.
But expand on it.

Yeah.
'cause this is, and this ishuge, and this is what that
pause in the hero training is.
It's right, right in betweenexperience and um, response.
That's the place where you havecontrol, because.
So many people, oh, phraseslike, what was I supposed to do?
Or, I didn't have a choice.

(01:02:10):
Right?
What you're really saying is Ididn't choose to manage my
actions.
I allowed the emotion to informmy actions, and I just went with
it.
That is that emotional wave.

Huh?
I allowed the emotion to controlmy actions.

Yeah,

That's a big deal, because then you're
choosing it essentially.
I

Oh, yeah.

with anger, we just assume, well,
it's everybody else's fault.
If everybody else would just doexactly what I wanted them to
do, then I wouldn't ever actpoorly.
But that's never gonna

No, no, no, no.
You basically succumbed to anoverwhelming emotional
experience, and the skill isfeeling that emotion, allowing
that emotion,

Mm-hmm.

curbing the behavior.
So when, when people say, oh,you shouldn't be angry at that.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I should.
'cause I am.
There is no should or shouldn't,I am or I am not.

Mm-hmm.

But you shouldn't punch someone in
the face because you're angryabout that, that is the should
or shouldn't.
So,

emotion is not the

right.

you choose to respond to it might
be.

And unfortunately, many people
equate emotion and action inthat way.

Hmm.

So they, they justify their actions
because of their emotion, which

Yeah.

are two separate things.

Hmm.
Interesting.
Yeah.
This has been such a fascinatingconversation.
Okay, wait, and then we need totouch too on, there's one more,
right.

Oh,

the vagus nerve and sympathetic
nervous system.
Can we

yes.
All right.
So this is huge because, um, thevagus nerve or the vagal nerve
comes from your spine around,uh, on either side of your.
Chest cavity basically,

Mm-hmm.

it connects to your, uh, heart and
your digestive system.
So it's, it's the main branch ofnerves.
That part of your nervous systemthat, that has direct access to
all of the, all the stuff.
You don't control

Mm-hmm.

You're blinking, you know, the stuff
you can control, but that, youknow, um, not the average person
can't control their heartbeat,but there are monks who can do
it.
Um, so stuff like that, that youdon't control your autonomic
stuff.

Mm-hmm.

And when you can, uh, adjust how the
vagal nerve is reacting, thatalso allows you to calm, it gets
you out of fight or flightbecause that.
Part of your body has directaccess.
So, um, one of my absolutefavorite things, uh, I have

(01:04:53):
other healthcare practitionersin my life and, and one of them,
um, whenever he sees me it,first he gives me a hug and then
he puts one hand on my chest,one hand on my back, directly
across me each other and justbreathes for like 30 seconds.

Hmm.

And that right there,'cause you're
hitting the vagus nerves

Yeah.

and you feel supported, you feel
connected

Mm-hmm.

and it's, you feel held.
And there is somethinginherently comforting about
being held,

Yeah.

as a man where so many of us don't
feel comfortable being held byanyone but a woman that we're.
Physically intimate with, right?

Mm-hmm.

even just a friend.
I can give you a hug, but ifit's too long, then oh whoa.
Hey, you know?
Um, but it, if it's another guy,forget about it.
I'll, you know, I'll give you a,I'll give you a, a bro tap and
then handshake and we're, we'regood.
Um, it's actually, uh, achallenge that I have in uh, um,
a program that I created for menis you have to hug another man

(01:05:58):
through two full breaths

Huh?

just because of how uncomfortable it
is

Yeah.

to get used to the fact that, you
know, being,'cause we gotta getrid of the idea that being
intimate beings being sexual.
'cause it's not, it's not thesame thing.

Yep.

Um, so understanding how the vagus
nerve works

Mm-hmm.

and even putting an ice pack here to
cool that part of your bodyhelps.
And as you're breathing slow,deep breaths.
Also activate or deactivate thevagus nerve.
So just your awareness of thatpart of your body and how it
functions,

Mm-hmm

allows for those tools and things you
can do in the moment.

hmm.
That is so fascinating.
Chris, this has been such anamazing conversation, and I know
we've touched on so many things,but if you had to pick one key
takeaway

Hmm.

what would you like people to really
remember?

Um, well, I think, I think it's kind
of what we started with, theidea that this is not a trait,
it's a skill.
This is not something that somepeople have and some people
don't or that you shouldn'thave, uh, because you're a man.

Mm-hmm.

is a choice.
This is something you can learn.
And proof of that is because ofwhat you have learned,

Mm-hmm.

all of the ways that you interact
and you function that.
Continue to bring up thesechallenges for you, these
emotional challenges and dealingwith it the way you have been,
either hasn't worked or hasn'tworked in the way you'd like.

Mm-hmm.

The reason for that is you're not
viewing it correctly.
So if you can just get it out ofyour head that this is just, oh,
well, I'm a man and this is howit is, you can choose not to do
it, and that's perfectly fine.
I'm not telling you what you'resupposed to do.
I'm telling you that if you wantthis, it's very achievable, but

(01:07:57):
it's like any other skill.
You're gonna be crap editedfirst and you gotta practice.
And when you can surroundyourself with other people who
support that and practice withyou, again,

Mm-hmm.

chris-o-neil--he-him-_ (01:08:12):
learning guitar.
It's it.
It's whatever you're doing.
Surround yourself with peoplewho are also doing that.
You will get out of the, um,judgment and shame aspect of it
and be able to show upauthentically and then have a
better experience.
So there you go.

love that.
Yeah.
That's beautiful.
And like kind of justacknowledging, I love how you
said yeah, you need toacknowledge what isn't working.

Hmm.

really often we think, okay, well what
I'm doing not isn't working, soI'm gonna try doing exactly what
I've been doing harder.

Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.

It's like maybe it's time for
something new, like be willingto admit,

chris-o-neil--he-hi (01:08:46):
Absolutely.

isn't getting me the result that I
want.
else is available?
What else is out there?
And speaking of, how can peoplefind you if they wanna learn
more about what you've got goingon?

chris-o-neil--he-hi (01:08:56):
Absolutely.
Um, so I'm keeping it simpletoday.
Um, I am just gonna giveeveryone my TikTok handle and my
email address.
So, uh, it's at Dad daily, butit's dad underscore daily, so
D-A-D-D-I-N gre, D-A-I-L-Y, andthen my email address is
Daddying Daily, 1980.

(01:09:17):
Nice little iteration there, um,daring Daily, 1 9 8 0 at Gmail.
So, um, if you have interest, ifyou have questions, you wanna
reach out, um, I am, I reallypulled back from trying to have,
you know, a funnel system and apayment system and all, like, I

(01:09:39):
just work with who wants to workwith me, and we discuss what my
time and their, uh, value slashmoney is worth and we figure it
out.
So, um, if you wanna do thiswork, uh, I always do free
consultations and we can justhave a conversation.
You can also join the freegroups.
I'm there for that.
Um, the, I will send you thelink to the meetup group so you

(01:10:03):
can, you can post that.
Um, but yeah, just find me onTikTok, shoot me a DM or shoot
me an email and we'll have atalk.

Yeah, go follow Chris.
He has amazing content.
I love how engaged he is withall of his listeners.
Like somebody comments and he'lldo a whole post on just that one
idea.
And so yeah, everybody should gofollow him.
I know he's a coach for men, butgo follow him ladies.
He's got some good content.
So thank you so much for being

I ab I appreciate it very much,
MaryAnn.
Thank you so much.
And, and I do have 50% femaleaudience, so I'm doing something
right there too.

Yeah.
Awesome.
Well, thank you so much.
Yeah.
Your wealth of knowledge and Ilearned a lot today, so thanks
for being here.

Thank you for having me again.
It was great to be here.
I.

All right, well have a great week
everybody.
We'll see you next time.

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