June 2, 2025 • 14 mins
Tesla Launches Driverless Ride-Hailing Service in Austin with Model Y Fleet
EV Batteries Got 20% Cheaper Last Year
Vanadium Flow Batteries Demystified
#EV, #Cleantech, #VanadiumFlowBatteries, #Tesla, #RideHailing, #ModelY, #BatteryTechnology
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to Innovation Pulse, your quick no-nonsense update on the latest in clean tech and EVs.
(00:10):
First, we will cover the latest news. Tesla is launching a driverless ride-hailing service
in Austin, and battery prices are dropping as LFP batteries gain market share. After this,
we'll dive deep into the emerging potential of vanadium flow batteries, a sustainable and
flexible alternative to lithium-ion systems. Tesla plans to launch its driverless ride-hailing
(00:36):
service in Austin, Texas on June 12th, marking a shift from traditional vehicles to self-driving
technology. Initially, the service will include about 10 Model Y vehicles in select areas and
will be invite only. Elon Musk aims to expand the fleet to thousands of robotaxis within months,
(00:57):
depending on permitting speeds. Austin has established a task force to monitor autonomous
vehicle incidents, though Tesla isn't yet listed as an operator there. Remote human operators will
assist if needed. Tesla faces competition from Waymo, which already operates in Austin and other
cities. Despite Tesla's optimism about scaling rapidly due to its existing vehicle fleet with
(01:22):
full self-driving software, the safety of its system remains under scrutiny as its driver assistance
technologies have been linked to numerous accidents. Battery prices for electric vehicles, EVs,
dropped 20% in 2024, marking the largest decrease since 2017, according to the International
(01:46):
Energy Agency. This decline is attributed to increased competition, production and demand
benefiting EV affordability. However, China's battery costs are declining faster due to its
stronghold on supply chains and technological advancements. In 2024, China produced 80% of
(02:06):
global battery cells. Lithium prices also fell by about 20% despite significantly higher demand.
LFP batteries, known for lower costs, have improved in performance and now dominate nearly half of
the global EV market, led by China. Their adoption is rising rapidly in Southeast Asia, Brazil and
(02:29):
India. Meanwhile, the US is expanding its manufacturing capacity, driven by tax credits,
although these may be at risk of removal. The global battery market is booming,
but America's future role remains uncertain. And now, pivot our discussion towards the main
clean tech topic. Today, we're going to explore one of the most promising developments in energy
(02:59):
storage technology that's been gaining serious attention across industries and even making
headlines in mainstream media. Vanadium flow batteries represent a fascinating alternative
to the lithium ion systems we've become so familiar with, offering some remarkable advantages
that could reshape how we think about storing energy. These systems promise longer lifespans,
(03:22):
minimal performance degradation over time, and the ability to operate across much wider temperature
ranges, all while potentially reducing the total cost of ownership significantly.
Thanks for that excellent introduction, Dana. I'm excited to dive into this topic with you today.
Why don't you kick us off with your first question?
(03:43):
Let's start with the basics. What exactly is a vanadium flow battery,
and how does it fundamentally differ from the lithium ion batteries most of us are familiar with?
A vanadium flow battery, or VFB, is a rechargeable electrochemical battery that stores energy in a
completely different way than lithium ion systems. While lithium ion batteries store energy using
(04:05):
solid forms of lithium, flow batteries use a liquid electrolyte that's stored in external tanks.
In VFBs specifically, this electrolyte is composed of vanadium dissolved in a stable,
non-flammable, water-based solution. What makes this particularly interesting is that vanadium itself
(04:26):
is a non-toxic, widely available metal that's typically used for making steel.
So we're taking a common industrial material and using it in an entirely different application for
energy storage. That water-based solution sounds much safer than what we typically hear about with
lithium systems. What are the main performance advantages that VFBs offer over traditional
(04:50):
lithium ion batteries? The performance benefits are really compelling. VFBs offer significantly
longer life with very little degradation of performance over time, plus they can operate
across a much wider temperature range than lithium systems. These advantages translate directly into
reduced cost of ownership over the battery's lifetime. The numbers are particularly striking
(05:15):
when you look at discharge cycles. Vanadium flow batteries can operate for well over 20,000 discharge
cycles, which is as much as five times that of lithium systems. When you factor in that kind of
longevity, the cost per discharge cycle becomes much lower than any other battery system currently
available. Those cycle numbers are impressive. I understand there's also something unique about
(05:40):
how power and energy work differently in VFBs compared to other battery types. Can you explain
that concept? Absolutely, and this is one of the most elegant aspects of flow battery design.
In a vanadium flow battery, power and energy are completely decoupled or separated. The power
capability is determined by the size of the stack, while the energy capacity is determined by the
(06:05):
volume of electrolyte in the tanks. This separation means you can scale each aspect independently
to fit any specific application. It's like being able to choose your engine size separately from
your fuel tank size, which gives you incredible flexibility in system design. That flexibility
sounds like it would solve some real-world problems. How does this compare to the limitations we see
(06:29):
with lithium systems when it comes to sizing and application matching? With lithium systems,
you're essentially stuck with specific power and energy specifications based on whatever the
manufacturer has decided to build into their particular model. When you're specifying a
lithium energy storage system, you typically have to oversize the system to make sure it covers
(06:51):
your specific power and energy requirements, even if that means you're paying for capacity you don't
actually need. VFB systems don't degrade over time like lithium does, so they can be designed to
precisely match the power and energy requirements of your site. Lithium systems, on the other hand,
must compensate for their natural degradation by being initially oversized, which obviously costs
(07:16):
more over the life of the system. Let's shift to environmental considerations. What does the
environmental impact picture look like when comparing these two technologies? The environmental
comparison is quite stark. Lithium ion batteries contain not just lithium, but also a variety of
other metals such as nickel and cobalt. According to a recent US Environmental Protection Agency
(07:39):
report entitled Design for the Environment, lithium ion batteries actually have the highest
potential for environmental impact compared to other battery technologies. The EPA has identified
several negative environmental consequences from lithium ion batteries, including impacts from
mining, contributions to the climate crisis, environmental pollution, and human health impacts.
(08:05):
Under US regulations, lithium ion batteries even received a class 9 miscellaneous hazardous
materials classification, which is actually higher than lead acid batteries that only get a class
8 classification. That classification seems concerning. What about the recycling challenges?
I imagine that hazardous classification creates some complications there as well.
(08:29):
Recycling lithium batteries is incredibly expensive and inefficient. Most of the metal
used in lithium batteries comes from mining, and Kelleher Environmental estimates that only 45%
of the lithium ion batteries sold annually will actually be recycled in 2024. That's a pretty
disappointing recovery rate. Even when we do process spent batteries to recover the metals and
(08:54):
reduce the need for new mining, the current processes only recover between 3 to 5% of the metal
inside the batteries. The hazardous waste classification also increases all the associated
fees for transportation, toxic metal treatment processing, disposal, and regulatory compliance.
And if lithium batteries aren't disposed of correctly and end up in landfills, they represent
(09:21):
environmental hazard due to possible toxic metal leakage.
Those recycling numbers are quite sobering. How does the recyclability picture look for
vanadium flow batteries in comparison? The contrast is remarkable. With vanadium flow batteries,
all major components are made of fully recyclable plastic and metals. Since everything is bolted
(09:41):
together, disassembling the systems is very straightforward, and processing is cost effective
because the majority of parts only require primary mechanical reprocessing. There are really only
two components that need any special treatment. The printed circuit board of the battery management
system requires the same process used for electronic waste like computer motherboards.
(10:05):
The electrolyte requires chemical processing, but that's much simpler than what lithium systems
require. What about the actual recyclability rates? Are we talking about theoretical recyclability or
something that's actually achievable in practice? With vanadium flow batteries, all parts and components
have a recyclability factor close to 100%. The electrolyte can be processed and reused,
(10:28):
and 100% of the vanadium can be extracted and reused for other applications with no impact on
primary mining whatsoever. These batteries also contain no toxic metals, such as lead, cadmium,
zinc, and nickel. As an added benefit, the acidity levels are much lower than lead acid batteries,
(10:50):
making them safer to handle throughout their life cycle.
Let's talk about the broader life cycle impact. How do these systems compare when you look at
the total number of battery replacements needed over time? The life cycle comparison really drives
home the sustainability advantage. In its lifespan, one vanadium flow battery avoids the disposal,
(11:11):
processing, and landfill impact of eight lead acid batteries or four lithium ion batteries.
When you think about the cumulative environmental impact of manufacturing,
transporting, installing, and eventually disposing of multiple battery systems versus
just maintaining one VFB system with the same electrolyte for decades, the environmental case
(11:35):
becomes very compelling. We've covered a lot of technical and environmental ground. For someone
trying to understand whether this technology is ready for real-world deployment, what would you
say about the current state of vanadium flow battery technology? Vanadium flow battery technology is
absolutely ready for deployment and is already being implemented across various industries.
(11:56):
The technology has moved well beyond the experimental phase and is gaining serious
attention not just from technical communities, but from industries looking for reliable,
long-term energy storage solutions. The combination of technical advantages,
cost benefits over the system lifetime, and environmental benefits makes VFBs particularly
(12:19):
attractive for applications where long-term reliability and sustainability are priorities.
As more people become aware of both the performance capabilities and the environmental
advantages, we're seeing increased adoption across different sectors. Any final thoughts on
what makes vanadium flow batteries such a compelling technology for the future of energy
(12:40):
storage? I think what's most compelling is that VFBs solve multiple problems simultaneously.
They're not just about better performance or just about environmental benefits,
they deliver on both fronts while also providing economic advantages over their operational lifetime.
The fact that you can scale power and energy independently combined with minimal degradation
(13:03):
and exceptional recyclability makes them uniquely suited for our evolving energy landscape.
As we move toward more renewable energy integration and need storage systems that can
reliably operate for decades, vanadium flow batteries represent a mature, proven technology
that's ready to meet those challenges. Head on.
(13:25):
That's a wrap for today's podcast. We explored Tesla's upcoming driverless
ride-hailing service in Austin and the rise of vanadium flow batteries as a sustainable
alternative to lithium-ion systems. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and share this episode with
(13:47):
your friends and colleagues so they can also stay updated on the latest news and gain powerful
insights. Stay tuned for more updates.
Welcome to Innovation Pulse, your quick no-nonsense update on the latest in clean tech and EVs.
(00:10):
First, we will cover the latest news. Tesla is launching a driverless ride-hailing service
in Austin, and battery prices are dropping as LFP batteries gain market share. After this,
we'll dive deep into the emerging potential of vanadium flow batteries, a sustainable and
flexible alternative to lithium-ion systems. Tesla plans to launch its driverless ride-hailing
(00:36):
service in Austin, Texas on June 12th, marking a shift from traditional vehicles to self-driving
technology. Initially, the service will include about 10 Model Y vehicles in select areas and
will be invite only. Elon Musk aims to expand the fleet to thousands of robotaxis within months,
(00:57):
depending on permitting speeds. Austin has established a task force to monitor autonomous
vehicle incidents, though Tesla isn't yet listed as an operator there. Remote human operators will
assist if needed. Tesla faces competition from Waymo, which already operates in Austin and other
cities. Despite Tesla's optimism about scaling rapidly due to its existing vehicle fleet with
(01:22):
full self-driving software, the safety of its system remains under scrutiny as its driver assistance
technologies have been linked to numerous accidents. Battery prices for electric vehicles, EVs,
dropped 20% in 2024, marking the largest decrease since 2017, according to the International
(01:46):
Energy Agency. This decline is attributed to increased competition, production and demand
benefiting EV affordability. However, China's battery costs are declining faster due to its
stronghold on supply chains and technological advancements. In 2024, China produced 80% of
(02:06):
global battery cells. Lithium prices also fell by about 20% despite significantly higher demand.
LFP batteries, known for lower costs, have improved in performance and now dominate nearly half of
the global EV market, led by China. Their adoption is rising rapidly in Southeast Asia, Brazil and
(02:29):
India. Meanwhile, the US is expanding its manufacturing capacity, driven by tax credits,
although these may be at risk of removal. The global battery market is booming,
but America's future role remains uncertain. And now, pivot our discussion towards the main
clean tech topic. Today, we're going to explore one of the most promising developments in energy
(02:59):
storage technology that's been gaining serious attention across industries and even making
headlines in mainstream media. Vanadium flow batteries represent a fascinating alternative
to the lithium ion systems we've become so familiar with, offering some remarkable advantages
that could reshape how we think about storing energy. These systems promise longer lifespans,
(03:22):
minimal performance degradation over time, and the ability to operate across much wider temperature
ranges, all while potentially reducing the total cost of ownership significantly.
Thanks for that excellent introduction, Dana. I'm excited to dive into this topic with you today.
Why don't you kick us off with your first question?
(03:43):
Let's start with the basics. What exactly is a vanadium flow battery,
and how does it fundamentally differ from the lithium ion batteries most of us are familiar with?
A vanadium flow battery, or VFB, is a rechargeable electrochemical battery that stores energy in a
completely different way than lithium ion systems. While lithium ion batteries store energy using
(04:05):
solid forms of lithium, flow batteries use a liquid electrolyte that's stored in external tanks.
In VFBs specifically, this electrolyte is composed of vanadium dissolved in a stable,
non-flammable, water-based solution. What makes this particularly interesting is that vanadium itself
(04:26):
is a non-toxic, widely available metal that's typically used for making steel.
So we're taking a common industrial material and using it in an entirely different application for
energy storage. That water-based solution sounds much safer than what we typically hear about with
lithium systems. What are the main performance advantages that VFBs offer over traditional
(04:50):
lithium ion batteries? The performance benefits are really compelling. VFBs offer significantly
longer life with very little degradation of performance over time, plus they can operate
across a much wider temperature range than lithium systems. These advantages translate directly into
reduced cost of ownership over the battery's lifetime. The numbers are particularly striking
(05:15):
when you look at discharge cycles. Vanadium flow batteries can operate for well over 20,000 discharge
cycles, which is as much as five times that of lithium systems. When you factor in that kind of
longevity, the cost per discharge cycle becomes much lower than any other battery system currently
available. Those cycle numbers are impressive. I understand there's also something unique about
(05:40):
how power and energy work differently in VFBs compared to other battery types. Can you explain
that concept? Absolutely, and this is one of the most elegant aspects of flow battery design.
In a vanadium flow battery, power and energy are completely decoupled or separated. The power
capability is determined by the size of the stack, while the energy capacity is determined by the
(06:05):
volume of electrolyte in the tanks. This separation means you can scale each aspect independently
to fit any specific application. It's like being able to choose your engine size separately from
your fuel tank size, which gives you incredible flexibility in system design. That flexibility
sounds like it would solve some real-world problems. How does this compare to the limitations we see
(06:29):
with lithium systems when it comes to sizing and application matching? With lithium systems,
you're essentially stuck with specific power and energy specifications based on whatever the
manufacturer has decided to build into their particular model. When you're specifying a
lithium energy storage system, you typically have to oversize the system to make sure it covers
(06:51):
your specific power and energy requirements, even if that means you're paying for capacity you don't
actually need. VFB systems don't degrade over time like lithium does, so they can be designed to
precisely match the power and energy requirements of your site. Lithium systems, on the other hand,
must compensate for their natural degradation by being initially oversized, which obviously costs
(07:16):
more over the life of the system. Let's shift to environmental considerations. What does the
environmental impact picture look like when comparing these two technologies? The environmental
comparison is quite stark. Lithium ion batteries contain not just lithium, but also a variety of
other metals such as nickel and cobalt. According to a recent US Environmental Protection Agency
(07:39):
report entitled Design for the Environment, lithium ion batteries actually have the highest
potential for environmental impact compared to other battery technologies. The EPA has identified
several negative environmental consequences from lithium ion batteries, including impacts from
mining, contributions to the climate crisis, environmental pollution, and human health impacts.
(08:05):
Under US regulations, lithium ion batteries even received a class 9 miscellaneous hazardous
materials classification, which is actually higher than lead acid batteries that only get a class
8 classification. That classification seems concerning. What about the recycling challenges?
I imagine that hazardous classification creates some complications there as well.
(08:29):
Recycling lithium batteries is incredibly expensive and inefficient. Most of the metal
used in lithium batteries comes from mining, and Kelleher Environmental estimates that only 45%
of the lithium ion batteries sold annually will actually be recycled in 2024. That's a pretty
disappointing recovery rate. Even when we do process spent batteries to recover the metals and
(08:54):
reduce the need for new mining, the current processes only recover between 3 to 5% of the metal
inside the batteries. The hazardous waste classification also increases all the associated
fees for transportation, toxic metal treatment processing, disposal, and regulatory compliance.
And if lithium batteries aren't disposed of correctly and end up in landfills, they represent
(09:21):
environmental hazard due to possible toxic metal leakage.
Those recycling numbers are quite sobering. How does the recyclability picture look for
vanadium flow batteries in comparison? The contrast is remarkable. With vanadium flow batteries,
all major components are made of fully recyclable plastic and metals. Since everything is bolted
(09:41):
together, disassembling the systems is very straightforward, and processing is cost effective
because the majority of parts only require primary mechanical reprocessing. There are really only
two components that need any special treatment. The printed circuit board of the battery management
system requires the same process used for electronic waste like computer motherboards.
(10:05):
The electrolyte requires chemical processing, but that's much simpler than what lithium systems
require. What about the actual recyclability rates? Are we talking about theoretical recyclability or
something that's actually achievable in practice? With vanadium flow batteries, all parts and components
have a recyclability factor close to 100%. The electrolyte can be processed and reused,
(10:28):
and 100% of the vanadium can be extracted and reused for other applications with no impact on
primary mining whatsoever. These batteries also contain no toxic metals, such as lead, cadmium,
zinc, and nickel. As an added benefit, the acidity levels are much lower than lead acid batteries,
(10:50):
making them safer to handle throughout their life cycle.
Let's talk about the broader life cycle impact. How do these systems compare when you look at
the total number of battery replacements needed over time? The life cycle comparison really drives
home the sustainability advantage. In its lifespan, one vanadium flow battery avoids the disposal,
(11:11):
processing, and landfill impact of eight lead acid batteries or four lithium ion batteries.
When you think about the cumulative environmental impact of manufacturing,
transporting, installing, and eventually disposing of multiple battery systems versus
just maintaining one VFB system with the same electrolyte for decades, the environmental case
(11:35):
becomes very compelling. We've covered a lot of technical and environmental ground. For someone
trying to understand whether this technology is ready for real-world deployment, what would you
say about the current state of vanadium flow battery technology? Vanadium flow battery technology is
absolutely ready for deployment and is already being implemented across various industries.
(11:56):
The technology has moved well beyond the experimental phase and is gaining serious
attention not just from technical communities, but from industries looking for reliable,
long-term energy storage solutions. The combination of technical advantages,
cost benefits over the system lifetime, and environmental benefits makes VFBs particularly
(12:19):
attractive for applications where long-term reliability and sustainability are priorities.
As more people become aware of both the performance capabilities and the environmental
advantages, we're seeing increased adoption across different sectors. Any final thoughts on
what makes vanadium flow batteries such a compelling technology for the future of energy
(12:40):
storage? I think what's most compelling is that VFBs solve multiple problems simultaneously.
They're not just about better performance or just about environmental benefits,
they deliver on both fronts while also providing economic advantages over their operational lifetime.
The fact that you can scale power and energy independently combined with minimal degradation
(13:03):
and exceptional recyclability makes them uniquely suited for our evolving energy landscape.
As we move toward more renewable energy integration and need storage systems that can
reliably operate for decades, vanadium flow batteries represent a mature, proven technology
that's ready to meet those challenges. Head on.
(13:25):
That's a wrap for today's podcast. We explored Tesla's upcoming driverless
ride-hailing service in Austin and the rise of vanadium flow batteries as a sustainable
alternative to lithium-ion systems. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and share this episode with
(13:47):
your friends and colleagues so they can also stay updated on the latest news and gain powerful
insights. Stay tuned for more updates.
Popular Podcasts
Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club
Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club — the podcast where great stories, bold women, and irresistible conversations collide! Hosted by award-winning journalist Danielle Robay, each week new episodes balance thoughtful literary insight with the fervor of buzzy book trends, pop culture and more. Bookmarked brings together celebrities, tastemakers, influencers and authors from Reese's Book Club and beyond to share stories that transcend the page. Pull up a chair. You’re not just listening — you’re part of the conversation.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com