March 2, 2024 • 26 mins
Description
Welcome to an enlightening episode of the Inscape Quest podcast where we delve into the complexities of human connection and relationships. Our esteemed guest this episode is Bob Lecy, a Vietnam War veteran with insightful perspectives on the phrase "Thank You for Your Service." Explore this phrase's profound impact on veterans, as seen from an insider's perspective, and indulge in a powerful conversation about war, betrayal, and healing.
Bob is a U.S. Army veteran who served with the 4th Infantry Division during the Vietnam War. In this compelling episode, he critically examines the implications of the phrase "Thank You for Your Service" - a phrase that often carries complex emotions for those who've experienced the harsh realities of war. The episode reveals the untold sufferings and moral conflicts that veterans encounter, posing uncomfortable yet essential questions about the realities underlying the façade of military glory.
The conversation moves towards a more profound level of understanding, shedding light on the necessity of listening to veterans' stories and engaging in empathetic dialogues. Bob underscores a significant call to rethink civilian interactions with veterans, advocating for a more thoughtful and empathetic approach that acknowledges the real trauma they've experienced. In this stimulating episode, learn what to say, how to say it, and to whom - for your words can have a far-reaching impact.
The conversation takes a grim turn as it highlights the often unnoticed incidents of sexual harassment and assault within the military. Bob's firsthand accounts bring attention to the pressing issue, focusing on the harsh reality that remains largely unaddressed within the military's own ranks.
The poignant episode concludes with Bob's inspiring story - a powerful call-to-action for communities to step up, support, and truly welcome veterans home. Engage, be informed, and be a part of the conversation. Tune into this insightful episode of the Inscape Quest podcast and understand the veterans' world in all its complex, riveting, and humanizing detail.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello podcast listeners. Thank you for tuning in today to the InScape Quest podcast show.
I am your host, Trudy Howley. Here I am talking with people about how they engage
with their relationships, work and passions.
Please subscribe and share the show with a friend.
(00:21):
And thanks to you, we can grow meaningful conversations together, one episode at a time.
Music.
In this episode i have the privilege of discussing some of the impacts of the
words thank you for your service with vietnam veteran bob lisi,
(00:49):
well welcome bob lisi today very happy to be having this conversation with you
and i'm I'm sure it'll be one of many.
Just to introduce you to our listeners today, you were a medic with the U.S.
Army and a veteran of the Vietnam War, and you served with the 4th Infantry Division.
(01:12):
And I'm happy to be enjoying a conversation with you today on the topic of the
impact of words on veterans.
So welcome.
Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.
Let's get started because I know there's lots of different ways of viewing interactions
(01:37):
with veterans, especially with people who may be strangers,
people that you don't know.
And there is this common phrase of thank you for your service.
I'm curious when I say
those words what generally does
the impact of those words have on somebody like
(02:00):
yourself well that can range from not
caring to ambivalence being offended for me the immediate question that goes
to my mind is what is it you're thanking me for And my experience has been that most people,
(02:21):
civilians specifically, those who have not served, have no clue really what
it is they're thanking us for.
It's just a phrase,
that they have grown to be comfortable with because they probably don't know
what else to say or don't know how to engage a veteran in talking about their
(02:43):
experience and a lot of people.
Are remembering back to the treatment that veterans got in coming back from the Vietnam War,
and don't want to repeat that but the other side of that is by saying thank
you for your service For many of us, it's sort of a meaningless phrase.
(03:04):
It really accomplishes the same thing, and that's disingenuous response to us
really not understanding what it is we've done in serving our country,
the depths of our service to the country, and what those of us who survived the war physically,
(03:29):
what we go through for the rest of our lives in trying to come home.
In trying to heal from the experience of what we went through.
Just saying, feeling that great divide of that phrase of thank you for your service.
It's a hello and a goodbye, and it's not a very meaningful experience.
(03:53):
I'm wondering if you would help us understand better,
specifically, what that experience of coming home, and thank you for your service,
how that impacts you as a Vietnam vet,
as opposed to somebody else who might have served in Iraq or Afghanistan.
(04:17):
What's specific to you and the coming home experience? experience?
Well, I would suggest it's not really much different.
Just the act, in my opinion, just the act of sending us to war.
Is in itself a moral betrayal. And I say it's a moral betrayal because politicians, leaders,
(04:40):
military or government, cultural, civic leaders or political leaders, those in places of.
Influencing the culture, they never tell you the real reasons that you're going to war.
It doesn't matter whether you're in a democracy or an authoritarian regime.
(05:01):
Presidents, government leaders, they lie to you. They lie to you while you're going to war.
And you don't know until you're involved and it's too late that the reason for
your being there is a false reason.
And it has very little to do
with the national security and i
(05:24):
will say that in my lifetime there has not been there has not been a conflict
in which this country has been involved that has been an existential threat
where this country's existence is and was in peril They were wars of choice,
and that especially was true of Vietnam,
(05:45):
that it was based on the lies
of a president and inaccuracies of understanding what was happening and lying
to us as to why we were there after making promises that he would never send
American boys to do what Asian boys ought to be doing for themselves.
(06:07):
Sell and within months of being reelected or being elected for the first time was planning.
To send American troops to Southeast Asia to do exactly what he said he would.
And I find similarities between that experience of Vietnam and what happened
(06:28):
in Afghanistan, and especially what happened in Iraq.
Has your opinion changed over time?
Have you always felt this way, or has this been part of your healing journey?
I would say my opinion has changed over time,
becoming more solidified in my understanding of what happened in Vietnam and
(06:53):
what happens when we do go to war in this country, and the political reality
in sending us in harm's way.
The people who send us there, they're not the ones who put their ass on the line for the country.
And that's one of the more difficult pieces of someone who says,
thank you for your service, and wondering, what is it that you're thanking me for?
(07:16):
The purpose, the ultimate purpose of the military is to kill and destroy.
And that's what we're taught. Here I am, an 18-year-old, recent high school graduate.
And within two months of having been graduated from high school.
I'm being taught how to kill.
(07:38):
I'm being taught how to take human life.
I'm being told it's justified because one man.
The President of the United States says it's justified.
And the truth is, it's not. It is not justified. It is state-sanctioned murder.
There is a price to pay for that. And those of us who are sent in harm's way
(08:01):
to do that destruction, we pay the price the rest of our lives.
Some pay the price because they don't come back. Paying that ultimate price
with your life and also family relationships as well, a whole group of people affected.
(08:23):
Do you think that the general public wants to understand what military life is like?
Do you expect them to understand what military life is like?
No, I don't expect them to. You cannot really comprehend war and the impact
(08:44):
if you have not experienced it.
On the other hand, if you're not willing to sit down and talk to those who have
experienced it, how else are you going to know it?
How else are you going to learn it? if you're not going to listen to us,
if you're not going to give us the opportunity to tell our stories.
(09:05):
And we desperately, maybe that's too strong a term, but I don't think so.
We desperately need to tell our stories as part of that healing process,
as part of the process of coming home.
This country does not provide the place that we can can tell our stories,
(09:27):
speak the unspoken and speak the unspeakable, and war is the unspeakable.
Thank you for beginning to tell your story here today.
In order to support the general public not being so disingenuous,
being willing to hear your stories, and I do believe there are people people
(09:49):
out there who do want to connect,
is there a way of suggesting they can word themselves a little differently to
initiate a conversation?
If there's a desire on their part to engage a veteran, my suggestion would be
first to learn as much as they can.
(10:12):
I'm not suggesting a deep deep study, but to learn about the conflict.
Also a willingness to understand what their part, and by their I mean the civilians
part, is in our going to war.
The elect the leaders that make the decisions.
(10:32):
The politicians establish the public policy, the foreign policy that results in sending us there.
They pay the taxes that buys the bullets, pays for those airplanes and the bombs
and our training that teaches us to be destructive,
(10:52):
to be the people who go out and pull the trigger.
And even if we don't pull the trigger, we are the support people who make it
possible for those who do pull the trigger.
We're all involved in the process of killing and destroying when it comes to war.
But my biggest caution to civilians is, if you're going to engage a veteran
(11:19):
in talking about the war,
make sure that you engage them and look at them and that you don't turn away and judge them.
The worst thing you can do is to make a judgment about the story you're hearing,
(11:41):
because the story you're hearing, which may be uncomfortable, that's what war is.
And that's what you sent us to. And that's what we have to live with.
And that's what we have to make sense of the rest of our lives.
I'm hearing you say that it would be
really important if civilians intentionally elevate their conscious awareness
(12:07):
of their role in supporting policy and supporting military actions,
and also to be willing to engage in the uncomfortable consequences.
Yes.
A friend of mine, a veteran, he has a saying, which I totally agree with.
(12:32):
And when he talks with civilians about war and the war experience, his comment is,
if you're not willing to accept your responsibility as a citizen of this country for sending us to war,
(12:53):
then we really don't have anything to talk about.
If you're on that other side of this question, civilian and.
Warrior, if you have not been to war, if you're not open to understanding your part in or having been,
sent and trained and the consequences to us as individuals as well as the society,
(13:20):
then I agree with you. We don't have much to talk about,
So if a civilian is disingenuously saying thank you for your service and not
willing to have a conversation, are you rather they just didn't say anything at all?
Yes. Thank you for being clear about that.
(13:42):
And I'm also curious, as you go about your day doing routine things that all
of us do, what happens to you if somebody says thank you for your service?
Does it bring you back into re-traumatization?
What happens in those moments? Well, my head wants to challenge them with what are you thanking me for?
(14:09):
Challenging them and creating more conflict
is not the solution either so i try
to look at the individual like as basically
they just don't understand what they're doing they mean well most of them and
i believe that that they mean well so i participate in a in a group a project
(14:35):
called the Warrior Story Field,
where hopefully, eventually.
It will have a larger impact on society in general and giving the opportunity
for civilians and the lawyers to tell their stories.
Because we need to hear the civilian story, too.
(14:56):
They need to hear their side of what it's like for them to have to interact with veterans.
And especially from the viewpoint of the spouses and the children of the veterans
and the fathers and mothers and the brothers and the sisters,
we're all impacted by that experience of war.
(15:18):
And I'm still hearing, when I talk to college classes, which I do,
high school classes, I still hear from some of the students about an uncle or a grandfather.
Who they know was in the Vietnam War, but they don't know what happened to them.
(15:40):
They just know that they don't talk about it.
They're silent. And when they hear my story and the story of my fellow soldiers.
They always, I won't say always, but mostly they'll say, now I understand.
Now I understand why he didn't talk. I understand why we didn't talk.
(16:04):
I understand the silence and their hope is that maybe the next time they see
that person, if they're still alive, that they'll be able to have a conversation with them.
And I'm also thinking as you're sharing this part that there are statistics
about women in the military having high rates of assault, that they've experienced that.
(16:28):
So even somebody of a different gender is being thanked for their service,
that also might re-traumatize them from other aspects of trauma,
not just serving, but from experiences within the military as well.
So there seems to be multiple layers here.
(16:52):
There is. And it makes me sad, very sad that that's the case.
Of course, in Vietnam, the female soldiers were primarily nurses,
mostly located away from the primary combat areas.
(17:12):
That's not entirely true. There was sexual harassment going on,
and I don't doubt that there was.
It was something, at least in the Vietnam experience, that I wasn't aware of.
When I first learned of what was happening to the women in the military by our
own people was in the early years of the Iraq War,
(17:35):
about the second or third year of the war.
I attended a lecture given by two veterans of the Iraq War, a male and a female,
and she made the statement that 30%, somewhere around 30% of the women were
sexually harassed or assaulted by our own troops.
And I was horrified by that.
(17:57):
I was even more horrified by that 10 years later, that that was still true, that that had changed.
The percentage was still around 30%. And the military was being chastised at
the time by the Congress for not having addressed the issue,
and they promised that they were going to address the issue.
And they haven't. That is still going on.
(18:20):
I mean, I just find that so incredulous. I'm told that sexual abuse amongst
men in the military during Iraq War and Afghanistan, mostly in Iraq.
Was percentage was pretty high too. And again, it's very shocking that we are
doing this to our own people.
(18:41):
That's a very dark place to go.
With it being a dark place and also an important place to name.
So thank you for expanding on that. Going back to being trained to put your
ass on the line and show up and people thanking you for your service.
(19:03):
Would you rather they say, thank you for your sacrifice or just thank?
Is that sort of a little more tolerable in any way?
Saying thank you for your sacrifices, I find it more tolerable.
At least it gives some thoughtfulness, at least some indication of some thoughtfulness
(19:24):
that there's something more to the service besides just having put in time.
That they have experienced something that maybe was more horrendous than what
the individual is giving them credit for.
But recognizing that there is something that they've gone through,
an experience that most people will never go through, I think is very important.
(19:49):
One of the things that Vietnam vets do to each other or for each other is still,
at this point, it's been five decades.
And to still say, welcome home, brother.
When I came home and got off that plane at McCourt Air Force Base,
there was no band, there was no welcoming committee, there was no well done, there was just silence.
(20:15):
In fact, it was four decades later that it was three horses that welcomed me
home. That's a story in itself.
Yeah, and I hope to have a conversation with you about that story in a future
conversation, because we do have, both of us have that deep connection with horses.
I do appreciate the understanding and connection with other sentient beings other than people,
(20:43):
and how we can find great healing and comfort and relationship with animals.
Look forward to that conversation with
you is there a specific example you
might give about a particular
instant incidence of somebody saying thank you for your service there is one
(21:08):
that continues to stand out in my mind it wasn't too long ago a couple years
maybe by now i guess to preface it my my vehicle has a license plate on it that
says disabled veteran and
It's not that I want people to know that I'm a disabled veteran.
It's that in having a disability.
(21:29):
That it entitles me to a tax break each year that I don't have to pay for the
relicensing of my vehicle, which is a significant amount of money.
But in exchange of that, I have to have this license plate that says disabled veteran.
It would be much preferable that the plate didn't say that, maybe just veteran.
(21:50):
I was getting some gas. I heard this voice, rather gruff voice.
The man said, are you the veteran driving this vehicle?
I tried to ignore it. After a few seconds, why that voice again?
Are you the disabled veteran who's driving this vehicle?
And I realized I'm not going to get away without recognizing or acknowledging this guy.
(22:15):
And I said, yes, I'm the driver.
He said, thank you for your service. And then was gone.
And before I could say anything or do anything or react to it.
It just was such a dissatisfying encounter with this gentleman, whoever he was.
(22:37):
I'm sure he felt he was doing his patriotic duty, perhaps.
It was the whole conversation. That was it. It was hello, goodbye.
He doesn't know me any better. I don't know him any better.
You know, it was just a totally unsatisfactory experience, in my opinion, for either of us.
(23:00):
I don't see that anything was gained by it.
But that is the acceptable greeting between civilians and veterans.
Thank you for sharing that story and for sharing your experience of that,
(23:21):
which I imagine has happened more than once as well and has happened to others,
helping civilians be a little more aware of their interactions and how that
may be well-intentioned,
But the actual delivery and experience could be way more satisfying if those
(23:44):
of us who want to appreciate your sacrifices are willing to engage in conversation
or perhaps just give you a nod or say thanks,
go about the business of the day, unless there is time to exchange a few more
sentences or minutes together.
(24:05):
As a veteran and one who has experienced the suffering side of war in a way that most veterans.
Veterans even have not experienced, because I was a medic and I saw that suffering in a more intense level.
I hope that this country can learn a better way of dealing with conflict and
(24:29):
a better way of helping the soldiers when they come home to return in a loving way.
We don't treat veterans well. Well, we expect the Veterans Administration to do the work for us.
And I have to tell you, the Veterans Administration, no matter how well they
(24:51):
intend to work with veterans, are not capable of doing for us what needs to be done.
The communities must step in and give us their time and their efforts and listen
to our stories to help us to come home.
(25:14):
Thank you so much, Bob, for sharing your time today and also sharing some of your experiences.
I look forward to having more conversations and bringing those to wider communities.
Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you for having me.
(25:36):
Thank you for listening to this InScape Quest podcast with me, Trudy Howley.
If you like this show, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Podbean and leave a comment.
You can also find me on Instagram at InScape Quest.
Thank you for listening and for your shares. Cheerio for now.
(25:57):
Music.
Hello podcast listeners. Thank you for tuning in today to the InScape Quest podcast show.
I am your host, Trudy Howley. Here I am talking with people about how they engage
with their relationships, work and passions.
Please subscribe and share the show with a friend.
(00:21):
And thanks to you, we can grow meaningful conversations together, one episode at a time.
Music.
In this episode i have the privilege of discussing some of the impacts of the
words thank you for your service with vietnam veteran bob lisi,
(00:49):
well welcome bob lisi today very happy to be having this conversation with you
and i'm I'm sure it'll be one of many.
Just to introduce you to our listeners today, you were a medic with the U.S.
Army and a veteran of the Vietnam War, and you served with the 4th Infantry Division.
(01:12):
And I'm happy to be enjoying a conversation with you today on the topic of the
impact of words on veterans.
So welcome.
Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.
Let's get started because I know there's lots of different ways of viewing interactions
(01:37):
with veterans, especially with people who may be strangers,
people that you don't know.
And there is this common phrase of thank you for your service.
I'm curious when I say
those words what generally does
the impact of those words have on somebody like
(02:00):
yourself well that can range from not
caring to ambivalence being offended for me the immediate question that goes
to my mind is what is it you're thanking me for And my experience has been that most people,
(02:21):
civilians specifically, those who have not served, have no clue really what
it is they're thanking us for.
It's just a phrase,
that they have grown to be comfortable with because they probably don't know
what else to say or don't know how to engage a veteran in talking about their
(02:43):
experience and a lot of people.
Are remembering back to the treatment that veterans got in coming back from the Vietnam War,
and don't want to repeat that but the other side of that is by saying thank
you for your service For many of us, it's sort of a meaningless phrase.
(03:04):
It really accomplishes the same thing, and that's disingenuous response to us
really not understanding what it is we've done in serving our country,
the depths of our service to the country, and what those of us who survived the war physically,
(03:29):
what we go through for the rest of our lives in trying to come home.
In trying to heal from the experience of what we went through.
Just saying, feeling that great divide of that phrase of thank you for your service.
It's a hello and a goodbye, and it's not a very meaningful experience.
(03:53):
I'm wondering if you would help us understand better,
specifically, what that experience of coming home, and thank you for your service,
how that impacts you as a Vietnam vet,
as opposed to somebody else who might have served in Iraq or Afghanistan.
(04:17):
What's specific to you and the coming home experience? experience?
Well, I would suggest it's not really much different.
Just the act, in my opinion, just the act of sending us to war.
Is in itself a moral betrayal. And I say it's a moral betrayal because politicians, leaders,
(04:40):
military or government, cultural, civic leaders or political leaders, those in places of.
Influencing the culture, they never tell you the real reasons that you're going to war.
It doesn't matter whether you're in a democracy or an authoritarian regime.
(05:01):
Presidents, government leaders, they lie to you. They lie to you while you're going to war.
And you don't know until you're involved and it's too late that the reason for
your being there is a false reason.
And it has very little to do
with the national security and i
(05:24):
will say that in my lifetime there has not been there has not been a conflict
in which this country has been involved that has been an existential threat
where this country's existence is and was in peril They were wars of choice,
and that especially was true of Vietnam,
(05:45):
that it was based on the lies
of a president and inaccuracies of understanding what was happening and lying
to us as to why we were there after making promises that he would never send
American boys to do what Asian boys ought to be doing for themselves.
(06:07):
Sell and within months of being reelected or being elected for the first time was planning.
To send American troops to Southeast Asia to do exactly what he said he would.
And I find similarities between that experience of Vietnam and what happened
(06:28):
in Afghanistan, and especially what happened in Iraq.
Has your opinion changed over time?
Have you always felt this way, or has this been part of your healing journey?
I would say my opinion has changed over time,
becoming more solidified in my understanding of what happened in Vietnam and
(06:53):
what happens when we do go to war in this country, and the political reality
in sending us in harm's way.
The people who send us there, they're not the ones who put their ass on the line for the country.
And that's one of the more difficult pieces of someone who says,
thank you for your service, and wondering, what is it that you're thanking me for?
(07:16):
The purpose, the ultimate purpose of the military is to kill and destroy.
And that's what we're taught. Here I am, an 18-year-old, recent high school graduate.
And within two months of having been graduated from high school.
I'm being taught how to kill.
(07:38):
I'm being taught how to take human life.
I'm being told it's justified because one man.
The President of the United States says it's justified.
And the truth is, it's not. It is not justified. It is state-sanctioned murder.
There is a price to pay for that. And those of us who are sent in harm's way
(08:01):
to do that destruction, we pay the price the rest of our lives.
Some pay the price because they don't come back. Paying that ultimate price
with your life and also family relationships as well, a whole group of people affected.
(08:23):
Do you think that the general public wants to understand what military life is like?
Do you expect them to understand what military life is like?
No, I don't expect them to. You cannot really comprehend war and the impact
(08:44):
if you have not experienced it.
On the other hand, if you're not willing to sit down and talk to those who have
experienced it, how else are you going to know it?
How else are you going to learn it? if you're not going to listen to us,
if you're not going to give us the opportunity to tell our stories.
(09:05):
And we desperately, maybe that's too strong a term, but I don't think so.
We desperately need to tell our stories as part of that healing process,
as part of the process of coming home.
This country does not provide the place that we can can tell our stories,
(09:27):
speak the unspoken and speak the unspeakable, and war is the unspeakable.
Thank you for beginning to tell your story here today.
In order to support the general public not being so disingenuous,
being willing to hear your stories, and I do believe there are people people
(09:49):
out there who do want to connect,
is there a way of suggesting they can word themselves a little differently to
initiate a conversation?
If there's a desire on their part to engage a veteran, my suggestion would be
first to learn as much as they can.
(10:12):
I'm not suggesting a deep deep study, but to learn about the conflict.
Also a willingness to understand what their part, and by their I mean the civilians
part, is in our going to war.
The elect the leaders that make the decisions.
(10:32):
The politicians establish the public policy, the foreign policy that results in sending us there.
They pay the taxes that buys the bullets, pays for those airplanes and the bombs
and our training that teaches us to be destructive,
(10:52):
to be the people who go out and pull the trigger.
And even if we don't pull the trigger, we are the support people who make it
possible for those who do pull the trigger.
We're all involved in the process of killing and destroying when it comes to war.
But my biggest caution to civilians is, if you're going to engage a veteran
(11:19):
in talking about the war,
make sure that you engage them and look at them and that you don't turn away and judge them.
The worst thing you can do is to make a judgment about the story you're hearing,
(11:41):
because the story you're hearing, which may be uncomfortable, that's what war is.
And that's what you sent us to. And that's what we have to live with.
And that's what we have to make sense of the rest of our lives.
I'm hearing you say that it would be
really important if civilians intentionally elevate their conscious awareness
(12:07):
of their role in supporting policy and supporting military actions,
and also to be willing to engage in the uncomfortable consequences.
Yes.
A friend of mine, a veteran, he has a saying, which I totally agree with.
(12:32):
And when he talks with civilians about war and the war experience, his comment is,
if you're not willing to accept your responsibility as a citizen of this country for sending us to war,
(12:53):
then we really don't have anything to talk about.
If you're on that other side of this question, civilian and.
Warrior, if you have not been to war, if you're not open to understanding your part in or having been,
sent and trained and the consequences to us as individuals as well as the society,
(13:20):
then I agree with you. We don't have much to talk about,
So if a civilian is disingenuously saying thank you for your service and not
willing to have a conversation, are you rather they just didn't say anything at all?
Yes. Thank you for being clear about that.
(13:42):
And I'm also curious, as you go about your day doing routine things that all
of us do, what happens to you if somebody says thank you for your service?
Does it bring you back into re-traumatization?
What happens in those moments? Well, my head wants to challenge them with what are you thanking me for?
(14:09):
Challenging them and creating more conflict
is not the solution either so i try
to look at the individual like as basically
they just don't understand what they're doing they mean well most of them and
i believe that that they mean well so i participate in a in a group a project
(14:35):
called the Warrior Story Field,
where hopefully, eventually.
It will have a larger impact on society in general and giving the opportunity
for civilians and the lawyers to tell their stories.
Because we need to hear the civilian story, too.
(14:56):
They need to hear their side of what it's like for them to have to interact with veterans.
And especially from the viewpoint of the spouses and the children of the veterans
and the fathers and mothers and the brothers and the sisters,
we're all impacted by that experience of war.
(15:18):
And I'm still hearing, when I talk to college classes, which I do,
high school classes, I still hear from some of the students about an uncle or a grandfather.
Who they know was in the Vietnam War, but they don't know what happened to them.
(15:40):
They just know that they don't talk about it.
They're silent. And when they hear my story and the story of my fellow soldiers.
They always, I won't say always, but mostly they'll say, now I understand.
Now I understand why he didn't talk. I understand why we didn't talk.
(16:04):
I understand the silence and their hope is that maybe the next time they see
that person, if they're still alive, that they'll be able to have a conversation with them.
And I'm also thinking as you're sharing this part that there are statistics
about women in the military having high rates of assault, that they've experienced that.
(16:28):
So even somebody of a different gender is being thanked for their service,
that also might re-traumatize them from other aspects of trauma,
not just serving, but from experiences within the military as well.
So there seems to be multiple layers here.
(16:52):
There is. And it makes me sad, very sad that that's the case.
Of course, in Vietnam, the female soldiers were primarily nurses,
mostly located away from the primary combat areas.
(17:12):
That's not entirely true. There was sexual harassment going on,
and I don't doubt that there was.
It was something, at least in the Vietnam experience, that I wasn't aware of.
When I first learned of what was happening to the women in the military by our
own people was in the early years of the Iraq War,
(17:35):
about the second or third year of the war.
I attended a lecture given by two veterans of the Iraq War, a male and a female,
and she made the statement that 30%, somewhere around 30% of the women were
sexually harassed or assaulted by our own troops.
And I was horrified by that.
(17:57):
I was even more horrified by that 10 years later, that that was still true, that that had changed.
The percentage was still around 30%. And the military was being chastised at
the time by the Congress for not having addressed the issue,
and they promised that they were going to address the issue.
And they haven't. That is still going on.
(18:20):
I mean, I just find that so incredulous. I'm told that sexual abuse amongst
men in the military during Iraq War and Afghanistan, mostly in Iraq.
Was percentage was pretty high too. And again, it's very shocking that we are
doing this to our own people.
(18:41):
That's a very dark place to go.
With it being a dark place and also an important place to name.
So thank you for expanding on that. Going back to being trained to put your
ass on the line and show up and people thanking you for your service.
(19:03):
Would you rather they say, thank you for your sacrifice or just thank?
Is that sort of a little more tolerable in any way?
Saying thank you for your sacrifices, I find it more tolerable.
At least it gives some thoughtfulness, at least some indication of some thoughtfulness
(19:24):
that there's something more to the service besides just having put in time.
That they have experienced something that maybe was more horrendous than what
the individual is giving them credit for.
But recognizing that there is something that they've gone through,
an experience that most people will never go through, I think is very important.
(19:49):
One of the things that Vietnam vets do to each other or for each other is still,
at this point, it's been five decades.
And to still say, welcome home, brother.
When I came home and got off that plane at McCourt Air Force Base,
there was no band, there was no welcoming committee, there was no well done, there was just silence.
(20:15):
In fact, it was four decades later that it was three horses that welcomed me
home. That's a story in itself.
Yeah, and I hope to have a conversation with you about that story in a future
conversation, because we do have, both of us have that deep connection with horses.
I do appreciate the understanding and connection with other sentient beings other than people,
(20:43):
and how we can find great healing and comfort and relationship with animals.
Look forward to that conversation with
you is there a specific example you
might give about a particular
instant incidence of somebody saying thank you for your service there is one
(21:08):
that continues to stand out in my mind it wasn't too long ago a couple years
maybe by now i guess to preface it my my vehicle has a license plate on it that
says disabled veteran and
It's not that I want people to know that I'm a disabled veteran.
It's that in having a disability.
(21:29):
That it entitles me to a tax break each year that I don't have to pay for the
relicensing of my vehicle, which is a significant amount of money.
But in exchange of that, I have to have this license plate that says disabled veteran.
It would be much preferable that the plate didn't say that, maybe just veteran.
(21:50):
I was getting some gas. I heard this voice, rather gruff voice.
The man said, are you the veteran driving this vehicle?
I tried to ignore it. After a few seconds, why that voice again?
Are you the disabled veteran who's driving this vehicle?
And I realized I'm not going to get away without recognizing or acknowledging this guy.
(22:15):
And I said, yes, I'm the driver.
He said, thank you for your service. And then was gone.
And before I could say anything or do anything or react to it.
It just was such a dissatisfying encounter with this gentleman, whoever he was.
(22:37):
I'm sure he felt he was doing his patriotic duty, perhaps.
It was the whole conversation. That was it. It was hello, goodbye.
He doesn't know me any better. I don't know him any better.
You know, it was just a totally unsatisfactory experience, in my opinion, for either of us.
(23:00):
I don't see that anything was gained by it.
But that is the acceptable greeting between civilians and veterans.
Thank you for sharing that story and for sharing your experience of that,
(23:21):
which I imagine has happened more than once as well and has happened to others,
helping civilians be a little more aware of their interactions and how that
may be well-intentioned,
But the actual delivery and experience could be way more satisfying if those
(23:44):
of us who want to appreciate your sacrifices are willing to engage in conversation
or perhaps just give you a nod or say thanks,
go about the business of the day, unless there is time to exchange a few more
sentences or minutes together.
(24:05):
As a veteran and one who has experienced the suffering side of war in a way that most veterans.
Veterans even have not experienced, because I was a medic and I saw that suffering in a more intense level.
I hope that this country can learn a better way of dealing with conflict and
(24:29):
a better way of helping the soldiers when they come home to return in a loving way.
We don't treat veterans well. Well, we expect the Veterans Administration to do the work for us.
And I have to tell you, the Veterans Administration, no matter how well they
(24:51):
intend to work with veterans, are not capable of doing for us what needs to be done.
The communities must step in and give us their time and their efforts and listen
to our stories to help us to come home.
(25:14):
Thank you so much, Bob, for sharing your time today and also sharing some of your experiences.
I look forward to having more conversations and bringing those to wider communities.
Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you for having me.
(25:36):
Thank you for listening to this InScape Quest podcast with me, Trudy Howley.
If you like this show, please subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Podbean and leave a comment.
You can also find me on Instagram at InScape Quest.
Thank you for listening and for your shares. Cheerio for now.
(25:57):
Music.
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