A Conversation with Lance Jackson

Ian and Jim are joined by Lance Jackson, a champion hammer thrower, an accomplished opera singer, and a former bishop who discusses his experiences both in and out of the Church. 

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_03 (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Inside

(00:18):
Out, the only podcast on theearth that delivers a pragmatic
and balanced view of the Churchof Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints, also known as the MormonFaith.
I'm your co-host, Ian Mooks, andas always, I'm joined by the
polymathic Jim Bennett.

SPEAKER_00 (00:36):
Hello, Jim.

SPEAKER_03 (00:38):
Hello.
How are you, sir?
Really well, really well.
I described you as polymathic.

SPEAKER_02 (00:43):
Yes, indeed.
I think that that's probablymore generous than you need to
be.
You know what it means?
I do.
It means I'm good at a wholebunch of different things.

SPEAKER_03 (00:54):
It's very good.
It's very good.
I've been trying to come up withlong words to describe you and
ones that might even confuseyou, but I'm failing.
I'm not doing a very good job.
It seems like you have acommand, a knowledge of every
word in the English language.

SPEAKER_02 (01:11):
Well, that's typical of polymaths, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 (01:14):
That's true,

SPEAKER_02 (01:14):
actually.
It

SPEAKER_03 (01:16):
is characterized by knowledge of many subjects.
I think you know every word andI can't you out.
But anyway, welcome, Jim.
It's always wanted to have youand I do this together.
So Jim, as you know, and ourlisteners know, we've had some
amazing guests on our podcastprogram over the last two years,

(01:37):
and we're coming up on thetwo-year anniversary.
And for our listeners, we'll bedoing a special episode on the
history and some of the keyinteresting conversations
conversation we've had with, Iguess, on Inside Out and some of
the subjects that we've covered.
And today, we have yet anotheramazing guest, all the way from

(01:59):
England.
And I have the honor andprivilege of introducing one of
the finest Yorkshire men on theplanet.
And all the way from England, avery warm welcome to Lance
Jackson.
Hello, Lance.

SPEAKER_01 (02:11):
Hello, Ian.
Thank you very much for yourwarm introduction.

SPEAKER_03 (02:15):
That's okay.
It's an honor I wanted to haveyou.
It really is.
And I love your accent.
And my friends over there tellme that I've lost my accent a
little bit.

SPEAKER_01 (02:24):
You appear to have done, Ian.
I

SPEAKER_03 (02:25):
appear to have done.
So if you could help me, becauseyou and I are from the same
area, if you could help me getmy accent back, that would be
wonderful.
And are you in Birmingham

SPEAKER_01 (02:34):
right now, Lance?
Yeah, close by.
I've just been explaining toyou.
We're about seven miles awayfrom Birmingham.
We're in a place called Dudley.

SPEAKER_03 (02:40):
Okay,

SPEAKER_01 (02:42):
yes.
Famous for Sir Lenny Henry.
Yes, yes.
Sam Allardyce, and very littleelse.

SPEAKER_03 (02:49):
Yes, I know these names.
Jim and some of our listeners inthe US might, and Canada
elsewhere might not know thesenames, but Lenny Henry, for
sure, he's an amazing comedian.
Are you quite close to where thechurch has announced the temple
location being built inBirmingham?

SPEAKER_01 (03:07):
Oh, I don't know.
I didn't know they had it.

SPEAKER_03 (03:10):
Oh, yeah, they announced a new temple to be
built in Birmingham.
It seems like they're going...
out all the way to get you backinto the church.

SPEAKER_01 (03:19):
Right.
So when's that scheduled tobegin, Ian?

SPEAKER_03 (03:28):
Well, the church, for years now, including the
last conference recently, was itlast weekend or so, have been
announcing a whole slew of newtemples built all around the
world.
They announced a new temple forBirmingham, where you are, and
they've announced a temple inEdinburgh.
Right.
So there are two new templesbeing built in the British
Isles.
I don't know the dates.

(03:50):
I think they've got a place anda date now for the Birmingham
temple.
So you might want to Googlethat.
It's interesting.
That's got to be within astone's throw, I think, from
where you are.
I think it's actually in, theycall it Royal Sutton Caulfield.

SPEAKER_01 (04:04):
Oh, right.
Yeah.
Well, we know where that is.
Yeah.
And in fact, that's where mymission officers used to be.
Right.
Because I served in this area.

SPEAKER_03 (04:13):
You served in

SPEAKER_01 (04:14):
Birmingham.
In Birmingham Mission, yeah.
So that's where the officersused to be.
And the first area that I servedin, in Handsworth, that was the
first Mormon chapel in the UK.

UNKNOWN (04:28):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (04:29):
So that was their claim to fame from there.

SPEAKER_03 (04:32):
Okay.
I didn't know that.
I didn't know that.
I'm just going to give a littlebit of a minute, just an intro
as well, a bit of context to it.
And then I want to get into ourconversation and talk about some
of the items that you and Italked about as we prepared for
this conversation.
And so for our listeners, I'veknown Lance, oh my goodness,
I've known you since 1988.

(04:53):
when I joined the church inPontefract.
And as you know, the Carltonfamily took me in.
I was homeless.
They took me in.
And I actually had Heidi'sbedroom We had Andreas and
Martin, as you know.
You know these people.
Jim, Lance knows these peoplevery well.

(05:14):
And so I started attending theWakefield Ward.
And without trying to embarrassyou, and I'll try to make this
part of the intro really short,you were the person of everyone
that I looked up to.
And the reason why is that whenI, at that time, you know, in
the early, mid-80s, you were...

(05:37):
an example of somebody who waspreparing to serve a mission it
was discussed a lot in the wardi think uh colin calton was the
bishop he was i think david waswas he the bishop when you left
wakefield for your mission

SPEAKER_01 (05:53):
calling yeah yes he was

SPEAKER_03 (05:55):
yeah so he will he will so i so jim i stayed with
colin calton i was lived withthe caltons for a number of
years You know, this family isnear and dear to me, and he was
the bishop at the time.
And Lance was in the WakefieldWard, Huddersfield Stake,
preparing to go on a mission.
And wonderful.
You were a little bit older, Ithink, coming into the church,

(06:17):
if I'm not mistaken.
I

SPEAKER_01 (06:19):
was 23.

SPEAKER_03 (06:20):
You were 23, so slightly older than going on a
mission than probably what othermissionaries were going on.
But you were served as anexample, as someone to follow.
I remember having lessons, andyour example was...
mentioned many times in thelessons as i was you know in the
youth at that time and iremember you preparing to go to
mission and then i remembergoing to the wakefield bus

(06:43):
station there's a handful ofpeople and i saw you off yeah
and that was real that wasreally important to me and i
remember waving you on that busyou're heading to birmingham and
i remember that i i want to dowhat you what you did.
I wanted to serve a mission.
I decided to serve a missionanyhow, but I wanted to do it
the way you did.
Right.
And I also remember that youwere, and help me on this, you

(07:04):
were preparing to, you weretrying to get onto the Olympic
team for hammer throwing.
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (07:14):
Well, let me clarify all of this then.
So, yeah, I was, the nationalcoach, the national hammer
coach, Max Jones, there were agroup of about five of us who
were sort of on the periphery ofthe national squad.
And so he used to come throughonce a week and we used to train
at Clackheaton because that wasthe nearest place with some good

(07:37):
hammer throwing facilities.
And so me and some other guyshad been invited to do that.
And one of the lads that wasthere, He was the youngest of
us.
He's called Dave Smith.
And he went on to have a really,really good career as a hammer

(07:59):
thrower.
I was always a better powerlifter than I was a hammer
thrower.
And in 1982, so this had beenthe first year I was in the
church, I won the YorkshireNorth East Divisional
Powerlifting Championships.
That was at Huddersfield, Ithink, yeah.
So, yeah, that was– and it'saccurate to say that, you know,

(08:25):
I was training another nationalcoach and I was part of that, I
suppose, small elite littlegroup there.
Right.
But just to clarify, I mean, theHammer is kind of a Cinderella
event, really, in athletics.
And it's been dominatedthroughout by Eastern European

(08:46):
athletes, particularly– russianor the the soviet union as it
was then and east germany thatall the best throws came out
there although some good throwscame out of west germany but for
the reason i'm telling you thisis because the qualifying
distance for a country to sendan athlete to at that time to

(09:07):
the olympics the qualifyingdistance was 72 meters And I
don't think there was anybody inBritain at that time who could
throw 72 metres.
So that's the perspective of it.
Yes, I was training under thenational coach.
Yes, I did want to go to theOlympics.
But that distance...

(09:29):
And David, David Smith, who I'vejust mentioned, he won the
Commonwealth title in...
1982.
I'd just got on my mission and Iwas in my first area.
So he won that.
He won that, didn't he?
And I don't think David evenqualified for the 84 Olympics.
Because he wasn't throwing farenough.

(09:49):
I don't think we sensed athrower then.
He competed in the 88 Olympics,but not then.
So that's the background tothat.
So I think a lot of things havebeen sort of, had a little bit
of journalistic licensing, shallwe say, from people other than
myself who've related thisstory.

(10:11):
But that was the, yeah, andobviously I gave up because I
won the divisionals in February82 and it was on a Sunday and it
was the first time I'd evermissed church.
And I felt so guilty that I wentback a week after and said, I

(10:31):
want to put my mission papersin.
So that's how that worked outfor me.

SPEAKER_03 (10:36):
That's interesting.
And just onto that last point,the person who is partly
responsible for developing thatstory is none other than
President Thomas S.
Monson.
I know.
That

SPEAKER_01 (10:48):
wasn't a unique club.
Neal A.
Maxwell as well and quite a fewother general authorities told
that story.
with varying degrees ofaccuracy.
Right.
But yeah, yeah, it did come.
It used to be, to be honest, itwas a kind of a source of
embarrassment at some points,you know, because, I mean,

(11:09):
people, when somebody makes astatement, so when Thomas Monson
says this, you know, this guywas a cert to go to the Olympics
and all this, that's just nottrue.
But it sounds like I've said itto him.
Do you know what I mean?
It sounds like that's come frommy mouth and it never did.

SPEAKER_03 (11:25):
Well, that's another interesting part of a
conversation, Jim, for sure.
Because in President Monson'stalk, and I think it was in
April 2012 General Conference,President Monson talked about
this inspiring story.
And I heard this talk and Iimmediately thought, Mike,
that's Lance Jackson.
And I told whoever was next toit, that's Lance.
I know Lance.

(11:45):
I'm now famous through Lance,right?
In this talk, President Monsonsaid, you know, talking about
this inspiring story about atalented hammer thrower, an
Olympian with aspirations tocompete in the Olympics.
And he made this significantdecision to interrupt his
athletic pursuit to serve afull-time mission for the
church.
And then he highlighted thesacrifice and the service of

(12:06):
this amazing individual.
I'm like, That's Lance Jackson.
That's Lance.
I'm like, everybody is Lance.
So that's extraordinary.
So I just wanted to kind ofhighlight that because you are–
You know, for a lot of people,you know, back then, certainly,
you know, Martin and many othersand Eddie, all these guys and

(12:26):
Keith and these people that youknow, you were the first person
to lead us all by example toserve a mission.
So, and I want to thank you forthat.
You've always been anextraordinary individual and
I've always looked up to you andstill do.
So as we get into this, whatwe'd like to do, and obviously
we want to get Jim's commentsand thoughts input as well.

(12:46):
I'm really looking forward tothis conversation.
If you can give us a backgroundas to your, you know, how you
joined the church.
You mentioned you joined in 82,same year as I did.
What was that experience like?
You know, I think the missionhas taught you, you came into
the church, you then participatein the church with this sort of
mission.
Share a bit of experience onthat.
Um, you, um, you then came homeand just tell us a bit of a bit

(13:08):
of a journey in terms of whathappened and, and then what
happened in regards to anydiscoveries that you made and
any changes, you know, did youstay in the church?
Did you leave the church?
And then, you know, goingforward from there, we'll talk
about where you are now and, andyour perspective on life.
So what.
What's your backstory in termsof the church?

SPEAKER_01 (13:28):
Right, well, I grew up in the Roman Catholic
religion.
I was brought up by mygrandparents, and my granddad
used to go to Mass basicallyevery Sunday.
So from being a little kid, Iused to go out to Mass with him.
And I used to tell my children,if they got bored at church,
when I was their age, I had tosit through a Mass in Latin.

(13:49):
So no sympathy from my endwhatsoever.
And I didn't realize at thetime, Ian, but my granddad was
excommunicated from the RomanCatholic Church because he'd
married my grandmother, who wasa divorcee, and she had five
children.
And they lived together.

(14:09):
Divorces used to take ages tocome through then.
So...
he met her in 1938 and theyweren't able to get married from
her divorce didn't come throughuntil 1952 so but he'd been
excommunicated I didn't realisethat but I knew that he didn't

(14:30):
take communion and he didn'tattend confession and he died
when I was 16 so he died in 1973and On his deathbed, he was able
to have his confession heard andhe was given the Roman Catholic

(14:54):
equivalent of sacrament.
And I remember thinking when Iheard that news, I thought,
well, if it was right to denyhim those things throughout his
life, then why was it suddenlyappropriate to give them to him
just because he was dying?

(15:15):
And so I became quitedisillusioned then, I suppose,
with that.
And although I wouldn't havearticulated it in this way at
the time, I knew the CatholicChurch couldn't be true.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (15:31):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (15:32):
So...
I would have always classedmyself as a believer in God
during that period, but I didn'thave any religious leanings.
If anybody asked me whatreligion I was, I'd say
Catholic, but I didn't have anyreal religious leanings.

(15:52):
I didn't go out to church oranything like that.
So in 1981, now that we'retalking, I'd been out one night,
Thursday night, and I stayed ata friend's house.
And then I was walking home.
I was walking through town inWakefield.
Do you remember where C&A usedto be?

(16:14):
What's it called again?
C&A.
I

SPEAKER_03 (16:16):
remember.
Yeah, just top of Westgate.

SPEAKER_01 (16:18):
Yeah, that's it, mate.
Yeah.
So there's these three guys.
They were a threesome.
Stood outside this...
Outside CNA.
And I'm approaching him.
And I could see all these peopleveering away from him.
Right.
And I felt really sorry forthem.

(16:39):
As I got closer, I realized theywere really quite young guys.
I felt quite sorry for them.
So I decided that I would...
I thought, well, I'll stop andtalk to them.
And so this lad, Sean Hurst,they called him.
And he said...
do you mind if I ask you aquestion?
So I says, no, I don't mind atall.

(17:01):
So he said, what's the mostimportant thing in your life?
And so I said, winning.
And then I explained that, youknow, I was a, I was a strength
athlete and winning was probablythe one.
And he said,

SPEAKER_02 (17:14):
I thought you said women.

SPEAKER_01 (17:18):
If I, if I'd been honest, Jim, I would have said
women and, That might have beenJim's answer.

SPEAKER_03 (17:25):
Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 (17:26):
But I said winning.
Anyway, he said, if I can showyou something more important
than winning, would you beinterested?
So I said, well, if you can dothat, yeah, I would.
So I arranged for him to come tomy house, really.
These missionaries at Streetcontacted me.
It wasn't them that came.
It was the zone leaders who wereactually just based just over

(17:47):
the road from me, really, whereI was living then.
And so I started getting taughtthe discussions by them.
And when they first taught me,the first discussion then was
the first vision, like theintroduction to the Book of
Mormon.
And I remember thinking at theend of that session, I don't

(18:12):
really believe it, but if it'strue, then it's important that I
find out.
And that was my take on that.
I wasn't convinced, but if itwas true, I knew that it was
important.
And so I went through theinvestigation process and gained
a testimony.

(18:32):
And I got baptized then inAugust the 5th, 1981.
And...
One of the, one of the firstproblems I encountered really
with church was as an athlete,because we, a lot of

(18:55):
competitions were held on aSunday and I was told, you know,
well, we don't really, you know,we don't work on a Sunday.
We don't do like recreation andstuff and we don't watch TV and
we don't, you know, buy thingsfrom shops.
So keeping the Sabbath, Ithought, well, you know, that's
going to be a challenge.
But it just turned out, I mean,that coincided with the end of

(19:15):
the athletic season.
The lifting season began againin October, but the athletic
season then ended in August.
So it just happened that Ididn't have to make that
decision because the season wasalready over in terms of that.
And as I say, I went then.

(19:37):
That would be the August 81.
Then in February 82, I won theYorkshire and North East
Divisional Championships.
I weighed 110 kilos.
I was in the 110 kilo class,heavyweight class.
And I won that.
And that was the first Sundaythat I'd ever missed church from

(19:57):
joining.
And I felt really guilty.
And so the week after, I thinkColin must have been on holiday
or something.
Colin, it was Vic Wainwrightthat were sort of the bishopric
representative.
And I went in and said, youknow, I want to put my papers in
for my mission.
That was what I decided then.

(20:18):
And he said, well, that'samazing because we've sort of
highlighted three of you.
You, his son, Simon.

SPEAKER_03 (20:26):
Oh, yeah, Simon,

SPEAKER_01 (20:28):
yeah.
And Eddie, Eddie Tomlinson.

SPEAKER_03 (20:31):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (20:32):
And the ironic thing is that a few years down the
life, me and Eddie Tomlinsonactually both did serve
missions, but Simon Wainwrightdidn't, and his dad encouraged
him to get his career sortedfirst.
I think with Vic, he's alwayshad a bit of these, one rule for
me and my family and one rulefor everybody else.
Anyway, put my papers in, and Igot my notification back that

(20:56):
I'd been called to theEngland-Birmingham mission.
So I thought, well, that'sexciting.

SPEAKER_03 (21:05):
Lance, for our listeners, how far is that from
where you live?

SPEAKER_01 (21:08):
It's probably about 90 miles, I think.
90

SPEAKER_03 (21:12):
miles.
Yeah.
So Jim, what's that to you, Jim?
What's 90 miles from you?

SPEAKER_02 (21:15):
90 or 19?
90.
90?
Yeah.
So I'm in the Salt Lake area, sothat would be like being called
to Logham.

SPEAKER_01 (21:28):
Well, yeah, I mean, it wasn't a glamorous calling.
When I first got it, I'm lookingfor Alabama after Birmingham,
but unfortunately it said WestMidlands.
And I went on my mission within12 months.

(21:49):
So I joined...
I went through the temple,because you had to be in a year.
So I went through the temple thebeginning of August, with my
one-year anniversary.
And then I went on my...
I actually started being on mymission on the 1st of September.
So within 12 months, I wasserving a full-time mission.
And I was good at it, as ithappens.

(22:13):
And...
In fact, I still make thisclaim, and I've never had
anybody could refute me on this.
I was an AP after eight monthson my mission.
So basically, I've been in thechurch 20 months.
In the church 20 months.
I've been on my mission eightmonths, and I was called to be
the assistant to the president.

(22:34):
So I still claim that as a worldrecord.
I've never had anybody who'stold me any different than that.
Anyway, I was a...
I used to baptise in missionary,you know, did well.
And one of the people, I'm goingto introduce this person now,
because I happen to be marriedto her.
But one of the people that I metquite early on in my mission.
So after I was a greenie for twomonths, then after a greenie, he

(22:59):
made me, my president made me adistrict leader.
So I was a DL after two months.
And then after four months, Iwas a DL and I had a training
responsibility.
So I had a greenie.
Right.
And then shortly after that, Igot caught.
I got, that would be about what?
January.

(23:20):
I got, anyway, I got called tobe an AP after a bit or his own
leader for a month.
And then I were an AP aftereight months.

SPEAKER_03 (23:28):
Wow.
That's fine.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (23:31):
Well, I guess it was.
Yeah.
I came home.
When I came home, I mean, Ithink I've probably held, every
senior calling at ward level.
I've been a bishop, a branchpresident.
I preached group leader.
I've been an elders quorumpresident twice.
I've been a ward mission leaderthree times.

SPEAKER_03 (23:53):
I was your counsellor as elders quorum
president.

SPEAKER_01 (23:55):
You were.
You were.
And a very good one too, youngman.
Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 (23:59):
I'll send you the money after.

SPEAKER_01 (24:01):
Yeah, all right, mate.
And then throughout that, I alsotaught seminary and institute.
But when I came home from mymission, I went to university.
And so throughout myundergraduate years, I held

(24:25):
senior callings and I taughtseminary and institute
throughout that.
And this is how dedicated wewere, right?
The week before my finals of myfirst degree, The weekend, my
finals began on the Monday andwent through till Friday.
And Sunday, obviously, was theSabbath.

(24:50):
So I didn't even revise for my,the day before my finals, first
final exam, because I'd havebeen breaking the Sabbath.
That's how crazy that was.
And I mean, I was greeted thatMonday morning by a load of
other, you know, micro...
compadres on my undergrad courseand they were all like propping

(25:13):
their eyes up with matchsticksbecause they'd been up all night
revising and I'd strolled in andI hadn't done any revision on
the day before.
So, yeah, we took it seriously.
It's fair to say.
While I was on my mission aswell, I don't know if Jim's
aware of this guy, but you knowJeff Capes, don't you, Ian?

SPEAKER_03 (25:38):
I do.
Oh, he's a big name in the

SPEAKER_01 (25:40):
UK.
Well, he's just died recently,bless him as Jeff.
But Jeff, he was a phenomenalstrength athlete.
And at that time, he was thereigning world's strongest man.
And he basically threw out thischallenge to all West Midlands
guys who think they are strong.

(26:01):
You could register for this.
It was the Ennsford Raceway, andhe'd be in a five-ton lorry
pulling contest with Jeff.
So I went along in a T-shirt, asweatshirt I'd made up that said
on the front, Jeff Capes sleepswith a light on.
So enormously disrespectful.
And all credit to the manhimself, took it very much in

(26:25):
good humour.
And we remained friendlythroughout, you know, the rest
of our dealings with each other.
Lovely.
As I say, he died last year, didJeff.

SPEAKER_03 (26:36):
You became friends with Jeff Capes?

SPEAKER_01 (26:38):
Jeff Capes, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (26:39):
Wow.
Jim, our listeners won't knowthis, but Jeff Capes is a huge
name.
I mean, a very famous athlete inthe UK.

SPEAKER_02 (26:47):
What does that mean, he sleeps with the light on?

SPEAKER_01 (26:49):
Well, because people who sleep with the light on are
like little and scared, aren'tthey?

SPEAKER_02 (26:54):
Oh,

SPEAKER_01 (26:54):
okay.
This guy was like a quarter inchunder six foot six and weighed
25 stone, which is what?
In American, that's 220 pounds.

SPEAKER_03 (27:05):
That's a large man.

SPEAKER_01 (27:06):
That is one big man, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (27:08):
And when Lance talks about pulling a lorry, that's a
truck, Jim.
I've got that one.
Yeah, you know this, Jim.
I mean, you're familiar with theUK lingo, right?
Okay, Lance.

SPEAKER_01 (27:24):
Yeah, so, well, as I said, I finished my Michigan
home, did my undergraduatedegree.
I had senior call-ins.
throughout that time and itreally I mean when I look back
now it's really detrimental tome in my first degree because um
instead of spending time um youknow revising and doing academic

(27:48):
stuff I did all that but I wasalso um holding down these,
which is, you know, verytime-consuming callings.
And as I say, when I say Itaught seminary and institute, I
mean I taught seminary and Itaught institute at the same
time.
So there was a lot of readinggoing on.

(28:11):
I was very busy in church.
Church keeps you very busy.
And that kept me very busy.
And I think, you know, to behonest, it was very detrimental
to me in my first degree.
devoting all that time to churchservice.

(28:31):
So, yeah, that element.
I mean, I got a good degree, andI graduated honours in three
years instead of four.
But, as I say, I think I couldhave done even better had I...
What was your degree in, Lance?
Behavioural sciences.
Right.

UNKNOWN (28:51):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (28:52):
which is probably my favourite academic area ever,
but has not been...
I'm going to start taking it upagain, because I went on to
study other stuff as a postgrad.
So because I was involved inmusic and stuff, because I
needed to know my way aroundopera scores and things like

(29:12):
this, and I had very littlemusic education.
And so for some reason, I wentto...
I thought, well, I'd better...
Get myself at least someknowledge.
I was singing with amateurgroups at the time.
We were very good.
But in terms of the technicalaspects of music, I wasn't.

(29:36):
And so I decided to do some morestudying into that.
And I enrolled at WakefieldCollege, basically to do a GCSE.
So this was after my degree.
And I did a degree and then Idid a teaching qualification.

(29:57):
So I thought, well, if ever Iwanted to teach music, I'm going
to need to know my way aroundit.
So I did this GCSE.
But what happened with that wasthat this is when GCSEs were
proper GCSEs.
And as part of the package, youhad half an hour with a coach on

(30:20):
your own instrument.
So my instrument was my voice.
And then you had, sorry, an houra week, private tuition with a
tutor.
And then you had a secondaryinstrument, which if you
couldn't play it, it was thepiano.
So you got half an hour a weekon that.
But anyway, when I got this, Imet my personal tutor, who was

(30:43):
called Hilary Jackson, funnilyenough.
And she was a soft soprano upand off.
So as you're doing these things,you take along an audition
piece.
So I took along Isis and Osirisfrom the Magic Flute.
And I sang about four lines.

(31:05):
She stopped playing.
And she said, have you got anyidea what you've got there?
It's a decent noise and that,but, you know.
She says, no, that is a really,really unique...
I've rarely come across thiskind of voice.
And she said, would you mindcoming and singing for my

(31:27):
husband?
Now, her husband, she's HilaryJackson.
He's Paul Wade.
And he was a principal tenor atOpera North.
And so I went through to seePaul.
And he basically said, you know,can I...
I'd love to be able to coach youand stuff.
I think he was coming towardsthe end of his career and

(31:49):
looking more towards coaching.
Anyway, so that was myintroduction to professional
opera and Opera North.
And so it was a very fortuitoussort of break that really.
So how

SPEAKER_02 (32:01):
old were you when this happened?

SPEAKER_01 (32:03):
So I would be then, so I'd just finished, I'd
probably be 30, 31.
Okay.
Yeah.
But so, and it never occurred tome up to then that I could
probably earn a living throughsinging opera.
Well, I hadn't even really comeacross any opera until I joined

(32:25):
the church.
And did I ever tell you thatstory about Jack Hargrave's car?

SPEAKER_03 (32:33):
I know you and I, with others, prepared Jack's
body.
We did.
And

SPEAKER_01 (32:40):
I was heartbroken.

SPEAKER_03 (32:42):
That was heartbroken.
I lived with Sylvia, as youknow, that lived with their bit
for a year.
So I knew Jack quite well.
But yeah, I know this person,yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (32:50):
So Jack, he was a good bass with Jack.
Very good.

SPEAKER_03 (32:56):
Coal miner from Street House, I think.

SPEAKER_01 (32:59):
Yeah, he was.
He was great, but it was thefirst time I'd heard a proper
bass, you know, live, if youlike.
And I remember I were in church,and I didn't really know a lot
about music.
And so, like every other personwho goes through the door
doesn't know about music, I'mtrying to sing this melody line,

(33:19):
which were inaccessible to me,because it's written for sops
and tenors.
So it was too high for me, so...
But I heard this like cavernoussound coming from the other side
of the chapel.
So next week, the week after, Iwent and sat next to him.
And he was singing.
And I could join in with him,but he wasn't singing the same

(33:42):
line as other people in thecongregation.
So I said to him after, he wassinging the bass line,
obviously, I realized later.
So I said to him after, I said,I can sing it.
When I'm leaning on you, howcome I can't sing the melody

(34:02):
line?
And he said, this is Jack,right?
This is Jack's words, not mine.
Well, that's because of thatbass, lad.

SPEAKER_03 (34:10):
There you

SPEAKER_01 (34:11):
go.
And then he went on to say, andthey're a bloody good bass and
all.
Right,

SPEAKER_03 (34:16):
right.
Yeah, that was Jack.

SPEAKER_01 (34:18):
So I went...
they invited me along to, toCharleston male voice and stuff
like that.
So I just, I didn't reallystart.
I mean, I've got the church tothank in a lot of ways for, you
know, introducing me to that,that wonderful world of, of, of
classical and sacred music.

SPEAKER_03 (34:37):
Right.
So you, you became a, I mean,you had this passion for opera
singing and you, I heard yousing.
I was listening to the choir,Huddersfield choir as well, I
think at stake.
and Wayfield Choir, and then youbecame a professional bass.
And of course, you've got Jimhere, who's a...
Is it right to describe you as aprofessional singer in the
Marmotamico Choir, Jim?

(34:58):
I think that's right.
It would not be

SPEAKER_02 (35:00):
right to...
Nope.
I'm a volunteer.
I'm not paid.
So don't you have to be paid tobe a professional?

SPEAKER_01 (35:09):
Yeah, that's the criteria.

SPEAKER_02 (35:11):
I've been paid to sing on...
some occasions but i certainlyhaven't made a living at it so
uh no i don't think it would beappropriate to call me
professional but uh i and i'mvery impressed the the idea of
becoming a professional operasinger i mean that's such a
rarefied sort of career thereare very few people that are

(35:35):
able to do that and to sort ofarrive at that in your 30s yeah
uh i just think that'sUnbelievably impressive.

SPEAKER_01 (35:44):
Thank you.
And even more so considering I'ma working class lad from a
council estate in the northeastof England.
Yes.
So that wasn't really a definedcareer path for many folk,
really.
So, yeah.
And then before, going back alittle bit, in 1984, when I'd

(36:06):
come home from my mission, Imarried Nancy.
who you know.
Yeah?

SPEAKER_03 (36:14):
Yes.
Yes, I know Nancy.

SPEAKER_01 (36:17):
And I'm going to say something that's probably awful
now, but I never loved Nancy.
No, I was never in love withNancy.
I loved her.
And let me tell you thereasoning behind marrying her.
Obviously, I'd come quite awayin church in a very short time,

(36:37):
so very naive in church.
And Spencer W.
Kimball...
and was the prophet at the time,he came out and made this
statement.
And he said, basically, any twopeople who are living the gospel
can have a happy marriage.
So with that in the background,I then got Brian Ford and John
Barnsley singing the praise ofthis woman who I'd never...

(37:00):
Oh, Nancy.
Nancy, you know, she's yourticket to Celestial Kingdom kid
and all this.
And I met Nancy the Sundaybefore I went on my mission.
She was one of...
several young ladies who wroteto me and her tenure was the
longest.
And basically I decided to marryher.

(37:24):
And I really, I feel very sadfor, I feel sad for me, but I
feel very sad for her that theman she married never really
loved her in the way that Herhusband loves her wife.
But I knew when I married her, Iknew that she would always be

(37:45):
faithful in church.
I knew she'd bring my kids up inchurch.
And so all those things whichwere important, those bases were
ticked.
But contrary to what PresidentKimball says, it wasn't a happy
marriage because I wasn'tcomfortable throughout it.

(38:07):
I wasn't happy with Nancy.
because I just didn't have thatlove for her.
And marriage is hard enough.
But when you don't really fullylove your wife, it becomes
impossible.
But having said that, we hadthree biological children
together and we stayed togetherfor 27 years.

(38:32):
While on my mission, I taught ayoung person.
called Anita Jones.
And I was training in Litchfieldat the time.
And we met Anita's family.
They'd all joined the church,but she hadn't.
And so we'd gone round there, asyou do as missionaries.

(38:56):
And it was one of those thingsthat when I met her, I would
immediately...
drawn to it.
We had a connection from theword go and it wasn't an
inappropriate connection becauseshe was only 14 at the time.
We were just people who justenjoyed each other's company.
And in fact, Anita was abridesmaid at my wedding.

(39:22):
I came to realise as the yearswent on that what I felt for
Anita was very different to whatI felt for my wife.
And I know that's awful.
It really is.
And I take no pride in that atall.
But I never really loved Nancy.

(39:44):
And so we had three childrentogether, Naomi, Ben and Chris.
And then when Christopher wasold enough, because he was quite
happy to be the youngest memberof the family, young
Christopher, And we dideverything in consultation with

(40:06):
the kids in regard to fostering.
We decided we'd like to foster,to give some kids who hadn't had
a great chance in life toexperience something good and
wholesome.
And so we decided to dolong-term fostering.

(40:29):
because that way the kidsweren't getting moved.
So you've got short-term andlong-term fostering.
I don't know if you know this,Ian.
But short-term, a kid's beenremoved from his immediate
family.
They're put into with a familyfor a short period until a
long-term foster placement canbe found for them.

(40:49):
We were long-term fosters.
First people we fostered were abrother and sister from
Pontefract.
And their background was notgood.
Their parents were heroinaddicts.
And this might soundcontradictory, but they were

(41:10):
nice people.
They were nice people just inthe grip of a horrible
substance.
And they couldn't look afterthese kids at all.
So, Tyler and Jasmine came tous.
And then we fostered kids whowere basically very difficult to
place.
And so we, Tyler had learningdifficulties and Jasmine came

(41:37):
with him.
And then we fostered anotheryoung kid called Chelsea and she
had Curzon syndrome.
It's where when they're born,the skull closes up too quickly.
And so a typical feature ofsomebody with that would be like
their eyes might look likethey're bulging out and things.

(42:01):
So we took Chelsea in becausenobody else wanted her.
And then we then, a bit lateron, took in another brother and
sister who had been...

(42:22):
This is a bit of a complex oneas well.
Their father had been married toAngie Priest, who was a member
in Wakefield, and they'ddivorced, and he'd had these two
kids with someone else, and theywere living in Spain.
So he died, and the motherabandoned him.
So they were in a Spanishorphanage.

(42:44):
And when Angie found out aboutthis, even though the only
relationship really that she hadto him was she would perform a
wife of their dad, But shebrought him back to the UK.
And then Jeff Warriner, who wasthe bishop, she couldn't look
after him, but she just, youknow, she looked after him for
as long as she could, but shereally needed somebody else to

(43:04):
step in.
And so Jeff Warriner got intouch with us and asked if we
could take these two.
And basically we said, yeah.
So we got these, we got fivefoster children as well as the
three birth children.

UNKNOWN (43:18):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (43:19):
So that's, you know, as I listen to you and you start
and there's a lot of you, Ididn't know until this
conversation.
So you're in the church, you'remarried, your family, you know,
you've shared about yourfeelings about your
relationship.
You devoted to the church.
I think you was the Bishop ofPontefract at one point, if I'm
not

SPEAKER_01 (43:37):
mistaken.
I was the first Bishop ofPontefract, yeah.
You were

SPEAKER_03 (43:39):
the first Bishop of Pontefract.
That's the branch that I joinedbefore I went to Wakefield.
You had this attitude of winningfrom the early stages.
You grew up on Lipset CouncilEstate, I think, if I'm not
mistaken.
I did, indeed.
And you had aspirations to dosomething wonderful with your
life, which you did, clearly.

(43:59):
You served a mission.
Became a bass singer.
You made a home for fosterchildren, creating a positive
experience.
What happened after that period,Lance, in terms of the church?
So you were serving the church.
At some point, you...
I think, disenfranchised withthe church.

SPEAKER_01 (44:21):
Absolutely, I did, yeah.
Well, it was...
So these five children were withus.
They'd been with us for severalyears at this point.
We were going through theprocess of adopting the two
youngest, the two kids that comefrom Spain.
And I became ill, basically.

(44:42):
This was 2008.
I was doing some postgraduatework at Hull University, and I
became ill.
And first I was ill physically,and then I became ill mentally
as well.
And it was just a steadydownward spiral, Ian.

(45:08):
What happened was, I don't know,again, how aware you are about
this, but in 2007, they broughtin the Religious Discrimination
Act as an Act of Parliament.
And basically, anybody who wasdiscriminated against on grounds
of religious belief, that it wasillegal.

(45:32):
And we became very much pariahsin this foster care setup
because a new woman had takenover who obviously had nothing
down for organized religions ingeneral and Mormonism in
particular.
And she was very, very, well,openly hostile to us.

(46:00):
And over a period of time, in2008, as I say, I became ill.
And then between 2008 and 2010,basically, she had all the kids
killed.
removed from us.
And it was as blatant a case ofreligious discrimination as you

(46:21):
could have encountered.
I went to see my statepresident.
Well, not when it ended, it wasgoing on.
And I said, look, you know,we've been, there's no doubt
here that we are beingdiscriminated against because
we're Mormons.
And, you know, so is thereanything you can do?
And he said, well, you know, Iexplained everything to him.
He says, oh, Lance, it seemslike you've got a real case

(46:42):
there.
He says, I'll I'll take thishigher up the food chain and
I'll get back to you.
And so he did that.
By this time, we'd had all thekids removed.
And I was, as I say, I was ill,Pauline.

(47:02):
I was developing.
I mean, I think it would be fairto say I had a nervous
breakdown.
And so...
I went to see my state presidentagain.
I said, well, you know, what arewe doing about this?
And he says, well, I've been intouch with the area president or
whoever it was.
And he said, the church doesn'twant any involvement.

(47:26):
I said, what?
He said, the church won't beinvolved in that to bring this
case.
And I remember thinking, whywould you not?
I mean, I came to realize thatthe reason that they wouldn't is
if they came into an open court,they would have to embellish on
some of the you know the lessthan mainstream doctrines of the

(47:49):
church if you like so but anywaywe lost all these kids my son
Ben had served in Japan and he'dcome home and Chris and then
Chris was serving in at one ofthe London missions during this
time.
I mean, we were having to phonethem up and tell them, you know,

(48:10):
this is, you know, you rememberyour sister Jasmine, she ain't
going to be here when you getback.
And then it, so it just, yeah,it destroyed me.
I think it's fair to say it was,it was like a bereavement
really.
You know, I'd lost five childrenand I was powerless over it and
we couldn't have any contactwith them.

(48:31):
And so at that time, Iremember...
Well, I started self-medicating.

SPEAKER_03 (48:40):
Can I ask you, did they give specific reasons for
removing the children?
Were they specific, likedoctrine or policies

SPEAKER_01 (48:48):
or something?
Well, yeah.
Well, they did.
Tyler, who was the eldest of thekids that we adopted, we'd gone
on holiday, and it was duringschool term time.
Now, Tyler...
at the intellectual capacity ofa four-year-old, really.

(49:09):
And we'd gone on holidays beforewith them, like to France and
places like this, but thisparticular time they said, no,
you can't take Tyler out ofschool.
And so he said, okay.
And they said, well, he can betemporarily fostered by a
respite carer.

(49:30):
So you come back off yourholidays, fair enough.
So Tyler had gone to this place,and basically I think the woman
had offered him a cup of tea.
Oh, no, he'd said, you know, I'dlove a cup of tea, but I can't.
And so this woman said, well, Ican't have a cup of tea.

(49:51):
Oh, well, they won't let me.
They won't let me.
And they started to paint apicture of us, you know, sort of
implanting our– They knew wewere Mormons, we were foster
carers.
In fact, it was almost, youknow, a box ticker in some
respects.
But anyway, this became underthis woman.
We were denying him stuff on thebasis of our religious beliefs.

(50:16):
And we went through all thispanel.
And I don't do myself anyfavours because I can't keep my
mouth shut, really.
And on this panel, there was awoman and she was a Muslim.
And they were basicallyquestioning me about, you know,
inflicting my religious beliefson people.
So I said to her, I said, let mejust ask you this.
I said, if you fostered a kidand that kid came to your house

(50:36):
and didn't want to report by,what's your stance?
And, oh, it's got nothing to dowith it.
But so you see, I don't, I don'tdo myself favours sometimes, but
I won't, I won't shut up if Ithink so much wrong.
Anyway, that was the process.
And they just painted thispicture of us being, religious

(50:57):
fanatics who were imposing ourweird religious beliefs on these
children that came to us andthat we shouldn't be allowed to
do that.
We shouldn't be foster carersanymore.
And basically they took us offthe foster carers register and
we lost all the kids, whichabsolutely broke me.

(51:18):
I mean, that's what led to themental illness, to the
breakdown.
Do you want anything else onthat, Ian?
No,

SPEAKER_03 (51:26):
I'm just so sorry that you had to go through that.
And obviously I'm disappointedthat the church, when you needed
them the most, they weren'tthere.
So when the church made thatdecision then, how did that
impact your confidence and faithin the church when they
basically about

SPEAKER_01 (51:45):
you?
It shattered it.
Because I'm thinking, well, youknow, this is supposedly the
true church on earth.
We should be challenging thesethings.
But as I say, I came to realize,you know, that the reason that
they hadn't, it was because theywould have to explain the belief
system in an open court.
And let's face it, an open courtin England, it would have just

(52:08):
ridiculed a lot of things thatwe taught.
Right.
And so during that period, Ijust couldn't take it.
Physically, I was unable to getout to church a lot.
But mentally, I was just sinkinginto despair.
And I started self-medicating.

(52:28):
I started first, through beingan athlete, through being in the
military, I'd carried injuriesaround all the time.
And I've still got a dodgy back.
And I'd been prescribed verystrong painkillers for a long

(52:49):
time.
I didn't always use them everyweek, but I used to store them
in case I ever ran out orwhatever.
And so I had access to all thesereally strong painkillers,
codeine-based painkillers.
And so I started taking them tomake me feel better, taking them

(53:10):
in excess quantities.
Right.
And then, and I don't know ifyou know anything about like
opioid addiction, Ian, but whathappens is, I mean, you build up
a tolerance for it.
So whereas the 10 tablets wouldinitially give, you know, give
you a high or, you know, helpyou remove yourself mentally

(53:31):
from the situation, it increasedto, you know, 15, 20, 30.
just ridiculous amounts.
And obviously then I was runningout of this spare stock that I
had.
I still had them onprescription, but it wasn't
enough.
So then I started supplementingthem with alcohol as well.

(53:52):
And I was just, I mean, thatdidn't help the illness any.
So it was just that downwardspiral.
And that was sort of between2007, I want to say, and 2010
and I went from we had because alot of my work as an opera

(54:15):
singer had been freelancebecause I was a principal you
know I was freelance and so I'dnot really got like any pension
schemes or anything like thatbut I'd invested in property and
I got these two railway cottagesthat I bought and I knocked them
in so I had like a six bedroomhouse and some land out the

(54:37):
back.
And that was my retirement fund,basically.
I planned to retire at 55 andeither sell up and move to the
south of France, where propertywas really cheap, or basically
rent them out as flats.
Because where we lived, it hadgreat access to M62, M1.

(55:01):
So it was a lovely area.
It was all tufts.
And so...
We were going to maybe use it asstudent accommodation.
That was my retirement plan.
And we lost everything,basically.
There was a financial crash in2008.
That didn't help.
I had two credit cards at thattime, and they had 25 grand on

(55:22):
each.
And basically, Nancy keptspending like I was still on,
you know, 50 grand a year orwhatever it was.
And obviously there wasn't themoney coming in, so she was
using these cards.
And basically, long story short,within about 18 months, no, two

(55:43):
years, I'd say probably, we'dlost the houses and we were
living in private rentedaccommodation.
So that's how quick you can goon a downward slope, really.
And so...
That was all that wiped out.

SPEAKER_03 (56:03):
Were you serving as the bishop at the time, or was
this after the bishop calling?

SPEAKER_01 (56:07):
No, mate, this was after.
When I preached group leader, Ithink when all this started to
kick off.

SPEAKER_03 (56:11):
Right, okay.

SPEAKER_01 (56:13):
But...
But as I said, I didn't go outto church.
I couldn't physically manage togo out to church.
I had this posturalhypertension, which in fact, I
mean, I've still got it.
But when you move posture, sosay you go from prone to sitting
or from sitting to standing,it's like your blood pressure

(56:35):
plummets to dangerous levels andbasically you fall over.
And so I couldn't physically getout to church.
But as I said then, it becamewhere I didn't really want to.
And at about that point then, Ithink ironically, Nancy got in

(56:58):
touch with Anita.
I forget how it would be, but itwas on Facebook.
And one of them had sent afriend request or something like
this.
Anyway.
So I started talking to Anitaand she was like my voice of
sanity.
And Anita hadn't, after I'dbaptised her, she hadn't

(57:18):
remained active really for long.
She said since, you know, Ijoined the church because of
you, basically.
But we'd remained sort ofintermittently in contact over
the years.
But she was still, you know, myfavourite person.
And talking to her was just likea breath of fresh air.
I didn't have to...
You know, I feel guilty aboutreligion.

(57:39):
I didn't have to validateanything, really.
She just let me talk.
And, you know, I mean, you knowwhat's going to come next.
I thought to myself, you know,I've always been attracted to
her.
I'm not in love with Nancy.
And so, basically, I left homeand moved in with Anita.

(58:04):
And that straightaway then...
In 20 moments, I realized itinvalidates me now from
everything because I'm justdoing this because I'm an
excommunicant and I wanted toleave the church to sin.
That wasn't exactly, thatwouldn't be accurate.
Anyway, I moved in with Anita.
I got excommunicated.
Obviously, that was going tohappen.

(58:26):
But then, so I'd moved here in2011 and Anita was still on the
church records.
So there was an older missionarycouple in the ward that served
this area.
And they'd just come round, youknow, they've got an inactives
list, basically, and Anita wasthere.

(58:47):
And, you know, she let them inbecause she's a kind and lovely
person.
And they were lovely people.
And they used to come round and,you know, socialise with us and
have meals and we'd go totheirs.
Well, you know, it's the churchreactivation program.
And I wasn't quite ready to goback.

(59:10):
But we started going out tochurch again.
So when we went back out tochurch, there were quite a lot.
I mean, obviously, I didn'tparticipate much, if at all,
because of my membership status.
I was excommunicated.

(59:31):
And, you know, Anita did.
And then we invited the...
We went out a few times.
And then we invited, you know,the young missionaries that were
also serving in the ward, theelders.
We invited them over for a meal.
Because I've always had thisphilosophy that, you know...

(59:51):
I'd hoped when my lads were onmissions that people would
invite them around for meals andfeed them.
And so we'd always, I'd done itwith Nancy.
And so we had the, anyway, withthese young lads coming around.
And they were scheduled to comearound this Friday evening.
And they were due at 6.30.

(01:00:13):
And I remember thinking tomyself, you know, I'm getting
re-involved with the churchhere.
And if I'm going to have any,you know, I'm involving Anita,
if I'm going to have any, andthere are things that I need to
clear up.
Now, we've always got things,Ian, and I'm sure this is true

(01:00:34):
of us all.
Some people call it their shelf.
I used to call it like my Mormonbox.
And things will come updoctrinally or church
history-wise, and you...
you'll think, well, you know,that sounds a bit, you know, it
doesn't sound quite right.
But then you put them, well, youknow, I know the church is true.

(01:00:55):
I know the Book of Mormon istrue.
I know, you know, and you gothrough this self-hypnosis
process.
And I, but I said, I'm going toinvestigate the church.
There were two major issues atthe time for me.
There were a load, excuse me,there were a load, but I mean,

(01:01:18):
obviously, you know, the thingsthat are put in the past,
polygamy, black people and thepriesthood, 116 missing pages,
that sort of thing.
But this was two quite specificthings that told me recently.
One was the Mike Wallaceinterview with Gordon B.
Hinckley.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:37):
Is that the 60-minute interview?

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:39):
Yes.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:40):
Right.
I remember watching that.
Jim, you've seen that, haven'tyou?

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:44):
I have, yes.
And the other was DNA.
So, and this Michael Wallaceinterview, I'll just remind you.
One of the things that GodmeInkley was asked was this little
quote thing that we'd had inchurch.

(01:02:05):
This is when I was active inchurch, where it says, as man
is, God once was, as God is, mancan become, yeah?
And President Hinckley just sortof went really dismissive about
this.
And he said, you know, do wereally teach that?
It's just, you know, just alittle ditty.
I remember thinking, I hope weteach it.

(01:02:25):
Because A, it's a basic tenet ofMormonism.
And B, I just taught it lastSunday.
So, you know, that flummoxed me.
He

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:35):
actually said, sorry, he said, I don't know if
we still teach that or teachthat.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:40):
That's exactly right.
Is that right, Jim?
That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:43):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:44):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, I mean, to me, that's afundamental tenet of Mormonism
is that, you know, we can becomelike unto God.
So there was that one that Ithought, I'm going to look at
this.
And then there was the whole DNAthing with Native American, I

(01:03:04):
mean, Indians who weredesignated as being the
principal ancestors of, The LameKnights were the principal
ancestors of the people on theAmerican continent and this
Gordon B.
Hinckley.
And I thought, I'm just going toresearch that and say, I'm not

(01:03:26):
going to look at it throughfaith.
I'm not going to think, youknow, well, I'm going to put my
faith head on and be fobbed off.
I thought, I'm going to look atthis like an academic.
Like the academic I am, I'mlooking at this in that way.
And it took me, I swear onanything that I hold sacred,
seven minutes.

(01:03:47):
Seven minutes of, and I use allchurch sources.
And I turn that to Anita and Isays, I've just lived a lie for
30 years.
And then obviously I went on andlooked further and further into
it.
And there were just some thingsthat I hadn't allowed myself to
think about.
There were just so many things.

(01:04:08):
And it was all from the church'sown history, really.
And I thought there's anabsolutely...
I've been deluding myself for 30years.
And I went through a period of,I mean, absolute just anger.

(01:04:32):
I was so annoyed that I'd givenup...
Such a large part of my life.
As a young man, I'd given up onmy athletic dreams.
As an older man, I'd sacrificedmy first degree, really, which I
could have got a lot betterclassification for.

(01:04:53):
I'd have been revising and notserving in all these key
positions and teaching seminaryand institute.
All those things that came to methat I'd sacrificed.
And I thought, you know, you'veconned me.
Because if the church hadactually presented it to me in
the way that reality pans outand in the way that they
acknowledge it these days, Iwouldn't have joined.

(01:05:15):
I wouldn't have joined thechurch.
Somebody would have said to me,if they're missionaries, they'd
have said the first time theytaught me, about First Vision.
Now, actually, Lance, you know,this is a First Vision.
There were five of them.
And he gave different accountsin each.
But this is the one we've landedon.
I just thought, what?

(01:05:37):
And also, I've become quiteinterested in what I call church
art.
And, you know, as a mission, weused to teach you the flip chart
and all that and these pictures,these iconic Mormon pictures, if
you like, like the one of thefirst vision, you know, the two
separate and distinctindividuals, Joseph on his knees

(01:05:57):
in the sacred grove.
And also like the translations,you know, Joseph sat in, you'll
know these pictures, Joseph satin front of a, you know, goat
plates and he's writing stuffdown.
We know these pictures, yeah.
And it just, all by the church'sown admission.
It just didn't happen like that.

(01:06:18):
And if it had been put to me, asI said, when the missionaries
first came round, I thought, Idon't believe it, but I owe it
to myself to find out if it'strue.
And if they'd have presented itto me in the honest way, I
wouldn't have joined.
I'd have thought, well, youknow, it's a nonsense.
So that was the...

(01:06:39):
Yeah, that was...
I was just fuming.
And I don't know if you rememberit.
I remember you getting in touchwith me and rebuking me.

SPEAKER_03 (01:06:48):
So what happened is that I was talking back and
forth with Nancy.
I don't know how theconversation started.
Nancy had mentioned that you'dleft the church.
I don't remember the details.
Going back a few years.
And Jim, back then, Jim, I wasvery active.
I think it was on the statepresidency here in Canada.
And felt worried about myfriend, Lance, concerned for

(01:07:09):
him, you know, his welfare,spiritual welfare.
Nancy and I were backingforward.
I said, look, I'll reach out tohim and chat with him and try to
figure out, you know, what'shappening.
Because Lance, you were alwaysthis, and still are, of course,
you were just this amazing rockin the church.
And now you weren't in thechurch.
And I couldn't understand why.
And that was completely, youknow, like you were completely

(01:07:32):
immersed.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:32):
Sure, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:07:33):
And so, Jim, I attempted to try to engage Lance
on some stuff, and I apologizefor rebuking you.
Did I rebuke you?
I'm so sorry about that.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:44):
Well, no, you didn't do anything.
You didn't say anything to methat I wouldn't have said to
somebody in my position before Ileft the church.
Right.
So I fully knew where you werecoming from.
And, you know, however much youthink you felt about me, I felt
the same about you.
We reciprocated.
I always thought you were a fineyoung man who grew into a fine

(01:08:05):
man.
And I knew how dedicated youare.
You served in Scotland and youobviously had a great love for
the people that you taught andthings like that.
So, you know, you're a veryadmirable man.
And so I didn't take it.
I didn't do it badly.
It wasn't anything I didn'treally expect, if I'm honest,
Ian, from you.

(01:08:28):
But, you know, I remember whenI...
I'd been here about six months.
And Anita said to me, do yourealise, Lance, that in six
months...

(01:08:49):
These people who you thoughtwere your friend over 30 years,
only one of them has bothered tobe in touch with you.
And that was John Barnsley.
And I thought about that.
And I thought, well, I think myinitial reaction was, I wasn't
surprised.
I thought, well, yeah, you know,that's a church thing, really.
You know what I mean?

(01:09:10):
Somebody goes off and, you know,you don't want polluting by
their...
apostate teachings and stuff.
So I wasn't sure I wasn't evenhurt.
But she, you know, she pointedthat out.
And I remember thinking, becauseI was starting to think, you
know, outside of the Mormonbubble at that point, I'm
thinking, well, yeah, that ain'tnormal.
That isn't a normal thing thatyou do to your mate.

(01:09:32):
You know, you get in touch, youknow, and say, you know, so I'm
here for you.
If nothing else, I'm here foryou, you know.
But nobody asked.
And I'm back in touch with a lotnow of people, a lot of people
who have left the church, by theway.
But, yeah, it's a similarreality for everybody, I think,

(01:09:53):
who goes down the route that Ido.
Jim,

SPEAKER_03 (01:09:56):
when you hear this story, you know, you and I have
had many, many conversationswith wonderful guests on our
podcast.
When you hear Lance'sexperience, what are your
thoughts and feelings in termsof...
you know, the whole thing, howit rolled out and not Lance's
experience.

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:14):
Well, the first thing that just comes to mind is
Lance, you said it only tookseven minutes.
I'm very curious as to what itwas that you were reading in
those seven minutes.
Okay.
Right.
Well, what, what, Was it thefirst vision?

SPEAKER_01 (01:10:29):
Well, I typed in.
Not then.
It subsequently became one.
But as I said, the two thingsthat I looked at were probably
of the more recent things in mylife that had caused me to sort
of think, hang on, that doesn'tseem right.
And that was the Mike Wallaceinterview.
with Gordon B.
Hinckley.
And I thought, and I refreshedmy memory.

(01:10:51):
We did teach that.
And as far as I'm aware, rightup to the moment that I stopped
going out to church, I taughtthat.
That was a basic fundamentaltenet of Mormonism.
So I looked that up and sort ofreaffirmed to myself that I
hadn't sort of dreamt it.
And then the whole NorthAmerican Indians DNA thing stuff

(01:11:15):
where the wording to the Book ofMormon, which was initially are
the principal ancestors of theAmerican Indians.
And that had been changed towere among the principal
ancestors.
And I thought it just doesn'tbear any scrutiny.
And as a sort of sidebar,another thing that had come up

(01:11:36):
on it was this bit aboutapostles.
And apostles...
Now, when I was in the church,there were special witnesses of
Jesus Christ.
Yeah, that's what an apostlewas.
Now, whether or not, they didn'tever make it explicit, but you

(01:11:58):
and I and everybody else knows,we were implicitly taught that
that special witness was they'dseen him.
They'd seen the Saviour.
That's what a special witnesswas.
They'd seen the Saviour.
And now they were not specialwitnesses of Christ, of Jesus
Christ, but they were nowspecial witnesses of the name of

(01:12:21):
Christ.
Well, weren't we all?
We were all witnesses of thename of Christ.
Anybody who professes to be aChristian is a special witness
of the name of Christ.
That didn't make them tooimportant.
It's this idea that we weresold, and we were sold.
It didn't matter how anybodysays, we were sold this idea,
those apostles, They knewbecause they'd seen him.

(01:12:44):
I mean, I don't know if youagree with that, Jim, but it was
never stated, but it wasdefinitely implied.
And that's what we grew up with.
Was that your experience, Ian?
Is that what you thought?
Yes.
That they'd seen him?
Yes.
It is mine.
What

SPEAKER_03 (01:13:03):
about yours, Jim?
What's your thought on that?

SPEAKER_02 (01:13:06):
No, that was my experience as well.
I remember sitting in a generalpriesthood session My father was
a United States senator at thetime, so he got tickets, and he
would bring family members tocome with him.
He would get extra tickets.
And we were sitting, and it wasmy father and my nephew and me.

(01:13:27):
And my nephew said, I wonder howmany times they've each seen
Jesus Christ.
Right.
And my father said, once in alifetime if they're lucky.
Right.
And I remember looking at myfather and just thinking,
really?
Yeah.

(01:13:49):
Talking to him.
And my nephew just couldn'taccept it.
He said, oh, no, no, no, no.
It's much more than that.
Right.
And so I've had longconversations with people about
this particular issue.
And I think you're absolutelyright.
The implication is very strongthat Yet when you talk to them

(01:14:10):
one-on-one, when you actuallystart talking to general
authorities and leaders, theywill admit that they encounter
God in the same way that we do.
Yes,

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:22):
Jim, you're right,

SPEAKER_02 (01:14:23):
yeah.
They're very open about that.
I mean, I've had thatconversation with...

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:28):
Well, Jim, they're open now because they've had the
feet held to the fire, but theyweren't open then.

SPEAKER_02 (01:14:37):
No, what I'm saying is they are open when you talk
to them one-on-one as people.
They are not open when theyspeak in conference.
The implication is still, theone that I just, that keeps
coming up, when I wrote my replyto the CES letter, it was right

(01:14:57):
after Quentin L.
Cook, an apostle, had gotten upand said, I know his voice, I
know his face.
Right.
And the implication wasabsolutely, well, you know his
voice and you know his facebecause you've heard him and
you've seen him.
Yes.
But he won't say that because itprobably isn't true.

(01:15:20):
I mean, there are apostles thathave talked about having those
kinds of unique experiences, butthey are rare experiences.
And they are, I mean, I haven'theard sort of an explicit, I saw
the Savior statement.

(01:15:40):
No, no.
In my entire life.
I've heard plenty ofimplications.
But I have never heard anapostle stand up and say, I saw
Jesus Christ.
No.
The closest I can remember isDavid B.
Haight.
gave a talk near the end of hislife where he admitted in his

(01:16:01):
talk that he had never seenJesus and that he had this sort
of vision where he saw Jesus.
And I remember thinking when Iheard that, going, oh, well, I
had assumed that you had seenJesus prior to that.
So I absolutely, I don't thinkthat your reaction is in any way

(01:16:22):
surprising.
And it's also, I think all alltoo common.
I think there are a lot ofmembers who have this sort of
deified version of what theythink the apostles are and what
they experience.
And their faith comes crashingdown when they realize that
these apostles are men and thatthey encounter God the same way

(01:16:46):
we do.
I've sort of reconciled that inmy own personal faith.
So when you say these kind ofthings to me, I don't go, oh
gosh, I mean, it comes down, Ithink, to some degree to
expectation, to the idea of, Idon't expect the prophet or the

(01:17:08):
apostles to be demigods.
And I don't expect them to haveencountered God in a way
different from me.
So it doesn't really shake myfaith when I recognize that.
But I absolutely...
can see how it shakes the faithof many who, you are absolutely

(01:17:31):
right, have that implicationgiven to them.
And even if the apostlesthemselves aren't explicit, I've
taught seminary.
I taught seminary for threeyears.
Lower down in the church, ifyou're in a seminary class, I
can promise you all of mychildren in seminary class have
had seminary teachers And churchleaders tell them, yes, of

(01:17:56):
course, the apostles see Jesus.
Yes, of course.
After every general conference,I remember hearing a seminary
teacher talk about how everygeneral conference, the
president of the church headsoff to the Holy of Holies
because he has an interview withthe Savior where he reports on
how successful conference was.

(01:18:17):
And I just don't believe thatanymore.
And I don't think...
You have to believe that, but Iabsolutely see where that
teaching and that implication isstill very prevalent

SPEAKER_01 (01:18:32):
in the church today.
Would you agree, Jim, that Ithink that one of the problems,
I think, for the church is thatmost members, the vast majority
of members, don't know what therevelationary process is.

SPEAKER_00 (01:18:49):
Because,

SPEAKER_01 (01:18:50):
again, when you've had these, you know, you come
across these things throughoutchurch history where the
president of the church, theprophet, he's changed direction
or he's introduced somethingelse or something's come up.
Now, my idea, and I don't knowhow you two guys were, I thought

(01:19:11):
that when you were the prophet,you received revelation thus.
The Lord would tell youdirectly, what he wants.
Now that's how I saw therevelation he proposed.

SPEAKER_02 (01:19:24):
I mean, he would show up and he would speak to
you.

SPEAKER_01 (01:19:26):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's it.
So, and, and, and the reality isthat that's not how it works.
Um, that, you know, it'sbasically, it's almost like a
committee it's discussed.
And then, you know, we, we, the,the decide how to go for,
because I could neverunderstand, for example, let's
take blacks and the priesthood.
Um, I could never understand howthat worked, where suddenly

(01:19:49):
black people are now able toreceive the priesthood.
And I remember thinking tomyself at the time, why hadn't
God told a prophet before?
How come this has just come forthis guy?

(01:20:11):
But there are lots of sort ofinstances like that where
polygamy, I mean, polygamy isanother obvious biggie, where,
you know, either polygamy wasright or it was wrong.
And so the fact that, you know,man didn't recognize it
shouldn't have made anydifference.

(01:20:34):
And so I think that when youstart to get into these areas,
you assume, or at least Iassumed as a member, that God
was appearing to these guys andtelling them, this is what I
want.
Thus saith me.
This is what I want to happennow.
And obviously that isn't the waythat is.

(01:20:58):
I read a bit more in depth onthat particular revelation.
And the Quorum of the TwelveApostles were quite split.
Some of them thought that itshould remain as it were.
Some of them, principallyPresident Kimball, thought that

(01:21:18):
it should change and they had towait while all the apostles came
back they reconvened and some ofthem you know sort of spoke out
against it and president kimballhad the final word and said no
this is what's happening and ithink that because and when you
understand now once you've gotthat information you can think
well i can all right i can seethat that that where that might

(01:21:42):
be a justification because ifgod was actually speaking to
these guys then I'm going tohave to believe that, you know,
he keeps changing his mind.
And he doesn't, you know, hedoesn't actually...
A recent one is the Mormonthing.

(01:22:02):
The whole, you know, we don't...
I'm a Mormon.
So you've got a prophet inThomas S.
Monson.
And from 2010 to 2018...
I mean, he ran, it was aprogram, you know, I'm a Mormon.
And don't know how many millionswere spent on advertising,
promoting and things like this,putting media out and things.

(01:22:26):
And then the next guy comes inand he says, actually, we're
going to scrap that.
And now you don't refer toyourself as Mormons.
You refer to yourself as membersof the Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints.
And I suppose if I would go backto my original, you know,
personal revelation from God,I'm just amazed that God didn't
sort of tap one of them on theshoulder and say, you know,

(01:22:48):
actually, this is it.
Not change direction totallyhalfway through or however many
years through.
So I think once you get aninsight into how the church says
it does receive revelation, thenthat...
I suppose then opens up anavenue for an apologist.

(01:23:12):
Because if God was talking tothese people as a man speaketh
to another man, then he'schoosing to leave a lot of stuff
out when he's talking to someprophets.

SPEAKER_03 (01:23:27):
Lance, we're coming to the end of our podcast today.
Again, I just can't thank youenough for taking the time to
meet with us.
I've got a couple of questionsand probably Jim may have a
final question as well or afinal thought.
This might be, it's aninteresting question, I think.
With your dedication, devotionthat you describe in your life,

(01:23:51):
you know, from joining thechurch, serving a mission, just
almost immediately after beingin the church for a year and
leadership, commitment anddevotion, and you're bearing of
your testimony, and you madereference at the beginning about
the Holy Ghost, what do youattribute that spiritual
experience to be?
The church is, you've lived alie, you've been deceived, yet

(01:24:20):
you bore testimony of the churchfrom spiritual experience that
you had.
So how do you attribute thatexperience, or what do you
attribute it to, And the otherquestion I have is, where are
you now with your faith?
So there's two questions there.

SPEAKER_01 (01:24:38):
Right.
Well, I undoubtedly bore mytestimony thousands and
thousands of times because atthat time I sincerely believed
that it was true.
At the end of that first sessionwith the missionaries, they left
me a copy of the Book of Mormonand they identified Moroni's
promise.

(01:24:59):
And I did exactly what they'dasked me to do.
I went up to my room, I openedthat up, I knelt down, prayed,
and I felt like I'd received arevelation.
I felt like, you know, this warmfeeling that you get is...

(01:25:20):
And I thought that was arevelation, that it was true.
Now, so I didn't...
I feel a bit of a fraud nowsometimes when I talk to people
who will ask that very question,you know, why, you know, what
changed.
I think what changed was I cameto realise that there are lots
of things that can give me thatfeeling, Ian.

(01:25:41):
You know, I've had that feelingon stage when I've sang a
wonderful aria and people standup and clap.
I had that feeling I suspectevery Muslim you'll talk to will
say the same thing a lot ofChristians will say the same
thing I felt that it was truebut it's feelings I suppose well

(01:26:08):
they were enough for me for along time but the evidence just
definitely outstrips all thatBecause there's so much evidence
now.
When you and I were younger inthe church, Ian, there was a lot
of...
It seemed like some Christiandenominations, Pentecostals

(01:26:31):
particularly, they didn't haveany other doctrine other than
sort of anti-Mormon stuff.
And some of it was patentlyridiculous and made up.
And so they had no realcredibility.
But I think it's only when yougo back as a church member and

(01:26:54):
look at church history.
Their own history condemns themin a lot of ways.
Do you remember Paul H.
Dunne?
Do you remember Paul H.
Dunne?
Of

SPEAKER_02 (01:27:08):
course, sure.

SPEAKER_01 (01:27:10):
I love Paul H.
Dunne.
First year I was in church.
Paul H.
Dunne, I had every one of hisrecordings and everything.
And I love the things that hewas saying.
I do remember thinking, doesthis guy want a general
authority?
You know, I think that might bea bit far-fetched, actually,

(01:27:32):
some of this stuff.
But he is.
I mean, I think the one thingthat he said, I remember once
when he said he'd gone to, onthe beach.
And he says, you know, you hadto carry a weapon above the
head, above your head, becauseif that weapon got wet, it'd
backfire on you and kill you.
And I thought, I've been asoldier.
And I thought, no, it wouldn't.

(01:27:54):
No, it wouldn't.
Just as if that muzzle got wet,that wouldn't be enough to make
it, you know, misfire and stuff.
It wouldn't be enough.
But He was saying it, so I tookit in.
But I did think a lot about PaulH.
Dunne.
And I met him.
He came to our mission when Iwas serving.

(01:28:14):
And I'll tell you my firstreaction to Paul H.
Dunne when I saw him.
Whoa, didn't think you lookedlike that, mate.
Because I like the churchpublicity photographs.
He's like, I suppose he'd be inhis 40s or something.
And he was an old man.
You know, he was a...
you know, kind of bent over.
And he looked to me anyway likean old man.

(01:28:37):
I suppose I look like that nowto young people.
But he looked like an old man.
But then all this came about,and none of it were true.
None of his war stories weretrue.
None of his baseball storieswere true.
Not one.
And ironically, it was Boyd K.
Packer, his nephew, who had doneall this research.

(01:29:04):
But K.
Packer's another interestingone.
I never liked that one.
But Paul H.
Dunne, I loved him.
And when he fell from grace, itwas kind of devastating in a lot
of ways.
And he once said, I can rememberhim bearing a testimony, and he
said, you know, if ever youdoubt young people, know this,
there are some of us that knowgrace.

(01:29:28):
And he left it at that.
And again, immediately youthink, wow, he's seen him.
Polish, don't see him.
What was the second part of yourquestion?

SPEAKER_03 (01:29:39):
Where are you now with your faith?

SPEAKER_01 (01:29:42):
Where am I now?
I'm an atheist.
I remember after this experiencewhere I decided the church
wasn't true anymore.
And I remember the...
The church did have a good pointin that, you know, really, I
think there are only twoChristian churches that can have

(01:30:04):
even a remote claim on being thetrue church.
One's the Roman Catholic Churchwho claim an apostolic
succession from Peter to thepresent day.
And the other is the MormonChurch who say there was a need
for a restoration because thechurch had fell into apostasy.

(01:30:24):
And so the church had to berestored.
and everything that went alongwith it, the priesthood and
stuff, it had to be restored.
And so to me, there were only,and I remember thinking, well,
if I don't believe Mormonismstill, and I fell out with
Catholicism a long time ago,where does that leave me?
You know, because I stillbelieved in God.
But the more I sort of looked atit and things like that, and I

(01:30:46):
can remember thinking one night,I don't know why it just came to
me.
And I remember thinking, youknow, if there is a God, he's an
insecure narcissist.
in constant need of reassuranceand approbation.
I thought, you know, I'm betterthan that.
And all this thing gearedaround, you know, revering God,

(01:31:08):
praising God in all things,acknowledging God's hand in all
things and all that.
You know, I think, well, I'm ahuman being.
I don't need that.
So I just came to the conclusionthat there wasn't a God.
There isn't a God.
And I'm happy for my mother, whoI don't really know very well,

(01:31:31):
but she's a Christian that Ithink I could like to be.
In as much as she believes inGod, she believes she's going to
see her parents again, shebelieves she's going to see her
brothers and that who've died.
She's going to see her husbandagain.

(01:31:52):
They're going to be reunited.
And I'm sure my mother says herprayers on her night.
I know she does.
She says her prayers on hernight.
I'm sure she feels good aboutthat.
And she thinks that that's it.
She's not affiliated to anychurch.
She goes out, you know, typicalweddings, baptisms, and
funerals, and feels no need toaffiliate herself religiously

(01:32:13):
with any particulardenomination.
But...
She believes in God and shethinks that, you know, there's
an afterlife.
And I think that's a cool way tobelieve in God in some respects.
Mormonism is a very high demandreligion.
Some religions are moredemanding than others, but
Mormonism is way up there in thedemands that it makes of its
members.

(01:32:34):
And I think that, you know, mymother has in many ways the best
of all possible worlds becauseshe believes in an afterlife.
At least she's going to bereunited with her loved ones.
and it doesn't cost youanything.
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (01:32:49):
Jim, as we close here, Lance, Jim, any final
thoughts or comments from you?

SPEAKER_02 (01:32:54):
Well, I'm trying to figure out how to frame this
because, Lance, your story, youare clearly a man of integrity
and of intellectual integrityand Your story breaks my heart

(01:33:15):
to some degree because it's astory that I've heard many times
from many people who...
And I'm just trying to figureout...
Because from my point of view,we've said many times on this
podcast, or at least I've saidmany times on this podcast, and

(01:33:35):
I've written a book that I don'tknow how to get published on
this subject, but I believe...
that the false doctrine ofprophetic infallibility is at
the root of so muchdisaffection.
And it's, I think, the greatestproblem in the church today and

(01:33:57):
ever, really, because all of thethings that you were taught are
things that I was taught, thingsthat Ian was taught.
This whole idea that we expectour prophets to be essentially
perfect, but not even perfect.
It's not even about likethey're, because whenever we

(01:34:19):
start talking about it in thatway, we start talking about
prophetic weakness and peoplestart saying, well, no, prophets
aren't perfect.
They can forget your birthday.
They can do things that arewrong.
But I'm talking about notnecessarily even infallibility,
but inerrancy, the idea that aprophet can never forget preach

(01:34:40):
something that is wrong.
The prophet can never...
It flies in the face of our coredoctrines, our core doctrines of
agency.
When you start to recognizethere are parts of our theology
that I think allow for propheticerror in a way that other

(01:35:02):
Christian theologies do not.
When we recognize that we cameto this earth for the sole
purpose of making mistakes andlearning from them.
And we recognize that on anindividual level, but we somehow
expect the institution to bedifferent.
That the institution is gonna beperfect and they're not gonna

(01:35:25):
make mistakes and they're notgonna do anything wrong, but the
individuals in that institutionare all imperfect and they're
gonna make mistakes.
That just doesn't work.
I just think the church would beso much healthier And we
wouldn't lose the Lance Jacksonsso easily in seven minutes,

(01:35:45):
particularly, if we were to notjust acknowledge the reality
that the church is capable oferror, but embrace that reality
and say, this is what the churchis supposed to be.
We are supposed to learntogether from our collective
mistakes, as well as ourindividual mistakes.

(01:36:07):
I just think that would allowfor so much more so that when
you encounter very real problemsin church history and doctrine,
you would be able to do so in aframework where, well, that's to
be expected.
Because at no point does GordonB.
Hinckley, when he's sitting infront of Mike Wallace, at no

(01:36:29):
point is his agency extractedfrom him, and he can still say
something that's wrong.
I mean, I think Gordon B.
Hinckley was probably veryuncomfortable with the idea of
deification and just so was kindof just trying to play it down.
But that doesn't mean thatthat's not something we believe
or something we teach.

(01:36:50):
It just means that Gordon B.
Hinckley, when he was sitting infront of Mike Wallace, had a
human moment where he was tryingvery hard not to be embarrassed.

UNKNOWN (01:37:00):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (01:37:00):
I'm not trying to argue or trying to correct you
or trying to say that any ofyour experiences here are
illegitimate.
In fact, quite the opposite.
I think your experience here issomething that many, many people
have had and continue to have.
And I think that the number ofthem is actually accelerating.

(01:37:25):
As time goes on, because as theinternet makes information more
and more available, it becomeseasier and easier for people to
see the mistakes the church hasmade over time.
And more and more difficult forthe church to sweep those under
the rug.
And it just breaks my heart thatwe can't, as an institution,

(01:37:50):
correct ourselves in a way thatwe would be able to hold on to
the Lance Jacksons of the world.
Because I think the church isimmeasurably poorer for not
having you as a member.
I think you are an outstandinghuman being.
I think your insights areextraordinarily valuable.
And it just makes me very, verysad that the church doesn't have

(01:38:15):
a place for you.
Because I would love, I'mgrateful for this opportunity to
have gotten to know you at leastto a small degree here.
And I just think if the churchgoing forward, we need to find a
way not just to acknowledge theerrors that we've made and the

(01:38:38):
missteps that we've made, butembrace them, take
responsibility for them, becausethat's what we teach people to
do on an individual level.
That's what repentance is.
And I think thatinstitutionally, we need to
mimic what we teach to peopleindividually.
Absolutely.
I don't know if that's long ortoo preachy, but I, I mean, and

(01:38:58):
so I just want to say, I'm very,very grateful for you sharing
all of these experiences withus.
Uh, I am, I'm tremendouslyimpressed, uh, with your life
story, both professionally andpersonally.
And I'm grateful that you havespent this time with us to be
able to share that with ustoday.

SPEAKER_01 (01:39:16):
Well, thank you, Jim.
And that's, that's very, verygracious of you to say those
things.
Um, I, um, I, Well, yeah, it is.
It's very graceful of you, and Iappreciate your words.
I think there are two things,and I hope you take this in the

(01:39:37):
spirit in which I'm giving it.
The idea that a prophet doesn'talways speak as a prophet, and I
get that.
Sometimes they speak as a man.
I think it's cowardly at best toput the onus...
on an individual member todecide which is which.

(01:39:57):
I think that's my first point.
And I think this idea from BoykK.
Packer, where history is notalways useful.
I just find that the mostincredulous statement I've ever
heard in my life of a member,senior member of an institution

(01:40:17):
that proclaims to speak for Godhere on earth.
History is not always useful.
It's sinister as far as I'mconcerned.

SPEAKER_02 (01:40:26):
Well, what he said was it wasn't just history.
He said some things that aretrue are not very useful.

SPEAKER_01 (01:40:32):
Well, yeah, and that's even worse.
And that's even worse, Jim.
Some things that are true arenot always useful.
The truth ought to be able tostand on its own merit.
And if the truth isuncomfortable, so what?
The truth is never anything butuseful because it gives us the

(01:40:57):
whole scenario of possibilities,really.
But it says, you know, this isthe truth.
This is the absolute truth.
My wife is sat eating herevening meal.
That's the truth.
And no matter which way I wantto spin that or put something,
that might not be usefulparticularly or whatever, but

(01:41:17):
it's true.
And to say that, if I was sathere saying, My wife's here
smoking a spliff.
That would be untrue.
The truth is always useful.
Sorry, I won't say the truth isuseful.
It's necessary.
If we can't face the truth, ifan institution cannot stand up

(01:41:40):
to the scrutiny of truth, thenwherein lies data intervention?

SPEAKER_03 (01:41:48):
Lance, I...
I want to thank you so much fortaking time to be with us today.
I've learned so much from you.
I've known you for a long time.
You're a man of great integrityand a man who is devoted to
truth, to facts, and to beauthentic.

(01:42:08):
And I want to thank you forbeing that person.
You continue to be just awonderful friend and just a
remarkable example.
I want to thank our listenersfor joining us on this episode.
I hope you enjoyed that.
Many things that Lance talkedabout, we can learn a lot from.
So, Lance, thank you, and alsoappreciate this time with you.

(01:42:29):
And, of course, a very specialthank you to our very own Jim
Bennett.
And Jim and I will be joiningyou again soon.
our listeners again on nextweek's podcast, which is another
exciting episode that we've got.
So on behalf of

SPEAKER_01 (01:42:46):
all of our listeners...
Can I just say thank you verymuch.
for your kind words and for yourinvitation and Jim it's been a
privilege to exchange thoughtsand feelings with you so I thank
you for that

SPEAKER_02 (01:43:02):
likewise sir thank you

SPEAKER_03 (01:43:04):
so

SPEAKER_02 (01:43:04):
much

SPEAKER_03 (01:43:04):
Lance thank you and Jim thank you thank you Ian

SPEAKER_02 (01:43:07):
thank you