A Conversation about BYU with Sue Bergin

Sue Bergin, a former BYU adjunct faculty member, was one of the few people willing to go on the record for the Salt Lake Tribune's groundbreaking article about BYU's current hiring and firing practices. She joins Ian and Jim to tell her story and discuss what's happening at BYU. 

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Hello and welcome to another episode of Inside Out.

(00:19):
My name is Jim Bennett and I amhere as always with the mighty
Ian Wilkes.
Ian, how are you, sir?
I'm doing well today, Jim.
How are you?
I'm doing all right.
So this is a podcast I'veactually been looking forward to
since we set it up.

(00:39):
And I want to just dive straightin and introduce our guest here
at the beginning, because Ithink this is a really important
topic.
And we've got somebody reallywonderful who can shed some
light on what's happening here.
In the past week, the Salt LakeTribune published an article
called Dark Days on New ruleshave BYU professors running

(01:01):
scared.
And the focus of the article isabout Clark Gilbert, who is the
church's education commissioner,and his hiring and firing
practices, and how the people atBYU are terrified about what's
happening because, as thearticle describes it, it's a
black box and it only opens forClark Gilbert.

(01:24):
Nobody really knows what thestandards are.
Nobody really knows where theline is.
People are being let go.
People are not being hired.
And they're not being told why.
And there's a lot of speculationas to why.
But it's such a frustrating andterrifying situation that no BYU

(01:47):
professors, currently employedBYU professors, were willing to
speak.
However, some...
Former BYU professors have beenwilling to speak, and one person
who has been quoted in thearticle is someone that I
remember from my SouthernCalifornia days, was a friend of

(02:08):
the family, and is a veryaccomplished writer and editor
who used to be an adjunctfaculty member in BYU's Marriott
School of Management.
And we are very excited andgrateful to be able to welcome
Sue Bergen to the Inside Outpodcast.

(02:29):
Sue, how are you?
I'm

SPEAKER_02 (02:31):
doing well.
Thanks for having me, Jim andIan.

SPEAKER_01 (02:35):
Well, very much appreciate you coming to speak
with us, especially since youare one of the few people that
actually went on record here.
I'm looking at the article thatPeggy Fletcher Stack wrote.
It says Bergen was let go in2022 after teaching writing at
the Provo School for 28 years.

(02:56):
I thought you were in theMarriott School, but were you in
the writing department orEnglish department?

SPEAKER_02 (03:01):
I was.
So I worked full time in thepublic affairs office, public
communications, when ElderHolland was president.
And I've worked as an adjunctfor...
in the Honors Program and theMarriott School for a total of
about 12 years.
And I wrote for BYU Magazine,now Y Magazine, for 17...

(03:25):
I had a regular section for 17years.
I wrote for them for about 35years.

SPEAKER_01 (03:33):
Okay.
So you were quite the fixture atBYU.

SPEAKER_02 (03:38):
A lot of people knew me because I interviewed so many
professors for...
the family focus section, whichwas my section for those 17
years at Wide Magazine.

SPEAKER_01 (03:50):
Okay.
Well, so from the article, itsays, Bergen was let go in 2022
after teaching writing at theProvo School for 28 years.
She suspects it was for wearingrainbow pins, telling her
students that she believes inlove for everyone, and for
stating she has two gaybrothers.
Because Bergen had worked forBYU's public communications

(04:12):
office when now-apostle JeffreyHolland was the university
president, she contacted himafter she was let go to ask if
someone at church headquarters,quote, had a problem with me,
unquote, since she didn't knowanyone at BYU who did.
Can you give us a little moreinsight?
The article says that you, thatElder Holland wrote back to say

(04:34):
it is not a Board of Trusteesmatter per se.
So he was going to, quote, stepout of this circle.
What does he mean by step out ofthis circle?

SPEAKER_02 (04:44):
Well, he, so this was all by email, and he
graciously offered to see whathe could find out on my behalf
about what led to this, whathappened.
And I think when he found out,he didn't tell me that he found
out, but I think when he foundout, it was an internal matter

(05:06):
that They didn't want to talkabout it.
It had something to do, I'mpretty sure, with the
ecclesiastical clearance office,which at the time no one knew
about.
There was a clearance.
Your ecclesiastical clearancewas done by your bishop, and my
bishop had endorsed me.

(05:27):
No one knew there was thisseparate new black box at church
headquarters.
So I can only connect dots, youknow, that that existed.
And the folks there, whoeverthey are and whatever they're
doing, probably found somethingin my social media.

(05:49):
I was pretty loud about my LGBTadvocacy on my private Facebook.
Well, I mean, I guess somepeople consider that public.
I don't know.
I kept it private with friendsmost of the time.
And I never...
said anything publicly as and onmy Facebook page opposing any

(06:14):
church policy.
I would just talk about love andacceptance and suicide rates.
Anyway, so I suspect they foundlots there, and that's what led
to me being fired, but nobodywanted to say that to me or felt
they could legally say that tome because that could open them

(06:34):
up to something.
I don't know what...
So he came back to me aftersaying he had checked various
places.
It was Christmas time.
He was having trouble gettingpeople answering and so on.
And because he determined theboard of trustees did not have a
problem with me, he was going tostep out of this circle of

(07:00):
trying to communicate withothers at BYU about what might
have happened.
So that's what he means by thecircle, this circle of inquiry,
I guess.

SPEAKER_01 (07:10):
So he just punked it, essentially.

SPEAKER_02 (07:12):
Yeah, and he referred me to Clark Gilbert.
He said, here's Clark Gilbert'semail address, and feel free to
email him.
And I did.

SPEAKER_01 (07:23):
Did you get a response?

SPEAKER_02 (07:27):
Yes, he'd had COVID, so it took about 10 days before
he responded to me.
And he just said, you know, Ihear great things about your
family and I don't knowanything, or I don't know if he
said, I don't know anything, buthe said, I'm going to, I'm going
to refer you to an administratorat BYU, the associate academic

(07:51):
vice president for facultyrelations.
So I emailed him another 10 daysgoes by and he just says, per
our longstanding practice atBYU, we don't discuss these
things.
And I understand you're,Distressed about not knowing
why, but he wasn't going to tellme.

(08:11):
So I was just trying to get someinformation because I wanted to
appeal it.
I wanted to find out what theaccusation was and see if I
could address it.
I had no warning, no word fromanyone that there was a problem.
And I was being advanced, what Iconsidered advanced, to a new

(08:34):
position.
And that's apparently whattriggered the review.
And this was a new procedurealso.
To that point, if you werevetted by BYU and your bishop,
you could move around at BYU.
But apparently there wassomething new.
And since the musket talk, Ibelieve, that was the triggering

(08:58):
event that gave Clark Gilbertpermission to crack down on
orthodoxy or non-orthodoxy byhis and I don't know who else's
definition.
Because those definitions, youknow, obviously are, they vary

(09:19):
widely from person to person andeven among the 12, so.

SPEAKER_01 (09:23):
So Clark Gilbert...
told you that he didn't have aproblem with you and wouldn't
tell you what the problem was?

SPEAKER_02 (09:29):
He didn't say he didn't have a problem with me.
He just was very, I mean, I canpull it up if you want me to.
Do

SPEAKER_01 (09:40):
you attribute the decision not to terminate your
employment to Clark Gilbert?

SPEAKER_02 (09:50):
I attribute it to the policies he set up with this
ecclesiastical clearance office.
I don't know that he reviewed ithimself.
I don't know.
I can tell you, I just, youknow, just for accuracy, I'm
sorry about your status with theuniversity.

(10:11):
As Elder Holland mentioned,nothing came from church
headquarters on this specificcase.
It appears to be a localdecision by BYU.
I did track down where to reachout for appeals, and there are
no appeals for adjuncts, and hehas to have known that.
It doesn't exist.
You can contact, blah, blah,blah.

(10:32):
I've included his contact, andthat's it.

SPEAKER_01 (10:35):
Thank you for your...
Adjuncts aren't employees,right?
Adjuncts are...
They're

SPEAKER_02 (10:40):
contract workers.

SPEAKER_01 (10:42):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (10:43):
By the way, it appears to be a local decision
by BYU...
He knew that it was not a localdecision like BYU.
I mean, he had to have knownthat.

SPEAKER_01 (10:55):
Well, I had a conversation within the last
couple of days with the bishopafter Peggy's article came out.
And I was talking to thisbishop, and the bishop said,
look, I don't understand whyanybody would complain about BYU
because everybody knows thatwhen they decide to go to school
there or when they decide toseek employment there, that

(11:18):
there are these very clearstandards as to what you should
and shouldn't be doing.
And my response, this bishop hadclearly not read this article,
because my response was, yes,everybody does have these clear
standards that they agree tolive by, but the thing that's so

(11:39):
dangerous at the mall at BYU isthat People are being let go.
People are not being hired basedon standards that are anything
but clear.
This idea of the black box, thefact that you have not, I mean,
you're assuming it's because ofyour LGBTQ advocacy, despite the

(12:03):
fact that there's nothing in BYUstandards, at least in terms of
Temple Recommend interviews oranything else, that prohibits
people from being allies ofLGBTQ people.
But there is sort of kind of anunspoken cultural, and at least

(12:32):
now it seems ecclesiastical,authoritative opposition to that
kind of allyship, but nobodyknows where the line is.
Is it too much to wear a rainbowpin?
Is it too much to talk abouthaving gay family members?
I'm assuming you weren't likepetitioning the church to

(12:55):
perform same-sex temple ceilingsor anything like that.
No, I wasn't.
No.
This to me is what's sodisturbing is that You know, if
you know what you're gettinginto, you know, I didn't go to
BYU as an undergraduate.
The reason I stayed in SouthernCalifornia is that I didn't want

(13:15):
to mess with the honor code.
It wasn't that I was doinganything that was opposed to the
honor code, but I just thought Ireally don't want to worry about
it.
What was interesting in myexperience is that I went back
to BYU.
I got my undergraduate intheater from the University of
Southern California.
And then I went to BYU to get amaster's of business

(13:35):
administration from the MarriottSchool.
And by that point, I wasmarried.
I had one daughter and hadanother daughter while I was
going to school.
And I had a great experience atBYU.
And part of it, I think, wasthat I wasn't living on campus.
I wasn't really part of thecampus culture.

(13:56):
I lived in Salt Lake andcommuted down to BYU while I was
getting my master's.
But I really enjoyed it.
And I enjoyed the fact that youcould be a member of the church.
Going to USC, you just didn'tdiscuss your sort of church life
in any kind of a school setting.

(14:17):
And I found it really refreshingto be able to do that at BYU.
But this was also in 1997.
And the kind of LGBTQ advocacythat has...
People often forget, I think,and correct me if I'm wrong, but

(14:37):
people forget how quickly LGBTQacceptance has come on the
scene.
In 1997, if you took a poll,there were polls.
My father was in the UnitedStates Senate at the time, and
this was a year after theDefense of Marriage Act was
passed and signed into law by aDemocratic president.

(14:59):
And polls showed that somethinglike 80% of Americans were
opposed to same-sex marriage.
And so, I mean, the kind ofsocial pressure that BYU is
under now as the country hasmoved towards greater inclusion,
moved towards greateracceptance, same-sex marriage is

(15:19):
now the law of the land.
The church has even endorsed theRespect for Marriage Act.
Did I say respect for marriagebefore?
It was the Defense of MarriageAct in 1996.
And now it's the Respect forMarriage Act, which has codified
same-sex marriage as legal inall 50 states.
And the church has endorsed thatbill.

(15:40):
So the church has actually madea great deal of movement in that
direction.
Not as much as many allies wouldlike to see.
But...
And it's really remarkable as Ilook at BYU now and I look at my
positive experience of BYU, Ireally lament and I'm worried

(16:02):
about the people who go toschool there.
I've got two sons there rightnow, as well as professors
there.
I've spoken to multipleprofessors, none of whom, again,
would be willing to go on therecord.
but all of whom are terrified bythis.
I mean, Ian, as an outsiderlooking in, what is your

(16:24):
reaction to all of this?

SPEAKER_00 (16:26):
Yeah.
First of all, Sue, thank you forcoming on.
This is incredibly brave andcourageous of you.
I'm so sorry you find yourselfin this situation.
I'm not sure of Jim Torley, butI'm a former bishop of the
church, and I've also served onthe state presidency.
It was Elder Oaks that set meapart, and Elder Oaks that
provided some training.
And over the years, I've workedwith senior leaders, including a

(16:48):
number of general authorities,and gay rights and LGBTQ issues
have come up often.
I recall when I was a bishop,the requirement was, and I don't
think we've talked about this,Jim, you know, bishops and state
presidents across the world areexpected, required actually on
some things, to communicateinformation about members that

(17:13):
the church identifies as apotential risk or a problem or
an issue, including individualswho are gay or attracted to the
same sex.
And I It's been many years sinceI was a bishop, but I would get
calls from time to time aboutindividuals.
I think I remember...
few folks from the UK applyingand going to BYU.

(17:35):
And I got a call, I think, fromSolihull, that was the
headquarters of the church inthe UK, and asking me questions
about individuals.
Now, the interesting thing isthat I never shared any private
or confidential information thatI didn't think was necessary
with the church.
And that was something that Imade that decision on.
If it was an individual who wasa threat to other people,

(17:55):
physical or individuals who area threat to children, for
example, then that will be verydifferent.
That's information that myselfand many of the bishops would
share, and rightly so.
But when a bishop interviews anindividual, as you know,
especially if you trust thebishop, and I found a lot of

(18:17):
people trusted me, probably toomuch at times, they opened up
and they shared very private,confidential information about
their lives, including...
being attracted to the same sex.
And I always felt that was verypersonal, very private.
And on this conversationearlier, I'm looking at the BYU

(18:37):
honor code office here and theecclesiastical endorsement tab
in the website here.
And it says here, students mustobtain and maintain an active
ecclesiastical endorsement inorder to be admitted to BYU,
continue class enrollment andgraduate.
I mean, that's prettysignificant.
I mean, they've they've got asignificant hold on individuals

(19:00):
in terms of being admitted,continuing in the curriculum and
class, and even if you graduateor not.
And so bishops, I think, areprobably under pressure to
disclose information.
Sue, you talked about earlierthat the church or some of the

(19:20):
leaders in the church probablyor likely found information that
you posted on social media.
Please don't go into detailbecause I want you to be
comfortable there, but do youfeel that some of that
information could have come fromyour bishop who interviews you
Do you get interviewed everyyear to maintain your position

(19:41):
at BYU?
At BYU,

SPEAKER_02 (19:43):
yes, it's yearly.
So if you're an employee, asopposed to every other year for
a temple recommend, if you'renot a church employee.
So, no, I don't think so,because I spoke to my bishop and
talked to him about, you know,and he said, you know, I just, I
get on my dashboard, you know,church employees, a yes or a no.

(20:08):
to endorse or call us anddiscuss it.
And he said, I just hit the,yes, I endorse.
But since I was let go, we'lluse that term, even though
technically it was a non-renewalof contract, they have added to

(20:32):
the contract for anyone who is anew hire or anyone who is moving
laterally, moving up, anything.
It's a new contract, and youhave to attest that you agree
with, you support the church'sposition on marriage, family,
and gender, and you waive yourconfidentiality with your

(20:55):
bishop.

SPEAKER_00 (20:56):
Right.
Wow.
That's extraordinary.

SPEAKER_02 (20:59):
You waive your confidentiality with your
bishop.
Sexual predators are notrequired to waive their
confidentiality with the bishop.

SPEAKER_00 (21:08):
Right, right.
That's an extraordinaryrevelation right there.
But the reality is, I'veresigned from the church, as Jim
mentioned earlier, for this andmany other good reasons, I
believe.
The church does not like gaypeople.
If it could get rid of gaypeople, it sees gay people as a

(21:29):
problem.
if it could get rid of theproblem or further distance
itself, it would.
It doesn't know how to come toterms with gay individuals, and
it has no clear definedguidelines or policy.
In fact, it's very mixedmessaging.
You know, if you look at the,and you're too familiar with it
more than I am, but look at thehonor code here and some degree

(21:53):
of, well, broad definitions andgeneralizations on, standards,
what you can, what you can't doin terms of behavior.
It's not very specific to Jim'spoint earlier.
It's kind of broad, kind ofgeneral, and so is open to
interpretation by a bishop or bya leader who may arrive at a

(22:13):
different interpretation.
And then, of course, a lot ofthis is tied to the now infamous
musket fire talk that was givenby Elder Holland, in 2021.
Jim and I served with MattHolland.
I got to know Matt pretty well,and I've actually met and did a

(22:35):
little bit of work with ElderHolland when I was in Scotland
with Geoffrey Holland in regardsto him coming to the Edinburgh
Stake that I was serving at thattime.
I don't know him personallyreally that well, but his talk
has become quite infamous And hetalked about, you know, musket

(22:55):
fire and friendly fire andprotecting the family values of
the church and the doctrine ofthe church.
He said they're protecting thedoctrine of the family,
defending marriage as a union ofman and woman.
And at the same time, on the BYUwebsite, he talks about being
inclusive.
and respectful or language tothat effect for LGBTQ

(23:20):
individuals, et cetera.
I won't go into the details.
If anyone's interested, then goto the BYU website and read all
that.
So it looks to me like thechurch is paying lip service to
the concept of being inclusivetowards LGBTQ people.
But at the same time, when youstart getting specifics, You
know, you're wearing yourrainbow badge or you're talking

(23:42):
about it or you're advocatingit.
It sounds like at some pointyourself and others, of course,
you crossed their line, but youdon't know what that line is.
To

SPEAKER_02 (23:56):
that point, the lines change and they shift and
they don't inform when they'veshifted.
They just start enforcing thenew unspoken rule.
So...
When I first began teaching inthe Marriott School in 2016, and
I was really, at that point,active in Mormons Building

(24:17):
Bridges and other, you know, Iwas hosting hugging booths and
things like that at Pride, andit was really important to me to
help students who might behiding at BYU to know that there
is someone who cares and someonewho, and so I would wear a
rainbow pin at the beginning ofeach class, I did this anyway,

(24:38):
and I would introduce myself as,just a small part of my
introduction was, I'm aninformed and safe person on this
topic.
I have two gay brothers and soon.
And after a couple semesters, Ijust, I talked to the person
over my course and said, I'mdoing this, and I just want to

(25:01):
inform you in case it becomes aproblem.
I want to know I feel stronglyabout doing this, and I'm just
informing you.
I wasn't asking permission.
And he took it to the dean'soffice, not the dean herself,
but a dean, associate dean.
And it came back.

(25:21):
It's like, do this.
We need this.
Keep doing this.
And especially in 2019, after amarried school student took
their life in the building,

SPEAKER_01 (25:34):
I remember that.

SPEAKER_02 (25:35):
And, you know, we've got to be caring and inclusive
and suicide aware.
And so I was given a total greenlight.
But then it changed, but nobodytold me it changed.

SPEAKER_00 (25:52):
Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 (25:53):
And so then,

SPEAKER_00 (25:54):
yeah.
Thank you for that.
On the website here, and I justwant to quote something here, on
the honor code, on a courtoffice website.
Under frequently askedquestions, he says here very
clearly, is there a change inthe expectations for LGBTQ
students?
He says here, there are nochanges to the LGBTQ policies.

(26:16):
CES is deeply committed tohelping all of our students,
including our LGBTQ students,feel both the love and covenant
expectations of the Savior.
He goes on to say, same-sexromantic behavior has been and
continues to be contrary to theprinciples, including the CS
honor code.
LGBTQ students are a welcomedand valued part of the campus

(26:38):
community and share a commonidentity with every student as
sons and daughters of God.
All students will continue to beencouraged to live the gospel
and university collegecommitments.
So in writing, they've got thisstatement, but in reality, when
you start to advocate and try tocreate a safe place where LGBTQ
people come to the universityand feel someone is there to

(27:00):
help them, or at least they feelwelcome.
The experience for them is verydifferent then, it sounds like.

SPEAKER_02 (27:06):
Well, and there is a huge distinction between the
students and the faculty slashstaff.
So that phrase you just read,encourage them to live the
gospel, which is interpreted asif you are LGBTQ+, you must
abandon all ideas of anyromantic attachment to anyone

(27:28):
for the rest of your life,right?
So that becomes the faculty andstaff's job is to help these
students come to that commitmentand place.
So there's a different standardfor the students.
They're welcomed, they'reencouraged, you know, they're
loved in words anyway.

(27:51):
Action's another thing.
But the faculty and staff are tonever, now, since I left, never
encouraged them to live outtheir life in consonance with
their attractions.

(28:11):
And you can be fired if you dothat.

SPEAKER_01 (28:15):
But

SPEAKER_02 (28:16):
from what

SPEAKER_01 (28:17):
I understand, you

SPEAKER_02 (28:18):
weren't doing that.
I wasn't.
No, but having pride in yoursexual orientation is not
consonant with the gospelapparently now.
It was okay for a while, but nowit's not.
Now that's going beyond thescope of what they want to, of

(28:42):
what they consider loving.
It's not loving.
If God doesn't want you to dothis, it's not loving.
to wear a pride pin thatencourages you to live out a gay
relationship, let's say.

SPEAKER_00 (28:58):
Just on that, Sue, just tying to that, I'm
listening intently.
Elder Holland in his nowinfamous Musketfire talk, which
is a terrible talk, in myopinion, a very threatening,
actually.
I think it's very cloaked inundertones, for sure.
He says this.
He says that we have to becareful that love and empathy do

(29:21):
not get interpreted as condoningand advocacy.

SPEAKER_02 (29:26):
There it is.

SPEAKER_00 (29:27):
Yeah.
So, you know, for an LGBTQindividual, Jim, why would you
go and open up your life to yourbishop?
Share all your inner thoughtsand feelings about your
attraction to the same sex.
Why would he do that at the riskof the bishop disclosing that
and you potentially gettingthrown out of BYU?

(29:47):
This is going to push people toremain quiet.
I can't imagine they would feelsafe and secure in an
environment like that.
And having gone to a couple ofreally good universities in the
UK, which is much moreinclusive, I'm astonished.
And I don't fully understand howBYU can maintain its status as

(30:08):
an inclusive university.
educational facility in theglobal context.
It's extraordinary that it's gotthis standing, the status, and
yet it's not inclusive at all.
In fact, it creates anenvironment, it sounds like,
which is unsafe, hostile, andpotentially threatening.

(30:33):
Yet it's got the status in, notin the world, I don't think, but
certainly in America, Certainly,you know, people haven't heard
of BYU outside of America,mostly.
It

SPEAKER_02 (30:43):
is falling.
I mean, its reputation isfalling, I think, because of
these things.

SPEAKER_01 (30:50):
They were listed, I think, I was talking about this
actually over dinner.
They used to be something likenumber 61 in terms of their
academic reputation, accordingto U.S.
News and World Report.
That's fallen to number 109 now.
Uh, and it's different fromschool to school as well,

(31:13):
because some of these schools,BYU had a big, huge kerfuffle
over the fact that speechtherapy students were no longer
being allowed to be taught howto help transgender people.
Um, trying to think about your

SPEAKER_02 (31:32):
voices.
Yeah.
Modulate their, uh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (31:35):
Were you aware of that whole situation?

SPEAKER_02 (31:38):
Yes.
And not only were the studentsdisallowed, but the clinic, they
run a clinic for the communitythere for the students to learn.
They did at the BYU speech andlanguage therapy clinic.
And they had a number of transclients.

(31:58):
And those clients were summarilydismissed immediately.
We can't serve you anymore.
I mean, by this new policy, thepeople in the clinic, from my
understanding, were devastatedthat they had to do this.

SPEAKER_01 (32:14):
To the musket fire talk, to some degree.
What happened

SPEAKER_02 (32:20):
right after the musket fire talk?

SPEAKER_01 (32:22):
Well, in the musket fire talk, Elder Holland said,
we may lose some certifications,but were willing to do that.
The part of that talk thatreally frustrated me more than
any other part of it.
And it's interesting how ElderHolland has since responded to
the musket fire talk.

(32:43):
He acknowledged it about fiveyears after.
I guess five years is strongbecause this musket fire was...
So I'm getting my timing allwrong.
Same

SPEAKER_02 (32:52):
setting.
He gave a talk this last Augustabout...
for BYU faculty, which is wherehe gave the original talk, the
beginning of the academic schoolyear.

SPEAKER_01 (33:02):
Well, he talked about all the tears that he shed
and how he was brokenhearted byhow many people were hurt by the
talk, but still refused toapologize for the talk or take
anything back from the talk.
And the part of it that I foundto be most frustrating was when
he slapped down Matt Easton.
Oh, that was awful.

(33:25):
That was awful.
Can you talk about that for asecond?

SPEAKER_02 (33:29):
Well, in his original talk, in both talks,
yeah, he talked in veiled termsabout a gay student who was
valedictorian in his college andgave the speech and came out in
his speech in 2021 and said, hehad gone through all a whole

(33:57):
process of permissions to dothis.
He informed his Dean, heinformed his department chair
that he was going to do this.
And they all said, fine, youknow, they looked at his car.
I don't know if they looked athis copy, but my guess is they
looked at his copy and said,that's fine.
So he did every, I don't, Idon't know exactly or remember
what elder Holland said aboutit, but it was, he didn't use

(34:21):
the name, but you know, it was abit of a, sarcastic reference to
a student using, you know, thisforum where people are
celebrating and, you know, tokind of grind his own axe.
I mean, he didn't say that, butthat was the...
The word he used wascommandeered.
He commandeered, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (34:44):
Yeah.
Elder Easton had commandeeredElder Easton...
Elder Easton.
Matt Easton spoke in the 2019ceremony, and I'm trying to find
the exact quote from ElderHolland, but his complaint was
that when somebody comes up andhe commandeers a graduation

(35:07):
ceremony to do this, then it's,oh, here it is.
What might another speaker feelfree to announce the next year
until eventually anything goes?
Yeah, that

SPEAKER_02 (35:18):
was the sarcasm

SPEAKER_01 (35:19):
panel.
if we push individual licenseover institutional dignity for
very long.

SPEAKER_02 (35:27):
Implying that it was not dignified to reveal such a
thing, even though everybody isconstantly talking about their
husbands and their fiancés andtheir heterosexual
relationships, but it'sundignified to speak of your
orientation, not even arelationship, just of your
orientation.

(35:48):
even though heterosexuality isshoved down everybody's throats
constantly.

SPEAKER_01 (35:56):
If a student commandeers a graduation podium
intended to represent everyonegetting diplomas in order to
announce his personal sexualorientation, what might another
speaker feel free to announcenext year?
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (36:10):
And Matt was devastated.
I spoke to Matt, and he wasdevastated.

SPEAKER_01 (36:16):
Matt, my daughter...
My second daughter graduatedfrom BYU at the same time Matt
Easton did.
And she went to school with MattEaston and knew him.
And yeah, that was her...
She said that...
I mean, for an apostle...
I mean, the amount of power thatan apostle has, particularly
among a believing...

(36:37):
to a believing member of thechurch, for an apostle to just
slap you down that publiclywhen, in fact...
Matt Easton got permission tosay exactly what he'd said, as
you pointed out.
And he did it in the mostdignified way.
Yeah.
As far as I remember, his onlyreference was, I stand here as a

(37:00):
proud gay son of God.
And that was it.

UNKNOWN (37:05):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (37:05):
It wasn't, and I'm looking forward to getting
married to another man.
And I think the church needs toperform same-sex temple
ceremonies.
And there was none of that.
There was just theacknowledgement that he was a
gay man.
And

SPEAKER_02 (37:19):
if we're really, truly inclusive, BYU, then why
wouldn't we not celebrate?
Oh, now we know we can put ourarms around you, right?
Because you told us.
Thank you for telling us so wecan put our arms around you.

SPEAKER_01 (37:36):
Where do you see this going, Sue?
What do you think is going toend up happening?

SPEAKER_02 (37:42):
I'm not good at things like that, but, you know,
people talk.
I talk to a lot of BYU peopleoften.
And, you know, a lot of peoplesee it as a pendulum swinging
and it's going to swing back,but who knows how long it will
take and how much damage will bedone in the meantime.
Yeah.

(38:05):
I think it will swing back, butagain, in my lifetime, I don't
know.
I don't know.
Things are retrenching so deeplythat it could take quite a while
to dig back out and up.

SPEAKER_01 (38:19):
Well, that may well be true.
What I find interesting aboutthis is that this is different
from other retrenchments in thatin previous retrenchments, I
think...
that the leaders and the memberswere far more in sync than they

(38:39):
seem to be now.
Because the church, particularlyon LGBTQ issues, is sending out
such mixed messages.
Because when I was growing up inthe church, the standard was, if
you were gay, it was because youchose to be gay and you're a
wicked person, so stop being gayand then everything will be

(39:01):
fine.
And as I think loathsome as thatidea is, it has the virtue of
being logically consistent.
If being gay is a voluntarychoice and we choose our sexual
attractions, then the churchcould conceivably be justified
in withholding all of itsblessings until you make a

(39:25):
different choice.
But the church, particularlysince Proposition 8, since 2008,
And after same-sex marriage hasbecome the law of the land in
2015, the church has now, forthe first time, acknowledged,
no, you do not choose yoursexual attractions.

(39:45):
They created that website,Mormon and Gay.
It's now part of, you're notallowed to say Mormon anymore,
but the material is still on thechurch's website.
where it talked about how peopledo not choose their attractions
and also people should notexpect their attractions to
change based on sufficientrighteousness, which is a

(40:08):
180-degree shift from what I wastaught when I was a teenager.

SPEAKER_02 (40:14):
And it also has not trickled down to the local
congregations still.
There are still many people whospeak of it as a choice and It's
something that can be changed ifyou want to badly enough, and
the atonement can cureeverything.

(40:35):
Because these things are notsaid from the general conference
pulpit.

SPEAKER_01 (40:39):
That's correct.
And that's the challenge, isthat the church has made that
concession, but it's still,okay, you didn't choose to be
gay, but we're still going totreat you as if you did.
And we're still not going tooffer any kind of righteous
outlet for who it is that youare, who you never chose to be

(41:03):
this person.
This is just who you are.
And yet we're going to tell youto deny that part of you for the
rest of your life.
And hopefully after you die, youwill be transformed into an
entirely different person withentirely different attractions
who you probably wouldn't beable to recognize.
And guess what happens?

SPEAKER_02 (41:24):
People who are so devoted to the church, they want
to get to that next life and getcheered now.
And guess what they do?
Some.
Hopefully fewer, but it's beenjust horrible to watch that
happen repeatedly.
When you're in that community,part of that community, as an

(41:49):
ally, as an advocate, as amember of the community, you see
it.
more than most people do, andit's just...

SPEAKER_01 (41:58):
Can you talk a little bit more about that?
I mean, you talk about beingpart of a hugging booth.
I remember the Mama Dragons.
Yeah.
Were you working with the MamaDragons on that?
I

SPEAKER_02 (42:08):
was actually...
I did that early on through...
in 2013 and 2014 for MormonsBuilding Bridges.
So that was a little before theMama Dragons had formed.
Yeah, I mean, it was just...
Both times I did it in Provo, atthe Provo Pride.
They didn't have a parade inProvo, but they had a Pride

(42:29):
festival.
They still don't have a parade,but they have a festival.
And, yeah, just the folks whowould come up and want hugs,
just, I mean, we would end up intears so often.
It's like, really?
Mormons building bridges?
Mormons care about us?

(42:50):
What?

UNKNOWN (42:52):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (42:54):
I got my 80-something-year-old mother to
join.
She has two gay sons, you know,and she joined one year with me,
and it was transformative.
It's just, you just see, I mean,you see the pain, the suffering,

(43:16):
just the abject despair of somany people.
At that time, I hope there isn'tas much despair now because the
love is getting bigger andembracing inclusion is getting
bigger.
But you'd see that and thenyou'd see the joy of, oh, well,

(43:37):
it's so nice to know that thereare people who care and who are
trying to make a differencehere.
And then there were others whowere just like, why are you
trying to build a bridge?
But the Mormon church burnedthat bridge down.
you know, a long time ago.
There's no point in building abridge.
And that's the way I feel now,actually, to be honest.

(43:57):
And Mormons building bridges haskind of, it still exists, but
it's not as vigorous as it usedto be because most people are
like, there's no bridge.
Bridge to what?
There's nothing to bridge to.

SPEAKER_00 (44:12):
Yeah.
Sue, we talked earlier about thechurch building online and
perhaps in talks to an extent,it's quite broad and loose in
terms of its language aroundsupporting the gay community.
You also mentioned that thelines change and they're quite

(44:33):
blurred and quite obscure.
A couple of questions come tomind.
Where do you think this wentwrong for you in terms of the
termination?
Can you pinpoint something youdid?
And the second question I'vegot, if you don't mind, is What
impact has this had?
When they terminated you, whatimpact has this had on your

(44:54):
life?
If you can speak to those twoquestions.

SPEAKER_02 (44:57):
Well, the first one is I don't know because nobody
would tell me.
I can only suspect that this newecclesiastical clearance office
scrutinized my social media andfound pride flags and
expressions of...
acceptance and love andinclusion.

(45:17):
I mean, that's all I did.
I didn't do the other stuff.
I didn't do the marriageequality advocacy on my Facebook
because I knew, you know, Imean, the church was paying my
paycheck, right?
And I had to make a reasonabledecision about not speaking

(45:40):
against my employer's statedposition about something.
But I did not think I hadcrossed a line.
Now, I should qualify that andsay that I did take a risk twice
in class and say part of thecourse I was teaching included a
unit on diversity, equity, andinclusion.

(46:02):
And we called it that then, thatthose words are dirty words now
at BYU.
But that was part of the coursethat I was required to teach.
And I did say after having a gayperson come in and lead the
discussion on that part, forthat part, because I tried not

(46:24):
to act like I knew all this,because I didn't and I don't.
But I did say after theyconcluded and with their
agreement with the church'sposition, I said twice, I said,
I respectfully disagree with thechurch's position about marriage

(46:46):
equality.
And I know that that isproblematic.
I have wrestled with it.
And it's your job as youngadults to wrestle with this kind
of thing.
I know some of you do.
And I'm not gonna tell you whatto do or what to believe.
I'm just letting you know thatthis person in front of you, me,

(47:09):
has wrestled with this, and Irespectfully disagree.
And my understanding at the timewas that that was okay because
Elder Christofferson had said ina press conference that members
disagreeing was okay.

(47:31):
Now, I was an employee, so thatdoesn't mean that that applied
to me, but I took a chance.
I did.
And maybe that got into astudent evaluation or something.
I don't know.
But I looked at all my studentevaluations every semester
except the last one because Iwas informed before they became

(47:52):
available that I was beingterminated.
And I just decided not to lookat them.
I just was...
So the way it's affected me isthat was...
I am so support...
And I have chronic illness, andI was cobbling together a living
by being an adjunct and writingfor BYU Magazine.

(48:15):
And it was a scraping by kind ofliving, but it's what I could do
with my energy and other issues.
And when they did not renew mycontract, I was 64.
That was three years ago.
And I looked hard for a job.

(48:37):
Cannot work full-time.
And, you know, part-time jobsare, you know,$12 to$15 an hour,
basically.
And so instead I've beencobbling together independent
editing and writing work.
And it's been very difficult,you know, especially with AI
coming out.

(48:58):
It's just hard to get enoughwork to make a living.
And it has...
I am living below the povertyline, to be honest.
And it's been very stressful.
It has decimated my finances.
And I cannot, I have to keepworking until I'm 70 to get the

(49:20):
higher rate.
Because I have no pension, youknow, as an adjunct part-time
person at BYU.
For most of my time there, I hadno pension.
Yeah.
Anyway, it's been difficult.
It's also been freeing.
I mean, I can't deny that it'sbeen freeing to not have to
listen to, go to church andlisten to incessant meetings

(49:46):
about temples and tithing andgender and marriage.
I mean, the meetings have justturned into programs advocacy.
There's just so little aboutkindness and love and
forgiveness and the basicteachings of Jesus, which I

(50:10):
value and love and have tried tolive by.
And I must say what everythingI've done with my LGBT advocacy,
I did because of what the churchtaught me, not in spite of what
the church taught me, butbecause of what it taught me
about kindness and goodness andbeing loving and inclusive and

(50:34):
understanding.
And that's where those valuesled me.
And I don't regret any of it.

SPEAKER_01 (50:43):
That's really heartbreaking to hear.
That's the thing that's sofrustrating about this article
particularly, is that these arereal people whose lives are
being devastated.
for reasons that no one'swilling to explain.
And if you're going to be goodand you're going to be kind, at

(51:07):
least have the kindness anddecency to be transparent.
Right.
Somebody owes you anexplanation.
I mean, you've guessed, and Ithink we all agree you've likely
guessed correctly that it has todo with some kind of specific
LGBTQ advocacy on your part.

(51:28):
But I think they owe you thatexplanation, even now.
Somebody needs to come out andtake accountability for that.

SPEAKER_02 (51:36):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (51:38):
It's not going to happen.
Well, it's not going to happen.
As you talk about, though, thisis, I had sort of started this
thought, and I want to pursue ita little bit.
One of the reasons I think thependulum will swing back faster
this time is that I don't thinkthe general membership,

(52:01):
particularly the risinggeneration, are with Clark
Gilbert on this.
But we

SPEAKER_02 (52:13):
have to be clear that it's not Clark, that any
member of the 15 could stop thisif they wanted to.
They are aware.

SPEAKER_01 (52:20):
They are aware.

SPEAKER_02 (52:22):
They could.
The channel over him.
So we have to say that they aredoing it intentionally, and they
know, and this is what theywant, and he's doing what they
want, or he would not becontinuing on this path.

SPEAKER_01 (52:42):
Well, so the article talks about that a little bit,
because everything I hear aboutwhat's happening behind the
scenes, even in the Quorum ofTwelve, And among, I mean, I
don't know if there's any ofthis happening in the first

(53:03):
presidency.
I think they're fairly united.
But LGBTQ issues are one of themost divisive issues.
are the most divisive issueseven among church leadership and
that there are brethren who wantto see more inclusion and who
are pushing for more inclusion.
And they're running up againstthe sort of brick wall as there

(53:25):
are some brethren, I thinkPresident Oaks being the most
prominent, are just sort of thisbrick wall.
We're not going to see anygreater inclusion As long as
President Oaks, who's going tobecome the president of the
church fairly shortly, PresidentOaks won't tolerate it.

(53:49):
And as a result, the one thingthat the Quorum of the Twelve is
not willing to do, ever, is showany sign that there is anything
but perfect unity among theTwelve.

SPEAKER_02 (54:04):
All you have to do is listen to General Conference
carefully to know that that's

SPEAKER_01 (54:08):
not so.
Right, right.
I mean, it's very clear thatvery often they're speaking to
each other more than they'respeaking to the general
membership.
You know, you saw that in thislast conference.
Actually, it was the conferencebefore that where Elder Kieran

(54:30):
gave this really wonderful,inclusive, universalist talk.
And Elder Uchtdorf gave a talkvery similar.
And Other talks were justhardcore retrenching and just
the absolute opposite ofuniversalism.
And, you know, let's hide out inthe temples and the world is so
wicked and we need to make surethat we're...

(54:51):
I mean, you see this sort ofbattle and this sort of tension
that is bubbling under thesurface.
But the one thing that they'renot willing to do is stick their
necks out and say, I disagreewith any of my other brethren.
And I think that's one of thereasons why, sadly, we can't
expect somebody in the Quorum ofthe Twelve to break ranks and

(55:15):
come to your rescue and come tothe rescue of the other
professors that are seeing allof this.
I want to look here quickly atthe article.
Oh, well, no, but in finishingmy thought, the general
membership of the church is notthere.
The general membership of thechurch is not with Clark
Gilbert.

(55:35):
all of the polling, particularlyof young members of the church,
shows that a majority ofLatter-day Saints believe in the
legality of same-sex marriage.
That shows that somewhere aroundtwo-thirds of Latter-day Saints
between the ages of 18 and 30believe likewise.

SPEAKER_02 (55:55):
I'm rafting with my love.
Can you see my

SPEAKER_01 (55:59):
heart?
Yes, I see all the hearts on thescreen.
This is a audio podcast, but Iwant everybody to know that Sue
is throwing out hearts inresponse to this.
But this is the thing thatyou're seeing is that it's
getting harder and harder andharder for these kinds of
retrenchments to take rootbecause there are now so many

(56:23):
different avenues for people toexpress themselves and people to
find like-minded people whoagree with them, and to build
communities online as well as inperson.
It's really hard for a churchleader to sort of dictate belief

(56:44):
by fiat.

SPEAKER_02 (56:45):
Well, and there's also, I mean, you're giving me
hope, and I want to add that thehuman spirit wants to grow and
wants expansion of their being.
And what's happening with thisretrenchment is just this
calcification and this closingin of walls where the God I know

(57:09):
is just throwing walls down, youknow, just removing them and
expanding us and wants to asmuch as we'll allow.
And that human...
instinct and drive to grow andimprove and be better and be

(57:31):
more loving and rise isunstoppable.
And if, you know, a culture atBYU is going to try to shut that
down, which is, I think, what isactually happening.

(57:52):
You know, inquiry is notwelcome.
open, robust discussion.
I mean, we've all had the thrillof being in a room where people
are openly giving their real,true thoughts, even if they're
not acceptable.
There's something that's just soenlivening and enlightening

(58:16):
about that.
And if that's not happening atBYU because the professors are
scared to open those doors...
And they have good reason to.
It's their livelihood, right?
It just can't sustain it.
It won't be sustained.
It's not sustainable.
I

SPEAKER_00 (58:34):
completely, I concur with that completely.
Gay rights has become a civilrights issue.
Yeah.
And the church in one breathrecognizes that, you know, by
accepting certain laws andlegislation, you know, enacted
by Utah and other states aroundthe US and around the world to
some extent.

(58:54):
The church is, by the way, isvery inactive on these issues
outside of America.
Mostly, in my opinion, itdoesn't really get involved in
this stuff in UK or Europe.
It's mostly, mostly notentirely, you know, American
centric.
You know, the church is on thewrong side of history here.

(59:15):
It's on the wrong side ofhistory on polygamy.
It's on the wrong side ofhistory, the race of the
priesthood.
These are complete, absolutedisasters for the church.
These are some of the key majorproblems that the church is
wrestling with.
We just did a podcast onpolygamy recently.
Race of the priesthood, and ofcourse...

(59:37):
Yeah, that was the last podcastthat we did.
You know, these are some of thebig issues.
And of course, LGBTQ rights arecivil rights now, and the church
is lost.
It has no leadership on this, noposition on this.
I think it likes to hide behindobscurity and allows this
confusion to happen because Itdoesn't know how to respond.

(59:59):
It doesn't know when to respond.
And it only responds, you know,under media pressure when
something comes to light.
Even then, there's no, you know,Jim mentioned this earlier,
there's very little or noapology.
There's no apology overpolygamy.
There's no apology over thedamage that that caused women
that we're talking about.
There's no apology on...
I mean, what an awful legacy.

(01:00:20):
No apology.
Elder Oaks, I think he said, andJim's quoted him a few times, he
doesn't...
accept or receive apologies orgive apologies.
Is that right,

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:30):
Jim?
It is the policy of the churchnot to seek apologies or to give
them.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:36):
Right.
So they have it.
And of course, there's noapology forthcoming for being on
the wrong side of history forLGBTQ.
It likes to hide behindobscurity.
It's weakness.
It's shallow.
It's cowardly.
You know, I can't imagine...
And it's distrustful.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:52):
It's distrustful of its members because they will
not...
engage their members on theseissues and explain themselves.
There's no trust.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:04):
There's no trust.
Yeah.
And there's no specifics.
There's no clear, definedposition on things.
So then people guess, right?
The leadership is dinosaurleadership.
It's antiquated, it's backwardthinking, it's not keeping up
with the more inclusive thinkingand loving, increasing loving

(01:01:29):
population of the membershipwhere people, you know, members
for the most part are very kindand considerate and thoughtful
and respectful and are committedto creating a safe, inclusive
experience and space forindividuals.
This leadership is You know,it's just hiding behind

(01:01:51):
obscurity.
The thing is, you know, wetalked about damage to and the
hurt to women and wives,polygamy.
Could you speak just for amoment on what you see as the
impact, the personal impact,Sue, on, you know, individuals,
LGBTQ individuals and how thisis impacting them on a personal

(01:02:15):
level?
Could you speak to that fromyour perspective?

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:18):
Well, Just from what I've observed, and I have two
gay brothers.
One has died.
Both of them, I consider theirlives destroyed by the church
and by the messages they gotwhen they were young that that
orientation is depraved and, youknow, filthy.

(01:02:43):
And, you know, they internalizedthat.
And one...
Died at 29.
He did not take his life, but hehad attempted a few weeks, a few
months before.
And then he died for reasonsunrelated.
And the other one is deep inaddiction since he was about 15,

(01:03:05):
16 and just can't cope.
And so these are examples.
I think addiction is one waythat a lot of people LGBT
members of our church and of allvery conservative churches, they

(01:03:25):
suffer terribly because theyfeel defective.
And the kids, the teenagers whocome out, by the time they come
out and say, I don't want to goto church anymore, the damage
has already been done.
They've been absorbing it andtrying to figure it out and
knowing they can't talk aboutit.

(01:03:46):
And then when they finally comeout, it's just like they're done
with the church.
They are done.
They cannot survive in a systemthat denies their human, their
nature.
It's just, I have seen despair.
I have seen suicide.

(01:04:08):
I have seen people go from thatto acknowledging their and
embracing their nature andthriving.
It's like a light goes on.
Oh, I can, I don't have to livethis way, you know, just with

(01:04:30):
this straight jacket, you know,and this white knuckle living
through life alone and notaccepted and rejected.
And they can go from that to, Iam, going to embrace who I am.
That's where the pride comesfrom.
People say, well, when are wegoing to have a pride parade for
heterosexual people?

(01:04:51):
Well, you don't need one.
I'm tempted to use the F word,but I'm just stuck.
But anyway, yeah, they just, Ihave seen this happen repeatedly
where they just, they thrive andthe church's teachings about the
by their fruits.
I mean, why don't they look atthis and see that the fruits are

(01:05:13):
good of living in consonancewith your attractions and your,
you know, your, when I saynature, I don't have any belief
anymore really about what's, youknow, what's in the next life
follows from what's here,anything like that.
So I can't speak to that part,but I, I just, I, get a rush

(01:05:42):
when I see people whoacknowledge and embrace who they
are and then thrive.
And it's a beautiful thing tosee.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:51):
Well, listening to you and listening to how
passionate you are about this,it actually gives me hope
because I think there are stillpeople on the inside of the
church and even in churchleadership who that share that
same kind of passion and thatrecognize the reality here.

(01:06:15):
And the rising generation isrecognizing the reality here.
And when I try to find hope,when I get frustrated by all of
this, I remember the fact thatthe most fiery speeches by
church leaders that we wouldnever abandon the principle of

(01:06:35):
plural marriage and we willnever back down from federal
interference and we will...
I just finished reading AmericanZion by Benjamin Park.
Marvelous, marvelous book.
I would love to get Dr.
Park on this podcast too, Ian.
We need to reach out to him.
But he points...

(01:06:56):
He talks about that and pointsthat out.
And...
The most fiery speeches aboutpolygamy happened right before
the manifesto.
That, you know, all of thepeople who can see the future
and see the writing on the wall,as the world presses down on

(01:07:16):
them, that's when they flash outthe most.
And I am hopeful that these kindof, because this kind of
retrenchment, it's sort of aschizophrenic retrenchment.
Because it's happening at BYU,and yet you're seeing, when
Aaron Sherinian was hired by thechurch, he was hired and people

(01:07:40):
lost their minds over the factthat he had a social media
presence that was very muchpro-LGBTQ.
And he is now the head PRdirector of the church.
And I have since asked him, haveyou gotten in any trouble for
any of that?
And he said, not at all.
which demonstrates that thechurch, at least some people in

(01:08:03):
church leadership, recognizethat you can be an ally for
LGBTQ people and still beconsidered a faithful member of
the church.
Well, how come he gets to keephis job?
Well, that's the schizophreniahere.
Yeah, it's the schizophrenia.
Because BYU, and particularlyClark Gilbert, I think, here,

(01:08:24):
have sort of created their ownlittle fiefdom here And, you
know, you read this article andClark Gilbert lists the
different kinds of professorsthat need to be gotten rid of.
I think it's remarkable thatPeggy Fletcher Stack went in
there and said at a dinner toprominent church leaders and
thought, great investigativejournalism here.

(01:08:45):
Yep.
We're able to capture that.
But you have people who say, noton my watch.
You know, we're going to we'regoing to do this.
And I'm reminded of the words ofJoseph Smith, as well might man
stretch forth his puny arm tostop the Mississippi River from

(01:09:05):
flowing, or whatever it is.
You know, will we be able tokeep the Lord from pouring down
knowledge on the heads of theLatter-day Saints?
And I think you have a lot ofpeople stretching out their arm
to try to stop the kind ofinclusion that I believe is
absolutely inevitable.
Whether you like it or not, thechurch is not

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:28):
good.
It's good.
It's necessary.
It's what Jesus would do, in myopinion.
Oh, no,

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:37):
and I agree with you.
And I get criticized becauseit's like, well, you're telling
the church what to do.
And it's like, I have never, Imean, I know where that line is,
too, even as a member of thechurch.
not a BYU faculty member, but Iam a member of the Tabernacle
Choir, I have never and neverwill say the church needs to do

(01:10:00):
this.
The church needs to performsame-sex ceilings.
No, I will.
Well, and I understand that, andyou're not operating within the
same lines that I am at the

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:12):
moment.
I know, I know.

SPEAKER_01 (01:10:14):
But what I will say is that I welcome further light
and knowledge.
We are a church that is built ona principle of continuing
revelation.
We should expect and yearn forfurther light and knowledge.
And I will leave it to the Lordto define what that light and
knowledge looks like.

(01:10:35):
And I am confident, as you are,that Jesus and our Heavenly
Father have infinite love forall of their children.
including their LGBTQ children,who we now acknowledge are made
that way by their HeavenlyFather.
They do not sort of choose thissort of, to use Spencer W.

(01:10:59):
Kimball's word, perversion, butrather this is who they are.
And if this is who God made themto be, then I believe God must
have some kind of righteouspurpose for that.
The idea that this is who I madeyou, and yet there is absolutely
no way I want you to expressthat.
I want you to be somebody elseother than who I made you.

(01:11:21):
And the reason why I think therising generation won't stand
for it, too, is that I was told,and I believed, I genuinely
believe this, I was told overand over again, if same-sex
marriage were to become legal,then it would erode the
foundations of civilization.

(01:11:42):
that traditional marriage wouldbe under threat.
President Oaks is on record assaying that if this would
happen, it would end the humanrace within a generation.

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:52):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (01:11:53):
Because apparently everybody will somehow choose to
be gay, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:57):
Well, and the truth is that heterosexuals ruined
marriage long ago.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:01):
Well, we've had some problems with marriage in the
heterosexual community.
There's no doubt about that.
But what's happened now is thatall of that scaremongering now
looks ridiculous.
Now that same-sex marriage islegal and the sky has not fallen
and heterosexuality has notdisappeared and doesn't seem to

(01:12:25):
be in any danger ofdisappearing.
So that kind of scaremongeringdoesn't work on my children.
You can't tell them, geez,same-sex marriage is going to
destroy the foundations ofcivilization.
Well, I go, you know, I wake upin the morning and
civilization's still there.
And it's just the church, it'snot even a question of what it

(01:12:49):
wants to or doesn't want to do.
It's a question of the, it's areality that they no longer have
any choice.
Reality is pressing down andeventually, you know, we can't,
pick up one side of the stickand not pick up the other side
of the stick.
We can't say, okay, you didn'tchoose to be gay.
Okay, we were wrong when we saidyou could pray the gay away.

(01:13:12):
Okay, all that.
But all of the policies thatapplied back then when we
thought all those things thatare not true, those policies
still apply.
We either have to go full onback into the Boyd K.
Packer, Spencer W.
Kimball, miracle of forgivenessdays, Or we have to accept the
reality and go forward toinclusion.

(01:13:34):
And I just don't think thechurch has any choice.
I don't know when it willhappen.
I don't know how it will happen.
But I am increasingly confidentthat it will happen because it
has to

SPEAKER_02 (01:13:45):
happen.
Can I say that prophets, seers,and revelators, their challenge
is to transcend theirconditioning to hear the voice
of God.
And they're not doing that rightnow.
They are not transcending theirconditioning.

(01:14:07):
They're letting theirconditioning keep the church
within these walls that areanti-expansion of the heart and
the goodness and theinclusiveness that the church
could have and could be and willbe, as you're saying.

(01:14:32):
you know, they could do itsooner if they would let their
prophetic abilities help themtranscend and ask the questions
and, you know, that will lead totranscending their conditioning.
And I'm, you know, I'm sure I'mnot transcending my conditioning

(01:14:54):
in many ways, but I'm not aprophet and I don't say I speak
for God.
So...

SPEAKER_01 (01:15:01):
Ian, are you transcending your conditioning?

SPEAKER_00 (01:15:03):
From the church perspective, I think I'm going
to outer darkness.
I'm worse because, you know, foran apostate, somebody who the
church thinks is abandoned, youknow, which I haven't really.
I've not abandoned the universalprinciples of love and Christ
and kindness and service.
By any means, I feel much moretranscendent, if you like, in

(01:15:26):
regards to my life and thoseprinciples and values and
standards, etc.
I'm less judgmental.
I'm much more inclusive.
I feel humbled to be on theright side of history, Sue, like
you are.
And I believe you are, Jim.
You know, you have your ownperspectives.
I think the church is very muchon the wrong side of history.

(01:15:47):
And I think it will change.
They can't stop that greatforce, you know, coming.
You can't stop that.
It will change.
The pace of change is...
Frustrating, for sure, but Ibelieve it will happen.
No, I think the church, from myperspective, the church has

(01:16:08):
disowned me, really.
No one has any contact with me.
I think the church sees me as acomplete apostate.
And I'm okay with that.
Yeah, you mentioned earlier,Sue, that you feel there's a
sense of liberation, of freedom.
And I feel, and I'm sure youfeel the same way, Sue,
authentic.

(01:16:28):
I could be me.
I don't have to play these sillygames and believe stuff and
accept stuff that I think iscomplete bullshit, frankly.
So, you know, I could be me.
I could think freely.
You know, when I went to church,it wasn't safe.
I had questions.
I was on the state presidency,by the way.
And so here I am, you know, thispesky council on the state
presidency, asking thesedifficult questions and was shut

(01:16:51):
down.
And it was very frustrating andI didn't feel safe.
And I felt quite...
It was quite an intimidatingexperience for me.
But now I feel liberated, free.
I can be me.
I can think and feel.
I can do what I think is right.
And I think the key, I thinkthat the, in Elder Oaks, when he
interviewed me and the othercounselors, he asked us, you

(01:17:15):
know, how do we want to beremembered?
So this is when we were calledinto a new state presidency.
Of course, he was speaking as,you know, in the context of
coming into the presidency,serving, committing to the, you
know, to the church andleadership, etc.
He was speaking about how wewant to be remembered as a
presidency.
But I now look at that and Ithink, well, how do I want to be
remembered?

(01:17:35):
You know, people around me,people that love me, respect me,
hopefully.
And I want to be remembered fordoing the right thing and being
inclusive and kind and lovingand doing what Christ would do.
You said earlier that Christwouldn't behave like this, that
the brethren are not, in certainthings, Not everything.
I think they're in tune on lotsof things.

(01:17:56):
I think they do a lot of good.
I really do.
We say on the podcast, thechurch, when it gets it right,
is amazing.
There's no organization outthere that has the power and the
resources and the impact whenthe church is doing the right
thing and blessing, you know,millions of lives across the

(01:18:18):
world.
When it gets it wrong, like ithas in this case, I think it's
very lost and it's very confusedand it lacks leadership and
they're not going to the Lordwith these questions.
I think if Christ was here, itwould be, you know, I can't
speak for him, of course, but Ithink he'd have a different
position.
He's kind, loving, andinclusive.

(01:18:39):
He wouldn't behave like this,for sure.
I know we've got to close here,but I just want to express my
gratitude to you.
I know we've just met on thispodcast conversation, but How
incredibly humbling it is tomeet with you.
And I'm so sorry for the hurtand pain that you're going
through and the impact this hashad on your life.

(01:19:02):
I'm so sorry about that.
But I want to commend you, if Imay, for your courage and your
bravery and your integrity.
Because that's how we'reremembered.
We're remembered, Jim, for ourintegrity.
We're remembered for how we makepeople feel.
And we're remembered forbuilding people up.
and supporting and lovingpeople.

(01:19:22):
That's how we're remembered.
And so that is my response toElder Oaks is how do I want to
be remembered?
Well, that's how I want to beremembered for doing the right
thing, being on the right sideof history and being kind and
loving and inclusive.
That's how I want to beremembered.
Elder Oaks didn't for one secondthink that I would take this

(01:19:45):
direction in my life.
He was speaking for the New YorkState Presidency.
How would he be rememberedthere?
But I am hopeful.
I agree with you both.
If you are saying that thechurch will change, I think it
will change.
It continues to change.
Will it change under pressure?
Yeah.
Will it take lots of other mediapressure and other people like

(01:20:06):
those talking on the podcast tochange it?
Yeah.
And that's great.
Whatever change, whateverdirection that change comes
from, that's probably notimportant.
Or it might be.
I just believe it will change.
It will happen.
And I think that maybe Oaks andmaybe others maybe have to lead
this planet before those changestake place.

(01:20:29):
But I believe it will happen.
And more progressive, moderatethinking will come through in
the next 5, 10 years.
And eventually, we'll have amore inclusive curriculum for
LGBTQ people and people,hopefully, you know, who are...
naturally and want to bethemselves naturally can go to

(01:20:49):
BYU and talk openly about whothey are and their identity and
feel safe and secure and lovedand included and faculty and
teachers and lecturers will feelthe same way.
I'm still astonished that thechurch maintained its status.
I think it's at 109 right now,but I just think it will

(01:21:10):
continue to slip.
And at some point, This willreflect in the status of the
BYU, the numbers, and the churchwill be forced, kicking and
screaming, whatever it takes, tobe much more inclusive.
So they're my, I know we'realmost out of time here, but
they're my concluding thoughts.
But thank you so much for comingonto the podcast and sharing

(01:21:31):
your thoughts, being so braveand so courageous, for being so
authentic and having so muchintegrity.
Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 (01:21:39):
Thank you, Ian.
Thank you for those kind words.
They mean a lot.

SPEAKER_01 (01:21:46):
Well, I'm going to summarize my little position
here.
And then, Sue, I want to giveyou the last word.
And I want you to be able to sayanything that you wanted to say
but may not have been able tosay so far.
But I want to join Ian incommending you for being willing
to share all this with us.

(01:22:07):
I really appreciate theopportunity to visit with you.
I have admired you for manyyears and have known you to be a
person of integrity, and I'mvery grateful that you are
standing up for what you believehere.
As I sit and listen to both ofyou talk about where the church

(01:22:28):
is in terms of what side ofhistory the church is on, I
recognize very much that I amthe only one of the three of us
that actively continues toparticipate in the church.
And I recognize that, you know,I have reached a place where I

(01:22:48):
recognize that church leaders, Ireally have confidence that
church leaders are good people,are well-intentioned people.
And but they're also people withthe same kind of weaknesses that
I have and that anybody elsehas.
And they are people who, as muchas we want them to be able to

(01:23:09):
transcend their own biases andtheir own backgrounds and all of
the things that would benecessary for men of the 90 and
100-year-old men to sort oftranscend a lifetime of what
they have believed and beentaught, I recognize that all of

(01:23:30):
us continue to have agency.
All of us continue to strugglewith that.
And that really is really at theheart of the mortal struggle is
to be able to rise to thedivine, even as we have to
transcend all of these kinds ofthings.
So in saying that, I try to givechurch leaders as much grace as

(01:23:52):
I hope they will give me, as Ihope the Lord will give me.
and try to have patience withthem as they have patience with
me.
But like Ian, I would like tosee changes come far more
quickly, but I also haveconfidence that because these
are good men, because the handof God remains in this church,

(01:24:15):
that eventually we're going toget where we need to be.
I don't know how long it willtake.
I do know that, at least in mypersonal experience, The Lord
wants me to stay for as long asit takes.
And if it doesn't happen in mylifetime, that's something that
I have come to accept andrecognize that this is still

(01:24:36):
where the Lord wants me.
And I also recognize that otherpeople do not feel that same
kind of call to stay and otherpeople feel called to leave.
And it is not my place todetermine anybody else's
journey.
or to cast any judgment onanybody else's journey.

(01:24:56):
And I certainly recognize thatmany good, decent, wonderful
people feel they can no longerstay because of these kinds of
issues, because the church isnot moving as quickly as it
needs to.
And I am just grateful thatpeople of integrity in and out

(01:25:17):
of the church are continuing totalk about these sorts of things
and raise them.
And I think, Sue, particularlyyour voice is just so essential
in this conversation.
And I am so grateful to you forbeing willing to participate in
it.
So with that, can you give usyour final words of wisdom?

SPEAKER_02 (01:25:37):
Yeah, I want to go back to the article for a
moment.
And that is, you know, TaylorPetrie or Petrie, I'm not sure
how he says it, You know, hetalks about this retrenchment as
being a, and I have the articlein front of me, it's a classic
purity campaign.
And purity campaigns are alwaysdangerous.

(01:25:57):
He says they brood outundesirable people and ideas in
order to create homogeneity, butthey create division, stifle
thought, and prioritize fearover faith.
And I think he just says itbeautifully, and I...
hate that this is happening, butthis is what is happening in my

(01:26:20):
view.
And then at the end of thearticle, Peggy Fletcher Stack,
the writer, the journalist, thePulitzer Prize winner, the
wonderful, incrediblejournalist, she says the problem
BYU faculty members areconfronting is what makes

(01:26:42):
someone happy?
a true disciple and who gets todecide?
And my answer is, for me, I getto decide what makes me a true
disciple.
And for me, that is, I am a truedisciple of trying to be my best
to be loving and caring andinclusive, all the words that

(01:27:03):
Ian said.
And I don't know any other way.
That's the way forward.

SPEAKER_01 (01:27:16):
Amen.
And thank you for sharing thatwith us.
Again, I can't thank you enoughfor coming on, for sharing this
with us.
Hopefully this discussion willsoften some hearts.
Hopefully this discussion willshed some light on the black
box.
And hopefully we will see changesooner rather than later.

(01:27:40):
So thank you very much.
Ian, thank you very much.
Any final words?
Any parting thoughts, Ian?

SPEAKER_00 (01:27:46):
Just want to thank you, Jim, and a special thank
you to you, Sue.

SPEAKER_02 (01:27:49):
Thank you to both of you, too.
Thank you, Ian and Mr.
Bennett.

SPEAKER_01 (01:27:57):
Thank you.
And thank you to all of youlistening.
And we look forward to seeingyou next time on Inside Out.
Inside Out.