July 15, 2024 • 41 mins
Join host Trudi Howley on this episode of Inscape Quest as she engages in an enlightening conversation with renowned equine veterinarian and writer, Dr. Nancy Loving. With a career spanning from her graduation from Colorado State University Veterinary School in 1985, Dr. Loving has continuously emphasized the importance of a team effort with clients and educated decision-making regarding horses' health.
In this episode, Dr. Loving shares her vast knowledge on equine management and healthcare, focusing particularly on the feeding of high-starch and high-sugar grains. She delves into the evolutionary aspects of the horse digestive system, the implications of modern feeding practices, and the critical importance of maintaining a healthy microbiome.
Listeners will gain insights into how diet affects horses' behavior, performance, and overall health, as well as practical advice on managing equine nutrition. From understanding the dangers of overfeeding grains to exploring the benefits of high-fiber diets and the role of prebiotics, probiotics, and postbiotics, this episode is packed with valuable information for horse owners and carers.
Tune in to learn more about how to keep your equine friends healthy and happy through informed feeding practices, and discover why avoiding obesity and understanding the microbiome are key to preventing issues like laminitis and colic.
Dr. Loving has served as an FEI sanctioned veterinarian and has served as team veterinarian for USEF National Endurance Squad. She is also actively involved in NATRC competitions.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Today, I'm having a conversation with equine veterinarian and writer, Dr. Nancy Loving.
Dr. Loving regularly writes for Equine Management and Horse Magazine.
She's also authored five books on equine healthcare.
Throughout her professional career, beginning as a graduate from Colorado State
(00:20):
University Veterinary School in 1985,
she's continuously emphasized a team effort with clients through and educated
decision-making process regarding horses' health.
Today, she's continuing to share those efforts by communicating clear and accurate
information that can help guide horse owners and their carers around the feeding
(00:43):
of high-starch and high-sugar grains.
Welcome to InScape Quest, where insightful conversations redefine perspectives.
I'm your host, Trudy Howley. Join me as together we delve into discussions about
relationships, work, and passions.
(01:04):
This is InScape Quest, where the journey within meets the quest for understanding.
Welcome, Nancy. I'm really grateful that you're here to be discussing equine
management and welfare.
So thank you for being on this podcast today. Very nice to be here,
Trudy. I'm grateful for the opportunity.
(01:25):
Nancy, you've written so much about equine management and equine health over the years.
How long have you been writing about well-being?
Oh my goodness, I started when I got out of vet school in 1985,
and somebody wrote me into doing an article.
I was practicing out in Reno, Nevada at the time, and then it just took off
(01:49):
from there, And then I started to write volumes because so many questions were asked by my clients.
I thought it would be easier if they had something to refer to.
So now it's a passion that I love to educate.
And so I'm still doing it.
And it's wonderful because from what I've read over the years of your articles,
you really have a gift of educating horse owners and also providing very practical
(02:16):
solutions in an easy to understand way as well. So thank you.
I want to ask you today, because I have a particular interest in mental health,
behavior and diet with people. It's something that I study in my field.
I'm curious about work you're doing in terms of understanding how feed and diet affects horses.
(02:46):
Their health and behavior and performance, as well as obviously having an insight
to medical issues, being that you're a veterinarian as well.
We can take a deep dive because it's really high on my priority list with my
clients to get them to feed the best way possible and as safely as possible
(03:06):
because everything that goes into your horse ends up potentially affecting their entire body.
I'm excited to learn more from you today, particularly about current research
versus just traditional horsemanship.
And I know as an example, I grew up believing that horses should exercise on an empty stomach.
(03:33):
And I know now that's been debunked and that we should be feeding our horses something,
going into exercise or even competition, where would you like to begin in terms
of information that we really need to start with?
I want to talk about, initially, the evolution of the horse digestive system
(03:57):
and how what we're feeding today has affected that.
And I'll try to keep it simplistic. I won't go into any biochemistry,
but there will be some big words, and I'll explain them.
But I would like to let people understand that just going to the feed store
and picking up whatever their friend or their trainer recommends is not necessarily
in the best interest of the horse.
(04:18):
That sounds a great starting point.
To begin with, we have to look at how this marvel of evolution came about.
Horses have a unique digestive system, not like cows and not like people.
They have a lot of compartments, and they evolved to be trickle feeders,
meaning that they would eat small amounts of forbs, which are bushes and shrubs,
(04:42):
and grasses throughout the day and into the night, although they do have sleep periods.
And because they're trickle feeders, they don't have a big volume of food put
in front of them twice a day.
To maximize their digestive system, they need to be eating pretty constantly.
And this can't apply to horses that are overweight because then you will end
(05:07):
in a cycle of more problems.
But when possible, it's nice to be able to provide a horse with free choice grass hay.
The other evolutionary component that's important to think about is that horses
evolved within temperate climates and colder northern climates.
And so they would pack on the calories during the summer, spring,
(05:30):
fall months. And then in the winter, they would go without.
So they would lose that weight and they would keep moving. And they would move to graze and forage.
So they might go 7, 15, 20 miles a day just to get their groceries.
And so now horse owners have a plethora of materials to buy at the store.
(05:51):
And not only do they have a lot of very rich, high calorie feeds to choose from,
but they're feeding them 365 days a year.
And that's not how horses evolved in their digestive tracts.
That's so interesting just thinking about the evolutionary component and when
you talk about trickle feeding.
(06:12):
Thinking about how when my horse grazes on pasture that he loves to cover a
lot of ground and especially when he's being hand grazed as well,
he really likes to move around a lot.
So how does that work with horses being stabled or not getting as much pasture turnout as we'd like?
(06:34):
One of the issues with the feasting year-round philosophy of just throwing a
lot of food at them, even though they have not very high requirements for exercise,
not all horses are super athletes and performing at high level,
so they end up with too much nutrition.
And when the muscle cells are overwhelmed with those sugars that they then store
(06:56):
as glycogen, there's nowhere else to store it, so it goes into fat.
And that's where we start to get into problems. And I think obesity is one,
I think it's a problem for humans too, but obesity in horses is an enormous problem.
I spent so much time trying to help my clients feed properly that whenever I'd
come to their farm to do whatever veterinary work I was asked to do,
(07:20):
the first thing out of their mouth was, look at my horse, look how good he looks.
And they were so proud of this effort that they were making to keep their horse as healthy as possible.
And they did that by restricting a lot of the high-calorie feeds that so many
people go to the feed store to purchase.
This idea of overfeeding of grains, does that apply to particular types of grains?
(07:46):
Are some worse than others?
So grain is an all-encompassing word. Or...
In my experience with horse owners. Grain can be corn, oats, barley.
It can also be the concentrate supplements that are all in one feed.
I try to look at those all as one. The pellets that you can get that are about
(08:09):
25% grain and they have a lot of fiber material in there, either alfalfa or grass products.
So they're a lot healthier. But let's talk about the grain situation for a minute
because that's where we get into so much trouble.
And I think people are pretty well informed about gastric ulcers relating to grain products.
But let's look at what happens when horse eats something like a grain product
(08:33):
instead of their fiber products like grass or pasture.
That would be great. I'm just wondering, just to be super clear,
Leah, if we could just clarify what the difference between fiber and forage
is as well. You've named some of the grains.
Fiber is forage. Forage is fiber.
(08:55):
So those are plant products that grow from the ground, whether it's grass materials
or alfalfa or legume products, or in certain parts of the country.
Down the southeast, you'll have different kinds of grasses that serve as fiber.
Grain is actually the seed from some kind of a farmed product like oats, barley, or corn.
(09:18):
And horses aren't meant to eat those. Let me just explain what happens.
So these are called soluble carbohydrates.
And they create multiple problems. First off, you get fermentation in the stomach
with higher levels of acidity. And that can lead to gastric ulcers.
The excess sugar and starch can't be digested.
(09:40):
Utilized by the small intestinal enzymes. And this is really an important point
of this whole situation here, is that the sugars and starches spill over into
the hindgut, which is the large intestines.
And when they do that, it provides a feeding frenzy for all the lactic acid-producing bacteria.
That kills off the good bacteria, and then you end up with an acidic hindgut
(10:05):
instead of what it should be.
And then that creates innumerable problems.
I'm curious, as you begin to explain the problems, in terms of obesity,
how can you define that as well?
Typical horse owners might have a tape measure, or they might go by a body condition score.
(10:29):
Okay, body condition scoring is something that horse owners can look up on the internet. net.
It's the Haneke scale of 1 to 9.
A normal horse in excellent body condition is a 5.
If you hit 6, 7, 8, 6 or 7, that horse is what's called fleshy,
and show people tend to like that even though it's not as healthy for a horse.
(10:53):
When you hit 8 or 9, they're in serious trouble and they probably have severe laminitis.
Putting body condition scoring and obesity aside for a minute,
Let me just continue with some of the problems with feeding these high-calorie
soluble carbohydrates.
First of all, I told you that the sugars and starch spill over to the hindgut,
(11:17):
and that creates problems in the large intestine.
But also in the small intestine, what happens is...
There's so much acidity, and what happens is there are finger-like projections
on the lining of the small intestine. They're called villi.
And they start to contract back when they're faced with this kind of environment
related to grain feeding.
(11:39):
And when they do that, it's a protective measure to keep them from picking up
toxins or any kind of other substances into the circulation.
But it also shuts down the ability of that horse to absorb nutrients and water.
That can lead to diarrhea, and colic, weight loss, and poor performance,
right there in the small intestine.
(12:00):
So then, once we get into the large intestine, which is where all the nutritional
value comes from when you're feeding, that's where the fiber-fermenting bacteria
live, and they create a tremendous amount of energy-producing products for the horse.
So what happens there is the intestinal lining in the hindgut will be damaged
(12:21):
by this acidosis or high acidity from the spillover of the sugars and starches.
When that happens, you lose the integrity of the lining of the intestine.
Simply put, there are these things called tight junctions, which are between
each cell in the large intestine. Those cells are called enterocytes.
(12:42):
And between each cell, there's a tight junction, which is a a protein that allows
or disallows the movement of materials into the blood circulation.
This is at the heart of this conversation. And when it happens,
and the tight junctions lose their permeability protection, you have a leaky gut.
And I'm sure you've heard about leaky gut syndrome.
(13:05):
And this is where this sets off this incredible whole body inflammation.
It will start with maybe one area of the body, but then it will expand.
And I want to talk to you about some of the problems that come from this leaky
gut where proteins and bacterials and other pathogenic materials can be allowed into the circulation.
(13:25):
And that's really a very important and interesting point as well,
because leaky guts are very prevalent amongst people too.
And it seems more and more we're struggling in this country with the issue of pre-diabetes.
There's 88 million people who have pre-diabetes, and that can lead to a myriad of health problems.
(13:48):
I think what you're describing, even though the human and the horse has a very
different digestive system, this particular issue is very important.
These kind of problems can happen to horses of any body weight.
They don't have to just be obese. So if you feed a high grain.
Meal, five to ten pounds a day of a grain product,
(14:11):
that horse can also develop too much acidity in the intestinal tract and that
will damage the tight junctions and allow these other materials in the intestinal
tract to permeate into the circulation.
And once into the circulation, here we start in with all kinds of problems.
These materials can pass through the blood-brain barrier.
(14:34):
Inflammatory mediators called cytokines start as a process of the immune function
of the body, and that sets off inflammation throughout the body.
When the inflammation is in the brain, all of a
sudden you're dealing with behavioral issues because it's a non-ending cycle
and then horses that tend to be very calm may become hyper reactive to a touch
(15:00):
or sounds or movement or they can become aggressive and this is a big deal because one becomes dangerous.
Because they're volatile, and two, they can't perform well. I'm curious about human health.
We use the term dysbiosis, that being how intestinal health affects behavior as well.
(15:22):
What is the potential for dysbiosis in horses? Can it cause life-threatening issues?
Yes, and that's an excellent question. I just want to refer back to the brain
inflammation problem also can induce what's called sickness misbehavior.
And that means the horse is off food, it has a fever, and it's lethargic.
(15:43):
And obviously, that's not going to be very optimal for somebody wanting their
horse to perform difficult tasks.
Their mentation changes so that they don't train as well or learn as well,
and maybe they start acting out.
The other things that happen because of this inflammatory condition from the
leaky gut related to grain intake is that the horse's epithelial tissues particularly are affected.
(16:11):
And that means skin allergies are prevalent.
It means that also you have excess gas from fermentation and that can lead to
intestinal motility issues and colic.
And it's said that a colic risk increases three to six fold in horses fed grain,
especially if they're fed five to 10 pounds a day, which is a lot.
(16:32):
That's the kind of feed a racehorse would have.
But that doesn't mean that every horse needs to have that much grain to incite
this kind of inflammatory response.
Maybe two pounds of grain will cause this problem in some individuals.
The high starch and fructan sugars from grain or rich pasture increase the risk of laminitis.
(16:53):
And I think most people are aware that, particularly with obesity,
those horses are already in an inflammatory state.
And so you give them a burst of more of these cytokines and inflammatory products
within the system, and they tip over an edge.
I'm curious to know, how have we got to this point that colic and laminitis
(17:15):
are the two big things that terrifies most horse owners?
It seems like perhaps we're not really doing enough to support equine friends and partners here.
I think people are trying, they have the best of intentions,
but I think the lack of understanding of what's happening internally in the
(17:35):
body, and I don't think that horses and people are too dissimilar in these respects,
because you are what you eat, and in the case of a horse, that's very true.
Let's talk about the microbiome a little bit you
brought that up and where there are problems with the
microbiome and it is referred to as dysbiosis which is
just a way of saying that the bacterial components
(17:58):
within the intestinal tract have lost their diversity or they have an inappropriate
percentage of fiber fermenting bacteria which is necessary to the health of
the horse So the microbiome has a very important role in horses as an endocrine system as well,
and that interacts with the release of all kinds of biochemical agents.
(18:21):
I want to point out that it's not just diet that can affect the microbiome.
It's stress, it's training, competition, travel, transport, certain medications,
particularly non-steroidal anti-inflammatories like butyribanamine.
These all have great effects on the microbiome.
Then you couple that with obesity.
(18:41):
So as I said, the obese horse starts with a higher level of inflammation.
You get a burst of inflammation from high starch and sugar feeds.
And then whereas a normal horse can deal with that, an obese horse cannot.
And so that tips them over into kind of a situation known as insulin resistance.
Yes, that's important. It seems that the microbiome disturbances, stress,
(19:05):
obesity, and medications are some of the factors that need to be considered
in the development of insulin resistance in both people and in horses?
The more sugar that a horse or person consumes, the more insulin is produced
to deal with putting that into particular tissues, storing it as glycogen in
(19:27):
skeletal muscle tissue.
But in this case, despite ample amounts of circulating glucose,
the cells are starved. And so instead of storing it as glycogen, more fat is laid down.
And then you end up with an obese horse.
An analogy would be like falling domino. Let's say that insulin is a signal
(19:48):
that tips off the first domino.
In a healthy horse, the dominoes are going to all fall in a line and everything works out great.
But in an insulin-resistant horse, one domino is braced and it doesn't completely fall.
So then more insulin hits it to
get it to tip and so this is non-ending cycle of
(20:09):
insulin is being flushed into the system the sugar
has nowhere to go it's laid down in fat
and then you have an obesity issue and fat
is not an inert tissue we now know that fat releases inflammatory mediators
called cytokines which i mentioned before that affects whole body systems and
it leads to an unending cycle as these cytokines further initiate insulin resistance
(20:33):
by disrupting metabolism and fat and skeletal muscle tissue.
So you end up with this ongoing cyclical problem.
And the more insulin resistant the horse is, the worse the insulin resistance becomes.
And that can be tested for with sending certain blood samples to the lab.
(20:53):
Curious about what your training is and other the veterinarians,
because I know a lot of doctors specialize in particular things.
And human doctors, I'm talking about.
Don't necessarily have a lot of education in diet.
Do you think there's a need for more education and awareness with the veterinary community as well?
(21:18):
Mind you, I graduated from Colorado State University in 1985.
We had a dedicated nutritional program that was part of our class studies.
And that was in the sophomore year. And at the time, it was led by Dr.
Sarah Ralston, who was just fabulous with nutrition. She ended up at Rutgers.
But I don't know what the program is now. It's not really rocket science.
(21:42):
And I will talk about in terms of solutions to how to adjust or manage the microbiome to the best result.
Some of that is just basic common sense about how horses evolved and what they need to eat.
I want to also point out one other thing that I didn't mention is that age is
important too. too, because older horses tend to have higher circulating concentrations
(22:06):
of these inflammatory mediators called cytokines.
So they're a little more at risk for running into obesity and insulin resistant problems.
Noting that older horses have different
needs to younger horses and there may
be different needs for pregnant mares or
stallions or growing animals or
(22:28):
horses that are not in work versus horses that are in high intense training
how responsible do horse owners need to be around understanding this because
quite often i think they just leave feeding to the farm managers or their trainers.
(22:49):
That is a problem when you're boarding horses somewhere. You don't always have
control over what they eat.
If it's a small operation and you want to supplement with something like beet pulp,
which is an excellent high-calorie fiber-type product that also works as a prebiotic,
it helps neutrify the intestinal bacteria that you want to have in there.
(23:12):
So you may be able to go to the barn yourself and offer that to your horse at
lunch or something and maybe add some fat calories to the diet instead of relying on grains.
But with a big operation where you don't really have any say,
you're at their mercy, and all you can do is try to educate.
I encourage horse owners to get out there, read material, take it from good
(23:34):
sources like the Horse Magazine, and print out some of the articles and show
that to the horse managers at the barn.
That's really helpful and hopefully even listening to this podcast might help too.
Wondering about the supplementation of fat products as well as things like beet
(23:55):
pulp, does that give owners an option to cut back on the amount of grain that they might feed?
Yes, absolutely. Let's go through a few things that a person can do to really
optimize their horse's health and improve the microbiome to the best that it can be.
The first is to feed a high fiber, or if you want to call it forage diet,
and that would be hay and pasture or pasture.
(24:18):
Not everybody has pasture available, and pasture can cause its own set of problems
at certain times of the year when it's putting in lots of sugars.
That's a topic for a whole other conversation.
But we call it Dr. Green, and forage should be fed at least 60% of the diet
to a horse, and I prefer to see more like 80-90%.
(24:39):
Even 100%, especially for those that aren't doing much activity.
So what this high-forged diet does is it helps the intestinal bacteria produce
something called butyrate, which is a short-chain fatty acid that comes from
this fiber-fermenting intestinal bacteria.
And butyrate has an important role in the intestinal lining that it neutrophies
(25:01):
the actual cells within the intestinal lining and the enterocytes.
And it improves the colonic function of the large intestine.
So right there that you help prevent that leaky gut situation.
It also has been shown to reverse some negative effects of oral stereotypies
like crib biting, wind sucking, self-mutilation.
(25:24):
Butyrate is very important. And now there are more and more studies and attempts
to actually make a butyrate supplement that horse owners can feed.
That hasn't come to pass yet, but I think it's in the offing.
To protect the microbiome, you can buy commercial low-starch feeds.
They're available. And many of these are complete feeds, which means,
(25:47):
as I said earlier, that's about 25% grain and 75% fiber that's compressed into an edible pellet.
And so horses that need more calories to maintain their weight may need to have
some supplementation like that.
Many horses don't need that supplementation. If you've got a high energy athlete,
or I used to endurance race, you need to provide some extra nutrition.
(26:12):
When possible, the horse could be fed free choice, meaning that there's grass
hay availability all the time, but that only works for those horses that will
constrain their intake.
Yeah, I'm wondering, are there other options about feeding horses who can't
constrain their intake, thinking in particular things like hay nets or slow feeders?
(26:35):
Are those viable options for managing that? Yes.
I love grazing muzzles. I had some clients twist back 20 years ago when they
first started being used that it was cruel and unusual punishment.
And I have pictures of a client's two horses with their grazing muzzles running
in the pasture with rearing on their hind legs and playing with their muzzles in place.
(26:58):
And they can eat just fine it's like a duck bobbing
in the pasture and if you want to close the
hole up a little more with some gorilla tape you can further constrain what
they take in but that lets them be out roaming free without consuming and inhaling
as much pasture as they can take without the muzzle and so that horse gets to
(27:18):
exercise and they get to socialize and it's a fantastic way to help.
Further to improving the microbiome is to think about prebiotics,
probiotics, and postbiotics.
So prebiotics are things like quality forage, beet pulp, and psyllium,
which in my neck of the woods here in Colorado, we use psyllium to help remove
(27:41):
decomposed granite or sand from the intestinal tract.
High quality forage will do that too because it helps pull any kind of debris
out of the intestinal lining. And that can help with the microbiome.
The probiotics, those are specific bacteria and yeast.
The problem is they have to get past the stomach acids to be able to do anything.
(28:03):
And the other problem is, and there are innumerable articles about this,
that what is said to be in the bucket is not always in the bucket.
And so you can buy a probiotic and just be
wasting your money because there's nothing there that's going
to actually help your horse and what they say
is in there is not always in there in the proportions or even
(28:23):
in the exact materials and then
finally the postbiotics are what is released from the
intestines after the gut microbes feed on fiber and that then is the short-chain
fatty acids like butyrate you mentioned selenium and i know that there can be
a toxicity problem with that i've I've seen issues with that in Florida when
(28:47):
it's been supplemented.
Is it important to, rather than just wing it, that horse owners connect with
their veterinarians about supplementing with selenium or vitamin E as well, things like that?
Yeah, this is a little off the topic, but I practiced in Nevada and I practiced in Colorado.
(29:10):
In Nevada, they are selenium deficient.
So horses actually ended up getting injections, young foals,
because the forage just didn't have enough.
Here in Colorado, we have, especially on the Western Slope, we have the plants just absorb selenium.
So the toxicity issues go way up and nobody wants to ever treat a horse with selenium toxicity.
(29:32):
I had one horse with his hoof walls just falling off, and the mane and all the
hair is gone, falls out, and basically it's an intense laminitis,
and the horse either survives or has to be put down.
So I really urge people to talk to their veterinarian specifically about their
area of the country and make sure that you're feeding foods that are appropriate.
(29:55):
If you're buying bagged feed, complete feed, make sure it's not overloaded with
selenium in an area where the horse can't take in any more selenium. Thank you.
And you've mentioned laminitis just now and a couple times before as well,
wondering if it might be a good point to expand on the issues of that and overfeeding. eating.
(30:17):
Yes, laminitis doesn't just happen to obese horses.
It can happen for a number of reasons, but obesity is the number one reason
because it affects the entire endocrine system and that interferes with blood flow to the feet.
Laminitis is an incredibly complex system of a problem that even to this day,
(30:38):
we're still finding out more and more how to manage it and prevent it.
But let's go back to preventing the obesity problem, the microbiome problem.
Which are two of the big factors in laminitis developing.
And so I would urge people to limit or even eliminate the amount of concentrates
in grain that are fed to their horse, unless they're just a really hard keeper.
(31:03):
You want to increase the amount of forage in the diet. And then decrease stress
as best as possible using management strategies like stable the horse with compadres
who they get along with or not having any stress fighting with the other one over the fence.
Work on your feed protocols so that the horse is on a regular routine and preferably
(31:26):
has some hay in front of them at least during the day most of the time.
Figure out training, competition, travel schedules that fit in with what that horse can cope with.
Not every horse can just keep on the road and keep performing.
Some need a pretty good downtime and rest to restore whatever activity they were asked to do.
Minimize fasting periods. That's a really hard thing on the intestinal tract.
(31:50):
Horses that go 12 hours between feeds are very much at risk for having an interrupted
biome where you have dysbiosis.
Give them turnouts so they can be outside moving around.
If you have to use the grazing muzzle, use the grazing muzzle.
Use a slow feeder to slow down the intake of food so that they don't gobble it all at once.
(32:11):
Some horses do best when they're, if they're stalled, they need to have good
bedding so they can lie down and sleep and rest.
And then mental stimulation is really important, especially for horses that
are stalled, they at least have a window so they can look out the window or
have some contact with another horse through a mesh or something like that.
(32:32):
They're herd animals and they need to be together.
And then I want to talk a little bit about nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs,
especially when used long-term like buterbanamine or even curocoxate.
These definitely interrupt the microbiome. And then what people have done in
the past is they've used omeprazole or GastroGard to counteract what they think
(32:55):
is the adverse effects of the non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs are,
and that's actually exacerbating the problem.
And so omeprazole combined with these NSAIDs are able to do more intestinal
damage due to the effects on the microbial gut populations.
That's a very interesting topic. Is that something that That might be a little
(33:19):
controversial from the pharmaceutical companies out there.
It's well documented in many research projects that the NSAIDs combined with
GastroGard can create worse effects than just not having that GastroGard on board.
So this is a conversation to have with your veterinarian. And if they're not
(33:43):
familiar with this, get online, look it up. You can find these on PubMed.
We'll have some of these articles, and you can show it to them and educate them too.
So I want to just summarize how to feed is to keep it simple strategy.
Even though the microbiome is invisible, there are outward effects that become
(34:05):
obvious when horses begin to act out or experience intestinal distress or start
to show other signs of problems.
Consider the body as a whole interconnected organism. It's not just the feet
or the intestines or the skin.
Everything is interconnected just as we are.
There's just no one organ that's more important than another.
(34:26):
And then I always encourage people to consult with a veterinarian if you have
any questions, and certainly consult about diet.
And I think it's important, I'll just leave you with this,
it's nice to talk on the phone, and it's nice to bring your horse into a clinic,
but when the vet goes out to your house or your farm or your boarding stable,
(34:47):
they can actually see things that may have been unknown in relation to how the hay is stored.
Word is it up in a loft overhead that
then puts all this debris in the air and causes respiratory problems
is it on the ground getting moldy there are
so many things you can see when you actually visit the farm where the horse
is housed that seems like really good advice and good common sense as well and
(35:13):
i'm just thinking also in that simple strategy about water i know i have a horse
Horset's had some extensive dental issues, unfortunately,
and fresh, clean water has been super important for him if he's being fed outside
that he can have easy access to water to help him masticate hay because of his particular issues.
(35:37):
Yeah, water is all essential. A horse that cuts out their water intake in winter
months is prone to impaction colics.
They just don't digest their food well, And it just can actually set up and
become a hard, firm mass within the intestines.
Also, people need to check if they're using stock tank heaters.
They need to check that there's not a short in that heater.
(36:01):
Because I had my horse at one farm.
There were about 20 horses there, and they all wanted to drink,
but they would just put their muzzle in and back up because there was a low-grade
little electrical shock.
And we fixed it, and they immediately all went in and guzzled.
And it wasn't bad enough. You put your hand in and you didn't feel it,
but their muscles are so sensitive, they felt it.
(36:23):
Thank you for reminding people about those things and the importance of veterinarians
to and horse owners as well to actually physically put their eyes on what's going on.
There's a lot of moving parts to equine management.
Today, you've shared some really important information.
What do you hope that the biggest takeaway is in terms of educating and empowering
(36:48):
owners to maybe pay a little more attention to what the horses are eating?
I think the big takeaway here is to strive for a body condition score of 5 on
a Henneke scale, which you can look up.
And that means that you can just feel the last two ribs as you run your hand
down the horse's thorax.
(37:09):
Anything more is fatter and anything less is too thin.
The horse should be fed according to the athletic demands.
Hands if you are only able to ride on the weekend then
that horse isn't going to need a whole lot extra if you're riding
every day then you need to accommodate
what that horse's nutritional requirements are or intense work or continuous
(37:32):
work and then the other thing is do everything in your power to avoid your horse
becoming fat the obesity is a serious problem and it sets off this whole chain
reaction of everything.
And the one big thing you can do is stop feeding all these grain feeds and concentrate
more on a high forage diet.
(37:52):
Good quality hay cannot be substituted by anything else.
The fat from rice bran or oils is excellent when you need more calories.
Beet pulp is a good high energy food without causing problems,
provided it's not got molasses in it.
And talk to your veterinarian and get a schedule going
(38:13):
and if you're going to be riding more
at one time of the year than another then the horse needs more groceries that
time of the year relative to another and then down times when you're not using
your horse so much and do you have any thoughts about feeding alfalfa and what
might be too much yes i have a lot of thoughts about out alfalfa.
(38:33):
I have practiced in Colorado since 1987, and I was in Nevada, 85 to 87.
California and Nevada have just an amazing amount of alfalfa,
so it became a mainstay of the diet.
In Colorado, we have tremendously good grass haze, so not so much alfalfa.
The problem with alfalfa is it affects the thyroid and parathyroid glands, and so it,
(39:00):
has so much calcium among other things
potassium and everything but the calcium that it can actually
cause some changes in how a horse uses
the calcium and so for a distance traveling horse like an endurance horse they
can actually lose electrolytes too much because when they run out of their calcium
(39:22):
through sweat their parathyroid gland doesn't kick in well enough to provide pulling
it out of the bone or keeping it in from the kidneys.
And so that becomes a detriment.
So I'm a fan of feeding a little bit of alfalfa. Like one or two flakes a day
is great, but just a strict diet of alfalfa is pretty tough on them.
(39:44):
Great. Thank you for clarifying that. So I think today it's been some really
great information to get out there.
And obviously, listeners are invited to read some more of your articles,
which are readily available in a variety of horse magazines online,
and to speak to their own veterinarians and even to read the research papers
(40:10):
that are out there as well.
It seems like there's more and more good information that's coming out now.
Yeah, so there's an excellent repertoire of evidence-based research that gives
people strong information that's been proven to be helpful to their horses.
Horses and if you can just put aside the
(40:31):
old traditional ways of just grabbing a big bag of corn
oats barley and look into what you're
actually feeding and why that you want to
really focus on and good quality hay you'll be
a lot better off and your horse is going to perform well and behave
well and should be a lot of a
happier situation for everybody and we
(40:53):
certainly anyone happy and healthy horses for sure so
thank you so much for your contributions in general and specifically today i
really have learned a lot and have appreciated talking to you thank you thank
you very much and good luck everybody out there and be intelligently and keep it simple.
(41:15):
Thanks for joining us for this episode of
the inscape quest podcast please don't forget to share this episode with a friend
and hit that follow button we're excited to reconnect with you on our next adventure
be sure to find us on instagram at inscape quest for more content until next
time keep exploring the inner realms.
Today, I'm having a conversation with equine veterinarian and writer, Dr. Nancy Loving.
Dr. Loving regularly writes for Equine Management and Horse Magazine.
She's also authored five books on equine healthcare.
Throughout her professional career, beginning as a graduate from Colorado State
(00:20):
University Veterinary School in 1985,
she's continuously emphasized a team effort with clients through and educated
decision-making process regarding horses' health.
Today, she's continuing to share those efforts by communicating clear and accurate
information that can help guide horse owners and their carers around the feeding
(00:43):
of high-starch and high-sugar grains.
Welcome to InScape Quest, where insightful conversations redefine perspectives.
I'm your host, Trudy Howley. Join me as together we delve into discussions about
relationships, work, and passions.
(01:04):
This is InScape Quest, where the journey within meets the quest for understanding.
Welcome, Nancy. I'm really grateful that you're here to be discussing equine
management and welfare.
So thank you for being on this podcast today. Very nice to be here,
Trudy. I'm grateful for the opportunity.
(01:25):
Nancy, you've written so much about equine management and equine health over the years.
How long have you been writing about well-being?
Oh my goodness, I started when I got out of vet school in 1985,
and somebody wrote me into doing an article.
I was practicing out in Reno, Nevada at the time, and then it just took off
(01:49):
from there, And then I started to write volumes because so many questions were asked by my clients.
I thought it would be easier if they had something to refer to.
So now it's a passion that I love to educate.
And so I'm still doing it.
And it's wonderful because from what I've read over the years of your articles,
you really have a gift of educating horse owners and also providing very practical
(02:16):
solutions in an easy to understand way as well. So thank you.
I want to ask you today, because I have a particular interest in mental health,
behavior and diet with people. It's something that I study in my field.
I'm curious about work you're doing in terms of understanding how feed and diet affects horses.
(02:46):
Their health and behavior and performance, as well as obviously having an insight
to medical issues, being that you're a veterinarian as well.
We can take a deep dive because it's really high on my priority list with my
clients to get them to feed the best way possible and as safely as possible
(03:06):
because everything that goes into your horse ends up potentially affecting their entire body.
I'm excited to learn more from you today, particularly about current research
versus just traditional horsemanship.
And I know as an example, I grew up believing that horses should exercise on an empty stomach.
(03:33):
And I know now that's been debunked and that we should be feeding our horses something,
going into exercise or even competition, where would you like to begin in terms
of information that we really need to start with?
I want to talk about, initially, the evolution of the horse digestive system
(03:57):
and how what we're feeding today has affected that.
And I'll try to keep it simplistic. I won't go into any biochemistry,
but there will be some big words, and I'll explain them.
But I would like to let people understand that just going to the feed store
and picking up whatever their friend or their trainer recommends is not necessarily
in the best interest of the horse.
(04:18):
That sounds a great starting point.
To begin with, we have to look at how this marvel of evolution came about.
Horses have a unique digestive system, not like cows and not like people.
They have a lot of compartments, and they evolved to be trickle feeders,
meaning that they would eat small amounts of forbs, which are bushes and shrubs,
(04:42):
and grasses throughout the day and into the night, although they do have sleep periods.
And because they're trickle feeders, they don't have a big volume of food put
in front of them twice a day.
To maximize their digestive system, they need to be eating pretty constantly.
And this can't apply to horses that are overweight because then you will end
(05:07):
in a cycle of more problems.
But when possible, it's nice to be able to provide a horse with free choice grass hay.
The other evolutionary component that's important to think about is that horses
evolved within temperate climates and colder northern climates.
And so they would pack on the calories during the summer, spring,
(05:30):
fall months. And then in the winter, they would go without.
So they would lose that weight and they would keep moving. And they would move to graze and forage.
So they might go 7, 15, 20 miles a day just to get their groceries.
And so now horse owners have a plethora of materials to buy at the store.
(05:51):
And not only do they have a lot of very rich, high calorie feeds to choose from,
but they're feeding them 365 days a year.
And that's not how horses evolved in their digestive tracts.
That's so interesting just thinking about the evolutionary component and when
you talk about trickle feeding.
(06:12):
Thinking about how when my horse grazes on pasture that he loves to cover a
lot of ground and especially when he's being hand grazed as well,
he really likes to move around a lot.
So how does that work with horses being stabled or not getting as much pasture turnout as we'd like?
(06:34):
One of the issues with the feasting year-round philosophy of just throwing a
lot of food at them, even though they have not very high requirements for exercise,
not all horses are super athletes and performing at high level,
so they end up with too much nutrition.
And when the muscle cells are overwhelmed with those sugars that they then store
(06:56):
as glycogen, there's nowhere else to store it, so it goes into fat.
And that's where we start to get into problems. And I think obesity is one,
I think it's a problem for humans too, but obesity in horses is an enormous problem.
I spent so much time trying to help my clients feed properly that whenever I'd
come to their farm to do whatever veterinary work I was asked to do,
(07:20):
the first thing out of their mouth was, look at my horse, look how good he looks.
And they were so proud of this effort that they were making to keep their horse as healthy as possible.
And they did that by restricting a lot of the high-calorie feeds that so many
people go to the feed store to purchase.
This idea of overfeeding of grains, does that apply to particular types of grains?
(07:46):
Are some worse than others?
So grain is an all-encompassing word. Or...
In my experience with horse owners. Grain can be corn, oats, barley.
It can also be the concentrate supplements that are all in one feed.
I try to look at those all as one. The pellets that you can get that are about
(08:09):
25% grain and they have a lot of fiber material in there, either alfalfa or grass products.
So they're a lot healthier. But let's talk about the grain situation for a minute
because that's where we get into so much trouble.
And I think people are pretty well informed about gastric ulcers relating to grain products.
But let's look at what happens when horse eats something like a grain product
(08:33):
instead of their fiber products like grass or pasture.
That would be great. I'm just wondering, just to be super clear,
Leah, if we could just clarify what the difference between fiber and forage
is as well. You've named some of the grains.
Fiber is forage. Forage is fiber.
(08:55):
So those are plant products that grow from the ground, whether it's grass materials
or alfalfa or legume products, or in certain parts of the country.
Down the southeast, you'll have different kinds of grasses that serve as fiber.
Grain is actually the seed from some kind of a farmed product like oats, barley, or corn.
(09:18):
And horses aren't meant to eat those. Let me just explain what happens.
So these are called soluble carbohydrates.
And they create multiple problems. First off, you get fermentation in the stomach
with higher levels of acidity. And that can lead to gastric ulcers.
The excess sugar and starch can't be digested.
(09:40):
Utilized by the small intestinal enzymes. And this is really an important point
of this whole situation here, is that the sugars and starches spill over into
the hindgut, which is the large intestines.
And when they do that, it provides a feeding frenzy for all the lactic acid-producing bacteria.
That kills off the good bacteria, and then you end up with an acidic hindgut
(10:05):
instead of what it should be.
And then that creates innumerable problems.
I'm curious, as you begin to explain the problems, in terms of obesity,
how can you define that as well?
Typical horse owners might have a tape measure, or they might go by a body condition score.
(10:29):
Okay, body condition scoring is something that horse owners can look up on the internet. net.
It's the Haneke scale of 1 to 9.
A normal horse in excellent body condition is a 5.
If you hit 6, 7, 8, 6 or 7, that horse is what's called fleshy,
and show people tend to like that even though it's not as healthy for a horse.
(10:53):
When you hit 8 or 9, they're in serious trouble and they probably have severe laminitis.
Putting body condition scoring and obesity aside for a minute,
Let me just continue with some of the problems with feeding these high-calorie
soluble carbohydrates.
First of all, I told you that the sugars and starch spill over to the hindgut,
(11:17):
and that creates problems in the large intestine.
But also in the small intestine, what happens is...
There's so much acidity, and what happens is there are finger-like projections
on the lining of the small intestine. They're called villi.
And they start to contract back when they're faced with this kind of environment
related to grain feeding.
(11:39):
And when they do that, it's a protective measure to keep them from picking up
toxins or any kind of other substances into the circulation.
But it also shuts down the ability of that horse to absorb nutrients and water.
That can lead to diarrhea, and colic, weight loss, and poor performance,
right there in the small intestine.
(12:00):
So then, once we get into the large intestine, which is where all the nutritional
value comes from when you're feeding, that's where the fiber-fermenting bacteria
live, and they create a tremendous amount of energy-producing products for the horse.
So what happens there is the intestinal lining in the hindgut will be damaged
(12:21):
by this acidosis or high acidity from the spillover of the sugars and starches.
When that happens, you lose the integrity of the lining of the intestine.
Simply put, there are these things called tight junctions, which are between
each cell in the large intestine. Those cells are called enterocytes.
(12:42):
And between each cell, there's a tight junction, which is a a protein that allows
or disallows the movement of materials into the blood circulation.
This is at the heart of this conversation. And when it happens,
and the tight junctions lose their permeability protection, you have a leaky gut.
And I'm sure you've heard about leaky gut syndrome.
(13:05):
And this is where this sets off this incredible whole body inflammation.
It will start with maybe one area of the body, but then it will expand.
And I want to talk to you about some of the problems that come from this leaky
gut where proteins and bacterials and other pathogenic materials can be allowed into the circulation.
(13:25):
And that's really a very important and interesting point as well,
because leaky guts are very prevalent amongst people too.
And it seems more and more we're struggling in this country with the issue of pre-diabetes.
There's 88 million people who have pre-diabetes, and that can lead to a myriad of health problems.
(13:48):
I think what you're describing, even though the human and the horse has a very
different digestive system, this particular issue is very important.
These kind of problems can happen to horses of any body weight.
They don't have to just be obese. So if you feed a high grain.
Meal, five to ten pounds a day of a grain product,
(14:11):
that horse can also develop too much acidity in the intestinal tract and that
will damage the tight junctions and allow these other materials in the intestinal
tract to permeate into the circulation.
And once into the circulation, here we start in with all kinds of problems.
These materials can pass through the blood-brain barrier.
(14:34):
Inflammatory mediators called cytokines start as a process of the immune function
of the body, and that sets off inflammation throughout the body.
When the inflammation is in the brain, all of a
sudden you're dealing with behavioral issues because it's a non-ending cycle
and then horses that tend to be very calm may become hyper reactive to a touch
(15:00):
or sounds or movement or they can become aggressive and this is a big deal because one becomes dangerous.
Because they're volatile, and two, they can't perform well. I'm curious about human health.
We use the term dysbiosis, that being how intestinal health affects behavior as well.
(15:22):
What is the potential for dysbiosis in horses? Can it cause life-threatening issues?
Yes, and that's an excellent question. I just want to refer back to the brain
inflammation problem also can induce what's called sickness misbehavior.
And that means the horse is off food, it has a fever, and it's lethargic.
(15:43):
And obviously, that's not going to be very optimal for somebody wanting their
horse to perform difficult tasks.
Their mentation changes so that they don't train as well or learn as well,
and maybe they start acting out.
The other things that happen because of this inflammatory condition from the
leaky gut related to grain intake is that the horse's epithelial tissues particularly are affected.
(16:11):
And that means skin allergies are prevalent.
It means that also you have excess gas from fermentation and that can lead to
intestinal motility issues and colic.
And it's said that a colic risk increases three to six fold in horses fed grain,
especially if they're fed five to 10 pounds a day, which is a lot.
(16:32):
That's the kind of feed a racehorse would have.
But that doesn't mean that every horse needs to have that much grain to incite
this kind of inflammatory response.
Maybe two pounds of grain will cause this problem in some individuals.
The high starch and fructan sugars from grain or rich pasture increase the risk of laminitis.
(16:53):
And I think most people are aware that, particularly with obesity,
those horses are already in an inflammatory state.
And so you give them a burst of more of these cytokines and inflammatory products
within the system, and they tip over an edge.
I'm curious to know, how have we got to this point that colic and laminitis
(17:15):
are the two big things that terrifies most horse owners?
It seems like perhaps we're not really doing enough to support equine friends and partners here.
I think people are trying, they have the best of intentions,
but I think the lack of understanding of what's happening internally in the
(17:35):
body, and I don't think that horses and people are too dissimilar in these respects,
because you are what you eat, and in the case of a horse, that's very true.
Let's talk about the microbiome a little bit you
brought that up and where there are problems with the
microbiome and it is referred to as dysbiosis which is
just a way of saying that the bacterial components
(17:58):
within the intestinal tract have lost their diversity or they have an inappropriate
percentage of fiber fermenting bacteria which is necessary to the health of
the horse So the microbiome has a very important role in horses as an endocrine system as well,
and that interacts with the release of all kinds of biochemical agents.
(18:21):
I want to point out that it's not just diet that can affect the microbiome.
It's stress, it's training, competition, travel, transport, certain medications,
particularly non-steroidal anti-inflammatories like butyribanamine.
These all have great effects on the microbiome.
Then you couple that with obesity.
(18:41):
So as I said, the obese horse starts with a higher level of inflammation.
You get a burst of inflammation from high starch and sugar feeds.
And then whereas a normal horse can deal with that, an obese horse cannot.
And so that tips them over into kind of a situation known as insulin resistance.
Yes, that's important. It seems that the microbiome disturbances, stress,
(19:05):
obesity, and medications are some of the factors that need to be considered
in the development of insulin resistance in both people and in horses?
The more sugar that a horse or person consumes, the more insulin is produced
to deal with putting that into particular tissues, storing it as glycogen in
(19:27):
skeletal muscle tissue.
But in this case, despite ample amounts of circulating glucose,
the cells are starved. And so instead of storing it as glycogen, more fat is laid down.
And then you end up with an obese horse.
An analogy would be like falling domino. Let's say that insulin is a signal
(19:48):
that tips off the first domino.
In a healthy horse, the dominoes are going to all fall in a line and everything works out great.
But in an insulin-resistant horse, one domino is braced and it doesn't completely fall.
So then more insulin hits it to
get it to tip and so this is non-ending cycle of
(20:09):
insulin is being flushed into the system the sugar
has nowhere to go it's laid down in fat
and then you have an obesity issue and fat
is not an inert tissue we now know that fat releases inflammatory mediators
called cytokines which i mentioned before that affects whole body systems and
it leads to an unending cycle as these cytokines further initiate insulin resistance
(20:33):
by disrupting metabolism and fat and skeletal muscle tissue.
So you end up with this ongoing cyclical problem.
And the more insulin resistant the horse is, the worse the insulin resistance becomes.
And that can be tested for with sending certain blood samples to the lab.
(20:53):
Curious about what your training is and other the veterinarians,
because I know a lot of doctors specialize in particular things.
And human doctors, I'm talking about.
Don't necessarily have a lot of education in diet.
Do you think there's a need for more education and awareness with the veterinary community as well?
(21:18):
Mind you, I graduated from Colorado State University in 1985.
We had a dedicated nutritional program that was part of our class studies.
And that was in the sophomore year. And at the time, it was led by Dr.
Sarah Ralston, who was just fabulous with nutrition. She ended up at Rutgers.
But I don't know what the program is now. It's not really rocket science.
(21:42):
And I will talk about in terms of solutions to how to adjust or manage the microbiome to the best result.
Some of that is just basic common sense about how horses evolved and what they need to eat.
I want to also point out one other thing that I didn't mention is that age is
important too. too, because older horses tend to have higher circulating concentrations
(22:06):
of these inflammatory mediators called cytokines.
So they're a little more at risk for running into obesity and insulin resistant problems.
Noting that older horses have different
needs to younger horses and there may
be different needs for pregnant mares or
stallions or growing animals or
(22:28):
horses that are not in work versus horses that are in high intense training
how responsible do horse owners need to be around understanding this because
quite often i think they just leave feeding to the farm managers or their trainers.
(22:49):
That is a problem when you're boarding horses somewhere. You don't always have
control over what they eat.
If it's a small operation and you want to supplement with something like beet pulp,
which is an excellent high-calorie fiber-type product that also works as a prebiotic,
it helps neutrify the intestinal bacteria that you want to have in there.
(23:12):
So you may be able to go to the barn yourself and offer that to your horse at
lunch or something and maybe add some fat calories to the diet instead of relying on grains.
But with a big operation where you don't really have any say,
you're at their mercy, and all you can do is try to educate.
I encourage horse owners to get out there, read material, take it from good
(23:34):
sources like the Horse Magazine, and print out some of the articles and show
that to the horse managers at the barn.
That's really helpful and hopefully even listening to this podcast might help too.
Wondering about the supplementation of fat products as well as things like beet
(23:55):
pulp, does that give owners an option to cut back on the amount of grain that they might feed?
Yes, absolutely. Let's go through a few things that a person can do to really
optimize their horse's health and improve the microbiome to the best that it can be.
The first is to feed a high fiber, or if you want to call it forage diet,
and that would be hay and pasture or pasture.
(24:18):
Not everybody has pasture available, and pasture can cause its own set of problems
at certain times of the year when it's putting in lots of sugars.
That's a topic for a whole other conversation.
But we call it Dr. Green, and forage should be fed at least 60% of the diet
to a horse, and I prefer to see more like 80-90%.
(24:39):
Even 100%, especially for those that aren't doing much activity.
So what this high-forged diet does is it helps the intestinal bacteria produce
something called butyrate, which is a short-chain fatty acid that comes from
this fiber-fermenting intestinal bacteria.
And butyrate has an important role in the intestinal lining that it neutrophies
(25:01):
the actual cells within the intestinal lining and the enterocytes.
And it improves the colonic function of the large intestine.
So right there that you help prevent that leaky gut situation.
It also has been shown to reverse some negative effects of oral stereotypies
like crib biting, wind sucking, self-mutilation.
(25:24):
Butyrate is very important. And now there are more and more studies and attempts
to actually make a butyrate supplement that horse owners can feed.
That hasn't come to pass yet, but I think it's in the offing.
To protect the microbiome, you can buy commercial low-starch feeds.
They're available. And many of these are complete feeds, which means,
(25:47):
as I said earlier, that's about 25% grain and 75% fiber that's compressed into an edible pellet.
And so horses that need more calories to maintain their weight may need to have
some supplementation like that.
Many horses don't need that supplementation. If you've got a high energy athlete,
or I used to endurance race, you need to provide some extra nutrition.
(26:12):
When possible, the horse could be fed free choice, meaning that there's grass
hay availability all the time, but that only works for those horses that will
constrain their intake.
Yeah, I'm wondering, are there other options about feeding horses who can't
constrain their intake, thinking in particular things like hay nets or slow feeders?
(26:35):
Are those viable options for managing that? Yes.
I love grazing muzzles. I had some clients twist back 20 years ago when they
first started being used that it was cruel and unusual punishment.
And I have pictures of a client's two horses with their grazing muzzles running
in the pasture with rearing on their hind legs and playing with their muzzles in place.
(26:58):
And they can eat just fine it's like a duck bobbing
in the pasture and if you want to close the
hole up a little more with some gorilla tape you can further constrain what
they take in but that lets them be out roaming free without consuming and inhaling
as much pasture as they can take without the muzzle and so that horse gets to
(27:18):
exercise and they get to socialize and it's a fantastic way to help.
Further to improving the microbiome is to think about prebiotics,
probiotics, and postbiotics.
So prebiotics are things like quality forage, beet pulp, and psyllium,
which in my neck of the woods here in Colorado, we use psyllium to help remove
(27:41):
decomposed granite or sand from the intestinal tract.
High quality forage will do that too because it helps pull any kind of debris
out of the intestinal lining. And that can help with the microbiome.
The probiotics, those are specific bacteria and yeast.
The problem is they have to get past the stomach acids to be able to do anything.
(28:03):
And the other problem is, and there are innumerable articles about this,
that what is said to be in the bucket is not always in the bucket.
And so you can buy a probiotic and just be
wasting your money because there's nothing there that's going
to actually help your horse and what they say
is in there is not always in there in the proportions or even
(28:23):
in the exact materials and then
finally the postbiotics are what is released from the
intestines after the gut microbes feed on fiber and that then is the short-chain
fatty acids like butyrate you mentioned selenium and i know that there can be
a toxicity problem with that i've I've seen issues with that in Florida when
(28:47):
it's been supplemented.
Is it important to, rather than just wing it, that horse owners connect with
their veterinarians about supplementing with selenium or vitamin E as well, things like that?
Yeah, this is a little off the topic, but I practiced in Nevada and I practiced in Colorado.
(29:10):
In Nevada, they are selenium deficient.
So horses actually ended up getting injections, young foals,
because the forage just didn't have enough.
Here in Colorado, we have, especially on the Western Slope, we have the plants just absorb selenium.
So the toxicity issues go way up and nobody wants to ever treat a horse with selenium toxicity.
(29:32):
I had one horse with his hoof walls just falling off, and the mane and all the
hair is gone, falls out, and basically it's an intense laminitis,
and the horse either survives or has to be put down.
So I really urge people to talk to their veterinarian specifically about their
area of the country and make sure that you're feeding foods that are appropriate.
(29:55):
If you're buying bagged feed, complete feed, make sure it's not overloaded with
selenium in an area where the horse can't take in any more selenium. Thank you.
And you've mentioned laminitis just now and a couple times before as well,
wondering if it might be a good point to expand on the issues of that and overfeeding. eating.
(30:17):
Yes, laminitis doesn't just happen to obese horses.
It can happen for a number of reasons, but obesity is the number one reason
because it affects the entire endocrine system and that interferes with blood flow to the feet.
Laminitis is an incredibly complex system of a problem that even to this day,
(30:38):
we're still finding out more and more how to manage it and prevent it.
But let's go back to preventing the obesity problem, the microbiome problem.
Which are two of the big factors in laminitis developing.
And so I would urge people to limit or even eliminate the amount of concentrates
in grain that are fed to their horse, unless they're just a really hard keeper.
(31:03):
You want to increase the amount of forage in the diet. And then decrease stress
as best as possible using management strategies like stable the horse with compadres
who they get along with or not having any stress fighting with the other one over the fence.
Work on your feed protocols so that the horse is on a regular routine and preferably
(31:26):
has some hay in front of them at least during the day most of the time.
Figure out training, competition, travel schedules that fit in with what that horse can cope with.
Not every horse can just keep on the road and keep performing.
Some need a pretty good downtime and rest to restore whatever activity they were asked to do.
Minimize fasting periods. That's a really hard thing on the intestinal tract.
(31:50):
Horses that go 12 hours between feeds are very much at risk for having an interrupted
biome where you have dysbiosis.
Give them turnouts so they can be outside moving around.
If you have to use the grazing muzzle, use the grazing muzzle.
Use a slow feeder to slow down the intake of food so that they don't gobble it all at once.
(32:11):
Some horses do best when they're, if they're stalled, they need to have good
bedding so they can lie down and sleep and rest.
And then mental stimulation is really important, especially for horses that
are stalled, they at least have a window so they can look out the window or
have some contact with another horse through a mesh or something like that.
(32:32):
They're herd animals and they need to be together.
And then I want to talk a little bit about nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs,
especially when used long-term like buterbanamine or even curocoxate.
These definitely interrupt the microbiome. And then what people have done in
the past is they've used omeprazole or GastroGard to counteract what they think
(32:55):
is the adverse effects of the non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs are,
and that's actually exacerbating the problem.
And so omeprazole combined with these NSAIDs are able to do more intestinal
damage due to the effects on the microbial gut populations.
That's a very interesting topic. Is that something that That might be a little
(33:19):
controversial from the pharmaceutical companies out there.
It's well documented in many research projects that the NSAIDs combined with
GastroGard can create worse effects than just not having that GastroGard on board.
So this is a conversation to have with your veterinarian. And if they're not
(33:43):
familiar with this, get online, look it up. You can find these on PubMed.
We'll have some of these articles, and you can show it to them and educate them too.
So I want to just summarize how to feed is to keep it simple strategy.
Even though the microbiome is invisible, there are outward effects that become
(34:05):
obvious when horses begin to act out or experience intestinal distress or start
to show other signs of problems.
Consider the body as a whole interconnected organism. It's not just the feet
or the intestines or the skin.
Everything is interconnected just as we are.
There's just no one organ that's more important than another.
(34:26):
And then I always encourage people to consult with a veterinarian if you have
any questions, and certainly consult about diet.
And I think it's important, I'll just leave you with this,
it's nice to talk on the phone, and it's nice to bring your horse into a clinic,
but when the vet goes out to your house or your farm or your boarding stable,
(34:47):
they can actually see things that may have been unknown in relation to how the hay is stored.
Word is it up in a loft overhead that
then puts all this debris in the air and causes respiratory problems
is it on the ground getting moldy there are
so many things you can see when you actually visit the farm where the horse
is housed that seems like really good advice and good common sense as well and
(35:13):
i'm just thinking also in that simple strategy about water i know i have a horse
Horset's had some extensive dental issues, unfortunately,
and fresh, clean water has been super important for him if he's being fed outside
that he can have easy access to water to help him masticate hay because of his particular issues.
(35:37):
Yeah, water is all essential. A horse that cuts out their water intake in winter
months is prone to impaction colics.
They just don't digest their food well, And it just can actually set up and
become a hard, firm mass within the intestines.
Also, people need to check if they're using stock tank heaters.
They need to check that there's not a short in that heater.
(36:01):
Because I had my horse at one farm.
There were about 20 horses there, and they all wanted to drink,
but they would just put their muzzle in and back up because there was a low-grade
little electrical shock.
And we fixed it, and they immediately all went in and guzzled.
And it wasn't bad enough. You put your hand in and you didn't feel it,
but their muscles are so sensitive, they felt it.
(36:23):
Thank you for reminding people about those things and the importance of veterinarians
to and horse owners as well to actually physically put their eyes on what's going on.
There's a lot of moving parts to equine management.
Today, you've shared some really important information.
What do you hope that the biggest takeaway is in terms of educating and empowering
(36:48):
owners to maybe pay a little more attention to what the horses are eating?
I think the big takeaway here is to strive for a body condition score of 5 on
a Henneke scale, which you can look up.
And that means that you can just feel the last two ribs as you run your hand
down the horse's thorax.
(37:09):
Anything more is fatter and anything less is too thin.
The horse should be fed according to the athletic demands.
Hands if you are only able to ride on the weekend then
that horse isn't going to need a whole lot extra if you're riding
every day then you need to accommodate
what that horse's nutritional requirements are or intense work or continuous
(37:32):
work and then the other thing is do everything in your power to avoid your horse
becoming fat the obesity is a serious problem and it sets off this whole chain
reaction of everything.
And the one big thing you can do is stop feeding all these grain feeds and concentrate
more on a high forage diet.
(37:52):
Good quality hay cannot be substituted by anything else.
The fat from rice bran or oils is excellent when you need more calories.
Beet pulp is a good high energy food without causing problems,
provided it's not got molasses in it.
And talk to your veterinarian and get a schedule going
(38:13):
and if you're going to be riding more
at one time of the year than another then the horse needs more groceries that
time of the year relative to another and then down times when you're not using
your horse so much and do you have any thoughts about feeding alfalfa and what
might be too much yes i have a lot of thoughts about out alfalfa.
(38:33):
I have practiced in Colorado since 1987, and I was in Nevada, 85 to 87.
California and Nevada have just an amazing amount of alfalfa,
so it became a mainstay of the diet.
In Colorado, we have tremendously good grass haze, so not so much alfalfa.
The problem with alfalfa is it affects the thyroid and parathyroid glands, and so it,
(39:00):
has so much calcium among other things
potassium and everything but the calcium that it can actually
cause some changes in how a horse uses
the calcium and so for a distance traveling horse like an endurance horse they
can actually lose electrolytes too much because when they run out of their calcium
(39:22):
through sweat their parathyroid gland doesn't kick in well enough to provide pulling
it out of the bone or keeping it in from the kidneys.
And so that becomes a detriment.
So I'm a fan of feeding a little bit of alfalfa. Like one or two flakes a day
is great, but just a strict diet of alfalfa is pretty tough on them.
(39:44):
Great. Thank you for clarifying that. So I think today it's been some really
great information to get out there.
And obviously, listeners are invited to read some more of your articles,
which are readily available in a variety of horse magazines online,
and to speak to their own veterinarians and even to read the research papers
(40:10):
that are out there as well.
It seems like there's more and more good information that's coming out now.
Yeah, so there's an excellent repertoire of evidence-based research that gives
people strong information that's been proven to be helpful to their horses.
Horses and if you can just put aside the
(40:31):
old traditional ways of just grabbing a big bag of corn
oats barley and look into what you're
actually feeding and why that you want to
really focus on and good quality hay you'll be
a lot better off and your horse is going to perform well and behave
well and should be a lot of a
happier situation for everybody and we
(40:53):
certainly anyone happy and healthy horses for sure so
thank you so much for your contributions in general and specifically today i
really have learned a lot and have appreciated talking to you thank you thank
you very much and good luck everybody out there and be intelligently and keep it simple.
(41:15):
Thanks for joining us for this episode of
the inscape quest podcast please don't forget to share this episode with a friend
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be sure to find us on instagram at inscape quest for more content until next
time keep exploring the inner realms.
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