James Burnham Returns!

With Jim on vacation, Ian welcomes James Burnham back to Inside Out, as he shares some more of his unique perspectives and two new songs!

Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:01):
Hello and welcome to the latest episode of Inside
Out.
My name is Ian Wilkes and I amflying solo.
Normally I'm here with JimBennett, but Jim decided to take

(00:27):
himself and his family toMexico.
And right now, or maybe notright now, but Jim has been
swimming in the warm watersaround Mexico, being chased by,
I don't think he's been chasedby whales, maybe dolphins, but
he's seen some, I think he saw awhale shark.
He posted a picture of a whaleshark.
So Jim, if you're listening tothis, I hope you're safe.

(00:49):
And I hope you were able to getaway from the whale shark.
I think you did.
But I'm here with anextraordinary individual, a good
friend of mine, James Burnham,who's from British Columbia.
James, welcome.
Oh, thank you.
I'm so glad to be back.
You know, I had a really greattime talking to you guys last

(01:11):
time.
So I'm good with just you and metoo, because we are good
friends.
So I'm excited, obviously, wherethis conversation takes us.
Absolutely.
And I'm really excited to haveyou on, James.
And you mentioned earlier, wedid have you on earlier a few, I
don't know, was it two monthsago?
You came on and you shared justa profound experience about your
life, your journey,spirituality, and your

(01:32):
relationship with music.
And so if you haven't heard thatpodcast with James Burnham that
came out, it'll be about eight10 weeks ago, go back into the
Lister podcast and listen to it.
It's an amazing conversation andit helps so many.
We had wonderful comments,wonderful comments about that
conversation with James.
So James, it's a real honor anda privilege to have you on and

(01:56):
Merry Christmas.
And I hope you're having,feeling some peace and enjoyment
over this Christmas time.
Absolutely.
When we're talking about howwe're going to structure this
conversation, I suggested thatperhaps you could play us into
the podcast with one of yoursongs.

(02:16):
For the benefit of ourlisteners, James is an
extraordinary musician.
He writes his own music.
I go listen to him at times atdifferent places, different
clubs up and down around theOkanagan.
He's extremely talented.
And James looks like he's got asong prepared for us as we go
into this podcast.
James, over to you.

(02:37):
So I wrote the song for myyoungest daughter.
I gave it to her for Christmas,so it's the newest song that
I've played for people, and Ihope you like it.
My voice is a little bit roughbecause I've been sick, so I
hope I can hit the notes.
It's got some high parts.
Okay, bear with me.
All right.
It's called Rain Your Sun On Me.

SPEAKER_01 (03:10):
darling are you okay I know I had to go we don't talk
much anymore I want

SPEAKER_00 (03:25):
you to know see you

SPEAKER_01 (03:30):
in the mountains

SPEAKER_00 (03:33):
I feel you in the breeze see you scare.

SPEAKER_01 (03:42):
Please reign your son of me.

SPEAKER_00 (04:21):
darling are you okay you know i had to go miss you
every single day i want you toknow still can see you swimming

(04:43):
at the bottom of the pool

SPEAKER_01 (04:52):
that carry you to school see you in the mountains
feel you in the breeze see

SPEAKER_00 (05:33):
Darling, are you okay?
You know I had to go.
Let's find ourselves a brand newplace where I can let you know.
Still senior Danny boy, justlike I used to do.

(06:00):
Hold you where you're feelingI've been sick the whole night
through

SPEAKER_01 (06:09):
See you in

SPEAKER_00 (06:13):
the

SPEAKER_01 (06:13):
mountains

SPEAKER_00 (06:17):
Feel

SPEAKER_01 (06:22):
me See

SPEAKER_00 (07:03):
that's it james that was amazing thank you so much
and you you wrote that song yeahyeah i wrote i've written a song
for each of my kids yes i wrotean album so i have 10 songs and
four of them are for my kids andthree of them are for my ex and

(07:27):
uh And one of them was the one Ithink I wrote before called Do
They Reach the Sky, which iskind of the part of the whole
album.
It's kind of the beginning of itall.
So, yeah.
And what's the name of thatsong?
That song's called Rain Your Sunon Me.
And how long did it take you towrite?

(07:51):
Oh, that's a good question.
You know, I don't.
It doesn't take me too long towrite a song if I focus on it.
I've realized that it's tiringwork.
I'm not like Ed Sheeran where Icrank out a song in five
minutes.
I can just crank, crank, crank.
I'm like a more traditionalsongwriter, and that song

(08:14):
probably has 30 revisions of it.
So what it originally was andwhat it is now, In fact, the
song originally was a song I waswriting for my father.
He asked me to sing at hisfuneral.
And so I thought I'd try towrite a song for him.
And it was memories with him andme and things like that.

(08:36):
But it wasn't sitting right withme.
A song should sit.
When it's done, for me at least,it sits.
And it wasn't.
And I was just thinking aboutit.
And one day, as I was hiking,you know, because...
I do see my daughter in themountains.
Sorry.
And I see her everywhere, right?

(08:58):
And I was out in the mountainswalking and I was feeling the
breeze.
I was thinking of her and Ithought, that song's for my
girl.
It's not for my dad.
And so I changed the lyrics andthen it just all fell into
place.
But it was like 30 revisions forme to get it.

(09:20):
Yeah.
It's a beautiful song, and Iwant to thank you for sharing it
and playing that for ourlisteners and myself.
Thank you so much.
James, would you just provide,for the benefit of our
listeners, just provide a littlebit of background and history, a
reminder, if you will, inregards to your growing up, your

(09:43):
background in the church.
Yeah.
We went into some detail lasttime on the first podcast with
you.
It was a bit of a whistle-stoptour, if you like, of your
background.
And then if you can, if you leadus into where you are in your
life journey, because you are ina very interesting place right
now.
I won't tell our listeners whereyou are.

(10:03):
I think it's quite extraordinarywhere you are.
But if you could lead us intothat adventure, that journey
that you're embarking on rightnow and what's behind that.
But give us a bit of a reminderin terms of your background in
church and then take us beyondthat to where you are now.
Yeah, I grew up in a very devoutfamily.

(10:23):
My family from both sides arealready stock pioneers.
My great direct descendant, Idon't know what to call him,
grandpa or whatever, JohnProtinus Green converted Brigham
Young.
He married my aunt Rhoda.
And so we We are old stockfamily and then my dad's side,

(10:47):
same thing.
And so I grew up really steepedin the traditions of the church.
I went on a mission, loved itand came back.
And, but you know, due to anumber of reasons, I never truly
felt like I belonged in thechurch.
And eventually I left.

(11:09):
And I think we both had thesame, incident where the
church's stance on blacks in thepriesthood, they released a
document.
It is no longer availableonline, but what they released
at the time when I read it wasconfirmation for me enough to
say, you know what?
This is not the place for me.
And I think what I came torealize, I really wanted to

(11:33):
learn how to lead gracefullybecause my family are devout
members, and I respect themimmensely, and I respect what
the church has done for themimmensely, and the happiness and
kindness that they find withinthe church, I don't deny.
But I think when explaining itto my mom, I think I realized

(11:55):
she has within the church acommunity that sustains and
supports her and makes her feelsafe and accepted and capable of
doing the things she wishes shecould do, and I don't.
That is not my community.
It is not a community that makesme feel that way.
And that doesn't mean it's a badcommunity.

(12:16):
It's just not mine.
You know, I've walked intospaces before I've been in at
companies that people thoughtwere awesome.
And I didn't.
And I left.
I didn't sit there and complain,right?
I attended BYU.
I went Two years as BYU Provo, Iwent for two years and I found

(12:36):
my second year there after mymission, I hated it.
And I remember encountering somany students that hated it
there and thinking, why do youstay if you hate it so much?
And that's what I would say.
Why do you stay if you hate itso much?
Because it's a good place.
It's a good school.
It's a great people.
Why be that person sitting thereand complaining all the time?

(12:58):
And that's how I felt.
And so I stepped away.
And I feel like the benefits andbeauty that the church offers to
my family are still there forthem.
And I am finding my own way tohave the same benefits that I
feel they get.
Wonderful.
Thank you for that reminder.

(13:19):
And so you served a mission, afull-time mission.
Where did you serve?
So I served in Japan, I went toTokyo North.
And it was a profound experiencefor me as a 19 year old boy to
go from a society that is highlyindividualistic, that places the

(13:40):
individual above all in NorthAmerica, that's what we do.
And the success and theentrepreneurship and the
creativity and all the thingsthat come with that, I think are
beautiful.
And there are some realdrawbacks to an individual
mentality.
that I also see.
And Japan opened me to thebenefits of a community-focused

(14:04):
concept and all of the beautythat comes with that.
And it was a profound change forme to see that there could be
such a high level of societythat works so completely
differently than the one I hadbeen exposed to and raised in as
a child.
And in fact, I met a Buddhistmonk on my mission And he

(14:28):
changed my life on my mission.
I often say I was converted onmy mission to Buddhism when I
was attempting to convert a monkto my religion.
And that's kind of what happenedfor me is this idea that we have
our own paths that we take.
And I don't need to make youtake my path.

(14:49):
If you are on a good path, Icelebrate your path.
But it doesn't mean I'm walkingyour path.
You gained a great deal, I cantell, from your mission,
culturally, spiritually.
You had a number of profoundexperiences.
And you're Canadian.

(15:10):
You've lived in America.
You're from Canada.
You lived in the States.
You've obviously traveled.
But you're not in Canada or theUnited States right now, are
you?
No.
Tell our listeners where you areright now and why are you where
you are right now.
Well, You know, I, like manypeople who went through divorce,

(15:32):
you know, I went through adivorce five years ago, and I
don't believe anybody goesthrough divorce easily.
It is hard for everyone, and itis a unique and painful
experience for everyone involvedon both sides.
And for me, it came also becauseI left the church, There was a

(15:56):
lot of fear.
My family was living in Utah,and I would say that it created
a lot of fear around who I wasand how I might try to steal my
children away from the church,which I've never had any
intention of doing.
And so my children wouldn't seeme.
And it caused me a lot ofheartache.

(16:17):
I would say that my mostsignificant challenge in my
life, and I've had several, likeeveryone, has been the loss of
that contact with my kids.
It cut me to the core in a waythat I don't even quite know how
to get words to.
So to deal with it, I startedwriting music and I wrote an
album last year.
I wrote 10 songs.

(16:39):
And when I finished, honestly,Ian, you know how when you're
pursuing something in businessor in your life and you finish
it and you look at it, you thinkyou have that satisfaction.
that deep abiding satisfactionof I've accomplished something.
And in the five years I've beentrying to find that, and I

(17:00):
cannot find it.
But writing that album gave me apeace to my heart and soul that
I have been craving, craving.
And I decided I would pursue itmore.
Along the way, as I was playingthese songs at bars, like you

(17:21):
were saying, I was able tosecure gigs at vocal bars and
wineries and just kind of doingstuff.
It was just fun for me.
I wasn't trying to do anythingwith it.
But I had other musicians comeup to me and ask me where they
could hear my music.
And I haven't recorded anything.
And they're like, this guy says,well, I'm a producer.
I'll produce your songs.

(17:41):
So he's produced five of mysongs and he's getting ready to
get them released comingshortly.
So they'll be available forpeople to listen to, which is
kind of, it's very exciting.
But it was such a gratifyingthing to have a musician.
I had several musicians of highcaliber come to me and say, hey,
we want to play with you.
And so they've helped me producethis music.

(18:03):
And so I wanted to write a newalbum.
And I wrote an album about myloss.
This first album is about myloss, about the things that I...
have struggled with.
One is my loss of my belief inGod.
That was a Mormon belief.
That was a deeply difficultthing to process.
The loss of my children, theloss of my relationship with my

(18:26):
ex and the loss of the life of Iknew it.
There's a few things, right?
I also recovered the memories ofmy childhood abuse and they were
severe.
And that was a loss of innocencefor me and the loss of who I
thought I was.
All of that was encapsulated inthat first album.
So now I'm writing an album ofrebuilding and I'm living in

(18:49):
Hiroshima, Japan to write thisalbum because I think that
Hiroshima is a place that wasutterly destroyed, flattened by
a nuclear weapon.
140,000 people, these are modestestimates, died in the first
year from that bomb.

(19:10):
And when we think about this interms, I remember where I stood
in 9-11.
I was playing tennis with afriend at 5 a.m.
in the morning.
I was in California, living inCalifornia.
I was playing tennis beforework.
And all of a sudden, our phonesstarted lighting up.
Went home.
And the devastation that I felt,I personally took that toll in

(19:34):
my heart for the 6,000 peoplethat died in the fall.
the felling of those two towers,will have an impact on the rest
of my life.
And that was 6,000 people.
And when you begin to witnessthe beautiful area that this is,
it is unbelievable to think thatit was once flattened,

(19:59):
destroyed, entirely burned downplace.
It is completely rebuilt.
It is thriving.
It is kind.
There's no hostility toforeigners here.
It's amazing.
I can walk down the streets herewithout any concern that I was
participating in that bombing insome way.

(20:21):
I wasn't, I'm Canadian, but itwould be easy to look at me and
say, hey, there's an Americanguy that had a father that
might've been killing Japanesepeople in the war, right?
That is not the mentality ofthis place.
And so I wanted to write analbum of rebuilding that is full

(20:42):
of forgiveness and full of hopeand full of opportunity.
And I think what better placethan on the shores of the banks
of the rivers that were filledwith bodies from the death and
destruction that was happenedhere.
And it's now filled, the streetsare filled with thriving, happy
people.
And so it's an inspiration to meto be here And to be a part of

(21:05):
this community while I writethese songs.
It's an extraordinary connectionyou make in between your own
experiences.
You know, you've gone throughthe dark night of the soul, so
to speak.
Yeah.
A lot of pain, a lot ofsuffering, a lot of anguish.
You know, the only you canreally understand and

(21:26):
appreciate, you know, thosekinds of experiences and losses,
which are distinct and unique toyou.
You're...
Hiroshima.

(21:56):
Hiroshima, is that how youpronounce it?
Hiroshima.
It's the proper, Hiroshima isthe proper Japanese term.
And it's hard for me to kind ofspeak it in English and not, you
know, so I mess it up, but yeah.
Thank you.
Hiroshima.
Hiroshima.
And so the relationship betweenthe people of Hiroshima who
have, I mean, have they, whenyou're there and you talk to

(22:20):
people and if this comes up, Imean, It's such an extraordinary
history with that city.
The event shaped so many mindsand hearts around the world, not
just in Japan.
Yeah.
Do you get a sense offorgiveness with the people
living there or do they still,or do they hold on to the past?

(22:41):
And I'm asking that also tohighlight the personal
experience that you've gonethrough and that we we all go
through at some point wheresomeone does something to us,
we're hurt, or some eventhappens and we, you know, some
other human action, a decision,and it causes immense hurt and

(23:03):
pain and loss.
And the difficulty we can havein forgiving those who offended
us or trespassed or hurt us.
You know, the Lord's Prayertalks about to give those that
trespass against us, right?
And how difficult that can be,you know, when people have hurt
us and offended us and caused usimmense loss and pain.
Do you get a sense of the peoplein Hiroshima who have been

(23:27):
forgiven, maybe not forgotten,but in the sense of forgiveness?
And do you draw on thatexperience?
You know, you served a missionthere.
You're there right now, right inthis Albert.
You're there on thisextraordinary adventure and
quest to At this stage, if youlike.
I have the people there forgivenwhat happened.

(23:48):
They haven't forgot.
And is that the kind ofinspiration that you draw upon
to help you forgive those who'vecaused you hurt and harm?
You know, what lessons, I guess,can we learn from, you know,
what happened over there inJapan?
And, you know, in regards toforgiving people those who hurt

(24:11):
us or trespass against us.
You've made the connection, andI'm just interested in exploring
that connection a little bitfurther, how it relates to you.
And again, have the people ofthat extraordinary city, have
they come to some sense offorgiveness and acceptance or
not?
I mean, I can't speak foreveryone, but the general

(24:33):
feeling in this city is afeeling a feeling of a city at
peace and an open to the worldforgiveness of what happened to
them.
And they stand as a beacon ofwhat can be if you choose to
forgive.
Because it is a happy, kind,welcoming city.

(24:54):
It is not one that is fearful offoreigners, which by every right
it could be.
It could be one that is hostileand closed off and unfriendly,
but that is not what Iexperience.
And to me, that is the veryessence of what Christ teaches,

(25:16):
right?
It is at play, and the power ofit, to me, is palpable.
And it's the balm I need in mysoul, because I have struggled—
with forgiveness myself.
Not having my children in mylife, I often lay blame at

(25:39):
people's feet for it.
Myself included, blame myself aswell.
But there's lots of blame tocast, right?
And blame demands retributionand justice.
And these are tropes that I seeeverywhere in our world,
justice, retribution.

(26:00):
I want that.
And that is not something thatbrings peace.
That is not something thatbrings healing.
That is not something thatbrings happiness.
There is nothing required forpeace and forgiveness other than
you to allow your heart to letit in.
And when you do, everything ishealed.

(26:24):
The scars on the land, the onlyphysical scar left of the time
of that bomb is this one domethat somehow remarkably remains
standing in the midst of the theit very near the epicenter of
the bomb it's this kind of steelframework of a building and
they've left it in the statethat it was it's astonishing

(26:47):
that it's standing at all andit's a reminder of what happened
not so much for us to hold on tothis idea that We need to hate
those that did it, but toremember that it was done.
And I think there is greatwisdom in that, to know, hey,

(27:08):
I've walked this road.
I have suffered this pain, butlook at me now.
And that's what Hiroshi says,look at me now.
And this is what I was and lookat what we are now.
And it is beautiful, this cityamongst these rivers on the
banks of the ocean.

(27:28):
And it's such a beautiful city.
And so it makes me look at theshattered framework of my own
heart and say, I can rebuild.
Every tree, if you walk into thePeace Park Memorial, every tree
that's there, had to be plantedafter the bomb was dropped

(27:48):
because it was utterlyflattened.
And so Japan donated trees.
And there's these beautiful,beautiful acreages of trees full
of birds singing.
And they're all different kindsof trees.
And you would never believe thatthey were only planted sometime
after 1946.
You would believe that they'vebeen there forever.

(28:11):
And they haven't.
But that is what I want to makemy heart, is that peaceful,
beautiful place that you wouldthink has never been scarred,
though it has been, aseveryone's has been.
And that only comes fromforgiveness.
It only comes from that.

(28:31):
And peace, you know, the Lord'sprayer is real.
You know, Father, forgive them.
Or like it says, I used to knowthat prayer.
It goes...
I can't access it right now.
But, yeah.

(28:53):
Father, forgive.
Anyway, you know the lyric.
Can you say it for me?
I can't remember all the words.
I used to know it off by heart.
Yeah, our Father, who art inheaven, hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come, thy will bedone on earth as it is in
heaven.
Give us this day our dailybread.
Anyway.

(29:18):
You're doing well.
You're doing well.
Give us this day our dailybread.
I should look it up.
Yeah, anyway.
I'm wasting time talking aboutit, but the idea of forgiving,
of us, it is required toforgive.
God says, of you, it is requiredto forgive all, and I will
forgive who I choose to forgive.
The reality is, is God's goingto forgive you.

(29:42):
I believe that.
And you must forgive, and youmust forgive yourself.
Start with yourself.
Forgive first for yourself.
And I truly believe the depthsof, to which you want to receive
forgiveness, you must offerfirst.
And only in the offering of thatforgiveness can you find the

(30:04):
depths of that forgiveness thatyou need.
And I need great depths offorgiveness for the things that
I've done, because I've donethings that are so wrong, and I
am craving that forgiveness,right?
And so I offer it as best I can.
And that's what I see here.

(30:24):
Sorry.
I see it.
I was thinking I went to thememorial.
I was at Pearl Harbor.
I lived in Hawaii.
I did my undergrad in Hawaii.
And Pearl Harbor Memorial isbeautiful and well done.
And there's anger there.
They are angry still at theJapanese for bombing them,
right?

(30:45):
And understandably, I get it.
It was an unprovoked attack.
They didn't deserve it.
It was a peaceful, beautifulday, and they got attacked and
started a war.
And the retribution for that wastwo nuclear weapons that
destroyed not army bases, butcivilians.

(31:07):
In every other war, if Americahad lost, this would be called a
war atrocity.
No question.
There is absolutely no...
No excuse for destroying thatmany civilians in the way that
they were destroyed.
It is horrific.
And the portrayal of it inJapan, there's no anger.

(31:30):
There's no blame.
They acknowledge they startedthe war.
They talk about the inhumanityof the bomb.
They do not talk about theinhumanity of people, ever.
There's no inhumanity of peoplebecause humans cannot be
inhumane in...
in and of themselves.

(31:50):
They can act in a way that seemsinhumane, but we are human.
And so we are always going tohave humanity between us.
That's how God sees us.
No matter how far you fall, youare human and loved and worthy
and valuable.
And so that starting point givesyou such a place of healing.

(32:11):
And they show these individualstories and then you see the
tattered clothing of what thechildren were wearing and the
burnt tattered clothing andremains of you know artifacts
and they tell the stories ofpulling bodies out of the river
that were just packing the riverwith dead because they fled into

(32:34):
the rivers to get away from thefires that were remaining and
honestly I just wept I wept thismemorial and I wept because um
There was no anger there.
It moved past the anger, wentright to the core issue, which
is it was a sad, tragic,horrifying experience that

(32:57):
humans would do this to otherhumans.
Just utterly tragic.
And to me, that correlation isso profound in my own healing
because it is the essence offorgiveness.
It is the essence of what Christoffers in his atonement.
And it is the one and only wayto peace.
And our one blessing from theHoly Ghost that we're offered,

(33:18):
the one guarantee that we'reoffered is peace.
Peace, nothing else.
You're not promised to beprotected, but you are promised
peace.
And that is what I want.
I want peace.
I can't begin to imagine whatthose nuclear events were like

(33:40):
in Japan.
Nagasaki, if I pronounced itright, Hiroshima.

UNKNOWN (33:44):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (33:45):
I can't imagine what those individuals went through
or experienced.
The horror of war.
We're seeing that play out onour TVs.
We're not on the front line inUkraine or Russia.
We're not on the front lines inSyria or Iran or Israel or
Yemen.
We're seeing significantconflict unfold, escalate around

(34:09):
the world.
Lives are destroyed and ruined.
I cannot imagine.
I've not lived through a war.
I can't imagine, begin toimagine what that was like.
I know my family growing up inEngland, you know, my mother
and, you know, my uncles andtheir family lived through the
war, had extraordinary stories.

(34:30):
You know, a family who losttheir life in the Second World
War and in the First World War,you know, in England.
So I just can't begin to imaginewhat that is like.
And You know, as I listen toyou, I'm reminded of the
extraordinary and awfulinhumanity that man, you know,

(34:53):
the capacity and the depth, thebreadth of inhuman behavior
towards another, you know, totake a life and to destroy a
life.
And not just on an individuallevel, but on a whole scale
level, like the events thatyou're describing there in

(35:16):
Japan.
You know, thousands ofthousands, tens of thousands of
lives.
I can't, again, begin tounderstand or imagine the
inhumanity that exists betweenhumans.
And at the same, you know, inthe same breath, I'm astonished

(35:41):
And in awe at the capacity ofthe human spirit to love and to
forgive, we do terrible thingsto each other for all different
so-called causes and reasons,etc.
Some perhaps justified, othersperhaps not.
That's another conversation.

(36:01):
And then there are people outthere who have got this
extraordinary capacity to loveand to forgive no matter what.
And that's the other end of thespectrum.
I can't imagine what that islike, that Christlike
forgiveness and love, which I'mnot there.
I'm probably somewhere in themiddle.

(36:23):
you know, hopefully towards the,you know, the better side of
that, maybe not in the middle,but towards the better side of
that.
I can't imagine taking anyone'slife or wanting to take anyone's
life, you know, to cause hurt orpain.
I know, you know, we have todefend ourselves, defend, you
know, the Book of Mormon talksabout defending our liberty and
our freedom of families.

(36:44):
And I would do that if pushcomes to shove and I felt that
my safety, my family and I wasat risk.
Of course, we would fight forthose freedoms which we value.
And at the same time, I can'timagine what that experience is,
having to go to war and to fightand all that death and

(37:06):
destruction.
But you've, in all of yourexperience, your journey, you
have figured out a way, whichsome do, maybe not many, of how
to forgive.
And, you know, you representthat percentage of humans who
are able to forgive becauseyou've learned that we only

(37:28):
experience peace andcompleteness and I guess find
ourselves, are the true measureof ourselves when we demonstrate
that extraordinary capacity toforgive.
And there's not one soul on theplanet that hasn't been hurt or
injured in some way.

(37:48):
And we all react and respond indifferent ways.
I think the challenge in life iswhen bad things happen to us,
either from our own choices thatwe make, probably sometimes we
might bring that on ourselvesand often we don't.
People's decisions impact us inprofound ways and can cause a
lot of pain and hurt.
I guess the challenge is how dowe react to that?

(38:09):
How do we respond to that?
We can respond with anger andhate and bitterness sometimes.
And I've seen people, James,where their loathing and their
anger is so strong, it'sdiminished their countenance.
They are consumed by this hate.
I've met people, sadly, whoallow hate and anger and

(38:34):
bitterness to consume and takeover their lives.
And they're very unhappy people,very sad and miserable people.
And then there are those whohave gone through similar times,
even worse experiences at times,and they've got this capacity to
love and to forgive.
And I think, you know, it soundslike you've gone through this

(38:55):
journey then, this experienceyourself, where you've learned
through your trials andtribulations, this extraordinary
capacity to maybe not forget.
I think it's harder to forget,but to forgive yourself.
And what's the secret behindthat, do you think?
How do you get to that point,that strength where you're just

(39:17):
able to forgive?
I don't fully understand it.
I'm not there, I think.
And I've got my own journey totravel, as we all do.
But what's the secret, ifthere's any secret?
What's the answer?
How do you get to that state ofmind where you're able to
forgive and move on?

(39:38):
And then re, you know, likeyou're doing right now, you're
rediscovering yourself and youuse the word, um, rebuilding,
you know, your albums aroundrebuilding yourself.
What's that, you know, what arethose, um, uh, methods, those
ideas that get you to where youare in your, in your heart and
in your mind, if they exist?

(39:58):
I think that, uh, well, I knowthat there are specific methods
cause I, so I researched it.
I spent the last, uh, So Ispent, as you know, the last
year with my father.
He still has not passed, but heis at this point awake maybe 10,
15 minutes a day and justdoesn't know how to die.

(40:22):
But he's in a care facility now.
I was home taking care of himwhile we could bring him home
and interacting with him.
And we talked a lot aboutforgiveness and the importance
of it.
And I began to look into itbecause he kept telling me,
forgive, son, forgive.
And ironically, he looked at meand he said that he had forgiven

(40:45):
me for everything that I haddone.
And I was like, thank you.
I'm grateful for that.
I'm grateful to receiveforgiveness.
Now, you could choose to beoffended.
Well, why do you have to forgiveme?
That's one tactic to go.
But for me...
I am someone seekingforgiveness.
And so if you say you want toforgive me, I openly accept it.

(41:06):
Thank you, please.
Right?
And so learning to acceptforgiveness, I think first comes
with resolving within yourselfand loving yourself.
You will never, until you trulylove and accept who you are and
forgive yourself all yourshortcomings, you're not going

(41:29):
to be able to offer that tosomeone else.
You may claim you want to, but Iremember my young son, he's so
much like me, my boy.
And he would do these thingsthat just would irritate the
crap out of me because they werethe very things that I didn't

(41:49):
like about myself.
I truly did not like thesethings about myself.
And so I wanted to shame themout of him.
Right.
That was the way my instinct wasgeared.
And I learned very quicklythat's not how I want to treat
my boy.
I want him to feel loved.
And I had to turn into myselfand accept my shortcomings, my

(42:15):
capacity to forget a schedule,my ability to leave a house six
times, forget my keys, forgetmy, you know, all these things.
ADHD things that I have withinmy brain that are the
limitations, the limiting sideof my brain.
I had to learn to love andaccept.
And in doing that, I found greathumor in my son.

(42:38):
No longer did I find himirritating, right?
And so learning to balance thescales, there are things, right?
I mean, my abuse and my abuser,um, I have been able to balance
that.
I don't carry hatred or angertoward that man.
He was a 16-year-old boy when hewas abusing me.

(43:00):
And he clearly had been treatedworse by his own parents.
You know, I was so fortunate.
I did not have parents do thethings to me that he did to me.
My parents loved me.
And this boy, his father didthings that he did had done to

(43:22):
me.
And I can imagine my own fatherdoing that to me.
It's staggering to think that aman would treat his child in
that way, right?
And now if I just fall inforgiveness for this boy, well,
that neglects the fact that healso made a choice.

(43:43):
I never did any of that stuff toanyone else, you know?
And so, that negates his ownpower to have chosen a different
path.
So I have to also say thesethings were bad.
I accept that they were bad.
I know the balance and theregister of what was bad.

(44:06):
I also know the balancer and theregister of what was good with
this guy.
There was a piece of me thatloved him because of the things
that we did together.
As a young boy, I admired him,right?
And balancing that scale andrecognizing the good and the bad
together opens the path toforgiveness.

(44:29):
But we often fall into eitherbedevilment or enshrinement.
We turn that person into anabsolute horrible person, right?
Say if you're in a divorce,everything about your spouse,
all you can ever remember now isthe bad.
You have not balanced yourscale.
You must remember the good.
There was good there.

(44:50):
And only upon remembering thegood and recognizing the bad can
you then say, I offer myforgiveness and truly give it
and find it.
And otherwise, you're out ofbalance.
You're either looking forretribution or ignoring the need
for it or something like that.
And there's actually books youcan get.

(45:12):
I've read several of them.
And they'll take you through aprocess that will allow you to
ferret out all the things thatyou need to.
It takes work.
And I would say much offorgiveness heals grief.
So if you've lost something youlove, look to forgive.

(45:33):
That is their path to gettingover it.
And it's profound.
It'll free you.
It'll free you up so you can dosomething new.
The value of what you're sayingis significant.
We can learn that.
You talk about capacity toforgive others, and then you

(45:55):
talked about the ability or theneed to forgive oneself.
And sometimes the second one canbe harder than the other.
And I have no answers.
You've certainly got moreinsights in that than I have,
being able to forgive oneself.
And I think that's one of thechallenges that we face We all
experience at times, how do weforgive oneself?

(46:18):
Because I think that affects ourself-esteem, our self-worth, how
we see ourselves, affects ourcountenance, our spirits.
It affects us in profound waysif we can't forgive oneself.
And I don't have any answers orsolutions how we can do that.
You've moved to Hiroshima.

(46:41):
You're on this extraordinaryjourney.
adventure, this quest.
You're writing, producing analbum.
You've gone to Hiroshima, Japanto reconnect with yourself,
renew, restore yourself.
Japan has profound experience, aspiritual experience and history
for you.

(47:02):
You connect with the culture.
What are you, you know, thenext, this next chapter in your
life while you're over there,what are you hoping to get from
it?
Aside from the album andwriting, what are you hoping to
get from it?
And also, could you speak toyour relationship, your

(47:23):
spiritual relationship with themusic?
Yeah, I think, honestly, I thinkthat that is really what I'm
trying to reconnect with is theway through which I can
appreciate and love the God thatI was raised to believe in.

(47:44):
I, you know, there's thatparable where a man are given
talents and one goes out, youknow, he's given four talents
and he goes out and he worksreally hard and multiplies those
four talents, gets eight.
Another one is given twotalents, goes out, multiplies,

(48:06):
comes back with four talents.
One's given one.
Out of fear of losing that one,That person buries that talent
and hides.
And when they come to the Lord,they show their talents.
The Lord says, what did you dowith yours?
I buried it.
And the Lord takes that talentaway.
Right?

(48:26):
And I don't think that God'sgoing to take any of your
talents away.
I don't believe that.
But the idea is that if youdon't use your talent, you will
lose it.
It's just the nature of notusing it.
You're going to lose thattalent.
And there's a tragedy in that.
And we often feel like ourtalents, I know for me, I

(48:50):
compare my capacity.
I have a very musical family.
I have sisters, two of mysisters that are living in
Vernon.
When they adjudicated for theRoyal Conservatory professional
music performance degrees thatthey got, they both received the
highest score in Canada, right?
They're incredible singers,incredible.

(49:13):
They're trained.
They have knowledge.
I don't read any musical notes.
I can't read a note.
I have no training.
I play guitar really like ahack.
I know some chords.
I'm not a good guitar player.
So when I start in thecomparison world, I compare

(49:35):
myself to the professionals thatI know and the people out there
that I admire.
I am an utter hack.
But I love music.
I love it.
And it heals me.
And writing is something that Ireally love.
But I struggle to write becauseI have dyslexia.

(49:57):
And so it's hard for me to getwhat's in here on a paper.
It never seems to match for me.
So I do multiple revisions of asong before it actually is some
semblance of what is in my head.
down to the paper because itdon't transfer well.
It's a lot of work.

(50:17):
And when it's all said and done,it's not even close to as good
as what I think the people Iadmire could produce.
But it's what I got.
It's the very best that I have.
And the doing of it, it makes mefeel like God sees me.

(50:40):
Right?
Because I remember practicing mysongs as I spent the summer.
I would go every Friday at about2 o'clock and sit at the beach.
I'd find an isolated spotsomewhere.
It's so busy now.
It's not like when I was a kid.
No matter where I went, therewas going to be some people who
would pass.
And I had so many people come upto me and thank me for singing.

(51:03):
I had people stop on the lake.
I had boats that would line upand stop and then applaud.
When I left, and I would belike, oh, there's people
appreciating what I'm doing.
And I could be embarrassedbecause of my lack of skill,
because I can't read a note,because I'm untrained.

(51:24):
And I could hide.
Or I could do what I'm doing andjust go for it and have fun with
it and see where it takes me andlet God fill in the rest, right?
And that...
That is the adventure of life.
And I am seeking life.

(51:45):
And life is not a place lived inhiding and duty and retribution
and drudgery.
Life is a risk.
It is a risk with every breathyou take.
You have no idea if this is yourlast.
You just don't.
So when we start to live with...

(52:07):
this idea of i have some stuff iwant to do it um i'm gonna just
i wrote this i wrote the songtoday it's been brewing in my
mind and uh uh the lyrics i sayuh i've been waiting here for

(52:33):
five long years having thingshoping things could be the same.
And these five long years havemade it clear it's time for me
to change.
I've been hiding from somedreams that have been thundering
in my mind.
And that is what's been going onmy whole life.

(52:56):
I've had dreams of writing musicand doing what I'm doing.
I'm actually writing a book,too.
that I've had that I've beenputting on the back burner
forever.
And it thunders in my mind allthe time.
And you know why I don't do it?
There's no money in it.
There's no money in it, Ian.

(53:17):
I have to make money.
That's what everybody tells me.
I have to make money.
Well, I don't actually have tomake money.
I mean, I have to make enough tolive, right?
But You and I know what I'mtalking about when I'm saying
money.
I've been in business.
I got my MBA.
I have made good money.

(53:37):
I've worked as a leadershipdevelopment coach in private
equity and in oil and gas, and Ihave made good money, what
people call good money.
And as much as I enjoyed it, itwas not what I wanted the most.
I'm doing that now.

(53:57):
And I have no idea whether it'llbring me a penny at all.
And I don't care.
I truly don't care.
Because what it brings me isthis sense of satisfaction that
is peace, is the essence ofpeace.
I'm pursuing in a dream.
It's terrifying.
It's adventurous.

(54:18):
It's crazy, right?
People think it's crazy.
They say it to me.
If you're not telling me thatI'm crazy, I'm not doing
anything worthwhile.
That's how I see it.
And so, yeah, what I'm doing,it's crazy.
It's on the edge.
I don't care what you call it.
There's going to be people thattell me I'm irresponsible,

(54:40):
right?
But you look at anybody that hasdone anything of value.
There are naysayers that tellyou don't do it.
There are people that tell youyou're crazy.
There are people that tell youyou shouldn't be doing this.
You should be doing that.
You've got to cut past all thatnoise.
Go to the rumbling in your brainthat's screaming at you to do

(55:01):
the thing that you want.
Some people do that naturally.
Many of us don't.
Many of us do not.
And so I am trying to hone in onthat because I think that's
where God speaks.
God speaks in those rumblings inyour mind.
As I listen to you, I feel...

(55:22):
and I'm not just saying this asa fabricated response, but I
feel inspired.
When I listen to you and yourstory, your experience, your
message is powerful.
We get this one life, right?
Hopefully we can live with, wecould be authentic.

(55:46):
We could be ourselves.
We have a spirit within us.
We have a level of agency, somelevel of freedom, hopefully some
level of income where we canlive and do some of the basic
things that we want to do.
You know, so many of us arestuck in the rut or not being
the person that we feel we wantto be or need to be inside.

(56:09):
We're following some of thisjourney or some of the path or
being dictated to or told tolive a certain way.
And I can understand there arecertain things Obviously,
there's some importantresponsibilities to follow, you
know, children and bills and,you know, you can't escape the
need to, you know, they need toearn an income.
You know, we have to live andeat and live in accommodation,

(56:32):
et cetera.
And it's so easy to, I've seenso many friends that I know who
have allowed work or thatcompletely take over the lives
of And they're not happy.
They're not being themselves.
They're not following thedreams.
And before they know it, I mean,people my age, I'm in my 50s,

(56:55):
people I grew up with who sadlyare not with us anymore.
And there are people gettingolder.
And are we putting off thosedreams, those adventures, those
journeys that we need to, youknow, our spirit, cries out for
and it's extraordinary thatyou're able to you see that you
understand that and you'reresponding to that that call of

(57:18):
the spirit to go on thisextraordinary adventure to find
yourself rediscover yourself yesyou've got to work and pay your
bills and you're obviously ableto do that and you're trying to
be the best self to be authenticand to follow that spirit
because you know like you say atthe end of the day you know We

(57:40):
can just go like that.
We've got a limited amount oftime in it.
And have we fulfilled our dreamsand our goals?
And I know so many friends ofmine who haven't.
They still long for thatopportunity to explore
themselves and go on anadventure.
It won't happen unless you makeit happen.

(58:01):
You've got to make it happen.
And if you get friends andfamily around to support you and
say, hey, you know, I want to dothis.
And will you do it with me?
Or, you know, I need some timeto do this.
Go find myself.
Go discover.
Maybe it's in a place.
Maybe it's some other experiencethat we need to rediscover
ourselves.
And I think so many of us arelost, James.

(58:21):
We haven't found ourselves.
We haven't, we're not beingourselves.
We're not following that, youknow, that adventure.
And I'm not just talking aboutgetting up and moving to a
different country.
We've done that.
We came from the UK to Canada.
That was an adventure and stuff.
That was scary as heck, but wedid it.
I mean, you're now in Japan.

(58:42):
I mean, you know Japan becauseyou served a mission there, so
that makes it a little biteasier.
You know the culture there, etcetera.
But I've learned so much fromyou.
Your message is so powerfularound forgiveness, forgiving
oneself, rediscovering,rebuilding those relationships.
And I have no doubt that thisjourney that you're on will in

(59:04):
some way, at some time, help yourestore your personal
relationships with your kids andbe able to reconnect and restore
those new times, new memories.
And a new period of happinessand peace and joy, I think, will
unfold before you as you're ableto reforce those relationships.

(59:32):
I believe that.
I really believe that.
And I think the journey thatyou're on right now will connect
those two points, thoserelationships.
I really believe that, James.
When you're on and you'resharing your thoughts, I learned
so much, and I know ourlisteners do as well.
We're coming to a close here.
And so I want to thank you againso much for coming on and being

(59:54):
so courageous.
There's great strength in makingourselves vulnerable.
I'm not there.
I'm not strong

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:05):
enough

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:06):
to do that.
And I always amaze how peoplecan open up and talk about their
experiences strengths andweaknesses and successes and
failures.
And there is extraordinarystrength and power when we make
ourselves vulnerable.
I think most people, maybe noteveryone, but I'd say the vast
majority of people, people likeme and so many people that feel

(01:00:26):
like I do are in awe whensomeone like you just talks
about openly theirvulnerability.
It's It's refreshing and it'sstrength.
There's a big part of societythat sees kindness and
vulnerability as a weakness.
But I think most of us insociety, in the world, most of

(01:00:47):
us, not everyone, I think mostof us, hopefully, does see
extraordinary strength and powerwhen we open ourselves up, when
we share our stories,experience, or when we make
ourselves vulnerable, because welearn so much about ourselves
and about our humanity and aboutthe capacity that I think is
inherent in most of us, maybenot all of us, to forgive and to

(01:01:09):
love.
You know, there are those thatthe scriptures talk about who
are past feeling.
And those people exist.
The past feel if they don'tcare, they may never care,
James, right?
They may never get to that pointwhere they can forgive or love
in the way that they could orshould.
But I think most people are notpast feeling.
Most people care.

(01:01:29):
And I think most people are inawe of others who follow their
journey, follow the Spirit, andand have found themselves.
And I think they long for that.
I think a lot of people long forthat.
So I think people will reallyconnect with your experience.
And I can't thank you enough forcoming on and sharing that.
In closing, I'm wondering if...

(01:01:51):
There's a couple of things I'dlike to do if you're okay.
I do want to, I did find theLord's Prayer because I think
that was really, reallyrelevant.
We kind of quoted most of it,but I just want to share it with
you in full because I think it'svery relevant here.
You know, at Christmas time, youknow, different stages of our
life.
You know, we're trying to, youknow, figure life out, learn

(01:02:15):
more about ourselves, findourselves, some of us, forgive,
you know, forgive ourselves,forgive others.
And I think the Lord's Prayer,especially at Christmas time, is
quite unique and timely.
And it goes like this.
It says this,"'Is our Father whoart in heaven, hallowed be thy
name.
Thy kingdom come, thy will bedone on earth as it is in

(01:02:36):
heaven.'" Give us this day ourdaily bread, and forgive us our
trespasses, as we forgive thosewho trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom, thepower, and the glory, forever
and ever.
Amen.
And mind this, thank goodness,there's some incredible messages

(01:02:57):
in there.
I've got one last question foryou for me, and then a request.
And the request is, would youplease out...
at the end of the podcast withanother one of your amazing
songs, if you're okay with that.
Sure.
Your choice.
But one question I've got beforewe get to that stage, and we

(01:03:18):
talked about this earlier,bringing this back to the
church.
You know, we're living inextraordinary times.
I guess you could say that atany point in time, but I think
we're living in an interestinggeopolitically world full of
conflict.
The church has and continues tomake a an extraordinary claim by

(01:03:39):
any standards.
And that is the church claims tobe the only true church upon the
face of the earth.
The only true church.
And that the prophet, PresidentNelson, is the mouthpiece, the
only one authorized andpermitted to speak to God and
speak to the world on behalf ofGod in Jesus Christ.

(01:03:59):
That's an extraordinary claim byany standards.
From your perspective, where youare in your journey, where you
are in your life and where youare physically in Japan right
now, and your experience andperspective in the church and of
the church, what do you see aswhat the role of the church is
or should be or could be in2025, given all the events that

(01:04:24):
are happening in the world andgiven what I said earlier, that
the prophet, Prince Nelson,speaks to the world, not just to
the members, on behalf of Godand Jesus Christ as the only
true church of Jesus Christ,what do you think the message
should be or the directionshould be from the church?
And what's the role of thechurch in improving the world in

(01:04:45):
2025 and beyond?
If you could provide anyperspective on that, we'll be
great.
Yeah, I mean, I think...
I think...
If the church...
wants to pursue a christ-likemessage there is one and true

(01:05:07):
only message from christ whichis when he was asked what the
most important commandment ofgod was he said to love the lord
thy god with all thy heart mightmind and strength and the second
is like unto it to love thyneighbor as thyself and that is
the essence of all of it andwhat is embedded within that If

(01:05:31):
you're going to love God withall your heart and love your
neighbor like you do yourself,start to forgive yourself, start
to forgive your neighbor.
Forgiveness is so essential.
These wars I look at, right?
I understand that thePalestinians and the Jews have

(01:05:54):
been fighting each other forgenerations.
I get it.
The Middle East and the Jewishpeople, they have a history of
hatred.
I understand that.
I am not a part of that history.
It is easy for me to look onthem and say, forgive each
other.
But I don't have generations ofpain and suffering and killing

(01:06:16):
that have gone on.
But I do know there is nojustice or retribution that will
cover the pain that they want tocover.
The only thing that will coverit is forgiveness.
The only thing that will coverit is love.
And if you will take that aswell into your own personal life

(01:06:37):
and you look into the spaces inyour soul that are the most
tormented and troubled, love andforgiveness are the one things.
I don't care about any of theother doctor.
All of it hangs on this.
All of it.
love and forgiveness of eachother that is it what a

(01:07:02):
wonderful wonderful response anduh what a wonderful feeling that
we've we've had you and italking uh this evening um on
this wonderful boxing day jamesyou're a wonderful man you you
you you're the best of Any manout there, you're not perfect.
I'm not saying you're perfect.
None of us are.

(01:07:23):
I'm not saying that.
But you have a spiritual depthto you, which is extraordinary.
And I'm so grateful because itwill help so many.
You won't know.
We don't know to the extent ofour lives and how the impact and
influence of this are what yousay.
But I know that thisconversation will help so many
at this time.

(01:07:44):
feel hopefully more love andhopefully a sense of and a
desire to forgive.
So thank you so much.
Could we close and would youkindly sing us one of your
wonderful songs as we close ourconversation this evening?
I'll sing this song.
I wrote it in 1999 at Christmastime.

(01:08:09):
I was honestly on the verge.
I was turning 30.
Fresh out of grad school,everybody thought my life was
perfect and I was ready to endit all because I was so
depressed.
And this song is called Do TheyReach the Sky?
And I think about it every year.
I just was thinking about it theother day.
I think about it every year atthis time of year because I

(01:08:31):
reflect on the fact of where Iam and where I was.
And, you know, By all accounts,if you were to compare my life
at age of 30 with what I had andwhere I was living, what I was
doing to where I sit right nowin my tiny little place in
Japan, making no money, youknow, just trying to get through

(01:08:53):
the day, you would say, man,this guy should be depressed.
And I'm not depressed.
I'm happy.
And I like that reflection.
I like to look.
at the difference between thosetwo.
But if you are someone that isstruggling and wondering if your
prayers reach the sky, I wouldsay to you, they do, and find a

(01:09:15):
friend that can remind you thatGod is here.
Because God meets us throughpeople like you, Ian, through
our friends, right?
That's how we get to see God.
And so that's, this song is tome.

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:30):
Stare in the mirror and the face that appears makes
you feel real low.
The

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:39):
day has begun.
There's a lot to be done.
Gonna take it slow.
Smile on the job and affirm andshake people.
Say you're great.
Sit on the lawn.

(01:10:00):
Watching the fall until it getsreal late When you say your
prayers do they reach the sky Or

SPEAKER_01 (01:10:18):
do they just sink to the ground

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:27):
When you're lying in bed, do you dream about life?
Does dreaming about life justbring you down?
Fork out the door to see a brandnew show.

(01:10:48):
You buy that big popcorn.

SPEAKER_01 (01:10:50):
Eat it alone.
Then you go home and rent avideo.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:02):
There's a knock at the door, but you stay way high.
You know your

SPEAKER_01 (01:11:08):
rent is late.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:12):
Landlord says one more day in your ears, you'll be
on the street.
When you say your prayers, dothey reach the sky?
Or

SPEAKER_01 (01:11:31):
do they just sink to the

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:34):
ground?
When you lie in bed, do youdream about life?

SPEAKER_01 (01:11:49):
Is dreamin' bout life just bringin' you down

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:57):
When you were young You set big goals and they
sounded great Now you holdin'with none of them down It's a
bit too late You talk of thepast Sounds like a blast, but

(01:12:19):
where's your future gone?
You forgot who you are, chasingfor stars, now you've come
undone.
When you say your prayers, dothey reach the sky?
Or do they just sink?

(01:12:45):
to the ground when you're lyingin bed do you dream about life
dreaming about life just bringyou down that's it James that

(01:13:14):
was wonderful thank you so muchThanks for having me on.
You're just a delightfulindividual.
And on behalf of my family, Iwant to extend our love to you.
You're such a wonderfulindividual.
And I'm so grateful because,say, your message will
strengthen so many in so manyways.

(01:13:35):
So thank you so much.
Folks, we are at the end of thisextraordinary podcast with James
here.
James, thank you again fortaking time to be with us.
We hope our listeners haveenjoyed this week's podcast and
will get as much from it as Iwill.
And until we reconnect and meetwith you again when Jim Bennett

(01:13:57):
is back in a few days, we'llcontinue our recordings and we
look forward to being with Jimagain.
in the next week or so.
But again, James, thank you fortaking the time to be with us.
We love you and appreciate youand wish you the best of
Christmas and the very best for2025 in your life.

(01:14:18):
Thank you so much.
Goodbye.