September 8, 2025 • 15 mins
The world's largest sand battery just went live in Finland
Natron Closes After 12 Years Amid Certification and Financial Challenges in Battery Market
How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Chinese Engineering
#SpotifyEV, #ChineseEngineering, #SandBattery, #Finland, #BatteryMarket, #Natron, #EngineeringInnovation
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to Innovation Pulse, your quick no-nonsense update on the latest in clean tech and EVs.
(00:10):
First, we will cover the latest news.
In Finland, a new sand battery by Polar Night Energy cuts heating emissions by 70%, while
Natron's sodium ion battery startup closes due to commercialization challenges in the
US.
After this, we'll dive deep into the rise of BYD in the global EV market and its impact
(00:33):
on the automotive industry.
Stay tuned.
Join us as we discuss the innovative sand battery.
In the Finnish town of Pornäinen, an industrial-scale sand battery has been inaugurated, replacing
a wood chip power plant.
This innovative battery, developed by Polar Night Energy, aims to cut local heating network
(00:54):
carbon emissions by up to 70%.
Standing 42 feet tall and 50 feet wide, it stores up to 100 megawatt hours of energy
with a 90% efficiency.
This thermal energy storage system harnesses excess renewable electricity to heat sand
to 1,112 degrees Fahrenheit, storing energy for months.
(01:20):
When needed, air absorbs the sand's heat, producing steam for industrial use, or heating
water for district heating.
Although it currently doesn't directly produce electricity, future systems might use steam
turbines for this purpose.
Already operational since June, it has surpassed efficiency expectations, contributing to Pornäinen's
(01:41):
carbon neutrality goals and serving as a model for similar regions.
Natron, a sodium ion battery startup, has shut down after 12 years of trying to commercialize
its technology in the United States.
Despite having $25 million in orders, the company couldn't deliver due to pending UL certification,
(02:05):
leading to a cash crunch.
Investors were hesitant to provide more funds and efforts to sell the company failed.
Natron is now liquidating, keeping only a few employees for winding down operations.
The closure highlights the challenges of manufacturing batteries outside Asia, where established
supply chains and expertise dominate.
(02:27):
Other companies like Pauen and Northvolt have also faced similar fates.
The United States and Europe need sustained government support to compete with Asian battery
giants.
Product ventures with companies like Panasonic and LG Energy Solution may offer better prospects
for developing domestic battery manufacturing capabilities.
(02:49):
And now, pivot our discussion towards the main clean tech topic.
Welcome back to Innovation Pulse, I'm Dana Chen, and today I'm here with someone who
just made what I consider a completely baffling car purchase decision.
Yakov Lasker, innovation researcher, and apparently someone who throws caution to the
(03:12):
wind when it comes to major purchases.
Oh come on, Dana, you're being dramatic.
Though I have to admit, when I told my neighbor I bought a Chinese electric car, he looked
at me like I'd announced I was moving to Mars.
Okay, for our listeners who don't know Yakov's latest adventure, he just bought a BYD Ato
3.
And when I heard this, my first thought was, Yakov, what are you thinking?
(03:36):
I mean, we're talking about a Chinese car manufacturer that most people have never heard
of.
But here's the thing that blew my mind.
BYD sold 4.27 million vehicles last year.
That's not a typo.
They're literally the third largest automaker in the world now, ahead of Honda and Nissan.
Wait, hold up, third largest?
(03:57):
That can't be right.
I had the exact same reaction.
But when I started digging into this, I realized our perceptions are completely out of sync
with the reality.
It's like we're still thinking it's 2010.
Okay, so walk me through this decision, because honestly, when I think Chinese manufacturing,
I still think of those early iPhone knockoffs that would break if you looked at them wrong.
(04:19):
Right.
And that's exactly the mental trap I almost fell into.
So here's what happened.
I needed a family car, my budget was tight, and the Ato 3 was sitting there at $37,000
with more features than cars costing $15,000 more.
But surely the smart money says you pay extra for reliability, right?
(04:41):
I mean, there's a reason Toyota has that reputation.
That's what I thought too.
So I did what any paranoid researcher would do.
I spent weeks diving into reliability data, safety ratings, real owner experiences, and
Donna, what I found, completely changed my perspective.
All right, I'm listening.
(05:02):
But I have to say, my gut is still screaming red flags.
So let's start with safety, because that's non-negotiable for me.
The BYD seal, which is their flagship sedan, earned a five-star Euro-N-CAP rating.
That's the same testing that rates BMW and Mercedes.
Okay, that's actually impressive.
(05:22):
But what about long-term reliability?
Because passing crash tests is different from your car starting every morning for five years.
This is where it gets interesting.
I found this report from someone whose cousin imports used BYDs.
These cars had over 100,000 kilometers on them, and they were still running strong with
just minor, easily fixed issues.
(05:43):
But that's just one data point.
What about broader patterns?
Fair question.
Here's where the picture gets nuanced.
BYDs warranty claims rate did increase from .558% to 0.75% between 2022 and 2023.
So there are growing pains.
Uh-huh.
I knew it.
(06:04):
Growing pains usually means we're scaling faster than our quality control can handle.
Exactly, and you're not wrong.
I found reports of export quality issues.
Cars arriving in Europe with chipped paint, even some with mold.
That's genuinely concerning.
See, this is what I'm talking about.
When you're racing to dominate global markets, something has to give.
(06:25):
And it's usually quality.
But here's where it gets really interesting.
And this is what changed my mind.
These aren't fundamental engineering problems.
They're logistics and process issues that happen when you go from selling 700,000 cars
in 2021 to over 4 million in 2024.
(06:46):
Wait, that's like a six-fold increase in three years.
Insane growth, right?
But here's what struck me.
When I looked at the actual engineering, BYD has something most automakers don't.
They make their own batteries, their own motors, even their own semiconductors.
It's like Tesla's vertical integration on steroids.
(07:08):
Okay, but let's talk about the elephant in the room.
What about those driver assistance systems?
Because I read they got absolutely slammed by Euro NCAP.
Oh, the Atto3's driver assistance got a not recommended rating.
The worst they'd ever given.
The system basically abandoned you if you became unresponsive.
(07:28):
That's terrifying.
How is that not a deal-breaker?
Because I realized something important.
I'm not buying the car for its autopilot features.
I'm buying it for transportation.
And here's the kicker.
That not recommended rating was specifically for advanced driver assistance, not basic
safety.
Isn't that like saying, the airplane is fine except for the autopilot occasionally trying
(07:52):
to crash into mountains?
More like, the airplane flies perfectly but don't trust the fancy cruise control.
The fundamental vehicle.
The brakes.
The steering.
The crash protection.
All of that tested really well.
I'm starting to see your logic, but I still feel like you're taking a gamble on an unknown
quantity.
(08:13):
That's exactly what I thought until I realized BYD isn't unknown.
We just haven't been paying attention.
Warren Buffett invested in them back in 2008.
They've been the top-selling EV brand in China for 11 straight years.
Wait, Warren Buffett?
The guy who famously avoids tech stocks because he doesn't understand them?
(08:33):
The very same.
And here's what really opened my eyes.
In 2024, BYD's revenue actually surpassed Tesla's for the first time.
We're not talking about some scrappy startup anymore.
OK, but let's get real for a second.
Are we sure this isn't just Chinese government subsidies creating an artificial advantage?
(08:53):
That's a legitimate concern, but here's what's fascinating.
BYD is succeeding in markets without those subsidies too.
They just became the second largest EV brand in Australia, and their UK sales grew 658%
in 2024.
Those are impressive numbers, but I keep coming back to this gut feeling that we're missing
(09:14):
something.
If these cars are so great, why isn't everyone talking about them?
And that's exactly the point about perceptions versus reality.
We're still operating on mental models from 2015.
It's like when people said, you can't trust Japanese cars in the 1970s, even after Honda
and Toyota had already figured out quality.
(09:36):
That's actually a really good analogy.
I remember my dad telling stories about how American car dealers used to mock Japanese
tin cans.
Exactly.
And now look at Toyota's reputation.
But here's what's different about the BYD situation.
The transition is happening much faster because of how connected our world is now.
(09:56):
So you're saying we're witnessing the Toyota moment for Chinese automakers, but in real
time?
I think so.
And the weird part is, most of us are missing it because we're still thinking, made in
China equals cheap and unreliable.
But to be fair, that reputation wasn't built on nothing.
There were plenty of genuinely terrible Chinese products over the years.
(10:17):
Absolutely.
But that's what makes this so interesting from an innovation perspective.
BYD spent decades perfecting battery technology before they ever touched car manufacturing.
They weren't trying to reverse engineer German engineering.
They built expertise from the ground up.
Hmm, so it's not like they're cutting corners on fundamentals.
(10:38):
They're just new to the global automotive game.
That's my read.
The quality issues I found were mostly about shipping logistics and software polish, not
about whether the wheels fall off.
Okay, I have to ask.
Now that you've had the car for a bit, are you having buyers remorse?
Honestly?
The opposite.
Every time I get in it, I'm reminded that I got heated seats, a panoramic roof, and a
(11:03):
260 mile range for less than what a basic BMW would cost.
But what about the little things?
Because that's usually where you feel the quality differences.
The build quality actually feels really solid.
The interior materials are nicer than I expected.
My only real complaint is the infotainment system.
It's overly complicated, and sometimes I just want to change the radio without diving
(11:28):
through three menu levels.
See that's what I mean about software polish.
That kind of user experience design is where established companies still have an edge.
Totally agree.
But here's the thing.
Those are solvable problems.
Bad software can be updated.
Fundamental engineering problems, those take years to fix.
(11:49):
That's a fair point.
And I suppose if the car gets you from A to B reliably, you can live with some menu frustration.
Exactly.
And this connects to something bigger about how we evaluate innovation.
We often focus on the polished surface rather than the underlying capability.
What do you mean by that?
Well, think about how we judge tech companies.
(12:10):
We might dismiss a startup's app because the interface isn't as smooth as Apple's.
But miss that they've solved a fundamental technical problem that Apple hasn't even
attempted.
Oh, that's interesting.
So you're saying BYD might be further ahead on the hard problems, like battery technology
and manufacturing efficiency, even if they're behind on the user experience details?
(12:33):
Right.
And that's why I think our perceptions are so out of whack.
They're judging them on 2024 polish standards, but they're competing on 2030 fundamentals.
But doesn't polish matter?
I mean, if I'm spending $37,000 on something, I want it to feel premium.
It definitely matters.
But I think we overweight it.
(12:53):
Like my car has a 360 degree camera system that was cutting edge luxury tech just five
years ago.
But because the menu design isn't perfect, we focus on the interface instead of marveling
at the capability.
You know what?
That's a really good point about how we frame innovation.
We're often judging new entrants by yesterday's standards instead of asking where they might
(13:16):
be headed.
And here's what really gets me excited.
If BYD can deliver this much value while they're still figuring out global operations, imagine
what happens when they smooth out those rough edges.
That's either going to be amazing for consumers or terrifying for traditional automakers.
Probably both.
But as someone who just wants reliable, affordable transportation, I'm pretty happy to be riding
(13:41):
this wave early.
Alright, you've definitely given me some things to think about, though I still say
you're braver than I am.
Or maybe just more willing to let data override gut feelings.
Though ask me again in two years when the warranty might actually matter.
Ha!
We'll definitely have you back for a follow up episode.
For everyone listening, this has been a fascinating look at how quickly our perceptions can lag
(14:04):
behind reality in fast moving industries.
And remember, next time you hear made in China, maybe ask yourself, which China are you thinking
of?
The 2010 version or the 2024 version?
Great way to end it.
Thanks for sharing your BYD adventure with us, Yaakov, and thanks to everyone for listening
to Innovation Pulse.
(14:26):
Until next time, keep questioning your assumptions.
Because the future might already be here.
We're just not paying attention yet.
We've explored the innovative sand battery in Finland that's slashing emissions and
the rise of BYD as a leading automaker, showing how technological advances are reshaping industries
(14:49):
globally.
Don't forget to like, subscribe, and share this episode with your friends and colleagues,
so they can also stay updated on the latest news and gain powerful insights.
Stay tuned for more updates.
Welcome to Innovation Pulse, your quick no-nonsense update on the latest in clean tech and EVs.
(00:10):
First, we will cover the latest news.
In Finland, a new sand battery by Polar Night Energy cuts heating emissions by 70%, while
Natron's sodium ion battery startup closes due to commercialization challenges in the
US.
After this, we'll dive deep into the rise of BYD in the global EV market and its impact
(00:33):
on the automotive industry.
Stay tuned.
Join us as we discuss the innovative sand battery.
In the Finnish town of Pornäinen, an industrial-scale sand battery has been inaugurated, replacing
a wood chip power plant.
This innovative battery, developed by Polar Night Energy, aims to cut local heating network
(00:54):
carbon emissions by up to 70%.
Standing 42 feet tall and 50 feet wide, it stores up to 100 megawatt hours of energy
with a 90% efficiency.
This thermal energy storage system harnesses excess renewable electricity to heat sand
to 1,112 degrees Fahrenheit, storing energy for months.
(01:20):
When needed, air absorbs the sand's heat, producing steam for industrial use, or heating
water for district heating.
Although it currently doesn't directly produce electricity, future systems might use steam
turbines for this purpose.
Already operational since June, it has surpassed efficiency expectations, contributing to Pornäinen's
(01:41):
carbon neutrality goals and serving as a model for similar regions.
Natron, a sodium ion battery startup, has shut down after 12 years of trying to commercialize
its technology in the United States.
Despite having $25 million in orders, the company couldn't deliver due to pending UL certification,
(02:05):
leading to a cash crunch.
Investors were hesitant to provide more funds and efforts to sell the company failed.
Natron is now liquidating, keeping only a few employees for winding down operations.
The closure highlights the challenges of manufacturing batteries outside Asia, where established
supply chains and expertise dominate.
(02:27):
Other companies like Pauen and Northvolt have also faced similar fates.
The United States and Europe need sustained government support to compete with Asian battery
giants.
Product ventures with companies like Panasonic and LG Energy Solution may offer better prospects
for developing domestic battery manufacturing capabilities.
(02:49):
And now, pivot our discussion towards the main clean tech topic.
Welcome back to Innovation Pulse, I'm Dana Chen, and today I'm here with someone who
just made what I consider a completely baffling car purchase decision.
Yakov Lasker, innovation researcher, and apparently someone who throws caution to the
(03:12):
wind when it comes to major purchases.
Oh come on, Dana, you're being dramatic.
Though I have to admit, when I told my neighbor I bought a Chinese electric car, he looked
at me like I'd announced I was moving to Mars.
Okay, for our listeners who don't know Yakov's latest adventure, he just bought a BYD Ato
3.
And when I heard this, my first thought was, Yakov, what are you thinking?
(03:36):
I mean, we're talking about a Chinese car manufacturer that most people have never heard
of.
But here's the thing that blew my mind.
BYD sold 4.27 million vehicles last year.
That's not a typo.
They're literally the third largest automaker in the world now, ahead of Honda and Nissan.
Wait, hold up, third largest?
(03:57):
That can't be right.
I had the exact same reaction.
But when I started digging into this, I realized our perceptions are completely out of sync
with the reality.
It's like we're still thinking it's 2010.
Okay, so walk me through this decision, because honestly, when I think Chinese manufacturing,
I still think of those early iPhone knockoffs that would break if you looked at them wrong.
(04:19):
Right.
And that's exactly the mental trap I almost fell into.
So here's what happened.
I needed a family car, my budget was tight, and the Ato 3 was sitting there at $37,000
with more features than cars costing $15,000 more.
But surely the smart money says you pay extra for reliability, right?
(04:41):
I mean, there's a reason Toyota has that reputation.
That's what I thought too.
So I did what any paranoid researcher would do.
I spent weeks diving into reliability data, safety ratings, real owner experiences, and
Donna, what I found, completely changed my perspective.
All right, I'm listening.
(05:02):
But I have to say, my gut is still screaming red flags.
So let's start with safety, because that's non-negotiable for me.
The BYD seal, which is their flagship sedan, earned a five-star Euro-N-CAP rating.
That's the same testing that rates BMW and Mercedes.
Okay, that's actually impressive.
(05:22):
But what about long-term reliability?
Because passing crash tests is different from your car starting every morning for five years.
This is where it gets interesting.
I found this report from someone whose cousin imports used BYDs.
These cars had over 100,000 kilometers on them, and they were still running strong with
just minor, easily fixed issues.
(05:43):
But that's just one data point.
What about broader patterns?
Fair question.
Here's where the picture gets nuanced.
BYDs warranty claims rate did increase from .558% to 0.75% between 2022 and 2023.
So there are growing pains.
Uh-huh.
I knew it.
(06:04):
Growing pains usually means we're scaling faster than our quality control can handle.
Exactly, and you're not wrong.
I found reports of export quality issues.
Cars arriving in Europe with chipped paint, even some with mold.
That's genuinely concerning.
See, this is what I'm talking about.
When you're racing to dominate global markets, something has to give.
(06:25):
And it's usually quality.
But here's where it gets really interesting.
And this is what changed my mind.
These aren't fundamental engineering problems.
They're logistics and process issues that happen when you go from selling 700,000 cars
in 2021 to over 4 million in 2024.
(06:46):
Wait, that's like a six-fold increase in three years.
Insane growth, right?
But here's what struck me.
When I looked at the actual engineering, BYD has something most automakers don't.
They make their own batteries, their own motors, even their own semiconductors.
It's like Tesla's vertical integration on steroids.
(07:08):
Okay, but let's talk about the elephant in the room.
What about those driver assistance systems?
Because I read they got absolutely slammed by Euro NCAP.
Oh, the Atto3's driver assistance got a not recommended rating.
The worst they'd ever given.
The system basically abandoned you if you became unresponsive.
(07:28):
That's terrifying.
How is that not a deal-breaker?
Because I realized something important.
I'm not buying the car for its autopilot features.
I'm buying it for transportation.
And here's the kicker.
That not recommended rating was specifically for advanced driver assistance, not basic
safety.
Isn't that like saying, the airplane is fine except for the autopilot occasionally trying
(07:52):
to crash into mountains?
More like, the airplane flies perfectly but don't trust the fancy cruise control.
The fundamental vehicle.
The brakes.
The steering.
The crash protection.
All of that tested really well.
I'm starting to see your logic, but I still feel like you're taking a gamble on an unknown
quantity.
(08:13):
That's exactly what I thought until I realized BYD isn't unknown.
We just haven't been paying attention.
Warren Buffett invested in them back in 2008.
They've been the top-selling EV brand in China for 11 straight years.
Wait, Warren Buffett?
The guy who famously avoids tech stocks because he doesn't understand them?
(08:33):
The very same.
And here's what really opened my eyes.
In 2024, BYD's revenue actually surpassed Tesla's for the first time.
We're not talking about some scrappy startup anymore.
OK, but let's get real for a second.
Are we sure this isn't just Chinese government subsidies creating an artificial advantage?
(08:53):
That's a legitimate concern, but here's what's fascinating.
BYD is succeeding in markets without those subsidies too.
They just became the second largest EV brand in Australia, and their UK sales grew 658%
in 2024.
Those are impressive numbers, but I keep coming back to this gut feeling that we're missing
(09:14):
something.
If these cars are so great, why isn't everyone talking about them?
And that's exactly the point about perceptions versus reality.
We're still operating on mental models from 2015.
It's like when people said, you can't trust Japanese cars in the 1970s, even after Honda
and Toyota had already figured out quality.
(09:36):
That's actually a really good analogy.
I remember my dad telling stories about how American car dealers used to mock Japanese
tin cans.
Exactly.
And now look at Toyota's reputation.
But here's what's different about the BYD situation.
The transition is happening much faster because of how connected our world is now.
(09:56):
So you're saying we're witnessing the Toyota moment for Chinese automakers, but in real
time?
I think so.
And the weird part is, most of us are missing it because we're still thinking, made in
China equals cheap and unreliable.
But to be fair, that reputation wasn't built on nothing.
There were plenty of genuinely terrible Chinese products over the years.
(10:17):
Absolutely.
But that's what makes this so interesting from an innovation perspective.
BYD spent decades perfecting battery technology before they ever touched car manufacturing.
They weren't trying to reverse engineer German engineering.
They built expertise from the ground up.
Hmm, so it's not like they're cutting corners on fundamentals.
(10:38):
They're just new to the global automotive game.
That's my read.
The quality issues I found were mostly about shipping logistics and software polish, not
about whether the wheels fall off.
Okay, I have to ask.
Now that you've had the car for a bit, are you having buyers remorse?
Honestly?
The opposite.
Every time I get in it, I'm reminded that I got heated seats, a panoramic roof, and a
(11:03):
260 mile range for less than what a basic BMW would cost.
But what about the little things?
Because that's usually where you feel the quality differences.
The build quality actually feels really solid.
The interior materials are nicer than I expected.
My only real complaint is the infotainment system.
It's overly complicated, and sometimes I just want to change the radio without diving
(11:28):
through three menu levels.
See that's what I mean about software polish.
That kind of user experience design is where established companies still have an edge.
Totally agree.
But here's the thing.
Those are solvable problems.
Bad software can be updated.
Fundamental engineering problems, those take years to fix.
(11:49):
That's a fair point.
And I suppose if the car gets you from A to B reliably, you can live with some menu frustration.
Exactly.
And this connects to something bigger about how we evaluate innovation.
We often focus on the polished surface rather than the underlying capability.
What do you mean by that?
Well, think about how we judge tech companies.
(12:10):
We might dismiss a startup's app because the interface isn't as smooth as Apple's.
But miss that they've solved a fundamental technical problem that Apple hasn't even
attempted.
Oh, that's interesting.
So you're saying BYD might be further ahead on the hard problems, like battery technology
and manufacturing efficiency, even if they're behind on the user experience details?
(12:33):
Right.
And that's why I think our perceptions are so out of whack.
They're judging them on 2024 polish standards, but they're competing on 2030 fundamentals.
But doesn't polish matter?
I mean, if I'm spending $37,000 on something, I want it to feel premium.
It definitely matters.
But I think we overweight it.
(12:53):
Like my car has a 360 degree camera system that was cutting edge luxury tech just five
years ago.
But because the menu design isn't perfect, we focus on the interface instead of marveling
at the capability.
You know what?
That's a really good point about how we frame innovation.
We're often judging new entrants by yesterday's standards instead of asking where they might
(13:16):
be headed.
And here's what really gets me excited.
If BYD can deliver this much value while they're still figuring out global operations, imagine
what happens when they smooth out those rough edges.
That's either going to be amazing for consumers or terrifying for traditional automakers.
Probably both.
But as someone who just wants reliable, affordable transportation, I'm pretty happy to be riding
(13:41):
this wave early.
Alright, you've definitely given me some things to think about, though I still say
you're braver than I am.
Or maybe just more willing to let data override gut feelings.
Though ask me again in two years when the warranty might actually matter.
Ha!
We'll definitely have you back for a follow up episode.
For everyone listening, this has been a fascinating look at how quickly our perceptions can lag
(14:04):
behind reality in fast moving industries.
And remember, next time you hear made in China, maybe ask yourself, which China are you thinking
of?
The 2010 version or the 2024 version?
Great way to end it.
Thanks for sharing your BYD adventure with us, Yaakov, and thanks to everyone for listening
to Innovation Pulse.
(14:26):
Until next time, keep questioning your assumptions.
Because the future might already be here.
We're just not paying attention yet.
We've explored the innovative sand battery in Finland that's slashing emissions and
the rise of BYD as a leading automaker, showing how technological advances are reshaping industries
(14:49):
globally.
Don't forget to like, subscribe, and share this episode with your friends and colleagues,
so they can also stay updated on the latest news and gain powerful insights.
Stay tuned for more updates.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show. Clay Travis and Buck Sexton tackle the biggest stories in news, politics and current events with intelligence and humor. From the border crisis, to the madness of cancel culture and far-left missteps, Clay and Buck guide listeners through the latest headlines and hot topics with fun and entertaining conversations and opinions.