October 14, 2025 • 30 mins
On our Inside Geneva podcast this week, we ask: are other countries following Russia’s lead in cracking down on freedom of expression?
“I feel as though I’m monitoring a repression handbook used by the Russian government against its own civil society and, unfortunately, this handbook has been copied by other leaders in some democratic countries,” says Mariana Katzarova, the UN Special Rapporteur on human rights in Russia.
Russian journalists warn us not to take our freedoms for granted.
“It’s been more than a year since I was released from prison. Every morning I open my eyes and I’m so thankful. I know ‘democracy’ and ‘press freedom’ can sound vague to people living ordinary lives but when it comes to your door and rings your bell, it’s too late,” says Alsu Kurmasheva, Russian journalist freed in a 2024 prisoner swap.
They urge us not to stay silent in the face of authoritarianism.
“Through our silence, we have lost our country, Belarus. Those who remain silent really need to act, otherwise, what they’re leaving to their children is… silence,” says Svetlana Alexievich, author and Nobel Prize winner from Belarus.
Silencing the media isn’t new – but is it spreading?
“This issue about the media has long been part of the authoritarian rulebook: go after the press if you want to stay in power. What is happening now is that, in more and more countries, we see an authoritarian trend coming into politics,” says Irene Khan, UN Special Rapporteur on freedom of expression.
“Just be aware of the danger. Don’t let it happen. I’m watching closely what’s unfolding in the United States with the closure of these programmes. How will society respond? What will happen? Because this is how it begins,” says Boris Akunin, Russian author now living in exile in London.
Join host Imogen Foulkes on Inside Geneva.
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Host: Imogen Foulkes
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:07):
This is Inside Geneva.
I'm your host, Imogen Folkes,and this is a production from
SwissInfo, the internationalpublic media company of
Switzerland.
In today's program.
SPEAKER_08 (00:26):
I feel I'm monitoring the handbook for
repression that the Russiangovernment is using against its
own civil society.
And this handbook,unfortunately, has been copied
by other leaders of democraticcountries.
SPEAKER_09 (00:44):
Russia's last independent radio station has
been taken off the air.
SPEAKER_04 (01:07):
Well, it's fake news.
You know, it's just so it's sofake.
That's why the media has solittle credibility.
SPEAKER_15 (01:14):
This issue about the media has been there in the
authoritarian rule book for along time.
Go after the media if you wantto stay in power.
What is happening now is thatmore and more countries we see
an authoritarian trend cominggenerally into politics.
SPEAKER_05 (01:35):
Just be aware of this danger.
Just don't let it happen.
I'm watching now closely what'shappening in the United States
with closing of these programs.
How is the society going toreact?
What will happen?
Because this is how it starts.
SPEAKER_02 (01:56):
Hello and welcome again to Inside Geneva.
And ask how it might relate tothose of us living in what we
hope are free democraticsocieties.
How free are we really?
(02:16):
Are press freedom the right toprotest peacefully, or even the
right to question yourgovernment being eroded in our
own countries too?
Should we be worried aboutcreeping authoritarianism?
And what are the warning signs?
That's the discussion we'regoing to have today.
We'll be hearing from UN expertsand from writers and journalists
(02:39):
who have first-hand experienceof what repression of freedom of
speech means.
But first, to that latest UNreport on Russia.
SPEAKER_08 (02:48):
Russia is now run through a state-sponsored system
of fear and punishment, wheredissent is erased and civic
space dismantled.
SPEAKER_02 (02:58):
Mariana Katsarova, the UN special rapporteur on
Russia, is the first UN expertever appointed to investigate a
permanent member of the UNSecurity Council.
Her latest report was presentedto the Human Rights Council's
autumn session.
It documents a repression sostifling that virtually all
(03:19):
freedom of expression issilenced.
SPEAKER_08 (03:22):
And still, the remnants of civil society and
independent media are beingpersecuted, prosecuted, and
imprisoned.
SPEAKER_02 (03:32):
Immediately after presenting her report to UN
member states, I caught up withMariana Katsarova to hear more
about her findings.
SPEAKER_08 (04:05):
So there is a strategic effort to distort
historical truth about the past,particularly when this past was
about dissidents and resistanceto the Stalinist repression or
the crimes that were happening.
SPEAKER_02 (04:23):
What does it mean for a society?
I mean, this war has been goingon more than three years.
What does it mean for a societywhen it's a culture, its
memories in a way, are beingstamped on in this way?
SPEAKER_08 (04:36):
I think what it means for the society at the
moment, the Russian authoritiesare using education to also
destroy the outlook of the youngto history, but also to the
future and to the presence.
There are these special lessonsthat they have for children,
conversations about theimportant, lessons about the
(04:57):
important.
And the important is propagandaabout Ukraine not being a state
or the Ukrainians not being aseparate country.
At the same time, it's done in away that, or on the background
of distortion of historicaltruth about what Stalin did with
all these dissidents andpolitical prisoners, the
(05:18):
millions that perished ingulags.
And then the wholeindoctrination of children about
the war that is going on, tryingto justify that it stems from
the collective West beingagainst Russia and Russians, and
also that there are enemies ofthe motherland that need to be
(05:39):
destroyed, put in prison,stopped.
And these enemies are the humanrights uh defenders,
journalists, writers, uhhumanitarians.
SPEAKER_02 (05:49):
But to hammer home the report's findings and to
remind UN member states thatthere are still Russian voices
trying to speak out.
unknown (05:58):
Ms.
SPEAKER_02 (05:58):
Katsarova brought Russian writers and journalists
to Geneva.
Some who still live in Russiagently refused interviews,
fearing for their safety oncethey return.
SPEAKER_01 (06:10):
Russia's foreign agent law.
No, it's not about spies andespionage.
These days, it's Russianjournalists that are in the hot
seat.
SPEAKER_02 (06:18):
Others, like writer Boris Akunin, now live in the
United Kingdom.
He was recently designated aforeign agent by Moscow and
sentenced in absentia to 14years in prison for criticizing
Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
SPEAKER_05 (06:35):
So a foreign agent is anybody they do not approve
of.
It is not decided by a court ofjustice or something, just some
government institutions whichsays that you're a foreign
agent, which means you cannotwrite, you cannot publish, you
cannot teach, you are branded.
SPEAKER_16 (06:57):
We've got a lot of debate about free speech in the
so-called West right now.
How do you perceive that debate?
SPEAKER_05 (07:05):
Well, I think that the West these days is in deep
crisis.
Democracy, traditionaldemocracy, is in crisis.
Reasonable and grown-up peoplehave become a minority.
I believe that political elitesand traditional parties are all
in total crisis.
(07:27):
I think that we fail tounderstand that the tide has
changed, that the world haschanged, that the political
system created by the fall ofthe Berlin War, it's done, it's
over.
We are entering a totally newworld where everything will be
different.
I'm very much worried aboutwhat's going to happen in the
UK, in France, in the UnitedStates, it has already happened.
SPEAKER_02 (07:53):
You mean moving from democracy to authoritarianism?
SPEAKER_05 (07:59):
Moving from moving from common sense to craziness
on both sides.
It can be leftist extremism,quite infantile.
It can be right-wing extremists,which is even more dangerous.
And there is a very tiny spacein between.
(08:23):
So what we are in need of, Ithink a total reshaping of
liberalism.
We need not a childishliberalism, we need a grown-up
liberalism which brings us tofreedom of speech.
We need to be responsible, weneed to measure what we say, not
because we are afraid of beingcanceled or censorship, but
(08:46):
because we are grown-ups.
If we say something publicly, wemust understand the
consequences.
Another big issue of Westerndemocracy is inability to
communicate with people who areless educated than yourself.
This snobbery, this inability tocompete with Trump, who knows
(09:10):
how to speak with people.
He can find the words, he canfind the reasons, he can find
the levers.
Why cannot we do that?
Our ideas are better.
SPEAKER_16 (09:24):
Well, I mean, anybody can tell lies.
SPEAKER_05 (09:27):
You don't have to lie, but I know that we in
Russia we lost because we weretoo snobbish.
There was a famous Russiansaying which I absolutely hate,
belonging to a famous Russianpoet.
It says, if I need to explainthis, then you're not worth
(09:47):
explaining it to.
That's how it sounds.
That's how we mostly talk toourselves, to people who think
like ourselves.
Well, we should have talked topeople who do not think
ourselves, who are different.
And the same thing is happeningin the West, totally.
SPEAKER_02 (10:04):
From common sense to craziness, not an especially
hopeful analysis from BorisAkunin.
Also in Geneva was Belorusianwriter Svetlana Alekseyvich,
winner of the Nobel Prize forLiterature in 2015, and author
of Second Hand Time and TheUnwomanly Face of War.
(10:24):
Also now in exile from her owncountry and speaking through her
tireless interpreter Elena, sheshared Boris Okunin's concerns
about the direction many currentpolitical leaders are taking.
SPEAKER_07 (11:02):
There seem seems to be a kind of lack of awareness
in the world about what's reallyhappening today.
The same as 20 years ago we werethinking, well, you know, let it
develop this democracy.
Okay, it's weak, but it willslowly grow.
And we were thinking, well,nothing bad is really happening
around us.
Let it do it its own, let it goits own way.
(11:25):
And yet nobody is really takingit serious enough to work with
young people, with the emerginggenerations, with people in
general, to reflect upon whatwas happening to us, what is
actually going on around us.
(11:45):
And now we find our situation,ourselves in a situation when
fascism is all around us.
We are sitting here with fascismsurrounding us.
I think there is still this lackof understanding in Europe about
what is actually taking place inRussia.
They were saying to themselves,what not surely not fascism.
(12:18):
We haven't developed thecriteria to assess this new life
we are living in.
SPEAKER_00 (12:45):
The White House has given Harvard an ultimatum to
ditch diversity programs andmuzzle campus activism or lose
billions in federal funding.
SPEAKER_02 (12:54):
Are we in denial about Russia or about the new
and repressive direction theworld may be taking?
In fact, the panel discussionsMariana Katsarova organized to
allow writers like Akunin andAlexeyevich to share their views
were completely full, standingroom only, and there was
(13:14):
testimony from journalists withfirst-hand experience of the
risks of trying to reportobjectively from a repressive
regime.
SPEAKER_13 (13:32):
After my arrest and detention in Russia, more than
nine months in prison.
SPEAKER_02 (13:58):
She has dual nationality, Russian and
American.
Charged with failing to registeras a foreign agent, she spent
months in jail before beingfreed in last year's historic
(14:19):
prisoner swap.
Now she asks people to rememberthe many journalists, lawyers,
and human rights defenders whoremain imprisoned in Russia.
SPEAKER_13 (14:34):
There are somebody's husbands and wives and their
family members and they are realpeople who suffered and risked
everything for their reportingjust for us and other people to
know what's happening in Russia.
SPEAKER_02 (14:53):
How do you see the freedom of journalists to report
objectively on a wider scale?
Obviously, this report isfocused on Russia, but the
climate, to me anyway, feels notideal in other places too.
SPEAKER_13 (15:10):
Well, things are changing.
I heard today from severalpeople, and not only
journalists, that freedom ofspeech and democracy are not for
granted.
This is something that has to bedeveloped.
This is something that has to betaken care of.
And uh probably we we missed anopportunity of taking care of
(15:31):
and cherishing democracy andfreedom of speech some time ago.
But it's never late to startnow.
It's never late to acknowledgehow precious it is, how precious
democracy, how precious freedomis.
SPEAKER_02 (15:43):
Interviewing these writers and journalists now
exiled from their home countriesbecause they tried to report,
write, and express themselvesfreely, I was struck by their
warnings to us to be alert forthe signs of authoritarianism,
of the repression of freedom ofspeech.
SPEAKER_12 (16:02):
The American TV network ABC has taken the
late-night talk show host JimmyKimmel off-air indefinitely.
SPEAKER_03 (16:10):
When a late-night host is on network television,
there is a licensing.
If they're getting a license, Iwould think maybe their license
should be taken away.
SPEAKER_02 (16:20):
The Russia Report was published the same week that
in the United States, thelate-night chat show host Jimmy
Kimmel was taken off air.
The significance was not lost onIrene Khan, the UN special
rapporteur on freedom ofexpression, who points out that
other governments have beenadopting Russia's tactics for
(16:41):
quite some time.
SPEAKER_15 (16:42):
I am concerned about shrinking freedom of expression,
and it goes back even beyond uhwhat has happened in Russia
since the invasion of uhUkraine.
My first mission in this currentposition as this special
rapporteur on freedom of opinionand expression was to Hungary.
And in Hungary, I discovered howthe Orban government has
(17:04):
captured the media.
And they started.
The first legislation that wasever introduced by that
government was in 2010, and itwas the Media Act.
So it was quite clear that ifyou want to take over
institutions in a country, ifyou want to entrench your
authority uh in an authoritarianway, you start with independent
(17:26):
media.
You undermine them, you controlthem, and you know in in uh
Hungary it is also, it's it'sall uh manipulated through media
ownership, where basically thereis no independent, very little
independent media that existsoffline, whether in print or uh
broadcast or radio.
So I think this issue about themedia has been there in the
(17:48):
authoritarian rule book for along time.
Go after the media if you wantto stay in power.
What is happening now is thatactually uh more and more and
more countries, we see anauthoritarian trend coming
generally into politics.
And of course, each of them arethen looking to uh how to
control the media.
(18:09):
Russia has been incredibly uhcomplete in the way in which
they have captured or removedall independent media.
Uh, when they introduced thelegislation, you know, against
uh speaking about uh theinvasion of uh Ukraine as
invasion uh introduced a numberof legislation way back in 2022.
At that point, I called it aninformation blackout.
(18:31):
And since then, of course, weknow that it has only become
deeper, and now uh independentmedia is outside across the
border.
SPEAKER_16 (18:38):
Can I ask you then?
Because sometimes I sense acertain complacency in what we
often loosely term Westerndemocracies, that they say, oh
well, but that's Russia, it'snot happening here.
SPEAKER_02 (18:52):
Are there signs that it is?
And if if there are, what arethey for you?
SPEAKER_15 (18:56):
I think there are worrying signs.
I would say uh if you look atmedia ownership in Western
democracies, for a long timethat has been an issue that no
one's talked about.
The European Union did notrequire any transparency with
regard to media ownership untilthe Media Freedom Act came in.
So, you know, and and what wehave what we saw were media
(19:18):
barons.
And the media barons, of course,reduce pluralism and diversity
of media.
That has been a problem, Ithink, in Western democracy for
a long time.
What we see alongside that nowhappening are other ways of
trying to gag media.
We see an increase in slaps,these are strategic legal
actions that are brought againstuh journalists.
(19:38):
We see that increasingly now inthe US, where the president of
the United States sues mediaoutlets for defamation.
And we see settlements takingplace between the president of
the United States and a mediaoutlet for millions.
SPEAKER_02 (19:52):
Do you think those big media outlets in the United
States rolled over too quickly?
Because it's what that's what alot of my journalist colleagues
say.
SPEAKER_15 (20:00):
Well, it's uh not for me to sort of judge why
they're doing it, but let's notforget that media outlets are
commercial outlets, yet the jobthey do is a public interest
job.
So there is this sort of tensionin these organizations where,
for commercial purposes, theowners or or the top uh echelon
of the media outlets uh want tosettle.
(20:22):
Whereas the real job, which isthe public interest job of
providing truth to thepopulation to uh have a free
debate on many issues, that iskind of forgotten.
So that there is a tensionthere, and we see that tension
working out in this politicalenvironment where the
authoritarian trends areemerging across institutional
capture, uh restriction on notjust on freedom of uh the media,
(20:46):
but on academic freedom, forexample, or artistic freedom
across the spectrum of freedomof expression.
SPEAKER_04 (20:52):
We took the freedom of speech away because that's
been through the courts, and wewill absolutely target you, go
after you if you are targetinganyone with hate speech.
SPEAKER_02 (21:05):
And Mariana Katsarova agrees, we are
witnessing repression of freedomof expression on a much wider
scale than many of us could haveimagined even a year ago.
These tactics are not unique tothe Kremlin, she warns, and we
shouldn't be complacent.
SPEAKER_08 (21:23):
Well, what's happening in in um Russia and my
role, I feel I'm monitoring thehandbook for repression that the
Russian government um is usingagainst its own civil society,
journalism, free speech.
And this handbook,unfortunately, what we see in
(21:44):
the world, has been copied byother leaders of other
countries, democratic countries,um, which are starting to
experience a clampdown onfreedom of expression, of
closing television stations andshows and newspapers.
So I think it's a warning.
I mean, the law on foreignagent, for example, which Russia
(22:07):
uses against its civil societyand cultural figures.
Now, even in my country,Bulgaria, they're discussing to
adopt such a law.
Or, you know, it it happens inother countries as well.
I mean, this handbook ofrepression or uh clamp down on
freedom of expression is now umreaching uh countries and
(22:30):
leaders of countries which uhfor so long have been
democratic.
I mean, yes, it's within Europe,also the United States at the
moment, and this is the warningfrom Russia.
So we shouldn't really abandonthe fight for human rights, the
support for the civil societythere.
Because it could happen to anyof us in any country.
SPEAKER_02 (22:52):
You say that you feel that looking at Russia,
it's a it's a manual for how torepress free speech, and you're
expressed concern that othercountries are reading bits of
that manual and thinking, ohyeah, I'll do that.
What are the key warning signsthat in a democracy we should
watch out for and how can westand up for free speech?
SPEAKER_08 (23:14):
Yes, when the truth becomes um a political
commodity, when uh journalistsare being um sacked or silenced
or programs are being closedonly because um a leader or um
governments don't like the soundof truth or speaking truth to
(23:34):
the power.
Yeah?
If that's not what journalism isabout, and this is challenged,
then this is the first sign.
But it's also um not covering,even not allowing the news about
events to be covered in itsentirety, so the truth to be
told.
That's a warning sign.
That's the first sign.
(23:55):
And I think uh so many populistsare coming to power, populist
parties are coming to power indifferent countries, we see it
in Europe, for example, who arepreaching completely everything
against the UniversalDeclaration of Human Rights.
All the talks against uhrefugees and asylum seekers and
(24:16):
migrants and minorities, youknow, LGBT, uh indigenous
people, national minorities, thesame as in Russia.
The crackdown on LGBT persons,activists, the crackdown on
indigenous people, nationalminorities, being pronounced
extremist organizations,extremist people, and then being
(24:38):
criminalized and imprisoned forbeing extremist.
These are the signs, this hatespeech starts now to be heard in
our parliaments.
It echoes the rhetoric of theRussian authorities.
But then the Russian authoritiesare acting on this.
I hope that we won't see thishappening in our countries.
SPEAKER_02 (24:58):
And that's a hope shared by the writers and
journalists I talk to, startingwith Svetlana Alexeyevit, they
too all warned againstcomplacency and urged us not to
stay silent in the face ofattacks on freedoms many of us,
so used to them perhaps, maytake for granted.
SPEAKER_07 (25:24):
There is a famous saying that the worst things are
happening in the world when goodpeople are keeping silent.
So the good people in Russia,the good people in Belarus are
keeping silent.
Whereas the evil people in bothcountries are doing what we see
in front of our eyes.
(25:47):
So I don't think we should singthe odes to silence.
I don't think it's right.
Because we have, through oursilence, we have lost our
country in Belarus by beingsilent.
Those people who are keepingsilent, they should really do
something.
SPEAKER_05 (26:12):
Just don't let it happen.
So I'm watching now closelywhat's happening in in the
United States with closing ofthese programs.
How is the society going toreact?
What will happen?
(26:32):
Because this is how it starts.
SPEAKER_13 (26:34):
You know, it's been more than a year since I got
released from prison.
Every morning I open my eyes.
I'm so thankful.
Like everyone involved whobrought me back to my family for
my children.
This is exactly it.
I know democracy and pressfreedom sounds very vague for
people who uh live ordinarylives, right?
(26:55):
As you said, okay, this conflictis happening there, why would I
care?
But uh actually, when it comesto you to your door and ring the
bell, it's too late.
Well, that's why, at least to becurious what's happening in
different parts of the world,that's our duty as citizens of
the free world.
And um act small steps.
SPEAKER_02 (27:24):
And those powerful testimonies from Svetlana
Alexeyvich, Boris Akunin, andAlsu Kurmasheva bring us to the
end of this edition of InsideGeneva.
We hope you enjoyed what theyhad to say, and perhaps you're
motivated by their encouragementnot to stay silent, to be aware,
(27:45):
and to take steps, even smallones, to protect our precious
freedom of expression.
Coming up in future episodes ofInside Geneva, we'll continue
the theme of freedom ofexpression by talking to
journalists about the challengesand pressures around reporting
(28:07):
on the conflict between Israeland Gaza.
SPEAKER_15 (28:09):
What Israel is doing, on the one hand, it has
blocked access to internationalmedia, and on the other hand, it
claims that local journalistswho very often are working for
international outlets are eitherHamas associated with Hamas and
it's not telling the truth, butIsrael can't have it both ways.
All Israel has to do is to allowinternational media in and let
(28:31):
international media see what isactually happening.
SPEAKER_02 (28:34):
And we'll be asking whether the United Nations, now
80 years old, can survivewithout the United States.
A reminder inside Geneva comesout every other Tuesday.
In the meantime, you can catchup on previous episodes wherever
you get your podcasts.
Find out what the laws ongenocide really say, or how the
(28:56):
International Red Cross unitesprisoners of war with their
families, and the impact onwomen and girls of the cuts to
humanitarian funding.
Don't forget to subscribe to usand review us.
We're always keen to hear yourviews.
I'm Imogen Folks.
This is Inside Geneva.
I'm your host, Imogen Folkes,and this is a production from
SwissInfo, the internationalpublic media company of
Switzerland.
In today's program.
SPEAKER_08 (00:26):
I feel I'm monitoring the handbook for
repression that the Russiangovernment is using against its
own civil society.
And this handbook,unfortunately, has been copied
by other leaders of democraticcountries.
SPEAKER_09 (00:44):
Russia's last independent radio station has
been taken off the air.
SPEAKER_04 (01:07):
Well, it's fake news.
You know, it's just so it's sofake.
That's why the media has solittle credibility.
SPEAKER_15 (01:14):
This issue about the media has been there in the
authoritarian rule book for along time.
Go after the media if you wantto stay in power.
What is happening now is thatmore and more countries we see
an authoritarian trend cominggenerally into politics.
SPEAKER_05 (01:35):
Just be aware of this danger.
Just don't let it happen.
I'm watching now closely what'shappening in the United States
with closing of these programs.
How is the society going toreact?
What will happen?
Because this is how it starts.
SPEAKER_02 (01:56):
Hello and welcome again to Inside Geneva.
And ask how it might relate tothose of us living in what we
hope are free democraticsocieties.
How free are we really?
(02:16):
Are press freedom the right toprotest peacefully, or even the
right to question yourgovernment being eroded in our
own countries too?
Should we be worried aboutcreeping authoritarianism?
And what are the warning signs?
That's the discussion we'regoing to have today.
We'll be hearing from UN expertsand from writers and journalists
(02:39):
who have first-hand experienceof what repression of freedom of
speech means.
But first, to that latest UNreport on Russia.
SPEAKER_08 (02:48):
Russia is now run through a state-sponsored system
of fear and punishment, wheredissent is erased and civic
space dismantled.
SPEAKER_02 (02:58):
Mariana Katsarova, the UN special rapporteur on
Russia, is the first UN expertever appointed to investigate a
permanent member of the UNSecurity Council.
Her latest report was presentedto the Human Rights Council's
autumn session.
It documents a repression sostifling that virtually all
(03:19):
freedom of expression issilenced.
SPEAKER_08 (03:22):
And still, the remnants of civil society and
independent media are beingpersecuted, prosecuted, and
imprisoned.
SPEAKER_02 (03:32):
Immediately after presenting her report to UN
member states, I caught up withMariana Katsarova to hear more
about her findings.
SPEAKER_08 (04:05):
So there is a strategic effort to distort
historical truth about the past,particularly when this past was
about dissidents and resistanceto the Stalinist repression or
the crimes that were happening.
SPEAKER_02 (04:23):
What does it mean for a society?
I mean, this war has been goingon more than three years.
What does it mean for a societywhen it's a culture, its
memories in a way, are beingstamped on in this way?
SPEAKER_08 (04:36):
I think what it means for the society at the
moment, the Russian authoritiesare using education to also
destroy the outlook of the youngto history, but also to the
future and to the presence.
There are these special lessonsthat they have for children,
conversations about theimportant, lessons about the
(04:57):
important.
And the important is propagandaabout Ukraine not being a state
or the Ukrainians not being aseparate country.
At the same time, it's done in away that, or on the background
of distortion of historicaltruth about what Stalin did with
all these dissidents andpolitical prisoners, the
(05:18):
millions that perished ingulags.
And then the wholeindoctrination of children about
the war that is going on, tryingto justify that it stems from
the collective West beingagainst Russia and Russians, and
also that there are enemies ofthe motherland that need to be
(05:39):
destroyed, put in prison,stopped.
And these enemies are the humanrights uh defenders,
journalists, writers, uhhumanitarians.
SPEAKER_02 (05:49):
But to hammer home the report's findings and to
remind UN member states thatthere are still Russian voices
trying to speak out.
unknown (05:58):
Ms.
SPEAKER_02 (05:58):
Katsarova brought Russian writers and journalists
to Geneva.
Some who still live in Russiagently refused interviews,
fearing for their safety oncethey return.
SPEAKER_01 (06:10):
Russia's foreign agent law.
No, it's not about spies andespionage.
These days, it's Russianjournalists that are in the hot
seat.
SPEAKER_02 (06:18):
Others, like writer Boris Akunin, now live in the
United Kingdom.
He was recently designated aforeign agent by Moscow and
sentenced in absentia to 14years in prison for criticizing
Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
SPEAKER_05 (06:35):
So a foreign agent is anybody they do not approve
of.
It is not decided by a court ofjustice or something, just some
government institutions whichsays that you're a foreign
agent, which means you cannotwrite, you cannot publish, you
cannot teach, you are branded.
SPEAKER_16 (06:57):
We've got a lot of debate about free speech in the
so-called West right now.
How do you perceive that debate?
SPEAKER_05 (07:05):
Well, I think that the West these days is in deep
crisis.
Democracy, traditionaldemocracy, is in crisis.
Reasonable and grown-up peoplehave become a minority.
I believe that political elitesand traditional parties are all
in total crisis.
(07:27):
I think that we fail tounderstand that the tide has
changed, that the world haschanged, that the political
system created by the fall ofthe Berlin War, it's done, it's
over.
We are entering a totally newworld where everything will be
different.
I'm very much worried aboutwhat's going to happen in the
UK, in France, in the UnitedStates, it has already happened.
SPEAKER_02 (07:53):
You mean moving from democracy to authoritarianism?
SPEAKER_05 (07:59):
Moving from moving from common sense to craziness
on both sides.
It can be leftist extremism,quite infantile.
It can be right-wing extremists,which is even more dangerous.
And there is a very tiny spacein between.
(08:23):
So what we are in need of, Ithink a total reshaping of
liberalism.
We need not a childishliberalism, we need a grown-up
liberalism which brings us tofreedom of speech.
We need to be responsible, weneed to measure what we say, not
because we are afraid of beingcanceled or censorship, but
(08:46):
because we are grown-ups.
If we say something publicly, wemust understand the
consequences.
Another big issue of Westerndemocracy is inability to
communicate with people who areless educated than yourself.
This snobbery, this inability tocompete with Trump, who knows
(09:10):
how to speak with people.
He can find the words, he canfind the reasons, he can find
the levers.
Why cannot we do that?
Our ideas are better.
SPEAKER_16 (09:24):
Well, I mean, anybody can tell lies.
SPEAKER_05 (09:27):
You don't have to lie, but I know that we in
Russia we lost because we weretoo snobbish.
There was a famous Russiansaying which I absolutely hate,
belonging to a famous Russianpoet.
It says, if I need to explainthis, then you're not worth
(09:47):
explaining it to.
That's how it sounds.
That's how we mostly talk toourselves, to people who think
like ourselves.
Well, we should have talked topeople who do not think
ourselves, who are different.
And the same thing is happeningin the West, totally.
SPEAKER_02 (10:04):
From common sense to craziness, not an especially
hopeful analysis from BorisAkunin.
Also in Geneva was Belorusianwriter Svetlana Alekseyvich,
winner of the Nobel Prize forLiterature in 2015, and author
of Second Hand Time and TheUnwomanly Face of War.
(10:24):
Also now in exile from her owncountry and speaking through her
tireless interpreter Elena, sheshared Boris Okunin's concerns
about the direction many currentpolitical leaders are taking.
SPEAKER_07 (11:02):
There seem seems to be a kind of lack of awareness
in the world about what's reallyhappening today.
The same as 20 years ago we werethinking, well, you know, let it
develop this democracy.
Okay, it's weak, but it willslowly grow.
And we were thinking, well,nothing bad is really happening
around us.
Let it do it its own, let it goits own way.
(11:25):
And yet nobody is really takingit serious enough to work with
young people, with the emerginggenerations, with people in
general, to reflect upon whatwas happening to us, what is
actually going on around us.
(11:45):
And now we find our situation,ourselves in a situation when
fascism is all around us.
We are sitting here with fascismsurrounding us.
I think there is still this lackof understanding in Europe about
what is actually taking place inRussia.
They were saying to themselves,what not surely not fascism.
(12:18):
We haven't developed thecriteria to assess this new life
we are living in.
SPEAKER_00 (12:45):
The White House has given Harvard an ultimatum to
ditch diversity programs andmuzzle campus activism or lose
billions in federal funding.
SPEAKER_02 (12:54):
Are we in denial about Russia or about the new
and repressive direction theworld may be taking?
In fact, the panel discussionsMariana Katsarova organized to
allow writers like Akunin andAlexeyevich to share their views
were completely full, standingroom only, and there was
(13:14):
testimony from journalists withfirst-hand experience of the
risks of trying to reportobjectively from a repressive
regime.
SPEAKER_13 (13:32):
After my arrest and detention in Russia, more than
nine months in prison.
SPEAKER_02 (13:58):
She has dual nationality, Russian and
American.
Charged with failing to registeras a foreign agent, she spent
months in jail before beingfreed in last year's historic
(14:19):
prisoner swap.
Now she asks people to rememberthe many journalists, lawyers,
and human rights defenders whoremain imprisoned in Russia.
SPEAKER_13 (14:34):
There are somebody's husbands and wives and their
family members and they are realpeople who suffered and risked
everything for their reportingjust for us and other people to
know what's happening in Russia.
SPEAKER_02 (14:53):
How do you see the freedom of journalists to report
objectively on a wider scale?
Obviously, this report isfocused on Russia, but the
climate, to me anyway, feels notideal in other places too.
SPEAKER_13 (15:10):
Well, things are changing.
I heard today from severalpeople, and not only
journalists, that freedom ofspeech and democracy are not for
granted.
This is something that has to bedeveloped.
This is something that has to betaken care of.
And uh probably we we missed anopportunity of taking care of
(15:31):
and cherishing democracy andfreedom of speech some time ago.
But it's never late to startnow.
It's never late to acknowledgehow precious it is, how precious
democracy, how precious freedomis.
SPEAKER_02 (15:43):
Interviewing these writers and journalists now
exiled from their home countriesbecause they tried to report,
write, and express themselvesfreely, I was struck by their
warnings to us to be alert forthe signs of authoritarianism,
of the repression of freedom ofspeech.
SPEAKER_12 (16:02):
The American TV network ABC has taken the
late-night talk show host JimmyKimmel off-air indefinitely.
SPEAKER_03 (16:10):
When a late-night host is on network television,
there is a licensing.
If they're getting a license, Iwould think maybe their license
should be taken away.
SPEAKER_02 (16:20):
The Russia Report was published the same week that
in the United States, thelate-night chat show host Jimmy
Kimmel was taken off air.
The significance was not lost onIrene Khan, the UN special
rapporteur on freedom ofexpression, who points out that
other governments have beenadopting Russia's tactics for
(16:41):
quite some time.
SPEAKER_15 (16:42):
I am concerned about shrinking freedom of expression,
and it goes back even beyond uhwhat has happened in Russia
since the invasion of uhUkraine.
My first mission in this currentposition as this special
rapporteur on freedom of opinionand expression was to Hungary.
And in Hungary, I discovered howthe Orban government has
(17:04):
captured the media.
And they started.
The first legislation that wasever introduced by that
government was in 2010, and itwas the Media Act.
So it was quite clear that ifyou want to take over
institutions in a country, ifyou want to entrench your
authority uh in an authoritarianway, you start with independent
(17:26):
media.
You undermine them, you controlthem, and you know in in uh
Hungary it is also, it's it'sall uh manipulated through media
ownership, where basically thereis no independent, very little
independent media that existsoffline, whether in print or uh
broadcast or radio.
So I think this issue about themedia has been there in the
(17:48):
authoritarian rule book for along time.
Go after the media if you wantto stay in power.
What is happening now is thatactually uh more and more and
more countries, we see anauthoritarian trend coming
generally into politics.
And of course, each of them arethen looking to uh how to
control the media.
(18:09):
Russia has been incredibly uhcomplete in the way in which
they have captured or removedall independent media.
Uh, when they introduced thelegislation, you know, against
uh speaking about uh theinvasion of uh Ukraine as
invasion uh introduced a numberof legislation way back in 2022.
At that point, I called it aninformation blackout.
(18:31):
And since then, of course, weknow that it has only become
deeper, and now uh independentmedia is outside across the
border.
SPEAKER_16 (18:38):
Can I ask you then?
Because sometimes I sense acertain complacency in what we
often loosely term Westerndemocracies, that they say, oh
well, but that's Russia, it'snot happening here.
SPEAKER_02 (18:52):
Are there signs that it is?
And if if there are, what arethey for you?
SPEAKER_15 (18:56):
I think there are worrying signs.
I would say uh if you look atmedia ownership in Western
democracies, for a long timethat has been an issue that no
one's talked about.
The European Union did notrequire any transparency with
regard to media ownership untilthe Media Freedom Act came in.
So, you know, and and what wehave what we saw were media
(19:18):
barons.
And the media barons, of course,reduce pluralism and diversity
of media.
That has been a problem, Ithink, in Western democracy for
a long time.
What we see alongside that nowhappening are other ways of
trying to gag media.
We see an increase in slaps,these are strategic legal
actions that are brought againstuh journalists.
(19:38):
We see that increasingly now inthe US, where the president of
the United States sues mediaoutlets for defamation.
And we see settlements takingplace between the president of
the United States and a mediaoutlet for millions.
SPEAKER_02 (19:52):
Do you think those big media outlets in the United
States rolled over too quickly?
Because it's what that's what alot of my journalist colleagues
say.
SPEAKER_15 (20:00):
Well, it's uh not for me to sort of judge why
they're doing it, but let's notforget that media outlets are
commercial outlets, yet the jobthey do is a public interest
job.
So there is this sort of tensionin these organizations where,
for commercial purposes, theowners or or the top uh echelon
of the media outlets uh want tosettle.
(20:22):
Whereas the real job, which isthe public interest job of
providing truth to thepopulation to uh have a free
debate on many issues, that iskind of forgotten.
So that there is a tensionthere, and we see that tension
working out in this politicalenvironment where the
authoritarian trends areemerging across institutional
capture, uh restriction on notjust on freedom of uh the media,
(20:46):
but on academic freedom, forexample, or artistic freedom
across the spectrum of freedomof expression.
SPEAKER_04 (20:52):
We took the freedom of speech away because that's
been through the courts, and wewill absolutely target you, go
after you if you are targetinganyone with hate speech.
SPEAKER_02 (21:05):
And Mariana Katsarova agrees, we are
witnessing repression of freedomof expression on a much wider
scale than many of us could haveimagined even a year ago.
These tactics are not unique tothe Kremlin, she warns, and we
shouldn't be complacent.
SPEAKER_08 (21:23):
Well, what's happening in in um Russia and my
role, I feel I'm monitoring thehandbook for repression that the
Russian government um is usingagainst its own civil society,
journalism, free speech.
And this handbook,unfortunately, what we see in
(21:44):
the world, has been copied byother leaders of other
countries, democratic countries,um, which are starting to
experience a clampdown onfreedom of expression, of
closing television stations andshows and newspapers.
So I think it's a warning.
I mean, the law on foreignagent, for example, which Russia
(22:07):
uses against its civil societyand cultural figures.
Now, even in my country,Bulgaria, they're discussing to
adopt such a law.
Or, you know, it it happens inother countries as well.
I mean, this handbook ofrepression or uh clamp down on
freedom of expression is now umreaching uh countries and
(22:30):
leaders of countries which uhfor so long have been
democratic.
I mean, yes, it's within Europe,also the United States at the
moment, and this is the warningfrom Russia.
So we shouldn't really abandonthe fight for human rights, the
support for the civil societythere.
Because it could happen to anyof us in any country.
SPEAKER_02 (22:52):
You say that you feel that looking at Russia,
it's a it's a manual for how torepress free speech, and you're
expressed concern that othercountries are reading bits of
that manual and thinking, ohyeah, I'll do that.
What are the key warning signsthat in a democracy we should
watch out for and how can westand up for free speech?
SPEAKER_08 (23:14):
Yes, when the truth becomes um a political
commodity, when uh journalistsare being um sacked or silenced
or programs are being closedonly because um a leader or um
governments don't like the soundof truth or speaking truth to
(23:34):
the power.
Yeah?
If that's not what journalism isabout, and this is challenged,
then this is the first sign.
But it's also um not covering,even not allowing the news about
events to be covered in itsentirety, so the truth to be
told.
That's a warning sign.
That's the first sign.
(23:55):
And I think uh so many populistsare coming to power, populist
parties are coming to power indifferent countries, we see it
in Europe, for example, who arepreaching completely everything
against the UniversalDeclaration of Human Rights.
All the talks against uhrefugees and asylum seekers and
(24:16):
migrants and minorities, youknow, LGBT, uh indigenous
people, national minorities, thesame as in Russia.
The crackdown on LGBT persons,activists, the crackdown on
indigenous people, nationalminorities, being pronounced
extremist organizations,extremist people, and then being
(24:38):
criminalized and imprisoned forbeing extremist.
These are the signs, this hatespeech starts now to be heard in
our parliaments.
It echoes the rhetoric of theRussian authorities.
But then the Russian authoritiesare acting on this.
I hope that we won't see thishappening in our countries.
SPEAKER_02 (24:58):
And that's a hope shared by the writers and
journalists I talk to, startingwith Svetlana Alexeyevit, they
too all warned againstcomplacency and urged us not to
stay silent in the face ofattacks on freedoms many of us,
so used to them perhaps, maytake for granted.
SPEAKER_07 (25:24):
There is a famous saying that the worst things are
happening in the world when goodpeople are keeping silent.
So the good people in Russia,the good people in Belarus are
keeping silent.
Whereas the evil people in bothcountries are doing what we see
in front of our eyes.
(25:47):
So I don't think we should singthe odes to silence.
I don't think it's right.
Because we have, through oursilence, we have lost our
country in Belarus by beingsilent.
Those people who are keepingsilent, they should really do
something.
SPEAKER_05 (26:12):
Just don't let it happen.
So I'm watching now closelywhat's happening in in the
United States with closing ofthese programs.
How is the society going toreact?
What will happen?
(26:32):
Because this is how it starts.
SPEAKER_13 (26:34):
You know, it's been more than a year since I got
released from prison.
Every morning I open my eyes.
I'm so thankful.
Like everyone involved whobrought me back to my family for
my children.
This is exactly it.
I know democracy and pressfreedom sounds very vague for
people who uh live ordinarylives, right?
(26:55):
As you said, okay, this conflictis happening there, why would I
care?
But uh actually, when it comesto you to your door and ring the
bell, it's too late.
Well, that's why, at least to becurious what's happening in
different parts of the world,that's our duty as citizens of
the free world.
And um act small steps.
SPEAKER_02 (27:24):
And those powerful testimonies from Svetlana
Alexeyvich, Boris Akunin, andAlsu Kurmasheva bring us to the
end of this edition of InsideGeneva.
We hope you enjoyed what theyhad to say, and perhaps you're
motivated by their encouragementnot to stay silent, to be aware,
(27:45):
and to take steps, even smallones, to protect our precious
freedom of expression.
Coming up in future episodes ofInside Geneva, we'll continue
the theme of freedom ofexpression by talking to
journalists about the challengesand pressures around reporting
(28:07):
on the conflict between Israeland Gaza.
SPEAKER_15 (28:09):
What Israel is doing, on the one hand, it has
blocked access to internationalmedia, and on the other hand, it
claims that local journalistswho very often are working for
international outlets are eitherHamas associated with Hamas and
it's not telling the truth, butIsrael can't have it both ways.
All Israel has to do is to allowinternational media in and let
(28:31):
international media see what isactually happening.
SPEAKER_02 (28:34):
And we'll be asking whether the United Nations, now
80 years old, can survivewithout the United States.
A reminder inside Geneva comesout every other Tuesday.
In the meantime, you can catchup on previous episodes wherever
you get your podcasts.
Find out what the laws ongenocide really say, or how the
(28:56):
International Red Cross unitesprisoners of war with their
families, and the impact onwomen and girls of the cuts to
humanitarian funding.
Don't forget to subscribe to usand review us.
We're always keen to hear yourviews.
I'm Imogen Folks.
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